Savarez extra high tension , yellow label, or high,pink label. An interesting variation is the wound nylon on nylon top EB and G in the pink label. I think the have an R in the product code not the standard J. go to their website for more info. The best strings bar none.
The answer to the question “What kind of strings should I use?” is always “Try different sets until you find what works for you and your instrument”. There are just too many variables to give a reliable universal answer.
Although, not to be too discouraging, the usual answer would start with "steel ones". Nylon string guitars and plectra don't usually combine very well, and the limited dynamic range of a strummed nylon-string (generally going from extremely quiet to moderately quiet, relative to session volume) means that you're going to avoid a lot of the usual rubbish handed out to guitar players at sessions, because nobody will be able to hear you to complain - although some will anyway, by reflex.
Is there a particular reason you want to play a nylon string instrument in this context?
Some people can make it work pretty well - John McLaughlin, for example - but he plays jazzish stuff. I suspect accompanying ITM on nylon strings would require more right hand skill than with steel strings. And the right choice of plectrum. I'd be interested in hearing how it works.
I suppose I was thinking more in the terms of an accompaniment role, and unamplified. Typically, when you strike a nylon-strung guitar with a pick, you're going to get a trebly mush of sound, with nothing like the defined chord you expect from a steel-string. This is inherent in the instrument, a consequence partly of the lighter bracing and mostly of the lower tension, and not really something that you can get around with technique. Basically, a certain degree of force will produce volume, beyond that, you're going to get something a lot like "clipping" in an amplification chain: you're putting more signal in than the channel can handle, so it lops off the excess. You might get some luck by tuning up perhaps a whole step to inrease the tension (risking trouble with the bridge and face). You might minimize the problem by using a super-light pick and almost no right-hand grip - the idea being to minimize the displacement of the string on the strum, and thereby avoid the clipping effect.
Probably your best bet, if you're committed to a nylon-string sound in trad, would be to look to the flamenco players. There are certainly some techniques that you could adapt to trad, although you'll probably get some funny looks, and they certainly know something about getting volume out of a nylon string guitar, and about accompaniment.
Mr. Himself is exactly right in that right hand skill will be paramount, and I would add the main element of that skill will be restraint. Good luck - and while I think it's not going to work, I'd love to have you prove me wrong. It's much more interesting than having the limitations of the world confirmed.
I've recently been amusing myself by playing folk tunes on a nylon strung guitar in various tunings.It doesn't seem to work with a plectrum,so I use my fingers.I don't mean that I fingerpick the tune with full accompaniment,partial chords and all that.I just play the tune wth my first two fingers and thumb.
Steve Cooney and Jim Murray use high tension, i prefer normal tension myself for a warmer tone, obviously jon has only heard inferior quality nylon strung guitars, cos i have no problem with volume in sessions, takamines make decent spanish/classical guitars
Too quiet? complete opposite of my experiance.. A Spanish guitar strummed with a pick, 1mm nylon blows steelies out of the water. I can back a highland piper. I can back large sessions, A bunch box players, no problem, Admittedly good technique is important, letting the instrument ring , a good guitar also of course helps. but lack of volume, clipping? not at all, a single strum , let it ring, will disperse any illusions as to lack of volume.
In fact I find small sessions cramp my style, I cant use the full dynamic range without unbalancing the whole session sound.
I class Nylon strung guitars in three catagories; Rhythm, lead, and dual purpose. Its essential to get the right guitar for your style/ projected use.
Yeah, my classical guitar is very loud. But Jon's right that a loud strum on nylon strings can sound mushy. And Jig is right that some nylon strung guitars are better suited for strumming. Back in my teenage folkie days, we used to strum on nylon strings, but the guitars we had were weak-voiced and would've been lame as classical instruments.
Actually, I was thinking about John McLaughlin's backup playing when he plays with other melody instruments. He's able to control it and get a satisfying sound. I find it pretty darn hard to do with a real classical guitar.
Tico was the one tune I learnt in my jazz guitar lessons! the rest was beyond me, but tico is a tune. I could handle that......
Funny My Old Spanish looked like Steve's, not such a big hole on the bottom half but another hole at the top too. I never saw it before or since . Any one else seen a Spanish guitar like that?
my mate has the same takamine nylon as jim murray, great guitar, sounds great plugged in as well! only prob is its not very loud in sessions, not awfully quite, but certainly not the same volume a steel string, i also heard jim murray in a session once, same problem, not enough volume for a session of more than 6 people. grand for smaller quiter sessions.
i just watched thos videos of, cooney, byrne, gavin, hession!! brilliant!! cant stop watching them!! where and when was it recorded anyone know?? sooo wish there was a cd of that!!!
