Looking for thoughts from those out there that teach. I have done a little over the years, but I can not longer brush off the shining young faces that have their parents ask me if I will give them lessons. (The older faces are easier to brush off [/sarcasm]) I simply must do my duty.
My father was a college trained music teacher, so I have plenty of that in my system. My issue seems to be fundamentals as they pertain to ITM. I'm sure it will all come quite easily, the little I have done so far certainly has. I come from a long line of teachers and it's in my blood, apparently.
For example, if I was teaching classical I remember what my childhood teacher did, and my father did, etc. We’d have books of scales and arpeggios. (“the horror!!!”) We’d work on reading music and have set pieces weekly to perform. (“THE HORROR!!!”)
But here? In this case? I'm sure there are teachers out there haunting our dear mustard board who can provide me with some assistance and resources. No, I'm not looking to join Comhaltas and go through some sort of formalized training program, there's no branch here anyway. I'm just looking to make like Padraig O'Keefe and walk from pupil's house to pupil's house with my fiddle under my arm until I’m old and gray. Or drive, in this case. Everything in Florida is 100 miles from everything else.
SWFL - I'll be real interested in seeing some of the tips given here on this subject. My six year old boy just started Suzuki-method Violin about a month ago - so far so good. I have no perspective teaching music, but I have coached kids in sports for many years. The first lesson that seems to work is helping the kids find a sense of joy in what they are trying to do. The best coaches and teachers I have ever observed always possess a sense of infectious excitement in what they do. Children that learn from people like that tend to absorb that excitement and their fires of inspiration burn much longer. Good Luck!
Thanks Jusa Nutter! I have the enthusiasm down quite naturally, and I think that is what is so exciting about it all. Kids have such a natural enthusiasm about what they love, it's so inspiring!
Good luck with your little one! My little guys love to putter and are resistant to any sort of formal instruction, though I know planting all those tunes in their heads will grow seeds someday.
I'm hopeful we'll get some fascinating food for thought here on this thread in the hours to come.
I recently started teaching beginner tenor banjo for that very same reason, people bugging me to do it because they couldn't find a teacher anywhere else.
Since I'm not THAT far removed from that stage myself, it hasn't been too hard for me remember things that were taught to me And I help run a weekly tune learning session, so I have a load of experience teaching tunes to other people (not necessarily banjo).
My teaching philosophy is pretty standard:
• I teach exclusively by ear
• I teach a tune during every lesson
• I teach fundamental techniques as I'm teaching the tunes
• I evaluate the student's progress, and give them no more than 2 things to work on before their next lesson.
• I loan them good CDs to listen to, and preach the gospel of listening to as much good Irish music as possible.
• I talk about the more nebulous aspects of the rhythm, lift, swing, etc. when I feel that the student is ready to hear the differences.
I really only take on beginners, but I find that it helps me think about things in ways that help my playing too!
I know you are across the State from him, but since you are talking about doing some driving anyway, I strongly encourage you to contact James Kelly in the Miami area to take some lessons yourself. Even for very skilled and experienced players this can be rewarding, especially when they are making the transition to teaching. It will help you organize your thoughts and hone your ability to communicate to a student what musicians do, and how we learn to do it.
James is a superb teacher of Irish music and I am certain that embarking on a lesson program with him will make you a better teacher yourself. His musicianship and understanding of the tradition are well known worldwide and he is really the Irish fiddle master of our state. I do a little music teaching as well, and, when I do, what I remember of the wisdom of my own many wonderful teachers over the years (including James) is a deep well to draw from.
And what better way to model for your students the importance of lessons. I like to think we are always students and that it's important to remember the humble role any individual musician plays among the thousands who have shaped and sustained this tradition over the years.
Reverend, is there a reason that you teach a tune every lesson? I'm curious because that can take up a chunk of lesson time that you then can't spend teaching other things. Just curious.
I admire you for accepting the challenge that the universe is trying to give to you. I need to do that in my own life. Funny how callings keep making requests of us until we finally say OK.
Can you get any ideas from a tutorial book? For example, I have Matt Cranitch's book and it could give you ideas on some techniques to highlight and a progression to go through to teach them.
You don't have to use a book in the actual instruction, but a book might offer a suggested program of instruction you could build upon.
Being taught a tune every lesson marks out a good teacher for me. It's for the simple reason that you can leave the lesson knowing that you have added to your repetoire.
'Common Sense' is the best wisdom Rev, and should be regularly repeated, kind of 'touching wood' or base, keeping grounded...
Taking lessons if you're also teaching, if possible, is definitely good. And, if you can get some time with James Kelly, that is plus!
"we are always students" ~ a philosophy to live by, we are always beginning something...
Yes too about the available literature for inspiration, Matt Cranitch, Kathleen Nesbitt, Paul McNevin, Peter Cooper, Kevin Burke ~ and there are some vids/DVDs out as well. I suspect you have a hand on such things anyway, but sometimes it is good to put yourself back in the seat as a beginner and give such things a go, trying them out and thinking about what the author is suggesting and showing, how they progress.
The one simple addition I'd make to all these is that you remember every person is wired differently, and you will have to get to know your students as individuals, so they can also develop individually ~ at their speed rather than any possibly expectation you might have, which for all of us, as far as expectations, can be at time unreasonable. It is best that they 'succeed', that they feel the joy of accomplishment ~ and if you measure your approach to their abilities and ways ~ they will experience that more than failure. This is so important... It is the difference between sharing and forcing. I've dealt with the failures, children that were pushed past, and lost in the rush. The blossom that comes on a face when you listen and show appreciation is magnificent, how ever small the progress... Focusing on that, the progress and the success, is what makes 'tradition' relaxed and at ease and natural. It isn't difficult to tell the difference between someone forced under pressure, by their own design or others, and someone who came to the music naturally, with guidance and gentle direction...
Now, there are two ways to go about this SWFL, and both can be rewarding ~ individual lessons, and group lessons. One of the pluses of group teaching, and you can still address the individual, and levels, is that you are also reinforcing the other aspect of where this tradition has developed, as a group experience...
Best of luck. I've no doubt the wisdom / common sense will continue to flow. I also suspect you already know much of this, but I also value being reminded that one's sense of things is shared by others. It helps create focus, and it is also inspirational, food for the soul...
Speaking as a student at my ripe old age. Teaching a new tune at each lesson gives the student 'hope' .
I am an old fart learning a new instrument and it gets deflating if the teacher says 'lets polish the things you were doing today' (translate: 'oooh, that is painful for me and should be embarrassing for you')
At least if you get something, it gives motivation to get the problem things past and move forward.
I can share this impression with you, that many, if not all, of the old codgers I had the joy of knowing and sharing music and dance with, if they had to go through some system of certification, under pressure ~ they would have given up and never become the fine musicians and characters they were... I'm not saying you can't accomplish feats of wonder under such direction, but that most of those older players, those source musicians, took it in their stride, grew to it instead of having if forced on them ~ or through certification... It has to have humour and avoid tension and stress...
Rev. Pete, your wisdom is excellent and useful as always, thank you. Your listing reinforces my suspicion that by doing what is coming naturally, I'm doing the right thing. Your "lesson plan" is exactly what I was thinking of.
Paul, thank you, I've often thought of getting over to see James. With work, my own sons and everything I have going on it's not really a possibility to make regular trips across the State, but perhaps we can meet up upon occasion and establish a dialogue.
sb, that's such an excellent idea I must be daft for not thinking of it, thank you. I learned quite a few things from Pete Cooper's Complete Irish Fiddler. I will check out Cranitch's book as well.
