Learning ITM @ University... and in other institutions
Learning ITM @ University... and in other institutions
It's now possible to study ITM @ University in Ireland. And America and England too for that matter.
I know well because Im a final year student of the B.A. in tradtional Irish music and dance at Limerick University. I play the flute and I've been known to sing a song or two in my time. I'm just starting me final semester and i must say... its been Brilliant. I've learnt loads and over the past 4 years, I've heard some cracking music.
Learning ITM here or in any instituation has its low points too, for example, it can get a little too techical sometimes, a little tedious. Music is meant to be played from the heart.
It can be easy to forget in a place like this.
Anyway, Im just starting my final year project -
The institutionalization of the Transmission of
Traditional Irish Music.
(sounds very academic does'nt it? ) Im sure there is something very worthwhile to be said here. And I'd like to know, What do you think?
P.S. Just in case any of you were wondering, ya can study Irish music at Boston College and Newcastle university too.
Re: Learning ITM @ University... and in other institutions
Many activities get institutionalised and standardised. Football and cricket in the c19, for example. It did them no harm, and gave these games a sound though flexible structure as well as a ritualistic mystique that I imagine was not there before, or was evanescent. We can't imagine them any other way, at a "grown-up" level that is, and I doubt if many would really like football to revert at top levels to the mass melee of traditional street football matches in some villages.
Church music was inst. / stand. by Pope Gregory in the c6. It was analysed exhaustively, and its modes understood, and eventually musical notation and beautiful polyphony resulted: rather a long time to wait, admittedly.
Jazz has surely been at least partly institutionalised for some time now, in the sense of being taught in academies that analyse, prescribe or proscribe various musical forms. Nearer home, the Highland Bagpipes have been institutionalised by the British Army for over two hundred years, which for all I know may have ensured their survival.Someone here may be well placed to make a comment on this aspect of Highland Bagpipe history and music.
Re: Learning ITM @ University... and in other institutions
Does this mean we're going to get league tables for sessions? What happens if you're playing away from home, do you get an extra point for an "away" set of tunes? What if it's cup tie and it's a draw? Does the session go into extra time? Do we then get gratuitous lock-ins? I think we'd see an inordinate amount of draws, then.
Actually, to be serious, roisinrua, have you read Marie McCarthy's Passing it on? http://styluspub.com/Books/BookDetail.aspx?productID=45639
Re: Learning ITM @ University... and in other institutions
There's a bit of a discussion on another site about the future (and present) of the Scottish Traditional Music Department at the RSAMD (Royal Scottish Academy of Music & Drama). See link below: http://www.footstompin.com/forum?threadid=106422
Re: Learning ITM @ University... and in other institutions
Isn't it possible to do ITM alongside a degree of a more academic subject?
Like me, for example...I love traditional music a lot...but I have applied to do a Law degree simply because I can still do traditional music as well as opposed to not doing an academic subject if I did a degree in traditional music!
Re: Learning ITM @ University... and in other institutions
Roisin- that's a topic with teeth you've got there, which should take you into many crucial areas. If you haven't already done so, maybe you could do a search in Discussions, using as keywords some of the institutions you undoubtedly already have in mind- you'll find plenty of good stuff 'en passant', which people won't necessarily respond with when faced with the direct question 'What do you think of X'- they can be an evasive lot on here
Incidentally, when you type in 'transmission', you'll find an interesting discussion on cars!
Good luck with your study- and if it turns out to be a bit deep and 'academic', so much the better- that's what universities are for!
Re: Learning ITM @ University... and in other institutions
The transmission of ITM was once upon a time a function of musical families passing tunes down thro generations and itinerant musicians spreading the tunes from village to village, these days it's a function of institutions such as www.thesession.org and Limerick University. It's an interesting change, good and bad points, but I doubt you'll get any views expressed about it here.
Re: Learning ITM @ University... and in other institutions
I wish there were more distance based opportunities at these universities. If there are and I'm missing something, please let me know. I did a "Celtic" Music study through the University of Wisconsin, but it was more of a certicate program. Still a good program for the novice, but I'd love to learn more.
