I understand that Comholtas established the first Fleadh in Ireland in 1951. Am I right in thinking that there were no fleadhs, or instrument competitions for Irish music before that?
Also I have heard criticism that the competitions promote a "homogenised" style and have damaged the concept of regional variation. Does anyone have any comments on this?
thanks
chris haigh
There were definitely competitions before 1951 - as far as I know the Oireachtas competitions and feiseanna would have considerably pre-dated Comhaltas. Like it or not I think that competition is part of the human condition and there will always be individuals who want to pit themselves against somebody else. While there are many "fors" and "againsts" - if you've got a couple of free days I'd suggest you do a search here and trawl through the various previous threads on the subject - I think you might then be in a position to make a judgement. From my own point of view I would say that "warts and all" we'd be worse off without them.
Some people take the whole competition thing way too seriously, I agree they can mould musicians into playing a certain style but on the other hand they are great way of encouraging a musician to work on his/hers technique and they always attract great musicians. I know a few people who compete and they never adapt there style for the comp they just go and do there thing!
While getting my master's degree in music, I "switched" to playing old-time fiddle. That meant going to fiddle contests as that is how the artform exists in this part of the country. I wrote about the change to fiddle in my paper, and found some interesting research. Old-time fiddle is not really played at old-time contests. Old-time contests these days are full of Texas contest-style playing. It's what the winning contestants play, what the judges play. if I were to go in with a tune gleaned from recordings of someone who learned the tunes from his father, done truly "old-time," I'd be laughed off the stage. Fiddle clubs around here cater to those doing contests. They rarely play together as a group, like the Irish session.
Contests are crap shoots.
But, on the other hand, I'm starting a new student this week and the mom seems to want some kind of fiddle credential, so the framed Certified Old-Time Fiddle Contest winner certificates, and trophies are on display in my studio, in a corner (reminds me of a neighbor girl that twirled a baton and had all her trophies on display... haha) .
not sure about your neck of the woods, but I suspect that it's similar. When "music competitions" take precedence over the enjoyment of the tunes and playing with others, then it's a sad day, indeed.
I've been in plenty of classical music competitions as a child and I hated them all. It absoltuely ruined the joy of playing music for me for a long time. It turned a joyful expression of my deepest passions into a traumatic and grueling panic-stress-fest, and this is when I did well at them.
But, that's just me. They asked for opinions, I gave one.
Here's another one from the Tao Te Ching:
Chapter 68
The best warriors
do not use violence.
The best generals
do not destroy indiscriminately.
The best tacticians
try to avoid confrontation.
The best leaders
becomes servants of their people.
This is called the virtue of non-competition.
This is called the power to manage others.
This is called attaining harmony with the heavens.
I attended the Mayo fleadh last year.Im a B/C accordion player.I play in the Joe Cooley style music< like a train with great heart in it.There were a few others like this.Because I couldn't play "good" like Joe Burke I and the others didn't get into the top three.The people that came 1st and 2nd were very skilled but I couldn't shed the feeling that they won because they played in the style of Joe Burke.Rolls and sub-octave reeds aren't for me.
The heart of this music isn't in the high end playing of elite competition winners, or professional players for that matter, its in the sharing of mistakes. Some of the best variations are misinterpretations.
Re: Comhaltas, and others and their competitions ~ opinions?
"The people that came 1st and 2nd were very skilled ~" ~ and probably had 'connections'...
I'm speechless, aside from moaning lately about the pain in my back, but you have all said it already ~ llig & SWFL and the rest of you... That at least gives away my bias...as if I needed to...
I don't have a problem with recognizing accomplishment and effort and gained understanding, but not in setting it up 1st, 2nd and 3rd. So honour them, give them an award of recognition, but don't force a choice between one aspect of tradition and another, it will always end up being unfair, biased, coloured, corrupted... I'd rather see a chicken fight with blood and feathers flying...or...race snails...or...watch plaster drying... It's just sooooo tweeee and pompous and petty...
Sorry, I guess the moan took the form of words and I wasn't as speechless as I'd thought...