About learning a tune each lesson, I remember folks here saying, in regards to scales and whatnot, why play a D scale when you can play a tune in D? Seemed wonderfully logical!
zippy, that's why we paid the teachers the big bucks: they have to listen to the painful stuff without screaming and holding their hands over their ears.
Ian, here's another thought from the student perspective. I came to the fiddle from a woodwind/keyboard background, after years of lessons that were a bit of drudgery, with my eyes absolutely welded to the dots. The light went on in my brain when my teacher made me play Christmas carols at every lesson, with the point being that if I could sing it, I could play it. (I think that kids understand that more easily than adults.) All of a sudden, music was MINE! It was...fun. I seems so trivial now, but at the time it was as if someone had pushed a reset button in my head. Teachers should make you see the world differently, whether it is music or math or whatever.
SWFL, I agree about teaching tunes instead of scales... Building their repertoire is something that makes the student feel like there is progress. I try to pick tunes that will help illustrate some things that I'm trying to teach, whether it be picking patterns, triplets, different scales, or whatnot.
So I might show a student the difference between a D major scale and a D mixolydian one, but I don't ask them to practice the scale, I just teach them a Dmix tune.
I learned by learning tunes. So that seems like a natural way for me to teach.
And I was originally learning from fiddlers and pipers, not banjo players. So I got some good stuff from that, but also found that when I did finally get instruction from plectrum players, I had developed some strange habits that were hard to break. So I try to teach those things that are specific to banjo *as well as* showing how they would relate to something that is done on fiddle or wind instruments.
New-tune-a-lesson may be a good idea, but it need not be a demanding tune. Something simple, which will illustrate or develop a specific skill, can work.
My various teaching experiences have re-inforced to me the value of a student having something to take away from each lesson; in this case a new tune OR a different way of playing a tune. Written notes / suggestions / examples also serve to define each lesson.
Saving the above advice of Reverend and ceolachan could be supportive to you in the near future.
There are loads of one octave and less than an octave tunes, and also one-part tunes, our passion, tradition, offers up an endless treasure trove of choices when it comes to tailoring lessons for different abilities and objectives...
I have been in and taught classes where several levels were going at once, and the beginners weren't presented with a full 32 bars for starters...moving from one group to another and then back again... Despite the different melodies and levels no one ever seemed to complain or be distracted by what the others were doing... The other plus in a group setting is watching how people will help each other.
Teaching is one of the best ways to grow your own understanding and appreciation of the music, the tradition, and I have never been in that situation where I wasn't also learning... Beginners also have an energy that I personally find inspirational, a joy...
One other thing I should note, I teach by ear, but I always provide the student with the ABC of the actual setting of the tune that I taught. I encourage them to only use that (or the dots) as a reference to remember how it goes, and not to ever play it from looking at the dots.
Well you allready know my views on scales.simple major scales D,G,A, and C. I am all for tunes of course, my reservation is that most ITM tunes are actually quite hard to be successful at. which is why my students enjoy their scale practice. because they can be good at it. Which gives them a good head start for learning tunes.
There are two aspects; the instrument, and the music. I found that learning tunes helped me little in playing the fiddle. It was a good dose of technical shtuff that got my fiddlin to a point where I start to be happy with it.
I always teach by ear, though often people want me to write them down afterwards.
I dont know what all the fuss is about scales, it seems a reaction against a heavy handed approach some people experienced when they were younger. It would be a shame if people therefore neglect such a valuable aspect of musical education.
Even will is on record "Learning by ear depends a lot on knowing where the notes you're hearing are found on your instrument. Someone totally new to an instrument probably needs a basic introduction to scales and half- and whole-step intervals before they can begin to learn tunes by ear. Even intermediate players will struggle mightily if they try to learn a tune by ear in a key they've never played in before."
Will Harmon''
So its not just me.....
Anyhow. there is a lot more to it! From my experiance as a student I have seen a lot of people start and leave when it gets too hard and they feel like its not working for them. So my major concern is that each individual student gets what they need for their own personal progress. That it works for them. As a Sports coach we use a lot of Isolation drills, where aspects of the whole game are separated and worked upon. This has done me well in my music so I also use similar principles for my students.
I feel strongly that each student be viewed as an individual and not left to fend for them selves, If they have a problem, it is our job to spot that and help them solve it. They are the primary focus.
Satisfaction comes from a job well done . Both the student and teacher will be delighted when a student successfully navigates a difficult personal musical problem. When they get it.
That reminds me, we may be music teachers but we also have a responsibility as humans to take note of emotional upset. I feel an understanding shoulder is part of the job description.. if needed.
Jig, I think that you are right about the scale thing. Learning tunes without understanding the structure of the key seems to me to be like learning a language without learning basic vocabulary. Sure, you can do it by mimicking sounds, but it's a whole lot faster if you kind of know what goes with what.
If I am learning a tune in a key that I don't play a whole lot, I like to do the scale thing to get my ear bent to the ring of the notes. Okay, I'm not the brightest shovel in the turnip wagon, but that's how I survive.
Well that's a little harsh, wolfbird. My daughter studied a martial art for several years and never got hurt or hurt anyone, as far as I could recall. She did have fun, though, and developed some confidence.
And just because a certain way of learning doesn't work for you, I wouldn't dismiss it for the rest of humanity.
Jig, it's your insistence on a heavy use of scales and arpeggios that gets people's dander up. Many, many people (and no doubt many of us here on thesession.org) learned this music not as an exercise in music theory and technique, but through the sheer joy of learning the tunes. A less formal approach. It works.
In my experience as a teacher, it takes most people (young or old) about 5 minutes, at most, to grasp the basics of a scale. After all, you can teach them in alphabetical order. And on fiddle, for Irish music, the scales for the basic keys all use the same fingering--index and ring are always in the same place on every string, middle finger is either on a natural or a sharp (i.e., close to the index or close to the ring finger).
Rather than working on scales and arpeggios, I give my students a sketch of the fingerboard with all the notes in their positions. It takes 5 minutes or less to go over this. Then we play ***tunes.*** All the scale and arpeggio patterns you need to play this music are in the tunes. And the tunes are fun to play.
If someone seems daunted by fiddle tunes, I start them off on simple songs to get their ears (and fingers) oriented. We do You Are My Sunshine, Amazing Grace, the main motif to Ode to Joy, or Oh Susanna. Most students come back a week later playing other melodies that they already knew in their heads--and they've sussed out where to find the notes on the fiddle. It's not rocket surgery.
I have yet to find a student who is motivated by scales--they all want to play tunes.
For more "advanced" students playing tunes in flat keys and more than 3 sharps, I simply explain the different positions for the index, ring, and pinky fingers. Again, this information makes at least as much sense within a tune as it does within a scale pattern. Most people get it right away. And you can work on refiining your intonation and ear for the intervals just as well playing a tune as you can playing scales. Folks who complain that a tune doesn't give them enough time are trying to play the tune up to speed. I suggest that they slow way down. Use bits of tunes to hone their skills, if they must.
I've never lost a student because I don't use scale and arpeggio exercises. But I've gained students who couldn't stand the more regimented, drill-ridden approach of many other teachers.
You guys are the best, thank you for all the insight, and a special thanks to Mr. C and jig.
I think understanding the scales are important, and I can see the value in making sure one knows them, of course. I'm not sure how much practice is valuable after that fact, but I suppose it would be a student by student basis.
Mr. C, this is just wonderful, I think I'll print this out:
Individuals all, no cookie cutter approach, every student is different, check...and I pray I never stop learning! Gee, ya minus as well turn off the lights and lock up if you stop doing that, eh?
I am not confused scales? music theory? scales are practice not theory... perhaps you are a bit confused yourself?
Yes and you appear know little about martial arts. I train and teach some of the roughest martial arts and they ave little to do with winning or losing. Fair enough if you compete in anything it is partly about winning and losing.
