So I've been sitting down with my various instruments and a metronome recently. I normally just use a bodhran or bones player to keep me in time but that's not always possible. I've been playing for set and céilí dances recently and the dancers have no musical experience so they are having a difficult time explaining exactly what they want. I was wondering if there were specific metronome speeds that coincided with specific styles of tunes. Also any advice on playing for set and céilí would be appreciated. Cheers
If you look at my profile you'll see links to my Youtube videos of a number of sets being danced in the Square in Kilrush a few years ago. The audio/video quality isn't all that marvellous, but you'll get an idea of what honest-to-God live set dancing for fun is like.
I'd forget about metronomes and drums if I were you.
Cheers mickray, I know it's a horrid idea to be dependent on a drum, that's why I'm taking the time to become a better player. I did take up dancing a couple years ago, that's the only reason I can play for them at all. My major problem is that I'm either going too fast or too slow for them. Any points of reference to aim for when working on timing would be great. Thanks for the links, that's exactly the type of thing I was looking for!
No drum, no bones, no metronome. You've already scooped up two good lots of advice. Quit while you can and never mention drums and bones again! They cannot be played!
Dancers don't dance the exact same speeds everywhere. Listen a lot to ceili band recordings and the internet of course, but when I play for dancers, I always expect to be at their whim for tempo (and there's a thriving dance community in my town, so I'm never short opportunities).
Speed isn't as important as rhythm. Play reels with energy and, most importantly, good rhythm. Play jigs at a good clip, but not too fast, and again -- rhythm. Polkas need to go at a fairly good clip so they don't feel like a march, but hornpipes should be at a nice march-shuffle sort of tempo. Slides are tricky because they shouldn't be played like jigs -- or even fast jigs. Slides have their own attitude and watching the videos would provide some good clues I'm sure. Waltzes will want to go a little faster than you might play them to listen to. Playing for experienced dancers is good education and you should try to find some and let them help you.
All though they're closely related, playing for dancing and playing for listening are two different things.
I learned an interesting thing about playing for dancers last summer--if you're playing outdoors, consider the surface the dancers are on. You might need to slow down a bit, because dancers can move faster on a smooth floor than they can on an uneven surface.
I disagree with the advice not to use a metronome. I use it a lot in my teaching. (I am prepared for the onslaught which will surely follow.)
I don't dance; instead, I lead middle school kids in all kinds of music. They depend on me for the starting tempo. If I start too fast, they will break down. If I start too slow, it will have no life and only drag slower.
In the heat of the moment, it is easy to set a tempo way too fast to be practical. I use the metronome switched for the lighted beat, rather than the sounding beat, and after a few beats to establish the tempo in my mind, I shut it off, then start the group.
"I was wondering if there were specific metronome speeds that coincided with specific styles of tunes. Also any advice on playing for set and céilí would be appreciated."
If there are already established musicians that play for sets or ceili in your area, I'd ask them about recommended/preferred tempos of the dance community. A lot will depend on the dancers' experience and preference.
As far as sets are concerned, keep in mind that a good tempo for a certain tune type in a particular set won't be a good tempo for that same tune type in another set. For example, playing a polka for the Williamstown at the same tempo as you'd play for Sliabh Luachra will be *hard* on the dancers (it'll likely be too fast). Keep your eyes open--if the dancers look like they can't keep up, you're probably playing too fast.
It seems counter-intuitive, but champion dancers dance hornpipes and heavy jigs at slower speeds. This is because the steps are much more complicated. The slower speed also makes the dances longer. For open or champion dancers:
Hornpipes - 113 bpm
Heavy Jigs - 73 bpm
Use these speeds and any dancer engaged in competiton will be able to dance to your tunes.
Fortunetly many of us dance for fun as opposed to competitionsand with consenting adults as opposed to by yourself . So the speeds given above thank goodness are not relevent.
Many years ago I had the pleasure of being taught by the great Joe O'Donovan and I asked him how fast he wanted a tune and he replied its not about speed its about timing
As an aside, I learned a lot when I first started playing by joining in with an established dance band. They were happy to have a harp and I found it a great way of experimenting with different ideas while keeping within what everyone was doing - and there are usually enough repetitions to "get" the tune!! Generally dancers aren't listening that critically so you can get away with more than you can in (say) sessions.
''Excuse my ignorance but what's the difference between a Heavy Jig, Light Jig and Treble Jig??!!''
It's to do with the style of dance, rather than the tune, light jigs are danced in soft shoes, heavy jigs are danced in hard shoes and need to go slower because of the more elaborate stepping.
You can alway s try the David Kanor (sp?) device of walking or, if you can dancing, while playing. If you find you are jogging, you are to fast, if you have to think about your feet, it may be to slow. A fair amble works for lots of tunes and dances. In any event, it keeps you steady.
