"The Institutionalization of the Transmission of ITM"
"The Institutionalization of the Transmission of ITM"
Hey there,
Im writing my Final Year Project on this title.
And I wanna hear your View on this topic!
Im a 4th year student on the B.A. in Irish music and dance at Limerick University. If you want to gain a little insight into how this course works, Read on.
Each student chooses a first and second instrument (the second instrument can be learned as a complete beginner).
For your first instrument, you get one on one tuition an hour a week. Sometimes the same goes for your second instrument. If not, you’re taught as part of a small group.
Every student also learns, song, dance, music theory and piano every semester.
We also have electives to be studied for 1 semester. These have included, history of Irish music and dance, folklore, Irish, entrepreneurship, geography, classical music, history of Ireland and others.
We also do a co-op placement. Each student organises their own. This could be playing on a tour, working in an archive,
teaching music voluntarily... you get the idea.
A Eurasmus scheme is also in place. So you can go and study one semester in say, Cape Breton, New York, Glasgow, Stockholm, Helsinki and other places and get a feel for their music.
Also we get master classes for 3 or 4 times a semester with some of the living giants of the tradition.
Along with all this, there are lunchtime concerts nearly everyday where these giants give a concert for free!
You can imagine there is a lot of running around going on here at UL.
Naturally, the majority of traditional musicians tend to be sound. And when your not run off your feet, its a nice place to be.
The workload can be heavy at times. And the university is such a hive of activity you have to take some time out too.
There is a definite air of professionalism, but there is also sometimes a distinct lack of organisation and it can be frustrating.
The students also have a tradional irish music society
Gan Ainm - which puts on Host of Events and activites Including "Campus Trad" a mini Irish music weekend festival hosted on campus. On next weekend actually. Last Year Flook and Deaf Shepard played. Twas gReat craic. This year Pick of the Litter, Beoga and Buille are playing. Tickets are 20 euro for the whole weekend, 15th and 16th Feb. If your about, come on over!
And because there are so many musicians here, there are fine sessions to be had in Limerick City.
That’s about the size of it, I think.
You have to take the rough with the smooth.
I’m so use to it at this stage. I wonder how does this environment sound to a regular traditional musician?
How do you think it affects the music?
Re: "The Institutionalization of the Transmission of ITM"
Herself, the teacher, would wonder about the repeated posting. When I was in college we used to pass term papers...or at the very least research materials to the next generation.
I did this blue berry farm project that had students visiting me 20 years after I graduated.
Re: "The Institutionalization of the Transmission of ITM"
Well to me Roisin it sounds wonderful. I am seriously tempted myself. I may yet make enquiries.
How do I think it affects the music? well personally I think it is but one stream of countless streams heading to the ocean. The ocean is mighty large .
Re: "The Institutionalization of the Transmission of ITM"
Hi roisinrua. That's awesome. You're lucky.
I just spent the last 9 hours doing homework for my stupid engineering degree. Wish I could have spent that time working on my fiddle or accordion playing instead.
Re: "The Institutionalization of the Transmission of ITM"
Its not a rehash. she asked this question before, but no one replied. So she started a fresh discussion in the hope of an answer. Seems perfectly legitimate to me. Surely we are all free to contribute or not. Topics get left behind here very easily. There are also A lot of different discussions. Different people arrive all the time so it appears to be a sensible tactic to reintroduce a topic at the head of the list if someone feels they wish to do so.
Re: "The Institutionalization of the Transmission of ITM" I was
I did ask this question before . And I got some great replies, Thank you again to all for your comments. And yes I was re-hatching the subject just in case it was getting left behind.
The other thread "Learning ITM @ University... and other institutions" is a good read.
Re: "The Institutionalization of the Transmission of ITM"
When you're in need sometimes you have to ask again and again for help, hoping someone will listen, understand, and have an answer...
We may get this again from someone else, as there is also the practice of instructors giving a list to select from. The 'topic' will always be something worthy of discussion...
The school and the course sounds a dream, but there are always hitches, and problems of organization are not confined to this institution or this course...
Yes, I have serious problems with the 'institutionalization' of this shared interest of ours, whether through organizations like Comhaltas and the dreaded 'Dance Comisiun', the damned competitions, or through the certification processes that include the programs promoted by organizations and institutions, like the one described. There is always the defined 'good intentions', but such motives have resulted in the battering and destruction of the thing they choose to focus their energies on.