I'd be the last one to say that the fleadh is the be-all and end-all of traditional musicianship, but competitions really aren't as bad as everyone seems to be suggesting. It's just important to keep it all in perspective. Here are some good things about the fleadh:
1) It promotes traditional musicianship over fads and fusions. CCE can say "we prefer XXX over YYY", and it matters. Kids will know that nice ornamentation is encouraged, and "bluegrassing" is discouraged. Then, when they grow up having learned a taste for traditional music, they are (ostensibly) more likely to maintain their tastes. (And thank heavens! Have you *heard* what kids listen to these days?)
2) It gives kids a reason to practice, and to try to get better. Knowing that your rolls need work is one thing. Knowing that they need work before late spring, when you'll be competing with your peers in front of a roomful of skeptical musicians is another motivation in itself! In the end, students see their peers get recognition and admiration, and they are inspired to follow suit. Then, when they get older, they will be able to use those skills to play their own music. It doesn't work for everybody (and if it doesn't, you shouldn't compete), but it does work for some people.
3) On that note, it's also (arguably) good for performance anxiety. Once you've played in a competition, judged by someone like Brendan McGlinchey (bless his cotton socks), regular performances are comparatively EASY.
3) Of course, having won a fleadh is something that gives you added credibility for those who are in no position to judge otherwise. Few aspiring pros would dispute that it's easier to get gigs if you've won the all-Ireland. If you have any doubt, look at the dozens of great musicians got their foots in the proverbial door by winning the fleadh (Liz Carroll, Zoe Conway, Oisin MacDiarmada, Liz Kane... the list goes on). In the end, winning the all-Ireland singles people out from the pack--which, if you are an aspiring performer, is a Good Thing. I remember hearing an interview with the US national poetry slam winner. He was asked if he didn't think competion and poetry were opposed to one another, and his answer was (in essence) "No. Every professional artist is always competing with other professional artists. People have to choose whether to go to your reading, or the other guys'. Poetry-slams are just more overt about competing." (also keep in mind that winning the poetry slam allowed this fellow to read his work to millions of people on National Public Radio).
But in the end, fleadhs are mainly for kids and students. Competing inspires them to work harder, and perhaps work on different things. By the time they grow up musically, they are best off not bothering with the competitions.
As a last note, in my limited experience with fleadhs, I have never heard someone win who was not a good musician. They weren't always the BEST musician, but they were all GOOD. Fair play to them.
Couldn't have been put better Georgi - you've highlighted most of the reasons why competitions are still around after all these years in spite of the negatives. I'd also strongly support your suggestion that they are only appropriate for kids and students who are developing their musical skills (maybe someone will submit a resolution to the next Comhaltas Congress to abolish Senior competitions) as the thought of Martin Hayes competing with Kevin Burke or Jackie Daly with Mairtín O'Connor does seem a bit ludicrous!
That's assuming, in part, that 'rolls' come in one form and are the be-all and end-all... It also assumes that none of those positives can exist without 'competition'... Somehow I just don't believe that... That is akin to saying the only Irish dance is by little girls in ringlets and guadily ornate mini-skirts kicking their backsides... Please, don't say it's so...
Re: Comhaltas, and others and their competitions ~ options?
Come on then, let's get constructive ~ what are the other possibilities? Why accept something and maintain it just because it is? Should we go back to trepanning to cure headaches and lobotamies for percieved mental disorders or as an option to prison?
Funnily enough Ceolachan, our two daughters were going to Irish dance classes a few years ago (in tracksuits) and that was grand for a while. Then the teacher suggested shows and feiseanna etc., we went to one or two and rapidly withdrew from the scene. So we thinks, we'll get them involved in the music 'cos that's more about co-operation and sharing, none of this competition nonsense!!!!
I would largely agree with Georgi on this one. Some of my pupils go in for fleadhs and other competitions and it can be a great motivation to practice and improve, and to get used to playing in public.(I never push kids to enter if they don't want to, it doesn't suit everybody.)
It undoubtedly also true that winning an all Ireland can help an aspiring pro, however there is a downside to this in that other equally good musicians who were not so much to the judges taste, and didn't win, don't get this same push. But then nothing is ever completely fair or perfect in this world.
Martin Hayes has certainly come up against players such as Eileen Ivers and Sean Smyth in competition. Some of the lists of competitors at All-Ireland Fleadhs are like a who's-who of anyone's CD collection. I'll post you some examples tomorrow.