People can take any simple thing and turn it into a competition
, you can have a p*ss*ng contest if you like but that doesnt make it solely a competitive thing , or that we must all compete..
Martial arts are about respect mostly. Respect for your self and respect for others. They are about self control, you learn to control your body, your mind . They are about understanding, understand yourself.
SWFL, you might want to suggest that your students record their lessons. I've just started doing that and I wish I had done it from the beginning---there are so many details from a lesson to remember, it really helps to go back and listen to it and put the tips into practice when I'm at home and can do it as many times as I like.
Hi will, all I am doing is making suggestions based on my experiance.
I actually think a forum such as this is rife for misunderstanding . For example I dont propound a dry, technical approach, but if dry technical stuff works I am not going to avoid it.
I dont have a regimented approach, but a personal one, what is the best approach for each individual. I dont on the other hand condemn a regimented approach, In its place, large groups' it is valuable. If it works.. use it.if it doesnt. abandon it.
Using parts of tunes as technical exercises is effective of course, and directly applicable. but using scales is also . thats all.
If the teacher is enthusiastic about something then hopefully so becomes the student. I am enthusiastic about all aspects of my craft. I find working on bowing isolated from any other difficult aspect helps. scales work for me. Anyhow lets not revisit that old thing eh?
Positive Mental Attitude eh
Ian, one of the great things about teaching is that it's not about *you,* the teacher. It's all about helping someone else find and fulfill *their* potential. Sounds like you have that attitude in spades, so you'll do fine.
I'll second Kennedy's suggestion that students bring a recording device to every lesson. Make sure you play stuff slowly for them, as well as up to speed.
You'll know this, but for the sake of repeating more 'common sense' ~
Teach the music as it is structured ~ beats, bars and phrases, from beginning to end, the usual ~ 1st bar, then 2nd bar, then the 1st short phrase of the two together, bars 1 & 2. Then work up 3 & 4, then the longer phrase of bars 1 - 4 ~ on up to 1 - 8, etc... But I've faith in you, you know this, including intuitively. I have known the rare few who don't. The joy of the system is it so clearly reinforces an awareness of the rhythmic and phrase structure of this dance music, the dance in it is the basic rhythms from the beat to the phrase to the usual AABB...
SWFL, when I saw your intention I smiled and there was no doubt in that smile that you'd do well. If I were nearer and you were throwing a group lesson I wouldn't think twice about coming along... Best of luck...
For those who are beginning and are not familiar with the instrument or not very handy with their ears, do 5mn of "play what I play". Not tunes - they are long and the idea is to memorize them - takes a bit of effort - a lot of effort when you're starting out.
This is a bit like scales I suppose. So you might go
Once they have these down (after a very short time doing this, they should manage 2nds and 3rds no problem and will be able to play by ear stuff that players like me - 2 years in - are only just beginning to do)
Then you can move on to more complicated things:
G3F3E3
GAG FGF EFE
GBG FAF E3
aiming for phrases that often come up in tunes
I seriously believe that after two years of doing that, you can play any tune that you can sing - but people who haven't had the opportunity, willpower, knowledge to do this kind of practice will be *way* behind. The other day, my teacher played D B~B2 GEFD E2. And without thinking about it, I just played the same thing. I was *completely flabbergasted* - it would have taken me half an hour to figure out by ear 2 years ago.
(the idea with doing this with a tune is that you're wanting to bypass the long term memory/brain where tunes are stored in patterns going AABB with the A going QR1QR2 etc. They should just "instinctively" sing back at you)
I certainly didnt quote you out of context will. I made a point about scales. Which at one stage you appeared to vociferously object to. I will quote whoever I so choose . thank you.
Bar lines, interesting point. They are simply guides to structure and phrasing. In fact if the musical phrase crosses bar lines should they be there?
If you teach by ear, there are no bar lines, there are only musical phrases/statements .Its only when you write it down that they appear .
I would normally teach a manageable chunk, often for a yung un that would be half a bar[phrase] and I would not move on till the first phrase was right.
Enjoy it.
Good stuff, Tirno. I do a lot of "call and response" with people in the beginning. By the time they're learning whole tunes, they already have most of the building blocks.
There's an old improv game you can play that does sort of the same thing, and even absolute beginners can use it to free up their musical mind. And it works one on one, or in groups. Goes like this:
One person plays a note.
The next person plays a note.
And so on.
No rules--you can play any single note you want, for as short or long, soft or loud, plain or ornamented, bowed or pizzicato, etc.
For two people, you just trade turns.
In a group, sit or stand in a circle and just go around the circle.
More experienced players quickly get the hang of this and tend to gravitate toward a key/mode and timing suggested by the first few notes. But even absolute beginners can have fun with this and surprise themselves.
Of course, you can also do the same thing with phrases--the standard blues or jazz call and response pattern. And you can pre-set a key/mode and time signature, if you want. Endless fun.
I was reading this thread with a sense of impending doom, like the people in the movie Jaws when the "shark approaching" music starts to play in the background. And sure enough, it all went to heck in a handbasket. Fortunately, SFWL got some good suggestions before the games began. And I agree with ceolochan, from the contributions SWFL has made to this board, I can see he has the right attitude, which is the most important thing of all when it comes to inspiring students.
Reverend, just when you thought it was safe to go back in the water........
There is a French concert pianist who has been blind from birth (his name escapes me for the moment) but one thing very characteristic of his playing is that he is not fettered by bar lines. He plays the music in phrases. The iconoclastic French composer Satie composed a number of piano pieces with no bar lines. It's very refreshening to play them.
A millennium and a half ago Gregorian chant didn't have bar lines; it had something far better - little notations to do with the phrasing of the words being chanted, and breathing pauses.
"Bear in mind when you teach the phrases that they often cross bar lines in this music--what gives it its characteristic flow."
Will, thank you - that's as good a one-sentence characterization of this kind of music as any I've ever seen, and it just put an awful lot into focus for me.
>>> Reverend, just when you thought it was safe to go back in the water........
Heh, of course, I was the one that stirred it up by saying that I teach a tune every lesson, and that I rely on tunes instead of scales to teach structure.
But it's back to sunning on the beach for me now :-B
* Will CPT: "Bear in mind when you teach the phrases that they often cross bar lines in this music--what gives it its characteristic flow."
* 'c': Yes, an important point, absolutely, but that doesn't obviate the down with the up, or the 'lead-in', or the value of the bar line, the beat and breath of this dance music and its phrasing, its definition and flow...
* jig: "Bar lines, interesting point. They are simply guides to structure and phrasing. In fact if the musical phrase crosses bar lines should they be there? If you teach by ear, there are no bar lines, there are only musical phrases/statements .Its only when you write it down that they appear."
* 'c': The bar lines are there from a sense of what the music says as 'dance music', something too many are sadly disconnected from. All those structural points are obvious to the ears too, whether you read or not, and if we're on about this lovely instrument of music, the fiddle, it's there in the bow. You can also see it, if we want to be dryly analytical about it, with the visual wave form from recordings of this music, and more clearly with solo instruments, like this beloved thing the fiddle. Yes, there can be a lead in, and guess what, that is usually dance related too, but never more than a beat's worth, just before, guess what, the 'bar line' ~ like the start of the 'skip' of a 'skip-1-2-3' in a hornpipe step ~ or, using 'N' for 'note', 4/4 ~ N2 | N2 N2 N2... The bar still has value and purpose, the start of the 1-2-3 of the step... some tunes are more emphatic about this. The change to notating slides as 12/8 was also to accomodate that longer phrase definition and swing in that particular version of the single jig... The phrases, as with the dance it is mated to, a relationship too often blown to hell by both classical and session musicians, are also the dance ~ 2 bars / 4 bars / 8 bars / 16 bars / 32 bars ~ etc... It isn't accidental or random. It is custom tailored as opposed to off the shelf or slapped together from torn bits of cloth and glue and roughly representing a coat... This is on the whole, one-size-fits-all, with rare exception... That is also part of its charm.