Well, I dont know about that guitar, but I can assure you I have no problem with lack of volume! Steel string guitars are totally different beasts. I cant play them, the strings just break all the time. perhaps its because i use Spanish guitar techniques? perhaps people have a problem with volume on a nylon because they try to play it like a steely?
I just joined up after I found this discussion because I was searching for an answer to a somewhat related question, with a bizarre twist to it. I am wondering about pick/plectrum versus fingers for a double course instrument. I just recently converted a classical guitar to a mandocello: http://www.mandolincafe.net/cgi-bin/ikonboard.cgi?s=95836d454e0d926b793adc8203bf384c;act=ST;f=15;t=50795
and I am thinking of taking it to sessions. I had heard somewhere that using a pick/plectrum on would nylon would decrease its lifespan dramatically. I don't know if thatis true or just something anal classical guitar players like everyone to think. I have been mostlyplaying with fingers so far, but I can definitely get a better double course sound with a pick. I think it has to do with the pick moving through the strings while a finger pulls and releases.
Well I mostly use a pick and have no issues with wearing strings out with the right hand. They will go at the left. A Heavy hand could break strings, but with my recommendation above With the Saveraz yellow and pink label ... no prob.
They make strings for all kinds of instruments.. ie lutes etc. incredible range.
I have tried most strings I would say over the last 30 yrs and these stand clear above all the competition.
lovely job by the way! looks great.
Why not tune it EADG? The E anD would be right the others lower.......
When you say EADG, I assume you mean in string number order (what is often referred to as GDAE in pitch order) like an octave mandolin or Irish tenor banjo?
I considered that and may still try it, but I was really enamored with the sound of the mandocello and wanted to try one. I do like the sound I am getting. The low C strings are settling slower than the rest, but they are settling. The piano like low D double stop in cello tuning almost intrudes into the bass space, but that's assuming you have a bass playing. The other instruments I currently place are the mandolin and electric bass, with far more time spent on mandolin. I want an instrument a 5th below it (I am afraid to name it, depending on which side of the Atlantic and/or Channel you are on ) and one an octave below it at some point, but right now I just wanted a cello tuned instrument.
I wouldn’t worry about wearing out the strings with a plectrum. That’s nonsense. I would have some concern, though, about the tension on the neck and bridge from the extra strings and from picking a double course, but if you’re into lutherie, you’ve probably already weighed that factor.
Classical strings are available in a good range of gauges and all of the brands are pretty well made today. Savarez used to make wound (nylon-on-nylon) 2nd and 3rd strings that would probably have a brighter, clearer sound for your application. I have no idea if they're still made.
They do bob, No 522 R is the normal B, 528R is the wound B.
There are still junk strings out there, name no names.....
Yes arbarnhart I do. Would the Cello not be a single bass? After all the 'bass' sounds an octave lower than it is written. ......
I have a 3/4 cello tuned EADG. It has the same string length as Spanish guitar, and 19fret banjo.
Cello is octave and a 5th below the mandolin. Viola /mandola is a fifth lower. tenor banjo and my piccalo cello/tenor fiddle is an octave lower.
I am curious how high I could tune my 17fret banjo, sure F#BEA,[1 tone] but even up to a Viola pitch.?......
I
Okay, I guess junk is always available. But the choice and quality available today compared to forty-three years ago, when I started buying classical strings, is impressive.
There are steel strings available for classical guitar. I tried some and was not impressed, but they might be worth trying on abarnhart’s instrument.
I used Zaya-Ruzo strings and I checked the tension on their calculator. I don't remember the exact numbers, but the 8 strings I have have more total tension than a standard classical guitar set at normal tension but less than one that has high tension bass strings and much less than one that has X high tension bass strings. The tension is one reason I went with the CC strings at pretty low tension.
"Mandola" was what I was going to refer to as a 5th lower than a mandolin, but on these international boards that sometimes generates a tangential discussion about whether it is a 5th or octave below and the notion of tenor and alto mandolas or whatever and I was just trying to avoid all the semantic sidebars.
