For years, I've been practicing with the aid of a good instrument tuner because I was determined to play as much "in tune" as was possible for me.
I've heard it stated by a knowledgeable player that "playing out of tune is a fact of life." But I think the person meant "meaning a very little bit out of tune is a fact of life."
I just wonder, how close to PERFECT the best fiddle players usually remain, as they 'whiz' through reels. What about the ones who have had classical training and then become really good players of Irtrad? I wonder how they would 'register' if they stopped in the middle of a reel and checked out that "G" on the D string in a G reel. I find I have to constantly correct my 'E' from going a little bit sharp on E-minor reels that use the E/B rocking pattern. Of course -- this is when I'm playing without a reference point from a tuned piano or guitar.
But I wonder how much time other fiddle players here spend grappling with their intonation, and how 'perfect' they try to be. And what do you think the 'norm' is, for a fiddle player who would be considered reasonably good?
My intonation is pretty good, but it's certainly not perfect. I haven't taped my playing in a long time because I have to set up my new tape player with a 'mic.'
I wonder how much other fiddle players here obsess about their intonation.
I heard playrs who were grossly out of tune before I started playing the instrument (used to play the music on plectrums). When I bought my first fiddle, I knew I didn't want to sound out of tune, so I worked incredibly hard at getting decent pitch.
I'm always disheartened when I'm playing and think I'm playing 'in tune,' and then I check a note on the tuner and find out it's actually a little flat or a little sharp (unless it's the third of the scale).
Actually, I haven't heard the playing of Liz Knowles. I know she played classical music well before she started playing trad. I should get one of her CD's.
if playing with myself ( I don''t mean that the way it sounds)
I tune my A to a tuning fork, then tune the other strings to the 5th that they are..if you have been playing for years, you will know this
I f playing with others (again the disclaimer) I tune to the fix pitched A like the concertina or button box
and then I listen to myself...sometimes in a session after a couple pints,intonation can get a little sloppy...
but still listen
because others are getting a wee bit south too
in other words, I would learn to trust my ear...ditch the tuner for all the notes...just tune to an A (440, 442, 415, whatever) and start listening
when I was taking some lessons some years back (and yes, working on scales in 5th position, not that that has anything to do with intonation or anything) after a couple months my teacher said "so, what have you learned thus far"..
If you are decently musical, I think that intonation issues will tend to work themselves out over your first few years of playing, and that it will tend to be some other aspect of your playing that becomes your personal limiting factor. This was my own experience. In my case it was my bowing that needed, and continues to need, my dedicated attention. Perhaps what I am saying here about intonation would not apply to classical music with its multiple position and oddball key signatures, but for Irish traditional music I think it does. After a few years of playing, you have had your left hand sitting in first position playing the same notes millions of times, and unless you are deaf or extremely inattentive to your own playing, you will most likely have locked into reasonable intonation.
Playing the fiddle is like a game of whack-a-mole. Many things to simultaneously manage -- intonation, rhythm, bowing arm, bow hold, tone, etc. Since you have been playing for years, and your are obviously attentive to the issue of intonation, I would hazard a guess that the intonation mole may not be the one poking its head up right now for you.
If you have some sort of dissatisfaction with how your playing sounds, then you might be suspecting that your intonation is the primary cause of your unhappiness when really it's something else. I would recommend finding a player whose playing you respect -- this could be a teacher or just a musical acquaintance -- and get them to give you an honest assessment of what needs the most immediate attention in your playing.
If you are brave, post a link to an mp3 of your playing to thesession.org
There teally isn't a way you can be perfectly in tine in any measurable mathematical sense. Tuning is an art, not a science. Top world class piano players travel with their own piano tuner, someone who tunes pianos how they like it. It's all down to your ear and your preference.
And the more you play, the more your preference becomes your own the less tolerant you are of others.
When I was a kid my favourite record of all time was Kevin Burk's If the Cap Fits. But there are some tracks on it where I now hear him out of tune. Is he out of tune? Not for him.
One of the great skills in small ensemble playing, string quartet in particular, is matching what you require from intonation with you fellow musicians.
Padraig o'Keeffe played airs with at least 3 positions for F. Which one was in tune? Listen to Johnny Doherty playing the Mountain Road, then Julia Clifford, then Denis Murphy - do they sound like their fingers are all in the same place for those F# segments, or their Ds? Paddy Cronin puts his F#s somewhere crazy on the Dairymaid, and so does Tommy Peoples, and Cs are another issue entirely. Being "out of tune" isn't just a fact of life, or a moot point - to some extent it's a stylistic, regional or personal, identifier.
Good intonation just means that it sounds good, not that the finger is in some exact magical spot on the string. Think about it, there are an infinite number of ways to play a note that is in tune, because there are an infinite number of intervals between any two spots on the string no matter how close together those two spots are. Intonation is never "perfect."
Good intonation means getting within a certain (narrow) range of pitch. But there's a lot of variation possible in that small spot. Like DtM said, it can be used for expression.
"Crazy FIngers" --- yeah -- I am working mainly on my bowing and rhythm -- strengthening my bow arm which will help my rhythm. But I do practice with the tuner on as a matter of habit. Maybe I should try "tuning down" the worry button.
I know my rhythm is what needs the most attention -- and it's getting the attention.
Being of the female gender and not having done dedicated strength training for "upper body" -- I didn't realize for quite a long time how much my lack of real muscular strength in my arms was probably affecting my bowing. Now I know it; and like all other aspects of playing Irish music decently on the fiddle, it takes work. I think women who started playing fiddle or violin at a young age build the strength up without thinking about it as much. Whatever muscles are stressed in bowing reels, I wasn't using those muscles consistently enough for other work to build strength. I'm not young any more, and I fall into the category of those who grapple with stiffness, soreness and limitation due to not being 'young.' But I think, maybe playing Irtrad on the fiddle will keep me young -- I'm not going to stop until my body falls apart. I have some cervical disc impingement and it's troubling, but -- I'm not sure it hurts any more when I play the fiddle than when I don't. My orthopedist once said to me that playing the fiddle "might be good for it." I'm hoping it is. I don't have much tolerance for nonsteroidals.
Every practice session, I play one or two tunes slowly, really paying attention to the intonation. I've played for decades. To me, this feels like enough. My thought is to give it reasonable attention, then let it fall into place by itself; it will, and it does.
I had the priceless opportunity to spend a fair amount of time with Buddy McMaster at Rocky Mountain Fiddle Camp in 2001. He said several times that he never played a tune the same way twice. I rather think he was the same way about tuning. Certainly, he wasn't obsessive. He'd tune once, and I wouldn't see him do it again for at least the next couple of hours. And the whole time, he played like -- well, Buddy McMaster >wg<.
I don't think the tuner is going to help you, and it might even hurt you. If it's calibrated for even temperment (like a piano), it's automatically going to be wrong for fiddle, which is just tuned (tuned to itself). Even if it's calibrated for just tuning, you're still relying on your eyes and not your ears to tell you when you're in tune, so you're not training yourself to really hear the pitches you're playing.
Your fiddle itself will tell you when you're in tune. In first position, the third finger on any string is an octave above the open string below it. The first finger is an octave below the open string two strings above. You can always check for resonances that way and using the intervals like thirds and fifths and fourths. Other posters here can tell you about listening for harmonic overtones, which I can't explain too well.
Crazy_fingers---whack-a-mole is the best analogy! That's exactly what it's like!
Disclaimer ~ I am not a fiddle player.
If your session has a box player I would go with that.
You play with other instruments (unless you leave the tuner on accidentally). & if you have a piper that becomes a subject all it's own.
Anyway here is my bit from the wind section. On Low D whistle (& flute) the in tuneness varies. We try to tune to the pitch (note & octave) we are most likely to play. What we want to be dead on is the tonal center & as best we can the bell tone. Each note played should be in tune we played but we can vary how we get to the note.
Acoustically there is a pitch as we 'attack' the note ~ a pitch as the note is played 'sustain' & a pitch following 'decay'
Sorry for crashing the thread. Hope my perspective is well received.
All suggestions and comments are well-receilved. I think the phrase 'tonal center' is what to concentrate on, for me. It's possible that I waiver slightly above and below the center but am close to it most of the time; so maybe I shouldn't worry about wavering off 'the center' too much. It's certainly easier when there are reference instruments. I learned to play behind the closed door of my apartment, alone, as an adult. It was actually suggested to me many years ago, by a guitar accompaniest who is also a piano tuner by trade, to get a tuner and work with it. He had told me "all your positions are close, but you can improve -- get a tuner and practice playing to it." So I did!! And it helped me but maybe I should practice without it every other time I play -- at this point.
Yeah, if you're trying to stay dead-center with the tuner you're probably worrying too much. Beside, tuners can be wrong...the important thing is the sound.
A good way to check your intonation is to play along with a solo fiddle recording by a good player. If you can stay on pitch with the other guy, your intontation is fine. If you're off by any significant amount, it will be easy to hear.
I play the flute. I recently "walked out" on a session (of which I had been a long=standing participant) populated by a fiddle player who is OBSESSED with perfect pitch to the point of stopping mid-tune and loudly plucking strings. He's a piano tuner. Being a junior member of this session, I've fumed for years over his rudeness, but just couldn't take it anymore. Those who play the flute know the dynamics of the instrument, and being out 2 or 3 cents for the first set or two is forgivable. Not with this bloke. After one set, he wants an "a", and says I'm flat, move the slide in a bit. I've been through this exercise many times before so I DO NOT move the tuning slide, but act like I do! Your fine now says he. How can a normal human care obsessively that a woodwind instrument will be that far out of tune after playing one set of tunes? And if he does, give us a break here, this ain't Carnegie Hall. I've burned a bridge, but what I've left on the other side probably isn't worth playing ITM with. My message here is: cut the flute players a bit of slack, at least for the first few sets of tunes.
yes,playing 'in tune' is one of the tricky things about any stringed instrument.
what it all boils down to constant aural vigilance-whether you play on your own or with other people.
i can't see tuners helping too much-it's better to check with your open strings,all things being equal but even that won't work with some tunes/keys/modes.
as llig intimated above,tuning is also relative to who you are and where you come from-those of us with a classical background have to watch out for instant judgements for instance.
in short,rely on your own ears rather than a fixed tuner,imo.
Even later ... no two top classical violinists will have identical perceptions of intonation. Sometimes their intonation is distinctive enough to identify their playing on that alone - Yehudi Menuhin was a case in point.
We're all human and the position changes of the finger tips on the strings only need to shift by a small fraction of a millimetre to cause an observable change in pitch. But that's no excuse for being sloppy about it and not trying!
More specifcally, it's about balancing what your ear (not some device, or someone else's ear - unless you really really suck) with what you are phsyically capable of.
If you have a good ear, then it's relatively straight forward to bring your fingers into line.
A problem can occur though when your ear is not as good as you thought it was. Have a conversation about some famous recording your mates will be familiar with and discuss where you think the intonation wavers. Checking tuning against devices is no good. A bloke on here says he checks his intonation against a tin whistle. duh.
As far as flute players go, I'll always cut a beginner some slack. Or an experienced player some time to warm up. But in the end there is no excuse. I know it's not easy to play a flute or whistle in tune, but that's no excuse. I'm pretty hopeless on my overton, the intonation is all over the place and it's not the instrument, a good player makes it sound perfect. A flute player freind of mine was pretty hopeless for quite some time, but other aspects of their playing was improving and she's a freind so due slack was given. Her intonation is lovely now.
I agree that practising to an electronic tuner is counter-productive. If you were to end up playing in perfect equal temperament, it would not sound right. The fiddle has microtonal capabilities, so why not exploit them. Subtle gradations in pitch, I think, are an essential expressive medium in Irish (and many other forms of) traditional fiddling. Caoimhin O Raghallaigh speaks eloquently on the personal and regional variation in intonation on an episode of Canuinti Ceoil on TG4 from late last year http://www.tg4.ie/Webt/webt.htm (I'm not sure if this episode is still available for viewing online).
I have been playing fiddle for 4 years, after a decade or so of playing fretted instruments. I still have a very long way to go yet before I can consistently produce the exact note I want to hear from my fiddle, But I would not trust an electronic tuner over my own ear to judge when I hit the 'right' note.
I have to admit I obsess about my intonation. But then If you don t, on some instruments, you run the risk of playing loudly and out of tune. The bottom line is that your instrument needs to harmonise with itself, Check these figures out, yeah yeah, I know. you don't need physics to play the fiddle, but they demonstrate the problems of using equal tempered tuner;
In just intonation in the key of C [261. 63 hz], the note A is 436.04Hz, and D is 294.33Hz.
