Festivals are where it's at - not exams or competitions!
Festivals are where it's at - not exams or competitions!
There have been some strong views opined in recent threads on competitions and exams in Irish trad. music. Whatever about the merits and demerits of the above, in my experience, festivals are where it's at, if Comhaltas or anyone else wishes to foster an interest in ITM - particularly with the upcoming generations.
The biggest influence is of course at home and amongst peers - if there are a few tunes played about the house of an evening and if a few peers play a bit - it's a fair bet that most teenagers will take an interest even if they also absorb all the commercial pop and rock culture.
After that, we have found that going to the Willie Clancy/ Joe Mooney week type of festival really gives an injection of enthusiasm. The classes can be a bit like school but there's usually a good bit of banter and fun thrown in. Throw in a few sessions with opportunites to both play and listen - pubs, campsites wherever and you're on a winner. The only downside is the cost, especially if you have a few children.
Now, I know Fleadhs have that dimension too but any kids involved in competing will have been under a fair bit of pressure to practice and compete which changes the nature of it. I can only speak from our experience of exams and competitions - they were a turn off for our children. We have pulled back - 'hey, play if want to .. nobody is forcing you'..
Re: Festivals are where it's at - not exams or competitions!
what is the Comhaltas national fleadh if it is not a festival.
it is a place where thousands of musicians get together,the vast majority of them are not competitors.
Re: Festivals are where it's at - not exams or competitions!
Right Dickens, but the discussion was largely in the context of music exams and competitions etc. and their benefits as to improving standards, passing on the traditions etc.
Have you sat or stood up and played in the big Fleadheanna? I haven't but I've felt the tension and nerves and seen the pressure the teenage competitors can be under - partic. those that fancy their chances.
I've seen my older lad at Comhaltas class, getting the same two tunes drummed into him, week after week .. in preparation for the fleadh.
So, I'm convinced it's a very good excuse for having a festival - why not drop the competitions and just have the 'p*ss up' and play a few tunes!!
Re: Festivals are where it's at - not exams or competitions!
This reminds me of kids and sports. Many parents want their kids to play and have fun and do their best, and some are obsessed with their child being the best and expecting them to be on the best select team and so on. I'm not sure music isn't much the same.
I know several people that go through the Fleadh's for the enjoyment and challenge to do their best. They are not upset if they played well and didn't place. It comes down to attitude I think. With the right attitude, I think Comhaltas can be very worthwhile, but there will always be people that think practicing the same three tunes for an entire year and getting first place is the be-all end-all, and I think we all know that's not the case.
Re: Festivals are where it's at - not exams or competitions!
yes I have stood up at munster fleadhs,and national fleadhs,and played.
The art of performing has to be learned.learning to prepare yourself for performing is important[alexander technique]
. I have been a professional performer for 35 years,I cut my teeth as a floor singer back in the late sixties in folk clubs.
in the 21st century,playing ITM is not just about playing in sessions in pubs,it is also about performing in concert ,perhaps solo.
tension and nerves have to be overcome,learning to overcome stage fright is part of performing.without the experience of doing it,it cannot be learned,if the performer makes amistake he/she has to shrug it off and keep calm and carry on.
most[98 per cent ]of the youngsters I have seen,dont seem to have any problem,with competitions.
do the people that have contributed to this thread really think that children are forced to play,if children are forced to play,it is only a tiny minority,the majority want to do it,.and are clearly enjoying the fleadhs.
the fleadhs are a great way for families to have a holiday together,in a safe environment.
Re: Festivals are where it's at - not exams or competitions!
The festivals I’ve enjoyed most, over the years, have been non-competitive. I recall several times feeling that the <whatever> festival would’ve been more fun without the embedded competition.
We’re not going to settle the question of positives vs negatives in competition, but I can tell you that lots of American musicians and fans notice “contest style” playing as a real, recognizeable sub-style.
Several years ago, a very young mandolin player from my neighborhood placed in the “Top Five” at a national competition. For the next few years MC’s often introduced him as “one of the top five mandolin players in the country,” which of course is ludicrous.
Re: Festivals are where it's at - not exams or competitions!
Hey all,
let me know how it all turns out? about the exams, learnin' scales or not, competitions etc;
I'll be in the pub playin' a few oul tunes.....see ya
Re: Festivals are where it's at - not exams or competitions!
Bob Himself, you’re spot on about the Comhaltas competition style and Comhaltas session playing style dominating the Irish traditional scene here and abroad.
