Just came across the link. Was bewildered. Thinking about the richness of the generations in which the music was handed down and it can now be condensed into 12 levels.
WHY DIDN'T WE REALISE BEFORE? OH GOD IT COULD ALL HAVE BEEN SO DIFFERENT........
This is one that has bewildered me for a long time now.
I seem to be undecided on the matter.
A part of me thinks that its good to have the history taught as well as the tunes. When the tunes were written and by whome is an important piece of history but something about breaking the music into 12 levels makes me shiver.
This is a living tradition, not a subject to be studied. You learn the tunes... you play the tunes... and your either good or not, but giving out grades can only serve to provide a ground for snobbery and discrimination.
Anything that even barely assists in eletism is a bad thing .. right?
This is kinda allied to the Fleadh competition thread - the main difference here is that the certificates have the possible benefit that everyone can get one i.e. there's no 1st, 2nd and 3rd as such.
But if you subscribe to the notion of 'being punished by rewards', exams and stickers and certificates are just a load of nonsense, usually put in place to reflect well on those who set up the standards and give out the sweets!! .. jaysus, I'm a terrible cynic!!
Teaching the history and providing a support framework for those who love and play the music is a WONDERFUL thing.
Turning music into rigidly structured schooling has always made me queasy, however.
[start snide comment] Do folks often get asked what Cycle they are? Isn't that the first thing you ask when you meet a fellow musician who plays Irish? "So, before we go play some tunes and grab a pint, do you mind telling me what Cycle ya are?" [end snide comment]
I think people referring to certificates as the only reason for doing the exams are missing the point. If you read the syllabus you'll see that it's a very useful musical development tool and a fairly painless way of getting from "Fainne Geal an Lae" and "Peg Ryan's Polka" to the likes of "Lord Gordon's" and "Moving Cloud", and if anyone would rather make this journey in less than 12 steps ("it can now be condensed into 12 levels") then rather them than me! In fact there is a feature for "high flyers" to jump levels if they get sufficient distinctions at the preceding one so there's nothing sacrosanct about the 12 levels. I'd have thought the anti-competition people would have welcomed the examination approach as it provides an alternative way for students to progress where everyone can be a winner in a less pressurised situation with just an examiner and no critical audience - even the "pushy" mammies are kept out of the examination rooms!
This is one of the worst ideas I have ever heard.
I think I knew something like this was possibly in the pipeline, I think it may have been to pre-empt the guys that come up with the classical system from running a trad version. Even if this were the case, I still think it a load of bollox.
Hate it hate it hate it.
Hate the idea of exams even more than competitions, Bannerman. Maybe some ideas could be taken from the syllabus, but that is the only positive I can see. And I'm not a basher of comhaltas for the sake of it. I'm a member of comhaltas.
I agree with Bannerman.
Examinations are a progressive move ,and are in my opinion preferable to competitions.
as someone who lives in rural Ireland,I would like to explain,that without Comhaltas and the GAA Scors,there would be precious little for children to do.
the GAA scors and the comhaltas seisuns /sessions /competitions provide children with oppurtunities to socialise and are a very important part of village life.
for less competitive children the examination system is a suitable alternative.
personally I wish the EFDSS did something similar,at least Comhaltas do something[it may not be perfect]but rural Ireland would be alot worse without it.Dick Miles
Bannerman,a slight digression,but I enjoy senior competitions,not because I want to win,but because I enjoy playing,and am as happy playing in a competiton,as anywhere else.
I see it as a way of giving people pleasure,be they tourists,or aspiring younger musicians,or local people that have popped in to hear music, but dont wish to go to a pub.
I mentioned the syllabus but forgot to put in a link to it - it's over at http://comhaltas.ie/press_room/detail/sct_syllabus/ for anyone who wants to check it out. I just wish this was around when I was starting out as one could become a much more rounded player by learning and understanding all these different tune types, history of the players and where the music came from, etc rather than just learning loads of reels! Chris if you went to one of these exam centres where not only are the kids playing great music, but they're also able to talk about Willie Clancy, Joe Cooley along with matters such as Sliabh Luachra styles of music, then I think you'd change your mind.
Dick, we crossed posted there. Maybe I was a bit rash in suggesting we should ban all senior competitions and I must admit to having participated in a céili band competition and also a trio many many years ago which I found very enjoyable. On reflection, I definitely wouldn't ban the ensemble type competitions. As for the solos, well you enjoy entering them and I suppose lots of other musicians do too and perhaps, more importantly, it's not compulsory to enter; OK I'm tearing up that resolution for this year's Congress !!
My thoughts on this one are similar to my views on the earlier discussion about competitions, it may not be perfect but for many kids it provides motivation to improve and practice, especially to focus on playing certain tunes really well for the exam or competition, instead of just wanting a new tune every week without ever learning to play any of them properly! With the added bonus that they all end up with something,(a certificate), to show at the end of the day, instead of just the winners getting a medal. As with competitions, as a teacher I would never pressurise kids to go in for these exams if they don't want to.
The other thing that both the exams and competitions provide is a sheet of comments from the examiner or judge, more important in many ways than actual marks because with a good judge or examiner there will hopefully be encouragement and hints on how to improve.
Music exams are detrimental and pointless, all they do is put pressure on lazy students to do some work and they tend to focus on technical playing rather than emotional playing.
People with a passion for music shouldn't need exams or competitions to encourage them to play music.
I wonder if we could use a colour coding system for whistle players like judo belts
red top 1st level green 2nd etc etc
How many levels for Bodhran players ? (starts running away laughing ) .............................
Re: CCE Exams: Good thing/Bad thing? Only Level 10 Fiddlers or Above May Apply!
Comhaltas Ceoltóirí Éireann has done considerable damage to Irish music over the years, although, admittedly, they have helped make it (or rather a very standardised version of it) quite popular. Remember a few years ago when the head of Comhaltas Ceoltóirí Éireann said there was no traditional music outside Comhaltas? Perhaps they're just trying establish their cultural dominance with paper proof! Though personally I’ve never found them the place to go for good ideas or good music.
I'm reserving judgement, but it was tried before in the 70s and failed. At that time it was the classical board that had tried to do something similar but for trad, and there were bodhran exams as an example. I remember seeing the booklets for the different instruments, not very well thought out. They main motivation was 'money'... When you work in all their charges, including for the literature, they could have made a bundle if it had taken off. Maybe they are still doing it? I remember a conservatory of music somewhere not far from Trinity College that had the thing started. They might have even had the gall to call them 'Trinity Exams', or something pretentious like that.