So the pitch of the true notes in a scale refer to the original starting note.
So in the Key of D 294.33Hz, A would be 441.495Hz.
in D 293.66 A is 440.5
so you see, if we play in D 293.66, concert pitch, the A has to be tuned sharp to 440..50
AS we mostly play around D and G in Irish trad ,The A442 standard is possibly more suitable, giving us D 294.6667[.Using concert pitch C261.33Hz as the starting point rather than A]
As fiddlers we have to adjust our note so they feel good for our ears. Training the ears there for is very important. If we are used to listening to equal temperament, then that is what will sound right. If we are used to listening to a just scale , such as the whistle, then that will sound right an d equal will sound off.
Train your ears by listening to traditional instruments like the whistle and pipes, that way, it might not sound 'right' to someone bought up listening to equal temperament, but thats Ok eh?.
By the way Llig. I never said I check my intonation against a whistle, why would I , I simply suggested a newcomer can use a whistle as a first step in their scales. Doh Reh mi, you know?
"The A442 standard is possibly more suitable, giving us D 294.6667[.Using concert pitch C261.33Hz as the starting point rather than A] " posted by jig above.
How come the C at A442 is lower that the C at A440, and where does the D294.6667 come from ?
Yeah, I blow an A then a D then G then an E,or rather I get the whistler to do so. then i fine tune.
I didnt say it was?
I said a just scale's notes are relative to the starting note. what we call that note, or its frequency are irrelevant , it is a matter of proportion, right? D294.666667 comes from A442 divided by 1.5 or rather, the other way round.
Not 1.49831 the ratio of equal temperament.
I hasten to add I am not a physicist, Its the idea that matters rather than fractions and decimal places. I just did a bit of research, Im sure there is someone who has a far greater grasp of the depths of the issue.
'Yeah, I blow an A then a D then G then an E,or rather I get the whistler to do so. then i fine tune.'
it saves time if you just get one note(say an 'A') to tune.then it's relatively easy to tune a fiddle.unless of course you want to paly with a whistle.
the last whistle player i had to play with was a nightmare to tune to-ask for an 'A' and you could take your pick from about half a dozen frequencies!
and yes,gian marco-i find it hard playing with any sort of piano as far as intonation is concerned!
OK jig.
The maths of your first bit getting to A441.95 works out fine (A440 e-> C261.63 j->D294.33 j->A441.95) though going via the C seems a bit convoluted. Then you skip the C and get to A440.5 (A440 e-> D293.66 j-> A440.5) but don't explain the route. You then use yet another route to get from A442 to D294.6667 (A442 j-> D294.667) but say you are using C and quote a value that is not what you say it is.
Are you trying to make this look harder than it is...
Of course i want to play with whistlers! This is Irish music after all!! I suppose it does depend on the whistler, and whistle, but hey, I live and play in the west of Ireland!
Not at all David, Please explain it all a bit clearer if you can. I just play trad but where did I quote C as anything other than 261.33? Please clarify if I made some errors, its a long time since I went to school. I am certainly no expert in this matter {as you can tell }
"find a reference , say the tin whistle, and play each note slowly"
"a simple method of achieving good intonation and tone without the benefit of a teacher. I suggested, they get a teacher, however scales with reference to a tin whistle will do the job."
And I'm just wondering, if one of your pupils came to you saying that they were worried that they may be "Obsessing Over Intonation on the Fiddle", would your response be to blind them with all this science stuff which even blinds you?
Ah ok david, fair enough, all these numbers and stuff.
So can you explain for us in a clearer more concise and accurate manner?
Llig Im simply fed up with your inane comments questions and insults, I have better things to do than spend any more time with you discussing issues where you appear to have your head in the sand. Come up with some thing more interesting perhaps?
There's nothing wrong with *obsessing* over intonation, per se - it might be necessary to achieve your goal. But obsessively trying to imitate someone or something, be it another fiddler or a superstrobe tunertron with 0.005% tolerance, seems to me to be a waste of time and energy.
...it's not so much the note you play as what you do with it that counts. If, perchance, a note comes out a touch sharper or flatter than you intended, you can make it make sense in the context of the tune by where you go next, even within the space of that one note. It's one of my goals to be able to do that - if an unachievable one for me.
Jig. I think TheMuse did it well enough above. The numbers don't really help.
OK. If you have a tin whistle that sounds really good when played against a D drone, but you don't have much ability to change the pitch of the notes then it will usually sound better playing tunes in D (without a drone) than tunes in Edorian, expecially if those tunes in Edorian are the sort that sound good over a E drone.
My cloth ears tell me that and the numbers, along with a peek at the tuner, tell my why. So I got a flute. I was reading this discussion to learn something from fiddlers.
God bless every fiddle-player who obsesses about intonation !
And, from a fretted-instrument-player; "Thank you".
Those sessions when you start getting your tuner out every other set because you think it's YOU out of tune; flute players, blowing, adjusting their slide, blowing again; whistle-players trying to warm their instruments up to catch up with whatever pitch the fiddler has strayed to..........
Thank you for making the effort.
Intonation in the classical sense is not right for trad fiddle. If you listen to a lot of the older players (and some current players) they all have their own ideas for pitching notes. Some of course just don't have a great sense of pitching and are more concerned with rhythm and drive. Others consistently play the same pitch and that pitch is slightly sharp or flat compared to what is considered 'in tune' these days. This is particularly true of notes around f, b and c, also d and g to some extent.
If you get a chance to listen to Paddy Canny, Paddy Fahey and James Byrne to name but three you'll hear these kind of sounds. I think players just like certain pitches to get a mood for a tune. Slightly sharpening or flattening a note can do wonders for expressive purposes.
and sorry to all accordionists, concertinists, pianists and others who are tuned to equal temperament but all these instruments are late additions to the tradition and have in a sense imposed equal temperament on ITM where it didn't exist before. The more people forget this the closer we are to losing a really great aspect of our tradition.
So in sessions, yeah it's fine to tune to the accordion, but fiddlers please don't aim for equal temperament when you're playing solo, experiment with the outside pitches and you might find something really interesting.
and guernsey pete, I'm primarily a fretted instrument player, I understand your point but the best thing to do in sessions is to ditch the tuner and just use your ear to tune to the main instrument in the session, that needs to be defined at least, everyone has to tune to one person.
Tune one pair of strings slightly flat.
Using the tuner, tune one string up until the tuner just shows the note is 'in tune'
Tune the second string until just before the tuner shows it is sharp. You now have two strings which, according to the tuner, are in tune.
And everytime I've tried this with an electronic tuner,I've been able to hear a difference between the strings - not just a little bit, but quite noticeable.
If you are obsessing about intonation, learn to trust your ears.
Irish music has always had its own microtones ("trick" or "lonesome" notes"), which are deliberately played quarter-tones typically lying between a C and C# or F and F#. There are some tunes that are spoiled if you don't play the quarter-tone, one example being "The Pullet and the Cock" (all the "c's" in the B-part are played a quarter-tone sharp) - see http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/1148 for further details.
I have an idea that some of the controversy over some of O'Neill's transcriptions ("should that be an F-nat or an F#") could be due to the fact that they were transcribed from live playing, and a player who used trick notes (or perhaps just played out of tune) would inadvertently confuse the issue.
If you want to hear unusual (but very accurate) intonation from the classical world it's worth getting hold of a recording of music by the Czech composer Alois Haba who lived about 100 years ago. He concentrated most of his efforts into composing music in quarter-tones and sixth-tones for string quartets and similar ensembles. On a first listen, this microtone music sounds weirdly out of tune, but your ear soon becomes accustomed to the idiom and then you accept it on its own terms. There was an LP of Haba's music out in the '60s on the old Supraphon label.
As far as playing in tune with yourself/your instrument, try checking your intonation against your open strings. For example, your G on the D string should be in tune with your open G string (one octave higher of course), and the A on the D string should be the same as the open A string. E, F, F# also sound a particular way with the neighboring open strings. G and E are a major 6th, E and A are a perfect fourth and so on... This technique will help you to remain in tune with yourself and bring out some of your best tone by exploiting the resonances of your instrument. When you hit the G on the D string in tune with your open G, the G string will vibrate sympathetically and sound great! This may break down slightly with microtonal inflections, but it's a great way to work on intonation and knowing exactly where your fingers are coming down on the strings!
Even my classical teachers weren't this obsessive over intonation. At some point you need to quit worrying about the details or else be buried by them.
Arrrrrrrrh Pirate-Fiddler! Arrrrrrh! Arrrrrh! I've noticed lots of times that arguments over pitch are caused by people that are comparing the different upper partials produced from two different instruments (say a piano's A vs. a bowed violin A) as opposed to the fundamental and getting confused. It could be that you're now predisposed to hearing more of the fundamental. Google "hearing test pitch" - there are sites that have interactive tests where you can measure how well you can differentiate between micro tones and how you compare to others that have taken the test.
Lazy hound,if I was playing my concertina with you,youwould have to choose between c natural or c sharp,because my concertina doesnt do c and a quarter,if you didnt and you continued to play quarter tone sharp or flat of me ,it would be musical cacophony,
By the end of the evening our temperaments would not be equal or equable,.in fact our tempers and temperament would probably be mean.Dick Miles
"Irish music has always had its own microtones ("trick" or "lonesome" notes"), which are deliberately played quarter-tones typically lying between a C and C# or F and F#."
Wow, thanks for that little tidbit. I didn't know that and know that I do it certainly clears up some things.
jtrout: we seem to have a dulcimer player like yours. I just don't sit near him. Acoustics at our session are bad enough you can hardly hear if you sit across from someone.
I have tinnitus, too. I have a hard time trusting my hearing when trying to tune to others in a noisy place. I didn't think it might have something to do with the tinnitus, but maybe so.
I'm in the process of developing a new tool for assessing intonation. It's a program for displaying pitch on a scrolling graph as you play. If you play sharp, the trace is colored red; if you play flat it's blue; if you're right on it's white. You can use it as a tuner one note at a time, but you can also play a passage at tempo and see which notes were out of tune.
You can choose what temperament to compare your pitches to. Equal temperament and just temperament are two of the choices, but there are more. Beginning fiddlers tend to be out of tune no matter what intonation they compare to. More advanced players might like to use the program not for a good/bad judgment, but as a tool to visualize and compare.
The tool also turns out to be useful for transcription.
I'd be delighted if some people from this forum would try it out and let me know what they think. The program is called Intonia. You can get a previous of it at http://www.intonia.com .
At some point in the future, it will be a commercial product distributed via shareware, but for now I'm giving it free to beta testers who will give me feedback on how they use it. I'm asking testers to join a Yahoo group so I know who you are, so I can distribute program updates (and they're frequent), and to encourage discussion about the program. Point your browser at http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/Intonia/ and click "Join this Group". If you don't already have a Yahoo ID, you'll need to register. When you receive confirmation of your group membership, you'll receive instructions for downloading the program.
"I have no clue about tinitus. Sorry."
Pirate-Fiddler, if that sounded mean or dismissive, I definitely didn't mean it that way. I hope you find the answer to your question"
jasonb1985
I didn't think you were being dismissive or mean at all. I do something similar to what you describe above except I start with the open A to open E. My teacher has told me that if ithe fiddle is in tune it should sound like the beginning of Twinkle Twinkle. Then the rest of the tuning is like you said.
The trouble is sometimes I am spot on others times I'm sharp or flat. It isn't consistant. I don't know if it is me or the tinitus throwing me off. Same thing happens singing.
[Irish music has always had its own microtones ("trick" or "lonesome" notes"), which are deliberately played quarter-tones typically lying between a C and C# or F and F#."
Wow, thanks for that little tidbit. I didn't know that and know that I do it certainly clears up some things.
jtrout: we seem to have a dulcimer player like yours. I just don't sit near him. Acoustics at our session are bad enough you can hardly hear if you sit across from someone.
I have tinnitus, too. I have a hard time trusting my hearing when trying to tune to others in a noisy place. I didn't think it might have something to do with the tinnitus, but maybe so.]
really, on what authority is this,
it certainly does not when you are playing a fixed note instrument like a concertina,button accordion,melodeon,piano accordion.
while some fiddlers may have deliberately played a quarter tone out,others I have known have done it ,because their intonation was poor,and they couldnt differentiate between c and c sharp,as is the case with many beginners.
intonation on the fiddle is important if you are going to play with free reed instruments [harmonicas, because they can bend notes, excepted] pianos etc.Dick Miles
Pirate, I might get jumped on[ as normal! but an old trick, very old in fact is to mark the correct positions on the side of the finger board that you can see, or rather get your instructor to do so. using tipex, it wears off soon enough, A travelling fiddle teacher in Clare used to bang tacks into the neck as guides, so what I suggest has roots in the Irish fiddle tradition.
