Tips for getting the bow working better and better!
Tips for getting the bow working better and better!
Gentle people,
Any tips on getting my bowing up to the notch?
Should I do special exercises? Should I just play around with the bow until I start hearing what I want? What should I look for when playing apart from consistent sound? Are there tricks? apart from the clockwise and anti-clockwise stuff? What do I need in Irish music?
Re: Tips for getting the bow working better and better!
Pick out an easy jig to start, take a pencil and put in slurs to make different combonations throughout the song. Eventually with experience you will figure out what feels good to play and sounds noice. Every player has their own bowing combo they like so there are no set rules as to how you shoul bow. If you are serious about it then pick up a good teaching book like Matt Cranitch. Its full of good information.Hope this helps.
Re: Tips for getting the bow working better and better!
Some people say that you should tilt the bow so that more of the 'edge' of the hair is playing on the string. I used to play like that but then I got a new teacher who persuaded me that you get fatter tone if you use the hair 'flat' so that more of the hair is making contact with the string. I'm sure there will be varying opinions about this! YMMV
One exercise I used to do was to play a scale or any multi note pattern (tune!) with a separate bow stroke for each note. The idea is to co-ordinate the bow changing direction precisely with the finger either being lifted or put down. Start slow and build up speed over a few weeks or months. It's very difficult to achieve precision at first, but comes with time.
People worry a lot about bow direction (I used to) but after a while it just sort of comes together and you just do it. I like what Kevin Burke said at a workshop I attended years ago - the bow either goes up, or down - that's all there is to it!
Probably the most important thing of all is to relax. Again Kevin Burke said you should hold the bow as you would an injured bird - loose enough so as not to cause further injury but tight enough so it can't struggle - worked for me! if you are getting pains in your shoulders it might well be caused by tension in the hand/fingers. Spend time as you play analysing where the tension is in your body.
Re: Tips for getting the bow working better and better!
No don't, Rhod. That's exactly what Kevin's bowing looks like...it is magic to watch, the guy seems to create something that suits the tune just by his bowing technique. I don't know how to describe it, but he's the full deal imo when it comes to bowing + tune + feeling package.
Nice obs, rhod.
Re: Tips for getting the bow working better and better!
I actually mentioned to Kevin that I thought it is very important to "feel" the tune while you're playing it (as I thought he does), maybe just to see the answer to such 'esotericism' from a master. His answer? "Just like all music".
Re: Tips for getting the bow working better and better!
Wow, that's a great analogy from Mr. Burke, I'm stealing it but I'll use it with proper footnotes, thanks Rhod.
I would advise using the bow on a tilt, not flat. That's standard for classical training and I feel it gives more control, plus it allows you to you give it ye olde fiddler's crunch with ease.
Try slowing it down and bowing every note, chop chop chop. Often times, the notes in the tune will suggest bowing to you, some notes are easier to slur together than others.
Are you good at slurring notes together? Do you need to practice that? It's amazing how many notes you can get out of one bow stroke. That might be something to mess with to get the feel of slurring, just try to run as many notes together in one bow stroke.
Do you have specific issues? Just not feeling up to snuff in general? If that's the case, it may just take time, Shylock, to realize what such esoteric things as "feeling the tune" with your bow means!
Re: Tips for getting the bow working better and better!
Thanks for the post reference, lazh...interesting reading, and you too swfl fiddler...and maybe it's because I'm a piper, whistle, flute ITM player, but you guys certainly lose me with all the tech-analysis stuff. I don't think I could play a tune by following that sort of tech-rule stuff.
Someone wrote these tunes obviously, in the context of something - probably the situation they were in at the time, the land, what other people wanted to hear, I don't know, but they have an "imagery" or something - dunno really, but to me, it's there. If you can play your choice of instrument half way good, the music will carry the rest. I've had it said to me (and I am privileged to have it said to me) that the tune that I would play on pipes, whatever, reminded people of places they had not ever been! I didn't ask for the comment, I didn't create the scene - it is in the music, it was put there by the interaction of the person who wrote it with whatever they were in at the time. I was just the player. See, I could no way reproduce that with "tech-analysis" - it's in the tune, been there a long time.
But I really appreciate how the techos go about the tunes, good craic.
Re: Tips for getting the bow working better and better!
What SWFL fiddler says reminds me of an exercise attributed to Kevin Burke: try to slur as many notes as you can, eventually leading to playing half a tune or so in one bow stroke, while still trying to maintain the pulse.
Purpose: improving your ability to make accents without changing bow direction, and that on any part of the bow.
Re: Tips for getting the bow working better and better!
Kevin was great at the master's concert line-up. 6 or so really good ITM fiddlers, all in a line on stage, doing a short solo gig in turn in front of a big audience. Great. First five...fantastic...fast, dramatic, scenario perfecto..great.
Next..Kevin. Kevin says "Right.....get the picture..." Then plays. Technically great of course, fantastic bowing, sells the tune, tune-imagery extraordinaire, showmanship personified - standing ovation.
Yep. What a great model to learn from.
Re: Tips for getting the bow working better and better!
well, this is something that worked for me;
practice a long bow from frog to tip, starts by lifting the bow up in a circular motion. and placing it down nr the frog. when you get the the tip repeat.
Now imagine for a moment the bow is in 2 halves , the first half you use your shoulder, so the elbow joint doesn't move. at the halfway point the elbow kicks in and the shoulder stops.once you can successfully do this join them into a whole bow stroke, nice and slowly.
lift and repeat.
Now instead of lifting , return back the way you came elbow first, halfway, then shoulder. with a bit of care approaching the tip to make sure it stays in a straight line parallel to the bridge.on the down stroke .
Do all this with no left hand. Now try it with a scale, concentrate on intonation and harmonise with the next string. aim for a steady pleasant and strong full tone.
Enjoy Open your chest and shoulders , think about openness, relaxation large expansive movement. Its very easy , when playing ITM to tense up, get 'into' it smaller, tight motion. Part of the idea here is to counteract that tightness and go for big expansive full bows, relax your face and shoulders, what is known as the tension triangle.
Try this bowing standing , even standing on a high point, like a chair, .... but dont fall and smash yer fiddle eh
Re: Tips for getting the bow working better and better!
It never fails to get me that you guys don't see the techno part of you...nevertheless the tunes that come out of you are great.
Ye seem not to feel the music guys, but produce it anyway.
Good stuff, it's great craic. It would not get by without ye.
I just know where to put the fingers and off the music goes...thanks to whoever wrote it...much better than me at the music, thank fully.
SWFL - "feel the music" compare to what you write...how do you reconcile that? Mate, think about how the tune makes you "feel" and then what that makes you want to do on your fiddleboard. Imagine! Then you'll be fiddler extraordinaire, imho.
Re: Tips for getting the bow working better and better!
Have you actually tried the fiddle DD? it aint quite as easy as all that
Your a piper right? so you gotta set up your reeds? why bother with all that , just listen and play! feck tuning , just play
Re: Tips for getting the bow working better and better!
Mate, I have tried fiddle, and I don't know how you guys put up with it...it destroys it for me. Too technical. I don't presume it's aesy, mate, it just not me. Once you get friendly with your reeds yer ok, just cradle them along with the pressure, ok? Gentle as she goes. The music flows then like a river, ye don't have to try too much, yer apart from it, and just have to lisen.
(Not have to keep axin' away). I appreciate it gys, don't get me rong.
Re: Tips for getting the bow working better and better!
I'm with dubh, just let the music do it. Bowing in Irish fiddle music is pure intuition. There are no technical exercises that can help at all. It is so far removed from the technical skills required for classical bowing that to use any of the tips helpful to a classical player may well even be detrimental.
As Dubh says, just let the music flow and don't try too hard. It doesn't matter if you get into a small tight motion. It doesn't matter if you don't get a big fat round tone. All this has nothing to do with diddley music.
Shylock asks: "Should I just play around with the bow until I start hearing what I want?" Yep
So someone says: "Pick out an easy jig to start, take a pencil ..." A PENCIL? Bloody hell
Re: Tips for getting the bow working better and better!
I dont picture stuff really ,no, but I dont concentrate on where to put my fingers either, I am generally wrapped up in the music, being part of it in a way, allowing the tune to sing through me . In Arabic there is a great expression Bismillah. It means from god through me.
The idea with all this technical stuff is to do away with it. Really, its something you do so that you can forget about it, it just becomes a part of you, internalised. Thats the whole point, to freely sing through the instrument unconfined by physical handicaps[ as much as possible]
I like that, get friendly with your reeds. its like that wid the fiddle too, and the bow, getting friendly with them so we can work together to create beautiful music.....
Re: Tips for getting the bow working better and better!
I never thought I'd see eye to eye with llig, but there you go. He's a man after me'own hart by the look, on this anyway,.
god thru me, jig., sounding very kaballah, and rightly so in this context, imho.
We do well to remember imho - this music was written by others before us, in times no longer here. It is a host that we partake of, and try to do justice to - while we are here. the music will be here long after we are not. Enjoy. and aenjoy the company of all here.
Re: Tips for getting the bow working better and better!
Yeah...I knew I was doin the wrong thing by sayin "written", but you know...too late. What else can you say, rhod? Made up, "invented", jayz, whatddaya reckon?
This music flowz...like a river, yeah...if you can play half way good, it helps you...not the other way round. The music is eternal...like a river (hopefully)...not us(maybe). Eh.
Re: Tips for getting the bow working better and better!
Playin the uilleann pipes is like breathin' gently, ye concentrate on the bag and bellowin for me anyway, and let the music flow from the chanter...concentrate on yer breathin....then sometimes y'hear the music flowin'...tis magic...ye know ye didn't "write" this, but *give* it on for ye. Blessed I am for the privilege.
Re: Tips for getting the bow working better and better!
re the "flowing river" comment--
Probably the best advice I ever got about Irish tunes went something like:
This music is a series of never-ending connected notes, like a babbling brook that never stops, with "end" of the tune flowing back into the beginning like an animal that bites its own tail and forms a perfect circle. (Maybe thanks to the pipes, with their nonstop flow of air, no need to pause for a breath.)
You can get that feeling with "short bows" (up and down) but usually you it's best to slur notes together to avoid any noticeable breaks. That means not changing bow direction when you go from one string to another--"slurring across the strings."
It is totally counter-intuitive for anybody who has had some classical exposure, takes some getting used to, but it really works. It's one of the main things that makes Irish fiddle sound so different from classical violin.
Re: Tips for getting the bow working better and better!
Sounds like ye have two totally different animals sittin tegether playing the same music for the same effect, and producin that flowyin river! Long may they live tigether.
Re: Tips for getting the bow working better and better!
I hate to break the reverie, but....
Yes, you do have to "live inside the tune" to play as well as a Kevin Burke. Feel the flow, lose yourself, be a conduit for the music. Kevin himself would tell you the same.
But that's only part of it.
The other part is thousands of hours of playing, and no small amount of that with a hard-nosed attention to technique.
Years after his stint with the Bothy Band, well into his career as a brilliant fiddler, Kevin buckled down and spent some focused time refining his technique. Rumor has it he even took lessons from a violinist.
Was this "necessary?" No--obviously, he was already a respected Irish fiddler. Sure, you can play the diddley music just fine without worrying much about "technique."
But think twice before you hold Kevin Burke up as a model musician and, in the same breath, pretend that no concentrated effort is involved.
In the end, "technique" is just the motions we go through to get the sounds we want. The more closely, the deeper you learn to listen to those sounds, the more nuanced your technique will become--if you nurture those nuances.
Re: Tips for getting the bow working better and better!
Will, sure he did. But it's soul I think we're on about I thought. You can put in as much technical effort and analysis as you like and get great, but you need soul to contribute to your liseners to your music. ITM has soul in-built, imho, if you have soul while you play it will translate through you, maybe without you even knowing...technically good or not.
Kevin is technically great, and also has great soul, imho.
Re: Tips for getting the bow working better and better!
You're right of course Will - it takes literally 100s if not 1000s of hours to get as good as KB. As a friend of mine said "you put in the hours, you get good - no mystery". It's the old 99% perspiration cliche, but no less true for that.
But as someone else said "Practice does not make perfect, only perfect practice makes perfect." As you know, I took a 'wrong road' myself and ended up paying for it with all sorts of shoulder problems. I'm now playing just a little fiddle again (can't resist it ) but concentrating almost solely on playing slowly whilst being relaxed - it sounds pretty bad just now, but I'm not bothered because I feel I'm doing it 'right' this time.
Re: Tips for getting the bow working better and better!
I still think that KB sees the imagery, and can deliver that because of his tech expertise. This is a very fine line it seems to me in ITm. Half good on instrument + imagery, is better than 100% good technical and no vision in delivery. Soul is needed.
Over concentration on tech-analysis, may mean no soul, just good techs. Are you thinking about your audience when you play? Or not?
Re: Tips for getting the bow working better and better!