Re: Learning ITM @ University... and in other institutions
Hi Roisin - Dave the mandolin player here, Andy's friend.
That's a heavy topic. I've got a few vague thoughts, but I can't find the vocabulary at the moment. I'll go and read a dictionary and I might come back to you. Good luck.
Re: Learning ITM @ University... and in other institutions
Studying ITM in college! that is so cool. I my self am considering going after a music degree, but all the schools I have looked at don't have anything but classical music.
I live in Arkansas, does anyone know if there are any schools closer than Boston that have courses like that?
Re: Learning ITM @ University... and in other institutions
This site must be as good as it gets when it comes to distance learning- there's such a wealth of stuff on here, no compulsion, no essays or deadlines- no diploma, obviously, but that'd be a plus for many, I imagine.
Re: Learning ITM @ University... and in other institutions
The value of learning any form of music through a college degree has two main factors
(i) The Quality of the Syllabus and Tutors
(ii) The attitude of the student
(i) In order for a music course to be worthwhile it must provide students with as much information and opportunity as possible for them to develop their own musical personality. I find that many syllabuses do the opposite to this and try to streamline a musical style by defining it through analysis and making students conform to this style to the detriment of their own development.
The only thing that can counter-act this is good tutors who know how to get their students through the exams whilst also helping them develop their own voice. A good tutor will deviate from or try to change a bad syllabus, unfortunately such people are rare and they normally come across huge resistance from administration because there's nothing administrators hate more than change. So if the syllabus and tutors are good then studying music in college can be worthwhile, whether this is the case in UL and other places is open for debate.
(ii) The student can make the best of a bad situation or the worst of a good one. When I studied for my initial music degree I found most of the students were content to just do what was required to get a good mark in the final exams. Some people were obsessed with getting a 1 as their final mark to the point that this seemed to be all they were interested in, so they just followed the programme and didn't question any of the information they were given.
My approach to school/college has always been to concentrate on the things that interest me and just do enough to pass the things that didn't, for this reason I've never been a straight A student, but I always did reasonably well and got very high marks on subjects I was interested in. However the marks/grades mean very little to me, I didn't do a music degree to get that bit of paper at the end. I did it to improve myself as a musician and at the end of it I can say that studying music in college has been a rewarding experience for me but only because I did it on my own terms and often went against the grain, questioned things and studied things that weren't on the syllabus.
This was mostly classical music I might add, my studies of traditional music have generally been outside of academia. I've found the aural learning I've encountered at festivals and directly from traditional musicians has been hugely beneficial to me, I'm not sure if this form of learning is used in trad courses, I presume it is, it generally isn't used in classical courses.
So the bottom line is formal music education can be helpful so long as the student is willing to question what they're told and not get caught up in the race to get the best grade and win all the competitions.
If you come out of college with a clear idea of who you are as a musician then it's been worthwhile. If you come out with high grades and great technique but you don't have your own voice then I'm afraid you've missed out on the most important part of learning music....how to express your own personality through it.
Re: Learning ITM @ University... and in other institutions
I would agree with a lot of frisbee's analysis, in particular the importance of self-motivated research outside the syllabus, the latter often being a fairly arbitrary reflection of faculty interests, whatever the subject.
The higher education process, whatever the subject, seems too often a rather futile game, where those who study (and obey/exploit) the 'rules' carefully, can 'win'- whether or not they have learnt anything of value- and then use the 'piece of paper' as a passport to a job they could probably have done equally well without it. Sadly, in my experience, that now seems to go with the territory- has done for decades, in fact.
However, I would have thought that, particularly in traditional music, one should be able to 'express one's own personality' pretty well without lending oneself to the exam-machine process at all. If you enjoy the music, play and find out about it for yourself- why subject yourself to *any* institutionalised process that strangles the fun out of it?
Maybe one day the wheel will come full circle, and education will once again return to being a matter of enthusiastic discussion at the feet of a master, tracing ideas with a stick (or a bow?) in the sand under a shady tree (in this target-driven world, I jest, obviously).