But it's often said, and is true, that for all of these "names" who make recordings, there are always several players just as good, and sometimes better, who don't go on to record, and unfortunately, their music doesn't get to be as appreciated.
In 1977 in Ennis, in the Senior Flute competition, Mick Gavin had a play-off for 2nd place with Michael Flatley. The winner was a player from Birmingham called Patsy Moloney. How many have heard of him ? - or even Mick Gavin, come to that, although Mick did record, and I've been championing his playing for 30 years.
So I gather from the posts above that what wyogal says happened to "old time fiddling" contests- that to win you have to play in a non-old-time style, did not happen in the Irish competition scene.
If the Irish judges are holding up genuine traditional playing as their model, then competition won't discourage traditional-style players.
I'm coming at the issue from a different angle, that of the Scottish pipe band scene, where it's all about competition.
There are a small number of people who complain that this emphasis on winning competitions stifles innovation and creativity. However the most innovation, creativity, and musicality invariably comes from the very top competition bands. It's the bands that don't compete who play old stale tunes in boring arrangements and play them poorly.
Thanks for the tip MacCruiskeen, here's a neat quote from Mr. Ernest Gellner thay may be dear to our hearts:
"I am deeply sensitive to the spell of nationalism. I can play about thirty Bohemian folk songs ... on my mouth-organ. My oldest friend, who is Czech and a patriot, cannot bear to hear me play them because he says I do it in such a schmalzy way, 'crying into the mouth organ'. I do not think I could have written the book on nationalism which I did write, were I not capable of crying, with the help of a little alcohol, over folk songs, which happen to be my favourite form of music."
I guess the thing about competitions is that it's really not representative at all of how young people will go onto to enjoy the music and their abilities for the remainder of their lives.
For example, do we all, as adults, enjoying playing the music, gather to have competitions constantly? Is every time we play a competition? "Hey friend, wanna go play some tunes and see who's better?" Of course not. The best and most wonderful musical times for us is when we are gathered in a spirit of brotherhood and cooperation, not competition.
I know festivals also provide a chance for kids to experience those best times as well, I just get concerned that the stress of competition may interfere with the enjoyment of the music.
I have to agree with ‘c’ that practically all of the real benefits could be derived without the winner/loser competitive structure. And I don’t see giving recording companies an easy “objective” method for choosing “talent” to provide “content” as particularly beneficial to the tradition.
Liz Carroll, Liz Kane, Seamus Egan, Eileen Ivers and several other contest winners sound to me like competition players. That doesn’t mean I haven’t enjoyed their playing, but I don’t find myself returning repeatedly to their recordings for nourishment.
Ah yes, the ol' "whose is bigger?" session, always a relaxing, sociable and enjoyable time for all! [/sarcasm]
You know what's always amused me about that? Normally that sort of mental state is reserved for bullying athletes, not bohemian musician types. Ah well...
comhaltas will continue despite anything that is said here.
In particular in rural Ireland,Comhaltas and the GAA,do a good job providing competitions and examinations,forchildren.
without them there would be precious little for children to do.
there is much wrong with Comhaltas[and some of the people involved]but overall there presence [imo]is a plus.
for example in England they are the only organisation providing teachers,unlike the EFDSS.
I think theComhaltas move to provide examinations is a progressive one.
finally lets remember without the Comhaltas Fleadhs[especially the national one]we would have to find another reason for all meeting up and enjoying music,thousands of musicians get together at the national fleadh and make music purely for pleasure,regardless of the competitions.
I think competitions can be disastrous for many young players. The first thing some bright young musical enthusiasts experience when they’re able to play a little is being compared in public to other young kids and being deemed inadequate. I think the mentality that encourages competitions in traditional Irish music is something similar to the mentality of the sports fanatic who forces his kids into every sport going and drags them around to compete against other kids. Many people I know grew out of competitions once they were old enough and just stopped going, others just associate music with competitiveness and failure and have abandoned playing completely.
I had the good fortune to grow up in a musical family who had nothing to do with competitions, or with pub sessions for that matter. The worst thing that I was made do was play a tune for my relatives when they visited. Why shouldn’t the Fleadh Ceoil just be a place where everyone can go and play and listen to music? Why sully the music with this low, sport-like competitiveness?