In the first of a recent documentary series about regional styles (Canúintí Ceoil) on Telifís na Gaeilge (TG4 I guess it is now) Seamus Tansey blamed Comhaltas for the endangerment of regional styles in Irish music by encouraging standardization. Standardization of Gaelic by ignorant state authorities is primarily responsible for the sad state of spoken Gaelic in Ireland, and the standardised mind-numbing Comhaltas brand of Irish music has almost taken over the tradition, as a visit to many sessions will show. This is why I rarely very play at sessions; if you feel like playing an unusual local version of a tune don’t even bother, the standard version everyone knows will end up being played!
Re: Festivals are where it's at - not exams or competitions!
Dickens - "the art of performing has to be learned" etc... this is fine if what you want to do is perform a show on a stage.
However I think that the ITM most people want to be overwhelmingly involved in is NOT a performance. It is a conversation between friends.. just using music instead of words.
Sessions don't really have anything to do with Performance . It's old friends and new friends enjoying themselves.
I know these issues have been canvassed to death here but I think you're pretty wide of the mark.
As far as I can see, there is very little point in competitions in any music. To me folk music (music of & by the people) is about the feeling and spirit. Bugger having perfect technique or some other esotheric values.
I know that many of the great names in the music have competed and won the comps, but to me the very idea of having all-Ireland champions (not to mention all the other smaller comps) is a bit of a joke - sure they might be the best... of the ones that entered the competition. If kids are being told to put competition, based on a very small group of tunes, ahead of the really important wider understandings of the music... then that's a shame.
Re: Festivals are where it's at - not exams or competitions!
It's just dawned on me why we never get anywhere in these debates about competition, exams, festivals, sessions, etc. Thankfully we live in a society which tolerates diversity and most tastes are catered for. I personally, like many people on the Yellow Board, think that the session is king because of the enjoyment of the music for its own sake and equally the "social craic". Similarly I also prefer festivals and the festival element of Fleadhs to the competitions. This, however, does not give me the right to rubbish competitions or exams which do offer many positives in addition to the negatives. The thousands of people who sit the examinations each year or who take part in competitions (and please don't tell me that they're all forced to do so) are reason enough for Comhaltas to continue running them so please let's end this debate and get back to playing music!
Re: Festivals are where it's at - not exams or competitions!
Yes Bannerman, thankfully we do live in a society which sort of tolerates diversity, mostly. But we should always be on our guard against institutions (both State and otherwise) that like to put little straight jackets on us for their own ends. Look at how many myriad aspects of modern western lives are certificated nowadays.
And society mostly behaves like a flock of sheep in general. There are none so imprisoned as those that imprison themselves etc.
But you're right - it's only a small matter in the greater scheme of things.
Re: Festivals are where it's at - not exams or competitions!
'The thousands of people who sit the examinations each year or who take part in competitions (and please don't tell me that they're all forced to do so) are reason enough for Comhaltas to continue running them'.
Yep, but what point does that prove? Comhaltas benefits from all the examination fees and few of the 'thousands' ever go on to play traditional music in adult life. In other words, the exams benefit Comhaltas but few others!
Re: Festivals are where it's at - not exams or competitions!
'The thousands of people who sit the examinations each year or who take part in competitions (and please don't tell me that they're all forced to do so) are reason enough for Comhaltas to continue running them'.
Yep, but what point does that prove? Comhaltas benefits from all the examination fees and few of the 'thousands' ever go on to play traditional music in adult life. In other words, the exams benefit Comhaltas but few others.quote Macruiskeen.
I too would like some proof please .,because I can think of at least a dozen in this immediate area who have continued.
furthermore there are thousands of musicians,who go to the National Fleadh, who dont compete,and make music,but the Fleadh [and all those musicians]would not be there if it wasnt for the competitions.
Re: Festivals are where it's at - not exams or competitions!
***Warning: Approaching Conspiracy Theory***
Comhaltas creates some sort of exam regime, decides what level of understanding of the music is required to teach. Parents and students looking for a teacher compare a whole bunch of folks... he's got a certificate, she hasn't... he hasn't, she has.... oh, at least with the ones who have a certificate, you know they've passed an exam and well they must know a thing or two... value for money etc. Other teachers squeezed out.
Before you know it some sort of dreamed up system has driven out the personality from the tradition, the teaching and the music. There is such a diversity in ITM that I'm not sure if one size fits all. Could over-standardisation lead to McCultus??
Re: Festivals are where it's at - not exams or competitions!
that is a reasonable point,but only partly true,
parents also decide by studying an existing teachers reputation,they normally ask other parents before making decisions.