I will reserve judgement here, as there is a part of me that thinks it could work, in the right hands and given the right direction. But, I'm not so sure the bureaucrats of Comhaltas are the right people. But things change, sometimes, even if a little. I'd rather have hope, with some skepticism, than be a cynic. But sometimes things push me away from the 's' and toward the 'c'. I have a good grip and am managing to still hold on to hope for now...
"Remember a few years ago when the head of Comhaltas Ceoltóirí Éireann said there was no traditional music outside Comhaltas?" ~ whistleblower ~ outside of the 'Republic'...!?
God bless the North, Ulster, and Northerners... They are a persistant lot despite the shight that Comhaltas and others have dished out in their regard in the past, with disrespect...
Baz, you could also have those bars like in the military that go across your chest, and medals, with colour codes and stripes and things for the sessions you've served in... And there could be an equivalent of the purple heart, maybe a red bodhran tipper? Hey, and there could be a dress uniform for special parades!!! ~ maybe a kilt? Of course we could consider the scout option, a sash and badges?!
No Ceolachan, you read right. He said: “There is no longer any traditional Irish music outside Comhaltas Ceoltóirí Éireann”. There was quite a fuss made of it on RTE News at the time.
"and people with no passion for music shouldn't be playing it!" --Frisbee,
Yes, but I don't think you can apply that to children and students. How many of us hated going to music lessons as children, only to discover a deep connection to it later in life?
And when we did, how many of us weren't thankful for the technique that we had accrued by that point?
I’m not complaining about music lessons, music lessons are good (or at least they can be!)
The grading system in classical music is also geared towards children (or, more accurately, their parents I suppose.) The problem in the case of Comhaltas is that (as with competitions) ‘Who are these people to grade anyone on their ability to perform traditional music?’ Their record has been inexcusably appalling in their attack on some regional styles and in their quest for simplification, standardisation and conformity. They are not scholars. Any grade from them is utterly worthless, and no doubt they wish spread their dominance over teaching the young by appealing to parents’ wish for bits of paper to show the aunts!
Georgi says "Yes, but I don't think you can apply that to children and students. How many of us hated going to music lessons as children, only to discover a deep connection to it later in life?"
Perhaps the reason you hated music as a kid was because it was forced onto you, exams only perpetuate this. Better teaching based on fun and creativity would help kids enjoy learning music. Exams and competitions only create stress which should not be applied to kids in my opinion.
Just think how much better it would be for you if you discovered a deep connection to music when you were younger rather than later in life.
I hated any childhood lessons myself to the point that I even hated music for a while. Then around 12 years old I started messing around with a guitar and taught myself. The beauty of teaching yourself is you only have to learn what you want to learn and you develop technique by tackling difficult music you like. I only ever encountered music competitions and exams in my 20's when I voluntarily chose to go to music college. I still hated the competitions and exams though!
So when I have kids I'm gonna let them decide whether they want to learn an instrument and I'll never force them to sit exams or enter competitions, and Comhaltas is the last place I'd send them for lessons!
I’m not complaining about music lessons, music lessons are good (or at least they can be!)
The grading system in classical music is also geared towards children (or, more accurately, their parents I suppose.) The problem in the case of Comhaltas is that (as with competitions) ‘Who are these people to grade anyone on their ability to perform traditional music?’ Their record has been inexcusably appalling in their attack on some regional styles and in their quest for simplification, standardisation and conformity. They are not scholars. Any grade from them is utterly worthless, and no doubt they wish spread their dominance over teaching the young by appealing to parents’ wish for bits of paper to show the aunts!
"Yes, but I don't think you can apply that to children and students. How many of us hated going to music lessons as children, only to discover a deep connection to it later in life?
And when we did, how many of us weren't thankful for the technique that we had accrued by that point?" ~ Georgi
Georgi, I met a lot of the source musicians ~ and of those older souls I valued the most ~ NONE were ever forced to play, they took to it, to use an old cliche, like a fish to water ~ and 'competition' never came into it... All that rigamarole your waving the flag for is 'new fangled', 'new wave', at lesat as far as they'd be concerned, to them and me and the reality of time it has a very short history and a crazy growth curve upwards since the end of the 2nd World War and the institutionalization of Irish music via the likes of CCE...
No, I'm not saying or even hinting it is 'all bad', but put it in perspective. CCE has a very short history... The 'tradition' predates its institutionalization, and it still also exists outside of that generally heavy handed influence, thank goodness...
I suspect one could find a difference between attitude and music between say a musician who started copying his father's or uncle's or mother's fiddling with fire tongs, longing for a real fiddle ~ and one of those electric hot-shots who was forced to attend lessons and win medals and was raised up on all that hype...
Somehow I can't imagine any of those lovely old characters going through all those cycles. In fact, knowing their sense of humour and heart, if anything it would have put them off it all together, and soured their humour as well in the processing...
"Perhaps the reason you hated music as a kid was because it was forced onto you, exams only perpetuate this. Better teaching based on fun and creativity would help kids enjoy learning music. Exams and competitions only create stress which should not be applied to kids in my opinion."
I wasn't forced, so much as "strongly encouraged". If I hated lessons and practicing, it was because I would have preferred to run around outside in the woods over practicing. I'm really eternally grateful to my parents. Learning music takes WORK, and many children, myself included, would have avoided work if given the opportunity (I also would have avoided homework and vegetables, for the record).
It never (well, maybe "rarely") works to FORCE a child to play. You have to convince them to want to do it--and that is something that I believe parents DO have a responsibility to do. If exams and/or competitions are a motivating factor (and I believe that they can be in many cases), then more power to them. If exams/competitions did nothing more than encourage kids to pay more attention to the traditional stylings, then I'd say they are worth it by a long shot.
Ceolachan, I'll happily acknowledge that kids with solid traditional music in their environment (and a good set of fire tongs) will play music regardless of circumstances (though experience leads me to believe that many/most of them probably had their parents encouragement--even if it was covert). The stages and exams, however, are not targeted at those children. They are for kids growing up in populated areas that would otherwise be spending their time with malls and xboxes. The kid with the fire-tongs will likely be a fine musician regardless, but let's not pretend that he/she is the ONLY one worthy to play a jig or reel (though she may be one of the nicer musicians). I certainly hope that, if the kid with the xbox finds himself in fiddle lessons, he's getting at least some trad-sensible tuition. And if the closest the family can come to trad-sensible lessons involves the stages, then so be it.
