Re: If we like songs so much, why not include them at a "session"
You already know the answer, BB. When a singer begins, the fabulously talented musicians are either rendered redundant or reduced to playing second fiddle as backing musicians, we couldn't have that now, could we?
Re: If we like songs so much, why not include them at a "session"
Bliss, you're just at the wrong sessions.
We get songs every night--us musicians ask for them. Maybe we're just lucky--we have some very good singers in our circle, and we all like joining in on the choruses.
Re: If we like songs so much, why not include them at a "session"
We also have two great singers at our various sessions in town - a transplanted Scotsman and a nice chap from Manchester UK. Both are great backers and always start their song contributions with perfect timing in natural breaks between sets. However, I agree with Jig to some degree as well. I grow weary when somebody insists on singing all 78 verses of "And the Band Played Waltzing Matilda..."
Re: If we like songs so much, why not include them at a "session"
Hang on, I have no problem with songs or singing, dont get the wrong idea. I am a singer myself , not that I do much anymore. . I just mentioned a couple of reasons why songs might be unwelcome.
I noticed exactly those two points at a session on sunday, the singer was drunk, too quiet and was expected to go on for ages, I was invited out for a smoke on that expectation. but I dont smoke so hung in there and he finished about 13 verses short[ to a general feeling of relief ]
Re: If we like songs so much, why not include them at a "session"
Surprising answers so far, but the "die-hards" have not responded.
Take Molloy's in Westport. Not a chance of a song at all, strictly forbidden, unless Mr Molloy is there, and he will call for singers. Now this could be a business move, or he could be trying to make it like a real "traditional" session.
Many pubs in Belfast, no chance of a song. And in many places now, in the north of Ireland, it is the same. Songs are a no go.
As for drunks and people going on too long, have youse no control of people. Two short words usually solves the problem, the second of which is "off".
Re: If we like songs so much, why not include them at a "session"
LOL BB, but you gotta respect some folk, the old boys who been drinkin and singing in that pub before I was born.... Rather you than me!
I learnt a great song from a recording at Mr Malloys, and If I was gonna sing a song there Id f***in sing it before I got chucked out.
Thats a bit sad though int 'it? no singing? well Theres always a call for Cunas round here when some one starts a song. Not when I sing mind you
Re: If we like songs so much, why not include them at a "session"
Some people get too wrapped up with what the music should and shouldn't be, and get too stuffy for their own good. They create rules where no rules need to exist. They walk around being angry and indignant about people not following these rules, as if they found them on a stone tablet on some mountainside. Sometimes they irritate me, but then I realize that they are their own worst enemies, and I realize how lucky I am not to be a stuck up jerk like them, and I end up feeling pretty good. Which makes me feel like singing a nice jolly song, the kind that everyone in the pub likes to sing along with.....
Re: If we like songs so much, why not include them at a "session"
We have lots of songs at our dos. But it's mostly the blokes who come every week so we don't have that risk of unknown singers who turn out to be crud then want to keep going all night. In that regard there wouldn't seem to be too much difference between singers and musicians.
Re: If we like songs so much, why not include them at a "session"
It is a Catch 22. It's great when you get people who sing well and choose good material.
I do recall specifically an instance of listening to a very new session attendee beginning to warble away at some trad song -- text half as long as the Encyclopedia Britannica.... in one of our sessions.
She warbled on and she was just an awful singer. I hate to even say that -- but she was. The tolerance demonstrated was beyond the call of duty, and I think people were "hitting their cups" pretty hard. So you never quite know what's coming down the pike
Re: If we like songs so much, why not include them at a "session"
We have a lovely singer at our session who does just a few each time, always varies the material and has a great strong voice. Unfortunately, the pub is fairly large, and can be kind of noisy, so noisy that the publican ( who loves a song or 2, and may even have a soft spot for the lady in question) keeps trying to push a microphone at her. We are resisting so far....
Re: If we like songs so much, why not include them at a "session"
The trouble with singers is that their material is given too much reverence. Because the ballad I'm going to sing is over 400 hundred years old, I think it's worth singing every one of the thirty-seven verses, and slowly, mind you, so we can fully appreciate their meaning. And it doesn't matter that I sing off key and have no sense of rhythm because the song is so, like you know, valid today.
Me, I like a good old sing song that players and singers can join in on. The long unaccompanied ballads should stay firmly locked away in the singarounds.