The concern I have is with regards to the things in 'tradition' that aren't quantifiable, that lack a clear 'product identity', that don't fit comfortably into categories you can treat in a clearly 'scientific' way as 'material'. If we turn it into something 'clinical' and 'technical' ~ to be 'certifiable' ~ the push of competitions and the bent of institutionalizing a thing, we also risk losing those aspects of it that can't be diluted and rushed through in a nice neat encapsulation for a lecture or class. Such packaging too easily
skip over things we tend to take for granted, things that consequentally don't fit the value structures of an institution, generally, or a competition. You aren't graded in either situation on your humanity or humility or your sense of humour. You pack into a class or workshop, compress and select, just those things that are 'technically' obvious. The heart and life of the tradition can be missed.
If you distill, reduce, the occurance and transmission, one example, of say "The Bank of Turf", which by reports, and more than one tune has taken the name, was learned while cutting turf, shared, out in the open between friends, with respect and humour ~ down from a full day of hard work and laughter ~ to dots, and maybe some salient and useful points on technique ~ you've lost the picture, the whole multi-dimensional occurance of this fragile thing we call 'tradition'. What are the possible results of such distillation and reduction to the measurable elements ~ something potentially sterile. Yes, it may be able to fake it. It will likely be technically very impressive, clean, pure, analytical and sterile. That's the possible extreme, but I have smelled a bit hospital disinfectant about some music in the present mix. This is why I love the Cape Breton term 'dirt', that the music needs to have some of that in it to be real, to show it is connected to people and the world we live in. 'Institutionalization' of this tradition threatens to steal if from us and make it a new 'classical' form, for professionals and those fond of showing us what they can do rather than sharing the music ~ and much more than just that. Something similar has happened before, with the move from the Renaissance and Country dance into the Baroque in the 1700s. Money can be part of that drive, as is obvious in the potential wealth to be imagined by institutionalization, accrediting, certification and competition processes ~ in steps ~ that cost. Sometimes we fool ourselves into thinking we've the 'best' in mind for the thing we've been drawn to, that we can by design make it better than it is. Part of that lie we build for ourselves is that 'we' by its nature suggests exclusion, a 'select' group, who have some inner knowledge and responsibility and right to drive things on ~ to where we think they should be. 'Tradition' by its fuller nature is not a single person or a single group, but something larger. I have yet to see an organization that has formed for the supposed 'good of tradition' that hasn't also done harm, and proved to exclude some others that didn't fit the narrow definition of the clique driving that particular vested interest...
How often I've seen and experienced where a small group have taken control and ceased to be fully connected to the community it professes to represent, and in their zeal to do as they think fit and right have neglected others... I don't quite know what the answer is. I think we could at least try to be more inclusive, to keep communication open and balanced and somewhat equal, where one person or one oligarchy of a few do not count so much more than any single voice or other group in their realm of concern. I think we can try better to emulate something real in the past of this tradition, human and on a community level ~ more so than toward the big lumbering institution driven by greed, personalities and a blind adherence to their own self interests, and limited understanding of the whole... What is that whole? Well, a lot of our source musicians weren't necessarily great technicians, but they were wonderful people, welcoming, hospitable, kind and patient, and funny ~ but also real, imperfect, and with cares and worries, families and other interests. They were people who valued much more than just the music, and for who the music was in the main about being social, sharing, being communal, good seasoning for a gathering of friends and family, but not the whole meal. That is at least the experiences I've had on the whole, and those I've learned to love and respect. Yeah, there were exceptions, there are always exceptions, that to is the nature of human activity... I do think there is a problem when that humanity starts to be bypassed for something more analytical and measurable... Yes, I too value the history and the technical and enjoy dabbling in analysis, but it's just a small part of what gives me joy about this thing we call 'tradition'. The greatest joy has always been those characters and sharing a chat, a laugh, a tear, a bit of home baked bread, not white sponge in plastic bags, home churned butter with bits in it, not processed vegetable fat wrapped up in aluminium foil, and endless cups of very strong tea...and the occassional tune... God bless them for giving me time... I am the better for it...
Sorry, I slipped on a rant ~ something like a virtual banana skin, a weakness of mine...
Re: "The Institutionalization of the Transmission of ITM"
Roisin, you seem worried about the trad becoming a bit like classical music? Am I right? All stuffy and led by academics?
Simply - don't worry. There are an unbelieveable number of young and talented players floating about and sharing tunes for that ever to happen.