The stages are certainly not everything (not even 1/4 of everything, IMHO), but they do a decent job of setting a minimum standard for teachers and students--and if xbox-boy should feel motivated to get to level 4 sooner, all the more power to him and the stages.
In any art, you have the gifted and prodigal high-artists (the Picassos, Van Goghs, and Da Vincis), and you have the high-school art teachers (who are a long way from being Picasso themselves).
Nobody is claiming that the high-school art program is necessary for the next Picasso. But would you argue that the high-school art program is bad for the other children?
Fair comment Georgi, I'm glad you are hear to set some kind of balance, or I'd have been forced into a corner to try, with less passion built up there... It is still a problem as to what exactly is conveyed along with the music (and/or dance) through the more 'mechanized' processing. So much more than a tune or a twiddle or a step is passed on in the older way with 'tradition'. I'm not suggesting that can't happen in a classroom or through more 'artificial' means. But, I am suggesting that mostly those other aspects that build character and patience and a positive attitude are the first that get taken for granted and overlooked. That, and I have seen it amongst some of the crop of processed musicians, is what I mean by a difference in the resulting attitude and character of the music (dance) and musician (dancer)...
In much of what you say, the gist, I can't completely deny the possibilities of benefit, but I also can't set aside my own experiences with the results, such as a growing number fed just the technical aspects of it all for whom the 'music' ('dance') are the be all and end all ~ and the sense of humour or sociability is no better or worse than a mall rat or computer nerd...
Ah come on Bannerman ..... quote 'but they're also able to talk about Willie Clancy, Joe Cooley along with matters such as Sliabh Luachra styles of music, then I think you'd change your mind'!!
Our kids did local classes and the teacher suggested these exams a few years ago - so what does she say 'well boys and girls, you'll be asked about your influences, so here's a list of who's who ... go learn this list and use these names' or words to that effect!!!
It's just the usual rubbish, people are prepared for an exam like this as any other - in one ear and out the next. So while your intention may be good, it just doesn't work out like that.
A person (child or adult) learns when they are interested and self motivated in the subject and will learn regardless of exams or tests or competitions.
Several years ago, I was involved in a committee that was asked to codify the training and examination of a sport for use in educational training and certifications. My head nearly exploded as they tried to isolate and categorise every little skill ... figure out how to teach it, who should teach it, how and who to assess it. What started out as something simple became a massive manual of gobbeldy gook as far removed as could be from the sport itself.
I have looked with considerable suspicion on the educational system ever since!!
Alright, I have other reasons for strongly disliking exams and the whole damned idea. I'm a dyslexic, and in my case it is about short term memory. The way I make a joke out of it, and it can be damned frustrating, for me and others, like my dear wife, is to say ~ "I have an excellent memory, it just doesn't perform on demand!" I just never made it with exams. I'd ball up on one question, knowing I knew the answer, but for the life of me it wouldn't surface when I needed it most. Then later, sometimes the next day or worse, the answer I'd wanted so desperately would just bubble up to the surface. So, for me EXAMS were and are extremely unfair. And then you've all that shight others give out to you about you being thick or a half wit because you don't function well in such situations. I feel stupid, nobody needs to do it to me, I belittle myself, especially knowing I know the answer, it is awful... And for full admission ~ I hate it!!!
Imagining someone like Con Cassidy or Con Foley or any other, or any of the children or spouses of other musicians I've known ~ put under that kind of classroom approach to it all, what, as inferred to previously, can be so sterile and clinical ~ sitting exams ~ is like imagining pulling my own teeth without any anaesthesia. I don't have to question whether it would work or be beneficial ~ it would be counter productive.
When I think of some of those brats that whized through exams without a problem and then used to look down on the rest of us as something inferior ~ well ~ I've seen that in some of the 'new' crop too. Some of them seem to be always sporting for a competition, a bit like being on the motorway and some a*shole coming up your backside and tailgating you ~ that's just horribly uncomfortable and nasty...
And now, also, to all you out there that came to it late, that later in life, post pre-teens, decided you wanted to do this, to be involved in this music and dance, from free choice, and the passion has you ~ GOD BLESS YOU ALL!!! You are closer to 'tradition' than those that have had it force fed to them... You have chosen to do this, inspired to do it. That is an inspiration and nurture closer to the fire tongs than an exam room... You're not likely to have come to it wanting a wall of medals and trophies, though some of you do treat tunes similarly...
Now, having said that ~ yes, I also want some easy introduction for all ~ increased opportunities for others to find and appreciate this thing that has given me and others so much. But, I don't think competitions or this system of exams is the right answer...
A group of us once went in and turned on a load of delinquent teens, in a prison, and some were there for murder, others for prostitution, etc... They had a blast, and so did we. It was fun and we did a lot of laughing, and there were some near tears moments. If we'd gone in there to lecture at them, followed by an exam ~ well, we may have not come out in one piece, or as inspired an enriched by them and the experience as we were, and sad for them in their situation and the circumstances that had lead them there, increased understanding and appreciation we'd also gained in the exchange...
"It's just the usual rubbish, people are prepared for an exam like this as any other - in one ear and out the next" - I suppose that this phenomenon applies to virtually all aspects of learning as who remembers everything they're taught? However, what they do absorb will still make their traditional experience infinitely better than just knowing a pile of "gan ainms". One other requirement with these exams where students must present a repertoire list of the tunes they know (the examiner then picks a couple at random for them to play) is also a big plus - kids doing competitions need only 4 or so tunes plus one or two extra in case of a recall.
exams in traditional music are now happening in scotland and newcastle,nothing to do with comhaltas.
most people on the English and Scottish folk scene, think they are [overall] a good idea.
Exams like competitions are not the be all and end all,but they have certain uses.
when someonehas passed an exam or won a competition,it shows that they have studied hard and acquired acertain standard of competence[nothing more and nothing less].
providing that is borne in mind,by everyone,What is the problem.
if competitions and exams were abolished,there would be no national fleadh as we now know it.
many children in rural ireland,would have an important social part of their lives removed.
Comhaltas acquires money through examinations and competitions [so what],so does the associated boards of music with classical music examinations.
Do comhaltas not make enough money from membership fees and government funding (€5,640,000 in 06).
Competitions - yes, they are ok if you choose to enter yourself.
Classes - Fantastic - they offer a place for kids to learn the tunes and the history associated with them and also give kids in rural areas a place to make friends and socialise.
grading - NO NO NO. ther is no need for grading. if you are in a class and are at a level of higher proficiency than your class mates you could be moved to a more advanced class, but giving out labels.. sorry, but that is something I dont agree with.