Re: If we like songs so much, why not include them at a "session"
I think DonaldK has hit the nail on the head. A good song deserves a bit of quiet if not total silence and indeed reverence.
A good session can carry on while all about is mayhem.
People often meet in session pubs just to chat with good background music, not to shut up and listen to songs.
Re: If we like songs so much, why not include them at a "session"
"Why not include them at a session""?
Well, whose session is it? Is there some high priest in charge at said session whom hath decreed "There shall be no songs"? A session should be something more liberal and cooperative, I should think.
Most of the above entries I tend to sympathize with, though. I recall a session over here where there were one or two hangers-on who either filled a seat while knitting or banged a bodhran while waiting to "star" again with their amazing singing talents. It got tired after awhile, and it can be tough on the instrumentalists having to "wait it out".
No real point, I guess, but hey, what the heck.
Re: If we like songs so much, why not include them at a "session"
Given the choice of
a. playing tunes "while all about is mayhem"
b. "chatting (in the pub) with good background music"
c. "shutting up and listening to songs"
I'd go a-b-c in that order.
As for " If we like songs so much, why not include them at a "session" ", that's a BIG "if"
Re: If we like songs so much, why not include them at a "session"
Wow, we don't get that at all, people who can't sing trying to sing. That's really lousy, sorry to hear about that, everyone. People ask me to sing, I must be able to do so fairly well, so I'm told, I mean, they keep asking me to, so... I ask others to sing who I know can. I don't ask people who can't sing to sing, and people who can't certainly don't ask to! Bizarre! All it takes to have a bit of decent singing at sessions is a little authority with taste and common sense. Works for us!
Re: If we like tune so much, why not include them at a "singing session"
Every time someone asks about tunes or favourite tunes we get lots of contributions.
But if we dare to suggest a tune at many singing sessions, we get evil looks and sneered at, and then talked about.
Any particular reason for this?
Not all musicians can sing.
Many singers are not musicians.
Re: If we like songs so much, why not include them at a "session"
Mmm. I'm not sure that you can be musical and not be able to sing. Like, if you were tone deaf (which precious few people actually are) I don't see how you could be anything other than a very mechanical player. I don't think the resulting sound would be very musical.
The voice just happens to be the most expressive musical instrument known to mankind. Like any other instrument it takes practise to play it well.
You get some great singers with not particularly good voices just like you can have great fiddlers playing a duff fiddle.
Similarly, you get some people with great voices who are not great singers just as you get some poor fiddlers with great instruments.
But I would say that the vast majority (i.e., >99%) of musicians could sing if they practised. They may not have great voices but they could sing nevertheless.
Re: If we like songs so much, why not include them at a "session"
I always maintain that you could wander into many pubs in rural Ireland and start playing a few tunes maybe in the hope of getting a bit of a session going. Pubs that don't usually have music in them. Within ten minutes somebody will want to sing or suggest you call up 'Mick' from the bar to sing a song. After a void of another ten minutes of coaxing from the patrons Mick will then go into overdrive and when he finishes he will call on Paddy for a song 'The noble call' as it's termed around the Cork area. You're idea of a session has bit the dust, but by God didn't the locals enjoy it. "Come back again soon...ya hear" Not bloody likely.!!!
Re: If we like songs so much, why not include them at a "session"
We have a singing barman at our pub. Everyone shuts up if they hope to get their next pint in a timely fashion.
But the people that frequent the pub have learned to shush for songs -- a regular feature at our sessions. Often it's the aforementioned barman, but it also comes from session participants who can also sing as well as people near the session who are known singers.
The trick is you can only ask the crowd to shush a limited amount of times before they'll go from appreciating the song to resenting being shushed. Now and then we get a clueless newcomer who will ignore the request. The last time was on a Tuesday night when a local fiddler named Jenny, who has a great knack for the unaccompanied singing style, was asked (by yours truly) to please sing a song. There was one gal at the bar who refused to shush and continued blabbing on in the classic style of the Ugly American. I shushed one more time and she yelled, "IT'S A BAR!!!!"
This happened very close to the end and as I was leaving I went up to her and said, "It's not just a "bar," it's an Irish pub; something you'll never understand.
" Her reply was to say, "F@#%K YOU!"