If you are thinking of doing a course, however, don't let these thoughts of an jaded old academic put you off. As frisbee says, accept the imperfections, dare to question, and make the 'process' your own. You may be lucky and find a tutor who understands all this too.
Re: Learning ITM @ University... and in other institutions
"education will once again return to being a matter of enthusiastic discussion at the feet of a master"
We have that in the UK (and possibly in other countries). It's called The University of the Third Age and works by groups of like-minded people meeting in each others' houses and being tutored by an expert in a chosen subject, the expert often being a retired academic who volunteers his/her time for the love of passing on the knowledge of the subject.
Everything is quite informal and without pressure since there are no exams, deadlines, diplomas and so-forth, and financially runs on a shoestring. Even so, the discussions and tutorials aren't at all trivial and will treat a topic in depth, often at degree level.
Re: Learning ITM @ University... and in other institutions
"The institutionalization of the Transmission of Traditional Irish Music"
This could easily refer to Comhaltas Ceoiltoiri Eireann, or the many teachers whosse aim is to tutor students to win competitions, because of their standardisation of playing and technique. If you confine your thesis to university transmission alone, surely you're limiting yourself to the relatively small number of people lucky enough to have exposure to music at that level. just a thought....
Re: Learning ITM @ University... and in other institutions
Hi,
I'm studying on the trad music degree up in Newcastle. Firstly, I reckon that's gonna be a really interesting read when you get it completed, I like the question.
It might be worthwhile looking into the nature of publishers and collectors of traditional material: Dave Harker's book 'Fakesong' is really good in its analysis of the collectors of traditional material if you can bear to hack your way through a text predominantly concerned with English song collectors. He sort of discusses how although the majority of the songs collected back in the Child era were from rural areas and peasant communities, it always seemed to be the middle & merchant classes that collected the songs. And goes onto talking about how people such as Ewan MacColl were trying to adapt traditional material to fit the political situation in England & institutionalise material into a political movement.
On the more nominal topic of the nature of courses like mine / ours, I've also go to agree with frisbee / Dave about the importance of questioning everything, but how unfortunately one of the problems with taking any subject into an institution like a university is that few lecturers want to actively encourage their pupils to question the content of their lectures. I think that's more a process of institutionalisation than a comment on the teaching staff at Newcastle who are, on the whole, excellent.
I think the problems that degrees such as mine suffer are twofold. Firstly, they do tend to result in a group of musicians who are more skilled than they would be if they'd been left to their own devices, and they tend to collect people of some musical talent. Secondly, the graduates who leave to pursue performance careers often leave with greater recourse to publicity and connections to people already in the field. The concern is invariably that these courses create a group of technically skilled musicians who can get lots of gigs, but who are distorting the tradition. As such, its very difficult to get a balance of a) ensuring the students are profoundly capable of understanding the nature of the tradition they're entering so they don't damage it, and b) being able to think for themselves, to not simply regurgitate the lecturers, and to have their own musical personality. To constantly challenge ourselves on both a technical and stylistic level, whilst being able to appreciate how these challenges relate to the tradition that created these opportunities is difficult. And to this end, I'd be interested in what people think - has this balance been achieved? Or are people weary & irritated by these courses and musicians because the balance hasn't been struck? Might be an idea not to mention names though...........
Re: Learning ITM @ University... and in other institutions
If people on the course have grown up in the tradition being studied, that's one thing. If, like I imagine most, they haven't, it might as well be a foreign country to them, and like a foreign country they can only expect to know it gradually and partially over a long time, if at all.
What they'll have now and in the near term is an idiomatic *musical* base, or language, which can be turned very nicely to other forms of European and North American music - and with it they'll pick-and-mix, playing Balkan or Scandinavian or pop or whatever with an Irish, etc., accent. Many of them might not want to immerse themselves in any tradition to any extent, but will want to experiment with, and be eclectic with, the music out of the technical skills they have - which I know are sometimes impressive.