Thanks Cathy, so when you see the sean nos type tap dancing on TG4, that does be Heavy Jigs or Heavy Reels? BTW, always impressed by Johnny Connolly when he plays for those - a few whispers in his ear by the oncoming dancer, a nod of the head and off he goes!
Cathy's description is correct. While there is no rule, double or treble jigs generally refer to traditional speed hard shoe jigs. Heavy jigs usually refer to the slower jigs used for the more elaborate open or champion steps. The terms are often used interchangeably.
Tipping reels, or hard shoe reels are not part of regular competition at a feis. They are usually done for fun or to raise money for charities at the end of regular competitions in events called specials. The results do not count twoard a dancer advancing. Speeds are 113.
Reels at 113 will usually be comfortable for most group dances.
Timing and dancing
Timing and dancing
So I've been sitting down with my various instruments and a metronome recently. I normally just use a bodhran or bones player to keep me in time but that's not always possible. I've been playing for set and céilí dances recently and the dancers have no musical experience so they are having a difficult time explaining exactly what they want. I was wondering if there were specific metronome speeds that coincided with specific styles of tunes. Also any advice on playing for set and céilí would be appreciated. Cheers
# Posted on February 4th 2008 by Aodh Rúadh
Re: Timing and dancing
Oh god, I hope you have a thick skin.
# Posted on February 4th 2008 by Dr. Dow
Re: Timing and dancing
haha, cheers for the concern Dow. I know I'll catch a bit of sh*te from this naive post but if i learn a bit it'll be worth it, eh?
# Posted on February 4th 2008 by Aodh Rúadh
Re: Timing and dancing
All right, I will belabor the obvious.
You should not need a drum to help you keep time.
Many people say the best way to learn how to play for dancers is to learn how to dance, yourself.
Otherwise, you might do some research YouTube. Here are a few links to get you started:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OacB9CywjmE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tLjU4qlBEcU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NhQMjIlCAsQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S-Z5iWYeXf8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mmkaWZ9ieGU
# Posted on February 4th 2008 by John Galt
Re: Timing and dancing
If you look at my profile you'll see links to my Youtube videos of a number of sets being danced in the Square in Kilrush a few years ago. The audio/video quality isn't all that marvellous, but you'll get an idea of what honest-to-God live set dancing for fun is like.
I'd forget about metronomes and drums if I were you.
# Posted on February 4th 2008 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Timing and dancing
Cheers mickray, I know it's a horrid idea to be dependent on a drum, that's why I'm taking the time to become a better player. I did take up dancing a couple years ago, that's the only reason I can play for them at all. My major problem is that I'm either going too fast or too slow for them. Any points of reference to aim for when working on timing would be great. Thanks for the links, that's exactly the type of thing I was looking for!
# Posted on February 4th 2008 by Aodh Rúadh
Re: Timing and dancing
No drum, no bones, no metronome. You've already scooped up two good lots of advice. Quit while you can and never mention drums and bones again! They cannot be played!
# Posted on February 4th 2008 by Steve Shaw
Re: Timing and dancing
For the record, I didn't say "No drums or bones... ever!"--just that any musician should be able to keep time on his or her own.
# Posted on February 4th 2008 by John Galt
Re: Timing and dancing
Dancers don't dance the exact same speeds everywhere. Listen a lot to ceili band recordings and the internet of course, but when I play for dancers, I always expect to be at their whim for tempo (and there's a thriving dance community in my town, so I'm never short opportunities).
# Posted on February 4th 2008 by reenactor
Re: Timing and dancing
Speed isn't as important as rhythm. Play reels with energy and, most importantly, good rhythm. Play jigs at a good clip, but not too fast, and again -- rhythm. Polkas need to go at a fairly good clip so they don't feel like a march, but hornpipes should be at a nice march-shuffle sort of tempo. Slides are tricky because they shouldn't be played like jigs -- or even fast jigs. Slides have their own attitude and watching the videos would provide some good clues I'm sure. Waltzes will want to go a little faster than you might play them to listen to. Playing for experienced dancers is good education and you should try to find some and let them help you.
All though they're closely related, playing for dancing and playing for listening are two different things.
Good luck and have fun.
# Posted on February 4th 2008 by Phantom Button
Re: Timing and dancing
I learned an interesting thing about playing for dancers last summer--if you're playing outdoors, consider the surface the dancers are on. You might need to slow down a bit, because dancers can move faster on a smooth floor than they can on an uneven surface.
# Posted on February 4th 2008 by John Galt
Re: Timing and dancing
I disagree with the advice not to use a metronome. I use it a lot in my teaching. (I am prepared for the onslaught which will surely follow.)
I don't dance; instead, I lead middle school kids in all kinds of music. They depend on me for the starting tempo. If I start too fast, they will break down. If I start too slow, it will have no life and only drag slower.