Also, it should be viewed as a mark of respect that you are studying Trad as a degree. Perhaps twenty years ago this would have seemed rediculous (to the establishment).
Just remember that you are doing it because you like it. That's enough.
Re: "The Institutionalization of the Transmission of ITM"
Sometimes it is constructive to play devil's advocate, and worry isn't bad if it leads to positive action and doesn't just fester. It is good to question our passions, sometimes almost a 'religion' for some, and not to take things for granted, or too seriously...
Re: "The Institutionalization of the Transmission of ITM"
Proof of life and health is the ability of a thing to adapt and to survive the occassional prod of inquiry. It shouldn't be just about looking for fault, but looking for solutions and balance... There is no progress without inquiry. Neglect will only end badly. Taking a thing for granted usually results in loss, of some kind. Looking in and questioning the things you care about are part of that care and passion. If you haven't got that drive, I suspect something important is missing...
Re: "The Institutionalization of the Transmission of ITM"
Clear cutting, open pit mining, coal burning tune mills, purification to the point of poisonous run-off, waste management that results in spills and dumping, mega-farming and mono-culture, free range versus the intensively raised in hot-house sessions... Sessioners so force fed and fattened with tunes they can barely stand...
Re: "The Institutionalization of the Transmission of ITM"
Yes, why can't sound waves and the necessary movements required for playing the music and dancing to it be harnessed for the additional good of electricity generation?
"The Institutionalization of the Transmission of ITM"
"The Institutionalization of the Transmission of ITM"
Hey there,
Im writing my Final Year Project on this title.
And I wanna hear your View on this topic!
Im a 4th year student on the B.A. in Irish music and dance at Limerick University. If you want to gain a little insight into how this course works, Read on.
Each student chooses a first and second instrument (the second instrument can be learned as a complete beginner).
For your first instrument, you get one on one tuition an hour a week. Sometimes the same goes for your second instrument. If not, you’re taught as part of a small group.
Every student also learns, song, dance, music theory and piano every semester.
We also have electives to be studied for 1 semester. These have included, history of Irish music and dance, folklore, Irish, entrepreneurship, geography, classical music, history of Ireland and others.
We also do a co-op placement. Each student organises their own. This could be playing on a tour, working in an archive,
teaching music voluntarily... you get the idea.
A Eurasmus scheme is also in place. So you can go and study one semester in say, Cape Breton, New York, Glasgow, Stockholm, Helsinki and other places and get a feel for their music.
Also we get master classes for 3 or 4 times a semester with some of the living giants of the tradition.
Along with all this, there are lunchtime concerts nearly everyday where these giants give a concert for free!
You can imagine there is a lot of running around going on here at UL.
Naturally, the majority of traditional musicians tend to be sound. And when your not run off your feet, its a nice place to be.
The workload can be heavy at times. And the university is such a hive of activity you have to take some time out too.
There is a definite air of professionalism, but there is also sometimes a distinct lack of organisation and it can be frustrating.
The students also have a tradional irish music society
Gan Ainm - which puts on Host of Events and activites Including "Campus Trad" a mini Irish music weekend festival hosted on campus. On next weekend actually. Last Year Flook and Deaf Shepard played. Twas gReat craic. This year Pick of the Litter, Beoga and Buille are playing. Tickets are 20 euro for the whole weekend, 15th and 16th Feb. If your about, come on over!
And because there are so many musicians here, there are fine sessions to be had in Limerick City.
That’s about the size of it, I think.
You have to take the rough with the smooth.
I’m so use to it at this stage. I wonder how does this environment sound to a regular traditional musician?
How do you think it affects the music?
# Posted on February 9th 2008 by roisinrua
Re: "The Institutionalization of the Transmission of ITM"
There's been a slip-up here - this has been posted before.
Interesting subject, though.
# Posted on February 9th 2008 by nicholas
Re: "The Institutionalization of the Transmission of ITM"
Herself, the teacher, would wonder about the repeated posting. When I was in college we used to pass term papers...or at the very least research materials to the next generation.
I did this blue berry farm project that had students visiting me 20 years after I graduated.
Herself makes a dynamite blueberry pie......
# Posted on February 9th 2008 by zippydw
Re: "The Institutionalization of the Transmission of ITM"
Well to me Roisin it sounds wonderful. I am seriously tempted myself. I may yet make enquiries.