Comhaltas can still earn money without the creation of 'grades'
As i said in my first reply. 'giving out grades can only serve to provide a ground for snobbery and discrimination'
I cant help but feel that these grades will create a competitive atmosphere in a class, with kids competing to get better results than each other.
A competitive atmosphere should be kept in a competition but in a class where students are learning, the focus should be on helping each other and enjoying the music.
But hey, I'm by no means an expert and thats just my opinion.
I absolutely accept Bannerman, that your hearts in the right place - that you have the future of trad music in mind. Personally, I just not convinced about the method.
Look what has happened to the Gaelige in Ireland - I learnt it in school from age 4 to 18, got a pass in my Leaving. Whilst I have an interest still (amazingly!) in the language, I couldn't conduct a conversation 'as Gaelige' and I'll bet you the vast majority of people who have been through the Irish education system are in the same boat. What turned us off? Why has the language declined despite the State throwing it's weight behind it. Because it was shoved down our throats in a series of utterly boring and meaningless exercises and tests. I was taught how to pass the exam - here are the phrases you can use in any essay. That's the way of it and it makes me angry that 30 years later, my children are now getting the same old guff - lists of phrases and sentences to repeat like a bloody parrot.
Whereas look at Irish trad music - it has survived and even thrived in spite of almost total State neglect. It's only very recently as far as I know, that the Arts Council of Ireland (who dispense monies) even considered ITM as an art form at all.
Why has it thrived where the language has declined? There may be many reasons but among them, is that it is not perceived as boring and dead. It is not perceived in young peoples minds with exams and school. They link it with a bit of craic. It might be easier to kill that than you think.
"I absolutely accept Bannerman, that your hearts in the right place - that you have the future of trad music in mind. Personally, I just not convinced about the method." ~ the hussar
Yes, I have to agree on those points too. I know that there is 'heart' there. The 'methods', competitions and exams, can also be seen as other opportunities ~ but magnets for what kind of personalities? ~ resulting in what? These methods also hold the same promise as other related systems, opportunities to feel the fool, and as such will at least equally dissuade, repel others... The best thing I saw going that was Comhaltas related were the sessions with classes beforehand, all levels, all instruments, and some group work too. I saw those in the countryside, I saw them in the cities. They were great, as are other aspects of celebrating the tradition associated with the festivals / fleadhs. There too, one of the best things going were the classes that happened the week before the All-Ireland ~ all welcome and participatory and no judging or as I've also heard during adjudication ~ belittling...
The nature of an 'exam' or a 'competition' is somehow not the 'open door' I'm mostly familiar with in regards to 'tradition'. They lack the warmth and humour and the full heartefelt welcome...
Competitions, which judge the adjudicator's favourite rather than the "best", are a nonsense. Exams in ITM is an infamita, a sacrilege.
Music is for playing, and even enjoying. Are we to have an 11 plus for music, those that pass are sent to elite music schools and the failures condemned?
Just play, your real friends will let you know how accomplished you are.
CCE Exams: Good thing/Bad thing? Discuss.
CCE Exams: Good thing/Bad thing? Discuss.
http://comhaltas.ie/education/sct_exam/
Just came across the link. Was bewildered. Thinking about the richness of the generations in which the music was handed down and it can now be condensed into 12 levels.
WHY DIDN'T WE REALISE BEFORE? OH GOD IT COULD ALL HAVE BEEN SO DIFFERENT........
# Posted on January 23rd 2008 by jfiddlerh
Re: CCE Exams: Good thing/Bad thing? Discuss.
This is one that has bewildered me for a long time now.
I seem to be undecided on the matter.
A part of me thinks that its good to have the history taught as well as the tunes. When the tunes were written and by whome is an important piece of history but something about breaking the music into 12 levels makes me shiver.
This is a living tradition, not a subject to be studied. You learn the tunes... you play the tunes... and your either good or not, but giving out grades can only serve to provide a ground for snobbery and discrimination.
Anything that even barely assists in eletism is a bad thing .. right?
# Posted on January 23rd 2008 by session savage
Re: CCE Exams: Good thing/Bad thing? Discuss.
Hmm...I think I found the reason behind all of it.
Elementary Cycle 1 €22.50
Elementary Cycle 2 €22.50
Elementary Cycle 3 €22.50
Junior Cycle 1 €22.50
Junior Cycle 2 €29.50
Junior Cycle 3 €29.50
Junior Cycle 4 €38.00
Junior Cycle 5 €45.00
Senior Cycle 1 €53.50
Senior Cycle 2 €60.00
Senior Cycle 3 €69.00
Senior Cycle 4 €69.00
# Posted on January 23rd 2008 by mcdevincabe
Re: CCE Exams: Good thing/Bad thing? Discuss.
This is kinda allied to the Fleadh competition thread - the main difference here is that the certificates have the possible benefit that everyone can get one i.e. there's no 1st, 2nd and 3rd as such.
But if you subscribe to the notion of 'being punished by rewards', exams and stickers and certificates are just a load of nonsense, usually put in place to reflect well on those who set up the standards and give out the sweets!! .. jaysus, I'm a terrible cynic!!
# Posted on January 23rd 2008 by the wounded hussar
Re: CCE Exams: Good thing/Bad thing? Discuss.
Teaching the history and providing a support framework for those who love and play the music is a WONDERFUL thing.
Turning music into rigidly structured schooling has always made me queasy, however.
[start snide comment] Do folks often get asked what Cycle they are? Isn't that the first thing you ask when you meet a fellow musician who plays Irish? "So, before we go play some tunes and grab a pint, do you mind telling me what Cycle ya are?" [end snide comment]
# Posted on January 23rd 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: CCE Exams: Good thing/Bad thing? Discuss.
Sounds like something fintan in D4 would say.. "Hey Setanta, what cycle are you?"
# Posted on January 23rd 2008 by session savage
Re: CCE Exams: Good thing/Bad thing? Discuss.
"Senior Cycle 4 Only Session" ~ hold your credentials up for the scanner...
Yes, mcdevincabe, I think you might have your finger on the pulse...
# Posted on January 23rd 2008 by ceolachan
Re: CCE Exams: Good thing/Bad thing? Discuss.
Discussion: Comhaltas and competitions - opinions?
# Posted on January 22nd 2008 by Chris Haigh
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/16472
Making the connections...
# Posted on January 23rd 2008 by ceolachan
Re: CCE Exams: Good thing/Bad thing? Discuss.
how to take the fun out of it.......
