you could'nt do much better than this site;
home.comcast.net/~saustin98/lark
There is a myth that there are no chord patterns to go with the tunes. This is a myth. There are numerous possibilities within the structure of the tune, However the job is to find these possibilities, not impose a pre conceived idea on them. The idea is to play the tune within the chords . I dont know what experiance paddy has in backing, and working out tunes, but I have plenty.
The theory behind the site's choice appears to be clear and precise ,from my perusal. I highly recomend following them to the letter for at least your first 20-30 tunes. perhaps then you will have a greater understanding and be able to create your own interpretation's.
I dont suggest, that a beginner who just walks in and guess-timates can do any justice to the tunes, without either knowing lots of the tunes or learning from some one who understands the music .
Good luck and welcome .
There are of course chords that will work with every tune. If you are beginning, you need to know the key for starters, and a chord chart is helpful to give finger positions, and tell you what chords basically, belong in the keys. There should come a time where you leave that behind and can improvise chords or partial chords or some noting on your own. But in the beginning, very helpful. It's also good hand training, you need to build strength up in your chording hand especially, guitar is rough on the hands, esp. a steel strung one.
That said, the knowledge of the key and the fingering positions for the chords by themselves will never make a decent backer. It's been said a million times, learn the tunes. Learn the structure of the tunes. The more tunes you learn, the more the structure of the rest will make sense by ear. You have to work at it, maybe even harder than a melody player if you are to get good at it, because you need to know the tune or be able to sense the structure of it on the fly, keep that in your head, yet do something else with your fingers. Backing is more instinctual rather than sticking to set notes and chords all the time, and there are many options as to what you can do, rather than playing note by note. It gets vague and confusing for people learning to back.
In teaching guitar, it is getting drummed more and more into me that it is so much easier to teach a guitarist a tune, say to flatpick it ( a good way to learn it!) than to teach backing. Sure it's easy to show chords and tell someone what key it's in, or if it is in key of D for example but starts on a G chord etc. But that it not backing, it's mechanical. It is very vague when you want to teach someone to improvise and catch things on the fly, or put some emotion into the right hand, which gives the moods, expression, etc. I am finding it is almost like having to teach someone how to smell or feel. I think the instinctual part and the feeling comes from immersion into and love of the music, period, and takes a while.
Everyone on any instrument goes through this "mechanical" phase, you have to, to learn where the hands go etc. What makes a musician though, is someone who gets beyond that, who hits their stride, can play fluidly and quickly, and very important too, puts emotion in their music. You can't rush it, you have to go through the beginnings, and if you love it enough to really work at it, that's when it gets beyond the mechanics of it. But you need to learn the mechanical moves first, so do go find some good charts, and people recommend the Fiddler's Fake Book often because I believe it has chords wrtten on top of the tunes.
Once you have the motions down, record your session, go home and practice to it until you know the common tunes. It's always good to pratice to a recording of the people you'll ultimately go out to play with because you'll know their sets.
And don't forget...this should be fun. Not work, don't get frustrated you can't fly on the thing right away, it's OK. Patience, practice, and love what you're doing. Make sure the guitar is relatively easy to play, if it hurts too much or too long, go get it set up properly, it makes the world of difference. try not to grip the meck too hard, learn to play without the death grip, it will slow you down.
I am going through stage one right now with the harp... like a guitar wasn't heavy enough to carry around, LOL. I am on the mechanics, the hand exercises, had it nine days now, and know I will not sound even like the simplest player for a good while, but each little baby step is fun, as it should be.
My self, I am in the begining stages [still!] of learning the tenor violin, or piccalo cello, basically a 3/4 size cello, tuned EADG. The scale length is the same as the guitar and banjo, I play my scales of course, attempt a few tunes but when playing with a fiddler i play chords/ double stops . It gives a great sound together, but when i play the tunes along with the fiddle its not really so effective. Drones and sharp rhythm sound good.. I find learning new instruments great fun, it keeps my enthusiasm levels high, continually forces me to be adaptable . Of course I do try to keep a common thread running through so that there is crossover, ie fiddle bowing helps the piccalo, right hand and banjo the left. Keep the faith.
"I dont know what experiance paddy has in backing.."
When I said there is 'none', I meant no website. I didn't say anything about chords themselves not being suitable. I just was saying that working them out yourself is better because having them on a page doesn't do the whole justice of backing much justice in my opinion. By the way, you do have more experience than me at backing but I still have opinions.
Absolutely paddy, I whole heartedly support your right to hold and stand by your opinion. I however saw this site the other day, set up by a fellow sessioner. I have seen so many weird chord patterns associated with trad that If I find one that accords with the theory and practice then I am more than happy to recomend it.