After a while you get used to putting your fingers down in the correct place and dont need it any more. You can then concentrate on hearing the finer points of tuning.
My very first fiddle teacher used to put tape on the fingerboard where your fingers were supposed to go. Mind you, he only did that with the people with whom he had completely given up trying to get to hear the notes. They always gave up fiddle soon after.
And yes, the scale used for Irish (and other) trad is not the same as the classical scale. Which does indeed present a problem when playing with fixed reed instruments. Generally not one that's too difficult to get over, though.
You either compromise ... or just accept that the concertina player is always going to be out of tune.
The previous posters have more or less said this, but there is NO SUCH THING as perfect intonation on the fiddle.
Try this little experiment. Tune up your fiddle as best you can. Now, put your first finger on the D string and play the D and G strings together - move your 1st finger around a little bit until you hear that nice resonance that tells you you've achieved a major 6th. Now, without moving your finger, switch to playing on the D and A strings. You will not have a perfect 4th. You will need to move your finger up the fingerboard a little bit to get a perfect 4th.
So which is the "correct" tuning for the E, the one you played with your G string or the one you played with your A string? The upshot is that tuning depends on context. You should be in tune with yourself, so that your fiddle resonates nicely (hence lazyhound's quarter-tone C's and F's - they produce a different resonance than a C natural or C# - Cape Breton fiddlers also do this a lot). But you should also be in tune with the people you're playing with. As usual, the important thing is to listen: intonation really is an agreement among friends!
(This is also why you should tune your fiddle to itself instead of using a tuner -once you've got your A in tune with the other folks you're playing with, of course. The fiddle resonates much better when tuned to perfect fifths).
I was thinking, why the A? I reckon that its cos when you tune up using the pegs, its easier resting the right side of the fiddle against the leg and tuning up to the A, the E often has a fine tuner... or....Ideas? I mean for trad, we play in D and G , why then work from the A string?
Bwahaha! That's hilarious jig. Just the thing for the fiddler who wants to learn to play everything flat. I wonder how hard you have to bow to buzz the frets.
I've played Mark Wood's 7-string fretted electric. Not my thing. Couldn't stand the frets. as for the fret buzz, I'd imagine that when one turns it up to "11" it doesn't much matter!
I think that became tradition because all stringed instruments in an orchestra have an A string, so it's convenient. You don't want to have to tune a violin to C or a viola to E.
(The oboe blows the A, gives it to the concertmaster, then is followed by the rest of the sections tuning to the A, including woodwinds. Sometimes the brass will tune with an additional note, Bflat, given again by the oboe.)
In old-time, I have found that folks will intentionally play a "wrong note" just for the tension it creates, or more aptly, the release of the tension after it is played and the notes return to "normal."
Every once in a while, someone posts something here of such profound resonance to the topic, it should shut everyone else up. (We wish) ( we really really feckin wish)
"I was thinking, why the A? I reckon that its cos when you tune up using the pegs, its easier resting the right side of the fiddle against the leg and tuning up to the A,"
Every once in a while, someone posts something here of such profound resonance to the topic, it should shut everyone else up. (We wish) ( we really really feckin wish)
no, listen, I really really really really really f u c k i n wish
“Playing out of tune is a fact of life.”
Nonsense!
Two completely different issues have become confused here.
(1) “Is it possible to avoid playing out of tune?” and
(2) “Does ‘out of tune’ mean ‘outside the equal temperament scale’?”
First (2):
Many classical string players play leading notes slightly sharp on purpose. Nordic fiddle music and especially their vocal music adheres mostly to the natural scale, and cannot be played adequately on equal temperament instruments. Often notes are played deliberately ‘off’ for effect, either in order to approximate the natural scale, or because discordant notes sound rather interesting, because they add something to the music, etc. (though these are NOT true quarter-tones, which never occur in European music). Many properly traditional fiddlers did not adhere to equal temperament, and many poor imitations do, and play consistently ‘in tune’ and are not worth listening to.
Now to the main issue, (1) Hitting the wrong note!!
Playing out of tune is totally avoidable: i.e., ‘playing a note other than the note one intended to play’. Most people admit that Kevin Burke’s intonation has much improved since the 70s. “Is he out of tune? Not for him.” Um, yes he was out of tune, it was not deliberate it was just sloppy. (But even then he was a much more interesting player than Paddy Glackin or Tommy Peoples could ever be. But he was occasionally lax on tuning!) There IS such a thing as correct intonation on the fiddle!
Out of tune classical violin is awful to hear and there is little excuse for it in concert. Irish traditional fiddlers rarely leave the first position, and they have no excuse whatever for playing out of tune. Saying that “playing out of tune is a fact of life” is just an excuse for laziness. Seriously, get it together!
(I’d say, put away the electronic tuner and sharpen up the old ears. Listen to some traditional Norwegian vocal music to give your ear the edge with regard to listening to intervals!)
In fact listen to anything by the Swedish singer Lena Willemark (lots of natural scale singing.) Does she sing out of tune? No! Why can't fiddlers follow her example?
Okay -- it really depends on how you frame what you are arguing.
I think the person who stated to me "playing out of tune is a fact of life" meant -- more that -- playing in mathematically perfect ratios for every note of every tune -- no matter what system you are attempting to adhere to -- is beyond the ability of 99% of humans.
That fiddle player -- the one who made the statement to me, is widely admired as one of the best; and frankly, my ear says to me that he gets the best tone of his violin I have ever heard in the playing of trad. (Having said that -- I suppose there really is no best -- there are probably others who occasionally play with comparable tone -- BUT it is a distinguishing characteristic of his playing -- not a happenstance 'event."
So after reading ALL the discussion here, studious, serious, not serious, argumentative, "biting," sarcastic, funny or otherwise.............
it seems to me it really depends on one's standard of measurement.
And my personal goal is simply, NOT to sound sloppy, and to avoid sounding out of tune as much as possible. Also, frankly, I aspire -- I look up to -- the quality of sound produced by this fiddler and teacher I have referred to. Now he made the comment "playing out of tune is a fact of life," in the context of a conversation we were having. I think what he meant was "you are not going to be mathematically perfect, in terms of every interval -- and therefore -- you will be playing out of tune." This player and teacher has, I think, spent a great deal of his life striving for the highest level of techncial ability and artistry on the instrument -- so I doubt he was inferring that one should just -- go right ahead and be sloppy as hell in your playing.
"benhall1 You do realize you as much as said that accordions & concertinas are out of tune & do not play traditional Irish music?"
Um ... yeah, OK, I was perhaps being just slightly facetious. However, it is true, as several posters have hinted, that trad singers, fiddlers, whistle players and anyone else who can - ie whose pitch is not rigidly fixed by their instrument - will play a scale that is not either an even temperament scale or in just intonation. Cs, Fs, Bs and sometimes other notes will be played just slightly out.
Many years ago I was taught the tune Lord MacDonald's
I won't say who by, 'cos I'll be accused of name-dropping, but he was a great old player. He got frustrated with me because I wouldn't play the 'c' at the start of the second bar high enough. He kept telling me to 'sweeten it', and hit me about the head with his bow 'til I did! After a certain amount of pain, I got it in the end, and it really brings the tune alive when you play the right note for that c, instead of just keeping to a conventional c that you might get in an even or just scale.
Following on from Fiddlebliss's post, there is a professional string quartet in the UK who have the cello and viola tune their C strings very slightly sharp (i.e. not quite a perfect 5th below the G). The idea is that the high"e" harmonic (the 4th one I think) of the C -string thereby comes exactly into tune with the E strings of the two fiddles, which it wouldn't do with perfect 5th tuning. Presumably this gives that little bit more resonance to the overall sound, especially when playing in the key of C major.
Frets on viols and lutes. These aren't integrated with the fingerboard as with other fretted instruments. The viol/lute frets are made of gut tied round the instrument's neck, so they can be moved to meet particular tunings and temperaments.
none of this alters the fact that when a fiddler is playing with an instrument tuned to equal temperament,he has to get his intonation the same as the Concertina/accordion,one good reason for being able to play c natural or a c sharp accurately
. the whole point about fiddle playing, is that it requires listening to your own intonation,with a concertina you press a button and there is your note ,that note canot be flattened /sharpened or adjusted.
so the responsibilty in a session lies with those people who can adjust [the fiddlers],it is they who have to compromise.
sessions are about people sharing music,it is counter to a spirit of a session, for a fiddler to deliberately persist in play c and aquarter,when everyone elsae is playing c#.
Intonation in a session is a compromise,so that the sum is better than the parts,that means when concertinas and accordions are present,fiddlers should play c natural and c# etc,otherwise the music sounds discordant. Dick Miles
Ahh, Dick, but what about the pipers!? When fiddling with a piper , depending on the player/instrument, I end up playing their C, one I would not play any other time.
Of course I agree when playing with a box or concertina I use their Notes[ as best as I can] but would you agree that fundamentally some instruments are more compatible than others?
This reminds me of the age old guitar in trad story where too much equal temperament can suck the life out of the tunes, depending obviously on what instruments are present.
And I would also say that to what degree does this slight difference matter in the free for all of a kicking session, as long as our D's and G's are the same....
Back to the A concert pitch thing; I thought to my self that the fiddlers insistence on tuning their A to a tuning fork was a remnant of its classical heritage rather than essential. Which is why I tune to D, not the classical A,
I allways thought it a bit strange that fiddlers often tuned to a little yoke in their pocket rather than the instruments in the session, and then complain that everyone is out of tune!
To my way of thinking, working on my intonation as an individual player has very little to do with the broader parameters for being "in tune" in a big "kicking" session. In a session, if there is a strong player (one or a few people who appear to have the capability of leading) -- or a piper --- (I haven't been in many sessions with a strong "box" player) they will establish the "center of the tone -- on top of which -- they'll probably be heard above and beyond anyone else playing. Everyone else will more or less fall in line with them. When I used to go to a lot of sessions consistenly, we had a strong piper in the area who often led the session -- and all the other instruments kind of blended with the sound of his pipes. Since he had a powerful rhythm and drive, everything else fell into place naturally around his playing. When there was not a strong player at the session that's when intonation perhaps became more of a problem ---- or when someone was VERY off -- not just a small bit off.
I figure if I'm going to work on playing my instrument, I should work with some kind of established standards for my intonation -- not practice one way one time, and a different way the next time. When I get in a session, if I can play more or less consistently in tune by myself, I'll at least try to fall in behind the strongest instrument and automatically try to adjust to be in tune with it. If I had never bothered to struggle with the issue of intonation (and I've heard some fiddle players who are just plain 'OFF' a lot of the time) then I wouldn't have the control that comes with waging that "struggle."
And pardon me for saying so, but for all the everlasting assertions that Irtrad is about rhythm rhythm rhythm -- it's also about melody. My favorite tunes have strong melody lines or beautiful phrases of melody interspersed with rhythmic passes -- and it's the melody that really gives the tune the "lift" -- to my ear. Otherwise, you could just play one note rhythmically for a whole Clare set -- or why bother having "tunes" anyway? PLUS, the variations that great players can add into their playing only stand out when they vary against something sensible. If the initial statement of the melody is dull and sounds off or "sour" -- then variations on it are going to be totally meaningless. If the statement of the melody is iniitally coherent, and has some DYNAMICS as well that give the melody line peaks of interest -- then variations on it will really stand out. SO -- for all the stylistic variations on what is a "C" etc., or what note should be tuned to ---- in the end --- for most players -- either you would say "that person has good intonation" or "that person has louzy intonation." And you're much more likely to want to listen to the person with good intonation. If there were two bars across the street from each other, and one featured a fiddle player with a regional style who was playing obviously out-of-tune a lot of the time -- and the other featured a fiddle player with a less distinct regional style who was playing in tune most of the time --- where would you be more likely to want to be drinking your Guinness?
well said fid42
We have to adapt to the changing times. the ear of the people is trained to recognise when the music sounds right/in tune. this does not mean EQ.T. many singers sing true, and singing is our aim through the instrument, right?
It was possible in the past, pre-mass music availability consumption to get away with rough intonation. this is not generally the case so much any more. The competition is a lot steeper!
.We are to some extent forced to compete with MTV, The bar is a lot higher. Good or bad is irrelevant. It is a fact of life in the western world today.