'lets organise it'
for Pete's sake!
# Posted on January 23rd 2008 by john knoss
Re: CCE Exams: Good thing/Bad thing? Discuss.
I think people referring to certificates as the only reason for doing the exams are missing the point. If you read the syllabus you'll see that it's a very useful musical development tool and a fairly painless way of getting from "Fainne Geal an Lae" and "Peg Ryan's Polka" to the likes of "Lord Gordon's" and "Moving Cloud", and if anyone would rather make this journey in less than 12 steps ("it can now be condensed into 12 levels") then rather them than me! In fact there is a feature for "high flyers" to jump levels if they get sufficient distinctions at the preceding one so there's nothing sacrosanct about the 12 levels. I'd have thought the anti-competition people would have welcomed the examination approach as it provides an alternative way for students to progress where everyone can be a winner in a less pressurised situation with just an examiner and no critical audience - even the "pushy" mammies are kept out of the examination rooms!
# Posted on January 23rd 2008 by Bannerman
Re: CCE Exams: Good thing/Bad thing? Discuss.
This is one of the worst ideas I have ever heard.
I think I knew something like this was possibly in the pipeline, I think it may have been to pre-empt the guys that come up with the classical system from running a trad version. Even if this were the case, I still think it a load of bollox.
Hate it hate it hate it.
Hate the idea of exams even more than competitions, Bannerman. Maybe some ideas could be taken from the syllabus, but that is the only positive I can see. And I'm not a basher of comhaltas for the sake of it. I'm a member of comhaltas.
- Chris
# Posted on January 23rd 2008 by ramblingpitchfork
Re: CCE Exams: Good thing/Bad thing? Discuss.
I agree with Bannerman.
Examinations are a progressive move ,and are in my opinion preferable to competitions.
as someone who lives in rural Ireland,I would like to explain,that without Comhaltas and the GAA Scors,there would be precious little for children to do.
the GAA scors and the comhaltas seisuns /sessions /competitions provide children with oppurtunities to socialise and are a very important part of village life.
for less competitive children the examination system is a suitable alternative.
personally I wish the EFDSS did something similar,at least Comhaltas do something[it may not be perfect]but rural Ireland would be alot worse without it.Dick Miles
# Posted on January 23rd 2008 by dickens metrognome
Re: CCE Exams: Good thing/Bad thing? Discuss.
Bannerman,a slight digression,but I enjoy senior competitions,not because I want to win,but because I enjoy playing,and am as happy playing in a competiton,as anywhere else.
I see it as a way of giving people pleasure,be they tourists,or aspiring younger musicians,or local people that have popped in to hear music, but dont wish to go to a pub.
# Posted on January 23rd 2008 by dickens metrognome
Re: CCE Exams: Good thing/Bad thing? Discuss.
I mentioned the syllabus but forgot to put in a link to it - it's over at http://comhaltas.ie/press_room/detail/sct_syllabus/ for anyone who wants to check it out. I just wish this was around when I was starting out as one could become a much more rounded player by learning and understanding all these different tune types, history of the players and where the music came from, etc rather than just learning loads of reels! Chris if you went to one of these exam centres where not only are the kids playing great music, but they're also able to talk about Willie Clancy, Joe Cooley along with matters such as Sliabh Luachra styles of music, then I think you'd change your mind.
# Posted on January 23rd 2008 by Bannerman
Re: CCE Exams: Good thing/Bad thing? Discuss.
Dick, we crossed posted there. Maybe I was a bit rash in suggesting we should ban all senior competitions and I must admit to having participated in a céili band competition and also a trio many many years ago which I found very enjoyable. On reflection, I definitely wouldn't ban the ensemble type competitions. As for the solos, well you enjoy entering them and I suppose lots of other musicians do too and perhaps, more importantly, it's not compulsory to enter; OK I'm tearing up that resolution for this year's Congress !!
# Posted on January 23rd 2008 by Bannerman
Re: CCE Exams: Good thing/Bad thing? Discuss.
My thoughts on this one are similar to my views on the earlier discussion about competitions, it may not be perfect but for many kids it provides motivation to improve and practice, especially to focus on playing certain tunes really well for the exam or competition, instead of just wanting a new tune every week without ever learning to play any of them properly! With the added bonus that they all end up with something,(a certificate), to show at the end of the day, instead of just the winners getting a medal. As with competitions, as a teacher I would never pressurise kids to go in for these exams if they don't want to.
The other thing that both the exams and competitions provide is a sheet of comments from the examiner or judge, more important in many ways than actual marks because with a good judge or examiner there will hopefully be encouragement and hints on how to improve.
# Posted on January 23rd 2008 by cathycook
Re: CCE Exams: Good thing/Bad thing? Discuss.
Music exams are detrimental and pointless, all they do is put pressure on lazy students to do some work and they tend to focus on technical playing rather than emotional playing.
People with a passion for music shouldn't need exams or competitions to encourage them to play music.
# Posted on January 23rd 2008 by Worldwide Pants
Re: CCE Exams: Good thing/Bad thing? Discuss.
and people with no passion for music shouldn't be playing it!
# Posted on January 23rd 2008 by Worldwide Pants
Re: CCE Exams: Good thing/Bad thing? Discuss.
I wonder if we could use a colour coding system for whistle players like judo belts
.............................
red top 1st level green 2nd etc etc
How many levels for Bodhran players ? (starts running away laughing )
# Posted on January 23rd 2008 by bazouki dave and the real tooty flutey
Re: CCE Exams: Good thing/Bad thing? Only Level 10 Fiddlers or Above May Apply!
Comhaltas Ceoltóirí Éireann has done considerable damage to Irish music over the years, although, admittedly, they have helped make it (or rather a very standardised version of it) quite popular. Remember a few years ago when the head of Comhaltas Ceoltóirí Éireann said there was no traditional music outside Comhaltas? Perhaps they're just trying establish their cultural dominance with paper proof! Though personally I’ve never found them the place to go for good ideas or good music.
# Posted on January 23rd 2008 by whistleblower
Re: CCE Exams: Good thing/Bad thing? Discuss.
...not the current head of the organisation, I should add...
# Posted on January 23rd 2008 by whistleblower
Re: CCE Exams: Good thing/Bad thing? Discuss.