Bow on a tilt, or on the flat? That's a personal choice, and there are doubtless good arguments for and against both techniques, but two points occur to me:
a) if the bow is played on the tilt a significant proportion of the hairs aren't being used – in which case why do they make bows with so many hairs (about 120)?
b) if the bow is used on the tilt then heavy bowing pressure is going to apply a lateral force to the bow stick which over a period of time with a wood bow will cause a permanent slight lateral set (which can be corrected, but would obviously cost).
Re: Tips for getting the bow working better and better!
I certainly do any how, I dont give a fig for those people so wrapped up in them selves that they dont care how the listeners feel about it. just do yer best and let god take care of the rest.
If I play for an audience I play differently than for myself. If I am on my own I might divert to concentrate on a tricky bit, I might just stop half way through a tune, whatever, but personally I feel a responsibility to consider those listening and I will give it my best shot.
Re: Tips for getting the bow working better and better!
good on yer yerself, jig. We're all conduits for what has gone before, imo, and pass it on with generosity, I say. It is not meant to be an introverted techo experience. Ask KB!
Re: Tips for getting the bow working better and better!
The bow thing is interesting, I have heard it both ways, I have a habit of a slant . I figure it relates to the angle you hold the fiddle, If it is parallel to the floor then flat on, the weight of the bow will be directly over the hair, but if like me your fiddle slants down then a slant with the stick closer to me puts the weight of the stick behind the hair....
Re: Tips for getting the bow working better and better!
I'm probably mistaken, but I was under the impression from the title of this discussion that it was primarily about improving bowing technique. To my mind (and ears), poor technique doesn't exactly enhance "soul delivery".
Re: Tips for getting the bow working better and better!
I am not knocking good bow exerise's Should have done more myself,,But when I was younger I only wanted to lear Tunes-
Not always a good thing,, But I'll tell you something that was
told to me , by a great Dundalk fiddler His mother Rose taught
him and his son Donal now a great young fiddler,,
When just learning Irish fiddle music he said- stick with jigs to learn how to control you bow better Slow at first move slowly on to moderation -faster etc , over a good period of time,, and
sometimes trying to lengthen bow strokes each time you practice - it worked for me -at the end you could flick a fly
off the wall without hitting the wall. lol.- The man who told
this is = SEE HERE= http://www.gerryoconnor.net/reviews/irish_times_review.html
Re: Tips for getting the bow working better and better!
Improving bowing technique, to what end. An end in itself, or to enhance the tune's message? Poor technique probably does not enhance any tune, but good technique in partnership with what you can imagine the imagery/message the tune wanting to deliver is the ticket, imo.
Re: Tips for getting the bow working better and better!
Lazy hound, you are quite correct, this is about bowing and technique, the diversion came about to remind us that, to quote James McGillivray ''there is only one reason to focus on technique, and that is so you can play better music''.
Re: Tips for getting the bow working better and better!
Jig, I know you appreciate what I'm on about...but it seems to me over these years there are a helluva lot of dry technical people out there playing ITM. That's great for dry technical understanding between close associates, but what about the people listening. Where's the scope for sharing and delivering to the audience? That's the roots of ITM, I feel. I mean, how well received are dry technical people anywhere...you got ta have soul! imho.
Re: Tips for getting the bow working better and better!
Kevin likes to tell a story about a time he played with the great swing mandolin player Jethro Burns. Burns marveled at Kevin's music, and during a break said, "You've got it--completely physically relaxed and mentally fierce."
What Kevin liked was that Jethro could hear the fierceness despite all outward appearances to the contrary.
I suspect Shylock doesn't need any help finding and expressing his "soul." What he's asking for is help with bowing.
Re: Tips for getting the bow working better and better!
I can guess at what McGillivray meant, but he should stick to music. His choice of words was poor. "Better" music? Because it's technically proficient?
The only reason to focus on technique is to remove the limits on what we can express musically.
Re: Tips for getting the bow working better and better!
Well I would agree with you. It is the same in any number of fields.
I feel that to some extent it is easier to focus on the practical aspects of music making and to lose sight of the more esoteric unquantifiable, aspects. Mainly because they are less accessable. there are few , 'how to instil your music with soul ' DVD's
Re: Tips for getting the bow working better and better!
Jig, you seem to be saying that the "soul" we put into music is "less accessible" than the technical bits.
If that's what you said above, I'd wholeheartedly (pardon the irony) have to disagree.
A life of music grants immediate, constant, rich, and full access to emotion, heart, soul, mystery, magic. All of it. If not, then it isn't music you're making.
Re: Tips for getting the bow working better and better!
Shylock, considering the bowing advice in this thread might lead you to think there's a contradiction. Some have advised using short separate bow strokes for each note. Others have said slur several (or even many) notes on a single long bow.
Do yourself a favor and do both, and everything in between.
Bowing is simple--it goes up, or it goes down. It goes long (from tip to frog and back) or it goes short (anything less than tip to frog, down to the width of a gnat's ass). It goes lightly and soft (where your hand helps unweight the bow as it grazes the string) or it goes heavily and loud (where your hand leans on the stick and you dig the hairs into the string). It goes slowly or it goes fast. It goes smoothly, or it bounces (intentionally) on the string.
Learn all of it, in every combination of the above. Persevere, but be patient with yourself--this is a lifelong trip. Enjoy the ride. Relax. Listen like you're listening to your first-born's breathing as s/he sleeps. Loose your imagination. Try something new, hone something old. Play with others.
Re: Tips for getting the bow working better and better!
''A life of music grants immediate, constant, rich, and full access to emotion, heart, soul, mystery, magic. All of it. If not, then it isn't music you're making.''
From your point of view fair enough, but can you not see that others may have a different approach and yet still make music?
Re: Tips for getting the bow working better and better!
Okay -- I went to a Kevin Burke "house" workshop many years ago. He gave one as he was passing through the D.C. area.
And one of the comments he made was ( and I clearly remember this)
"Your technique IS your bowing/playing."
Unless you are one of those savants born with a superior knowledge of ITM fiddle playing -- who is fully developed by the age of 4 years -- you will have to go through the process of learning all the basics of playing the instrument.
As "painful" as it may be to acknowledge -- at least on the fiddle/violin, I do not think you can achieve "soulful/interpetive playing" until you have sound or better technique.
It may depend on the individual -- just how long it takes to develop that. It likely also depends on the age at which you begin. This may be part of the "language learning" ability --- which allows children to unconsciously absorb many languages before they reach a certain age. At that age (whatever it is) -- the human brain begins to settle itself -- to fuse certain patterns of neuronal connection and neglect others. After that point, learning a language is a different kind of work.
So if you began playing your fiddle as a young child, you may get to the point where you can play very expressively -- without being conscious of laboring through "baby-steps" to get there.
Otherwise -- if you have genius-level musical ability -- you are extremely lucky. If you don't -- it takes a lot of practice, over quite a long period of time -- and I think you improve by increments. It's good to appreciate each incremental improvement and each slightly greater mastery of all the technical aspects (intonation, basic bowing, developing "the swing," etc. If you don't appreciate the "small triumphs" --- you'll probably go NUTS while you're trying to reach the ultimate goal.
I think the goal of playing the fiddle with heart and soul -- of using your body and brain as a vehicle for the music to come through -- is REALISTIC. It can be achieved. But for most people, it cannot be achieved without a significant amount of effort.
Most "good things" take time and commitment.
I think the goal is the joy of playing with beauty and soul -- to fulfill yourself and hopefully spill some beauty and soulfulness outside yourself to other people.
But I do think it is by far sweeter if you have to work really hard to get there -- for most people.
If you work at it with commitment over a long period of time -- things will start to happen with your playing. Suddenly, the rhythmic quality you struggled to get in your playing will just happen.
I had my bowing technique severely criticized -- and went back to square no. 1 and learned "specific bowing patterns." Now, I spend a little part of my practice time working on slurring groups of notes with both up bow and down bow. What I was told should only be done in one direction, I want to be able to do in "both" directions from the "subconscious" level.
If you can move the bow freely in both directions, balance it and get an even tone across the most of the bow, and on all strings .....you are much more likely to be able to 'give in' to the intuitive exprssion of the tune/melody you are playing.
My opinions (and I'm sure you've had enough of them by now in this post -- so goodbye for now)
Re: Tips for getting the bow working better and better!
''Jig, I'm sorry if you find it hard to access your soul. In complete earnestness, I'd suggest that maybe playing scales and arpeggios isn't helping.''
LOL, Thanks for the advice but I can assure you i have no problems in that regard. You appear to be assuming that because I speak up for an attitude/ point of view that I take that approach. No, I learn from who ever has something to offer. I have tempered my 'fire' with cold dispassionate technique. As a result, I feel i am a more rounded and balanced individual. I am a lot better musician too. Spirit and raw guts are all very well, but they wont get you far in a game of chess.
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Wow, what the heck happened in here? So Rhod, how's the bowing going anyway?
Hey double D, that's some mighty craic right there. A piper telling fiddlers to stop worrying about their bowing and feel the music? If we didn't feel the music, my brother, we wouldn't be worried about crappy bowing screwing up the beautiful feel of the music, now would we?
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Well dude, if you have crappy piping technique but you felt the music anyway, would it do ya much good?
...and I agree, eye contact with your audience is a vital part of performing. When I perform music, I make sure I do that, but I hardly ever "perform" at a session...
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Well said Fid42 / Linda, a lovely heartfelt addition, appreciated. I'm glad I persisted long enough to read that. I'm sure you, SWFL, payed some attention to that... It applies to your previous thread, which I'd slowly backed away from as the hissing and howling began and the claws came out and the hair started flying flying...
Re: Tips for getting the bow working better and better!
To my mind my main aim is too create a beautiful tone with which to play the tunes. So any and all techniques that will facilitate my own personal development are welcome. In this day and age with mass media the bar is considerably higher than even 40 yrs ago. We are surrounded by top level musicians playing their stuff on CD radio etc. .
My point is that its worth putting that effort in to put across our music we love so much.
Re: Tips for getting the bow working better and better!
Part of the problem with this thread is encapsulated by Will earlier: "The only reason to focus on technique is to remove the limits on what we can express musically."
This is, of course, correct (and jig's analogy of chess is, of course, typically stupid) but something of vital importance needs to be taken into account. The amount of technique required to play diddley music even at the very highest level is capped. This is one of its greatest strengths. You only need first position and the middle third of your bow. Use more bow if you want, but never lose sight of the fact that you don't need it.
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re reading that post from Linda again, I'm not convinced by this line: "I do think it is by far sweeter if you have to work really hard to get there." I'm not sure that taking pride in the hard work is the right attitude.
Sure you have to put in a lot of work, but my argument is based on two connected points. 1. The music is, relatively speaking, technically and harmonically very easy. 2. The music is, relatively speaking, extremely subtle with regards to accent and rhythm, especially at the micro level. So you have to put in a lot of work. But to know the music, all you need is to put the work into learning it, learning it's subtleties. The simple techniques required will easily take care of themselves, they don't require any extra concentrated practice for their own sakes.
As Kevin Burke said: "Your technique IS your bowing/playing."
Re: Tips for getting the bow working better and better!
Michael, I knew you'd pick up on that.
And it's why I said "thousands of hours of playing" and NOT "thousands of hours of work."
We ***play*** this music; don't think that you can get the technique for playing it by grinding it out of drills and exercises.
Again: "In the end, "technique" is just the motions we go through to get the sounds we want. The more closely, the deeper you learn to listen to those sounds, the more nuanced your technique will become--if you nurture those nuances."
Re: Tips for getting the bow working better and better!
" ~ don't think that you can get the technique for playing it by grinding it out of drills and exercises." ~ Will CPT
Which will usually result in sounding like the 'grinding out of drills and exercises'...
I'd also like to add my exclamation mark to the 'play' in 'playing'..
The other potential deviance to bring light on here is the concept of emotion, subtlety as opposed to when feeling is debased to the bathetic, when it isn't subtle and the result is embarassing melodrama ~ the artificial, hackneyed ~ trite sentimental tripe... That is at least as bad as playing the music like an exercise, sawing off notes.
Bad poetry tells you what to feel, weighed down with adverbs and adjectives and emotive words instead of emotive images ~ it leaves nothing to the imagination. Good poetry creates a setting and circumstances and leaves the feeling up to you. Music can be measured similarly... There is some awful slurry out there in the way of slick music that pretends to be heartfelt, or at least sounds that way to me ~ affected. That was an intended slur, not on any single musician, so none shall be named, but on that act of abuse on the music tnat makes me cringe...
Re: Tips for getting the bow working better and better!
That's interesting ceolachan and I agree. And I'd treat the danger of bathos in the same way as the danger of 'grinding out of drills and exercises'. Never ever try to put emotion in your music. Just let it happen.
Re: Tips for getting the bow working better and better!