Tuning With Tinnitus or How To Use An Electronic Tuner
If you sometimes, for whatever reason, really need to rely on a tuner, start by getting a good one. The “in tune” range on various E-tuners is not always the same. Some are too generous.
To tune accurately with a tuner, you have to locate the boundaries of the “in tune” range and then carefully tweak the string to place it in the middle of the range. Tweak until it just barely shows sharp, then until it barely shows flat, then keep tweaking back and forth until you think it’s in the middle. You’ll be close enough to having equal-tempered open strings to not bother anybody. It’s a fair compromise for the real world, if that’s where you happen to live.
Well, may I politely disagree with part of yoru statement..."Good or bad is irrelevant." There's a lot of music around, and it comes 'at us' through a lot more kinds of technology -- so our ears are being "socialized" into recognition of a certain level of temperament, or "in-tuneness." I'm really not sure what you mean when you say "good or bad is irrelevant" though --
But certainly, the bar is higher, the competition is steeper. We've had session players on the fiddler in our area who don't have great intonation. They can come into a session and "power it" with their strong rhythmic quality and just knowing a lot of tunes, and being able to play through them confidently even if they are not playing with good intonation. However, I doubt that when concert tickets are being sold, or CD's of music are being sold -- those fiddlers are going to be reaping financial rewards. People are going to buy the recordings of "the cream of the crop" -- and pay to see in concert "the cream of the crop." I guess it's up to each one of us individually to set our own standards for playing. We have to decide what our own goals are, and how hard we are going to fight our limitations. But don't ask me to love and admire the playing of someone with poor intonation, because I won't. I'd rather be a little "hard on myself," and go too far in the direction of obsessing -- than go in the other direction. I don't enjoy playing my fiddle without "striving" to make the melody sing. Whether I can do that -- or how well -- is an open question -- but that's what I'm going to strive for. I probably could still "relax" my obsessing habit a little bit at this point, and it might even be good for me.
Certain fiddle styles obsess over intonation more than others. For example, the Clare style of fiddle playing is especially accepting to notes played slightly out of tune. This includes sliding up to notes, playing F#'s as F naturals for effect, etc. Listen to Paddy Canny in particular for this sort of thing. John Doherty plays out of tune fairly often, but he has such an interesting and unique style that it sort of fits. I'm inclined to say that it sounds intentional, but who knows. Plus, I'm not really sure how best to compare his style to any other player, so I'll just leave it at that. The Sligo style, on the other hand, seems to be mostly played in tune. If you listen to Coleman, he doesn't seem to be playing out of tune very often on purpose at all. But at the same time, I think if you really listen closely he doesn't play all his notes at exactly the mathmatically correct pitch (in terms of Hz). Musical descendents of Michael Coleman (Andy McGann, Brian Conway, and others) tend to slide up to or "bend" certain notes, and while these notes are technically out of tune I think the overall effect is that they are still playing in tune. Martin Hayes also does this, but his is so exaggerated that it's very obvious that he's doing it on purpose, so I've never heard anyone say that he plays out of tune. So I guess my point is that there are ways to play out of tune for effect occasionally while still sounding like you are playing in tune for the most part. It has a nice effect if you do it right and can pull it off. If not, it's going to sound incorrect, which is why some people's playing sounds out of tune.
I think the best indicator of your intonation is to play with a non-tuneable instrument such as an accordian, concertina, piano, etc. The pipes are possibly the worst instrument to try this with, since they are one of the most inconsistent instruments as far as tuning. If it sounds in tune overall, you're fine, even if you're playing certain notes out of tune, whether on purpose or on accident. It's really the overall effect that matters, not whether every individual note is perfectly in tune. If people cringe when you play two notes at the same time, you probably have some work to do. But most people's intonation problems aren't that bad, so I usually find it ok for people to play slightly out of tune, given that they know what they're doing and why.
"Tuning With Tinnitus or How To Use An Electronic Tuner
If you sometimes, for whatever reason, really need to rely on a tuner, start by getting a good one. The “in tune” range on various E-tuners is not always the same. Some are too generous. ..."
Bob Himself
Thank you for the advice. I do use an E-tuner (Korg CA-30 Chromatic tuner). But still try and use my ears to tune. I am trying to retrain them after a concussion damaged my middle ear a few years ago (A 3-hole punch fell on the crown of my head) .
If you can think of a tuner that is better than the one I mentioned please let me know. Perhaps offline so we don't go too OT. I will practice your advice.
As too why I am tuning to the A string, my teacher comes from a classical background and is second violin in a community orchestra. So that's her method. She is also in a duo that does Irish and Scottish music.
I'm not familiar with the Korg tuner, so I don't know how tight it's "in tune" range is. I think the Intelli-touch tuners are mostly okay, especially the latest model.
A few years ago I bought Korg Orchestral Tuner OT-12, when my old tuner "died." So this Korg tuner is COMPLEX. It will do anything short of play a Ceili dance. For me (who is not particularly techno) -- I feel like I have to go back to school and get a graduate degree to understand the thing. But it is good, no doubt about that. It allows you to tune to a tempered scale or a number of other options. It will play notes for you (in a manner of speaking). It allows you to use it on "AUTO" or manual, to calibrate it so A can be 440, 442 or anything your session desires. It has a red 'needle' which goes straight to the center line when you hit NOTE, and it shows you how many cents sharp or flat you are. I bought it at Chuck Levin's Washington Music for about $100. That was a few years ago. Now it probably costs $500 (thank you George Bush -- what a talented guy).
Not as fancy as Fid42's but it has may similar features. I just ordered a tuner clip for when I play at noisy outdoor events like faires and festivals.
Obsessing Over Intonation on the Fiddle
Obsessing Over Intonation on the Fiddle
For years, I've been practicing with the aid of a good instrument tuner because I was determined to play as much "in tune" as was possible for me.
I've heard it stated by a knowledgeable player that "playing out of tune is a fact of life." But I think the person meant "meaning a very little bit out of tune is a fact of life."
I just wonder, how close to PERFECT the best fiddle players usually remain, as they 'whiz' through reels. What about the ones who have had classical training and then become really good players of Irtrad? I wonder how they would 'register' if they stopped in the middle of a reel and checked out that "G" on the D string in a G reel. I find I have to constantly correct my 'E' from going a little bit sharp on E-minor reels that use the E/B rocking pattern. Of course -- this is when I'm playing without a reference point from a tuned piano or guitar.
But I wonder how much time other fiddle players here spend grappling with their intonation, and how 'perfect' they try to be. And what do you think the 'norm' is, for a fiddle player who would be considered reasonably good?
My intonation is pretty good, but it's certainly not perfect. I haven't taped my playing in a long time because I have to set up my new tape player with a 'mic.'
I wonder how much other fiddle players here obsess about their intonation.
I heard playrs who were grossly out of tune before I started playing the instrument (used to play the music on plectrums). When I bought my first fiddle, I knew I didn't want to sound out of tune, so I worked incredibly hard at getting decent pitch.
I'm always disheartened when I'm playing and think I'm playing 'in tune,' and then I check a note on the tuner and find out it's actually a little flat or a little sharp (unless it's the third of the scale).
Actually, I haven't heard the playing of Liz Knowles. I know she played classical music well before she started playing trad. I should get one of her CD's.
# Posted on January 14th 2008 by Fid42
Re: Obsessing Over Intonation on the Fiddle
"Playing a little bit out of tune is a fact of life," NOT "meaning" Again, some day I'll learn to proof my posts more carefully.
# Posted on January 14th 2008 by Fid42
Re: Obsessing Over Intonation on the Fiddle
what I do..
if playing with myself ( I don''t mean that the way it sounds)
I tune my A to a tuning fork, then tune the other strings to the 5th that they are..if you have been playing for years, you will know this
I f playing with others (again the disclaimer) I tune to the fix pitched A like the concertina or button box
and then I listen to myself...sometimes in a session after a couple pints,intonation can get a little sloppy...
but still listen
because others are getting a wee bit south too
in other words, I would learn to trust my ear...ditch the tuner for all the notes...just tune to an A (440, 442, 415, whatever) and start listening
when I was taking some lessons some years back (and yes, working on scales in 5th position, not that that has anything to do with intonation or anything) after a couple months my teacher said "so, what have you learned thus far"..
my reply was " I learned how to listen to myself"
she was pleased
# Posted on January 14th 2008 by Sunnybear
Re: Obsessing Over Intonation on the Fiddle
If you are decently musical, I think that intonation issues will tend to work themselves out over your first few years of playing, and that it will tend to be some other aspect of your playing that becomes your personal limiting factor. This was my own experience. In my case it was my bowing that needed, and continues to need, my dedicated attention. Perhaps what I am saying here about intonation would not apply to classical music with its multiple position and oddball key signatures, but for Irish traditional music I think it does. After a few years of playing, you have had your left hand sitting in first position playing the same notes millions of times, and unless you are deaf or extremely inattentive to your own playing, you will most likely have locked into reasonable intonation.
Playing the fiddle is like a game of whack-a-mole. Many things to simultaneously manage -- intonation, rhythm, bowing arm, bow hold, tone, etc. Since you have been playing for years, and your are obviously attentive to the issue of intonation, I would hazard a guess that the intonation mole may not be the one poking its head up right now for you.
If you have some sort of dissatisfaction with how your playing sounds, then you might be suspecting that your intonation is the primary cause of your unhappiness when really it's something else. I would recommend finding a player whose playing you respect -- this could be a teacher or just a musical acquaintance -- and get them to give you an honest assessment of what needs the most immediate attention in your playing.
If you are brave, post a link to an mp3 of your playing to thesession.org
# Posted on January 14th 2008 by crazy_fingerz
Re: Obsessing Over Intonation on the Fiddle
There teally isn't a way you can be perfectly in tine in any measurable mathematical sense. Tuning is an art, not a science. Top world class piano players travel with their own piano tuner, someone who tunes pianos how they like it. It's all down to your ear and your preference.
And the more you play, the more your preference becomes your own the less tolerant you are of others.
When I was a kid my favourite record of all time was Kevin Burk's If the Cap Fits. But there are some tracks on it where I now hear him out of tune. Is he out of tune? Not for him.
One of the great skills in small ensemble playing, string quartet in particular, is matching what you require from intonation with you fellow musicians.
# Posted on January 14th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Obsessing Over Intonation on the Fiddle
Oh, if only I could play "out of tune" like Kevin Burke....
# Posted on January 14th 2008 by mickray
Re: Obsessing Over Intonation on the Fiddle
Llig hit it on the head:
"Is he out of tune? Not for him."
Padraig o'Keeffe played airs with at least 3 positions for F. Which one was in tune? Listen to Johnny Doherty playing the Mountain Road, then Julia Clifford, then Denis Murphy - do they sound like their fingers are all in the same place for those F# segments, or their Ds? Paddy Cronin puts his F#s somewhere crazy on the Dairymaid, and so does Tommy Peoples, and Cs are another issue entirely. Being "out of tune" isn't just a fact of life, or a moot point - to some extent it's a stylistic, regional or personal, identifier.
--DtM
# Posted on January 14th 2008 by Dan the Man
Re: Obsessing Over Intonation on the Fiddle
Good intonation just means that it sounds good, not that the finger is in some exact magical spot on the string. Think about it, there are an infinite number of ways to play a note that is in tune, because there are an infinite number of intervals between any two spots on the string no matter how close together those two spots are. Intonation is never "perfect."
Good intonation means getting within a certain (narrow) range of pitch. But there's a lot of variation possible in that small spot. Like DtM said, it can be used for expression.
# Posted on January 14th 2008 by Marklar
Re: Obsessing Over Intonation on the Fiddle
"Crazy FIngers" --- yeah -- I am working mainly on my bowing and rhythm -- strengthening my bow arm which will help my rhythm. But I do practice with the tuner on as a matter of habit. Maybe I should try "tuning down" the worry button.
I know my rhythm is what needs the most attention -- and it's getting the attention.
Being of the female gender and not having done dedicated strength training for "upper body" -- I didn't realize for quite a long time how much my lack of real muscular strength in my arms was probably affecting my bowing. Now I know it; and like all other aspects of playing Irish music decently on the fiddle, it takes work. I think women who started playing fiddle or violin at a young age build the strength up without thinking about it as much. Whatever muscles are stressed in bowing reels, I wasn't using those muscles consistently enough for other work to build strength. I'm not young any more, and I fall into the category of those who grapple with stiffness, soreness and limitation due to not being 'young.' But I think, maybe playing Irtrad on the fiddle will keep me young -- I'm not going to stop until my body falls apart. I have some cervical disc impingement and it's troubling, but -- I'm not sure it hurts any more when I play the fiddle than when I don't. My orthopedist once said to me that playing the fiddle "might be good for it." I'm hoping it is. I don't have much tolerance for nonsteroidals.
