I've been playing the violin for about 8 years with classical training and I'm currently doing my Grade 6. About a year ago I got interested in traditional music.
Now I want to play the violin as a fiddle and I hope to participate at the Fleadh but I've never been to one before (Aside from the dance version) and I have no experience of performing trad music.
Also I'm not sure if there's any more fiddle techniques I need to learn. I know how to do the ornamentations from classical training but I need to know if there's more to it.
I am hoping to play Castle Kelly and The Connachtman's Rambles for the Fleadh, but if anyone could suggest better pieces to play, please tell me of them.
Since I have no experience of fiddle playing I'm also quite nervous that I wont play the pieces properly and might be playing them in a more classical style than a traditional one.
I'd appreciate if someone could help me with these things that have been troubling me since I dont want to go to the Fleadh and completely mess it up.
keep listening to good fiddle players girl and don't assume it's easy!!! i'm the opposite, went from trad to classical. love them both but they're very different.
best of luck in the fleadh anyway
lynne
I went from classical to trad too. It's a big change; you have to keep in mind that you are learning new technique, not just new pieces.
For instance, classical ornaments are not at all the same as trad ornaments. A roll is not the same as a turn, for instance. And the bowing in trad is different from what you're used to from classical playing.
It will take time, don't worry if you can't get the trad sound right away. Spend a lot of time listening to trad, and try to play the tunes along with recordings to get the feel of it right. Taking some lessons from a trad fiddler would be a huge help.
Good luck! I think you'll find fiddling to be a whole lot of fun!
As someone who did just that, went from classical to trad, I can tell you that there is a certain feel, a certain way of using the bow in trad that is very different from classical. I would suggest (like others) that you listen to the music, go to sessions, watch and listen, and find a teacher. The teacher needs to be someone in the tradition, that can be honest with you about your sound, someone you can learn tunes from.
The ornaments are not treated the same in trad as in classical.
Have fun, be open to new ideas.
If I understand correctly, a fleadh is a competition. Why do you want to do a competition? Why don't you just play trad for enjoyment like a regular person? Or is competition so ingrained in classical training that you figure it's the only path to trad?
You can't learn how to play Irish music from online discussion boards. You need to find someone who's an expert in the traditional and take regular, intensive lessons of a period of years.
I suggest that you find a good teacher of Irish fiddle and ask them to give you an honest evaluation of your playing. That should tell you what you need to address.
I think it is great you want to play Castle Kelly.
I have mostly heard it in session but I will go out on a limb here. I did a search & found this recording: http://www.thesession.org/recordings/display/894
My bet is a recording of the Tulla Ceilidh Band with the Hayes family is as good a version as you will find.
Good luck!
I have to say that I'm in your exact position, Savrone (although have no desire to compete). My only comment to you is, after just three years of trying to learn ITM, the more I learn, the more I realize I don't know -- I used to think the tunes were "easy" because there was no shifting involved, no cadenzas, etc., and most tunes were in relatively easy keys. Now I know better -- although I realize that I don't know that much yet. It's easy to play the notes, but so hard to play them in the traditional way, something I'm not even close to yet.
The good (or great!) news is that I have never enjoyed my violin/fiddle so much as now, and, for the most part, the people are so helpful and (in my case) tolerant as long as you are willing to learn! Best of luck! (It's becoming a sort of addiction for me...)
I started out (and still play) classical viola, and picked up fiddle along the way (have been playing viola for 16 years, and fiddle for about 7.) One thing that is important is listen to trad music. Listen to all that you can get your hands on! Go to sessions at a pub and get a feel for the music. It's not necessary for you to get a trad teacher (I never had one), but I've been in two trad bands, so I have been able to play with three other fiddlers on a regular basis.
One thing that I noticed my friend Mel having problems with the switchover (classical violin to trad fiddle) is that she kept her notes so crisp, and so 'classical', that it really took away from the earthiness of trad. So my advice would be to slur your notes together, slide your fingers when shifting of changing notes, get it a little 'dirty' and don't be afraid to crunch your bow every once in a while! Yes, trad is hard, but so is classical (I would know, I play at a university level!), so don't let anybody knock you for wanting to compete in trad. Good Luck!