In my opinion adults are not so naive as to think a certificate makes a good teacher.
fInally,if there is one thing that will make players fight harder to maintain regional traditions ,it is comhaltas trying to standardise music.
that is one thing Comhaltas will never acheive.
furthermore when pupils come to me and say we need more ornamentation to win competitions,I refuse to do it.
what every person here should be doing is getting involved in teaching,getting involved with comhaltas,and try to change comhaltas from the inside.
if every teacher challenges the Comhaltas ethos of over ornamentation and standardisation[ instead of beefing off about it here],by refusing to teach in this manner ,pupils and their parents can be made aware of the diversity and importance of individual styles.
in my opinion the most important thing about exams and competitions is the focus leading up to the event.
music is about enjoyment,but enjoyment and self esteem and the acheivement of a goal, come about through dedication and hard work and self discipline,children have to be ENCOURAGED [NOT FORCED] to understand this.
talent gets the pupil nowhere without practice,as pupils progress they generally as aresult of their own practice become inspired to progress.
Festivals are where it's at - not exams or competitions!
Festivals are where it's at - not exams or competitions!
There have been some strong views opined in recent threads on competitions and exams in Irish trad. music. Whatever about the merits and demerits of the above, in my experience, festivals are where it's at, if Comhaltas or anyone else wishes to foster an interest in ITM - particularly with the upcoming generations.
The biggest influence is of course at home and amongst peers - if there are a few tunes played about the house of an evening and if a few peers play a bit - it's a fair bet that most teenagers will take an interest even if they also absorb all the commercial pop and rock culture.
After that, we have found that going to the Willie Clancy/ Joe Mooney week type of festival really gives an injection of enthusiasm. The classes can be a bit like school but there's usually a good bit of banter and fun thrown in. Throw in a few sessions with opportunites to both play and listen - pubs, campsites wherever and you're on a winner. The only downside is the cost, especially if you have a few children.
Now, I know Fleadhs have that dimension too but any kids involved in competing will have been under a fair bit of pressure to practice and compete which changes the nature of it. I can only speak from our experience of exams and competitions - they were a turn off for our children. We have pulled back - 'hey, play if want to .. nobody is forcing you'..
# Posted on January 24th 2008 by the wounded hussar
Re: Festivals are where it's at - not exams or competitions!
Someone's late addition to one of the previous threads ~ well said ~
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/16472/comments#comment341732
Here are the related discussions that have lead here, next maybe we can consider options and opportunities?
Discussion: Comhaltas and competitions - opinions?
# Posted on January 22nd 2008 by Chris Haigh
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/16472
CCE Exams: Good thing/Bad thing? Discuss.
# Posted on January 23rd 2008 by jfiddlerh
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/16482
# Posted on January 24th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: Festivals are where it's at - not exams or competitions!
neddiescotus was dead right.
A well written and level headed argument.
# Posted on January 24th 2008 by session savage
Re: Festivals are where it's at - not exams or competitions!
what is the Comhaltas national fleadh if it is not a festival.
it is a place where thousands of musicians get together,the vast majority of them are not competitors.
# Posted on January 24th 2008 by dickens metrognome
Re: Festivals are where it's at - not exams or competitions!
Right Dickens, but the discussion was largely in the context of music exams and competitions etc. and their benefits as to improving standards, passing on the traditions etc.
Have you sat or stood up and played in the big Fleadheanna? I haven't but I've felt the tension and nerves and seen the pressure the teenage competitors can be under - partic. those that fancy their chances.
I've seen my older lad at Comhaltas class, getting the same two tunes drummed into him, week after week .. in preparation for the fleadh.
So, I'm convinced it's a very good excuse for having a festival - why not drop the competitions and just have the 'p*ss up' and play a few tunes!!
# Posted on January 24th 2008 by the wounded hussar
Re: Festivals are where it's at - not exams or competitions!
oops, Not convinced, at all, at all
# Posted on January 24th 2008 by the wounded hussar
Re: Festivals are where it's at - not exams or competitions!
Your right wounded hussar.I love festivels.Can't wait for the Cooley Collins weekend in October.Will be class.
# Posted on January 24th 2008 by dinn2
Re: Festivals are where it's at - not exams or competitions!
Beautiful stuff Hussar, that's spot on. ..."play if you want, no one is forcing you..."
Hear hear, ease up on the wee ones. Let them come to the music out of love, not fear and stress.
# Posted on January 24th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Festivals are where it's at - not exams or competitions!
This reminds me of kids and sports. Many parents want their kids to play and have fun and do their best, and some are obsessed with their child being the best and expecting them to be on the best select team and so on. I'm not sure music isn't much the same.