I have heard of the steel classical strings also. My understanding (which could be wrong) is that they have very little tolerance for deviation from the standard length (25.5") and are for standard tuning only because they are sized just right so that they will be at pitch at the sweet spot where it is just enough for a steel string to sound good but not too much for a light classical top.
My recollection is that the steel strings (I think they were Thomastik) were designed to tune up at normal classical tension. It makes sense, though, that they would be calibrated to scale length since they would be far less elastic than nylon. I had them on my wife's guitar - a cheapish Alvarez with a 25.5 inch scale length. My Kohno has a 26 inch length. Probably not a good candidate - not that I would even try it.
Nylon String Guitar
Nylon String Guitar
Just got a nylon string guitar and I have two questions.
What sort of strings should I use for accompaniment of ITM with a plec?
Where would I get a pick up for a Takamine EC132SC?
# Posted on January 21st 2008 by John McCartin
Re: Nylon String Guitar
Savarez extra high tension , yellow label, or high,pink label. An interesting variation is the wound nylon on nylon top EB and G in the pink label. I think the have an R in the product code not the standard J. go to their website for more info. The best strings bar none.
# Posted on January 21st 2008 by jig
Re: Nylon String Guitar
Hello John, hope we see you and your new guitar at the Packie Duignan Flute Gathering on Saturday 26th January
regards deirdre
# Posted on January 21st 2008 by MollyB
Re: Nylon String Guitar
The answer to the question “What kind of strings should I use?” is always “Try different sets until you find what works for you and your instrument”. There are just too many variables to give a reliable universal answer.
# Posted on January 21st 2008 by Bob himself
Re: Nylon String Guitar
Although, not to be too discouraging, the usual answer would start with "steel ones". Nylon string guitars and plectra don't usually combine very well, and the limited dynamic range of a strummed nylon-string (generally going from extremely quiet to moderately quiet, relative to session volume) means that you're going to avoid a lot of the usual rubbish handed out to guitar players at sessions, because nobody will be able to hear you to complain - although some will anyway, by reflex.
Is there a particular reason you want to play a nylon string instrument in this context?
# Posted on January 22nd 2008 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Nylon String Guitar
Some people can make it work pretty well - John McLaughlin, for example - but he plays jazzish stuff. I suspect accompanying ITM on nylon strings would require more right hand skill than with steel strings. And the right choice of plectrum. I'd be interested in hearing how it works.
# Posted on January 22nd 2008 by Bob himself
Re: Nylon String Guitar
I suppose I was thinking more in the terms of an accompaniment role, and unamplified. Typically, when you strike a nylon-strung guitar with a pick, you're going to get a trebly mush of sound, with nothing like the defined chord you expect from a steel-string. This is inherent in the instrument, a consequence partly of the lighter bracing and mostly of the lower tension, and not really something that you can get around with technique. Basically, a certain degree of force will produce volume, beyond that, you're going to get something a lot like "clipping" in an amplification chain: you're putting more signal in than the channel can handle, so it lops off the excess. You might get some luck by tuning up perhaps a whole step to inrease the tension (risking trouble with the bridge and face). You might minimize the problem by using a super-light pick and almost no right-hand grip - the idea being to minimize the displacement of the string on the strum, and thereby avoid the clipping effect.
Probably your best bet, if you're committed to a nylon-string sound in trad, would be to look to the flamenco players. There are certainly some techniques that you could adapt to trad, although you'll probably get some funny looks, and they certainly know something about getting volume out of a nylon string guitar, and about accompaniment.
Mr. Himself is exactly right in that right hand skill will be paramount, and I would add the main element of that skill will be restraint. Good luck - and while I think it's not going to work, I'd love to have you prove me wrong. It's much more interesting than having the limitations of the world confirmed.
# Posted on January 22nd 2008 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Nylon String Guitar
I've recently been amusing myself by playing folk tunes on a nylon strung guitar in various tunings.It doesn't seem to work with a plectrum,so I use my fingers.I don't mean that I fingerpick the tune with full accompaniment,partial chords and all that.I just play the tune wth my first two fingers and thumb.
# Posted on January 22nd 2008 by dafydd
Re: Nylon String Guitar
Steve Cooney and Jim Murray use high tension, i prefer normal tension myself for a warmer tone, obviously jon has only heard inferior quality nylon strung guitars, cos i have no problem with volume in sessions, takamines make decent spanish/classical guitars
# Posted on January 22nd 2008 by poldebrun
Re: Nylon String Guitar
Too quiet? complete opposite of my experiance.. A Spanish guitar strummed with a pick, 1mm nylon blows steelies out of the water. I can back a highland piper. I can back large sessions, A bunch box players, no problem, Admittedly good technique is important, letting the instrument ring , a good guitar also of course helps. but lack of volume, clipping? not at all, a single strum , let it ring, will disperse any illusions as to lack of volume.