Thanks for the advice guys.
I see many of you are asking why I want to do the Fleadh.
My friend is playing there and we've said we'd both go to the Fleadh.
Also as far as I know there aren't any sessions around here I can play at so the only chance to heare or play the music soon would be there especially since I dont know the location or dates of any festivals.
What's the difference between the classical and traditional ornamentations? I asumed they were very similar if not the same.
Since most of you are saying to look for a teacher I'll be looking for one. I had thought I could self teach, but obviously its not the case especially since the self teaching wasnt going too well anyway.
I also went from classical to trad, but have now been playing trad for over thirty years.As far as ornaments go , yes classical turns and rolls might appear to be the same on paper, but the emphasis in trad is different, and the only way to get that is to listen to lots of good trad. players, also as several people have suggested, a trad teacher might help.
Good luck with the fleadh, you may well get comments that you sound too classical, but hopefully also some constructive comments to help you with this problem.
Lots of good advice above. You don't necessarily to spend years with a teacher to learn the trad idiom, but you _will_ have to spend years * listening *.
I too made the same transition (more than 30 years ago) and have since had the experience of helping others do the same. A while back I wrote some thoughts about the subject here:
From what you’ve told us above, “Savrone”, my advice would be don’t enter this year. Go along to the Fleadh, if you haven’t been before, and watch and listen. Once you’ve seen how the competitions work, and maybe talked to some of the competitors, you will be in a far better position to enter next year knowing what’s required, if you should choose to do so. You’ll also have had a year to decide which tunes to play, and practice them, and very importantly, perhaps play them in public. You do not want to be making your debut public performance playing traditional music in a Fleadh competition !
Some people here are very against competitions. I’m fairly neutral on them myself. That’s a decision you have to make for yourself, [ and people here should allow you to make that decision and respect it ], but whether for/against or neutral, I’m sure everyone here will tell you that competing shouldn’t be anyone’s main reason for playing music. Learn the music and enjoy playing it. Competing is an optional extra which some people do and some don’t. Good luck, whatever you decide.
In my experience it is a lot more difficult for classical players to cross over to traditional styles than they first suspect. I do know fiddlers who have done it successfully, and they were very well schooled in Baroque and early music and could identify when their playing was departing from the traditional style. Listening well to good playing is the most important thing (for this I’d avoid the session circuit to be honest, and certainly I’d avoid competitions!) Many classically trained so-called fiddle-teachers are importing classical stylistic elements into traditional music, the effect is horrible and you should do your best to avoid this
Unlike classical music (or most of it at least), in Irish & Scottish music there is typically no vibrato whatever, the notes swing (i.e., have a distinctly weighted rhythm), on the fiddle the up-bow and the down-bow have much the same strength (quite unlike Baroque violin music, for instance, where the up-bow is given a significantly lighter touch). Recently, there has been a serious change to Irish playing where the weak beats are being given heavier emphasis than the strong (like in jazz or bluegrass); this is a dreadful innovation and should be avoided. The ornamentation is completely different. Many of the finger ornaments are done without lifting the finger completely off the string or stopping the string completely (this is the case with rolls). The effect is that the ornaments are less cleanly executed than in classical music, unlearning the clean movements of the fingers is very difficult. Bowed Irish triplets and Scottish ‘birls’ are very distinct from classical triplets (which are quite even in comparison). The swing is one of the most difficult things for some classical musicians to get. In Donegal playing only the top third of the bow is used (as in much staccato playing in classical music), though many Donegal players (especially the famous ones) are starting to play nearer the frog, with the effect of making the sound very harsh. The over-emphasised weak beat, or heavy up bow as it frequently is, is made more likely by veering away from playing near the point of the bow; the point being where a proper swing is more natural.