* lazyhound: "He plays the music in phrases."
* 'c': I've had that pleasure, to play with at least half a dozen different blind musicians. They weren't illiterate. I can't think of one that didn't read music ~ braille music... Beat, bar and phrase were not a problem... They were ~ great dance musicians... But, as well, the two I'm thinking of now, also were damned fine dancers too. The problems were never them, it was idiots on the dance floor that couldn't deal with it and would 'walk around them' as if they had something contagious...
It is, first and formost, dance music, about dance, and it reflects that shared structure, part of which is well help together with bar lines, if you choose to read the music, dots or ABCs, but not a straight jacket, a useful guide... That said, I have seen and heard the hell that can result when someone takes it as gospel and chops the music up like feeding wood scraps to a hopper... Yuck!
Yeah, I'd ran away when things got hot here, but I came back. I'm a fan of Will's wisdom...and lazyhound's too, and others, having just named two... If nobody else has said so, I value highly your constructive and inspirational comment...
I don't mind the occassional controversy, but when it gets personal, and I've slipped on my own snot a few times too, well, I tend to back away slowly and look for a clear exit...
"If I were nearer and you were throwing a group lesson I wouldn't think twice about coming along"
Mr. C, wouldn't we be blessed?
"Ian - any idea what age groups you'll be teaching? Young kids? Teens? Just adults?"
Will, in a short answer yes. HA! I've had my sons' schoolmates parents ask me for lessons, as well as fine elderly ladies and gents at sessions.
Rev Pete, where are ya on vaca, Cali? Next season, come to the Golfo de Mexico, mi amigo!
Mr. AlBrown, they can't keep us down. The water is always safe. Be brave, dive in, throw some elbows, clear a space with some decency.
Thank you all, this is a place to learn, and those who came before did serious work. Glad to e-see a bunch of you again!
So how about both? Rev Pete seems to have the right idea, individual as well as group settings. I'm working closely with my local Irish American Cultural club on this...which is half the motivation to get off my duff in the first place about it.
>> Ha! Then what are you doing splashing about here?
Well, was *trying* to help out Ian with some suggestions... but apparently, I was just winding people up about learning with tunes instead of scales and arpeggios!
Besides, you gotta dive in every now and then, or you get sunburned lying on the beach.
Ian, group lessons or workshops are a lot different than teaching one-on-one. It helps to have a wide range of tunes, musical games, etc., to be able to help people with the wide variety of skills and abilities they'll bring to it. You may want to jot down an outline of stuff you can teach, depending on who shows up and what they're needs/expectations are. I've found that it helps to think through the sequencing of things ahead of time.
For example, to teach rolls on fiddle, I start with cuts (because they're an element of rolls). I start with using the ring finger to cut an index finger note (say, B on the A string). Then I show using the middle finger as an option. Then we go through cuts on all the other fingers, ending with pinky cuts on ring finger notes and also open string cuts. Then on to rolls, starting back at the index finger (a roll on B, for instance). And explain the difference between percussive rolls (a la Kevin Burke) and more open, notey rolls (a la Brian Conway or Seamus Connolly). And then work through how I (and other musicians) think about playing rolls in tunes.
After you've taught a few workshops or group lessons, all this becomes second nature. But for the first few times, it helped me to have at least a sketch of a lesson plan.
I teach by ear, but also usually provide abc and sheet music notation for any tunes I teach, as a memory aid and to help any visually-oriented learners. And let them know ahead of time to bring recording devices.
Another thing about group lessons--people tend to get really nervous when asked to play solo in a circle of other players, and in front of the teacher. So I always get the group to warm up--first by having everyone make as many horrible sounds on their instruments as they can. It helps if you do this before even tuning up together. Make lots of "bad" noises yourself, and laugh about it. Then point out that these are still musical sounds--just extreme examples of dissonance or volume, or extra grit or squeeking and squawking. Sometimes I'll play the Chicken Reel to show how such sounds can be incorporated into a tune.
Then we all tune up together, by ear, off my fiddle. Help anyone who needs it.
Then find a tune that everyone knows (or, forless experienced players, one easy note, in either a jig or reel rhythm), and play together. I like using some easy, widely known jig or reel, played at a gentle pace. Have the whole group play it 10 or 12 times in a row together. This lets everyone get used to playing, hearing the acoustics of the room, settling into their comfort zone a bit.
Helps the rest of the time go much easier for everyone.
Teaching - Wisdom Sought
Teaching - Wisdom Sought
Looking for thoughts from those out there that teach. I have done a little over the years, but I can not longer brush off the shining young faces that have their parents ask me if I will give them lessons. (The older faces are easier to brush off [/sarcasm]) I simply must do my duty.
My father was a college trained music teacher, so I have plenty of that in my system. My issue seems to be fundamentals as they pertain to ITM. I'm sure it will all come quite easily, the little I have done so far certainly has. I come from a long line of teachers and it's in my blood, apparently.
For example, if I was teaching classical I remember what my childhood teacher did, and my father did, etc. We’d have books of scales and arpeggios. (“the horror!!!”) We’d work on reading music and have set pieces weekly to perform. (“THE HORROR!!!”)
But here? In this case? I'm sure there are teachers out there haunting our dear mustard board who can provide me with some assistance and resources. No, I'm not looking to join Comhaltas and go through some sort of formalized training program, there's no branch here anyway. I'm just looking to make like Padraig O'Keefe and walk from pupil's house to pupil's house with my fiddle under my arm until I’m old and gray. Or drive, in this case. Everything in Florida is 100 miles from everything else.
Thanks in advance.
Ian
# Posted on February 14th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Teaching - Wisdom Sought
SWFL - I'll be real interested in seeing some of the tips given here on this subject. My six year old boy just started Suzuki-method Violin about a month ago - so far so good. I have no perspective teaching music, but I have coached kids in sports for many years. The first lesson that seems to work is helping the kids find a sense of joy in what they are trying to do. The best coaches and teachers I have ever observed always possess a sense of infectious excitement in what they do. Children that learn from people like that tend to absorb that excitement and their fires of inspiration burn much longer. Good Luck!
# Posted on February 14th 2008 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: Teaching - Wisdom Sought
Thanks Jusa Nutter! I have the enthusiasm down quite naturally, and I think that is what is so exciting about it all. Kids have such a natural enthusiasm about what they love, it's so inspiring!
Good luck with your little one! My little guys love to putter and are resistant to any sort of formal instruction, though I know planting all those tunes in their heads will grow seeds someday.
I'm hopeful we'll get some fascinating food for thought here on this thread in the hours to come.
# Posted on February 14th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Teaching - Wisdom Sought
Hey Ian,
I recently started teaching beginner tenor banjo for that very same reason, people bugging me to do it because they couldn't find a teacher anywhere else.
Since I'm not THAT far removed from that stage myself, it hasn't been too hard for me remember things that were taught to me
And I help run a weekly tune learning session, so I have a load of experience teaching tunes to other people (not necessarily banjo).
My teaching philosophy is pretty standard:
• I teach exclusively by ear
• I teach a tune during every lesson
• I teach fundamental techniques as I'm teaching the tunes
• I evaluate the student's progress, and give them no more than 2 things to work on before their next lesson.
• I loan them good CDs to listen to, and preach the gospel of listening to as much good Irish music as possible.