# Posted on January 22nd 2008 by jig
Re: Nylon String Guitar
In fact I find small sessions cramp my style, I cant use the full dynamic range without unbalancing the whole session sound.
I class Nylon strung guitars in three catagories; Rhythm, lead, and dual purpose. Its essential to get the right guitar for your style/ projected use.
# Posted on January 22nd 2008 by jig
Re: Nylon String Guitar
Check out Steves guitar! http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=lU7tt8BSe-c
# Posted on January 22nd 2008 by jig
Re: Nylon String Guitar
Yeah, my classical guitar is very loud. But Jon's right that a loud strum on nylon strings can sound mushy. And Jig is right that some nylon strung guitars are better suited for strumming. Back in my teenage folkie days, we used to strum on nylon strings, but the guitars we had were weak-voiced and would've been lame as classical instruments.
Actually, I was thinking about John McLaughlin's backup playing when he plays with other melody instruments. He's able to control it and get a satisfying sound. I find it pretty darn hard to do with a real classical guitar.
# Posted on January 22nd 2008 by Bob himself
Re: Nylon String Guitar
. Tim Edey, as well .
# Posted on January 22nd 2008 by jig
Re: Nylon String Guitar
does tim edey play a takamine too? Does anyone know?
# Posted on January 22nd 2008 by poldebrun
Re: Nylon String Guitar
He does
# Posted on January 22nd 2008 by DADdyGADdy
Re: Nylon String Guitar
>Check out Steves guitar!
That's one axe that won't float anymore.
I haven't heard that song in quite a while, thanks.
Much more of that than you really want here:
http://blog.wfmu.org/freeform/2005/11/61_versions_of_.html
The Ethel Smith version cracks me up.
# Posted on January 23rd 2008 by monkey440
Re: Nylon String Guitar
Tico was the one tune I learnt in my jazz guitar lessons! the rest was beyond me, but tico is a tune. I could handle that......
Funny My Old Spanish looked like Steve's, not such a big hole on the bottom half but another hole at the top too. I never saw it before or since . Any one else seen a Spanish guitar like that?
# Posted on January 23rd 2008 by jig
Re: Nylon String Guitar
my mate has the same takamine nylon as jim murray, great guitar, sounds great plugged in as well! only prob is its not very loud in sessions, not awfully quite, but certainly not the same volume a steel string, i also heard jim murray in a session once, same problem, not enough volume for a session of more than 6 people. grand for smaller quiter sessions.
# Posted on January 23rd 2008 by S.Doherty
Re: Nylon String Guitar
i just watched thos videos of, cooney, byrne, gavin, hession!! brilliant!! cant stop watching them!! where and when was it recorded anyone know?? sooo wish there was a cd of that!!!
# Posted on January 23rd 2008 by S.Doherty
Re: Nylon String Guitar
Well, I dont know about that guitar, but I can assure you I have no problem with lack of volume!
Steel string guitars are totally different beasts. I cant play them, the strings just break all the time. perhaps its because i use Spanish guitar techniques? perhaps people have a problem with volume on a nylon because they try to play it like a steely?
# Posted on January 24th 2008 by jig
Re: Nylon String Guitar
I just joined up after I found this discussion because I was searching for an answer to a somewhat related question, with a bizarre twist to it. I am wondering about pick/plectrum versus fingers for a double course instrument. I just recently converted a classical guitar to a mandocello:
http://www.mandolincafe.net/cgi-bin/ikonboard.cgi?s=95836d454e0d926b793adc8203bf384c;act=ST;f=15;t=50795
and I am thinking of taking it to sessions. I had heard somewhere that using a pick/plectrum on would nylon would decrease its lifespan dramatically. I don't know if thatis true or just something anal classical guitar players like everyone to think. I have been mostlyplaying with fingers so far, but I can definitely get a better double course sound with a pick. I think it has to do with the pick moving through the strings while a finger pulls and releases.
# Posted on February 5th 2008 by arbarnhart
Re: Nylon String Guitar
Well I mostly use a pick and have no issues with wearing strings out with the right hand. They will go at the left. A Heavy hand could break strings, but with my recommendation above With the Saveraz yellow and pink label ... no prob.
looks great.