Re: If we like songs so much, why not include them at a "session"
I've been to loads of real sessions, though sadly there are just not that many singers here. When one does turn up we like nothing better than hearing a song, but as they hardly ever do 99% of the sessions are all tunes.
If we like songs so much, why not include them at a "session"
If we like songs so much, why not include them at a "session"
Every time someone asks about songs or favourite songs we get lots of contributions.
But if we dare to suggest a song at many sessions, we get evil looks and sneered at, and then talked about.
Any particular reason for this?
# Posted on February 14th 2008 by bodhran bliss
Re: If we like songs so much, why not include them at a "session"
You already know the answer, BB. When a singer begins, the fabulously talented musicians are either rendered redundant or reduced to playing second fiddle as backing musicians, we couldn't have that now, could we?
# Posted on February 15th 2008 by strayaway
Re: If we like songs so much, why not include them at a "session"
Well, half hearted singers who cant be heard, going on for 15 vrs?enough said?
perhaps they are concerned the singer, once started, wont shut up.?
# Posted on February 15th 2008 by jig
Re: If we like songs so much, why not include them at a "session"
Bliss, you're just at the wrong sessions.
We get songs every night--us musicians ask for them. Maybe we're just lucky--we have some very good singers in our circle, and we all like joining in on the choruses.
# Posted on February 15th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: If we like songs so much, why not include them at a "session"
Sure bb, we sing all the time, every session, at least 3 or 4 times. Stop on by the pub, it's a short walk from Antrim to Lee County Florida, right?
# Posted on February 15th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: If we like songs so much, why not include them at a "session"
We also have two great singers at our various sessions in town - a transplanted Scotsman and a nice chap from Manchester UK. Both are great backers and always start their song contributions with perfect timing in natural breaks between sets. However, I agree with Jig to some degree as well. I grow weary when somebody insists on singing all 78 verses of "And the Band Played Waltzing Matilda..."
It's all about the material and timing I guess
# Posted on February 15th 2008 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: If we like songs so much, why not include them at a "session"
There were songs at 9 of the 11 sessions I went to in Clare in January.
# Posted on February 15th 2008 by GaryAMartin
Re: If we like songs so much, why not include them at a "session"
Bliss, Guess you should stay away from sessions where jig plays! Too bad, he seems like such an easy-going sort......
# Posted on February 15th 2008 by AlBrown
Re: If we like songs so much, why not include them at a "session"
Hang on, I have no problem with songs or singing, dont get the wrong idea. I am a singer myself , not that I do much anymore. . I just mentioned a couple of reasons why songs might be unwelcome.
I noticed exactly those two points at a session on sunday, the singer was drunk, too quiet and was expected to go on for ages, I was invited out for a smoke on that expectation. but I dont smoke so hung in there and he finished about 13 verses short[ to a general feeling of relief ]
# Posted on February 15th 2008 by jig
Re: If we like songs so much, why not include them at a "session"
Surprising answers so far, but the "die-hards" have not responded.
Take Molloy's in Westport. Not a chance of a song at all, strictly forbidden, unless Mr Molloy is there, and he will call for singers. Now this could be a business move, or he could be trying to make it like a real "traditional" session.
Many pubs in Belfast, no chance of a song. And in many places now, in the north of Ireland, it is the same. Songs are a no go.
As for drunks and people going on too long, have youse no control of people. Two short words usually solves the problem, the second of which is "off".
# Posted on February 15th 2008 by bodhran bliss
Re: If we like songs so much, why not include them at a "session"
Evil vibes directed at singers are from people who can't sing, and are envious.
They automatically assume that the singing incomer can't cut the mustard, either.
Trouble is, this is sometimes exactly the case.
# Posted on February 15th 2008 by nicholas
Re: If we like songs so much, why not include them at a "session"
LOL BB, but you gotta respect some folk, the old boys who been drinkin and singing in that pub before I was born.... Rather you than me!
I learnt a great song from a recording at Mr Malloys, and If I was gonna sing a song there Id f***in sing it before I got chucked out.
Thats a bit sad though int 'it? no singing? well Theres always a call for Cunas round here when some one starts a song. Not when I sing mind you
# Posted on February 15th 2008 by jig
Re: If we like songs so much, why not include them at a "session"
Some people get too wrapped up with what the music should and shouldn't be, and get too stuffy for their own good. They create rules where no rules need to exist. They walk around being angry and indignant about people not following these rules, as if they found them on a stone tablet on some mountainside. Sometimes they irritate me, but then I realize that they are their own worst enemies, and I realize how lucky I am not to be a stuck up jerk like them, and I end up feeling pretty good. Which makes me feel like singing a nice jolly song, the kind that everyone in the pub likes to sing along with.....