The analogy of holding the bow as you would a newborn bird was used by the great classical virtuoso Yehudi Menuhin, but could easily be older. The key to using the bow as well as possible is first holding the bow well. Given that showing’s better than saying for stuff like this, here’s a good DVD with exercises designed for getting an optimal bow hold: “Techniques for the Contemporary String Player" with Julie Lyonn Lieberman.” It’s quite inexpensive on Amazon (a fraction of the price of a single lesson).
Other than that, always keep the bow parallel to the bridge, don't use more bow length than is needed (it makes the sound harsh), don't have too much tension in the hair (a common mistake among Irish fiddlers), get good rosin and don't use too much, and in general you should feel all movements of the bow originating in the forearm!
Re: Tips for getting the bow working better and better!
In terms of what kinds of emotional breadth and depth a player can get into their playing, or does get into it -- I feel that has to have its basis in the core personality of the particular musician -- how that person experiences *life.*
To invest what you are playing with a certain emotional quality, you have to have access to that feeling in your gut. If your life, your background, and your extended history have schooled you to feel everything from agony to ecstacy and all the nuances in between -- and if you don't "block" yourself to a lot of these options because you think they are inappropriate -- then hints of *all* may sneak into your playing of music....and maybe weave strands comprised of "mixed emotional nuance." But you have to have a firm grip on "the middle ground" -- because anything that lives at the extremes gets to be too much very fast.
So it's more than just technique or being able to "hear" the nuances in other peoples' playing.
I think some of it has to do with ....(and this sounds so lame in a way)......are you in touch with your emotions? If you are, and you can get a command of essential technique -- hopefully you can tap into your emotional "core" when you play.
Re: Tips for getting the bow working better and better!
* drills and exercises ~ yes, they can help to loosen you up, and make you aware of where the dreaded beast 'tension' might be creeping in ~ and give you a way to cure that before it really 'cramps' your style...but I'm still with the main camp in believing that playing the music is the best direction to take, where the main focus should be... Even there we have a natural tendency to create our own exercises and drills, when some small part of a tune or turn needs attention and we make it into a unit of exercise, slowing down and playing it repeatedly until we have the sound we want, tone and definition...
~ "holding the bow as you would a newborn bird" ~ a superb analogy whoever the source. I'd imagine it was older, but would love to hear that proven, maybe 1700s?
* lush ~ the overbearing need to slurp all over the music, to get in it's way... In a sense the difference could be described as 'performing', affecting the music, putting yourself and your emotions on show, forcing it, going OTT ~ as opposed to just being at one with the music and yourself. As an example of the worst excess here, on recordings, listen to Sean Maguire's brutal treatment of airs... Sorry, but it makes me gag. That said, there are other things he's done I've been impressed with, but not his playing of airs...
* Llig: "Never ever try to put emotion in your music. Just let it happen." ~ !
* Fid42: "mixed emotional nuance." But you have to have a firm grip on "the middle ground" -- because anything that lives at the extremes gets to be too much very fast."
* 'c': Yes! ~ the key word being 'nuance'...
articulation ~ the bow as breath, consonants, vowels, syllables... Will's and Fid42's previous comments weave to this end, that it's good to explore all possibilities and in that exploration make decisions that lead toward an individual voice. It may have a link to character and personality, you may like the rhythmic cut of the short bow more than the slur of the long, you might decide you prefer bowed triplets to a roll. You should have and do have free choice. Don't let drives toward standardization spoil your finding your own way with this music, with the bow or however you articulate your chosen instrument. Learn from what came before, try those options, but in the end make your own decisions, based on the tradition you've chosen to become a part of...
I have an interest in language and languages too, no gift there, but an interest. When I was travelling I took note of how non-English speakers felt about what they heard of English, and they made me more aware of the music of natural languages, from the monotone to the sung. They favoured hearing it sung, and I agree, and I also feel that is true of the bow, and that is not only in the 'cut', the change of bow direction, but in the wide and wonderful world of dynamics that can also help to give that life of 'song', 'dance', to a melody. I was enjoying some Paddy Canny recently and he definitely has fun with those possibilities, and then some...
Re: Tips for getting the bow working better and better!
I agree with the man who is drunk on music -- here! I think the use of a range of dynamics combined with bow attack and perhaps a bit of a slip-and-slide into a note here and there -- all these things help the music to "tell a story" which is not articulated in words, but through an interplay of feelings that can be evoked.
The modes of the tunes will lay down a basic framework for a "musical conversation." Within a given mode, there are many opportunities for insinuating small subtle statements -- of playfulness, or strength, or fragility, or a moment of dazzling "pure light" (perhaps when you try to give a note at the apex of a phrase some extra time and fullness of tone so it will "glow" or jump out from the other notes it is "packed between." Or maybe it's a nuance of something dark, some sorrow lurking beneath the "joy." To my ear, actually, the uillean pipes are masterful at delivering this quality of sound -- but I think it can be done on many instruments and certanly on the fiddle. You can be funny/droll, or sly, dark and then light, light and then dark, wide open --- or secretive. You can "explore."
Re: Tips for getting the bow working better and better!
I think I should clarify my position a bit here. I am firmly with the tune playng camp. Drills and exercises are a means to an end. They are a small tool in the fiddlers toolbox. That said, when you need a specific tool you cant just pull out any old hammer or screwdriver.
My argument re scales, and bowing exercises is that we isolate complex mechanical motions to focus on them in order to bring them back in with greater control over them. . This I think we all do, with aspects of a tune that might trouble us.
For me it was essential to divorce the technical aspects from 'playing'. To deal with the tricky process of learning the bow without also attempting to conform to complex set forms; tunes.
I see so many beginning fiddlers who cant hold a tune, or play in tune, yet they know lots of tunes? They sit in sessions hiding behind the boxes. Now I am not critisising this, if it works for them, they get to play in sessions, thats fine. more power to their elbow. But why not spend some time on actually getting a good sound?
If you have been playing a while, and you cant hold a tune or play in tune then some technical work could do wonders for your playing. Its that simple. but its all to do with playing the tunes.
Re: Tips for getting the bow working better and better!
I like what Linda posted above--reminds me of a line I heard or read somewhere (maybe Ciaran Carson's "Last Night Fun"?) that a certain musician could make "each note seem like the most important thing in the world at the moment it was being played."
I suppose it's possible to go overboard with such an approach (mebbe not?), but it certainly helps my own connection with the music--which is an instantaneous multi-channel two-way exchange--to be conscious in some part of my mind of the nuances possible with each and every note (and silence between the notes).
Just a thought, after playing tunes till the wee hours last night/this morning....
Re: Tips for getting the bow working better and better!
I just finished 45 minutes of practicing -- playing -- working on a reel I am learning from Brendan's playing on the Millenium Stage archives (Kennedy Center) year 2001.
What I noticed is that I do more-or-less design my own "technical exercises" in the context of learning, working on, playing a tune. I might experiment with different ways of playing a tune with my left hand, and then experiment with the bow to try different ways of attacking, slipping into or sliding into a note. But what I stop playing the whole tune and work on one phrase, and the technique to play that phrase different ways.
My work on technique is "in the service of playing music" -- not the other way around.
Maybe I am missing the sound of a note in a phrase, because I can't catch the string on an upbow for the milli-second that is needed (it's going fast, the note isn't accented, and the accented note is on a downbow; HOWEVER, if I miss that little note altogether, something is "missing" and I can hear it. If I don't have the technique/flexibility to catch a millisecond of a note beginning from an upbow -- I won't be able to play smoothly when I want to. I might get choppiness where I don't want it.
My ability to get a strong tone on the G string and to rock between the G and the D has increased 100% in the last year. This is because I worked on the technique --- not because I want to take my fiddle out of the case and play a rocking bowing pattern for an hour -- because I want to be able to play TUNES with a sense of freedom and enjoyment.
In a way, playing an instrument could be a sort-of athletics -- on a limited scale. You don't use as much of your body -- but it requires fine-tuning the motions you use and developing muscle memory.
I can do things on the fiddle without struggling at all now, that I had to struggle with one or two years ago. I enjoy playing more, my playing sounds more musical, and altogether, the pleasure just gets greater. Why? Because I worked on my technique. I do spend a tiny amount of time playing scales -- not much -- but hells bells -- it doesn't hurt me.
Oh, and here is an insight for you. I met Donna Long's mother at a concert a few years ago, in a suburb of Baltimore. The concert was given by Donna Long, Jessie Smith and Yvonne Kane (who was married to Jessie at that time). I was talking to Donna's mother at some point during a break or after the concert. I was talking about Jessie's fiddle playing - admiring his virtuosity.
Donna's mother said -- "Well, he works very hard at it. They both work very hard at it." She added something like "I've seen them" (....working very hard at it).
And Donna once said to me about learning the fiddle, "It's a labor of love." She plays the fiddle as well as the piano, y'know.
Re: Tips for getting the bow working better and better!
Uh -- typos and phrases that wind up hanging on the end of a post -- gross mistakes in the use of the English language ---- show up in my posts -- but I'm not practicing for a "grammar bee" here. Please ignore mistakes.
I just HATE proofreading my posts and often don't do it.
Obviously I meant to say "What I do IS STOP PLAYING THE WHOLE TUNE" (and invent a sort of technical exercise which addresses a problem I've having in PLAYING SOME TUNE.
Re: Tips for getting the bow working better and better!
What a great thread this turned out to be, disregarding the bits that were 'up to our knees in muck', thank you Linda, 'c', Will and even Jig (near the end). Well worth the sift through for swallowed diamonds, and some great advice for one old scraper, at least, on a quest to release some beautiful tunes blocked within. Thank you guys and gals. Loverly.
Re: Tips for getting the bow working better and better!
Me too Linda, me too... Howdy Clear Drops... Hey, what ever happened to Shylock? Good to see you're still hanging on Llig (~ you do know I say that in Welsh with a grin don't you? Your second reversal comes off sounding Yiddish... )
Re: Tips for getting the bow working better and better!
I was going to post something last night (gave up 'cos, after the second bottle, I found it kept disappearing ... and then I fell asleep) - (a) in support of Mac, because I think it's good to have someone point out idiocies when they occur, because otherwise there's a danger some may think they're unchallenged fact; and (b) to say, about bowing:
People have said, a long way above, that you should play with the bow on a slant. Others have said that you should play with the bow hairs flat. Firstly, if you do play with the hairs tilted, play with the wood part tilted *away* from you, not towards you as would have been implied (though I'm not sure if it was meant) by jig's post some way back. Secondly, and much more importantly, you shoud be able to play with the bow tilted or flat as the occasion demands. You need every technique if you're going to get a full range of sounds.
The fiddle is an amazingly versatile instrument, and you should use all of its capabilities (well, a lot of them anyway! ). For instance, a fiddle can be played with one of those enormous 3,648 bass button piano accordion thingies just as well as with a lone tin whistle. Prefer the latter, though ...
Hello to everyone,
I posted this and didn't get time to join in, but wow this is what it's all about...sure have taken note of very many wise stetments here...won't say which ones there were so many...but information like this is like a shot in the arm for me to get back and 'play' with that bow more and more until I can get more 'life' out of it, until I start making evry note 'sound' like the greatest note I ever played.
Re: Tips for getting the bow working better and better!
Hey, some nice folks have made a show, hi Ben & Clear Drops, nice to see you hangin' about. Howdy Stevie, how's it blowin.?
Don't jump on me, I'm glad to see you all, but I'm raising the issue of an fresh stab, a potentially fatal fang attack, one that is personal, in the sense that an individual is being used as an 'example' for something that would do better on its own, as a 'general' statement of opinion... Here's that potentially fatal strike in replay:
* jig: "Clear drops, I have seen and heard you play. You would do well to drop the ornaments and focus on:
~ bowing
~ rhythm (and probably)
~ intonation ( ~ though I cant rightly remember... )
~ A tune has to be danceable. Its that simple.
You can take my advice or not. Good luck. Remember we are all on this journey together."
* c: Ouch! I winced when I saw that initially. I just don't see the need for making someone the scapegoat of an 'example', whether or not you've heard them or actually feel that way about their playing. I can even say this about certain a*sholes I know who can't play worth shight. In fact shight is worth more for composting that what they do to terrorize folks with their attempts at making music. BUT ~ I wouldn't name them or make an exhibition of them or parade them in front of others as an example of what I dislike or think needs attention. Besides, in the worst cases, they actually are deluded to the point of thinking they're good, so no amount of harangue will change that. They are too egomaniacal to respond to even the best intentioned contstructive criticism. So, why drag Clear Drops into something that could potentially be a good talking point instead of raising hackles and increasing the angst that has already had air on this thread ~ and for which the wisdom of our Webmaster, Jeremy, has seen fit to delete.