If you can’t find a teacher (who is hopefully not playing a quasi-classical style), and indeed even if you can, have a look at Kevin Burke’s two DVDs “Learn to Play Irish Fiddle” (from Homespun), they’re pretty cheap on Amazon!
Have a listen to recordings of the masters James Morrison, Hugh Gillespie, Mickey Doherty, Neillie Boyle, Angus Grant, or P. J. Hayes. Of all these I'd recommend the CD of Hugh Gillespie, it will blow your mind!
There are also some great compilations of Irish fiddle music: “From Galway to Dublin” and “Past Masters of Irish Fiddle Music” (have recordings of some of the greatest players mid-twentieth century, including Donegal fiddler Neillie Boyle, one track on each CD.) Also superb (with more than just fiddlers) is “The Wheels of the World”, Volumes 1 & 2. (Again, all these are not too expensive on Amazon.) And “The Brass Fiddle” is an unparalleled collection of Donegal fiddle playing recorded in the 1980s, and is an indication of just how different traditional fiddle is stylistically from classical music (something that may not be as apparent in (“Irish-music-lite”) competitions.
"From what you've told us above, Savrone, my advice would be don't enter this year."
Pshaw. Go to the fleadh! Enter! Just don't expect to win. Go and have a great time. Take the Scoil Eigse classes! Meet people! Play in sessions! I can honestly think of no better introduction to playing Irish traditional music.
That said, I will concur completely with those who said you should enter with a sense of humility. Traditional musicians listen for rhythm, texture, ornamentation, and creative variations where classical musicians would be listening for tone and intonation.
Playing to classical sensibilities amongst trad players is like bringing figure-skating skills to a hockey game. What you don't understand about it will be far more important than what you DO understand about it.
But don't fret about it. Dive in, and keep a humble attitude. Try to learn where the differences are, try to appreciate them, and to imitate them yourself. If people see that you are trying to learn, they'll be much more friendly and accomodating than if they think you're coming in with a cocky attitude and an unjustified superiority complex.
Imagine a trad player, who's never played classical music, coming in to a string quartet rehearsal:
"I don't feel like playing THOSE notes, THESE ones sounds nicer!"
"Hey! You guys are slowing down and speeding up! Don't you have any sense of RHYTHM?"
It would be just as annoying as the classical violinist who thinks they understand trad music because it's "easier"
"have a look at Kevin Burke’s two DVDs “Learn to Play Irish Fiddle” (from Homespun)"
I'll second that. I first got them on VHS and wore them out. They're excellent. You can see exactly how trad ornaments are done from these videos; he breaks them down and explains how to do them. If you really want to see the difference between a roll and a turn, watch his second video.
Quite right, I never mentioned why Kevin Burke's DVDs are important and worth getting. He explains in some detail how the ornaments you hear in Irish music are actually performed. (Though he drops his wrist for bowed triplets, which gives the distinctive Kevin Burke-style triplet; but I think that it produces a better sound, a more ringing old style triplet, if you get used to not dropping the wrist!) Kevin Burke knows what he's at though, very important and interesting traditional technique and costs less than a single lesson!
Doi! Actually he bends the wrist and drops the hand, giving a grungy triplet, but I'd avoid that technique or at least you should be aware that it's not the only way to bow Irish triplets!
I’m sorry you seem to be getting conflicting advice here, “Savrone”, from myself and “Georgi”. I know what I’m talking about, because I entered a lot of competitions in the 1980s. No doubt “Georgi” had different experiences from me in the competitions he/she entered, and perhaps might like to tell us about it ?
I've had a bit of competition experience, sure. It was fine. Sometimes I won (which was nice), sometimes I lost (which sucked), but in the end I think it was a generally positive experience. Besides, knowing I was going to compete made me practice, which is a uniformly good thing.
If nothing else, it was the intention to compete that brought me to the fleadh in the first place, and it was AT the fleadh that I met so many great friends and musicians.