The snag as I see it is that some who graduate and form bands, etc., might do beautiful arrangements of traditional material, but run very shy of feedback and criticism by traditional players and listeners, being afraid they might have their bubble burst or that the feedback will be inevitably derisory and hostile, or being disquieted by a secret suspicion that it's really the case that they need to play in sessions for decades before they qualify as real trad musos - and not wanting to do this. They'll want to make a name, etc., fairly fast, and package a sound and some numbers; the plus side is that they'll have what it takes to produce some really good and interesting music, the minus side is that they may end up trapped inside the package and its apparent security.
Re: Learning ITM @ University... and in other institutions
Roisin,
whatever replies you get girl, make sure your essay is pro-institutional overall, otherwise your marker will wonder what you're doing on a course like yours!!!
Remember rule number one, think with the examiners cap, not a rational, reasonable, normal person!
besta luck!
Lynne
Re: Learning ITM @ University... and in other institutions
Talk about food for thought....
I really appreciate it Lads. Thanks. Just a couple of hellos!!
Hello Dave!! nice to hear from you!
Haven’t seen you in a small ice age. Would love to hear your vague thoughts on the matter if ya ever find that dictionary!
And hello John, to answer your Q. I’m from Drumshanbo.
Might see you there at the next Joe Mooney!
In order that people may have a better understanding, let me describe how the B.A. in Irish music and dance works at Limerick University.
Each student chooses a first and second instrument (the second instrument can be learned as a complete beginner).
For your first instrument, you get one on one tuition an hour a week. Sometimes the same goes for your second instrument. If not, you’re taught as part of a small group.
Each student also learns, song, dance, music theory and piano every semester.
We also have electives to be studied for 1 semester. These have included, history of Irish music and dance, folklore, Irish, entrepreneurship, geography, classical music, history of Ireland and others.
We also do a co-op placement. Each student organises their own. This could be playing on a tour, working in an archive,
teaching music voluntarily... you get the idea.
A Eurasmus scheme is also in place. So you can go and study one semester in say, Cape Breton, New York, Glasgow, Stockholm, Helsinki and other places and get a feel for their music.
Also we get master classes for 3 or 4 times a semester with some of the living giants of the tradition.
Along with all this, there are lunchtime concerts nearly everyday where these giants give a concert for free!
You can imagine there is a lot of running around going on here at UL.
Naturally, the vast majority of traditional musicians are sound. And when your not run off your feet, its a nice place to be.
The workload can be heavy at times. And the university is such a hive of activity you have to take some time out too.
There is a definite air of professionalism, but there is also sometimes a distinct lack of organisation and it can be frustrating.
The students also have a tradional irish music society
Gan Ainm - which puts on Host of Events and activites Including "Campus Trad" a mini Irish music weekend festival hosted on campus.
on next weekend actually. Last Year Flook and Deaf Shepard played. Twas gReat craic. This year Pick of the Litter, Beoga and Buille are playing. Tickets are 20 euro for the whole weekend, 15th and 16th Feb. If your about, come on over!
And because there are so many musicians here, there are fine sessions to be had in Limerick City.
That’s about the size of it, I think.
You have to take the rough with the smooth.
I’m so use to it at this stage.
I wonder how does this environment sound to a regular traditional musician?
Learning ITM @ University... and in other institutions
Learning ITM @ University... and in other institutions
It's now possible to study ITM @ University in Ireland. And America and England too for that matter.
I know well because Im a final year student of the B.A. in tradtional Irish music and dance at Limerick University. I play the flute and I've been known to sing a song or two in my time. I'm just starting me final semester and i must say... its been Brilliant. I've learnt loads and over the past 4 years, I've heard some cracking music.
Learning ITM here or in any instituation has its low points too, for example, it can get a little too techical sometimes, a little tedious. Music is meant to be played from the heart.
It can be easy to forget in a place like this.
Anyway, Im just starting my final year project -
The institutionalization of the Transmission of
Traditional Irish Music.
(sounds very academic does'nt it? ) Im sure there is something very worthwhile to be said here. And I'd like to know, What do you think?
P.S. Just in case any of you were wondering, ya can study Irish music at Boston College and Newcastle university too.