• I talk about the more nebulous aspects of the rhythm, lift, swing, etc. when I feel that the student is ready to hear the differences.
I really only take on beginners, but I find that it helps me think about things in ways that help my playing too!
Good luck with it!
Pete
# Posted on February 14th 2008 by Reverend
Re: Teaching - Wisdom Sought
BTW, I don't know if any of that qualifies as "wisdom"... It's just what I've come up with for the couple of students that I have...
# Posted on February 14th 2008 by Reverend
Re: Teaching - Wisdom Sought
SWFL fiddler,
I know you are across the State from him, but since you are talking about doing some driving anyway, I strongly encourage you to contact James Kelly in the Miami area to take some lessons yourself. Even for very skilled and experienced players this can be rewarding, especially when they are making the transition to teaching. It will help you organize your thoughts and hone your ability to communicate to a student what musicians do, and how we learn to do it.
James is a superb teacher of Irish music and I am certain that embarking on a lesson program with him will make you a better teacher yourself. His musicianship and understanding of the tradition are well known worldwide and he is really the Irish fiddle master of our state. I do a little music teaching as well, and, when I do, what I remember of the wisdom of my own many wonderful teachers over the years (including James) is a deep well to draw from.
And what better way to model for your students the importance of lessons. I like to think we are always students and that it's important to remember the humble role any individual musician plays among the thousands who have shaped and sustained this tradition over the years.
# Posted on February 14th 2008 by Paul Groff
Re: Teaching - Wisdom Sought
Reverend, is there a reason that you teach a tune every lesson? I'm curious because that can take up a chunk of lesson time that you then can't spend teaching other things. Just curious.
# Posted on February 14th 2008 by kennedy
Re: Teaching - Wisdom Sought
I admire you for accepting the challenge that the universe is trying to give to you. I need to do that in my own life. Funny how callings keep making requests of us until we finally say OK.
Can you get any ideas from a tutorial book? For example, I have Matt Cranitch's book and it could give you ideas on some techniques to highlight and a progression to go through to teach them.
You don't have to use a book in the actual instruction, but a book might offer a suggested program of instruction you could build upon.
# Posted on February 14th 2008 by sbhikes
Re: Teaching - Wisdom Sought
Being taught a tune every lesson marks out a good teacher for me. It's for the simple reason that you can leave the lesson knowing that you have added to your repetoire.
# Posted on February 14th 2008 by mehitabel23
Re: Teaching - Wisdom Sought
'Common Sense' is the best wisdom Rev, and should be regularly repeated, kind of 'touching wood' or base, keeping grounded...
Taking lessons if you're also teaching, if possible, is definitely good. And, if you can get some time with James Kelly, that is plus!
"we are always students" ~ a philosophy to live by, we are always beginning something...
Yes too about the available literature for inspiration, Matt Cranitch, Kathleen Nesbitt, Paul McNevin, Peter Cooper, Kevin Burke ~ and there are some vids/DVDs out as well. I suspect you have a hand on such things anyway, but sometimes it is good to put yourself back in the seat as a beginner and give such things a go, trying them out and thinking about what the author is suggesting and showing, how they progress.
The one simple addition I'd make to all these is that you remember every person is wired differently, and you will have to get to know your students as individuals, so they can also develop individually ~ at their speed rather than any possibly expectation you might have, which for all of us, as far as expectations, can be at time unreasonable. It is best that they 'succeed', that they feel the joy of accomplishment ~ and if you measure your approach to their abilities and ways ~ they will experience that more than failure. This is so important... It is the difference between sharing and forcing. I've dealt with the failures, children that were pushed past, and lost in the rush. The blossom that comes on a face when you listen and show appreciation is magnificent, how ever small the progress... Focusing on that, the progress and the success, is what makes 'tradition' relaxed and at ease and natural. It isn't difficult to tell the difference between someone forced under pressure, by their own design or others, and someone who came to the music naturally, with guidance and gentle direction...
Now, there are two ways to go about this SWFL, and both can be rewarding ~ individual lessons, and group lessons. One of the pluses of group teaching, and you can still address the individual, and levels, is that you are also reinforcing the other aspect of where this tradition has developed, as a group experience...
Best of luck. I've no doubt the wisdom / common sense will continue to flow. I also suspect you already know much of this, but I also value being reminded that one's sense of things is shared by others. It helps create focus, and it is also inspirational, food for the soul...
# Posted on February 14th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: Teaching - Wisdom Sought
Speaking as a student at my ripe old age. Teaching a new tune at each lesson gives the student 'hope' .
I am an old fart learning a new instrument and it gets deflating if the teacher says 'lets polish the things you were doing today' (translate: 'oooh, that is painful for me and should be embarrassing for you')
At least if you get something, it gives motivation to get the problem things past and move forward.
# Posted on February 14th 2008 by zippydw
Re: Teaching - Wisdom Sought
I can share this impression with you, that many, if not all, of the old codgers I had the joy of knowing and sharing music and dance with, if they had to go through some system of certification, under pressure ~ they would have given up and never become the fine musicians and characters they were... I'm not saying you can't accomplish feats of wonder under such direction, but that most of those older players, those source musicians, took it in their stride, grew to it instead of having if forced on them ~ or through certification... It has to have humour and avoid tension and stress...
# Posted on February 14th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: Teaching - Wisdom Sought
Wow! Thank you all, this is great!
Rev. Pete, your wisdom is excellent and useful as always, thank you. Your listing reinforces my suspicion that by doing what is coming naturally, I'm doing the right thing. Your "lesson plan" is exactly what I was thinking of.
Paul, thank you, I've often thought of getting over to see James. With work, my own sons and everything I have going on it's not really a possibility to make regular trips across the State, but perhaps we can meet up upon occasion and establish a dialogue.
sb, that's such an excellent idea I must be daft for not thinking of it, thank you. I learned quite a few things from Pete Cooper's Complete Irish Fiddler. I will check out Cranitch's book as well.
About learning a tune each lesson, I remember folks here saying, in regards to scales and whatnot, why play a D scale when you can play a tune in D? Seemed wonderfully logical!
# Posted on February 14th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Teaching - Wisdom Sought
zippy, that's why we paid the teachers the big bucks: they have to listen to the painful stuff without screaming and holding their hands over their ears.
Ian, here's another thought from the student perspective. I came to the fiddle from a woodwind/keyboard background, after years of lessons that were a bit of drudgery, with my eyes absolutely welded to the dots. The light went on in my brain when my teacher made me play Christmas carols at every lesson, with the point being that if I could sing it, I could play it. (I think that kids understand that more easily than adults.) All of a sudden, music was MINE! It was...fun. I seems so trivial now, but at the time it was as if someone had pushed a reset button in my head. Teachers should make you see the world differently, whether it is music or math or whatever.
But you probably know this!
# Posted on February 14th 2008 by Batlady
Re: Teaching - Wisdom Sought
SWFL, I agree about teaching tunes instead of scales... Building their repertoire is something that makes the student feel like there is progress. I try to pick tunes that will help illustrate some things that I'm trying to teach, whether it be picking patterns, triplets, different scales, or whatnot.
So I might show a student the difference between a D major scale and a D mixolydian one, but I don't ask them to practice the scale, I just teach them a Dmix tune.
I learned by learning tunes. So that seems like a natural way for me to teach.
And I was originally learning from fiddlers and pipers, not banjo players. So I got some good stuff from that, but also found that when I did finally get instruction from plectrum players, I had developed some strange habits that were hard to break. So I try to teach those things that are specific to banjo *as well as* showing how they would relate to something that is done on fiddle or wind instruments.