If you want to compete, Savrone, then compete. If you don't want to, then don't.
When I started playing old-time, competitions were the only place I could find that type of music being played (around here, anyways). They have a fiddle club, but it is not like a session at all. it is more like a competition in that folks get up and play their hoedown, waltz, and tune of choice (jig, rag, etc) then sit down and listen. Very boring. I enjoyed the competitions for a couple of years, won and lost, but the last competition got really ugly because I finally beat someone that I had never beaten before. She was really nasty about it. I found it to be quite a back-stabbing community, so now stay far away.
I'd say to go, enter if you want, with the understanding that competitions are well, competitions: there are winners and losers. Maybe folks there are friendlier. Keep an open mind and have fun.
Fair enough, Georgi. I just don't think a competition is the place to start for someone who has "no experience of performing traditional music". We can agree to disagree. Your choice Savrone, - and actually Georgi's experience of competitions would appear to be much the same as my own.
How can you simultaneously recommend Kevin Burke and decry the "recent" trend to emphasize backbeats? Is that not a major characteristic of his playing to your ears?
Quite right, Kevin Burke does push the off-beat quite a bit. I was listening to ‘If the Cap Fits’ recently and I think that he really over does it the in places. I prefer his playing with the Bothy Band and with Micheal Ó Domnhmall. In general I can tolerate, and rather like the little skip he puts into the tunes. I recommended Kevin Burke mainly because, as far as I know, he’s got the best DVD available and it’s a good thing to look at if you come from the conventional end of classical violin, and he shows how ornamentation is done. The very heavy off-beat you get now among many session players (and even Donegal fiddlers have adopted this very recently) sounds like: ‘do WAH, do WAH’ the emphasised weak beat totally eclipses the down beat. Horrible!
I do like John Doherty's playing. But I prefer Mickey Doherty's fiddle playing and overall style to John's. John played reels without much swing in the James Scott Skinner style which was influenced by Scottish military piping, and Mickey is supposed to have played more like their father Michael, in the old Rosses style. Vincent Campbell also said he thinks that Mickey Doherty was a better fiddler than John.
From Classical to Trad
From Classical to Trad
I've been playing the violin for about 8 years with classical training and I'm currently doing my Grade 6. About a year ago I got interested in traditional music.
Now I want to play the violin as a fiddle and I hope to participate at the Fleadh but I've never been to one before (Aside from the dance version) and I have no experience of performing trad music.
Also I'm not sure if there's any more fiddle techniques I need to learn. I know how to do the ornamentations from classical training but I need to know if there's more to it.
I am hoping to play Castle Kelly and The Connachtman's Rambles for the Fleadh, but if anyone could suggest better pieces to play, please tell me of them.
Since I have no experience of fiddle playing I'm also quite nervous that I wont play the pieces properly and might be playing them in a more classical style than a traditional one.
I'd appreciate if someone could help me with these things that have been troubling me since I dont want to go to the Fleadh and completely mess it up.
# Posted on February 7th 2008 by Savrone
Re: From Classical to Trad
You don't know how to do the ornaments from classical training.
There's a lot to learn.
What's the burning passion to do the fleadh?
# Posted on February 7th 2008 by reenactor
Re: From Classical to Trad
keep listening to good fiddle players girl and don't assume it's easy!!! i'm the opposite, went from trad to classical. love them both but they're very different.
best of luck in the fleadh anyway
lynne
# Posted on February 7th 2008 by violynne
Re: From Classical to Trad
I went from classical to trad too. It's a big change; you have to keep in mind that you are learning new technique, not just new pieces.
For instance, classical ornaments are not at all the same as trad ornaments. A roll is not the same as a turn, for instance. And the bowing in trad is different from what you're used to from classical playing.
It will take time, don't worry if you can't get the trad sound right away. Spend a lot of time listening to trad, and try to play the tunes along with recordings to get the feel of it right. Taking some lessons from a trad fiddler would be a huge help.
Good luck! I think you'll find fiddling to be a whole lot of fun!