I know several people that go through the Fleadh's for the enjoyment and challenge to do their best. They are not upset if they played well and didn't place. It comes down to attitude I think. With the right attitude, I think Comhaltas can be very worthwhile, but there will always be people that think practicing the same three tunes for an entire year and getting first place is the be-all end-all, and I think we all know that's not the case.
# Posted on January 24th 2008 by nofrets
Re: Festivals are where it's at - not exams or competitions!
yes I have stood up at munster fleadhs,and national fleadhs,and played.
The art of performing has to be learned.learning to prepare yourself for performing is important[alexander technique]
. I have been a professional performer for 35 years,I cut my teeth as a floor singer back in the late sixties in folk clubs.
in the 21st century,playing ITM is not just about playing in sessions in pubs,it is also about performing in concert ,perhaps solo.
tension and nerves have to be overcome,learning to overcome stage fright is part of performing.without the experience of doing it,it cannot be learned,if the performer makes amistake he/she has to shrug it off and keep calm and carry on.
most[98 per cent ]of the youngsters I have seen,dont seem to have any problem,with competitions.
do the people that have contributed to this thread really think that children are forced to play,if children are forced to play,it is only a tiny minority,the majority want to do it,.and are clearly enjoying the fleadhs.
the fleadhs are a great way for families to have a holiday together,in a safe environment.
# Posted on January 24th 2008 by dickens metrognome
Re: Festivals are where it's at - not exams or competitions!
The festivals I’ve enjoyed most, over the years, have been non-competitive. I recall several times feeling that the <whatever> festival would’ve been more fun without the embedded competition.
We’re not going to settle the question of positives vs negatives in competition, but I can tell you that lots of American musicians and fans notice “contest style” playing as a real, recognizeable sub-style.
Several years ago, a very young mandolin player from my neighborhood placed in the “Top Five” at a national competition. For the next few years MC’s often introduced him as “one of the top five mandolin players in the country,” which of course is ludicrous.
# Posted on January 24th 2008 by Bob himself
Re: Festivals are where it's at - not exams or competitions!
Hey all,
let me know how it all turns out? about the exams, learnin' scales or not, competitions etc;
I'll be in the pub playin' a few oul tunes.....see ya
# Posted on January 24th 2008 by john knoss
Re: Festivals are where it's at - not exams or competitions!
Bob Himself, you’re spot on about the Comhaltas competition style and Comhaltas session playing style dominating the Irish traditional scene here and abroad.
In the first of a recent documentary series about regional styles (Canúintí Ceoil) on Telifís na Gaeilge (TG4 I guess it is now) Seamus Tansey blamed Comhaltas for the endangerment of regional styles in Irish music by encouraging standardization. Standardization of Gaelic by ignorant state authorities is primarily responsible for the sad state of spoken Gaelic in Ireland, and the standardised mind-numbing Comhaltas brand of Irish music has almost taken over the tradition, as a visit to many sessions will show. This is why I rarely very play at sessions; if you feel like playing an unusual local version of a tune don’t even bother, the standard version everyone knows will end up being played!
Here’s the first episode of Canúintí Ceoil:
Part 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nHq9Yv_1d58
Part 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4paY9n4H8Iw
Part 3: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TIb_c4LbvR8
Seamus Tansey’s speech is in Episode 1, pt. 2: about 6mins. 50secs. in!
# Posted on January 24th 2008 by neddiescotus
Re: Festivals are where it's at - not exams or competitions!
Dickens - "the art of performing has to be learned" etc... this is fine if what you want to do is perform a show on a stage.
However I think that the ITM most people want to be overwhelmingly involved in is NOT a performance. It is a conversation between friends.. just using music instead of words.
Sessions don't really have anything to do with Performance . It's old friends and new friends enjoying themselves.
I know these issues have been canvassed to death here but I think you're pretty wide of the mark.
As far as I can see, there is very little point in competitions in any music. To me folk music (music of & by the people) is about the feeling and spirit. Bugger having perfect technique or some other esotheric values.
I know that many of the great names in the music have competed and won the comps, but to me the very idea of having all-Ireland champions (not to mention all the other smaller comps) is a bit of a joke - sure they might be the best... of the ones that entered the competition. If kids are being told to put competition, based on a very small group of tunes, ahead of the really important wider understandings of the music... then that's a shame.
# Posted on January 25th 2008 by Brown Creeper
Re: Festivals are where it's at - not exams or competitions!
"~ a conversation between friends..."
~ nicely put BC ~ but also including 'words' ~ the 'social craic'...
# Posted on January 25th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: Festivals are where it's at - not exams or competitions!
