There are some recordings also on site here, but if you go to Dow's page and click on the 3/2 tunes you'll find links. Some of these recordings will feature fragments of MP3 to listen to Online...
Hi
My old band mate , Pete Stewart of Hornpipe Music in Pencaitland Scotland, has recently put out a great book "3 Extraordinary Collections" of rare collections of hornpipes They are the only copies preserved from early 18th C. Pete is a fiddler and plays Old style pipes with the Goodacres.
www.hornpipemusic.co.uk
A facinating genre and an interesting transition to 4/4 time whichcame in later.
See also Crookfinger Jack a record from NW England . Harbourtown CD I think
Cheers
Mike Wild in Sheffield
The only problem is, I find it really difficult to extract the music for 3/2s from the dots, so there's a lot of work ahead of me!.
I think there are two reasons for this - frirst, 3/2 are much more varied in their structure - if you think of a jig, most bars with consist of some combination of dotted crochet, three quavers or crochet and quaver. 3/2s vary much more in their 'feel' - wish I could be more precise in words! If you could all nip round to my house we could have a play and I'd be able to show you what I mean!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The other reason is, as far as I know no-one knows what the dances were like. I've done Irish set and step dancing, English ceilidh and longsword, so I've danced to reels, 4/4 hornpipes, polkas, jigs, slip jigs etc etc etc. I know what the tunes are supposed to feel like! And I know why they need to feel like that. With 3/2, I don't.
Still, the tunes are great, the titles are amazing and when I've worked through both books I'll be really good at 3/2s.
I guess to some degree "the whole point" of 3:2's is that you can chop up a bar so many different ways, so there are loads of opportunities for pulling the beat this way and that against the basic three beat walk.
It may not be ITM but was it Irish traditional music up to about 1740/1750? The ones I know are mostly northern English, but what research has been done on Irish MSS or pre-1750 printed sources? We share reels, 4/4 hornpipes, jigs, polkas,waltzes, schottisches, etc etc - why not 3/2 hornpipes?
Fair point indeed, cg, though 3:2's are still in the current English tradition, but not the Irish.
Not wishing to be picky, I think polkas, schottisches and waltzes all appeared after 1750, but I take the overall point about what may have been in the earlier Irish tradition.
Are there many Irish tune MSS from the c17-18? Or the nineteenth century, for that matter? I thought there was a great dearth of these compared to what exists in mainland Britain.
I know there are 3/2 tunes in a 1718 copy of Playford in my family, though I do not know the speed at which they would have been played then, or anything about how they were danced. Playford catered for a quite stylish, metropolitan market, as far as I can see - probably some way removed from the clientele of some of the 3/2s danced in the sticks of the North, or wherever.
I'm not sure 3/2s stayed in the English tradition - I don't remember any in the 19th C MS tune books I've transcribed (will have to check!). My impression is that they have come back into favour over the last 40 years or so, having been totally superceded by the 4/4 hornpipe after about 1750.
3/2 was certainly a popular time signature with church bands and quires, but again I'm not sure whether its popularity continued until the suppression of that type of music in the 1850's or whether it was largely earlier.
I see the Northumbrian Pipers Tunebook, published in 1936 includes "Lads of Alnwick" for one, so they were about then, but I'd be interested to hear if you find out whether 3:2s stayed current through the C19.
The Northumbrian Pipers' Tune Book Second Edition, published in 1970, published The Lads Of Alnwick as a 3/4, and I imagine a number of players up in the NE are used to seeing it as such.
Could prove cg's point! (Almost) 40 years ago had people forgotten that 3:2 existed?!
Perhaps I'm all wrong, maybe up there Lads of Alnwick is played as a waltz. (I'd like the evidence though!)
3/2 Hornpipes
3/2 Hornpipes
John Offord's book of 3/2 hornpipes, John Of The Green The Cheshire Way, has been re-written and re-published http://www.johnofthegreen.co.uk
I know from the discussions there are a few enthusiasts out there!
# Posted on February 3rd 2008 by c.g.
Re: 3/2 Hornpipes
Are there any examples of a 3/2 hornpipe on the web that I could listen to. The time signature intrigues me.