I slipped in 'constructive criticism'... Even on a one-to-one or group teaching situation, the worst you can do is just criticize, just say the negative. First, it will always weigh more to a developing musician, or to anyone for that matter. So, you have to at least try to balance it, actually over balance it, in favour of the positive, to let people know what you appreciated, what they do well, so they have something to hold on to when you tell them what isn't working as good as it could. Even then, the negative can be directed to the positive, in how you phrase it, or how you teach instead of condemn, direct their energies and passion instead of p*ssin' on them.
This is from experience, because I have had my moments of fault here. I have been unfair and inconsiderate. I don't know about the rest of you, but where this music is concerned, or dance for that matter, or anything, when I've slammed the door in somebody's face ~ I hate it. I feel it. I also know how hard it is to undo the damage once you've been that clumsy with someone else's feelings. It's awful. I have my weak moments, but it isn't something I like or want to repeat, and I try now to be more aware. I can easily say that is a goal, to be more aware and considerate of others, so that I can nurture rather than hamper. This doesn't apply to as*holes though. I don't intend to give in there, but to try to avoid or back away before I let fly. But, I don't always succeed there.
Here's the gist of this particular contribution of jig's, which applies to me and anyone, not just dear Clear Drops ~ things to consider ~
~ to 'drop the ornaments' and focus on:
~ bowing
~ rhythm
~ intonation
~ the dance in dance music...
When I'm in that position, teaching or sharing, this is pretty much part of where I go. I try to get them to slow down, to drop all fingered ornamentation, and to focus on what they can do with the articulation of the rhythm and phrasing to help detail the dance in the music, and to focus on the quality of their tone, intonation, to find the 'dance' in dance music. It will also help with airs in the long run too... So, long sentences and short phrase, Nathaniel Hawthorn and Ernest Hemingway... With this approach let's go to Ezra Pound, his way with diluting the word and content of poetry, and we'll bring in the Imagists here, to give the content the focus rather than our clumsy interpretation of it, to lay bare the melody and the dance in it before we get overly personal with it and start twiddling it to death... Speed and an inconsiderate approach to 'showing what we can do' can kill any life, lift or dance the melody is capable of. We want it to live, not to be weighed down with as much crap as we can pile on the back of this donkey ~ to the point that we cripple it and it hobbles. We want to respect the freedom of the tune and go along with that and the dance in it instead of working against that with our own interferences.
So, focusing on the bow, which is what attracts me to such threads, to that articulation, is great, but why make it a personal attack. Whether that was the intention or not, that is how I read that opening, and why I winced. I left this thread, I came back, got really interested again with what Linda and others were saying, and then things went sour again...
Yes, a good suggestion was there, but it was lessened by the way it was delivered. Anyone that comes under my wing gets something similar suggested, to leave some things alone for a spell and focus on the basics. The bow has always been more important in my sense of things than the fingered ornaments. It is what draws my attention and makes my feet move, gets them tapping, and lifts my heart and makes me take the music personal, personal in a good and community way, that sharing. I love seeing the bow 'dance', watching it move, at least in the hands of someone with at least a reasonable understanding of this. There are others that make me seasick if I watch what they do ~ but I'm not naming names...
Re: Tips for getting the bow working better and better!
Jeez whats the problem. I have been trying to help people without nameing names, so I decided to be direct. Its not an attack! A piece of frindly advice, followed by; '' we are all on this journey together. Here is someone CD who wants to improve, if she takes my advice I honestly feel she will. If she carries on playing tunes as some people suggest, stuck out in the wildlands how is she going to achieve her aims? without constructive critisism. Not destructive , but heartfelt understanding and empathy. I feel for you and I am saying clearly to you if you want to get better follow C's advice above.
My first post; ''well, this is something that worked for me;
practice a long bow from frog to tip, starts by lifting the bow up in a circular motion. and placing it down nr the frog. when you get the the tip repeat.
Now imagine for a moment the bow is in 2 halves , the first half you use your shoulder, so the elbow joint doesn't move. at the halfway point the elbow kicks in and the shoulder stops.once you can successfully do this join them into a whole bow stroke, nice and slowly.
lift and repeat.
Now instead of lifting , return back the way you came elbow first, halfway, then shoulder. with a bit of care approaching the tip to make sure it stays in a straight line parallel to the bridge.on the down stroke .
Do all this with no left hand. Now try it with a scale, concentrate on intonation and harmonise with the next string. aim for a steady pleasant and strong full tone.
Enjoy Open your chest and shoulders , think about openness, relaxation large expansive movement. Its very easy , when playing ITM to tense up, get 'into' it smaller, tight motion. Part of the idea here is to counteract that tightness and go for big expansive full bows, relax your face and shoulders, what is known as the tension triangle.
Try this bowing standing , even standing on a high point, like a chair''.
Re: Tips for getting the bow working better and better!
Okay Jig -- I would venture -- it depends on whether when you start out -- your goal is simply to deliver information -- or whether your goal is to deliver information kindly. In the first instance, you are so intent on delivering information, you don't consider how you are going to package the information. In the second instance, before you begin the delivery of the information you consider the "packaging." Is the packaging blunt, is it gentle, is it serious or ironic. When the package arrives at the recipient's doorstep, and said "R" first encounters the "Package" -- what is R's gut response going to be. When you get ready to deliver the information, the question is, are you going to deliver it as in "instance 1" or as in "instance 2." I will say, I have put my foot in my mouth up to me knee many times --- delivering information of various sorts to people without considering the packaging. Perhaps the information was valuable, but the packaging did not make the information easy to receive.
I learned that for me -- taking care with the packaging could eliminate sudden realization that I might have made someone feel quite badly, and it wasn't necessary. I have honestly done this and nearly kicked myself around the block, realizing that I probably hurt someone's feelings badly. Then I wondered WHY. Why did I say it that way? I believe in honesty, but I also believe in kindness. Just some thoughts I'm having......
Re: Tips for getting the bow working better and better!
You're bashing your heads against a brick wall with the jig fellow. He's simply not bright enough to see his own inconsistencies and contradictions. And he's too proud to acknowledge them when clearly pointed out. But worst of all, he's too arrogant to even consider any other view than his own. Sure, he posts some good stuff now and again, but judging by the amount he posts, the monkey and the complete works of Shakespeare springs to mind. And like a petulant child, he lashes out.
From Kevin Burke: "Your technique IS your bowing/playing."
From Jig, "For me it was essential to divorce the technical aspects from 'playing'." (copy/pasted)
"One of the things which Jessie said that stuck in my mind was about Michael Coleman. We had played her several recordings of great players to listen to but she singled him out and told me
"He finds the soul of his instrument". Nobody had ever told me before that musical instruments even had souls! That was an exciting bit of news - another revelation! " http://www.kevinburke.com/html_home.html
Tips for getting the bow working better and better!
Tips for getting the bow working better and better!
Gentle people,
Any tips on getting my bowing up to the notch?
Should I do special exercises? Should I just play around with the bow until I start hearing what I want? What should I look for when playing apart from consistent sound? Are there tricks? apart from the clockwise and anti-clockwise stuff? What do I need in Irish music?
Any tips would be grand
I thank ye
# Posted on February 15th 2008 by Shylock
Re: Tips for getting the bow working better and better!
Pick out an easy jig to start, take a pencil and put in slurs to make different combonations throughout the song. Eventually with experience you will figure out what feels good to play and sounds noice. Every player has their own bowing combo they like so there are no set rules as to how you shoul bow. If you are serious about it then pick up a good teaching book like Matt Cranitch. Its full of good information.Hope this helps.
# Posted on February 15th 2008 by islanda
Re: Tips for getting the bow working better and better!
Some people say that you should tilt the bow so that more of the 'edge' of the hair is playing on the string. I used to play like that but then I got a new teacher who persuaded me that you get fatter tone if you use the hair 'flat' so that more of the hair is making contact with the string. I'm sure there will be varying opinions about this! YMMV
One exercise I used to do was to play a scale or any multi note pattern (tune!) with a separate bow stroke for each note. The idea is to co-ordinate the bow changing direction precisely with the finger either being lifted or put down. Start slow and build up speed over a few weeks or months. It's very difficult to achieve precision at first, but comes with time.
People worry a lot about bow direction (I used to) but after a while it just sort of comes together and you just do it. I like what Kevin Burke said at a workshop I attended years ago - the bow either goes up, or down - that's all there is to it!
Probably the most important thing of all is to relax. Again Kevin Burke said you should hold the bow as you would an injured bird - loose enough so as not to cause further injury but tight enough so it can't struggle - worked for me! if you are getting pains in your shoulders it might well be caused by tension in the hand/fingers. Spend time as you play analysing where the tension is in your body.
I've gone on a bit, so I'll shut up now...
# Posted on February 15th 2008 by Rhod
Re: Tips for getting the bow working better and better!
No don't, Rhod. That's exactly what Kevin's bowing looks like...it is magic to watch, the guy seems to create something that suits the tune just by his bowing technique. I don't know how to describe it, but he's the full deal imo when it comes to bowing + tune + feeling package.
Nice obs, rhod.
# Posted on February 15th 2008 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: Tips for getting the bow working better and better!
I actually mentioned to Kevin that I thought it is very important to "feel" the tune while you're playing it (as I thought he does), maybe just to see the answer to such 'esotericism' from a master. His answer? "Just like all music".
# Posted on February 15th 2008 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: Tips for getting the bow working better and better!
My post of Feb 11 on http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/16635 has a comment or two that may help.
# Posted on February 15th 2008 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Tips for getting the bow working better and better!
Wow, that's a great analogy from Mr. Burke, I'm stealing it but I'll use it with proper footnotes, thanks Rhod.
I would advise using the bow on a tilt, not flat. That's standard for classical training and I feel it gives more control, plus it allows you to you give it ye olde fiddler's crunch with ease.
Try slowing it down and bowing every note, chop chop chop. Often times, the notes in the tune will suggest bowing to you, some notes are easier to slur together than others.
Are you good at slurring notes together? Do you need to practice that? It's amazing how many notes you can get out of one bow stroke. That might be something to mess with to get the feel of slurring, just try to run as many notes together in one bow stroke.
Do you have specific issues? Just not feeling up to snuff in general? If that's the case, it may just take time, Shylock, to realize what such esoteric things as "feeling the tune" with your bow means!
# Posted on February 15th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Tips for getting the bow working better and better!
Thanks for the post reference, lazh...interesting reading, and you too swfl fiddler...and maybe it's because I'm a piper, whistle, flute ITM player, but you guys certainly lose me with all the tech-analysis stuff. I don't think I could play a tune by following that sort of tech-rule stuff.
Someone wrote these tunes obviously, in the context of something - probably the situation they were in at the time, the land, what other people wanted to hear, I don't know, but they have an "imagery" or something - dunno really, but to me, it's there. If you can play your choice of instrument half way good, the music will carry the rest. I've had it said to me (and I am privileged to have it said to me) that the tune that I would play on pipes, whatever, reminded people of places they had not ever been! I didn't ask for the comment, I didn't create the scene - it is in the music, it was put there by the interaction of the person who wrote it with whatever they were in at the time. I was just the player. See, I could no way reproduce that with "tech-analysis" - it's in the tune, been there a long time.
But I really appreciate how the techos go about the tunes, good craic.
# Posted on February 15th 2008 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: Tips for getting the bow working better and better!
What SWFL fiddler says reminds me of an exercise attributed to Kevin Burke: try to slur as many notes as you can, eventually leading to playing half a tune or so in one bow stroke, while still trying to maintain the pulse.
Purpose: improving your ability to make accents without changing bow direction, and that on any part of the bow.
Remember: it's just an exercise !
# Posted on February 15th 2008 by Henk Bos
Re: Tips for getting the bow working better and better!
Kevin was great at the master's concert line-up. 6 or so really good ITM fiddlers, all in a line on stage, doing a short solo gig in turn in front of a big audience. Great. First five...fantastic...fast, dramatic, scenario perfecto..great.
Next..Kevin. Kevin says "Right.....get the picture..." Then plays. Technically great of course, fantastic bowing, sells the tune, tune-imagery extraordinaire, showmanship personified - standing ovation.
Yep. What a great model to learn from.
# Posted on February 15th 2008 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: Tips for getting the bow working better and better!
That';s professionalism imho.
# Posted on February 15th 2008 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: Tips for getting the bow working better and better!
well, this is something that worked for me;
practice a long bow from frog to tip, starts by lifting the bow up in a circular motion. and placing it down nr the frog. when you get the the tip repeat.
Now imagine for a moment the bow is in 2 halves , the first half you use your shoulder, so the elbow joint doesn't move. at the halfway point the elbow kicks in and the shoulder stops.once you can successfully do this join them into a whole bow stroke, nice and slowly.
lift and repeat.
Now instead of lifting , return back the way you came elbow first, halfway, then shoulder. with a bit of care approaching the tip to make sure it stays in a straight line parallel to the bridge.on the down stroke .
Do all this with no left hand. Now try it with a scale, concentrate on intonation and harmonise with the next string. aim for a steady pleasant and strong full tone.