# Posted on February 4th 2008 by roisinrua
Re: Learning ITM @ University... and in other institutions
Many activities get institutionalised and standardised. Football and cricket in the c19, for example. It did them no harm, and gave these games a sound though flexible structure as well as a ritualistic mystique that I imagine was not there before, or was evanescent. We can't imagine them any other way, at a "grown-up" level that is, and I doubt if many would really like football to revert at top levels to the mass melee of traditional street football matches in some villages.
Church music was inst. / stand. by Pope Gregory in the c6. It was analysed exhaustively, and its modes understood, and eventually musical notation and beautiful polyphony resulted: rather a long time to wait, admittedly.
Jazz has surely been at least partly institutionalised for some time now, in the sense of being taught in academies that analyse, prescribe or proscribe various musical forms. Nearer home, the Highland Bagpipes have been institutionalised by the British Army for over two hundred years, which for all I know may have ensured their survival.Someone here may be well placed to make a comment on this aspect of Highland Bagpipe history and music.
# Posted on February 4th 2008 by nicholas
Re: Learning ITM @ University... and in other institutions
I meant, the Highland Bagpipes have been institutionalised IN the British Army! - i.e., not by them, across the board...
# Posted on February 4th 2008 by nicholas
Re: Learning ITM @ University... and in other institutions
Well, if ever there was a group that needed to be institutionalized, its musicians who play this music....
# Posted on February 4th 2008 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: Learning ITM @ University... and in other institutions
Does this mean we're going to get league tables for sessions? What happens if you're playing away from home, do you get an extra point for an "away" set of tunes? What if it's cup tie and it's a draw? Does the session go into extra time? Do we then get gratuitous lock-ins? I think we'd see an inordinate amount of draws, then.
Actually, to be serious, roisinrua, have you read Marie McCarthy's Passing it on?
http://styluspub.com/Books/BookDetail.aspx?productID=45639
# Posted on February 4th 2008 by Rudall the time
Re: Learning ITM @ University... and in other institutions
There's a bit of a discussion on another site about the future (and present) of the Scottish Traditional Music Department at the RSAMD (Royal Scottish Academy of Music & Drama). See link below:
http://www.footstompin.com/forum?threadid=106422
# Posted on February 4th 2008 by SYcove
Re: Learning ITM @ University... and in other institutions
Isn't it possible to do ITM alongside a degree of a more academic subject?
Like me, for example...I love traditional music a lot...but I have applied to do a Law degree simply because I can still do traditional music as well as opposed to not doing an academic subject if I did a degree in traditional music!
# Posted on February 4th 2008 by I ♥ Dow
Re: Learning ITM @ University... and in other institutions
Roisin- that's a topic with teeth you've got there, which should take you into many crucial areas. If you haven't already done so, maybe you could do a search in Discussions, using as keywords some of the institutions you undoubtedly already have in mind- you'll find plenty of good stuff 'en passant', which people won't necessarily respond with when faced with the direct question 'What do you think of X'- they can be an evasive lot on here
Incidentally, when you type in 'transmission', you'll find an interesting discussion on cars!
Good luck with your study- and if it turns out to be a bit deep and 'academic', so much the better- that's what universities are for!
# Posted on February 4th 2008 by Here Lyeth
Re: Learning ITM @ University... and in other institutions
Hi Roisin. I'm doin the MA down there. Didn't realise there was anyone else from Leitrim knockin about the IWAMD. What part of Leitrim are you from?
# Posted on February 4th 2008 by John McCartin
Re: Learning ITM @ University... and in other institutions
The transmission of ITM was once upon a time a function of musical families passing tunes down thro generations and itinerant musicians spreading the tunes from village to village, these days it's a function of institutions such as www.thesession.org and Limerick University. It's an interesting change, good and bad points, but I doubt you'll get any views expressed about it here.
# Posted on February 5th 2008 by Mike Floorstand
Re: Learning ITM @ University... and in other institutions
The history of Comhaltas must be of relevance to any overall study of the institutionalisation of Irish traditional music, come to think of it.
# Posted on February 5th 2008 by nicholas
Re: Learning ITM @ University... and in other institutions
Great and interesting topic - good luck!