# Posted on February 7th 2008 by Marklar
Re: From Classical to Trad
As someone who did just that, went from classical to trad, I can tell you that there is a certain feel, a certain way of using the bow in trad that is very different from classical. I would suggest (like others) that you listen to the music, go to sessions, watch and listen, and find a teacher. The teacher needs to be someone in the tradition, that can be honest with you about your sound, someone you can learn tunes from.
The ornaments are not treated the same in trad as in classical.
Have fun, be open to new ideas.
# Posted on February 7th 2008 by Wyogal
Re: From Classical to Trad
If I understand correctly, a fleadh is a competition. Why do you want to do a competition? Why don't you just play trad for enjoyment like a regular person? Or is competition so ingrained in classical training that you figure it's the only path to trad?
# Posted on February 7th 2008 by sbhikes
Re: From Classical to Trad
You can't learn how to play Irish music from online discussion boards. You need to find someone who's an expert in the traditional and take regular, intensive lessons of a period of years.
# Posted on February 7th 2008 by mcdevincabe
Re: From Classical to Trad
Yes, why the eagerness to jump into competition?
I suggest that you find a good teacher of Irish fiddle and ask them to give you an honest evaluation of your playing. That should tell you what you need to address.
# Posted on February 7th 2008 by Bob himself
Re: From Classical to Trad
I think it is great you want to play Castle Kelly.
I have mostly heard it in session but I will go out on a limb here. I did a search & found this recording:
http://www.thesession.org/recordings/display/894
My bet is a recording of the Tulla Ceilidh Band with the Hayes family is as good a version as you will find.
Good luck!
# Posted on February 7th 2008 by Ben Steen
Re: From Classical to Trad
I have to say that I'm in your exact position, Savrone (although have no desire to compete). My only comment to you is, after just three years of trying to learn ITM, the more I learn, the more I realize I don't know -- I used to think the tunes were "easy" because there was no shifting involved, no cadenzas, etc., and most tunes were in relatively easy keys. Now I know better -- although I realize that I don't know that much yet. It's easy to play the notes, but so hard to play them in the traditional way, something I'm not even close to yet.
The good (or great!) news is that I have never enjoyed my violin/fiddle so much as now, and, for the most part, the people are so helpful and (in my case) tolerant as long as you are willing to learn! Best of luck! (It's becoming a sort of addiction for me...)
# Posted on February 7th 2008 by swillybay
Re: From Classical to Trad
I started out (and still play) classical viola, and picked up fiddle along the way (have been playing viola for 16 years, and fiddle for about 7.) One thing that is important is listen to trad music. Listen to all that you can get your hands on! Go to sessions at a pub and get a feel for the music. It's not necessary for you to get a trad teacher (I never had one), but I've been in two trad bands, so I have been able to play with three other fiddlers on a regular basis.
One thing that I noticed my friend Mel having problems with the switchover (classical violin to trad fiddle) is that she kept her notes so crisp, and so 'classical', that it really took away from the earthiness of trad. So my advice would be to slur your notes together, slide your fingers when shifting of changing notes, get it a little 'dirty' and don't be afraid to crunch your bow every once in a while! Yes, trad is hard, but so is classical (I would know, I play at a university level!), so don't let anybody knock you for wanting to compete in trad. Good Luck!
# Posted on February 7th 2008 by play_for_a_pint
Re: From Classical to Trad
Thanks for the advice guys.
I see many of you are asking why I want to do the Fleadh.
My friend is playing there and we've said we'd both go to the Fleadh.
Also as far as I know there aren't any sessions around here I can play at so the only chance to heare or play the music soon would be there especially since I dont know the location or dates of any festivals.
What's the difference between the classical and traditional ornamentations? I asumed they were very similar if not the same.
Since most of you are saying to look for a teacher I'll be looking for one. I had thought I could self teach, but obviously its not the case especially since the self teaching wasnt going too well anyway.