How do I think it affects the music? well personally I think it is but one stream of countless streams heading to the ocean. The ocean is mighty large .
# Posted on February 9th 2008 by jig
Re: "The Institutionalization of the Transmission of ITM"
Hi roisinrua. That's awesome. You're lucky.
I just spent the last 9 hours doing homework for my stupid engineering degree. Wish I could have spent that time working on my fiddle or accordion playing instead.
# Posted on February 9th 2008 by silver bow
Re: "The Institutionalization of the Transmission of ITM"
Hi Interesting topic, but this all reads like deja-vu. Didn't you post something similar on
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/16595/
Why are we rehashing this subject when a perfectly good thread exists already?
# Posted on February 9th 2008 by Mark Harmer
Re: "The Institutionalization of the Transmission of ITM"
Its not a rehash. she asked this question before, but no one replied. So she started a fresh discussion in the hope of an answer. Seems perfectly legitimate to me. Surely we are all free to contribute or not. Topics get left behind here very easily. There are also A lot of different discussions. Different people arrive all the time so it appears to be a sensible tactic to reintroduce a topic at the head of the list if someone feels they wish to do so.
# Posted on February 9th 2008 by jig
Re: "The Institutionalization of the Transmission of ITM" I was
I did ask this question before . And I got some great replies, Thank you again to all for your comments. And yes I was re-hatching the subject just in case it was getting left behind.
The other thread "Learning ITM @ University... and other institutions" is a good read.
# Posted on February 9th 2008 by roisinrua
Re: "The Institutionalization of the Transmission of ITM"
When you're in need sometimes you have to ask again and again for help, hoping someone will listen, understand, and have an answer...
We may get this again from someone else, as there is also the practice of instructors giving a list to select from. The 'topic' will always be something worthy of discussion...
The school and the course sounds a dream, but there are always hitches, and problems of organization are not confined to this institution or this course...
Yes, I have serious problems with the 'institutionalization' of this shared interest of ours, whether through organizations like Comhaltas and the dreaded 'Dance Comisiun', the damned competitions, or through the certification processes that include the programs promoted by organizations and institutions, like the one described. There is always the defined 'good intentions', but such motives have resulted in the battering and destruction of the thing they choose to focus their energies on.
The concern I have is with regards to the things in 'tradition' that aren't quantifiable, that lack a clear 'product identity', that don't fit comfortably into categories you can treat in a clearly 'scientific' way as 'material'. If we turn it into something 'clinical' and 'technical' ~ to be 'certifiable' ~ the push of competitions and the bent of institutionalizing a thing, we also risk losing those aspects of it that can't be diluted and rushed through in a nice neat encapsulation for a lecture or class. Such packaging too easily
skip over things we tend to take for granted, things that consequentally don't fit the value structures of an institution, generally, or a competition. You aren't graded in either situation on your humanity or humility or your sense of humour. You pack into a class or workshop, compress and select, just those things that are 'technically' obvious. The heart and life of the tradition can be missed.
If you distill, reduce, the occurance and transmission, one example, of say "The Bank of Turf", which by reports, and more than one tune has taken the name, was learned while cutting turf, shared, out in the open between friends, with respect and humour ~ down from a full day of hard work and laughter ~ to dots, and maybe some salient and useful points on technique ~ you've lost the picture, the whole multi-dimensional occurance of this fragile thing we call 'tradition'. What are the possible results of such distillation and reduction to the measurable elements ~ something potentially sterile. Yes, it may be able to fake it. It will likely be technically very impressive, clean, pure, analytical and sterile. That's the possible extreme, but I have smelled a bit hospital disinfectant about some music in the present mix. This is why I love the Cape Breton term 'dirt', that the music needs to have some of that in it to be real, to show it is connected to people and the world we live in. 'Institutionalization' of this tradition threatens to steal if from us and make it a new 'classical' form, for professionals and those fond of showing us what they can do rather than sharing the music ~ and much more than just that. Something similar has happened before, with the move from the Renaissance and Country dance into the Baroque in the 1700s. Money can be part of that drive, as is obvious in the potential wealth to be imagined by institutionalization, accrediting, certification and competition processes ~ in steps ~ that cost. Sometimes we fool ourselves into thinking we've the 'best' in mind for the thing we've been drawn to, that we can by design make it better than it is. Part of that lie we build for ourselves is that 'we' by its nature suggests exclusion, a 'select' group, who have some inner knowledge and responsibility and right to drive things on ~ to where we think they should be. 'Tradition' by its fuller nature is not a single person or a single group, but something larger. I have yet to see an organization that has formed for the supposed 'good of tradition' that hasn't also done harm, and proved to exclude some others that didn't fit the narrow definition of the clique driving that particular vested interest...