# Posted on January 14th 2008 by Fid42
Re: Obsessing Over Intonation on the Fiddle
Every practice session, I play one or two tunes slowly, really paying attention to the intonation. I've played for decades. To me, this feels like enough. My thought is to give it reasonable attention, then let it fall into place by itself; it will, and it does.
I had the priceless opportunity to spend a fair amount of time with Buddy McMaster at Rocky Mountain Fiddle Camp in 2001. He said several times that he never played a tune the same way twice. I rather think he was the same way about tuning. Certainly, he wasn't obsessive. He'd tune once, and I wouldn't see him do it again for at least the next couple of hours. And the whole time, he played like -- well, Buddy McMaster >wg<.
# Posted on January 14th 2008 by cathrynb
Re: Obsessing Over Intonation on the Fiddle
I don't think the tuner is going to help you, and it might even hurt you. If it's calibrated for even temperment (like a piano), it's automatically going to be wrong for fiddle, which is just tuned (tuned to itself). Even if it's calibrated for just tuning, you're still relying on your eyes and not your ears to tell you when you're in tune, so you're not training yourself to really hear the pitches you're playing.
Your fiddle itself will tell you when you're in tune. In first position, the third finger on any string is an octave above the open string below it. The first finger is an octave below the open string two strings above. You can always check for resonances that way and using the intervals like thirds and fifths and fourths. Other posters here can tell you about listening for harmonic overtones, which I can't explain too well.
Crazy_fingers---whack-a-mole is the best analogy! That's exactly what it's like!
# Posted on January 14th 2008 by kennedy
Obsessing Over Intonation
Disclaimer ~ I am not a fiddle player.
If your session has a box player I would go with that.
You play with other instruments (unless you leave the tuner on accidentally). & if you have a piper that becomes a subject all it's own.
Anyway here is my bit from the wind section. On Low D whistle (& flute) the in tuneness varies. We try to tune to the pitch (note & octave) we are most likely to play. What we want to be dead on is the tonal center & as best we can the bell tone. Each note played should be in tune we played but we can vary how we get to the note.
Acoustically there is a pitch as we 'attack' the note ~ a pitch as the note is played 'sustain' & a pitch following 'decay'
Sorry for crashing the thread. Hope my perspective is well received.
# Posted on January 14th 2008 by Random_notes
*
flutes can vary how we "find our way" to the exact pitch.
Slow it down & think of airs.
# Posted on January 14th 2008 by Random_notes
Re: Obsessing Over Intonation on the Fiddle
All suggestions and comments are well-receilved. I think the phrase 'tonal center' is what to concentrate on, for me. It's possible that I waiver slightly above and below the center but am close to it most of the time; so maybe I shouldn't worry about wavering off 'the center' too much. It's certainly easier when there are reference instruments. I learned to play behind the closed door of my apartment, alone, as an adult. It was actually suggested to me many years ago, by a guitar accompaniest who is also a piano tuner by trade, to get a tuner and work with it. He had told me "all your positions are close, but you can improve -- get a tuner and practice playing to it." So I did!! And it helped me but maybe I should practice without it every other time I play -- at this point.
# Posted on January 14th 2008 by Fid42
Re: Obsessing Over Intonation on the Fiddle
Yeah, if you're trying to stay dead-center with the tuner you're probably worrying too much. Beside, tuners can be wrong...the important thing is the sound.
A good way to check your intonation is to play along with a solo fiddle recording by a good player. If you can stay on pitch with the other guy, your intontation is fine. If you're off by any significant amount, it will be easy to hear.
# Posted on January 14th 2008 by Marklar
Re: Obsessing Over Intonation on the Fiddle
I play the flute. I recently "walked out" on a session (of which I had been a long=standing participant) populated by a fiddle player who is OBSESSED with perfect pitch to the point of stopping mid-tune and loudly plucking strings. He's a piano tuner. Being a junior member of this session, I've fumed for years over his rudeness, but just couldn't take it anymore. Those who play the flute know the dynamics of the instrument, and being out 2 or 3 cents for the first set or two is forgivable. Not with this bloke. After one set, he wants an "a", and says I'm flat, move the slide in a bit. I've been through this exercise many times before so I DO NOT move the tuning slide, but act like I do! Your fine now says he. How can a normal human care obsessively that a woodwind instrument will be that far out of tune after playing one set of tunes? And if he does, give us a break here, this ain't Carnegie Hall. I've burned a bridge, but what I've left on the other side probably isn't worth playing ITM with. My message here is: cut the flute players a bit of slack, at least for the first few sets of tunes.
# Posted on January 14th 2008 by jtrout
Re: Obsessing Over Intonation on the Fiddle
yes,playing 'in tune' is one of the tricky things about any stringed instrument.
what it all boils down to constant aural vigilance-whether you play on your own or with other people.
i can't see tuners helping too much-it's better to check with your open strings,all things being equal but even that won't work with some tunes/keys/modes.
as llig intimated above,tuning is also relative to who you are and where you come from-those of us with a classical background have to watch out for instant judgements for instance.
in short,rely on your own ears rather than a fixed tuner,imo.
it's a constant battle though.
# Posted on January 14th 2008 by biggus dave
Re: Obsessing Over Intonation on the Fiddle
what it all boils down to IS constant aural vigilance-whether you play on your own or with other people.
sorry,it's quite late...
# Posted on January 14th 2008 by biggus dave
Re: Obsessing Over Intonation on the Fiddle
Even later ...
no two top classical violinists will have identical perceptions of intonation. Sometimes their intonation is distinctive enough to identify their playing on that alone - Yehudi Menuhin was a case in point.
We're all human and the position changes of the finger tips on the strings only need to shift by a small fraction of a millimetre to cause an observable change in pitch. But that's no excuse for being sloppy about it and not trying!
# Posted on January 14th 2008 by lazyhound
Re: Obsessing Over Intonation on the Fiddle
I think the drift I'm getting here is that......somewhere between obsession and lazinesss.....there must be a happy eardrum.
# Posted on January 14th 2008 by Fid42
Re: Obsessing Over Intonation on the Fiddle
More specifcally, it's about balancing what your ear (not some device, or someone else's ear - unless you really really suck) with what you are phsyically capable of.
If you have a good ear, then it's relatively straight forward to bring your fingers into line.
A problem can occur though when your ear is not as good as you thought it was. Have a conversation about some famous recording your mates will be familiar with and discuss where you think the intonation wavers. Checking tuning against devices is no good. A bloke on here says he checks his intonation against a tin whistle. duh.
As far as flute players go, I'll always cut a beginner some slack. Or an experienced player some time to warm up. But in the end there is no excuse. I know it's not easy to play a flute or whistle in tune, but that's no excuse. I'm pretty hopeless on my overton, the intonation is all over the place and it's not the instrument, a good player makes it sound perfect. A flute player freind of mine was pretty hopeless for quite some time, but other aspects of their playing was improving and she's a freind so due slack was given. Her intonation is lovely now.
# Posted on January 14th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Obsessing Over Intonation on the Fiddle
I agree that practising to an electronic tuner is counter-productive. If you were to end up playing in perfect equal temperament, it would not sound right. The fiddle has microtonal capabilities, so why not exploit them. Subtle gradations in pitch, I think, are an essential expressive medium in Irish (and many other forms of) traditional fiddling. Caoimhin O Raghallaigh speaks eloquently on the personal and regional variation in intonation on an episode of Canuinti Ceoil on TG4 from late last year http://www.tg4.ie/Webt/webt.htm (I'm not sure if this episode is still available for viewing online).
I have been playing fiddle for 4 years, after a decade or so of playing fretted instruments. I still have a very long way to go yet before I can consistently produce the exact note I want to hear from my fiddle, But I would not trust an electronic tuner over my own ear to judge when I hit the 'right' note.
# Posted on January 14th 2008 by ragaman
Re: Obsessing Over Intonation on the Fiddle
I have to admit I obsess about my intonation. But then If you don t, on some instruments, you run the risk of playing loudly and out of tune. The bottom line is that your instrument needs to harmonise with itself, Check these figures out, yeah yeah, I know. you don't need physics to play the fiddle, but they demonstrate the problems of using equal tempered tuner;
In just intonation in the key of C [261. 63 hz], the note A is 436.04Hz, and D is 294.33Hz.
So the pitch of the true notes in a scale refer to the original starting note.
So in the Key of D 294.33Hz, A would be 441.495Hz.
in D 293.66 A is 440.5
so you see, if we play in D 293.66, concert pitch, the A has to be tuned sharp to 440..50
AS we mostly play around D and G in Irish trad ,The A442 standard is possibly more suitable, giving us D 294.6667[.Using concert pitch C261.33Hz as the starting point rather than A]
As fiddlers we have to adjust our note so they feel good for our ears. Training the ears there for is very important. If we are used to listening to equal temperament, then that is what will sound right. If we are used to listening to a just scale , such as the whistle, then that will sound right an d equal will sound off.
Train your ears by listening to traditional instruments like the whistle and pipes, that way, it might not sound 'right' to someone bought up listening to equal temperament, but thats Ok eh?.
By the way Llig. I never said I check my intonation against a whistle, why would I , I simply suggested a newcomer can use a whistle as a first step in their scales. Doh Reh mi, you know?
# Posted on January 14th 2008 by jig
Re: Obsessing Over Intonation on the Fiddle
I can't play in tune neither on an electric piano.
# Posted on January 14th 2008 by gian marco
Re: Obsessing Over Intonation on the Fiddle
jig wrote "By the way Llig. I never said I check my intonation against a whistle"
no, actually you said that you tune to one...what's the difference?
# Posted on January 14th 2008 by Sunnybear
Re: Obsessing Over Intonation on the Fiddle
"The A442 standard is possibly more suitable, giving us D 294.6667[.Using concert pitch C261.33Hz as the starting point rather than A] " posted by jig above.
How come the C at A442 is lower that the C at A440, and where does the D294.6667 come from ?
# Posted on January 14th 2008 by david_h
Re: Obsessing Over Intonation on the Fiddle
Yeah, I blow an A then a D then G then an E,or rather I get the whistler to do so. then i fine tune.
I didnt say it was?
I said a just scale's notes are relative to the starting note. what we call that note, or its frequency are irrelevant , it is a matter of proportion, right? D294.666667 comes from A442 divided by 1.5 or rather, the other way round.
Not 1.49831 the ratio of equal temperament.
I hasten to add I am not a physicist, Its the idea that matters rather than fractions and decimal places. I just did a bit of research, Im sure there is someone who has a far greater grasp of the depths of the issue.
# Posted on January 14th 2008 by jig
Re: Obsessing Over Intonation on the Fiddle
'Yeah, I blow an A then a D then G then an E,or rather I get the whistler to do so. then i fine tune.'
it saves time if you just get one note(say an 'A') to tune.then it's relatively easy to tune a fiddle.unless of course you want to paly with a whistle.
the last whistle player i had to play with was a nightmare to tune to-ask for an 'A' and you could take your pick from about half a dozen frequencies!
and yes,gian marco-i find it hard playing with any sort of piano as far as intonation is concerned!
# Posted on January 14th 2008 by biggus dave
Re: Obsessing Over Intonation on the Fiddle
OK jig.
The maths of your first bit getting to A441.95 works out fine (A440 e-> C261.63 j->D294.33 j->A441.95) though going via the C seems a bit convoluted. Then you skip the C and get to A440.5 (A440 e-> D293.66 j-> A440.5) but don't explain the route. You then use yet another route to get from A442 to D294.6667 (A442 j-> D294.667) but say you are using C and quote a value that is not what you say it is.
Are you trying to make this look harder than it is...
# Posted on January 14th 2008 by david_h
Re: Obsessing Over Intonation on the Fiddle
Of course i want to play with whistlers! This is Irish music after all!! I suppose it does depend on the whistler, and whistle, but hey, I live and play in the west of Ireland!
# Posted on January 14th 2008 by jig
Re: Obsessing Over Intonation on the Fiddle
Not at all David, Please explain it all a bit clearer if you can. I just play trad
but where did I quote C as anything other than 261.33? Please clarify if I made some errors, its a long time since I went to school. I am certainly no expert in this matter {as you can tell
}
# Posted on January 14th 2008 by jig
Re: Obsessing Over Intonation on the Fiddle
Jig, when you said "In just intonation in the key of C [261. 63 hz] ". That's where.