# Posted on February 7th 2008 by Savrone
Re: From Classical to Trad
I also went from classical to trad, but have now been playing trad for over thirty years.As far as ornaments go , yes classical turns and rolls might appear to be the same on paper, but the emphasis in trad is different, and the only way to get that is to listen to lots of good trad. players, also as several people have suggested, a trad teacher might help.
Good luck with the fleadh, you may well get comments that you sound too classical, but hopefully also some constructive comments to help you with this problem.
# Posted on February 7th 2008 by cathycook
Re: From Classical to Trad
I go to fleadhs all the time to play and never have competed
# Posted on February 7th 2008 by iwerzon
Re: From Classical to Trad
Savrone, you searched for sessions near you on this website?
# Posted on February 7th 2008 by reenactor
Re: From Classical to Trad
Lots of good advice above. You don't necessarily to spend years with a teacher to learn the trad idiom, but you _will_ have to spend years * listening *.
I too made the same transition (more than 30 years ago) and have since had the experience of helping others do the same. A while back I wrote some thoughts about the subject here:
http://www.rogermillington.com/siamsa/brosteve/meditation.html#classical
Good luck now!
# Posted on February 7th 2008 by Jeeves Tones
Re: From Classical to Trad
Great article Jeeves!
A true Believer
# Posted on February 7th 2008 by piobagusfidil
Re: From Classical to Trad
Wow Jeeves, I wish I'd been able to read that back when I crossed over! Great advice.
# Posted on February 7th 2008 by Marklar
Re: From Classical to Trad
From what you’ve told us above, “Savrone”, my advice would be don’t enter this year. Go along to the Fleadh, if you haven’t been before, and watch and listen. Once you’ve seen how the competitions work, and maybe talked to some of the competitors, you will be in a far better position to enter next year knowing what’s required, if you should choose to do so. You’ll also have had a year to decide which tunes to play, and practice them, and very importantly, perhaps play them in public. You do not want to be making your debut public performance playing traditional music in a Fleadh competition !
Some people here are very against competitions. I’m fairly neutral on them myself. That’s a decision you have to make for yourself, [ and people here should allow you to make that decision and respect it ], but whether for/against or neutral, I’m sure everyone here will tell you that competing shouldn’t be anyone’s main reason for playing music. Learn the music and enjoy playing it. Competing is an optional extra which some people do and some don’t. Good luck, whatever you decide.
# Posted on February 7th 2008 by Kenny
Re: From Classical to Trad.
In my experience it is a lot more difficult for classical players to cross over to traditional styles than they first suspect. I do know fiddlers who have done it successfully, and they were very well schooled in Baroque and early music and could identify when their playing was departing from the traditional style. Listening well to good playing is the most important thing (for this I’d avoid the session circuit to be honest, and certainly I’d avoid competitions!) Many classically trained so-called fiddle-teachers are importing classical stylistic elements into traditional music, the effect is horrible and you should do your best to avoid this
Unlike classical music (or most of it at least), in Irish & Scottish music there is typically no vibrato whatever, the notes swing (i.e., have a distinctly weighted rhythm), on the fiddle the up-bow and the down-bow have much the same strength (quite unlike Baroque violin music, for instance, where the up-bow is given a significantly lighter touch). Recently, there has been a serious change to Irish playing where the weak beats are being given heavier emphasis than the strong (like in jazz or bluegrass); this is a dreadful innovation and should be avoided. The ornamentation is completely different. Many of the finger ornaments are done without lifting the finger completely off the string or stopping the string completely (this is the case with rolls). The effect is that the ornaments are less cleanly executed than in classical music, unlearning the clean movements of the fingers is very difficult. Bowed Irish triplets and Scottish ‘birls’ are very distinct from classical triplets (which are quite even in comparison). The swing is one of the most difficult things for some classical musicians to get. In Donegal playing only the top third of the bow is used (as in much staccato playing in classical music), though many Donegal players (especially the famous ones) are starting to play nearer the frog, with the effect of making the sound very harsh. The over-emphasised weak beat, or heavy up bow as it frequently is, is made more likely by veering away from playing near the point of the bow; the point being where a proper swing is more natural.