Of course the Donegal style was often disparaged by the Comhaltas machine and most players in Donegal who ever had dealings with Comhaltas left decades ago in order to stop the rot and to preserve a tradition which was in danger and which they were being told was not genuinely Irish. Still in Donegal, Comhaltas is seen by many as ‘Irish-music-lite’ – the same in every noisy bar from London to Limerick to San Francisco. Things are changing I hear but the dumbing down of traditional music is still going on as far as I’m concerned.
In classical music competitions are the standard way for a musician to make his or her name on the professional scene after graduating from the conservatory. Most don’t like this idea, but it’s how the marketplace of professional classical music seems to be, at least for the present.
Irish music is a wonderfully rich, complex and profound musical tradition, as worthy of sincere admiration and of scholarly attention as any other of the great North-European musical traditions. And I can’t help but feel that it is cheapened by having some pushy oaf with a bare grasp of its real value grade young people on their musical ability.
(By the way Chris, you’re not by any chance Chris Haigh the great Paris Hot Club Style Jazz Fiddler are you? Just wondering.)
Senior Flute 1977 in Ennis :
1st - Patsy Moloney
2nd - Michael Harty
3rd equal - can't remember who won the play-off between
Mick Gavin & Michael Flatley
not placed, or didn't show up includes :
Kevin Henry,Leon Agnew,Peg McGrath
Senior Fiddle 1977 in Ennis :
1st - Maurice Lennon
don't have places but other competitors included :
Deirdre Shannon,Jim McKillop,Eileen O'Brien,Brendan Mulvihill and Denis Ryan [ I think he was 3rd ].
Now who among you is going to tell anyone from that lot they were wrong to enter competitions ?
Comholtas and competitions- opinions?
Comholtas and competitions- opinions?
I understand that Comholtas established the first Fleadh in Ireland in 1951. Am I right in thinking that there were no fleadhs, or instrument competitions for Irish music before that?
Also I have heard criticism that the competitions promote a "homogenised" style and have damaged the concept of regional variation. Does anyone have any comments on this?
thanks
chris haigh
# Posted on January 22nd 2008 by Chris Haigh
Re: Comholtas and competitions- opinions?
The phrase "music competition" is just about as good an example of an oxymoron you could ever hope to come accross
# Posted on January 22nd 2008 by ...
Re: Comholtas and competitions- opinions?
AMEN!
(www.wikipedia.org)
"Music is an art form consisting of sound and silence."
"Competition is the rivalry of two or more parties over something."
Ya wanna make art or ya wanna fight about it? I think I'd rather make art and have a good time. Thanks anyway though.
# Posted on January 22nd 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Comholtas and competitions- opinions?
There were definitely competitions before 1951 - as far as I know the Oireachtas competitions and feiseanna would have considerably pre-dated Comhaltas. Like it or not I think that competition is part of the human condition and there will always be individuals who want to pit themselves against somebody else. While there are many "fors" and "againsts" - if you've got a couple of free days I'd suggest you do a search here and trawl through the various previous threads on the subject - I think you might then be in a position to make a judgement. From my own point of view I would say that "warts and all" we'd be worse off without them.
# Posted on January 22nd 2008 by Bannerman
Re: Comholtas and competitions- opinions?
Some people take the whole competition thing way too seriously, I agree they can mould musicians into playing a certain style but on the other hand they are great way of encouraging a musician to work on his/hers technique and they always attract great musicians. I know a few people who compete and they never adapt there style for the comp they just go and do there thing!
# Posted on January 22nd 2008 by Button Box
Re: Comholtas and competitions- opinions?
While getting my master's degree in music, I "switched" to playing old-time fiddle. That meant going to fiddle contests as that is how the artform exists in this part of the country. I wrote about the change to fiddle in my paper, and found some interesting research. Old-time fiddle is not really played at old-time contests. Old-time contests these days are full of Texas contest-style playing. It's what the winning contestants play, what the judges play. if I were to go in with a tune gleaned from recordings of someone who learned the tunes from his father, done truly "old-time," I'd be laughed off the stage. Fiddle clubs around here cater to those doing contests. They rarely play together as a group, like the Irish session.
Contests are crap shoots.