# Posted on February 14th 2008 by Reverend
Re: Teaching - Wisdom Sought
New-tune-a-lesson may be a good idea, but it need not be a demanding tune. Something simple, which will illustrate or develop a specific skill, can work.
My various teaching experiences have re-inforced to me the value of a student having something to take away from each lesson; in this case a new tune OR a different way of playing a tune. Written notes / suggestions / examples also serve to define each lesson.
Saving the above advice of Reverend and ceolachan could be supportive to you in the near future.
# Posted on February 14th 2008 by oldstrings
Re: Teaching - Wisdom Sought
There are loads of one octave and less than an octave tunes, and also one-part tunes, our passion, tradition, offers up an endless treasure trove of choices when it comes to tailoring lessons for different abilities and objectives...
I have been in and taught classes where several levels were going at once, and the beginners weren't presented with a full 32 bars for starters...moving from one group to another and then back again... Despite the different melodies and levels no one ever seemed to complain or be distracted by what the others were doing... The other plus in a group setting is watching how people will help each other.
Teaching is one of the best ways to grow your own understanding and appreciation of the music, the tradition, and I have never been in that situation where I wasn't also learning... Beginners also have an energy that I personally find inspirational, a joy...
# Posted on February 14th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: Teaching - Wisdom Sought
One other thing I should note, I teach by ear, but I always provide the student with the ABC of the actual setting of the tune that I taught. I encourage them to only use that (or the dots) as a reference to remember how it goes, and not to ever play it from looking at the dots.
# Posted on February 14th 2008 by Reverend
Re: Teaching - Wisdom Sought
Well you allready know my views on scales.
simple major scales D,G,A, and C. I am all for tunes of course, my reservation is that most ITM tunes are actually quite hard to be successful at. which is why my students enjoy their scale practice. because they can be good at it. Which gives them a good head start for learning tunes.
There are two aspects; the instrument, and the music. I found that learning tunes helped me little in playing the fiddle. It was a good dose of technical shtuff that got my fiddlin to a point where I start to be happy with it.
I always teach by ear, though often people want me to write them down afterwards.
I dont know what all the fuss is about scales, it seems a reaction against a heavy handed approach some people experienced when they were younger. It would be a shame if people therefore neglect such a valuable aspect of musical education.
Even will is on record "Learning by ear depends a lot on knowing where the notes you're hearing are found on your instrument. Someone totally new to an instrument probably needs a basic introduction to scales and half- and whole-step intervals before they can begin to learn tunes by ear. Even intermediate players will struggle mightily if they try to learn a tune by ear in a key they've never played in before."
Will Harmon''
So its not just me.....
Anyhow. there is a lot more to it! From my experiance as a student I have seen a lot of people start and leave when it gets too hard and they feel like its not working for them. So my major concern is that each individual student gets what they need for their own personal progress. That it works for them. As a Sports coach we use a lot of Isolation drills, where aspects of the whole game are separated and worked upon. This has done me well in my music so I also use similar principles for my students.
I feel strongly that each student be viewed as an individual and not left to fend for them selves, If they have a problem, it is our job to spot that and help them solve it. They are the primary focus.
Satisfaction comes from a job well done . Both the student and teacher will be delighted when a student successfully navigates a difficult personal musical problem. When they get it.
That reminds me, we may be music teachers but we also have a responsibility as humans to take note of emotional upset. I feel an understanding shoulder is part of the job description.. if needed.
# Posted on February 14th 2008 by jig
Re: Teaching - Wisdom Sought
Jig, I think that you are right about the scale thing. Learning tunes without understanding the structure of the key seems to me to be like learning a language without learning basic vocabulary. Sure, you can do it by mimicking sounds, but it's a whole lot faster if you kind of know what goes with what.
If I am learning a tune in a key that I don't play a whole lot, I like to do the scale thing to get my ear bent to the ring of the notes. Okay, I'm not the brightest shovel in the turnip wagon, but that's how I survive.
# Posted on February 14th 2008 by Batlady
Re: Teaching - Wisdom Sought
Well that's a little harsh, wolfbird. My daughter studied a martial art for several years and never got hurt or hurt anyone, as far as I could recall. She did have fun, though, and developed some confidence.
And just because a certain way of learning doesn't work for you, I wouldn't dismiss it for the rest of humanity.
# Posted on February 14th 2008 by Batlady
Re: Teaching - Wisdom Sought
Jig, it's your insistence on a heavy use of scales and arpeggios that gets people's dander up. Many, many people (and no doubt many of us here on thesession.org) learned this music not as an exercise in music theory and technique, but through the sheer joy of learning the tunes. A less formal approach. It works.
In my experience as a teacher, it takes most people (young or old) about 5 minutes, at most, to grasp the basics of a scale. After all, you can teach them in alphabetical order. And on fiddle, for Irish music, the scales for the basic keys all use the same fingering--index and ring are always in the same place on every string, middle finger is either on a natural or a sharp (i.e., close to the index or close to the ring finger).
Rather than working on scales and arpeggios, I give my students a sketch of the fingerboard with all the notes in their positions. It takes 5 minutes or less to go over this. Then we play ***tunes.*** All the scale and arpeggio patterns you need to play this music are in the tunes. And the tunes are fun to play.
If someone seems daunted by fiddle tunes, I start them off on simple songs to get their ears (and fingers) oriented. We do You Are My Sunshine, Amazing Grace, the main motif to Ode to Joy, or Oh Susanna. Most students come back a week later playing other melodies that they already knew in their heads--and they've sussed out where to find the notes on the fiddle. It's not rocket surgery.
I have yet to find a student who is motivated by scales--they all want to play tunes.
For more "advanced" students playing tunes in flat keys and more than 3 sharps, I simply explain the different positions for the index, ring, and pinky fingers. Again, this information makes at least as much sense within a tune as it does within a scale pattern. Most people get it right away. And you can work on refiining your intonation and ear for the intervals just as well playing a tune as you can playing scales. Folks who complain that a tune doesn't give them enough time are trying to play the tune up to speed. I suggest that they slow way down. Use bits of tunes to hone their skills, if they must.
I've never lost a student because I don't use scale and arpeggio exercises. But I've gained students who couldn't stand the more regimented, drill-ridden approach of many other teachers.
# Posted on February 14th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: Teaching - Wisdom Sought
You guys are the best, thank you for all the insight, and a special thanks to Mr. C and jig.
I think understanding the scales are important, and I can see the value in making sure one knows them, of course. I'm not sure how much practice is valuable after that fact, but I suppose it would be a student by student basis.
Mr. C, this is just wonderful, I think I'll print this out:
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/16732#comment347061
Minus well print the whole page out here!
Individuals all, no cookie cutter approach, every student is different, check...and I pray I never stop learning! Gee, ya minus as well turn off the lights and lock up if you stop doing that, eh?
# Posted on February 14th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Teaching - Wisdom Sought
I am not confused
scales? music theory? scales are practice not theory... perhaps you are a bit confused yourself? 
Yes and you appear know little about martial arts. I train and teach some of the roughest martial arts and they ave little to do with winning or losing. Fair enough if you compete in anything it is partly about winning and losing.
People can take any simple thing and turn it into a competition
, you can have a p*ss*ng contest if you like but that doesnt make it solely a competitive thing , or that we must all compete..
Martial arts are about respect mostly. Respect for your self and respect for others. They are about self control, you learn to control your body, your mind . They are about understanding, understand yourself.
# Posted on February 14th 2008 by jig
Re: Teaching - Wisdom Sought
Great stuff Will, thank you!
# Posted on February 14th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Teaching - Wisdom Sought
And YOU understand yourself and respect others, jig ?? Gosh!
