has anyone else thought that playing tunes in sessions can sometimes be a little too defined?
I was thinking it might be an idea 'once in a while' to do something different to encourage spontaneity, creativeness and more expression and interaction.
I'm not sure how to do it , but heres a few suggestions...
1. How about one person spark up a rhythm and other people attempt to improvise a tune.
2. One person start a tune and the next in line try to add a phrase. And attempt to create a tune.
3. How about trying a reel version of a jig, or a jig version of a reel.
4.Play tunes really slow (like Martin Hayes) and allow some space for improvising.
There is a time and a place for everything. Generally in my experiance trad sessions are based upon playing music within the boundaries of the traditional forms.
Different sessions may have different ideas as to what is acceptable. Some my sprinkle in tunes from other countries, some strictly Irish, Some basically around tunes from certain areas, others covering tunes from all around Ireland and Scotland.
What we do in other more informal gatherings at home, and on stage is a different matter.
Plenty of accompanists, mostly on guitar, jam all the time anyway, many of them spectacularly badly, even when everyone else is playing the same sets week in and week out. I've not noticed it enhancing anyone's enjoyment though.
Some bodhrán players (and most hippies) actually think that the meldody is all just improvised the whole time. What's surprising is that they don't seem to be hugely impressed by such a feat of group telepathy. If people really want to 'jam' they need to find their nearest bongo circle where they can make a racket and curse stuck up trad players all night long
Ha, I could suggest this at my session if you don't mind paying for my funeral... It would be an interesting thing though to try... maybe somebody should start something for that purpose.
Hey Rollix, that's a sharp bit of observation there. I Just love that, very very perceptive. Thankyou.
It's such a succinct description of what's going through those tiny minds: "What a brilliant, fantastic, loved in, communal thing WE are doing here. I'm improvising, just making it all up as I go along and in such deep empathy with my fellow musicians who are making it up as they go along also and the fantastic mysterious heaven of it is we are all playing the same music."
Very poor, Rollix, just because punters think it all sounds the same, no use attacking bodhran players. The fault obviously lies with melody players, especially "wrapped up in themselves" melody players. They are the ones who must make it "all sound the same".
Now your average bodhran player has to listen, and can distinguish the tunes, better than most melody players because they are only listening to their own playing, and not the collective.
Still if attacking bodhran players makes you feel that little bit more "truly traditional", and helps you to look good in front of the lads and impress women, well why not?
The fact that it illustrates your ignorance of the trad genre should not detract from that.
Ha, and as for it being the melody player's fault that it all sounde the same ... too true yes. But that's because we don't care what it sounds like to the punters. You are spot on right. We are wrapped up in the music.
Wait a second...you mean that's not group telepathy? What have I been doing this whole time? [/sarcasm]
bb, you didn't mean melody players not listening to the collective, did you? Sure, isn't any musician who's playing and not listening basically playing with themselves, no matter what instrument they're using? [stereotypical Yank accent] "I believe y'all call it 'tossing'?"
I did like how you said 'most' hippies though, Rollix.
Ha ha Danny - the confused expressions on the faces of the others when the fiddler plays an actual *tune* - priceless!
Rollix accurately and succinctly spiked what bothers me about many "jams" - and I love the idea of musicians getting together spontaneously - but can't stand drearily repetitive endless formless sh*te.
Danny's clip reminds me of too many "jams" back in the 70s (it was the same tune too! - or Hey Joe, Knockin' on Heaven's Door etc - anything with a simple repetitive chord sequence).
What resulted was not a feeling of freedom but a feeling of imprisonment, trapped in the sludge forever. The drugs actually made it worse for me - no wonder I gravitated toward trad music.
I'd have to say that David Lee Roth bluegrass thing was perhaps the most horrific experience of my life. monkey440, I believe that qualified as cruel and unusual.
>Now your average bodhran player has to listen, and can distinguish the tunes, better than most melody players because they are only listening to their own playing, and not the collective.<
Personally, I don't think your average bodhran player (or guitar player for that matter) has much clue about listening even to the point of not realising everyone else is not playing something loosely related to 4/4 rock (or with guitar, not on C/F/G change)
But there still are plenty of exceptions.
Personally, as someone who attempts melody, I do enjoy a good rythym and I think either instrument done well can steady an evening as\I think rather than being "self aborbed", the melody players can listen and collectively use a good timing.
Sorry to catch you in the collateral damage there, SWFL Fiddler. Next time I'll warn you to send the kids out of the room first. But you knew what you were getting into when you read the title of this thread.