Enjoy Open your chest and shoulders , think about openness, relaxation large expansive movement. Its very easy , when playing ITM to tense up, get 'into' it smaller, tight motion. Part of the idea here is to counteract that tightness and go for big expansive full bows, relax your face and shoulders, what is known as the tension triangle.
Try this bowing standing , even standing on a high point, like a chair, .... but dont fall and smash yer fiddle eh
# Posted on February 15th 2008 by piobagusfidil
Re: Tips for getting the bow working better and better!
Jaysus chris! How d'ye guys go through this. FascinAtin'
Go for it though, ye make good music.
# Posted on February 15th 2008 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: Tips for getting the bow working better and better!
That's funny Dubh, glad I sounded so technical. Didn't know I had it in me. HA!
You go ahead and start talking piper-speak and our eyes will cross too, I wager!
# Posted on February 15th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Tips for getting the bow working better and better!
It never fails to get me that you guys don't see the techno part of you...nevertheless the tunes that come out of you are great.
Ye seem not to feel the music guys, but produce it anyway.
Good stuff, it's great craic. It would not get by without ye.
I just know where to put the fingers and off the music goes...thanks to whoever wrote it...much better than me at the music, thank fully.
SWFL - "feel the music" compare to what you write...how do you reconcile that? Mate, think about how the tune makes you "feel" and then what that makes you want to do on your fiddleboard. Imagine! Then you'll be fiddler extraordinaire, imho.
# Posted on February 15th 2008 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: Tips for getting the bow working better and better!
*the tune", swfl, mate. Jus listen b4 play...what do you see? ...then play.
# Posted on February 15th 2008 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: Tips for getting the bow working better and better!
Have you actually tried the fiddle DD? it aint quite as easy as all that
Your a piper right? so you gotta set up your reeds? why bother with all that , just listen and play! feck tuning , just play
# Posted on February 15th 2008 by piobagusfidil
Re: Tips for getting the bow working better and better!
Mate, I have tried fiddle, and I don't know how you guys put up with it...it destroys it for me. Too technical. I don't presume it's aesy, mate, it just not me. Once you get friendly with your reeds yer ok, just cradle them along with the pressure, ok? Gentle as she goes. The music flows then like a river, ye don't have to try too much, yer apart from it, and just have to lisen.
(Not have to keep axin' away). I appreciate it gys, don't get me rong.
# Posted on February 15th 2008 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: Tips for getting the bow working better and better!
Do you guys "picture" anything while you're playin? Or are you just concentrAtin on where y'put yer fingers.
# Posted on February 15th 2008 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: Tips for getting the bow working better and better!
I'm with dubh, just let the music do it. Bowing in Irish fiddle music is pure intuition. There are no technical exercises that can help at all. It is so far removed from the technical skills required for classical bowing that to use any of the tips helpful to a classical player may well even be detrimental.
As Dubh says, just let the music flow and don't try too hard. It doesn't matter if you get into a small tight motion. It doesn't matter if you don't get a big fat round tone. All this has nothing to do with diddley music.
Shylock asks: "Should I just play around with the bow until I start hearing what I want?" Yep
So someone says: "Pick out an easy jig to start, take a pencil ..." A PENCIL? Bloody hell
# Posted on February 15th 2008 by ...
Re: Tips for getting the bow working better and better!
I dont picture stuff really ,no, but I dont concentrate on where to put my fingers either, I am generally wrapped up in the music, being part of it in a way, allowing the tune to sing through me . In Arabic there is a great expression Bismillah. It means from god through me.
. its like that wid the fiddle too, and the bow, getting friendly with them so we can work together to create beautiful music.....
The idea with all this technical stuff is to do away with it. Really, its something you do so that you can forget about it, it just becomes a part of you, internalised. Thats the whole point, to freely sing through the instrument unconfined by physical handicaps[ as much as possible]
I like that, get friendly with your reeds
# Posted on February 15th 2008 by piobagusfidil
Re: Tips for getting the bow working better and better!
I never thought I'd see eye to eye with llig, but there you go. He's a man after me'own hart by the look, on this anyway,.
god thru me, jig., sounding very kaballah, and rightly so in this context, imho.
We do well to remember imho - this music was written by others before us, in times no longer here. It is a host that we partake of, and try to do justice to - while we are here. the music will be here long after we are not. Enjoy. and aenjoy the company of all here.
# Posted on February 15th 2008 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: Tips for getting the bow working better and better!
DD said "...this music was written..." Oh bloody hell, now you've done it!
;)
Loved your "...flows out like a river..." by the way - nice!
# Posted on February 15th 2008 by Rhod
Re: Tips for getting the bow working better and better!
Yeah...I knew I was doin the wrong thing by sayin "written", but you know...too late. What else can you say, rhod? Made up, "invented", jayz, whatddaya reckon?
This music flowz...like a river, yeah...if you can play half way good, it helps you...not the other way round. The music is eternal...like a river (hopefully)...not us(maybe). Eh.
Cheers.
# Posted on February 15th 2008 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: Tips for getting the bow working better and better!
Playin the uilleann pipes is like breathin' gently, ye concentrate on the bag and bellowin for me anyway, and let the music flow from the chanter...concentrate on yer breathin....then sometimes y'hear the music flowin'...tis magic...ye know ye didn't "write" this, but *give* it on for ye. Blessed I am for the privilege.
# Posted on February 15th 2008 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: Tips for getting the bow working better and better!
re the "flowing river" comment--
Probably the best advice I ever got about Irish tunes went something like:
This music is a series of never-ending connected notes, like a babbling brook that never stops, with "end" of the tune flowing back into the beginning like an animal that bites its own tail and forms a perfect circle. (Maybe thanks to the pipes, with their nonstop flow of air, no need to pause for a breath.)
You can get that feeling with "short bows" (up and down) but usually you it's best to slur notes together to avoid any noticeable breaks. That means not changing bow direction when you go from one string to another--"slurring across the strings."
It is totally counter-intuitive for anybody who has had some classical exposure, takes some getting used to, but it really works. It's one of the main things that makes Irish fiddle sound so different from classical violin.
# Posted on February 15th 2008 by John Galt
Re: Tips for getting the bow working better and better!
hmmm, cross-posted with DD... great minds, eh?
# Posted on February 15th 2008 by John Galt
Re: Tips for getting the bow working better and better!
Sounds like ye have two totally different animals sittin tegether playing the same music for the same effect, and producin that flowyin river! Long may they live tigether.
# Posted on February 15th 2008 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: Tips for getting the bow working better and better!
Eh,where?
# Posted on February 15th 2008 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: Tips for getting the bow working better and better!
OK, so I mixed my metaphors--you know what I mean. Worse things have happened, here on the Mustard Board. ;>}
# Posted on February 15th 2008 by John Galt
Re: Tips for getting the bow working better and better!
Wheel, I'yd hope so, anyway.
# Posted on February 15th 2008 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: Tips for getting the bow working better and better!
This mustardcolour gives me thje nitemares sometimes!
# Posted on February 15th 2008 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: Tips for getting the bow working better and better!
I hate to break the reverie, but....
Yes, you do have to "live inside the tune" to play as well as a Kevin Burke. Feel the flow, lose yourself, be a conduit for the music. Kevin himself would tell you the same.
But that's only part of it.
The other part is thousands of hours of playing, and no small amount of that with a hard-nosed attention to technique.
Years after his stint with the Bothy Band, well into his career as a brilliant fiddler, Kevin buckled down and spent some focused time refining his technique. Rumor has it he even took lessons from a violinist.
Was this "necessary?" No--obviously, he was already a respected Irish fiddler. Sure, you can play the diddley music just fine without worrying much about "technique."
But think twice before you hold Kevin Burke up as a model musician and, in the same breath, pretend that no concentrated effort is involved.
In the end, "technique" is just the motions we go through to get the sounds we want. The more closely, the deeper you learn to listen to those sounds, the more nuanced your technique will become--if you nurture those nuances.
# Posted on February 15th 2008 by Will Harmon
Re: Tips for getting the bow working better and better!
Will, sure he did. But it's soul I think we're on about I thought. You can put in as much technical effort and analysis as you like and get great, but you need soul to contribute to your liseners to your music. ITM has soul in-built, imho, if you have soul while you play it will translate through you, maybe without you even knowing...technically good or not.
Kevin is technically great, and also has great soul, imho.
# Posted on February 15th 2008 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: Tips for getting the bow working better and better!
You can do with both, mate, in great measure, is my point.
Give to your audience, not just yourself, imho.
# Posted on February 15th 2008 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: Tips for getting the bow working better and better!
You're right of course Will - it takes literally 100s if not 1000s of hours to get as good as KB. As a friend of mine said "you put in the hours, you get good - no mystery". It's the old 99% perspiration cliche, but no less true for that.
) but concentrating almost solely on playing slowly whilst being relaxed - it sounds pretty bad just now, but I'm not bothered because I feel I'm doing it 'right' this time.
But as someone else said "Practice does not make perfect, only perfect practice makes perfect." As you know, I took a 'wrong road' myself and ended up paying for it with all sorts of shoulder problems. I'm now playing just a little fiddle again (can't resist it
# Posted on February 15th 2008 by Rhod
Re: Tips for getting the bow working better and better!
I still think that KB sees the imagery, and can deliver that because of his tech expertise. This is a very fine line it seems to me in ITm. Half good on instrument + imagery, is better than 100% good technical and no vision in delivery. Soul is needed.
Over concentration on tech-analysis, may mean no soul, just good techs. Are you thinking about your audience when you play? Or not?
# Posted on February 15th 2008 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: Tips for getting the bow working better and better!
"But think twice before you hold Kevin Burke up as a model musician and, in the same breath, pretend that no concentrated effort is involved."
Will - spot on.
# Posted on February 15th 2008 by timmy!
Re: Tips for getting the bow working better and better!
"Over concentration on tech-analysis, may mean no soul, just good techs. Are you thinking about your audience when you play? Or not?"
Audience? Are you talking about performing?
# Posted on February 15th 2008 by timmy!
Re: Tips for getting the bow working better and better!
Good for you Rhod, best wishes and good luck.
# Posted on February 15th 2008 by piobagusfidil
Re: Tips for getting the bow working better and better!
Bow on a tilt, or on the flat? That's a personal choice, and there are doubtless good arguments for and against both techniques, but two points occur to me:
a) if the bow is played on the tilt a significant proportion of the hairs aren't being used – in which case why do they make bows with so many hairs (about 120)?
b) if the bow is used on the tilt then heavy bowing pressure is going to apply a lateral force to the bow stick which over a period of time with a wood bow will cause a permanent slight lateral set (which can be corrected, but would obviously cost).
# Posted on February 15th 2008 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Tips for getting the bow working better and better!
lazy - are you kiddin'? jayz, man! /read thru again...and where's the soul delivery?
Crazy - I don't know whether I'm talking about performing, are you? I'm talking about sharing, I guess.
# Posted on February 15th 2008 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: Tips for getting the bow working better and better!
I certainly do any how, I dont give a fig for those people so wrapped up in them selves that they dont care how the listeners feel about it. just do yer best and let god take care of the rest.
If I play for an audience I play differently than for myself. If I am on my own I might divert to concentrate on a tricky bit, I might just stop half way through a tune, whatever, but personally I feel a responsibility to consider those listening and I will give it my best shot.
# Posted on February 15th 2008 by piobagusfidil
Re: Tips for getting the bow working better and better!
Chill, and feel the tune-message, dudes. Picture the scenes.
Know what I'm talkin' about? or is it just me?
# Posted on February 15th 2008 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: Tips for getting the bow working better and better!
good on yer yerself, jig. We're all conduits for what has gone before, imo, and pass it on with generosity, I say. It is not meant to be an introverted techo experience. Ask KB!
# Posted on February 15th 2008 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: Tips for getting the bow working better and better!
The bow thing is interesting, I have heard it both ways, I have a habit of a slant . I figure it relates to the angle you hold the fiddle, If it is parallel to the floor then flat on, the weight of the bow will be directly over the hair, but if like me your fiddle slants down then a slant with the stick closer to me puts the weight of the stick behind the hair....
# Posted on February 15th 2008 by piobagusfidil
Re: Tips for getting the bow working better and better!
LOL!!!
It is not about you or us. You will not be here. The music will. The imagery and message will. Sorry guys, that's the reality.
# Posted on February 15th 2008 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: Tips for getting the bow working better and better!
I'm probably mistaken, but I was under the impression from the title of this discussion that it was primarily about improving bowing technique. To my mind (and ears), poor technique doesn't exactly enhance "soul delivery".
# Posted on February 15th 2008 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Tips for getting the bow working better and better!
I like your attitude DD. But let us remember that there are a lot of dry technical people and their attitudes and opinions also bear weight.
# Posted on February 15th 2008 by piobagusfidil
Re: Tips for getting the bow working better and better!