But, on the other hand, I'm starting a new student this week and the mom seems to want some kind of fiddle credential, so the framed Certified Old-Time Fiddle Contest winner certificates, and trophies are on display in my studio, in a corner (reminds me of a neighbor girl that twirled a baton and had all her trophies on display... haha) .
not sure about your neck of the woods, but I suspect that it's similar. When "music competitions" take precedence over the enjoyment of the tunes and playing with others, then it's a sad day, indeed.
# Posted on January 22nd 2008 by Wyogal
Re: Comholtas and competitions- opinions?
I've been in plenty of classical music competitions as a child and I hated them all. It absoltuely ruined the joy of playing music for me for a long time. It turned a joyful expression of my deepest passions into a traumatic and grueling panic-stress-fest, and this is when I did well at them.
But, that's just me. They asked for opinions, I gave one.
Here's another one from the Tao Te Ching:
Chapter 68
The best warriors
do not use violence.
The best generals
do not destroy indiscriminately.
The best tacticians
try to avoid confrontation.
The best leaders
becomes servants of their people.
This is called the virtue of non-competition.
This is called the power to manage others.
This is called attaining harmony with the heavens.
# Posted on January 22nd 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Comholtas and competitions- opinions?
I attended the Mayo fleadh last year.Im a B/C accordion player.I play in the Joe Cooley style music< like a train with great heart in it.There were a few others like this.Because I couldn't play "good" like Joe Burke I and the others didn't get into the top three.The people that came 1st and 2nd were very skilled but I couldn't shed the feeling that they won because they played in the style of Joe Burke.Rolls and sub-octave reeds aren't for me.
# Posted on January 22nd 2008 by dinn2
Re: Comholtas and competitions- opinions?
The heart of this music isn't in the high end playing of elite competition winners, or professional players for that matter, its in the sharing of mistakes. Some of the best variations are misinterpretations.
# Posted on January 22nd 2008 by Backer
Re: Comholtas and competitions- opinions?
In response to SWFL Fiddler, here's historian Ernest Gellner's take on the fundamental nature of agrarian society:
1) who owns the land?
2) who has the power?
3) how shall we worship our god(s)?
Such an analysis can equally be applied to the mind-set of CCÉ.
# Posted on January 22nd 2008 by MacCruiskeen
Re: Comhaltas, and others and their competitions ~ opinions?
"The people that came 1st and 2nd were very skilled ~" ~ and probably had 'connections'...
I'm speechless, aside from moaning lately about the pain in my back, but you have all said it already ~ llig & SWFL and the rest of you... That at least gives away my bias...as if I needed to...
I don't have a problem with recognizing accomplishment and effort and gained understanding, but not in setting it up 1st, 2nd and 3rd. So honour them, give them an award of recognition, but don't force a choice between one aspect of tradition and another, it will always end up being unfair, biased, coloured, corrupted... I'd rather see a chicken fight with blood and feathers flying...or...race snails...or...watch plaster drying... It's just sooooo tweeee and pompous and petty...
Sorry, I guess the moan took the form of words and I wasn't as speechless as I'd thought...
# Posted on January 23rd 2008 by ceolachan
Re: Comholtas and competitions- opinions?
Hrm.
I'd be the last one to say that the fleadh is the be-all and end-all of traditional musicianship, but competitions really aren't as bad as everyone seems to be suggesting. It's just important to keep it all in perspective. Here are some good things about the fleadh:
1) It promotes traditional musicianship over fads and fusions. CCE can say "we prefer XXX over YYY", and it matters. Kids will know that nice ornamentation is encouraged, and "bluegrassing" is discouraged. Then, when they grow up having learned a taste for traditional music, they are (ostensibly) more likely to maintain their tastes. (And thank heavens! Have you *heard* what kids listen to these days?)
2) It gives kids a reason to practice, and to try to get better. Knowing that your rolls need work is one thing. Knowing that they need work before late spring, when you'll be competing with your peers in front of a roomful of skeptical musicians is another motivation in itself! In the end, students see their peers get recognition and admiration, and they are inspired to follow suit. Then, when they get older, they will be able to use those skills to play their own music. It doesn't work for everybody (and if it doesn't, you shouldn't compete), but it does work for some people.
3) On that note, it's also (arguably) good for performance anxiety. Once you've played in a competition, judged by someone like Brendan McGlinchey (bless his cotton socks), regular performances are comparatively EASY.