# Posted on February 14th 2008 by wolfbird
Re: Teaching - Wisdom Sought
SWFL, you might want to suggest that your students record their lessons. I've just started doing that and I wish I had done it from the beginning---there are so many details from a lesson to remember, it really helps to go back and listen to it and put the tips into practice when I'm at home and can do it as many times as I like.
# Posted on February 14th 2008 by kennedy
Re: Teaching - Wisdom Sought
Hi will, all I am doing is making suggestions based on my experiance.
I actually think a forum such as this is rife for misunderstanding . For example I dont propound a dry, technical approach, but if dry technical stuff works I am not going to avoid it.
I dont have a regimented approach, but a personal one, what is the best approach for each individual. I dont on the other hand condemn a regimented approach, In its place, large groups' it is valuable. If it works.. use it.if it doesnt. abandon it.
Using parts of tunes as technical exercises is effective of course, and directly applicable. but using scales is also . thats all.
If the teacher is enthusiastic about something then hopefully so becomes the student. I am enthusiastic about all aspects of my craft. I find working on bowing isolated from any other difficult aspect helps. scales work for me. Anyhow lets not revisit that old thing eh?
Positive Mental Attitude eh
# Posted on February 14th 2008 by jig
Re: Teaching - Wisdom Sought
Then you might consider not quoting me out of context every time this topic comes up. Thanks.
# Posted on February 15th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: Teaching - Wisdom Sought
Ian, one of the great things about teaching is that it's not about *you,* the teacher. It's all about helping someone else find and fulfill *their* potential. Sounds like you have that attitude in spades, so you'll do fine.
I'll second Kennedy's suggestion that students bring a recording device to every lesson. Make sure you play stuff slowly for them, as well as up to speed.
# Posted on February 15th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: Teaching - Wisdom Sought
Check and recording the lessons, check! Great stuff Will, thank you.
# Posted on February 15th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Teaching - Wisdom Sought
You'll know this, but for the sake of repeating more 'common sense' ~
Teach the music as it is structured ~ beats, bars and phrases, from beginning to end, the usual ~ 1st bar, then 2nd bar, then the 1st short phrase of the two together, bars 1 & 2. Then work up 3 & 4, then the longer phrase of bars 1 - 4 ~ on up to 1 - 8, etc... But I've faith in you, you know this, including intuitively. I have known the rare few who don't. The joy of the system is it so clearly reinforces an awareness of the rhythmic and phrase structure of this dance music, the dance in it is the basic rhythms from the beat to the phrase to the usual AABB...
SWFL, when I saw your intention I smiled and there was no doubt in that smile that you'd do well. If I were nearer and you were throwing a group lesson I wouldn't think twice about coming along... Best of luck...
# Posted on February 15th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: Teaching - Wisdom Sought
Good points, C.
Bear in mind when you teach the phrases that they often cross bar lines in this music--what gives it its characteristic flow.
Ian - any idea what age groups you'll be teaching? Young kids? Teens? Just adults?
# Posted on February 15th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: Teaching - Wisdom Sought
For those who are beginning and are not familiar with the instrument or not very handy with their ears, do 5mn of "play what I play". Not tunes - they are long and the idea is to memorize them - takes a bit of effort - a lot of effort when you're starting out.
This is a bit like scales I suppose. So you might go
D3 (they repeat)
DE3 (they repeat)
DEFG3 ...
GFD ...
DEG ...
Once they have these down (after a very short time doing this, they should manage 2nds and 3rds no problem and will be able to play by ear stuff that players like me - 2 years in - are only just beginning to do)
Then you can move on to more complicated things:
G3F3E3
GAG FGF EFE
GBG FAF E3
aiming for phrases that often come up in tunes
I seriously believe that after two years of doing that, you can play any tune that you can sing - but people who haven't had the opportunity, willpower, knowledge to do this kind of practice will be *way* behind. The other day, my teacher played D B~B2 GEFD E2. And without thinking about it, I just played the same thing. I was *completely flabbergasted* - it would have taken me half an hour to figure out by ear 2 years ago.
# Posted on February 15th 2008 by Tirno
Re: Teaching - Wisdom Sought
(the idea with doing this with a tune is that you're wanting to bypass the long term memory/brain where tunes are stored in patterns going AABB with the A going QR1QR2 etc. They should just "instinctively" sing back at you)
# Posted on February 15th 2008 by Tirno
Re: Teaching - Wisdom Sought
I certainly didnt quote you out of context will. I made a point about scales. Which at one stage you appeared to vociferously object to. I will quote whoever I so choose . thank you.
Bar lines, interesting point. They are simply guides to structure and phrasing. In fact if the musical phrase crosses bar lines should they be there?
If you teach by ear, there are no bar lines, there are only musical phrases/statements .Its only when you write it down that they appear .
I would normally teach a manageable chunk, often for a yung un that would be half a bar[phrase] and I would not move on till the first phrase was right.
Enjoy it.
# Posted on February 15th 2008 by jig
Re: Teaching - Wisdom Sought
Good stuff, Tirno. I do a lot of "call and response" with people in the beginning. By the time they're learning whole tunes, they already have most of the building blocks.
There's an old improv game you can play that does sort of the same thing, and even absolute beginners can use it to free up their musical mind. And it works one on one, or in groups. Goes like this:
One person plays a note.
The next person plays a note.
And so on.
No rules--you can play any single note you want, for as short or long, soft or loud, plain or ornamented, bowed or pizzicato, etc.
For two people, you just trade turns.
In a group, sit or stand in a circle and just go around the circle.
More experienced players quickly get the hang of this and tend to gravitate toward a key/mode and timing suggested by the first few notes. But even absolute beginners can have fun with this and surprise themselves.
Of course, you can also do the same thing with phrases--the standard blues or jazz call and response pattern. And you can pre-set a key/mode and time signature, if you want. Endless fun.
# Posted on February 15th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: Teaching - Wisdom Sought
I was reading this thread with a sense of impending doom, like the people in the movie Jaws when the "shark approaching" music starts to play in the background. And sure enough, it all went to heck in a handbasket. Fortunately, SFWL got some good suggestions before the games began. And I agree with ceolochan, from the contributions SWFL has made to this board, I can see he has the right attitude, which is the most important thing of all when it comes to inspiring students.
Reverend, just when you thought it was safe to go back in the water........
# Posted on February 15th 2008 by AlBrown
Re: Teaching - Wisdom Sought
There is a French concert pianist who has been blind from birth (his name escapes me for the moment) but one thing very characteristic of his playing is that he is not fettered by bar lines. He plays the music in phrases. The iconoclastic French composer Satie composed a number of piano pieces with no bar lines. It's very refreshening to play them.
A millennium and a half ago Gregorian chant didn't have bar lines; it had something far better - little notations to do with the phrasing of the words being chanted, and breathing pauses.
# Posted on February 15th 2008 by lazyhound
Re: Teaching - Wisdom Sought
"Bear in mind when you teach the phrases that they often cross bar lines in this music--what gives it its characteristic flow."
Will, thank you - that's as good a one-sentence characterization of this kind of music as any I've ever seen, and it just put an awful lot into focus for me.
# Posted on February 15th 2008 by Tall, Dark, and Mysterious
Re: Teaching - Wisdom Sought
>>> Reverend, just when you thought it was safe to go back in the water........
Heh, of course, I was the one that stirred it up by saying that I teach a tune every lesson, and that I rely on tunes instead of scales to teach structure.
But it's back to sunning on the beach for me now :-B
# Posted on February 15th 2008 by Reverend
Re: Teaching - Wisdom Sought
or is it B-)
# Posted on February 15th 2008 by Reverend
Re: Teaching - Wisdom Sought
darn it!
# Posted on February 15th 2008 by Reverend
Re: Teaching - Wisdom Sought
Sunning on the beach! shouldn't you be practising your scales and arpeggio?sorry, tunes....