# Posted on February 3rd 2008 by Free Reed
Re: 3/2 Hornpipes
I'll have a look tomorrow - I'm fairly certain there are some.
They came before 4/4 hornpipes, and lasted till the late 18th century. The ones I know are really amazing tunes and well worth looking at.
# Posted on February 3rd 2008 by c.g.
Re: 3/2 Hornpipes
Dow / Mark's contributions ~
http://www.thesession.org/members/display/4763
There are some recordings also on site here, but if you go to Dow's page and click on the 3/2 tunes you'll find links. Some of these recordings will feature fragments of MP3 to listen to Online...
# Posted on February 3rd 2008 by ceolachan
Re: 3/2 Hornpipes
Free Reed -
Dance Ti Thy Daddy is one in the Tunes section here.
So is Cam Ye O'er Frae France, which has many other takes on the tune in the Comments below. It's a variable one but a strong tune overall.
They should give you an idea of the rhythm.
# Posted on February 3rd 2008 by nicholas
Re: 3/2 Hornpipes ~ a few recordings
"The Northumbrian Small Pipes" Various Artists
http://www.thesession.org/recordings/display/1400
"English Fiddle Tunes" ~ Pete Cooper, collection & accompanying CD
http://www.thesession.org/recordings/display/2521
"High Level Ranters: Northumberland Forever"
http://www.thesession.org/recordings/display/2438
"Nancy Kerr & James Fagan: Starry Gazy Pie"
http://www.thesession.org/recordings/display/2565
"Kathryn Tickell: The Gathering"
http://www.thesession.org/recordings/display/2625
# Posted on February 3rd 2008 by ceolachan
Re: 3/2 Hornpipes ~ the tunes, including nicholas's recommendations
"All The Night I Lay With Jockey"
http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/4124
"The Broken-legged Chicken"
http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/6878
"Cam Ye O'er Frae France" / "The Key To The Cellar"
http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/8145
"Dance To Your Daddy"
http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/7365
"Dog Leap Stairs" C: Alistair Anderson
http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/1240
"Go To Berwick, Johnny"
http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/1211
"The Lads Of Alnwick"
http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/1194
"Lang Stayed Away"
http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/3024
"Little Fishie"
http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/1259
"The Rusty Gulley"
http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/1208
"The Sunderland Lasses"
http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/2796
"The Sunderland Hornpipe"
http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/4135
"Wideopen Lasses" C: Chris Ormston
http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/4227
# Posted on February 3rd 2008 by ceolachan
Re: 3/2 Hornpipes
Well I'll be.......thanks for that everyone. Now I know how Dave Brubeck got the idea for 'Take Five....
# Posted on February 3rd 2008 by Free Reed
Re: 3/2 Hornpipes
Free Reed, Paul Desmond wrote 'Take Five', not Brubeck!
# Posted on February 3rd 2008 by Floss the Tethers
Re: 3/2 Hornpipes
I see 'If you will not have me, you may let me go' is in the Tunes section here.
Try that for a real 'Take 5' feel.
# Posted on February 4th 2008 by c.g.
Re: 3/2 Hornpipes
Hi
My old band mate , Pete Stewart of Hornpipe Music in Pencaitland Scotland, has recently put out a great book "3 Extraordinary Collections" of rare collections of hornpipes They are the only copies preserved from early 18th C. Pete is a fiddler and plays Old style pipes with the Goodacres.
www.hornpipemusic.co.uk
A facinating genre and an interesting transition to 4/4 time whichcame in later.
See also Crookfinger Jack a record from NW England . Harbourtown CD I think
Cheers
Mike Wild in Sheffield
# Posted on February 4th 2008 by Michael Sam Wild
Re: 3/2 Hornpipes
Yep. Got that one as well.
The only problem is, I find it really difficult to extract the music for 3/2s from the dots, so there's a lot of work ahead of me!.