I used to noodle a lot, but then I learned some tunes. Why noodle around in hopes of playing stumbling onto something good, when you can just go into another great tune?
As for "versatile" bluegrass players--I once heard a bluegrass version of "You Keep Me Hanging On." I preferred the Supremes, or even the Vanilla Fudge version, over that one.
Sam Bush and David Grisman's version of "Hold On, I'm Coming" from their mandolin album "Hold On, We're Strumming" (really) is rather good actually. But they aren't just bluegrass players
Oh man, some of you have no sense of humour! That David Lee Roth thing is the most hilarious thing I've seen on YouTube in months! That's right up there with Leonard Nimoy singing torch songs. It's just so wrong! It's perfect!
How about a jam session aswell as tunes?
How about a jam session aswell as tunes?
has anyone else thought that playing tunes in sessions can sometimes be a little too defined?
I was thinking it might be an idea 'once in a while' to do something different to encourage spontaneity, creativeness and more expression and interaction.
I'm not sure how to do it , but heres a few suggestions...
1. How about one person spark up a rhythm and other people attempt to improvise a tune.
2. One person start a tune and the next in line try to add a phrase. And attempt to create a tune.
3. How about trying a reel version of a jig, or a jig version of a reel.
4.Play tunes really slow (like Martin Hayes) and allow some space for improvising.
What do you think?
# Posted on January 17th 2008 by Kess
Re: How about a jam session aswell as tunes?
Kess, please put your helmet, saftey goggles, and other protective equipment on. I fear for the responses you may receive. Good luck.
IMHO, this is not my cuppa tea. I like playing and hearing tunes at sessions. I like 'jamming' once in a while, but I don't do it at sessions.
# Posted on January 17th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: How about a jam session aswell as tunes?
Do it at home.
# Posted on January 17th 2008 by Kenny
Re: How about a jam session aswell as tunes?
Are you insane?
# Posted on January 17th 2008 by gooseinthenettles
Re: How about a jam session aswell as tunes?
I think it's fine for Martin Hayes, but I fear he's saturated the "dragging a tune to death" market all on his own. :-0
# Posted on January 17th 2008 by Backer
Re: How about a jam session aswell as tunes?
Sounds like a nightmare scenario to me! Jazz may lend itself to improvisation and jamming but please keep it away from Irish traditional sessions.
# Posted on January 17th 2008 by Bannerman
Re: How about a jam session aswell as tunes?
There is a time and a place for everything. Generally in my experiance trad sessions are based upon playing music within the boundaries of the traditional forms.
Different sessions may have different ideas as to what is acceptable. Some my sprinkle in tunes from other countries, some strictly Irish, Some basically around tunes from certain areas, others covering tunes from all around Ireland and Scotland.
What we do in other more informal gatherings at home, and on stage is a different matter.
# Posted on January 17th 2008 by jig
Re: How about a jam session aswell as tunes?
Heh, heh... here's to Kess, wily windup artist.
# Posted on January 17th 2008 by drone
Re: How about a jam session aswell as tunes?
You mean most sessions do not already do this?
# Posted on January 17th 2008 by bodhran bliss
Re: How about a jam session aswell as tunes?
Yikes!!!
I nearly drowned on my coffee there.
# Posted on January 17th 2008 by bogman
Re: How about a jam session aswell as tunes?
5. Everyone play their favourite scales and arpeggios.
# Posted on January 17th 2008 by grego
Re: How about a jam session aswell as tunes?
Experience... tsk, spelling.
# Posted on January 17th 2008 by jig
Re: How about a jam session aswell as tunes?
Does our response just indicate what old stick-in-the-muds we are??! Such experiments could be fun - if everyone treated it as an experiment.
# Posted on January 17th 2008 by Mark Harmer
Re: How about a jam session aswell as tunes?
Yes, Mark, but is it ITM ?
"It's ITM, Jim, but not as we know it."
# Posted on January 17th 2008 by Guernsey Pete
Re: How about a jam session aswell as tunes?
"Damn it Jim, I'm an Irish fiddler, not a blues musician!"
# Posted on January 17th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: How about a jam session aswell as tunes?
Dunno - but I bet numbers 1 and 2 might be how some tunes came into being!
# Posted on January 17th 2008 by Mark Harmer
Re: How about a jam session aswell as tunes?
That would definately be the exeptions rather than the rule. I have been at some weakening sessions but that would take the biscuit.