I am not knocking good bow exerise's Should have done more myself,,But when I was younger I only wanted to lear Tunes-
Not always a good thing,, But I'll tell you something that was
told to me , by a great Dundalk fiddler His mother Rose taught
him and his son Donal now a great young fiddler,,
When just learning Irish fiddle music he said- stick with jigs to learn how to control you bow better Slow at first move slowly on to moderation -faster etc , over a good period of time,, and
sometimes trying to lengthen bow strokes each time you practice - it worked for me -at the end you could flick a fly
off the wall without hitting the wall. lol.- The man who told
this is = SEE HERE=
http://www.gerryoconnor.net/reviews/irish_times_review.html
Hope this help you ,, It did me,,jim,,
# Posted on February 15th 2008 by FIDDLE4
Re: Tips for getting the bow working better and better!
Improving bowing technique, to what end. An end in itself, or to enhance the tune's message? Poor technique probably does not enhance any tune, but good technique in partnership with what you can imagine the imagery/message the tune wanting to deliver is the ticket, imo.
# Posted on February 15th 2008 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: Tips for getting the bow working better and better!
Lazy hound, you are quite correct, this is about bowing and technique, the diversion came about to remind us that, to quote James McGillivray ''there is only one reason to focus on technique, and that is so you can play better music''.
# Posted on February 15th 2008 by piobagusfidil
Re: Tips for getting the bow working better and better!
Jig, I know you appreciate what I'm on about...but it seems to me over these years there are a helluva lot of dry technical people out there playing ITM. That's great for dry technical understanding between close associates, but what about the people listening. Where's the scope for sharing and delivering to the audience? That's the roots of ITM, I feel. I mean, how well received are dry technical people anywhere...you got ta have soul! imho.
# Posted on February 15th 2008 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: Tips for getting the bow working better and better!
And let me warn you, folks, threads that I have stirred, have gone on to 300+ posts, and it will chew up your bandwidth.
So...
# Posted on February 15th 2008 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: Tips for getting the bow working better and better!
Kevin likes to tell a story about a time he played with the great swing mandolin player Jethro Burns. Burns marveled at Kevin's music, and during a break said, "You've got it--completely physically relaxed and mentally fierce."
What Kevin liked was that Jethro could hear the fierceness despite all outward appearances to the contrary.
I suspect Shylock doesn't need any help finding and expressing his "soul." What he's asking for is help with bowing.
# Posted on February 15th 2008 by Will Harmon
Re: Tips for getting the bow working better and better!
The angle of the dangle is proportional to ...
# Posted on February 15th 2008 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: Tips for getting the bow working better and better!
I can guess at what McGillivray meant, but he should stick to music. His choice of words was poor. "Better" music? Because it's technically proficient?
The only reason to focus on technique is to remove the limits on what we can express musically.
# Posted on February 15th 2008 by Will Harmon
Re: Tips for getting the bow working better and better!
Well I would agree with you. It is the same in any number of fields.
I feel that to some extent it is easier to focus on the practical aspects of music making and to lose sight of the more esoteric unquantifiable, aspects. Mainly because they are less accessable. there are few , 'how to instil your music with soul ' DVD's
# Posted on February 15th 2008 by piobagusfidil
Re: Tips for getting the bow working better and better!
Everybody SING!
Feelings.....
woh woh woh
Feelings....
woh woh woh
;>}
# Posted on February 15th 2008 by John Galt
Re: Tips for getting the bow working better and better!
oh, ok, mickr, you're an English soccer yob...LOL!
it don't mean a thing...if you ain't got that swing.
Oh, sorry....the angle of the dangle is proportional to....
# Posted on February 15th 2008 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: Tips for getting the bow working better and better!
Jig, you seem to be saying that the "soul" we put into music is "less accessible" than the technical bits.
If that's what you said above, I'd wholeheartedly (pardon the irony) have to disagree.
A life of music grants immediate, constant, rich, and full access to emotion, heart, soul, mystery, magic. All of it. If not, then it isn't music you're making.
# Posted on February 15th 2008 by Will Harmon
Re: Tips for getting the bow working better and better!
Shylock, considering the bowing advice in this thread might lead you to think there's a contradiction. Some have advised using short separate bow strokes for each note. Others have said slur several (or even many) notes on a single long bow.
Do yourself a favor and do both, and everything in between.
Bowing is simple--it goes up, or it goes down. It goes long (from tip to frog and back) or it goes short (anything less than tip to frog, down to the width of a gnat's ass). It goes lightly and soft (where your hand helps unweight the bow as it grazes the string) or it goes heavily and loud (where your hand leans on the stick and you dig the hairs into the string). It goes slowly or it goes fast. It goes smoothly, or it bounces (intentionally) on the string.
Learn all of it, in every combination of the above. Persevere, but be patient with yourself--this is a lifelong trip. Enjoy the ride. Relax. Listen like you're listening to your first-born's breathing as s/he sleeps. Loose your imagination. Try something new, hone something old. Play with others.
# Posted on February 15th 2008 by Will Harmon
Re: Tips for getting the bow working better and better!
Not unless you let it happen, imho
# Posted on February 15th 2008 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: Tips for getting the bow working better and better!
Will, really! LOL, ROFL, LOL...jayz, youz guys make a piper laugh.! Good craic. More power to your elbow!
# Posted on February 15th 2008 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: Tips for getting the bow working better and better!
Very nice, Will.
# Posted on February 15th 2008 by Rhod
Re: Tips for getting the bow working better and better!
Rhod! I thought you had converted!
# Posted on February 15th 2008 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: Tips for getting the bow working better and better!
''A life of music grants immediate, constant, rich, and full access to emotion, heart, soul, mystery, magic. All of it. If not, then it isn't music you're making.''
From your point of view fair enough, but can you not see that others may have a different approach and yet still make music?
# Posted on February 15th 2008 by piobagusfidil
Re: Tips for getting the bow working better and better!
Maybe not.
# Posted on February 15th 2008 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: Tips for getting the bow working better and better!
Okay -- I went to a Kevin Burke "house" workshop many years ago. He gave one as he was passing through the D.C. area.
And one of the comments he made was ( and I clearly remember this)
"Your technique IS your bowing/playing."
Unless you are one of those savants born with a superior knowledge of ITM fiddle playing -- who is fully developed by the age of 4 years -- you will have to go through the process of learning all the basics of playing the instrument.
As "painful" as it may be to acknowledge -- at least on the fiddle/violin, I do not think you can achieve "soulful/interpetive playing" until you have sound or better technique.
It may depend on the individual -- just how long it takes to develop that. It likely also depends on the age at which you begin. This may be part of the "language learning" ability --- which allows children to unconsciously absorb many languages before they reach a certain age. At that age (whatever it is) -- the human brain begins to settle itself -- to fuse certain patterns of neuronal connection and neglect others. After that point, learning a language is a different kind of work.
So if you began playing your fiddle as a young child, you may get to the point where you can play very expressively -- without being conscious of laboring through "baby-steps" to get there.
Otherwise -- if you have genius-level musical ability -- you are extremely lucky. If you don't -- it takes a lot of practice, over quite a long period of time -- and I think you improve by increments. It's good to appreciate each incremental improvement and each slightly greater mastery of all the technical aspects (intonation, basic bowing, developing "the swing," etc. If you don't appreciate the "small triumphs" --- you'll probably go NUTS while you're trying to reach the ultimate goal.
I think the goal of playing the fiddle with heart and soul -- of using your body and brain as a vehicle for the music to come through -- is REALISTIC. It can be achieved. But for most people, it cannot be achieved without a significant amount of effort.
Most "good things" take time and commitment.
I think the goal is the joy of playing with beauty and soul -- to fulfill yourself and hopefully spill some beauty and soulfulness outside yourself to other people.
But I do think it is by far sweeter if you have to work really hard to get there -- for most people.
If you work at it with commitment over a long period of time -- things will start to happen with your playing. Suddenly, the rhythmic quality you struggled to get in your playing will just happen.
I had my bowing technique severely criticized -- and went back to square no. 1 and learned "specific bowing patterns." Now, I spend a little part of my practice time working on slurring groups of notes with both up bow and down bow. What I was told should only be done in one direction, I want to be able to do in "both" directions from the "subconscious" level.
If you can move the bow freely in both directions, balance it and get an even tone across the most of the bow, and on all strings .....you are much more likely to be able to 'give in' to the intuitive exprssion of the tune/melody you are playing.
My opinions (and I'm sure you've had enough of them by now in this post -- so goodbye for now)
Linda
# Posted on February 15th 2008 by Fid42
Re: Tips for getting the bow working better and better!
Dubh, I'll have whatever you're smoking,
# Posted on February 15th 2008 by Will Harmon
Re: Tips for getting the bow working better and better!
Jig, I'm sorry if you find it hard to access your soul. In complete earnestness, I'd suggest that maybe playing scales and arpeggios isn't helping.
# Posted on February 15th 2008 by Will Harmon
Re: Tips for getting the bow working better and better!
It's not bad, Will, anytime mate. It grows great in hot climes here.LOL! Fiddlers geez! No end to'em! Yer great craic.
AND, it's nice to see our American friends online now at this hour of the day now. Good stuff Linda.
# Posted on February 15th 2008 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: Tips for getting the bow working better and better!
Scales and arpeggions!!! LOL...ROFL....LoL, geez...LOL...
Get on them smokin' pipes lads. Soul food.
# Posted on February 15th 2008 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: Tips for getting the bow working better and better!
Duijera Dohn't
# Posted on February 15th 2008 by Rhod
Re: Tips for getting the bow working better and better!
Ohhh, duijera doooo!
# Posted on February 15th 2008 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: Tips for getting the bow working better and better!
''Jig, I'm sorry if you find it hard to access your soul. In complete earnestness, I'd suggest that maybe playing scales and arpeggios isn't helping.''
You appear to be assuming that because I speak up for an attitude/ point of view that I take that approach. No, I learn from who ever has something to offer. I have tempered my 'fire' with cold dispassionate technique. As a result, I feel i am a more rounded and balanced individual. I am a lot better musician too. Spirit and raw guts are all very well, but they wont get you far in a game of chess.
LOL, Thanks for the advice but I can assure you i have no problems in that regard.
# Posted on February 15th 2008 by piobagusfidil
Re: Tips for getting the bow working better and better!
Uh, oh!
# Posted on February 15th 2008 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: Tips for getting the bow working better and better!
Wow, what the heck happened in here? So Rhod, how's the bowing going anyway?
Hey double D, that's some mighty craic right there. A piper telling fiddlers to stop worrying about their bowing and feel the music? If we didn't feel the music, my brother, we wouldn't be worried about crappy bowing screwing up the beautiful feel of the music, now would we?
# Posted on February 15th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Tips for getting the bow working better and better!
Umm...I hope so, but hey.
Anyway, I always appreciate a fiddler who looks out at the audience, rather than eyein' off the keyboard all the time.
# Posted on February 15th 2008 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: Tips for getting the bow working better and better!
That'd be a fretboard wouldn't it. Yep.
# Posted on February 15th 2008 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: Tips for getting the bow working better and better!
nope. finger board
dont got no frets....
# Posted on February 15th 2008 by piobagusfidil
Re: Tips for getting the bow working better and better!
jig, sorree soree boss...the fingerboards connected to the fretboard, the fretboard's connected to the...
# Posted on February 15th 2008 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: Tips for getting the bow working better and better!
Here we go...
Now, is this the 1 minute argument or the full 5 minute argument?
I think it's just contradiction...
Oh, wait - no it isn't!
# Posted on February 15th 2008 by Rhod
Re: Tips for getting the bow working better and better!
Well dude, if you have crappy piping technique but you felt the music anyway, would it do ya much good?
...and I agree, eye contact with your audience is a vital part of performing. When I perform music, I make sure I do that, but I hardly ever "perform" at a session...
[ducks, runs for cover]
# Posted on February 15th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Tips for getting the bow working better and better!
Well said Fid42 / Linda, a lovely heartfelt addition, appreciated. I'm glad I persisted long enough to read that. I'm sure you, SWFL, payed some attention to that... It applies to your previous thread, which I'd slowly backed away from as the hissing and howling began and the claws came out and the hair started flying flying...
Damn, more hair balls?
# Posted on February 15th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: Tips for getting the bow working better and better!
To my mind my main aim is too create a beautiful tone with which to play the tunes. So any and all techniques that will facilitate my own personal development are welcome. In this day and age with mass media the bar is considerably higher than even 40 yrs ago. We are surrounded by top level musicians playing their stuff on CD radio etc. .
My point is that its worth putting that effort in to put across our music we love so much.
# Posted on February 16th 2008 by piobagusfidil
Re: Tips for getting the bow working better and better!
You know c, I did miss Fid42's comment.
Thanks Linda, that's what I mean:
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/16745#comment347403
# Posted on February 16th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Tips for getting the bow working better and better!