3) Of course, having won a fleadh is something that gives you added credibility for those who are in no position to judge otherwise. Few aspiring pros would dispute that it's easier to get gigs if you've won the all-Ireland. If you have any doubt, look at the dozens of great musicians got their foots in the proverbial door by winning the fleadh (Liz Carroll, Zoe Conway, Oisin MacDiarmada, Liz Kane... the list goes on). In the end, winning the all-Ireland singles people out from the pack--which, if you are an aspiring performer, is a Good Thing. I remember hearing an interview with the US national poetry slam winner. He was asked if he didn't think competion and poetry were opposed to one another, and his answer was (in essence) "No. Every professional artist is always competing with other professional artists. People have to choose whether to go to your reading, or the other guys'. Poetry-slams are just more overt about competing." (also keep in mind that winning the poetry slam allowed this fellow to read his work to millions of people on National Public Radio).
But in the end, fleadhs are mainly for kids and students. Competing inspires them to work harder, and perhaps work on different things. By the time they grow up musically, they are best off not bothering with the competitions.
As a last note, in my limited experience with fleadhs, I have never heard someone win who was not a good musician. They weren't always the BEST musician, but they were all GOOD. Fair play to them.
# Posted on January 23rd 2008 by Georgi
Re: Comholtas and competitions- opinions?
Well said Georgi.Long live The Fleadh.
Don,t forget Tullamore this year.
# Posted on January 23rd 2008 by gooseinthenettles
Re: Comholtas and competitions- opinions?
Couldn't have been put better Georgi - you've highlighted most of the reasons why competitions are still around after all these years in spite of the negatives. I'd also strongly support your suggestion that they are only appropriate for kids and students who are developing their musical skills (maybe someone will submit a resolution to the next Comhaltas Congress to abolish Senior competitions) as the thought of Martin Hayes competing with Kevin Burke or Jackie Daly with Mairtín O'Connor does seem a bit ludicrous!
# Posted on January 23rd 2008 by Bannerman
Re: Comholtas and competitions- opinions?
That's assuming, in part, that 'rolls' come in one form and are the be-all and end-all... It also assumes that none of those positives can exist without 'competition'... Somehow I just don't believe that... That is akin to saying the only Irish dance is by little girls in ringlets and guadily ornate mini-skirts kicking their backsides... Please, don't say it's so...
# Posted on January 23rd 2008 by ceolachan
Re: Comhaltas, and others and their competitions ~ options?
Come on then, let's get constructive ~ what are the other possibilities? Why accept something and maintain it just because it is? Should we go back to trepanning to cure headaches and lobotamies for percieved mental disorders or as an option to prison?
# Posted on January 23rd 2008 by ceolachan
Re: Comholtas and competitions- opinions?
Hey - 'the thought of Martin Hayes competing with Kevin Burke or Jackie Daly with Mairtín O'Connor does seem a bit ludicrous'??
Why on earth not? - surely what's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. Or maybe there'd be too many egos at stake!
# Posted on January 23rd 2008 by the wounded hussar
Re: Comholtas and competitions- opinions?
Funnily enough Ceolachan, our two daughters were going to Irish dance classes a few years ago (in tracksuits) and that was grand for a while. Then the teacher suggested shows and feiseanna etc., we went to one or two and rapidly withdrew from the scene. So we thinks, we'll get them involved in the music 'cos that's more about co-operation and sharing, none of this competition nonsense!!!!
# Posted on January 23rd 2008 by the wounded hussar
Re: Comholtas and competitions- opinions?
I would largely agree with Georgi on this one. Some of my pupils go in for fleadhs and other competitions and it can be a great motivation to practice and improve, and to get used to playing in public.(I never push kids to enter if they don't want to, it doesn't suit everybody.)
It undoubtedly also true that winning an all Ireland can help an aspiring pro, however there is a downside to this in that other equally good musicians who were not so much to the judges taste, and didn't win, don't get this same push. But then nothing is ever completely fair or perfect in this world.
# Posted on January 23rd 2008 by cathycook
Re: Comholtas and competitions- opinions?
Martin Hayes has certainly come up against players such as Eileen Ivers and Sean Smyth in competition. Some of the lists of competitors at All-Ireland Fleadhs are like a who's-who of anyone's CD collection. I'll post you some examples tomorrow.