# Posted on February 5th 2008 by Mark Harmer
Re: Learning ITM @ University... and in other institutions
I wish there were more distance based opportunities at these universities. If there are and I'm missing something, please let me know. I did a "Celtic" Music study through the University of Wisconsin, but it was more of a certicate program. Still a good program for the novice, but I'd love to learn more.
# Posted on February 5th 2008 by nofrets
Re: Learning ITM @ University... and in other institutions
Hi Roisin - Dave the mandolin player here, Andy's friend.
That's a heavy topic. I've got a few vague thoughts, but I can't find the vocabulary at the moment. I'll go and read a dictionary and I might come back to you. Good luck.
# Posted on February 5th 2008 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: Learning ITM @ University... and in other institutions
Studying ITM in college! that is so cool. I my self am considering going after a music degree, but all the schools I have looked at don't have anything but classical music.
I live in Arkansas, does anyone know if there are any schools closer than Boston that have courses like that?
# Posted on February 5th 2008 by Nopstavon
Re: Learning ITM @ University... and in other institutions
This site must be as good as it gets when it comes to distance learning- there's such a wealth of stuff on here, no compulsion, no essays or deadlines- no diploma, obviously, but that'd be a plus for many, I imagine.
# Posted on February 5th 2008 by Here Lyeth
Re: Learning ITM @ University... and in other institutions
The value of learning any form of music through a college degree has two main factors
(i) The Quality of the Syllabus and Tutors
(ii) The attitude of the student
(i) In order for a music course to be worthwhile it must provide students with as much information and opportunity as possible for them to develop their own musical personality. I find that many syllabuses do the opposite to this and try to streamline a musical style by defining it through analysis and making students conform to this style to the detriment of their own development.
The only thing that can counter-act this is good tutors who know how to get their students through the exams whilst also helping them develop their own voice. A good tutor will deviate from or try to change a bad syllabus, unfortunately such people are rare and they normally come across huge resistance from administration because there's nothing administrators hate more than change. So if the syllabus and tutors are good then studying music in college can be worthwhile, whether this is the case in UL and other places is open for debate.
(ii) The student can make the best of a bad situation or the worst of a good one. When I studied for my initial music degree I found most of the students were content to just do what was required to get a good mark in the final exams. Some people were obsessed with getting a 1 as their final mark to the point that this seemed to be all they were interested in, so they just followed the programme and didn't question any of the information they were given.
My approach to school/college has always been to concentrate on the things that interest me and just do enough to pass the things that didn't, for this reason I've never been a straight A student, but I always did reasonably well and got very high marks on subjects I was interested in. However the marks/grades mean very little to me, I didn't do a music degree to get that bit of paper at the end. I did it to improve myself as a musician and at the end of it I can say that studying music in college has been a rewarding experience for me but only because I did it on my own terms and often went against the grain, questioned things and studied things that weren't on the syllabus.
This was mostly classical music I might add, my studies of traditional music have generally been outside of academia. I've found the aural learning I've encountered at festivals and directly from traditional musicians has been hugely beneficial to me, I'm not sure if this form of learning is used in trad courses, I presume it is, it generally isn't used in classical courses.
So the bottom line is formal music education can be helpful so long as the student is willing to question what they're told and not get caught up in the race to get the best grade and win all the competitions.
If you come out of college with a clear idea of who you are as a musician then it's been worthwhile. If you come out with high grades and great technique but you don't have your own voice then I'm afraid you've missed out on the most important part of learning music....how to express your own personality through it.
# Posted on February 5th 2008 by The Tune Composer
Re: Learning ITM @ University... and in other institutions
I would agree with a lot of frisbee's analysis, in particular the importance of self-motivated research outside the syllabus, the latter often being a fairly arbitrary reflection of faculty interests, whatever the subject.
The higher education process, whatever the subject, seems too often a rather futile game, where those who study (and obey/exploit) the 'rules' carefully, can 'win'- whether or not they have learnt anything of value- and then use the 'piece of paper' as a passport to a job they could probably have done equally well without it. Sadly, in my experience, that now seems to go with the territory- has done for decades, in fact.