# Posted on February 15th 2008 by jig
Re: Teaching - Wisdom Sought
# Posted on February 15th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: Teaching - Wisdom Sought
* Will CPT: "Bear in mind when you teach the phrases that they often cross bar lines in this music--what gives it its characteristic flow."
* 'c': Yes, an important point, absolutely, but that doesn't obviate the down with the up, or the 'lead-in', or the value of the bar line, the beat and breath of this dance music and its phrasing, its definition and flow...
* jig: "Bar lines, interesting point. They are simply guides to structure and phrasing. In fact if the musical phrase crosses bar lines should they be there? If you teach by ear, there are no bar lines, there are only musical phrases/statements .Its only when you write it down that they appear."
* 'c': The bar lines are there from a sense of what the music says as 'dance music', something too many are sadly disconnected from. All those structural points are obvious to the ears too, whether you read or not, and if we're on about this lovely instrument of music, the fiddle, it's there in the bow. You can also see it, if we want to be dryly analytical about it, with the visual wave form from recordings of this music, and more clearly with solo instruments, like this beloved thing the fiddle. Yes, there can be a lead in, and guess what, that is usually dance related too, but never more than a beat's worth, just before, guess what, the 'bar line' ~ like the start of the 'skip' of a 'skip-1-2-3' in a hornpipe step ~ or, using 'N' for 'note', 4/4 ~ N2 | N2 N2 N2... The bar still has value and purpose, the start of the 1-2-3 of the step... some tunes are more emphatic about this. The change to notating slides as 12/8 was also to accomodate that longer phrase definition and swing in that particular version of the single jig... The phrases, as with the dance it is mated to, a relationship too often blown to hell by both classical and session musicians, are also the dance ~ 2 bars / 4 bars / 8 bars / 16 bars / 32 bars ~ etc... It isn't accidental or random. It is custom tailored as opposed to off the shelf or slapped together from torn bits of cloth and glue and roughly representing a coat... This is on the whole, one-size-fits-all, with rare exception... That is also part of its charm.
* lazyhound: "He plays the music in phrases."
* 'c': I've had that pleasure, to play with at least half a dozen different blind musicians. They weren't illiterate. I can't think of one that didn't read music ~ braille music... Beat, bar and phrase were not a problem... They were ~ great dance musicians... But, as well, the two I'm thinking of now, also were damned fine dancers too. The problems were never them, it was idiots on the dance floor that couldn't deal with it and would 'walk around them' as if they had something contagious...
It is, first and formost, dance music, about dance, and it reflects that shared structure, part of which is well help together with bar lines, if you choose to read the music, dots or ABCs, but not a straight jacket, a useful guide... That said, I have seen and heard the hell that can result when someone takes it as gospel and chops the music up like feeding wood scraps to a hopper... Yuck!
Yeah, I'd ran away when things got hot here, but I came back. I'm a fan of Will's wisdom...and lazyhound's too, and others, having just named two... If nobody else has said so, I value highly your constructive and inspirational comment...
I don't mind the occassional controversy, but when it gets personal, and I've slipped on my own snot a few times too, well, I tend to back away slowly and look for a clear exit...
# Posted on February 15th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: Teaching - Wisdom Sought
Fair play C. wisdom sought... wisdom found.
# Posted on February 15th 2008 by jig
Re: Teaching - Wisdom Sought
"If I were nearer and you were throwing a group lesson I wouldn't think twice about coming along"
Mr. C, wouldn't we be blessed?
"Ian - any idea what age groups you'll be teaching? Young kids? Teens? Just adults?"
Will, in a short answer yes. HA! I've had my sons' schoolmates parents ask me for lessons, as well as fine elderly ladies and gents at sessions.
Rev Pete, where are ya on vaca, Cali?
Next season, come to the Golfo de Mexico, mi amigo!
Mr. AlBrown, they can't keep us down. The water is always safe. Be brave, dive in, throw some elbows, clear a space with some decency.
Thank you all, this is a place to learn, and those who came before did serious work. Glad to e-see a bunch of you again!
So how about both? Rev Pete seems to have the right idea, individual as well as group settings. I'm working closely with my local Irish American Cultural club on this...which is half the motivation to get off my duff in the first place about it.
I'll report back!
# Posted on February 16th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Teaching - Wisdom Sought
SWFL, I'm only sunning on the *proverbial* beach to stay out of the shark-infested waters...
But I haven't given up on the idea of a trip down your way to get out of the cold one of these days...
Pete
# Posted on February 16th 2008 by Reverend
Re: Teaching - Wisdom Sought
" ~ out of the shark-infested waters ~" ~ Rev
Ha! Then what are you doing splashing about here?
SWFL, I recently got pushed back in the deep end myself. I'm skulling before the water ballet stuff starts...
# Posted on February 16th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: Teaching - Wisdom Sought
>> Ha! Then what are you doing splashing about here?
Well, was *trying* to help out Ian with some suggestions... but apparently, I was just winding people up about learning with tunes instead of scales and arpeggios!
Besides, you gotta dive in every now and then, or you get sunburned lying on the beach.
# Posted on February 16th 2008 by Reverend
Re: Teaching - Wisdom Sought
I smell a session in Florida!
Ian, group lessons or workshops are a lot different than teaching one-on-one. It helps to have a wide range of tunes, musical games, etc., to be able to help people with the wide variety of skills and abilities they'll bring to it. You may want to jot down an outline of stuff you can teach, depending on who shows up and what they're needs/expectations are. I've found that it helps to think through the sequencing of things ahead of time.
For example, to teach rolls on fiddle, I start with cuts (because they're an element of rolls). I start with using the ring finger to cut an index finger note (say, B on the A string). Then I show using the middle finger as an option. Then we go through cuts on all the other fingers, ending with pinky cuts on ring finger notes and also open string cuts. Then on to rolls, starting back at the index finger (a roll on B, for instance). And explain the difference between percussive rolls (a la Kevin Burke) and more open, notey rolls (a la Brian Conway or Seamus Connolly). And then work through how I (and other musicians) think about playing rolls in tunes.
After you've taught a few workshops or group lessons, all this becomes second nature. But for the first few times, it helped me to have at least a sketch of a lesson plan.
I teach by ear, but also usually provide abc and sheet music notation for any tunes I teach, as a memory aid and to help any visually-oriented learners. And let them know ahead of time to bring recording devices.
Another thing about group lessons--people tend to get really nervous when asked to play solo in a circle of other players, and in front of the teacher. So I always get the group to warm up--first by having everyone make as many horrible sounds on their instruments as they can. It helps if you do this before even tuning up together. Make lots of "bad" noises yourself, and laugh about it. Then point out that these are still musical sounds--just extreme examples of dissonance or volume, or extra grit or squeeking and squawking. Sometimes I'll play the Chicken Reel to show how such sounds can be incorporated into a tune.
Then we all tune up together, by ear, off my fiddle. Help anyone who needs it.
Then find a tune that everyone knows (or, forless experienced players, one easy note, in either a jig or reel rhythm), and play together. I like using some easy, widely known jig or reel, played at a gentle pace. Have the whole group play it 10 or 12 times in a row together. This lets everyone get used to playing, hearing the acoustics of the room, settling into their comfort zone a bit.
Helps the rest of the time go much easier for everyone.
# Posted on February 17th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: Teaching - Wisdom Sought
>> I smell a session in Florida!
Does that mean you're coming with me, Will?
Pete
# Posted on February 18th 2008 by Reverend
Re: Teaching - Wisdom Sought
(mentally adding up my frequent flyer miles...)
# Posted on February 18th 2008 by Reverend