How often I've seen and experienced where a small group have taken control and ceased to be fully connected to the community it professes to represent, and in their zeal to do as they think fit and right have neglected others... I don't quite know what the answer is. I think we could at least try to be more inclusive, to keep communication open and balanced and somewhat equal, where one person or one oligarchy of a few do not count so much more than any single voice or other group in their realm of concern. I think we can try better to emulate something real in the past of this tradition, human and on a community level ~ more so than toward the big lumbering institution driven by greed, personalities and a blind adherence to their own self interests, and limited understanding of the whole... What is that whole? Well, a lot of our source musicians weren't necessarily great technicians, but they were wonderful people, welcoming, hospitable, kind and patient, and funny ~ but also real, imperfect, and with cares and worries, families and other interests. They were people who valued much more than just the music, and for who the music was in the main about being social, sharing, being communal, good seasoning for a gathering of friends and family, but not the whole meal. That is at least the experiences I've had on the whole, and those I've learned to love and respect. Yeah, there were exceptions, there are always exceptions, that to is the nature of human activity... I do think there is a problem when that humanity starts to be bypassed for something more analytical and measurable... Yes, I too value the history and the technical and enjoy dabbling in analysis, but it's just a small part of what gives me joy about this thing we call 'tradition'. The greatest joy has always been those characters and sharing a chat, a laugh, a tear, a bit of home baked bread, not white sponge in plastic bags, home churned butter with bits in it, not processed vegetable fat wrapped up in aluminium foil, and endless cups of very strong tea...and the occassional tune... God bless them for giving me time... I am the better for it...
Sorry, I slipped on a rant ~ something like a virtual banana skin, a weakness of mine...
# Posted on February 9th 2008 by ceolachan
Sometimes it's just that slick and polished you risk crackin' your skull or sliding off the edge...
# Posted on February 9th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: "The Institutionalization of the Transmission of ITM"
Roisin, you seem worried about the trad becoming a bit like classical music? Am I right? All stuffy and led by academics?
Simply - don't worry. There are an unbelieveable number of young and talented players floating about and sharing tunes for that ever to happen.
Also, it should be viewed as a mark of respect that you are studying Trad as a degree. Perhaps twenty years ago this would have seemed rediculous (to the establishment).
Just remember that you are doing it because you like it. That's enough.
# Posted on February 10th 2008 by richrua
Re: "The Institutionalization of the Transmission of ITM"
Sometimes it is constructive to play devil's advocate, and worry isn't bad if it leads to positive action and doesn't just fester. It is good to question our passions, sometimes almost a 'religion' for some, and not to take things for granted, or too seriously...
# Posted on February 10th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: "The Institutionalization of the Transmission of ITM"
Proof of life and health is the ability of a thing to adapt and to survive the occassional prod of inquiry. It shouldn't be just about looking for fault, but looking for solutions and balance... There is no progress without inquiry. Neglect will only end badly. Taking a thing for granted usually results in loss, of some kind. Looking in and questioning the things you care about are part of that care and passion. If you haven't got that drive, I suspect something important is missing...
# Posted on February 10th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: "The Institutionalization of the Transmission of ITM"
I can't help reading the heading as "The Industrialisation of the Transmission of ITM".
Opencasting County Clare, separating out the tune-dust and putting it in the nation's tap-water like fluoride, I suppose...
# Posted on February 10th 2008 by nicholas
Re: "The Institutionalization of the Transmission of ITM"
Clear cutting, open pit mining, coal burning tune mills, purification to the point of poisonous run-off, waste management that results in spills and dumping, mega-farming and mono-culture, free range versus the intensively raised in hot-house sessions... Sessioners so force fed and fattened with tunes they can barely stand...
# Posted on February 10th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: "The Institutionalization of the Transmission of ITM"
There MUST be some way to use tunes to power the National Grid!
# Posted on February 10th 2008 by nicholas
Re: "The Institutionalization of the Transmission of ITM"
Yes, why can't sound waves and the necessary movements required for playing the music and dancing to it be harnessed for the additional good of electricity generation?
# Posted on February 10th 2008 by ceolachan