# Posted on January 17th 2008 by bogman
Re: How about a jam session aswell as tunes?
Plenty of accompanists, mostly on guitar, jam all the time anyway, many of them spectacularly badly, even when everyone else is playing the same sets week in and week out. I've not noticed it enhancing anyone's enjoyment though.
# Posted on January 17th 2008 by E
Re: How about a jam session aswell as tunes?
As an ardent fan of ours said last week "all those tunes sound the same. I enjoyed the Paul Simon stuff".
I think that is about par for listening lovers at sessions.
# Posted on January 17th 2008 by bodhran bliss
Re: How about a jam session aswell as tunes?
"...leave yer jazz to the Beatles..."
# Posted on January 18th 2008 by drone
Re: How about a jam session aswell as tunes?
Some bodhrán players (and most hippies) actually think that the meldody is all just improvised the whole time. What's surprising is that they don't seem to be hugely impressed by such a feat of group telepathy. If people really want to 'jam' they need to find their nearest bongo circle where they can make a racket and curse stuck up trad players all night long
# Posted on January 18th 2008 by Rollix
Re: How about a jam session aswell as tunes?
Ha, I could suggest this at my session if you don't mind paying for my funeral... It would be an interesting thing though to try... maybe somebody should start something for that purpose.
# Posted on January 18th 2008 by JosephofCK
Re: How about a jam session aswell as tunes?
Ok...
every one on this > side play the tune in G
every one on this < sie play the tune in A
now go!
# Posted on January 18th 2008 by davydd
Re: How about a jam session aswell as tunes?
Hey Rollix, that's a sharp bit of observation there. I Just love that, very very perceptive. Thankyou.
It's such a succinct description of what's going through those tiny minds: "What a brilliant, fantastic, loved in, communal thing WE are doing here. I'm improvising, just making it all up as I go along and in such deep empathy with my fellow musicians who are making it up as they go along also and the fantastic mysterious heaven of it is we are all playing the same music."
Brilliant
# Posted on January 18th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: How about a jam session aswell as tunes?
Very poor, Rollix, just because punters think it all sounds the same, no use attacking bodhran players. The fault obviously lies with melody players, especially "wrapped up in themselves" melody players. They are the ones who must make it "all sound the same".
Now your average bodhran player has to listen, and can distinguish the tunes, better than most melody players because they are only listening to their own playing, and not the collective.
Still if attacking bodhran players makes you feel that little bit more "truly traditional", and helps you to look good in front of the lads and impress women, well why not?
The fact that it illustrates your ignorance of the trad genre should not detract from that.
# Posted on January 18th 2008 by bodhran bliss
Re: How about a jam session aswell as tunes?
Ha ha Mr Bliss, sour grapes indeed. The description is about "Some bodhrán players (and most hippies)".
You, ofcourse fall into an entirely different category
# Posted on January 18th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: How about a jam session aswell as tunes?
Ha, and as for it being the melody player's fault that it all sounde the same ... too true yes. But that's because we don't care what it sounds like to the punters. You are spot on right. We are wrapped up in the music.
# Posted on January 18th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: How about a jam session aswell as tunes?
Wait a second...you mean that's not group telepathy? What have I been doing this whole time? [/sarcasm]
bb, you didn't mean melody players not listening to the collective, did you? Sure, isn't any musician who's playing and not listening basically playing with themselves, no matter what instrument they're using? [stereotypical Yank accent] "I believe y'all call it 'tossing'?"
I did like how you said 'most' hippies though, Rollix.
# Posted on January 18th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: How about a jam session aswell as tunes?
Most hippies are aged about 62 now. I do not know how many of them play bodhrans.
The truth Mr Llig, the truth, as we always knew it.
# Posted on January 18th 2008 by bodhran bliss
Re: How about a jam session aswell as tunes?
Why are you avoiding learning the tunes? Most of us play the tunes.
# Posted on January 18th 2008 by Farr
Re: How about a jam session aswell as tunes?
is this the kind of thing you'd be after?
The fiddle player looks like he knows what he's doing -- except for being in amongst that lot....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GVgjhXrvrCI
# Posted on January 18th 2008 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: How about a jam session aswell as tunes?
Ha ha Danny - the confused expressions on the faces of the others when the fiddler plays an actual *tune* - priceless!
Rollix accurately and succinctly spiked what bothers me about many "jams" - and I love the idea of musicians getting together spontaneously - but can't stand drearily repetitive endless formless sh*te.