However, I would have thought that, particularly in traditional music, one should be able to 'express one's own personality' pretty well without lending oneself to the exam-machine process at all. If you enjoy the music, play and find out about it for yourself- why subject yourself to *any* institutionalised process that strangles the fun out of it?
Maybe one day the wheel will come full circle, and education will once again return to being a matter of enthusiastic discussion at the feet of a master, tracing ideas with a stick (or a bow?) in the sand under a shady tree (in this target-driven world, I jest, obviously).
If you are thinking of doing a course, however, don't let these thoughts of an jaded old academic put you off. As frisbee says, accept the imperfections, dare to question, and make the 'process' your own. You may be lucky and find a tutor who understands all this too.
Good luck in your quest!
# Posted on February 5th 2008 by Here Lyeth
Re: Learning ITM @ University... and in other institutions
"education will once again return to being a matter of enthusiastic discussion at the feet of a master"
We have that in the UK (and possibly in other countries). It's called The University of the Third Age and works by groups of like-minded people meeting in each others' houses and being tutored by an expert in a chosen subject, the expert often being a retired academic who volunteers his/her time for the love of passing on the knowledge of the subject.
Everything is quite informal and without pressure since there are no exams, deadlines, diplomas and so-forth, and financially runs on a shoestring. Even so, the discussions and tutorials aren't at all trivial and will treat a topic in depth, often at degree level.
# Posted on February 5th 2008 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Learning ITM @ University... and in other institutions
"The institutionalization of the Transmission of Traditional Irish Music"
This could easily refer to Comhaltas Ceoiltoiri Eireann, or the many teachers whosse aim is to tutor students to win competitions, because of their standardisation of playing and technique. If you confine your thesis to university transmission alone, surely you're limiting yourself to the relatively small number of people lucky enough to have exposure to music at that level. just a thought....
# Posted on February 5th 2008 by Backer
Re: Learning ITM @ University... and in other institutions
Hi,
I'm studying on the trad music degree up in Newcastle. Firstly, I reckon that's gonna be a really interesting read when you get it completed, I like the question.
It might be worthwhile looking into the nature of publishers and collectors of traditional material: Dave Harker's book 'Fakesong' is really good in its analysis of the collectors of traditional material if you can bear to hack your way through a text predominantly concerned with English song collectors. He sort of discusses how although the majority of the songs collected back in the Child era were from rural areas and peasant communities, it always seemed to be the middle & merchant classes that collected the songs. And goes onto talking about how people such as Ewan MacColl were trying to adapt traditional material to fit the political situation in England & institutionalise material into a political movement.
On the more nominal topic of the nature of courses like mine / ours, I've also go to agree with frisbee / Dave about the importance of questioning everything, but how unfortunately one of the problems with taking any subject into an institution like a university is that few lecturers want to actively encourage their pupils to question the content of their lectures. I think that's more a process of institutionalisation than a comment on the teaching staff at Newcastle who are, on the whole, excellent.
I think the problems that degrees such as mine suffer are twofold. Firstly, they do tend to result in a group of musicians who are more skilled than they would be if they'd been left to their own devices, and they tend to collect people of some musical talent. Secondly, the graduates who leave to pursue performance careers often leave with greater recourse to publicity and connections to people already in the field. The concern is invariably that these courses create a group of technically skilled musicians who can get lots of gigs, but who are distorting the tradition. As such, its very difficult to get a balance of a) ensuring the students are profoundly capable of understanding the nature of the tradition they're entering so they don't damage it, and b) being able to think for themselves, to not simply regurgitate the lecturers, and to have their own musical personality. To constantly challenge ourselves on both a technical and stylistic level, whilst being able to appreciate how these challenges relate to the tradition that created these opportunities is difficult. And to this end, I'd be interested in what people think - has this balance been achieved? Or are people weary & irritated by these courses and musicians because the balance hasn't been struck? Might be an idea not to mention names though...........