I'm reserving judgement, but it was tried before in the 70s and failed. At that time it was the classical board that had tried to do something similar but for trad, and there were bodhran exams as an example. I remember seeing the booklets for the different instruments, not very well thought out. They main motivation was 'money'... When you work in all their charges, including for the literature, they could have made a bundle if it had taken off. Maybe they are still doing it? I remember a conservatory of music somewhere not far from Trinity College that had the thing started. They might have even had the gall to call them 'Trinity Exams', or something pretentious like that.
I will reserve judgement here, as there is a part of me that thinks it could work, in the right hands and given the right direction. But, I'm not so sure the bureaucrats of Comhaltas are the right people. But things change, sometimes, even if a little. I'd rather have hope, with some skepticism, than be a cynic. But sometimes things push me away from the 's' and toward the 'c'. I have a good grip and am managing to still hold on to hope for now...
# Posted on January 24th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: CCE Exams: Good thing/Bad thing? Discuss.
"Remember a few years ago when the head of Comhaltas Ceoltóirí Éireann said there was no traditional music outside Comhaltas?" ~ whistleblower ~ outside of the 'Republic'...!?
God bless the North, Ulster, and Northerners... They are a persistant lot despite the shight that Comhaltas and others have dished out in their regard in the past, with disrespect...
# Posted on January 24th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: CCE Exams: Good thing/Bad thing? Discuss.
Baz, you could also have those bars like in the military that go across your chest, and medals, with colour codes and stripes and things for the sessions you've served in... And there could be an equivalent of the purple heart, maybe a red bodhran tipper? Hey, and there could be a dress uniform for special parades!!! ~ maybe a kilt? Of course we could consider the scout option, a sash and badges?!
# Posted on January 24th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: CCE Exams: Good thing/Bad thing? Discuss.
No Ceolachan, you read right. He said: “There is no longer any traditional Irish music outside Comhaltas Ceoltóirí Éireann”. There was quite a fuss made of it on RTE News at the time.
# Posted on January 24th 2008 by whistleblower
Re: CCE Exams: Good thing/Bad thing? Discuss.
"and people with no passion for music shouldn't be playing it!" --Frisbee,
Yes, but I don't think you can apply that to children and students. How many of us hated going to music lessons as children, only to discover a deep connection to it later in life?
And when we did, how many of us weren't thankful for the technique that we had accrued by that point?
# Posted on January 24th 2008 by Georgi
Re: CCE Exams: Good thing/Bad thing? Discuss.
I’m not complaining about music lessons, music lessons are good (or at least they can be!)
The grading system in classical music is also geared towards children (or, more accurately, their parents I suppose.) The problem in the case of Comhaltas is that (as with competitions) ‘Who are these people to grade anyone on their ability to perform traditional music?’ Their record has been inexcusably appalling in their attack on some regional styles and in their quest for simplification, standardisation and conformity. They are not scholars. Any grade from them is utterly worthless, and no doubt they wish spread their dominance over teaching the young by appealing to parents’ wish for bits of paper to show the aunts!
# Posted on January 24th 2008 by whistleblower
How not to play Irish music?
Seems not so long ago some of us were delivering exams.
# Posted on January 24th 2008 by Random_notes
Re: CCE Exams: Good thing/Bad thing? Discuss.
Georgi says "Yes, but I don't think you can apply that to children and students. How many of us hated going to music lessons as children, only to discover a deep connection to it later in life?"
Perhaps the reason you hated music as a kid was because it was forced onto you, exams only perpetuate this. Better teaching based on fun and creativity would help kids enjoy learning music. Exams and competitions only create stress which should not be applied to kids in my opinion.
Just think how much better it would be for you if you discovered a deep connection to music when you were younger rather than later in life.
I hated any childhood lessons myself to the point that I even hated music for a while. Then around 12 years old I started messing around with a guitar and taught myself. The beauty of teaching yourself is you only have to learn what you want to learn and you develop technique by tackling difficult music you like. I only ever encountered music competitions and exams in my 20's when I voluntarily chose to go to music college. I still hated the competitions and exams though!
So when I have kids I'm gonna let them decide whether they want to learn an instrument and I'll never force them to sit exams or enter competitions, and Comhaltas is the last place I'd send them for lessons!
# Posted on January 24th 2008 by Worldwide Pants
Re: CCE Exams: Good thing/Bad thing? Discuss.
I’m not complaining about music lessons, music lessons are good (or at least they can be!)
The grading system in classical music is also geared towards children (or, more accurately, their parents I suppose.) The problem in the case of Comhaltas is that (as with competitions) ‘Who are these people to grade anyone on their ability to perform traditional music?’ Their record has been inexcusably appalling in their attack on some regional styles and in their quest for simplification, standardisation and conformity. They are not scholars. Any grade from them is utterly worthless, and no doubt they wish spread their dominance over teaching the young by appealing to parents’ wish for bits of paper to show the aunts!
# Posted on January 24th 2008 by neddiescotus
Re: CCE Exams: Good thing/Bad thing? Discuss.
Sorry Whistle dude,
I reposted your post by mistake. Mine's on the competition thread! (Advice, never cut and paste when you're on-line!)
# Posted on January 24th 2008 by neddiescotus
Re: CCE Exams: Good thing/Bad thing? Discuss.
"Yes, but I don't think you can apply that to children and students. How many of us hated going to music lessons as children, only to discover a deep connection to it later in life?
And when we did, how many of us weren't thankful for the technique that we had accrued by that point?" ~ Georgi
Georgi, I met a lot of the source musicians ~ and of those older souls I valued the most ~ NONE were ever forced to play, they took to it, to use an old cliche, like a fish to water ~ and 'competition' never came into it... All that rigamarole your waving the flag for is 'new fangled', 'new wave', at lesat as far as they'd be concerned, to them and me and the reality of time it has a very short history and a crazy growth curve upwards since the end of the 2nd World War and the institutionalization of Irish music via the likes of CCE...
No, I'm not saying or even hinting it is 'all bad', but put it in perspective. CCE has a very short history... The 'tradition' predates its institutionalization, and it still also exists outside of that generally heavy handed influence, thank goodness...
# Posted on January 24th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: CCE Exams: Good thing/Bad thing? Discuss.
I suspect one could find a difference between attitude and music between say a musician who started copying his father's or uncle's or mother's fiddling with fire tongs, longing for a real fiddle ~ and one of those electric hot-shots who was forced to attend lessons and win medals and was raised up on all that hype...
Somehow I can't imagine any of those lovely old characters going through all those cycles. In fact, knowing their sense of humour and heart, if anything it would have put them off it all together, and soured their humour as well in the processing...