# Posted on January 14th 2008 by david_h
Re: Obsessing Over Intonation on the Fiddle
Jig on intonation
"find a reference , say the tin whistle, and play each note slowly"
"a simple method of achieving good intonation and tone without the benefit of a teacher. I suggested, they get a teacher, however scales with reference to a tin whistle will do the job."
And I'm just wondering, if one of your pupils came to you saying that they were worried that they may be "Obsessing Over Intonation on the Fiddle", would your response be to blind them with all this science stuff which even blinds you?
# Posted on January 14th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Obsessing Over Intonation on the Fiddle
Ah ok david, fair enough, all these numbers and stuff.
So can you explain for us in a clearer more concise and accurate manner?
Llig Im simply fed up with your inane comments questions and insults, I have better things to do than spend any more time with you discussing issues where you appear to have your head in the sand. Come up with some thing more interesting perhaps?
# Posted on January 14th 2008 by jig
Re: Obsessing Over Intonation on the Fiddle
There's nothing wrong with *obsessing* over intonation, per se - it might be necessary to achieve your goal. But obsessively trying to imitate someone or something, be it another fiddler or a superstrobe tunertron with 0.005% tolerance, seems to me to be a waste of time and energy.
# Posted on January 14th 2008 by ragaman
Re: Obsessing Over Intonation on the Fiddle
...it's not so much the note you play as what you do with it that counts. If, perchance, a note comes out a touch sharper or flatter than you intended, you can make it make sense in the context of the tune by where you go next, even within the space of that one note. It's one of my goals to be able to do that - if an unachievable one for me.
# Posted on January 14th 2008 by ragaman
Re: Obsessing Over Intonation on the Fiddle
Intonation is an agreement among friends.
# Posted on January 14th 2008 by reenactor
Re: Obsessing Over Intonation on the Fiddle
Jig. I think TheMuse did it well enough above. The numbers don't really help.
OK. If you have a tin whistle that sounds really good when played against a D drone, but you don't have much ability to change the pitch of the notes then it will usually sound better playing tunes in D (without a drone) than tunes in Edorian, expecially if those tunes in Edorian are the sort that sound good over a E drone.
My cloth ears tell me that and the numbers, along with a peek at the tuner, tell my why. So I got a flute. I was reading this discussion to learn something from fiddlers.
# Posted on January 14th 2008 by david_h
Re: Obsessing Over Intonation on the Fiddle
"Intonation is an agreement among friends."
Brilliant.
Every once in a while, someone posts something here of such profound resonance to the topic, it should shut everyone else up. (We wish)
# Posted on January 14th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Obsessing Over Intonation on the Fiddle
Sorry, E drone? from where?
# Posted on January 14th 2008 by jig
Re: Obsessing Over Intonation on the Fiddle
God bless every fiddle-player who obsesses about intonation !
And, from a fretted-instrument-player; "Thank you".
Those sessions when you start getting your tuner out every other set because you think it's YOU out of tune; flute players, blowing, adjusting their slide, blowing again; whistle-players trying to warm their instruments up to catch up with whatever pitch the fiddler has strayed to..........
Thank you for making the effort.
# Posted on January 14th 2008 by Guernsey Pete
Re: Obsessing Over Intonation on the Fiddle
Intonation in the classical sense is not right for trad fiddle. If you listen to a lot of the older players (and some current players) they all have their own ideas for pitching notes. Some of course just don't have a great sense of pitching and are more concerned with rhythm and drive. Others consistently play the same pitch and that pitch is slightly sharp or flat compared to what is considered 'in tune' these days. This is particularly true of notes around f, b and c, also d and g to some extent.
If you get a chance to listen to Paddy Canny, Paddy Fahey and James Byrne to name but three you'll hear these kind of sounds. I think players just like certain pitches to get a mood for a tune. Slightly sharpening or flattening a note can do wonders for expressive purposes.
# Posted on January 14th 2008 by The Transcriber
Re: Obsessing Over Intonation on the Fiddle
and sorry to all accordionists, concertinists, pianists and others who are tuned to equal temperament but all these instruments are late additions to the tradition and have in a sense imposed equal temperament on ITM where it didn't exist before. The more people forget this the closer we are to losing a really great aspect of our tradition.
So in sessions, yeah it's fine to tune to the accordion, but fiddlers please don't aim for equal temperament when you're playing solo, experiment with the outside pitches and you might find something really interesting.
# Posted on January 14th 2008 by The Transcriber
Re: Obsessing Over Intonation on the Fiddle
and guernsey pete, I'm primarily a fretted instrument player, I understand your point but the best thing to do in sessions is to ditch the tuner and just use your ear to tune to the main instrument in the session, that needs to be defined at least, everyone has to tune to one person.
# Posted on January 14th 2008 by The Transcriber
Re: Obsessing Over Intonation on the Fiddle
Take one mandolin and an electronic tuner.
Tune one pair of strings slightly flat.
Using the tuner, tune one string up until the tuner just shows the note is 'in tune'
Tune the second string until just before the tuner shows it is sharp. You now have two strings which, according to the tuner, are in tune.
And everytime I've tried this with an electronic tuner,I've been able to hear a difference between the strings - not just a little bit, but quite noticeable.
If you are obsessing about intonation, learn to trust your ears.
# Posted on January 14th 2008 by c.g.
Re: Obsessing Over Intonation on the Fiddle
"just before the tuner shows it is sharp"
?
Is it flat?
# Posted on January 14th 2008 by Random_notes
Re: Obsessing Over Intonation on the Fiddle
Irish music has always had its own microtones ("trick" or "lonesome" notes"), which are deliberately played quarter-tones typically lying between a C and C# or F and F#. There are some tunes that are spoiled if you don't play the quarter-tone, one example being "The Pullet and the Cock" (all the "c's" in the B-part are played a quarter-tone sharp) - see http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/1148 for further details.
I have an idea that some of the controversy over some of O'Neill's transcriptions ("should that be an F-nat or an F#") could be due to the fact that they were transcribed from live playing, and a player who used trick notes (or perhaps just played out of tune) would inadvertently confuse the issue.
If you want to hear unusual (but very accurate) intonation from the classical world it's worth getting hold of a recording of music by the Czech composer Alois Haba who lived about 100 years ago. He concentrated most of his efforts into composing music in quarter-tones and sixth-tones for string quartets and similar ensembles. On a first listen, this microtone music sounds weirdly out of tune, but your ear soon becomes accustomed to the idiom and then you accept it on its own terms. There was an LP of Haba's music out in the '60s on the old Supraphon label.
# Posted on January 14th 2008 by lazyhound
Re: Obsessing Over Intonation on the Fiddle
I have tinitus 24/7. Does anyone have any ideas how to cope withat concerning intonation? I sometime disrust my ears because of it.
Thanks
# Posted on January 14th 2008 by Pirate-Fiddler
Re: Obsessing Over Intonation on the Fiddle
I have no clue about tinitus. Sorry.
As far as playing in tune with yourself/your instrument, try checking your intonation against your open strings. For example, your G on the D string should be in tune with your open G string (one octave higher of course), and the A on the D string should be the same as the open A string. E, F, F# also sound a particular way with the neighboring open strings. G and E are a major 6th, E and A are a perfect fourth and so on... This technique will help you to remain in tune with yourself and bring out some of your best tone by exploiting the resonances of your instrument. When you hit the G on the D string in tune with your open G, the G string will vibrate sympathetically and sound great! This may break down slightly with microtonal inflections, but it's a great way to work on intonation and knowing exactly where your fingers are coming down on the strings!
# Posted on January 14th 2008 by jasonb
Re: Obsessing Over Intonation on the Fiddle
Even my classical teachers weren't this obsessive over intonation. At some point you need to quit worrying about the details or else be buried by them.
Arrrrrrrrh Pirate-Fiddler! Arrrrrrh! Arrrrrh! I've noticed lots of times that arguments over pitch are caused by people that are comparing the different upper partials produced from two different instruments (say a piano's A vs. a bowed violin A) as opposed to the fundamental and getting confused. It could be that you're now predisposed to hearing more of the fundamental. Google "hearing test pitch" - there are sites that have interactive tests where you can measure how well you can differentiate between micro tones and how you compare to others that have taken the test.
# Posted on January 14th 2008 by monkey440
Re: Obsessing Over Intonation on the Fiddle
"I have no clue about tinitus. Sorry."
Pirate-Fiddler, if that sounded mean or dismissive, I definitely didn't mean it that way. I hope you find the answer to your question!
# Posted on January 14th 2008 by jasonb
Re: Obsessing Over Intonation on the Fiddle
Lazy hound,if I was playing my concertina with you,youwould have to choose between c natural or c sharp,because my concertina doesnt do c and a quarter,if you didnt and you continued to play quarter tone sharp or flat of me ,it would be musical cacophony,
By the end of the evening our temperaments would not be equal or equable,.in fact our tempers and temperament would probably be mean.Dick Miles
# Posted on January 14th 2008 by Rufus Jameson
Re: Obsessing Over Intonation on the Fiddle
"Irish music has always had its own microtones ("trick" or "lonesome" notes"), which are deliberately played quarter-tones typically lying between a C and C# or F and F#."
Wow, thanks for that little tidbit. I didn't know that and know that I do it certainly clears up some things.
jtrout: we seem to have a dulcimer player like yours. I just don't sit near him. Acoustics at our session are bad enough you can hardly hear if you sit across from someone.
I have tinnitus, too. I have a hard time trusting my hearing when trying to tune to others in a noisy place. I didn't think it might have something to do with the tinnitus, but maybe so.
# Posted on January 14th 2008 by sbhikes
Re: Obsessing Over Intonation on the Fiddle
I'm in the process of developing a new tool for assessing intonation. It's a program for displaying pitch on a scrolling graph as you play. If you play sharp, the trace is colored red; if you play flat it's blue; if you're right on it's white. You can use it as a tuner one note at a time, but you can also play a passage at tempo and see which notes were out of tune.
You can choose what temperament to compare your pitches to. Equal temperament and just temperament are two of the choices, but there are more. Beginning fiddlers tend to be out of tune no matter what intonation they compare to. More advanced players might like to use the program not for a good/bad judgment, but as a tool to visualize and compare.
The tool also turns out to be useful for transcription.
I'd be delighted if some people from this forum would try it out and let me know what they think. The program is called Intonia. You can get a previous of it at http://www.intonia.com .
At some point in the future, it will be a commercial product distributed via shareware, but for now I'm giving it free to beta testers who will give me feedback on how they use it. I'm asking testers to join a Yahoo group so I know who you are, so I can distribute program updates (and they're frequent), and to encourage discussion about the program. Point your browser at http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/Intonia/ and click "Join this Group". If you don't already have a Yahoo ID, you'll need to register. When you receive confirmation of your group membership, you'll receive instructions for downloading the program.
# Posted on January 14th 2008 by JerryAgin
Re: Obsessing Over Intonation on the Fiddle
"I have no clue about tinitus. Sorry."
Pirate-Fiddler, if that sounded mean or dismissive, I definitely didn't mean it that way. I hope you find the answer to your question"
jasonb1985
I didn't think you were being dismissive or mean at all. I do something similar to what you describe above except I start with the open A to open E. My teacher has told me that if ithe fiddle is in tune it should sound like the beginning of Twinkle Twinkle. Then the rest of the tuning is like you said.
The trouble is sometimes I am spot on others times I'm sharp or flat. It isn't consistant. I don't know if it is me or the tinitus throwing me off. Same thing happens singing.
# Posted on January 15th 2008 by Pirate-Fiddler
Re: Obsessing Over Intonation on the Fiddle
[Irish music has always had its own microtones ("trick" or "lonesome" notes"), which are deliberately played quarter-tones typically lying between a C and C# or F and F#."
Wow, thanks for that little tidbit. I didn't know that and know that I do it certainly clears up some things.
jtrout: we seem to have a dulcimer player like yours. I just don't sit near him. Acoustics at our session are bad enough you can hardly hear if you sit across from someone.