They make strings for all kinds of instruments.. ie lutes etc. incredible range.
I have tried most strings I would say over the last 30 yrs and these stand clear above all the competition.
lovely job by the way!
Why not tune it EADG? The E anD would be right the others lower.......
# Posted on February 5th 2008 by jig
Re: Nylon String Guitar
When you say EADG, I assume you mean in string number order (what is often referred to as GDAE in pitch order) like an octave mandolin or Irish tenor banjo?
) and one an octave below it at some point, but right now I just wanted a cello tuned instrument.
I considered that and may still try it, but I was really enamored with the sound of the mandocello and wanted to try one. I do like the sound I am getting. The low C strings are settling slower than the rest, but they are settling. The piano like low D double stop in cello tuning almost intrudes into the bass space, but that's assuming you have a bass playing. The other instruments I currently place are the mandolin and electric bass, with far more time spent on mandolin. I want an instrument a 5th below it (I am afraid to name it, depending on which side of the Atlantic and/or Channel you are on
# Posted on February 5th 2008 by arbarnhart
Re: Nylon String Guitar
Wow! That’s interesting. I’d love to hear it.
I wouldn’t worry about wearing out the strings with a plectrum. That’s nonsense. I would have some concern, though, about the tension on the neck and bridge from the extra strings and from picking a double course, but if you’re into lutherie, you’ve probably already weighed that factor.
Classical strings are available in a good range of gauges and all of the brands are pretty well made today. Savarez used to make wound (nylon-on-nylon) 2nd and 3rd strings that would probably have a brighter, clearer sound for your application. I have no idea if they're still made.
# Posted on February 5th 2008 by Bob himself
Re: Nylon String Guitar
They do bob, No 522 R is the normal B, 528R is the wound B.
There are still junk strings out there, name no names.....
Yes arbarnhart I do. Would the Cello not be a single bass? After all the 'bass' sounds an octave lower than it is written. ......
I have a 3/4 cello tuned EADG. It has the same string length as Spanish guitar, and 19fret banjo.
Cello is octave and a 5th below the mandolin. Viola /mandola is a fifth lower. tenor banjo and my piccalo cello/tenor fiddle is an octave lower.
I am curious how high I could tune my 17fret banjo, sure F#BEA,[1 tone] but even up to a Viola pitch.?......
I
# Posted on February 6th 2008 by jig
Re: Nylon String Guitar
Okay, I guess junk is always available. But the choice and quality available today compared to forty-three years ago, when I started buying classical strings, is impressive.
There are steel strings available for classical guitar. I tried some and was not impressed, but they might be worth trying on abarnhart’s instrument.
# Posted on February 6th 2008 by Bob himself
Re: Nylon String Guitar
Fair enough bob
Thats interesting, but how do they manage not pulling the instrument apart? Special guitars with truss rods? low tension?
# Posted on February 6th 2008 by jig
Re: Nylon String Guitar
I used Zaya-Ruzo strings and I checked the tension on their calculator. I don't remember the exact numbers, but the 8 strings I have have more total tension than a standard classical guitar set at normal tension but less than one that has high tension bass strings and much less than one that has X high tension bass strings. The tension is one reason I went with the CC strings at pretty low tension.
"Mandola" was what I was going to refer to as a 5th lower than a mandolin, but on these international boards that sometimes generates a tangential discussion about whether it is a 5th or octave below and the notion of tenor and alto mandolas or whatever and I was just trying to avoid all the semantic sidebars.
I have heard of the steel classical strings also. My understanding (which could be wrong) is that they have very little tolerance for deviation from the standard length (25.5") and are for standard tuning only because they are sized just right so that they will be at pitch at the sweet spot where it is just enough for a steel string to sound good but not too much for a light classical top.
# Posted on February 6th 2008 by arbarnhart
Re: Nylon String Guitar
My recollection is that the steel strings (I think they were Thomastik) were designed to tune up at normal classical tension. It makes sense, though, that they would be calibrated to scale length since they would be far less elastic than nylon. I had them on my wife's guitar - a cheapish Alvarez with a 25.5 inch scale length. My Kohno has a 26 inch length. Probably not a good candidate - not that I would even try it.
Do you have any sound samples of your instrument?
# Posted on February 6th 2008 by Bob himself