# Posted on January 24th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: CCE Exams: Good thing/Bad thing? Discuss.
"Perhaps the reason you hated music as a kid was because it was forced onto you, exams only perpetuate this. Better teaching based on fun and creativity would help kids enjoy learning music. Exams and competitions only create stress which should not be applied to kids in my opinion."
I wasn't forced, so much as "strongly encouraged". If I hated lessons and practicing, it was because I would have preferred to run around outside in the woods over practicing. I'm really eternally grateful to my parents. Learning music takes WORK, and many children, myself included, would have avoided work if given the opportunity (I also would have avoided homework and vegetables, for the record).
It never (well, maybe "rarely") works to FORCE a child to play. You have to convince them to want to do it--and that is something that I believe parents DO have a responsibility to do. If exams and/or competitions are a motivating factor (and I believe that they can be in many cases), then more power to them. If exams/competitions did nothing more than encourage kids to pay more attention to the traditional stylings, then I'd say they are worth it by a long shot.
Ceolachan, I'll happily acknowledge that kids with solid traditional music in their environment (and a good set of fire tongs) will play music regardless of circumstances (though experience leads me to believe that many/most of them probably had their parents encouragement--even if it was covert). The stages and exams, however, are not targeted at those children. They are for kids growing up in populated areas that would otherwise be spending their time with malls and xboxes. The kid with the fire-tongs will likely be a fine musician regardless, but let's not pretend that he/she is the ONLY one worthy to play a jig or reel (though she may be one of the nicer musicians). I certainly hope that, if the kid with the xbox finds himself in fiddle lessons, he's getting at least some trad-sensible tuition. And if the closest the family can come to trad-sensible lessons involves the stages, then so be it.
The stages are certainly not everything (not even 1/4 of everything, IMHO), but they do a decent job of setting a minimum standard for teachers and students--and if xbox-boy should feel motivated to get to level 4 sooner, all the more power to him and the stages.
# Posted on January 24th 2008 by Georgi
Re: CCE Exams: Good thing/Bad thing? Discuss.
To put it a different way:
In any art, you have the gifted and prodigal high-artists (the Picassos, Van Goghs, and Da Vincis), and you have the high-school art teachers (who are a long way from being Picasso themselves).
Nobody is claiming that the high-school art program is necessary for the next Picasso. But would you argue that the high-school art program is bad for the other children?
# Posted on January 24th 2008 by Georgi
Re: CCE Exams: Good thing/Bad thing? Discuss.
Fair comment Georgi, I'm glad you are hear to set some kind of balance, or I'd have been forced into a corner to try, with less passion built up there... It is still a problem as to what exactly is conveyed along with the music (and/or dance) through the more 'mechanized' processing. So much more than a tune or a twiddle or a step is passed on in the older way with 'tradition'. I'm not suggesting that can't happen in a classroom or through more 'artificial' means. But, I am suggesting that mostly those other aspects that build character and patience and a positive attitude are the first that get taken for granted and overlooked. That, and I have seen it amongst some of the crop of processed musicians, is what I mean by a difference in the resulting attitude and character of the music (dance) and musician (dancer)...
In much of what you say, the gist, I can't completely deny the possibilities of benefit, but I also can't set aside my own experiences with the results, such as a growing number fed just the technical aspects of it all for whom the 'music' ('dance') are the be all and end all ~ and the sense of humour or sociability is no better or worse than a mall rat or computer nerd...
# Posted on January 24th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: CCE Exams: Good thing/Bad thing? Discuss.
Ah come on Bannerman ..... quote 'but they're also able to talk about Willie Clancy, Joe Cooley along with matters such as Sliabh Luachra styles of music, then I think you'd change your mind'!!
Our kids did local classes and the teacher suggested these exams a few years ago - so what does she say 'well boys and girls, you'll be asked about your influences, so here's a list of who's who ... go learn this list and use these names' or words to that effect!!!
It's just the usual rubbish, people are prepared for an exam like this as any other - in one ear and out the next. So while your intention may be good, it just doesn't work out like that.
A person (child or adult) learns when they are interested and self motivated in the subject and will learn regardless of exams or tests or competitions.
Several years ago, I was involved in a committee that was asked to codify the training and examination of a sport for use in educational training and certifications. My head nearly exploded as they tried to isolate and categorise every little skill ... figure out how to teach it, who should teach it, how and who to assess it. What started out as something simple became a massive manual of gobbeldy gook as far removed as could be from the sport itself.
I have looked with considerable suspicion on the educational system ever since!!
# Posted on January 24th 2008 by the wounded hussar
Re: CCE Exams: Good thing/Bad thing? Discuss.
Someone just poked me in the ribs digitally.
Alright, I have other reasons for strongly disliking exams and the whole damned idea. I'm a dyslexic, and in my case it is about short term memory. The way I make a joke out of it, and it can be damned frustrating, for me and others, like my dear wife, is to say ~ "I have an excellent memory, it just doesn't perform on demand!" I just never made it with exams. I'd ball up on one question, knowing I knew the answer, but for the life of me it wouldn't surface when I needed it most. Then later, sometimes the next day or worse, the answer I'd wanted so desperately would just bubble up to the surface. So, for me EXAMS were and are extremely unfair. And then you've all that shight others give out to you about you being thick or a half wit because you don't function well in such situations. I feel stupid, nobody needs to do it to me, I belittle myself, especially knowing I know the answer, it is awful... And for full admission ~ I hate it!!!
Imagining someone like Con Cassidy or Con Foley or any other, or any of the children or spouses of other musicians I've known ~ put under that kind of classroom approach to it all, what, as inferred to previously, can be so sterile and clinical ~ sitting exams ~ is like imagining pulling my own teeth without any anaesthesia. I don't have to question whether it would work or be beneficial ~ it would be counter productive.
When I think of some of those brats that whized through exams without a problem and then used to look down on the rest of us as something inferior ~ well ~ I've seen that in some of the 'new' crop too. Some of them seem to be always sporting for a competition, a bit like being on the motorway and some a*shole coming up your backside and tailgating you ~ that's just horribly uncomfortable and nasty...
And now, also, to all you out there that came to it late, that later in life, post pre-teens, decided you wanted to do this, to be involved in this music and dance, from free choice, and the passion has you ~ GOD BLESS YOU ALL!!! You are closer to 'tradition' than those that have had it force fed to them... You have chosen to do this, inspired to do it. That is an inspiration and nurture closer to the fire tongs than an exam room... You're not likely to have come to it wanting a wall of medals and trophies, though some of you do treat tunes similarly...