I have tinnitus, too. I have a hard time trusting my hearing when trying to tune to others in a noisy place. I didn't think it might have something to do with the tinnitus, but maybe so.]
really, on what authority is this,
it certainly does not when you are playing a fixed note instrument like a concertina,button accordion,melodeon,piano accordion.
while some fiddlers may have deliberately played a quarter tone out,others I have known have done it ,because their intonation was poor,and they couldnt differentiate between c and c sharp,as is the case with many beginners.
intonation on the fiddle is important if you are going to play with free reed instruments [harmonicas, because they can bend notes, excepted] pianos etc.Dick Miles
# Posted on January 15th 2008 by Rufus Jameson
Re: Obsessing Over Intonation on the Fiddle
Pirate, I might get jumped on[ as normal!
but an old trick, very old in fact is to mark the correct positions on the side of the finger board that you can see, or rather get your instructor to do so. using tipex, it wears off soon enough, A travelling fiddle teacher in Clare used to bang tacks into the neck as guides, so what I suggest has roots in the Irish fiddle tradition.
After a while you get used to putting your fingers down in the correct place and dont need it any more. You can then concentrate on hearing the finer points of tuning.
# Posted on January 15th 2008 by jig
Re: whistle down the wind...
just a quick one for the record-i do like playing with whistles that are in tune-it was just a fairly recent experience,that's all.
one of my favourite albums is the first Mary Bergin one.
a noble instrument indeed!
# Posted on January 15th 2008 by biggus dave
Obsessing Over
Jig Im not jumping your case.
There is no right or wrong way to play trad.
It only matters that the players are craicing when it happens.
# Posted on January 15th 2008 by Random_notes
Re: Obsessing Over Intonation on the Fiddle
O
M
G
!!!
# Posted on January 15th 2008 by benhall.1
Obsessing
Then again on the internet all bets are off.
# Posted on January 15th 2008 by Random_notes
Re: Obsessing Over Intonation on the Fiddle
Or;http://www.frettedfiddle.com/ ..
# Posted on January 15th 2008 by jig
~
Just think they said you didn't have a sense of humor.
# Posted on January 15th 2008 by Random_notes
Re: Obsessing Over Intonation on the Fiddle
My very first fiddle teacher used to put tape on the fingerboard where your fingers were supposed to go. Mind you, he only did that with the people with whom he had completely given up trying to get to hear the notes. They always gave up fiddle soon after.
# Posted on January 15th 2008 by benhall.1
Re: Obsessing Over Intonation on the Fiddle
And yes, the scale used for Irish (and other) trad is not the same as the classical scale. Which does indeed present a problem when playing with fixed reed instruments. Generally not one that's too difficult to get over, though.
You either compromise ... or just accept that the concertina player is always going to be out of tune.
# Posted on January 15th 2008 by benhall.1
Re: Obsessing Over Intonation on the Fiddle
The previous posters have more or less said this, but there is NO SUCH THING as perfect intonation on the fiddle.
Try this little experiment. Tune up your fiddle as best you can. Now, put your first finger on the D string and play the D and G strings together - move your 1st finger around a little bit until you hear that nice resonance that tells you you've achieved a major 6th. Now, without moving your finger, switch to playing on the D and A strings. You will not have a perfect 4th. You will need to move your finger up the fingerboard a little bit to get a perfect 4th.
If you're feeling ambitious, you can read up on the mathematics of why this is so:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mathematics_of_musical_scales#Mathematics_of_musical_scales
(it might also illuminate the earlier posts about A442 and C two-sixty-whatever).
So which is the "correct" tuning for the E, the one you played with your G string or the one you played with your A string? The upshot is that tuning depends on context. You should be in tune with yourself, so that your fiddle resonates nicely (hence lazyhound's quarter-tone C's and F's - they produce a different resonance than a C natural or C# - Cape Breton fiddlers also do this a lot). But you should also be in tune with the people you're playing with. As usual, the important thing is to listen: intonation really is an agreement among friends!
(This is also why you should tune your fiddle to itself instead of using a tuner -once you've got your A in tune with the other folks you're playing with, of course. The fiddle resonates much better when tuned to perfect fifths).
# Posted on January 15th 2008 by fiddlebliss
Re: Obsessing Over Intonation on the Fiddle
I was thinking, why the A? I reckon that its cos when you tune up using the pegs, its easier resting the right side of the fiddle against the leg and tuning up to the A, the E often has a fine tuner... or....Ideas? I mean for trad, we play in D and G , why then work from the A string?
# Posted on January 15th 2008 by jig
Intonation on Fiddle
benhall1 You do realize you as much as said that accordions & concertinas are out of tune & do not play traditional Irish music?
# Posted on January 15th 2008 by Random_notes
Re: Obsessing Over Intonation on the Fiddle
http://www.frettedfiddle.com/
Bwahaha! That's hilarious jig. Just the thing for the fiddler who wants to learn to play everything flat. I wonder how hard you have to bow to buzz the frets.
But hey, it worked for the viol (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viol).
# Posted on January 15th 2008 by Marklar
Intonation
fiddlebliss you got it right!
# Posted on January 15th 2008 by Random_notes
Re: Obsessing Over Intonation on the Fiddle
I've played Mark Wood's 7-string fretted electric. Not my thing. Couldn't stand the frets. as for the fret buzz, I'd imagine that when one turns it up to "11" it doesn't much matter!
# Posted on January 15th 2008 by wyogal
Re: Obsessing Over Intonation on the Fiddle
"I was thinking, why the A? "
I think that became tradition because all stringed instruments in an orchestra have an A string, so it's convenient. You don't want to have to tune a violin to C or a viola to E.
# Posted on January 15th 2008 by Marklar
A 440
Orchestras used to tune to the drones of Highland Bagpipes.
Which is a sharper A than the modern 440Hz
# Posted on January 15th 2008 by Random_notes
Re: Obsessing Over Intonation on the Fiddle
(The oboe blows the A, gives it to the concertmaster, then is followed by the rest of the sections tuning to the A, including woodwinds. Sometimes the brass will tune with an additional note, Bflat, given again by the oboe.)
In old-time, I have found that folks will intentionally play a "wrong note" just for the tension it creates, or more aptly, the release of the tension after it is played and the notes return to "normal."
# Posted on January 15th 2008 by wyogal
Re: Obsessing Over Intonation on the Fiddle
"Intonation is an agreement among friends."
Brilliant.
Every once in a while, someone posts something here of such profound resonance to the topic, it should shut everyone else up. (We wish) ( we really really feckin wish)
# Posted on January 15th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Obsessing Over Intonation on the Fiddle
Sorry, E drone? from where?
# Posted on January 15th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Obsessing Over Intonation on the Fiddle
"a simple method of achieving good intonation is refer to a tin whistle."
# Posted on January 15th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Obsessing Over Intonation on the Fiddle
"mark the correct positions on the side of the finger board that you can see, or rather get your instructor to do so. using tipex,"
# Posted on January 15th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Obsessing Over Intonation on the Fiddle
O
M
G
!!!
# Posted on January 15th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Obsessing Over Intonation on the Fiddle
"I was thinking, why the A? I reckon that its cos when you tune up using the pegs, its easier resting the right side of the fiddle against the leg and tuning up to the A,"
# Posted on January 15th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Obsessing Over Intonation on the Fiddle
O
M
G
!!!
# Posted on January 15th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Obsessing Over Intonation on the Fiddle
"Intonation is an agreement among friends."
Brilliant.
Every once in a while, someone posts something here of such profound resonance to the topic, it should shut everyone else up. (We wish) ( we really really feckin wish)
no, listen, I really really really really really f u c k i n wish
# Posted on January 15th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Obsessing Over Intonation on the Fiddle
Well, it sure didn't shut you up, did it llig
# Posted on January 15th 2008 by Marklar
Re: Obsessing Over Intonation on the Fiddle
Really? what happens if your on your own? A bit like the sound of one hand clapping?
# Posted on January 15th 2008 by jig
Re: Obsessing Over Intonation on the Fiddle
It did shut me up actually, all I did was copy paste stuff from above
# Posted on January 15th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Obsessing Over Intonation on the Fiddle
I think your 5th "really" sounded a little sharp. You must have been anticipating the following expletive. It's a keeper though...
# Posted on January 15th 2008 by monkey440
Re: Obsessing Over Intonation on the Fiddle
“Playing out of tune is a fact of life.”
Nonsense!
Two completely different issues have become confused here.
(1) “Is it possible to avoid playing out of tune?” and
(2) “Does ‘out of tune’ mean ‘outside the equal temperament scale’?”
First (2):
Many classical string players play leading notes slightly sharp on purpose. Nordic fiddle music and especially their vocal music adheres mostly to the natural scale, and cannot be played adequately on equal temperament instruments. Often notes are played deliberately ‘off’ for effect, either in order to approximate the natural scale, or because discordant notes sound rather interesting, because they add something to the music, etc. (though these are NOT true quarter-tones, which never occur in European music). Many properly traditional fiddlers did not adhere to equal temperament, and many poor imitations do, and play consistently ‘in tune’ and are not worth listening to.
Now to the main issue, (1) Hitting the wrong note!!
Playing out of tune is totally avoidable: i.e., ‘playing a note other than the note one intended to play’. Most people admit that Kevin Burke’s intonation has much improved since the 70s. “Is he out of tune? Not for him.” Um, yes he was out of tune, it was not deliberate it was just sloppy. (But even then he was a much more interesting player than Paddy Glackin or Tommy Peoples could ever be. But he was occasionally lax on tuning!) There IS such a thing as correct intonation on the fiddle!
Out of tune classical violin is awful to hear and there is little excuse for it in concert. Irish traditional fiddlers rarely leave the first position, and they have no excuse whatever for playing out of tune. Saying that “playing out of tune is a fact of life” is just an excuse for laziness. Seriously, get it together!
(I’d say, put away the electronic tuner and sharpen up the old ears. Listen to some traditional Norwegian vocal music to give your ear the edge with regard to listening to intervals!)
# Posted on January 15th 2008 by neddiescotus
Re: Obsessing Over Intonation on the Fiddle
In fact listen to anything by the Swedish singer Lena Willemark (lots of natural scale singing.) Does she sing out of tune? No! Why can't fiddlers follow her example?
# Posted on January 15th 2008 by neddiescotus
Re: Obsessing Over Intonation on the Fiddle
Okay -- it really depends on how you frame what you are arguing.
I think the person who stated to me "playing out of tune is a fact of life" meant -- more that -- playing in mathematically perfect ratios for every note of every tune -- no matter what system you are attempting to adhere to -- is beyond the ability of 99% of humans.
That fiddle player -- the one who made the statement to me, is widely admired as one of the best; and frankly, my ear says to me that he gets the best tone of his violin I have ever heard in the playing of trad. (Having said that -- I suppose there really is no best -- there are probably others who occasionally play with comparable tone -- BUT it is a distinguishing characteristic of his playing -- not a happenstance 'event."
So after reading ALL the discussion here, studious, serious, not serious, argumentative, "biting," sarcastic, funny or otherwise.............
it seems to me it really depends on one's standard of measurement.
And my personal goal is simply, NOT to sound sloppy, and to avoid sounding out of tune as much as possible. Also, frankly, I aspire -- I look up to -- the quality of sound produced by this fiddler and teacher I have referred to. Now he made the comment "playing out of tune is a fact of life," in the context of a conversation we were having. I think what he meant was "you are not going to be mathematically perfect, in terms of every interval -- and therefore -- you will be playing out of tune." This player and teacher has, I think, spent a great deal of his life striving for the highest level of techncial ability and artistry on the instrument -- so I doubt he was inferring that one should just -- go right ahead and be sloppy as hell in your playing.
# Posted on January 15th 2008 by Fid42
Re: Obsessing Over Intonation on the Fiddle
"benhall1 You do realize you as much as said that accordions & concertinas are out of tune & do not play traditional Irish music?"
Um ... yeah, OK, I was perhaps being just slightly facetious. However, it is true, as several posters have hinted, that trad singers, fiddlers, whistle players and anyone else who can - ie whose pitch is not rigidly fixed by their instrument - will play a scale that is not either an even temperament scale or in just intonation. Cs, Fs, Bs and sometimes other notes will be played just slightly out.
Many years ago I was taught the tune Lord MacDonald's
http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/507
I won't say who by, 'cos I'll be accused of name-dropping, but he was a great old player. He got frustrated with me because I wouldn't play the 'c' at the start of the second bar high enough. He kept telling me to 'sweeten it', and hit me about the head with his bow 'til I did! After a certain amount of pain, I got it in the end, and it really brings the tune alive when you play the right note for that c, instead of just keeping to a conventional c that you might get in an even or just scale.
Can't be done on a concertina or such ...