# Posted on February 15th 2008 by AlBrown
Re: If we like songs so much, why not include them at a "session"
We have lots of songs at our dos. But it's mostly the blokes who come every week so we don't have that risk of unknown singers who turn out to be crud then want to keep going all night. In that regard there wouldn't seem to be too much difference between singers and musicians.
# Posted on February 15th 2008 by Steve Shaw
Re: If we like songs so much, why not include them at a "session"
It is a Catch 22. It's great when you get people who sing well and choose good material.
I do recall specifically an instance of listening to a very new session attendee beginning to warble away at some trad song -- text half as long as the Encyclopedia Britannica.... in one of our sessions.
She warbled on and she was just an awful singer. I hate to even say that -- but she was. The tolerance demonstrated was beyond the call of duty, and I think people were "hitting their cups" pretty hard. So you never quite know what's coming down the pike
Linda
# Posted on February 15th 2008 by Fid42
Re: If we like songs so much, why not include them at a "session"
We have a lovely singer at our session who does just a few each time, always varies the material and has a great strong voice. Unfortunately, the pub is fairly large, and can be kind of noisy, so noisy that the publican ( who loves a song or 2, and may even have a soft spot for the lady in question
) keeps trying to push a microphone at her. We are resisting so far....
# Posted on February 15th 2008 by whistlers brother
Re: If we like songs so much, why not include them at a "session"
The trouble with singers is that their material is given too much reverence. Because the ballad I'm going to sing is over 400 hundred years old, I think it's worth singing every one of the thirty-seven verses, and slowly, mind you, so we can fully appreciate their meaning. And it doesn't matter that I sing off key and have no sense of rhythm because the song is so, like you know, valid today.
Me, I like a good old sing song that players and singers can join in on. The long unaccompanied ballads should stay firmly locked away in the singarounds.
# Posted on February 15th 2008 by DonaldK
Re: If we like songs so much, why not include them at a "session"
Ha.
Last time I was at Matt Molloy's, all they did was sing.
Oireachtas though.
# Posted on February 15th 2008 by Hugo Chavez
Re: If we like songs so much, why not include them at a "session"
I think DonaldK has hit the nail on the head. A good song deserves a bit of quiet if not total silence and indeed reverence.
A good session can carry on while all about is mayhem.
People often meet in session pubs just to chat with good background music, not to shut up and listen to songs.
# Posted on February 15th 2008 by RockyRoader
Re: If we like songs so much, why not include them at a "session"
"Why not include them at a session""?
Well, whose session is it? Is there some high priest in charge at said session whom hath decreed "There shall be no songs"? A session should be something more liberal and cooperative, I should think.
Most of the above entries I tend to sympathize with, though. I recall a session over here where there were one or two hangers-on who either filled a seat while knitting or banged a bodhran while waiting to "star" again with their amazing singing talents. It got tired after awhile, and it can be tough on the instrumentalists having to "wait it out".
No real point, I guess, but hey, what the heck.
# Posted on February 15th 2008 by Rook
Re: If we like songs so much, why not include them at a "session"
Given the choice of
a. playing tunes "while all about is mayhem"
b. "chatting (in the pub) with good background music"
c. "shutting up and listening to songs"
I'd go a-b-c in that order.
As for " If we like songs so much, why not include them at a "session" ", that's a BIG "if"
# Posted on February 15th 2008 by domnull
Re: If we like songs so much, why not include them at a "session"
Wow, we don't get that at all, people who can't sing trying to sing. That's really lousy, sorry to hear about that, everyone. People ask me to sing, I must be able to do so fairly well, so I'm told, I mean, they keep asking me to, so... I ask others to sing who I know can. I don't ask people who can't sing to sing, and people who can't certainly don't ask to! Bizarre! All it takes to have a bit of decent singing at sessions is a little authority with taste and common sense. Works for us!
# Posted on February 15th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: If we like tune so much, why not include them at a "singing session"
Every time someone asks about tunes or favourite tunes we get lots of contributions.