# Posted on January 24th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: CCE Exams: Good thing/Bad thing? Discuss.
Now, having said that ~ yes, I also want some easy introduction for all ~ increased opportunities for others to find and appreciate this thing that has given me and others so much. But, I don't think competitions or this system of exams is the right answer...
A group of us once went in and turned on a load of delinquent teens, in a prison, and some were there for murder, others for prostitution, etc... They had a blast, and so did we. It was fun and we did a lot of laughing, and there were some near tears moments. If we'd gone in there to lecture at them, followed by an exam ~ well, we may have not come out in one piece, or as inspired an enriched by them and the experience as we were, and sad for them in their situation and the circumstances that had lead them there, increased understanding and appreciation we'd also gained in the exchange...
# Posted on January 24th 2008 by ceolachan
= turned on to traditional music and dance!!!
# Posted on January 24th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: CCE Exams: Good thing/Bad thing? Discuss.
"It's just the usual rubbish, people are prepared for an exam like this as any other - in one ear and out the next" - I suppose that this phenomenon applies to virtually all aspects of learning as who remembers everything they're taught? However, what they do absorb will still make their traditional experience infinitely better than just knowing a pile of "gan ainms". One other requirement with these exams where students must present a repertoire list of the tunes they know (the examiner then picks a couple at random for them to play) is also a big plus - kids doing competitions need only 4 or so tunes plus one or two extra in case of a recall.
# Posted on January 24th 2008 by Bannerman
Re: CCE Exams: Good thing/Bad thing? Discuss.
exams in traditional music are now happening in scotland and newcastle,nothing to do with comhaltas.
most people on the English and Scottish folk scene, think they are [overall] a good idea.
Exams like competitions are not the be all and end all,but they have certain uses.
when someonehas passed an exam or won a competition,it shows that they have studied hard and acquired acertain standard of competence[nothing more and nothing less].
providing that is borne in mind,by everyone,What is the problem.
if competitions and exams were abolished,there would be no national fleadh as we now know it.
many children in rural ireland,would have an important social part of their lives removed.
Comhaltas acquires money through examinations and competitions [so what],so does the associated boards of music with classical music examinations.
# Posted on January 24th 2008 by dickens metrognome
Re: CCE Exams: Good thing/Bad thing? Discuss.
Do comhaltas not make enough money from membership fees and government funding (€5,640,000 in 06).
Competitions - yes, they are ok if you choose to enter yourself.
Classes - Fantastic - they offer a place for kids to learn the tunes and the history associated with them and also give kids in rural areas a place to make friends and socialise.
grading - NO NO NO. ther is no need for grading. if you are in a class and are at a level of higher proficiency than your class mates you could be moved to a more advanced class, but giving out labels.. sorry, but that is something I dont agree with.
Comhaltas can still earn money without the creation of 'grades'
As i said in my first reply. 'giving out grades can only serve to provide a ground for snobbery and discrimination'
I cant help but feel that these grades will create a competitive atmosphere in a class, with kids competing to get better results than each other.
A competitive atmosphere should be kept in a competition but in a class where students are learning, the focus should be on helping each other and enjoying the music.
But hey, I'm by no means an expert and thats just my opinion.
# Posted on January 24th 2008 by session savage
Re: CCE Exams: Good thing/Bad thing? Discuss.
I absolutely accept Bannerman, that your hearts in the right place - that you have the future of trad music in mind. Personally, I just not convinced about the method.
Look what has happened to the Gaelige in Ireland - I learnt it in school from age 4 to 18, got a pass in my Leaving. Whilst I have an interest still (amazingly!) in the language, I couldn't conduct a conversation 'as Gaelige' and I'll bet you the vast majority of people who have been through the Irish education system are in the same boat. What turned us off? Why has the language declined despite the State throwing it's weight behind it. Because it was shoved down our throats in a series of utterly boring and meaningless exercises and tests. I was taught how to pass the exam - here are the phrases you can use in any essay. That's the way of it and it makes me angry that 30 years later, my children are now getting the same old guff - lists of phrases and sentences to repeat like a bloody parrot.
Whereas look at Irish trad music - it has survived and even thrived in spite of almost total State neglect. It's only very recently as far as I know, that the Arts Council of Ireland (who dispense monies) even considered ITM as an art form at all.
Why has it thrived where the language has declined? There may be many reasons but among them, is that it is not perceived as boring and dead. It is not perceived in young peoples minds with exams and school. They link it with a bit of craic. It might be easier to kill that than you think.
# Posted on January 24th 2008 by the wounded hussar
Re: CCE Exams: Good thing/Bad thing? Discuss.
"I absolutely accept Bannerman, that your hearts in the right place - that you have the future of trad music in mind. Personally, I just not convinced about the method." ~ the hussar
Yes, I have to agree on those points too. I know that there is 'heart' there. The 'methods', competitions and exams, can also be seen as other opportunities ~ but magnets for what kind of personalities? ~ resulting in what? These methods also hold the same promise as other related systems, opportunities to feel the fool, and as such will at least equally dissuade, repel others... The best thing I saw going that was Comhaltas related were the sessions with classes beforehand, all levels, all instruments, and some group work too. I saw those in the countryside, I saw them in the cities. They were great, as are other aspects of celebrating the tradition associated with the festivals / fleadhs. There too, one of the best things going were the classes that happened the week before the All-Ireland ~ all welcome and participatory and no judging or as I've also heard during adjudication ~ belittling...
# Posted on January 24th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: CCE Exams: Good thing/Bad thing? Discuss.
The nature of an 'exam' or a 'competition' is somehow not the 'open door' I'm mostly familiar with in regards to 'tradition'. They lack the warmth and humour and the full heartefelt welcome...
# Posted on January 24th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: CCE Exams: Good thing/Bad thing? Discuss.
Festivals are where it's at - not exams or competitions!
# Posted on January 24th 2008 by the wounded hussar
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display
Another extension to the discussion ~
# Posted on January 24th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: CCE Exams: Good thing/Bad thing? Discuss.
Well said ~
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/16472/comments#comment341732
# Posted on January 24th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: CCE Exams: Good thing/Bad thing? Discuss.
Competitions, which judge the adjudicator's favourite rather than the "best", are a nonsense. Exams in ITM is an infamita, a sacrilege.
Music is for playing, and even enjoying. Are we to have an 11 plus for music, those that pass are sent to elite music schools and the failures condemned?
Just play, your real friends will let you know how accomplished you are.
# Posted on January 25th 2008 by bodhran bliss