I think there are two reasons for this - frirst, 3/2 are much more varied in their structure - if you think of a jig, most bars with consist of some combination of dotted crochet, three quavers or crochet and quaver. 3/2s vary much more in their 'feel' - wish I could be more precise in words! If you could all nip round to my house we could have a play and I'd be able to show you what I mean!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The other reason is, as far as I know no-one knows what the dances were like. I've done Irish set and step dancing, English ceilidh and longsword, so I've danced to reels, 4/4 hornpipes, polkas, jigs, slip jigs etc etc etc. I know what the tunes are supposed to feel like! And I know why they need to feel like that. With 3/2, I don't.
Still, the tunes are great, the titles are amazing and when I've worked through both books I'll be really good at 3/2s.
# Posted on February 4th 2008 by c.g.
Re: 3/2 Hornpipes
http://www.hornpipemusic.co.uk/
# Posted on February 4th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: 3/2 Hornpipes
The Playford types "dance" to them quite a lot I think. Mostly at a walk.....
# Posted on February 4th 2008 by TomB-R
Re: 3/2 Hornpipes
I guess to some degree "the whole point" of 3:2's is that you can chop up a bar so many different ways, so there are loads of opportunities for pulling the beat this way and that against the basic three beat walk.
But ITM it's not.
# Posted on February 4th 2008 by TomB-R
Re: 3/2 Hornpipes
It may not be ITM but was it Irish traditional music up to about 1740/1750? The ones I know are mostly northern English, but what research has been done on Irish MSS or pre-1750 printed sources? We share reels, 4/4 hornpipes, jigs, polkas,waltzes, schottisches, etc etc - why not 3/2 hornpipes?
# Posted on February 4th 2008 by c.g.
Re: 3/2 Hornpipes
Fair point indeed, cg, though 3:2's are still in the current English tradition, but not the Irish.
Not wishing to be picky, I think polkas, schottisches and waltzes all appeared after 1750, but I take the overall point about what may have been in the earlier Irish tradition.
# Posted on February 5th 2008 by TomB-R
Re: 3/2 Hornpipes
Are there many Irish tune MSS from the c17-18? Or the nineteenth century, for that matter? I thought there was a great dearth of these compared to what exists in mainland Britain.
I know there are 3/2 tunes in a 1718 copy of Playford in my family, though I do not know the speed at which they would have been played then, or anything about how they were danced. Playford catered for a quite stylish, metropolitan market, as far as I can see - probably some way removed from the clientele of some of the 3/2s danced in the sticks of the North, or wherever.
# Posted on February 5th 2008 by nicholas
Re: 3/2 Hornpipes
I'm not sure 3/2s stayed in the English tradition - I don't remember any in the 19th C MS tune books I've transcribed (will have to check!). My impression is that they have come back into favour over the last 40 years or so, having been totally superceded by the 4/4 hornpipe after about 1750.
3/2 was certainly a popular time signature with church bands and quires, but again I'm not sure whether its popularity continued until the suppression of that type of music in the 1850's or whether it was largely earlier.
Looks like there is a bit more research to do!
# Posted on February 5th 2008 by c.g.
Re: 3/2 Hornpipes
I see the Northumbrian Pipers Tunebook, published in 1936 includes "Lads of Alnwick" for one, so they were about then, but I'd be interested to hear if you find out whether 3:2s stayed current through the C19.
# Posted on February 5th 2008 by TomB-R
Re: 3/2 Hornpipes
The Northumbrian Pipers' Tune Book Second Edition, published in 1970, published The Lads Of Alnwick as a 3/4, and I imagine a number of players up in the NE are used to seeing it as such.
# Posted on February 5th 2008 by nicholas
Re: 3/2 Hornpipes
Could prove cg's point! (Almost) 40 years ago had people forgotten that 3:2 existed?!
Perhaps I'm all wrong, maybe up there Lads of Alnwick is played as a waltz. (I'd like the evidence though!)
# Posted on February 5th 2008 by TomB-R
Re: 3/2 Hornpipes
No, it certainly isn't played as a waltz up here!
# Posted on February 6th 2008 by nicholas
Re: 3/2 Hornpipes
Tho' I concede that in Alnwick any strange thing may be possible..
# Posted on February 6th 2008 by nicholas