But if we dare to suggest a tune at many singing sessions, we get evil looks and sneered at, and then talked about.
Any particular reason for this?
Not all musicians can sing.
Many singers are not musicians.
# Posted on February 15th 2008 by geoffwright
Re: If we like songs so much, why not include them at a "session"
We have songs at our session, and it's all the better for it, especially if it's one everyone can sing on the chorus.
# Posted on February 15th 2008 by Sugarfoot Jack
Re: If we like songs so much, why not include them at a "session"
Mmm. I'm not sure that you can be musical and not be able to sing. Like, if you were tone deaf (which precious few people actually are) I don't see how you could be anything other than a very mechanical player. I don't think the resulting sound would be very musical.
The voice just happens to be the most expressive musical instrument known to mankind. Like any other instrument it takes practise to play it well.
You get some great singers with not particularly good voices just like you can have great fiddlers playing a duff fiddle.
Similarly, you get some people with great voices who are not great singers just as you get some poor fiddlers with great instruments.
But I would say that the vast majority (i.e., >99%) of musicians could sing if they practised. They may not have great voices but they could sing nevertheless.
# Posted on February 15th 2008 by DonaldK
Re: If we like songs so much, why not include them at a "session"
Recommended reading: this great thread sheds a lot of light on the subject:
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/847
# Posted on February 15th 2008 by domnull
Re: If we like songs so much, why not include them at a "session"
............ as does this classic
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/10852/comments
# Posted on February 15th 2008 by domnull
Re: If we like songs so much, why not include them at a "session"
I always maintain that you could wander into many pubs in rural Ireland and start playing a few tunes maybe in the hope of getting a bit of a session going. Pubs that don't usually have music in them. Within ten minutes somebody will want to sing or suggest you call up 'Mick' from the bar to sing a song. After a void of another ten minutes of coaxing from the patrons Mick will then go into overdrive and when he finishes he will call on Paddy for a song 'The noble call' as it's termed around the Cork area. You're idea of a session has bit the dust, but by God didn't the locals enjoy it. "Come back again soon...ya hear" Not bloody likely.!!!
# Posted on February 16th 2008 by Free Reed
Re: If we like songs so much, why not include them at a "session"
We have a singing barman at our pub. Everyone shuts up if they hope to get their next pint in a timely fashion.
But the people that frequent the pub have learned to shush for songs -- a regular feature at our sessions. Often it's the aforementioned barman, but it also comes from session participants who can also sing as well as people near the session who are known singers.
The trick is you can only ask the crowd to shush a limited amount of times before they'll go from appreciating the song to resenting being shushed. Now and then we get a clueless newcomer who will ignore the request. The last time was on a Tuesday night when a local fiddler named Jenny, who has a great knack for the unaccompanied singing style, was asked (by yours truly) to please sing a song. There was one gal at the bar who refused to shush and continued blabbing on in the classic style of the Ugly American. I shushed one more time and she yelled, "IT'S A BAR!!!!"
This happened very close to the end and as I was leaving I went up to her and said, "It's not just a "bar," it's an Irish pub; something you'll never understand.
" Her reply was to say, "F@#%K YOU!"
# Posted on February 17th 2008 by Phantom Button
Re: If we like songs so much, why not include them at a "session"
Am I the only one who has pulled the wires out of a fruit machine/juke box to ensure a bit of decorum exists in the bar?
# Posted on February 17th 2008 by bodhran bliss
Re: If we like songs so much, why not include them at a "session"
Mind you, I work on the principle that juke box/fruit machine are designed to make money for the landlord, on session night I fulfill that role.
# Posted on February 17th 2008 by bodhran bliss
Re: If we like songs so much, why not include them at a "session"
Have you people ever been to a real session? Here in Donegal, theres always a few songs at any session, it's just what is done.
# Posted on February 19th 2008 by Stíofán
Re: If we like songs so much, why not include them at a "session"
I've been to loads of real sessions, though sadly there are just not that many singers here. When one does turn up we like nothing better than hearing a song, but as they hardly ever do 99% of the sessions are all tunes.
# Posted on February 19th 2008 by bb Cruella de vil
Re: If we like songs so much, why not include them at a "session"
I live in Donegal and cannot think of one session in my area (Rosses/Gweedore) which regularly has singers. Stíofán please reveal more!
# Posted on February 19th 2008 by The Prodigal