Andy
# Posted on February 6th 2008 by Andy V
Re: Learning ITM @ University... and in other institutions
If people on the course have grown up in the tradition being studied, that's one thing. If, like I imagine most, they haven't, it might as well be a foreign country to them, and like a foreign country they can only expect to know it gradually and partially over a long time, if at all.
What they'll have now and in the near term is an idiomatic *musical* base, or language, which can be turned very nicely to other forms of European and North American music - and with it they'll pick-and-mix, playing Balkan or Scandinavian or pop or whatever with an Irish, etc., accent. Many of them might not want to immerse themselves in any tradition to any extent, but will want to experiment with, and be eclectic with, the music out of the technical skills they have - which I know are sometimes impressive.
The snag as I see it is that some who graduate and form bands, etc., might do beautiful arrangements of traditional material, but run very shy of feedback and criticism by traditional players and listeners, being afraid they might have their bubble burst or that the feedback will be inevitably derisory and hostile, or being disquieted by a secret suspicion that it's really the case that they need to play in sessions for decades before they qualify as real trad musos - and not wanting to do this. They'll want to make a name, etc., fairly fast, and package a sound and some numbers; the plus side is that they'll have what it takes to produce some really good and interesting music, the minus side is that they may end up trapped inside the package and its apparent security.
But good luck to them.
HOORAY FOR HOGWARTS !!!
# Posted on February 6th 2008 by nicholas
Re: Learning ITM @ University... and in other institutions
Roisin,
whatever replies you get girl, make sure your essay is pro-institutional overall, otherwise your marker will wonder what you're doing on a course like yours!!!
Remember rule number one, think with the examiners cap, not a rational, reasonable, normal person!
besta luck!
Lynne
# Posted on February 7th 2008 by violynne
Re: Learning ITM @ University... and in other institutions
Talk about food for thought....
I really appreciate it Lads. Thanks. Just a couple of hellos!!
Hello Dave!! nice to hear from you!
Haven’t seen you in a small ice age. Would love to hear your vague thoughts on the matter if ya ever find that dictionary!
And hello John, to answer your Q. I’m from Drumshanbo.
Might see you there at the next Joe Mooney!
In order that people may have a better understanding, let me describe how the B.A. in Irish music and dance works at Limerick University.
Each student chooses a first and second instrument (the second instrument can be learned as a complete beginner).
For your first instrument, you get one on one tuition an hour a week. Sometimes the same goes for your second instrument. If not, you’re taught as part of a small group.
Each student also learns, song, dance, music theory and piano every semester.
We also have electives to be studied for 1 semester. These have included, history of Irish music and dance, folklore, Irish, entrepreneurship, geography, classical music, history of Ireland and others.
We also do a co-op placement. Each student organises their own. This could be playing on a tour, working in an archive,
teaching music voluntarily... you get the idea.
A Eurasmus scheme is also in place. So you can go and study one semester in say, Cape Breton, New York, Glasgow, Stockholm, Helsinki and other places and get a feel for their music.
Also we get master classes for 3 or 4 times a semester with some of the living giants of the tradition.
Along with all this, there are lunchtime concerts nearly everyday where these giants give a concert for free!
You can imagine there is a lot of running around going on here at UL.
Naturally, the vast majority of traditional musicians are sound. And when your not run off your feet, its a nice place to be.
The workload can be heavy at times. And the university is such a hive of activity you have to take some time out too.
There is a definite air of professionalism, but there is also sometimes a distinct lack of organisation and it can be frustrating.
The students also have a tradional irish music society
Gan Ainm - which puts on Host of Events and activites Including "Campus Trad" a mini Irish music weekend festival hosted on campus.
on next weekend actually. Last Year Flook and Deaf Shepard played. Twas gReat craic. This year Pick of the Litter, Beoga and Buille are playing. Tickets are 20 euro for the whole weekend, 15th and 16th Feb. If your about, come on over!
And because there are so many musicians here, there are fine sessions to be had in Limerick City.
That’s about the size of it, I think.
You have to take the rough with the smooth.
I’m so use to it at this stage.
I wonder how does this environment sound to a regular traditional musician?
# Posted on February 7th 2008 by roisinrua