If you can’t find a teacher (who is hopefully not playing a quasi-classical style), and indeed even if you can, have a look at Kevin Burke’s two DVDs “Learn to Play Irish Fiddle” (from Homespun), they’re pretty cheap on Amazon!
Also look at some of the discussions about the extent to which it is necessary to unlearn classical stylistic elements in order to play traditional music well.
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/14845
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/14962
Have a listen to recordings of the masters James Morrison, Hugh Gillespie, Mickey Doherty, Neillie Boyle, Angus Grant, or P. J. Hayes. Of all these I'd recommend the CD of Hugh Gillespie, it will blow your mind!
There are also some great compilations of Irish fiddle music: “From Galway to Dublin” and “Past Masters of Irish Fiddle Music” (have recordings of some of the greatest players mid-twentieth century, including Donegal fiddler Neillie Boyle, one track on each CD.) Also superb (with more than just fiddlers) is “The Wheels of the World”, Volumes 1 & 2. (Again, all these are not too expensive on Amazon.) And “The Brass Fiddle” is an unparalleled collection of Donegal fiddle playing recorded in the 1980s, and is an indication of just how different traditional fiddle is stylistically from classical music (something that may not be as apparent in (“Irish-music-lite”) competitions.
Happy playing!
# Posted on February 8th 2008 by dsndfkjasf
Re: From Classical to Trad
"From what you've told us above, Savrone, my advice would be don't enter this year."
Pshaw. Go to the fleadh! Enter! Just don't expect to win. Go and have a great time. Take the Scoil Eigse classes! Meet people! Play in sessions! I can honestly think of no better introduction to playing Irish traditional music.
That said, I will concur completely with those who said you should enter with a sense of humility. Traditional musicians listen for rhythm, texture, ornamentation, and creative variations where classical musicians would be listening for tone and intonation.
Playing to classical sensibilities amongst trad players is like bringing figure-skating skills to a hockey game. What you don't understand about it will be far more important than what you DO understand about it.
But don't fret about it. Dive in, and keep a humble attitude. Try to learn where the differences are, try to appreciate them, and to imitate them yourself. If people see that you are trying to learn, they'll be much more friendly and accomodating than if they think you're coming in with a cocky attitude and an unjustified superiority complex.
Imagine a trad player, who's never played classical music, coming in to a string quartet rehearsal:
"I don't feel like playing THOSE notes, THESE ones sounds nicer!"
"Hey! You guys are slowing down and speeding up! Don't you have any sense of RHYTHM?"
It would be just as annoying as the classical violinist who thinks they understand trad music because it's "easier"
# Posted on February 8th 2008 by Georgi
Re: From Classical to Trad
LOL
# Posted on February 8th 2008 by piobagusfidil
Re: From Classical to Trad
"have a look at Kevin Burke’s two DVDs “Learn to Play Irish Fiddle” (from Homespun)"
I'll second that. I first got them on VHS and wore them out. They're excellent. You can see exactly how trad ornaments are done from these videos; he breaks them down and explains how to do them. If you really want to see the difference between a roll and a turn, watch his second video.
# Posted on February 8th 2008 by Marklar
Re: From Classical to Trad
Quite right, I never mentioned why Kevin Burke's DVDs are important and worth getting. He explains in some detail how the ornaments you hear in Irish music are actually performed. (Though he drops his wrist for bowed triplets, which gives the distinctive Kevin Burke-style triplet; but I think that it produces a better sound, a more ringing old style triplet, if you get used to not dropping the wrist!) Kevin Burke knows what he's at though, very important and interesting traditional technique and costs less than a single lesson!
# Posted on February 8th 2008 by dsndfkjasf
Re: From Classical to Trad
Doi! Actually he bends the wrist and drops the hand, giving a grungy triplet, but I'd avoid that technique or at least you should be aware that it's not the only way to bow Irish triplets!