Danny's clip reminds me of too many "jams" back in the 70s (it was the same tune too! - or Hey Joe, Knockin' on Heaven's Door etc - anything with a simple repetitive chord sequence).
What resulted was not a feeling of freedom but a feeling of imprisonment, trapped in the sludge forever. The drugs actually made it worse for me - no wonder I gravitated toward trad music.
# Posted on January 18th 2008 by Bren
Re: jam tomorrow...
mind you,is n't Kess's no.3 part of the music?
as for jammy sessions...a few years ago i witnessed a saxophone player jam along to a session.
whilst she seemed to enjoy it i don't think anybody else did!
# Posted on January 18th 2008 by biggus dave
Re: How about a jam session aswell as tunes?
Was she with a bearded piano accordion player, by any chance? He likes to do a few recitals and poems etc too.......
# Posted on January 18th 2008 by Johannes J
Re: Why bother with the tunes?
Used to be one of my favorites:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hUynbNnRF0A
But now I'm holding out for a clip of Jig, Llig and Bliss backing Bono.
# Posted on January 18th 2008 by monkey440
Re: How about a jam session aswell as tunes?
The only time I would back Bono is if there was a contest for the greatest ar#s hole ever. Mind you, he would probably be odds on favourite.
# Posted on January 18th 2008 by bodhran bliss
Re: How about a jam session aswell as tunes?
I'd have to say that David Lee Roth bluegrass thing was perhaps the most horrific experience of my life. monkey440, I believe that qualified as cruel and unusual.
# Posted on January 18th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: How about a jam session aswell as tunes?
>Now your average bodhran player has to listen, and can distinguish the tunes, better than most melody players because they are only listening to their own playing, and not the collective.<
Personally, I don't think your average bodhran player (or guitar player for that matter) has much clue about listening even to the point of not realising everyone else is not playing something loosely related to 4/4 rock (or with guitar, not on C/F/G change)
But there still are plenty of exceptions.
Personally, as someone who attempts melody, I do enjoy a good rythym and I think either instrument done well can steady an evening as\I think rather than being "self aborbed", the melody players can listen and collectively use a good timing.
# Posted on January 19th 2008 by Jon Freeman
Re: How about a jam session aswell as tunes?
Sorry to catch you in the collateral damage there, SWFL Fiddler. Next time I'll warn you to send the kids out of the room first. But you knew what you were getting into when you read the title of this thread.
# Posted on January 19th 2008 by monkey440
Re: How about a jam session aswell as tunes?
No idea what a 4/4 rock is, my construction theory is limited to a piece of 4 by 2 wood.
I have no concept either of "average" bodhran players so cannot comment on that either.
# Posted on January 19th 2008 by bodhran bliss
Re: How about a jam session aswell as tunes?
In one post, volunteered by bodhran bliss
"Now your average bodhran player has to listen..."
In a later in the same thread I read from the same poster within a matter of hrs..
"I have no concept either of "average" bodhran players"
out of thisdiscussion.
# Posted on January 19th 2008 by Jon Freeman
Re: How about a jam session aswell as tunes?
Wow1 Well spotted Jon, sure beats train spotting eh?
Sometimes I truly do despair. What has the world become?
# Posted on January 19th 2008 by bodhran bliss
Re: How about a jam session aswell as tunes?
I used to noodle a lot, but then I learned some tunes. Why noodle around in hopes of playing stumbling onto something good, when you can just go into another great tune?
As for "versatile" bluegrass players--I once heard a bluegrass version of "You Keep Me Hanging On." I preferred the Supremes, or even the Vanilla Fudge version, over that one.
# Posted on January 19th 2008 by mickray
Re: How about a jam session aswell as tunes?
Sam Bush and David Grisman's version of "Hold On, I'm Coming" from their mandolin album "Hold On, We're Strumming" (really) is rather good actually. But they aren't just bluegrass players
# Posted on January 19th 2008 by Bren
Re: How about a jam session aswell as tunes?
Oh man, some of you have no sense of humour! That David Lee Roth thing is the most hilarious thing I've seen on YouTube in months! That's right up there with Leonard Nimoy singing torch songs. It's just so wrong! It's perfect!
# Posted on January 19th 2008 by kennedy
Re: How about a jam session aswell as tunes?
I was hoping they'd smash up their instruments at the end.
and maybe an explosive device in the bodhran
Keith Moon RIP.
# Posted on January 19th 2008 by Bodhi
Re: How about a jam session aswell as tunes?
why not just go to an open mic night ?
# Posted on January 19th 2008 by tony b