But it's often said, and is true, that for all of these "names" who make recordings, there are always several players just as good, and sometimes better, who don't go on to record, and unfortunately, their music doesn't get to be as appreciated.
In 1977 in Ennis, in the Senior Flute competition, Mick Gavin had a play-off for 2nd place with Michael Flatley. The winner was a player from Birmingham called Patsy Moloney. How many have heard of him ? - or even Mick Gavin, come to that, although Mick did record, and I've been championing his playing for 30 years.
# Posted on January 23rd 2008 by Kenny
Re: Comholtas and competitions- opinions?
So I gather from the posts above that what wyogal says happened to "old time fiddling" contests- that to win you have to play in a non-old-time style, did not happen in the Irish competition scene.
If the Irish judges are holding up genuine traditional playing as their model, then competition won't discourage traditional-style players.
I'm coming at the issue from a different angle, that of the Scottish pipe band scene, where it's all about competition.
There are a small number of people who complain that this emphasis on winning competitions stifles innovation and creativity. However the most innovation, creativity, and musicality invariably comes from the very top competition bands. It's the bands that don't compete who play old stale tunes in boring arrangements and play them poorly.
# Posted on January 23rd 2008 by Richard D Cook
Re: Comholtas and competitions- opinions?
"Music is an art form consisting of sound and silence."
There you have it! By definition, bagpipe playing is not music.
# Posted on January 23rd 2008 by Richard D Cook
Re: Comholtas and competitions- opinions?
I've heard of Mick Gavin and Patsy Moloney ... but who the heck is that other guy?
# Posted on January 23rd 2008 by Just a person
Re: Comholtas and competitions- opinions?
Thanks for the tip MacCruiskeen, here's a neat quote from Mr. Ernest Gellner thay may be dear to our hearts:
"I am deeply sensitive to the spell of nationalism. I can play about thirty Bohemian folk songs ... on my mouth-organ. My oldest friend, who is Czech and a patriot, cannot bear to hear me play them because he says I do it in such a schmalzy way, 'crying into the mouth organ'. I do not think I could have written the book on nationalism which I did write, were I not capable of crying, with the help of a little alcohol, over folk songs, which happen to be my favourite form of music."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ernest_Gellner#Quotations_from_Gellner
I guess the thing about competitions is that it's really not representative at all of how young people will go onto to enjoy the music and their abilities for the remainder of their lives.
For example, do we all, as adults, enjoying playing the music, gather to have competitions constantly? Is every time we play a competition? "Hey friend, wanna go play some tunes and see who's better?" Of course not. The best and most wonderful musical times for us is when we are gathered in a spirit of brotherhood and cooperation, not competition.
I know festivals also provide a chance for kids to experience those best times as well, I just get concerned that the stress of competition may interfere with the enjoyment of the music.
# Posted on January 23rd 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Comholtas and competitions- opinions?
I have to agree with ‘c’ that practically all of the real benefits could be derived without the winner/loser competitive structure. And I don’t see giving recording companies an easy “objective” method for choosing “talent” to provide “content” as particularly beneficial to the tradition.
Liz Carroll, Liz Kane, Seamus Egan, Eileen Ivers and several other contest winners sound to me like competition players. That doesn’t mean I haven’t enjoyed their playing, but I don’t find myself returning repeatedly to their recordings for nourishment.
# Posted on January 23rd 2008 by Bob himself
Re: Comholtas and competitions- opinions?
"Hey friend, wanna go play some tunes and see who's better?" ~ I have been to such sessions...
# Posted on January 23rd 2008 by ceolachan
Re: Comhoaltas and competitions - options?
Discussion: CCE Exams: Good thing/Bad thing? Discuss.
# Posted on January 23rd 2008 by jfiddlerh
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/16482
Making connections...related threads!?
# Posted on January 23rd 2008 by ceolachan
Re: Comholtas and competitions- opinions?
Ah yes, the ol' "whose is bigger?" session, always a relaxing, sociable and enjoyable time for all! [/sarcasm]
You know what's always amused me about that? Normally that sort of mental state is reserved for bullying athletes, not bohemian musician types. Ah well...
Well linked c!
# Posted on January 23rd 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Comholtas and competitions- opinions?
comhaltas will continue despite anything that is said here.