I know its a reel cracker eh? well put ,accurate,. relevant and says it all really. Well said Linda...
# Posted on February 16th 2008 by piobagusfidil
Re: Tips for getting the bow working better and better!
True that jig!
# Posted on February 16th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Tips for getting the bow working better and better!
Part of the problem with this thread is encapsulated by Will earlier: "The only reason to focus on technique is to remove the limits on what we can express musically."
This is, of course, correct (and jig's analogy of chess is, of course, typically stupid) but something of vital importance needs to be taken into account. The amount of technique required to play diddley music even at the very highest level is capped. This is one of its greatest strengths. You only need first position and the middle third of your bow. Use more bow if you want, but never lose sight of the fact that you don't need it.
# Posted on February 16th 2008 by ...
Re: Tips for getting the bow working better and better!
re reading that post from Linda again, I'm not convinced by this line: "I do think it is by far sweeter if you have to work really hard to get there." I'm not sure that taking pride in the hard work is the right attitude.
Sure you have to put in a lot of work, but my argument is based on two connected points. 1. The music is, relatively speaking, technically and harmonically very easy. 2. The music is, relatively speaking, extremely subtle with regards to accent and rhythm, especially at the micro level. So you have to put in a lot of work. But to know the music, all you need is to put the work into learning it, learning it's subtleties. The simple techniques required will easily take care of themselves, they don't require any extra concentrated practice for their own sakes.
As Kevin Burke said: "Your technique IS your bowing/playing."
# Posted on February 16th 2008 by ...
Re: Tips for getting the bow working better and better!
Michael, I knew you'd pick up on that.
And it's why I said "thousands of hours of playing" and NOT "thousands of hours of work."
We ***play*** this music; don't think that you can get the technique for playing it by grinding it out of drills and exercises.
Again: "In the end, "technique" is just the motions we go through to get the sounds we want. The more closely, the deeper you learn to listen to those sounds, the more nuanced your technique will become--if you nurture those nuances."
# Posted on February 16th 2008 by Will Harmon
Re: Tips for getting the bow working better and better!
[erm, which is to say, I agree with Michael here]
# Posted on February 16th 2008 by Will Harmon
Re: Tips for getting the bow working better and better!
" ~ don't think that you can get the technique for playing it by grinding it out of drills and exercises." ~ Will CPT
Which will usually result in sounding like the 'grinding out of drills and exercises'...
I'd also like to add my exclamation mark to the 'play' in 'playing'..
The other potential deviance to bring light on here is the concept of emotion, subtlety as opposed to when feeling is debased to the bathetic, when it isn't subtle and the result is embarassing melodrama ~ the artificial, hackneyed ~ trite sentimental tripe... That is at least as bad as playing the music like an exercise, sawing off notes.
Bad poetry tells you what to feel, weighed down with adverbs and adjectives and emotive words instead of emotive images ~ it leaves nothing to the imagination. Good poetry creates a setting and circumstances and leaves the feeling up to you. Music can be measured similarly... There is some awful slurry out there in the way of slick music that pretends to be heartfelt, or at least sounds that way to me ~ affected. That was an intended slur, not on any single musician, so none shall be named, but on that act of abuse on the music tnat makes me cringe...
# Posted on February 16th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: Tips for getting the bow working better and better!
That's interesting ceolachan and I agree. And I'd treat the danger of bathos in the same way as the danger of 'grinding out of drills and exercises'. Never ever try to put emotion in your music. Just let it happen.
# Posted on February 16th 2008 by ...
Re: Tips for getting the bow working better and better!
The analogy of holding the bow as you would a newborn bird was used by the great classical virtuoso Yehudi Menuhin, but could easily be older. The key to using the bow as well as possible is first holding the bow well. Given that showing’s better than saying for stuff like this, here’s a good DVD with exercises designed for getting an optimal bow hold: “Techniques for the Contemporary String Player" with Julie Lyonn Lieberman.” It’s quite inexpensive on Amazon (a fraction of the price of a single lesson).
Other than that, always keep the bow parallel to the bridge, don't use more bow length than is needed (it makes the sound harsh), don't have too much tension in the hair (a common mistake among Irish fiddlers), get good rosin and don't use too much, and in general you should feel all movements of the bow originating in the forearm!
# Posted on February 16th 2008 by dsndfkjasf
Re: Tips for getting the bow working better and better!
In terms of what kinds of emotional breadth and depth a player can get into their playing, or does get into it -- I feel that has to have its basis in the core personality of the particular musician -- how that person experiences *life.*
To invest what you are playing with a certain emotional quality, you have to have access to that feeling in your gut. If your life, your background, and your extended history have schooled you to feel everything from agony to ecstacy and all the nuances in between -- and if you don't "block" yourself to a lot of these options because you think they are inappropriate -- then hints of *all* may sneak into your playing of music....and maybe weave strands comprised of "mixed emotional nuance." But you have to have a firm grip on "the middle ground" -- because anything that lives at the extremes gets to be too much very fast.
So it's more than just technique or being able to "hear" the nuances in other peoples' playing.
I think some of it has to do with ....(and this sounds so lame in a way)......are you in touch with your emotions? If you are, and you can get a command of essential technique -- hopefully you can tap into your emotional "core" when you play.
Linda
# Posted on February 16th 2008 by Fid42
Re: Tips for getting the bow working better and better!
* drills and exercises ~ yes, they can help to loosen you up, and make you aware of where the dreaded beast 'tension' might be creeping in ~ and give you a way to cure that before it really 'cramps' your style...but I'm still with the main camp in believing that playing the music is the best direction to take, where the main focus should be... Even there we have a natural tendency to create our own exercises and drills, when some small part of a tune or turn needs attention and we make it into a unit of exercise, slowing down and playing it repeatedly until we have the sound we want, tone and definition...
~ "holding the bow as you would a newborn bird" ~ a superb analogy whoever the source. I'd imagine it was older, but would love to hear that proven, maybe 1700s?
* lush ~ the overbearing need to slurp all over the music, to get in it's way... In a sense the difference could be described as 'performing', affecting the music, putting yourself and your emotions on show, forcing it, going OTT ~ as opposed to just being at one with the music and yourself. As an example of the worst excess here, on recordings, listen to Sean Maguire's brutal treatment of airs... Sorry, but it makes me gag. That said, there are other things he's done I've been impressed with, but not his playing of airs...
* Llig: "Never ever try to put emotion in your music. Just let it happen." ~ !
* Fid42: "mixed emotional nuance." But you have to have a firm grip on "the middle ground" -- because anything that lives at the extremes gets to be too much very fast."
* 'c': Yes! ~ the key word being 'nuance'...
articulation ~ the bow as breath, consonants, vowels, syllables... Will's and Fid42's previous comments weave to this end, that it's good to explore all possibilities and in that exploration make decisions that lead toward an individual voice. It may have a link to character and personality, you may like the rhythmic cut of the short bow more than the slur of the long, you might decide you prefer bowed triplets to a roll. You should have and do have free choice. Don't let drives toward standardization spoil your finding your own way with this music, with the bow or however you articulate your chosen instrument. Learn from what came before, try those options, but in the end make your own decisions, based on the tradition you've chosen to become a part of...
I have an interest in language and languages too, no gift there, but an interest. When I was travelling I took note of how non-English speakers felt about what they heard of English, and they made me more aware of the music of natural languages, from the monotone to the sung. They favoured hearing it sung, and I agree, and I also feel that is true of the bow, and that is not only in the 'cut', the change of bow direction, but in the wide and wonderful world of dynamics that can also help to give that life of 'song', 'dance', to a melody. I was enjoying some Paddy Canny recently and he definitely has fun with those possibilities, and then some...
# Posted on February 16th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: Tips for getting the bow working better and better!
I agree with the man who is drunk on music -- here! I think the use of a range of dynamics combined with bow attack and perhaps a bit of a slip-and-slide into a note here and there -- all these things help the music to "tell a story" which is not articulated in words, but through an interplay of feelings that can be evoked.
The modes of the tunes will lay down a basic framework for a "musical conversation." Within a given mode, there are many opportunities for insinuating small subtle statements -- of playfulness, or strength, or fragility, or a moment of dazzling "pure light" (perhaps when you try to give a note at the apex of a phrase some extra time and fullness of tone so it will "glow" or jump out from the other notes it is "packed between." Or maybe it's a nuance of something dark, some sorrow lurking beneath the "joy." To my ear, actually, the uillean pipes are masterful at delivering this quality of sound -- but I think it can be done on many instruments and certanly on the fiddle. You can be funny/droll, or sly, dark and then light, light and then dark, wide open --- or secretive. You can "explore."
# Posted on February 16th 2008 by Fid42
Re: Tips for getting the bow working better and better!
I think I should clarify my position a bit here. I am firmly with the tune playng camp. Drills and exercises are a means to an end. They are a small tool in the fiddlers toolbox. That said, when you need a specific tool you cant just pull out any old hammer or screwdriver.
My argument re scales, and bowing exercises is that we isolate complex mechanical motions to focus on them in order to bring them back in with greater control over them. . This I think we all do, with aspects of a tune that might trouble us.
For me it was essential to divorce the technical aspects from 'playing'. To deal with the tricky process of learning the bow without also attempting to conform to complex set forms; tunes.
I see so many beginning fiddlers who cant hold a tune, or play in tune, yet they know lots of tunes? They sit in sessions hiding behind the boxes. Now I am not critisising this, if it works for them, they get to play in sessions, thats fine. more power to their elbow. But why not spend some time on actually getting a good sound?
If you have been playing a while, and you cant hold a tune or play in tune then some technical work could do wonders for your playing. Its that simple. but its all to do with playing the tunes.
# Posted on February 16th 2008 by piobagusfidil
Re: Tips for getting the bow working better and better!
I like what Linda posted above--reminds me of a line I heard or read somewhere (maybe Ciaran Carson's "Last Night Fun"?) that a certain musician could make "each note seem like the most important thing in the world at the moment it was being played."
I suppose it's possible to go overboard with such an approach (mebbe not?), but it certainly helps my own connection with the music--which is an instantaneous multi-channel two-way exchange--to be conscious in some part of my mind of the nuances possible with each and every note (and silence between the notes).
Just a thought, after playing tunes till the wee hours last night/this morning....
# Posted on February 16th 2008 by Will Harmon
Re: Tips for getting the bow working better and better!
.''each note seem like the most important thing in the world at the moment it was being played''
Sounds right to me......And every tune.
# Posted on February 16th 2008 by piobagusfidil
Re: Tips for getting the bow working better and better!
Well, nice to agree on something, jig.
# Posted on February 16th 2008 by Will Harmon
Re: Tips for getting the bow working better and better!
I just finished 45 minutes of practicing -- playing -- working on a reel I am learning from Brendan's playing on the Millenium Stage archives (Kennedy Center) year 2001.
What I noticed is that I do more-or-less design my own "technical exercises" in the context of learning, working on, playing a tune. I might experiment with different ways of playing a tune with my left hand, and then experiment with the bow to try different ways of attacking, slipping into or sliding into a note. But what I stop playing the whole tune and work on one phrase, and the technique to play that phrase different ways.
My work on technique is "in the service of playing music" -- not the other way around.
Maybe I am missing the sound of a note in a phrase, because I can't catch the string on an upbow for the milli-second that is needed (it's going fast, the note isn't accented, and the accented note is on a downbow; HOWEVER, if I miss that little note altogether, something is "missing" and I can hear it. If I don't have the technique/flexibility to catch a millisecond of a note beginning from an upbow -- I won't be able to play smoothly when I want to. I might get choppiness where I don't want it.
My ability to get a strong tone on the G string and to rock between the G and the D has increased 100% in the last year. This is because I worked on the technique --- not because I want to take my fiddle out of the case and play a rocking bowing pattern for an hour -- because I want to be able to play TUNES with a sense of freedom and enjoyment.
In a way, playing an instrument could be a sort-of athletics -- on a limited scale. You don't use as much of your body -- but it requires fine-tuning the motions you use and developing muscle memory.
I can do things on the fiddle without struggling at all now, that I had to struggle with one or two years ago. I enjoy playing more, my playing sounds more musical, and altogether, the pleasure just gets greater. Why? Because I worked on my technique. I do spend a tiny amount of time playing scales -- not much -- but hells bells -- it doesn't hurt me.
Oh, and here is an insight for you. I met Donna Long's mother at a concert a few years ago, in a suburb of Baltimore. The concert was given by Donna Long, Jessie Smith and Yvonne Kane (who was married to Jessie at that time). I was talking to Donna's mother at some point during a break or after the concert. I was talking about Jessie's fiddle playing - admiring his virtuosity.
Donna's mother said -- "Well, he works very hard at it. They both work very hard at it." She added something like "I've seen them" (....working very hard at it).
And Donna once said to me about learning the fiddle, "It's a labor of love." She plays the fiddle as well as the piano, y'know.
Linda
That would be her daughter and her grandson.