It's just dawned on me why we never get anywhere in these debates about competition, exams, festivals, sessions, etc. Thankfully we live in a society which tolerates diversity and most tastes are catered for. I personally, like many people on the Yellow Board, think that the session is king because of the enjoyment of the music for its own sake and equally the "social craic". Similarly I also prefer festivals and the festival element of Fleadhs to the competitions. This, however, does not give me the right to rubbish competitions or exams which do offer many positives in addition to the negatives. The thousands of people who sit the examinations each year or who take part in competitions (and please don't tell me that they're all forced to do so) are reason enough for Comhaltas to continue running them so please let's end this debate and get back to playing music!
# Posted on January 25th 2008 by Bannerman
Re: Festivals are where it's at - not exams or competitions!
Yes Bannerman, thankfully we do live in a society which sort of tolerates diversity, mostly. But we should always be on our guard against institutions (both State and otherwise) that like to put little straight jackets on us for their own ends. Look at how many myriad aspects of modern western lives are certificated nowadays.
And society mostly behaves like a flock of sheep in general. There are none so imprisoned as those that imprison themselves etc.
But you're right - it's only a small matter in the greater scheme of things.
# Posted on January 25th 2008 by the wounded hussar
Re: Festivals are where it's at - not exams or competitions!
'The thousands of people who sit the examinations each year or who take part in competitions (and please don't tell me that they're all forced to do so) are reason enough for Comhaltas to continue running them'.
Yep, but what point does that prove? Comhaltas benefits from all the examination fees and few of the 'thousands' ever go on to play traditional music in adult life. In other words, the exams benefit Comhaltas but few others!
# Posted on January 25th 2008 by Floss the Tethers
Re: Festivals are where it's at - not exams or competitions!
"Few of the thousands ever go on to play traditional music in adult life" - Proof, please ?
# Posted on January 25th 2008 by Kenny
Re: Festivals are where it's at - not exams or competitions!
I seem to have stumbled into thefestival.com
Sessions (plural) are where you learn your trade. Not one session, but years of visiting different ones.
# Posted on January 26th 2008 by geoffwright
Re: Festivals are where it's at - not exams or competitions!
'The thousands of people who sit the examinations each year or who take part in competitions (and please don't tell me that they're all forced to do so) are reason enough for Comhaltas to continue running them'.
Yep, but what point does that prove? Comhaltas benefits from all the examination fees and few of the 'thousands' ever go on to play traditional music in adult life. In other words, the exams benefit Comhaltas but few others.quote Macruiskeen.
I too would like some proof please .,because I can think of at least a dozen in this immediate area who have continued.
furthermore there are thousands of musicians,who go to the National Fleadh, who dont compete,and make music,but the Fleadh [and all those musicians]would not be there if it wasnt for the competitions.
# Posted on January 26th 2008 by dickens metrognome
Re: Festivals are where it's at - not exams or competitions!
***Warning: Approaching Conspiracy Theory***
Comhaltas creates some sort of exam regime, decides what level of understanding of the music is required to teach. Parents and students looking for a teacher compare a whole bunch of folks... he's got a certificate, she hasn't... he hasn't, she has.... oh, at least with the ones who have a certificate, you know they've passed an exam and well they must know a thing or two... value for money etc. Other teachers squeezed out.
Before you know it some sort of dreamed up system has driven out the personality from the tradition, the teaching and the music. There is such a diversity in ITM that I'm not sure if one size fits all. Could over-standardisation lead to McCultus??
# Posted on January 27th 2008 by Brown Creeper
Re: Festivals are where it's at - not exams or competitions!
that is a reasonable point,but only partly true,
parents also decide by studying an existing teachers reputation,they normally ask other parents before making decisions.
In my opinion adults are not so naive as to think a certificate makes a good teacher.
fInally,if there is one thing that will make players fight harder to maintain regional traditions ,it is comhaltas trying to standardise music.
that is one thing Comhaltas will never acheive.
furthermore when pupils come to me and say we need more ornamentation to win competitions,I refuse to do it.
what every person here should be doing is getting involved in teaching,getting involved with comhaltas,and try to change comhaltas from the inside.
if every teacher challenges the Comhaltas ethos of over ornamentation and standardisation[ instead of beefing off about it here],by refusing to teach in this manner ,pupils and their parents can be made aware of the diversity and importance of individual styles.
in my opinion the most important thing about exams and competitions is the focus leading up to the event.
music is about enjoyment,but enjoyment and self esteem and the acheivement of a goal, come about through dedication and hard work and self discipline,children have to be ENCOURAGED [NOT FORCED] to understand this.
talent gets the pupil nowhere without practice,as pupils progress they generally as aresult of their own practice become inspired to progress.
# Posted on January 27th 2008 by dickens metrognome