# Posted on February 8th 2008 by dsndfkjasf
Re: From Classical to Trad
I’m sorry you seem to be getting conflicting advice here, “Savrone”, from myself and “Georgi”. I know what I’m talking about, because I entered a lot of competitions in the 1980s. No doubt “Georgi” had different experiences from me in the competitions he/she entered, and perhaps might like to tell us about it ?
# Posted on February 8th 2008 by Kenny
Re: From Classical to Trad
thanks for those recomendations Neddie. I got the wheels 1 and the brass fiddle. Gillespie was 30e so I left that for now.......
# Posted on February 8th 2008 by piobagusfidil
Re: From Classical to Trad
I'm a "he", Kenny.
I've had a bit of competition experience, sure. It was fine. Sometimes I won (which was nice), sometimes I lost (which sucked), but in the end I think it was a generally positive experience. Besides, knowing I was going to compete made me practice, which is a uniformly good thing.
If nothing else, it was the intention to compete that brought me to the fleadh in the first place, and it was AT the fleadh that I met so many great friends and musicians.
If you want to compete, Savrone, then compete. If you don't want to, then don't.
# Posted on February 8th 2008 by Georgi
Re: From Classical to Trad
When I started playing old-time, competitions were the only place I could find that type of music being played (around here, anyways). They have a fiddle club, but it is not like a session at all. it is more like a competition in that folks get up and play their hoedown, waltz, and tune of choice (jig, rag, etc) then sit down and listen. Very boring. I enjoyed the competitions for a couple of years, won and lost, but the last competition got really ugly because I finally beat someone that I had never beaten before. She was really nasty about it. I found it to be quite a back-stabbing community, so now stay far away.
I'd say to go, enter if you want, with the understanding that competitions are well, competitions: there are winners and losers. Maybe folks there are friendlier. Keep an open mind and have fun.
# Posted on February 8th 2008 by Wyogal
Re: From Classical to Trad
Fair enough, Georgi. I just don't think a competition is the place to start for someone who has "no experience of performing traditional music". We can agree to disagree. Your choice Savrone, - and actually Georgi's experience of competitions would appear to be much the same as my own.
# Posted on February 8th 2008 by Kenny
Re: From Classical to Trad
Neddie,
How can you simultaneously recommend Kevin Burke and decry the "recent" trend to emphasize backbeats? Is that not a major characteristic of his playing to your ears?
Disclaimer - I like Kevin Burke just fine....
# Posted on February 9th 2008 by reenactor
Re: From Classical to Trad
Quite right, Kevin Burke does push the off-beat quite a bit. I was listening to ‘If the Cap Fits’ recently and I think that he really over does it the in places. I prefer his playing with the Bothy Band and with Micheal Ó Domnhmall. In general I can tolerate, and rather like the little skip he puts into the tunes. I recommended Kevin Burke mainly because, as far as I know, he’s got the best DVD available and it’s a good thing to look at if you come from the conventional end of classical violin, and he shows how ornamentation is done. The very heavy off-beat you get now among many session players (and even Donegal fiddlers have adopted this very recently) sounds like: ‘do WAH, do WAH’ the emphasised weak beat totally eclipses the down beat. Horrible!
# Posted on February 9th 2008 by dsndfkjasf
Re: From Classical to Trad
Johnny for listening; Mickey for dancing. Even amongst Donegal players there have been differences in rhythmic interpretations of lift, no?
# Posted on February 9th 2008 by dr_funkenstein
Re: From Classical to Trad
I do like John Doherty's playing. But I prefer Mickey Doherty's fiddle playing and overall style to John's. John played reels without much swing in the James Scott Skinner style which was influenced by Scottish military piping, and Mickey is supposed to have played more like their father Michael, in the old Rosses style. Vincent Campbell also said he thinks that Mickey Doherty was a better fiddler than John.
# Posted on February 9th 2008 by dsndfkjasf