# Posted on January 15th 2008 by benhall.1
Re: Obsessing Over Intonation on the Fiddle
Following on from Fiddlebliss's post, there is a professional string quartet in the UK who have the cello and viola tune their C strings very slightly sharp (i.e. not quite a perfect 5th below the G). The idea is that the high"e" harmonic (the 4th one I think) of the C -string thereby comes exactly into tune with the E strings of the two fiddles, which it wouldn't do with perfect 5th tuning. Presumably this gives that little bit more resonance to the overall sound, especially when playing in the key of C major.
Frets on viols and lutes. These aren't integrated with the fingerboard as with other fretted instruments. The viol/lute frets are made of gut tied round the instrument's neck, so they can be moved to meet particular tunings and temperaments.
# Posted on January 15th 2008 by lazyhound
Re: Obsessing Over Intonation on the Fiddle
none of this alters the fact that when a fiddler is playing with an instrument tuned to equal temperament,he has to get his intonation the same as the Concertina/accordion,one good reason for being able to play c natural or a c sharp accurately
. the whole point about fiddle playing, is that it requires listening to your own intonation,with a concertina you press a button and there is your note ,that note canot be flattened /sharpened or adjusted.
so the responsibilty in a session lies with those people who can adjust [the fiddlers],it is they who have to compromise.
sessions are about people sharing music,it is counter to a spirit of a session, for a fiddler to deliberately persist in play c and aquarter,when everyone elsae is playing c#.
Intonation in a session is a compromise,so that the sum is better than the parts,that means when concertinas and accordions are present,fiddlers should play c natural and c# etc,otherwise the music sounds discordant. Dick Miles
# Posted on January 15th 2008 by Rufus Jameson
Re: Obsessing Over Intonation on the Fiddle
Ahh, Dick, but what about the pipers!?
When fiddling with a piper , depending on the player/instrument, I end up playing their C, one I would not play any other time.
Of course I agree when playing with a box or concertina I use their Notes[ as best as I can] but would you agree that fundamentally some instruments are more compatible than others?
This reminds me of the age old guitar in trad story where too much equal temperament can suck the life out of the tunes, depending obviously on what instruments are present.
And I would also say that to what degree does this slight difference matter in the free for all of a kicking session, as long as our D's and G's are the same....
Back to the A concert pitch thing; I thought to my self that the fiddlers insistence on tuning their A to a tuning fork was a remnant of its classical heritage rather than essential. Which is why I tune to D, not the classical A,
I allways thought it a bit strange that fiddlers often tuned to a little yoke in their pocket rather than the instruments in the session, and then complain that everyone is out of tune!
# Posted on January 15th 2008 by jig
Re: Obsessing Over Intonation on the Fiddle
To my way of thinking, working on my intonation as an individual player has very little to do with the broader parameters for being "in tune" in a big "kicking" session. In a session, if there is a strong player (one or a few people who appear to have the capability of leading) -- or a piper --- (I haven't been in many sessions with a strong "box" player) they will establish the "center of the tone -- on top of which -- they'll probably be heard above and beyond anyone else playing. Everyone else will more or less fall in line with them. When I used to go to a lot of sessions consistenly, we had a strong piper in the area who often led the session -- and all the other instruments kind of blended with the sound of his pipes. Since he had a powerful rhythm and drive, everything else fell into place naturally around his playing. When there was not a strong player at the session that's when intonation perhaps became more of a problem ---- or when someone was VERY off -- not just a small bit off.
I figure if I'm going to work on playing my instrument, I should work with some kind of established standards for my intonation -- not practice one way one time, and a different way the next time. When I get in a session, if I can play more or less consistently in tune by myself, I'll at least try to fall in behind the strongest instrument and automatically try to adjust to be in tune with it. If I had never bothered to struggle with the issue of intonation (and I've heard some fiddle players who are just plain 'OFF' a lot of the time) then I wouldn't have the control that comes with waging that "struggle."
And pardon me for saying so, but for all the everlasting assertions that Irtrad is about rhythm rhythm rhythm -- it's also about melody. My favorite tunes have strong melody lines or beautiful phrases of melody interspersed with rhythmic passes -- and it's the melody that really gives the tune the "lift" -- to my ear. Otherwise, you could just play one note rhythmically for a whole Clare set -- or why bother having "tunes" anyway? PLUS, the variations that great players can add into their playing only stand out when they vary against something sensible. If the initial statement of the melody is dull and sounds off or "sour" -- then variations on it are going to be totally meaningless. If the statement of the melody is iniitally coherent, and has some DYNAMICS as well that give the melody line peaks of interest -- then variations on it will really stand out. SO -- for all the stylistic variations on what is a "C" etc., or what note should be tuned to ---- in the end --- for most players -- either you would say "that person has good intonation" or "that person has louzy intonation." And you're much more likely to want to listen to the person with good intonation. If there were two bars across the street from each other, and one featured a fiddle player with a regional style who was playing obviously out-of-tune a lot of the time -- and the other featured a fiddle player with a less distinct regional style who was playing in tune most of the time --- where would you be more likely to want to be drinking your Guinness?
# Posted on January 15th 2008 by Fid42
Re: Obsessing Over Intonation on the Fiddle
well said fid42
We have to adapt to the changing times. the ear of the people is trained to recognise when the music sounds right/in tune. this does not mean EQ.T. many singers sing true, and singing is our aim through the instrument, right?
It was possible in the past, pre-mass music availability consumption to get away with rough intonation. this is not generally the case so much any more. The competition is a lot steeper!
.We are to some extent forced to compete with MTV, The bar is a lot higher. Good or bad is irrelevant. It is a fact of life in the western world today.
# Posted on January 15th 2008 by jig
Tuning With Tinnitus or How To Use An Electronic Tuner
If you sometimes, for whatever reason, really need to rely on a tuner, start by getting a good one. The “in tune” range on various E-tuners is not always the same. Some are too generous.
To tune accurately with a tuner, you have to locate the boundaries of the “in tune” range and then carefully tweak the string to place it in the middle of the range. Tweak until it just barely shows sharp, then until it barely shows flat, then keep tweaking back and forth until you think it’s in the middle. You’ll be close enough to having equal-tempered open strings to not bother anybody. It’s a fair compromise for the real world, if that’s where you happen to live.
# Posted on January 15th 2008 by Bob himself
Re: Obsessing Over Intonation on the Fiddle
Well, may I politely disagree with part of yoru statement..."Good or bad is irrelevant." There's a lot of music around, and it comes 'at us' through a lot more kinds of technology -- so our ears are being "socialized" into recognition of a certain level of temperament, or "in-tuneness." I'm really not sure what you mean when you say "good or bad is irrelevant" though --
But certainly, the bar is higher, the competition is steeper. We've had session players on the fiddler in our area who don't have great intonation. They can come into a session and "power it" with their strong rhythmic quality and just knowing a lot of tunes, and being able to play through them confidently even if they are not playing with good intonation. However, I doubt that when concert tickets are being sold, or CD's of music are being sold -- those fiddlers are going to be reaping financial rewards. People are going to buy the recordings of "the cream of the crop" -- and pay to see in concert "the cream of the crop." I guess it's up to each one of us individually to set our own standards for playing. We have to decide what our own goals are, and how hard we are going to fight our limitations. But don't ask me to love and admire the playing of someone with poor intonation, because I won't. I'd rather be a little "hard on myself," and go too far in the direction of obsessing -- than go in the other direction. I don't enjoy playing my fiddle without "striving" to make the melody sing. Whether I can do that -- or how well -- is an open question -- but that's what I'm going to strive for. I probably could still "relax" my obsessing habit a little bit at this point, and it might even be good for me.
# Posted on January 15th 2008 by Fid42
Re: Obsessing Over Intonation on the Fiddle
by that, I mean our judgement of whether it is good or bad is irrelevant, like it or not we have to deal with it.
Im with you on this one fid,
# Posted on January 15th 2008 by jig
Re: Obsessing Over Intonation on the Fiddle
Certain fiddle styles obsess over intonation more than others. For example, the Clare style of fiddle playing is especially accepting to notes played slightly out of tune. This includes sliding up to notes, playing F#'s as F naturals for effect, etc. Listen to Paddy Canny in particular for this sort of thing. John Doherty plays out of tune fairly often, but he has such an interesting and unique style that it sort of fits. I'm inclined to say that it sounds intentional, but who knows. Plus, I'm not really sure how best to compare his style to any other player, so I'll just leave it at that. The Sligo style, on the other hand, seems to be mostly played in tune. If you listen to Coleman, he doesn't seem to be playing out of tune very often on purpose at all. But at the same time, I think if you really listen closely he doesn't play all his notes at exactly the mathmatically correct pitch (in terms of Hz). Musical descendents of Michael Coleman (Andy McGann, Brian Conway, and others) tend to slide up to or "bend" certain notes, and while these notes are technically out of tune I think the overall effect is that they are still playing in tune. Martin Hayes also does this, but his is so exaggerated that it's very obvious that he's doing it on purpose, so I've never heard anyone say that he plays out of tune. So I guess my point is that there are ways to play out of tune for effect occasionally while still sounding like you are playing in tune for the most part. It has a nice effect if you do it right and can pull it off. If not, it's going to sound incorrect, which is why some people's playing sounds out of tune.
I think the best indicator of your intonation is to play with a non-tuneable instrument such as an accordian, concertina, piano, etc. The pipes are possibly the worst instrument to try this with, since they are one of the most inconsistent instruments as far as tuning. If it sounds in tune overall, you're fine, even if you're playing certain notes out of tune, whether on purpose or on accident. It's really the overall effect that matters, not whether every individual note is perfectly in tune. If people cringe when you play two notes at the same time, you probably have some work to do. But most people's intonation problems aren't that bad, so I usually find it ok for people to play slightly out of tune, given that they know what they're doing and why.
# Posted on January 15th 2008 by FidDLe01
Re: Obsessing Over Intonation on the Fiddle
"Tuning With Tinnitus or How To Use An Electronic Tuner
If you sometimes, for whatever reason, really need to rely on a tuner, start by getting a good one. The “in tune” range on various E-tuners is not always the same. Some are too generous. ..."
Bob Himself
Thank you for the advice. I do use an E-tuner (Korg CA-30 Chromatic tuner). But still try and use my ears to tune. I am trying to retrain them after a concussion damaged my middle ear a few years ago (A 3-hole punch fell on the crown of my head) .
If you can think of a tuner that is better than the one I mentioned please let me know. Perhaps offline so we don't go too OT. I will practice your advice.
As too why I am tuning to the A string, my teacher comes from a classical background and is second violin in a community orchestra. So that's her method. She is also in a duo that does Irish and Scottish music.
I am really loving peoples' post to this topic!
# Posted on January 15th 2008 by Pirate-Fiddler
Re: Obsessing Over Intonation on the Fiddle
I'm not familiar with the Korg tuner, so I don't know how tight it's "in tune" range is. I think the Intelli-touch tuners are mostly okay, especially the latest model.
# Posted on January 16th 2008 by Bob himself
Re: Obsessing Over Intonation on the Fiddle
A few years ago I bought Korg Orchestral Tuner OT-12, when my old tuner "died." So this Korg tuner is COMPLEX. It will do anything short of play a Ceili dance. For me (who is not particularly techno) -- I feel like I have to go back to school and get a graduate degree to understand the thing. But it is good, no doubt about that. It allows you to tune to a tempered scale or a number of other options. It will play notes for you (in a manner of speaking). It allows you to use it on "AUTO" or manual, to calibrate it so A can be 440, 442 or anything your session desires. It has a red 'needle' which goes straight to the center line when you hit NOTE, and it shows you how many cents sharp or flat you are. I bought it at Chuck Levin's Washington Music for about $100. That was a few years ago. Now it probably costs $500 (thank you George Bush -- what a talented guy).
# Posted on January 16th 2008 by Fid42
Re: Obsessing Over Intonation on the Fiddle
Yes, I have that model too,its handy for when I need to tune a concertina reed.
excellent peice of equipment.
# Posted on January 16th 2008 by Rufus Jameson
Re: Obsessing Over Intonation on the Fiddle
This is the tuner I use:
http://www.musiciansfriend.com/product/Korg-CA30-Chromatic-Tuner?sku=210527
Not as fancy as Fid42's but it has may similar features. I just ordered a tuner clip for when I play at noisy outdoor events like faires and festivals.
Here's the one Fid42 and dickens mentioned:
http://www.aardvark-music.co.uk/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=670
It's still about 100 BP!
# Posted on January 17th 2008 by Pirate-Fiddler
Re: Obsessing Over Intonation on the Fiddle
Didn't Grapelli say "It don't mean a thing if it ain't played in tune" or some such...
# Posted on January 23rd 2008 by hpinson