In the heat of the moment, it is easy to set a tempo way too fast to be practical. I use the metronome switched for the lighted beat, rather than the sounding beat, and after a few beats to establish the tempo in my mind, I shut it off, then start the group.
# Posted on February 4th 2008 by Greg the Piano Tuner
Re: Timing and dancing
"I was wondering if there were specific metronome speeds that coincided with specific styles of tunes. Also any advice on playing for set and céilí would be appreciated."
If there are already established musicians that play for sets or ceili in your area, I'd ask them about recommended/preferred tempos of the dance community. A lot will depend on the dancers' experience and preference.
As far as sets are concerned, keep in mind that a good tempo for a certain tune type in a particular set won't be a good tempo for that same tune type in another set. For example, playing a polka for the Williamstown at the same tempo as you'd play for Sliabh Luachra will be *hard* on the dancers (it'll likely be too fast). Keep your eyes open--if the dancers look like they can't keep up, you're probably playing too fast.
# Posted on February 4th 2008 by dr_funkenstein
Re: Timing and dancing
I am a dancer. Competition speeds are as follows:
Reels - 113 bpm
Light Jigs - 113 bpm
Traditional Hornpipes - 138 bpm
Traditional Treble Jigs -86 bpm
Slip Jigs - 113 bpm
It seems counter-intuitive, but champion dancers dance hornpipes and heavy jigs at slower speeds. This is because the steps are much more complicated. The slower speed also makes the dances longer. For open or champion dancers:
Hornpipes - 113 bpm
Heavy Jigs - 73 bpm
Use these speeds and any dancer engaged in competiton will be able to dance to your tunes.
I hope this helps.
M
# Posted on February 4th 2008 by mpottinger
Re: Timing and dancing
Fortunetly many of us dance for fun as opposed to competitionsand with consenting adults as opposed to by yourself . So the speeds given above thank goodness are not relevent.
Many years ago I had the pleasure of being taught by the great Joe O'Donovan and I asked him how fast he wanted a tune and he replied its not about speed its about timing
# Posted on February 4th 2008 by bazouki dave
Re: Timing and dancing
As an aside, I learned a lot when I first started playing by joining in with an established dance band. They were happy to have a harp and I found it a great way of experimenting with different ideas while keeping within what everyone was doing - and there are usually enough repetitions to "get" the tune!! Generally dancers aren't listening that critically so you can get away with more than you can in (say) sessions.
# Posted on February 4th 2008 by Mark Harmer
Re: Timing and dancing
Excuse my ignorance but what's the difference between a Heavy Jig, Light Jig and Treble Jig??!!
# Posted on February 4th 2008 by the wounded hussar
Re: Timing and dancing
I mean, we know about Double Jigs and Single Jigs, I think.. but for me at any rate - a jig's a jig - most are great tunes but some are twee.
# Posted on February 4th 2008 by the wounded hussar
Re: Timing and dancing
I hope I never have to play for a fesh. (sp?)
# Posted on February 4th 2008 by Phantom Button
Re: Timing and dancing
''Excuse my ignorance but what's the difference between a Heavy Jig, Light Jig and Treble Jig??!!''
It's to do with the style of dance, rather than the tune, light jigs are danced in soft shoes, heavy jigs are danced in hard shoes and need to go slower because of the more elaborate stepping.
# Posted on February 4th 2008 by cathycook
Re: Timing and dancing
You can alway s try the David Kanor (sp?) device of walking or, if you can dancing, while playing. If you find you are jogging, you are to fast, if you have to think about your feet, it may be to slow. A fair amble works for lots of tunes and dances. In any event, it keeps you steady.
# Posted on February 4th 2008 by toumi
Re: Timing and dancing
Thanks Cathy, so when you see the sean nos type tap dancing on TG4, that does be Heavy Jigs or Heavy Reels? BTW, always impressed by Johnny Connolly when he plays for those - a few whispers in his ear by the oncoming dancer, a nod of the head and off he goes!
# Posted on February 4th 2008 by the wounded hussar
Re: Timing and dancing
I think the sean nos dancing you're talking about is usually done to reels, I'm a fan of Johnny Connolly too, excellent player.
# Posted on February 4th 2008 by cathycook
Re: Timing and dancing
Cathy's description is correct. While there is no rule, double or treble jigs generally refer to traditional speed hard shoe jigs. Heavy jigs usually refer to the slower jigs used for the more elaborate open or champion steps. The terms are often used interchangeably.
Tipping reels, or hard shoe reels are not part of regular competition at a feis. They are usually done for fun or to raise money for charities at the end of regular competitions in events called specials. The results do not count twoard a dancer advancing. Speeds are 113.
Reels at 113 will usually be comfortable for most group dances.
# Posted on February 5th 2008 by mpottinger