# Posted on February 16th 2008 by Fid42
Re: Tips for getting the bow working better and better!
Uh -- typos and phrases that wind up hanging on the end of a post -- gross mistakes in the use of the English language ---- show up in my posts -- but I'm not practicing for a "grammar bee" here. Please ignore mistakes.
I just HATE proofreading my posts and often don't do it.
Obviously I meant to say "What I do IS STOP PLAYING THE WHOLE TUNE" (and invent a sort of technical exercise which addresses a problem I've having in PLAYING SOME TUNE.
Linda
# Posted on February 16th 2008 by Fid42
Re: Tips for getting the bow working better and better!
Well, it's as well you clarified that, Linda, as you know, if you didn't, you could be hauled through a hedge backwards on these boards.
Cheers.
# Posted on February 16th 2008 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: Tips for getting the bow working better and better!
What a great thread this turned out to be, disregarding the bits that were 'up to our knees in muck', thank you Linda, 'c', Will and even Jig (near the end). Well worth the sift through for swallowed diamonds, and some great advice for one old scraper, at least, on a quest to release some beautiful tunes blocked within. Thank you guys and gals. Loverly.
# Posted on February 17th 2008 by Clear Drops
Re: Tips for getting the bow working better and better!
Again, a polarisation:
From Kevin Burke: "Your technique IS your bowing/playing."
From Jig: "It's essential to divorce the technical aspects from 'playing' "
# Posted on February 17th 2008 by ...
Re: Tips for getting the bow working better and better!
Me too Linda, me too...
Howdy Clear Drops... Hey, what ever happened to Shylock? Good to see you're still hanging on Llig (~ you do know I say that in Welsh with a grin don't you? Your second reversal comes off sounding Yiddish... 
)
# Posted on February 17th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: Tips for getting the bow working better and better!
Michael doesn't have reversals - he has deferred successes...
# Posted on February 17th 2008 by Steve Shaw
Re: Tips for getting the bow working better and better!
I was going to post something last night (gave up 'cos, after the second bottle, I found it kept disappearing ... and then I fell asleep) - (a) in support of Mac, because I think it's good to have someone point out idiocies when they occur, because otherwise there's a danger some may think they're unchallenged fact; and (b) to say, about bowing:
). For instance, a fiddle can be played with one of those enormous 3,648 bass button piano accordion thingies just as well as with a lone tin whistle. Prefer the latter, though ...
People have said, a long way above, that you should play with the bow on a slant. Others have said that you should play with the bow hairs flat. Firstly, if you do play with the hairs tilted, play with the wood part tilted *away* from you, not towards you as would have been implied (though I'm not sure if it was meant) by jig's post some way back. Secondly, and much more importantly, you shoud be able to play with the bow tilted or flat as the occasion demands. You need every technique if you're going to get a full range of sounds.
The fiddle is an amazingly versatile instrument, and you should use all of its capabilities (well, a lot of them anyway!
# Posted on February 17th 2008 by ethical blend
Thank you...great stuff!
Hello to everyone,
I posted this and didn't get time to join in, but wow this is what it's all about...sure have taken note of very many wise stetments here...won't say which ones there were so many...but information like this is like a shot in the arm for me to get back and 'play' with that bow more and more until I can get more 'life' out of it, until I start making evry note 'sound' like the greatest note I ever played.
A huge thank you to all
Shylock
# Posted on February 17th 2008 by Shylock
Re: Tips for getting the bow working better and better!
I think you're as capable of talking about bowing as anyone else, Steve. Or slucking for that matter ...
# Posted on February 17th 2008 by ethical blend
Re: Tips for getting the bow working better and better!
I have to sit next to a fiddle player for four hours every Friday. Shirley that qualifies me...
# Posted on February 17th 2008 by Steve Shaw
Re: Tips for getting the bow working better and better!
Of course it qualifies you. And don't call me Shirley ...
[I presume you were looking for that last response ...]
# Posted on February 17th 2008 by ethical blend
Re: Tips for getting the bow working better and better!
Ha ha!
# Posted on February 17th 2008 by Clear Drops
Re: Tips for getting the bow working better and better!
Get back to your drip!
(And look out for MP3s over the next few days - once I've finished turning my compost.)
# Posted on February 17th 2008 by ethical blend
Re: Tips for getting the bow working better and better!
Hey, some nice folks have made a show, hi Ben & Clear Drops, nice to see you hangin' about. Howdy Stevie, how's it blowin.?
)
With this approach let's go to Ezra Pound, his way with diluting the word and content of poetry, and we'll bring in the Imagists here, to give the content the focus rather than our clumsy interpretation of it, to lay bare the melody and the dance in it before we get overly personal with it and start twiddling it to death... Speed and an inconsiderate approach to 'showing what we can do' can kill any life, lift or dance the melody is capable of. We want it to live, not to be weighed down with as much crap as we can pile on the back of this donkey ~ to the point that we cripple it and it hobbles. We want to respect the freedom of the tune and go along with that and the dance in it instead of working against that with our own interferences.
Don't jump on me, I'm glad to see you all, but I'm raising the issue of an fresh stab, a potentially fatal fang attack, one that is personal, in the sense that an individual is being used as an 'example' for something that would do better on its own, as a 'general' statement of opinion... Here's that potentially fatal strike in replay:
* jig: "Clear drops, I have seen and heard you play. You would do well to drop the ornaments and focus on:
~ bowing
~ rhythm (and probably)
~ intonation ( ~ though I cant rightly remember...
~ A tune has to be danceable. Its that simple.
You can take my advice or not. Good luck. Remember we are all on this journey together."
* c: Ouch! I winced when I saw that initially. I just don't see the need for making someone the scapegoat of an 'example', whether or not you've heard them or actually feel that way about their playing. I can even say this about certain a*sholes I know who can't play worth shight. In fact shight is worth more for composting that what they do to terrorize folks with their attempts at making music. BUT ~ I wouldn't name them or make an exhibition of them or parade them in front of others as an example of what I dislike or think needs attention. Besides, in the worst cases, they actually are deluded to the point of thinking they're good, so no amount of harangue will change that. They are too egomaniacal to respond to even the best intentioned contstructive criticism. So, why drag Clear Drops into something that could potentially be a good talking point instead of raising hackles and increasing the angst that has already had air on this thread ~ and for which the wisdom of our Webmaster, Jeremy, has seen fit to delete.
I slipped in 'constructive criticism'... Even on a one-to-one or group teaching situation, the worst you can do is just criticize, just say the negative. First, it will always weigh more to a developing musician, or to anyone for that matter. So, you have to at least try to balance it, actually over balance it, in favour of the positive, to let people know what you appreciated, what they do well, so they have something to hold on to when you tell them what isn't working as good as it could. Even then, the negative can be directed to the positive, in how you phrase it, or how you teach instead of condemn, direct their energies and passion instead of p*ssin' on them.
This is from experience, because I have had my moments of fault here. I have been unfair and inconsiderate. I don't know about the rest of you, but where this music is concerned, or dance for that matter, or anything, when I've slammed the door in somebody's face ~ I hate it. I feel it. I also know how hard it is to undo the damage once you've been that clumsy with someone else's feelings. It's awful. I have my weak moments, but it isn't something I like or want to repeat, and I try now to be more aware. I can easily say that is a goal, to be more aware and considerate of others, so that I can nurture rather than hamper. This doesn't apply to as*holes though. I don't intend to give in there, but to try to avoid or back away before I let fly. But, I don't always succeed there.
Here's the gist of this particular contribution of jig's, which applies to me and anyone, not just dear Clear Drops ~ things to consider ~
~ to 'drop the ornaments' and focus on:
~ bowing
~ rhythm
~ intonation
~ the dance in dance music...
When I'm in that position, teaching or sharing, this is pretty much part of where I go. I try to get them to slow down, to drop all fingered ornamentation, and to focus on what they can do with the articulation of the rhythm and phrasing to help detail the dance in the music, and to focus on the quality of their tone, intonation, to find the 'dance' in dance music. It will also help with airs in the long run too... So, long sentences and short phrase, Nathaniel Hawthorn and Ernest Hemingway...
So, focusing on the bow, which is what attracts me to such threads, to that articulation, is great, but why make it a personal attack. Whether that was the intention or not, that is how I read that opening, and why I winced. I left this thread, I came back, got really interested again with what Linda and others were saying, and then things went sour again...
Yes, a good suggestion was there, but it was lessened by the way it was delivered. Anyone that comes under my wing gets something similar suggested, to leave some things alone for a spell and focus on the basics. The bow has always been more important in my sense of things than the fingered ornaments. It is what draws my attention and makes my feet move, gets them tapping, and lifts my heart and makes me take the music personal, personal in a good and community way, that sharing. I love seeing the bow 'dance', watching it move, at least in the hands of someone with at least a reasonable understanding of this. There are others that make me seasick if I watch what they do ~ but I'm not naming names...
# Posted on February 17th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: Tips for getting the bow working better and better!
This subject is also being extended topic wise here ~
Discussion: Technical or playful bowing/playing
# Posted on February 17th 2008 by Shylock
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/16763
# Posted on February 17th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: Tips for getting the bow working better and better!
Jeez whats the problem. I have been trying to help people without nameing names, so I decided to be direct. Its not an attack! A piece of frindly advice, followed by; '' we are all on this journey together. Here is someone CD who wants to improve, if she takes my advice I honestly feel she will. If she carries on playing tunes as some people suggest, stuck out in the wildlands how is she going to achieve her aims? without constructive critisism. Not destructive , but heartfelt understanding and empathy. I feel for you and I am saying clearly to you if you want to get better follow C's advice above.
My first post; ''well, this is something that worked for me;
practice a long bow from frog to tip, starts by lifting the bow up in a circular motion. and placing it down nr the frog. when you get the the tip repeat.
Now imagine for a moment the bow is in 2 halves , the first half you use your shoulder, so the elbow joint doesn't move. at the halfway point the elbow kicks in and the shoulder stops.once you can successfully do this join them into a whole bow stroke, nice and slowly.
lift and repeat.
Now instead of lifting , return back the way you came elbow first, halfway, then shoulder. with a bit of care approaching the tip to make sure it stays in a straight line parallel to the bridge.on the down stroke .
Do all this with no left hand. Now try it with a scale, concentrate on intonation and harmonise with the next string. aim for a steady pleasant and strong full tone.
Enjoy Open your chest and shoulders , think about openness, relaxation large expansive movement. Its very easy , when playing ITM to tense up, get 'into' it smaller, tight motion. Part of the idea here is to counteract that tightness and go for big expansive full bows, relax your face and shoulders, what is known as the tension triangle.
Try this bowing standing , even standing on a high point, like a chair''.
# Posted on February 17th 2008 by piobagusfidil
Re: Tips for getting the bow working better and better!
Okay Jig -- I would venture -- it depends on whether when you start out -- your goal is simply to deliver information -- or whether your goal is to deliver information kindly. In the first instance, you are so intent on delivering information, you don't consider how you are going to package the information. In the second instance, before you begin the delivery of the information you consider the "packaging." Is the packaging blunt, is it gentle, is it serious or ironic. When the package arrives at the recipient's doorstep, and said "R" first encounters the "Package" -- what is R's gut response going to be. When you get ready to deliver the information, the question is, are you going to deliver it as in "instance 1" or as in "instance 2." I will say, I have put my foot in my mouth up to me knee many times --- delivering information of various sorts to people without considering the packaging. Perhaps the information was valuable, but the packaging did not make the information easy to receive.
I learned that for me -- taking care with the packaging could eliminate sudden realization that I might have made someone feel quite badly, and it wasn't necessary. I have honestly done this and nearly kicked myself around the block, realizing that I probably hurt someone's feelings badly. Then I wondered WHY. Why did I say it that way? I believe in honesty, but I also believe in kindness. Just some thoughts I'm having......
Linda
# Posted on February 17th 2008 by Fid42
Re: Tips for getting the bow working better and better!
You're bashing your heads against a brick wall with the jig fellow. He's simply not bright enough to see his own inconsistencies and contradictions. And he's too proud to acknowledge them when clearly pointed out. But worst of all, he's too arrogant to even consider any other view than his own. Sure, he posts some good stuff now and again, but judging by the amount he posts, the monkey and the complete works of Shakespeare springs to mind. And like a petulant child, he lashes out.
From Kevin Burke: "Your technique IS your bowing/playing."
From Jig, "For me it was essential to divorce the technical aspects from 'playing'." (copy/pasted)
# Posted on February 18th 2008 by ...
Tips for the bow!
"One of the things which Jessie said that stuck in my mind was about Michael Coleman. We had played her several recordings of great players to listen to but she singled him out and told me
"He finds the soul of his instrument". Nobody had ever told me before that musical instruments even had souls! That was an exciting bit of news - another revelation! "
http://www.kevinburke.com/html_home.html
# Posted on February 19th 2008 by Ben Steen