In particular in rural Ireland,Comhaltas and the GAA,do a good job providing competitions and examinations,forchildren.
without them there would be precious little for children to do.
there is much wrong with Comhaltas[and some of the people involved]but overall there presence [imo]is a plus.
for example in England they are the only organisation providing teachers,unlike the EFDSS.
I think theComhaltas move to provide examinations is a progressive one.
finally lets remember without the Comhaltas Fleadhs[especially the national one]we would have to find another reason for all meeting up and enjoying music,thousands of musicians get together at the national fleadh and make music purely for pleasure,regardless of the competitions.
# Posted on January 23rd 2008 by Dick Miles
Re: Comholtas and competitions- opinions?
I think competitions can be disastrous for many young players. The first thing some bright young musical enthusiasts experience when they’re able to play a little is being compared in public to other young kids and being deemed inadequate. I think the mentality that encourages competitions in traditional Irish music is something similar to the mentality of the sports fanatic who forces his kids into every sport going and drags them around to compete against other kids. Many people I know grew out of competitions once they were old enough and just stopped going, others just associate music with competitiveness and failure and have abandoned playing completely.
I had the good fortune to grow up in a musical family who had nothing to do with competitions, or with pub sessions for that matter. The worst thing that I was made do was play a tune for my relatives when they visited. Why shouldn’t the Fleadh Ceoil just be a place where everyone can go and play and listen to music? Why sully the music with this low, sport-like competitiveness?
Of course the Donegal style was often disparaged by the Comhaltas machine and most players in Donegal who ever had dealings with Comhaltas left decades ago in order to stop the rot and to preserve a tradition which was in danger and which they were being told was not genuinely Irish. Still in Donegal, Comhaltas is seen by many as ‘Irish-music-lite’ – the same in every noisy bar from London to Limerick to San Francisco. Things are changing I hear but the dumbing down of traditional music is still going on as far as I’m concerned.
In classical music competitions are the standard way for a musician to make his or her name on the professional scene after graduating from the conservatory. Most don’t like this idea, but it’s how the marketplace of professional classical music seems to be, at least for the present.
Irish music is a wonderfully rich, complex and profound musical tradition, as worthy of sincere admiration and of scholarly attention as any other of the great North-European musical traditions. And I can’t help but feel that it is cheapened by having some pushy oaf with a bare grasp of its real value grade young people on their musical ability.
(By the way Chris, you’re not by any chance Chris Haigh the great Paris Hot Club Style Jazz Fiddler are you? Just wondering.)
# Posted on January 24th 2008 by dsndfkjasf
Re: Comholtas and competitions- opinions?
Festivals are where it's at - not exams or competitions!
# Posted on January 24th 2008 by the wounded hussar
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display
~ further on the discussions with regards to competitions & exams...
# Posted on January 24th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: Comholtas and competitions- opinions?
Senior Flute 1977 in Ennis :
1st - Patsy Moloney
2nd - Michael Harty
3rd equal - can't remember who won the play-off between
Mick Gavin & Michael Flatley
not placed, or didn't show up includes :
Kevin Henry,Leon Agnew,Peg McGrath
Senior Fiddle 1977 in Ennis :
1st - Maurice Lennon
don't have places but other competitors included :
Deirdre Shannon,Jim McKillop,Eileen O'Brien,Brendan Mulvihill and Denis Ryan [ I think he was 3rd ].
Now who among you is going to tell anyone from that lot they were wrong to enter competitions ?
# Posted on January 24th 2008 by Kenny
Re: Comholtas and competitions- opinions?
Me!
# Posted on January 25th 2008 by dsndfkjasf
Re: Comholtas and competitions- opinions?
A 'play-off between Mick Gavin and Michael Flatley'? Was that an example of Boehm or bust?
# Posted on January 25th 2008 by MacCruiskeen
Re: Comholtas and competitions- opinions?
Nobody was playing Boehm system flutes.
# Posted on January 25th 2008 by Kenny
Re: Comholtas and competitions- opinions?
How do you know?
# Posted on January 26th 2008 by MacCruiskeen
Re: Comholtas and competitions- opinions?
I was there in the audience.
# Posted on January 28th 2008 by Kenny
Re: Comholtas and competitions- opinions?
And neither was I.
# Posted on January 28th 2008 by MacCruiskeen