I dont think guitarists should just approach this music without either knowing the chord patterns inherant within the tune. or the tune., preferably both. So to suggest someone with perhaps no experiance of trad should somehow figure them out is, I think a step to far. However you are entitled to your opinion. This bit of theory explains my approach to backing;
The DORIAN and AEOLIAN modes sound minor because they start with a minor 3rd, like the MINOR SCALE--however, they do not have a leading tone. The DORIAN mode is by far the more common of the two. If you hear an Irish tune that sounds minor, it is likely to be in DORIAN. To make sure, listen to the 6th note, it is a 1/2 step higher in DORIAN than it is in AEOLIAN. For instance, E DORIAN (see above) has C#, while E AEOLIAN would have all the same note except for C natural.
The MIXOLYDIAN mode sounds major, but also doesn't have a leading tone. Sometimes, it is described as having a flat 7th note, because it is a 1/2 step lower than a leading tone would be in the MAJOR SCALE.
Another important characteristic of how these modes are used are their harmonic implications. That is, the tunes are built around certain chords, and these sets of chords vary with each mode.
MAJOR (mode 1) tunes are usually built primarily around the I-IV-V chords, the three major chords of any given major key. In D Major for instance, the chords would be D Maj, G Maj, and A Maj.
Tunes in other modes are typically built around TWO CHORDS only, which are a step apart. DORIAN and AEOLIAN (modes 2 and 6) will have a minor "home" chord and a major "contrast" chord a step below. MIXOLYDIAN (mode 5) tunes will have two major chords. For instance, for modes of the D Major scale:
Thanks for the kind words about our site (mentioned in Bodatcha's entry above).
And Jig is right - those are starting chords. You can't go too horribly wrong playing them as-is, but they're meant to be tweaked. You'll quickly learn what chord pairs have many notes in common, and therefore can usually substitute well for each other (like Bm for D, Am7 for C, etc). And the note(s) that IS different between the two chords gives the tune the spice that makes it yours.
The problem with substitution, unless it is very carefully and intelligently done is that the new notes within the chord are not in the tune, you are harmonising, a western art music concept not appropriate within trad. Also you can easily create discord say substituting an Em for a G. G includes GBD, Em includes EGB, the E and th D are discordant. same is you substitute C for Em in a Dorian reel, it is harmonically incorrect , the C clashing with the B present in the tune. . I hasten to add I have not yet come across an Am reel with F in it.
I see it done , this C, accept that it is discordant, do it on purpose, ok, but not because you think it should be there. It is a substitution. This music is MODAL [the bits im talking about] you can not bring your American/ classical structures in and automatically assume it will work.
Steves substitutions above will work if the motes you bring in are in the tune. I say this again and I cant think of anything more important in backing trad. If the note is not in the tune it should not be in the chord, Unless, you clearly understand you are working outside the boundaries of the Tradition.
We are free to do what we will with the music, but hey, lets get it right eh?
Mmm?
Doesn't Tam Lin have an F in it - right there at the beginning of the second bar. OK, it's not "trad", by which, jig, I take you to mean it was written in the mists of time but I think your idea of trad is very limited.
I find that sticking to the chords that fit as best as possible the notes being played leads to very illogical progressions that don't particularly enhance the tune (certainly not harmonically). You might just as well play the tune or play your bodhran.
For me the chords with which a backer chooses to accompany a tune should stand on their own and not just sound like a random selection.
If your going to use chords to back a tune then you have to consider them in an harmonic context. They are adding harmony after all.
Too many guitar players will say they cannot accompany a tune because they couldn't see/read the chords. To me it's about listening, and, as irisnevins says, learning the tunes.
Yeah you are right, As i said that I thought to myself, there must be one or two but they are the exceptions to the rule and have FA and C in the melody.
Yes I agree my 'idea ' of trad is very limited, and? It is a specific style of music after all, with set forms, traditions, etc etc. I am happy working within those boundaries. Though I assure you I stretch them in my own way, just not harmonically.
For your information, not a boast, I Get big grins of approval from people I play with, including luminaries from the scene. I know my stuff is right cos I finds my chord patterns duplicated over the table .. I play by ear In sessions and generally have no problems accompanying any trad tunes, though some key changes can still throw me for a moment. I have been doing it for 25yrs and intend to do so for another25 god willing.
A chord is the notes of the arpeggio in a block form. play with the tune, not against it, find what is in the tune, dont add superficial stuff muddying the waters so to speak. Backers can have bad reputations in trad for doing this. lets work on authentic accurate settings for our chords so we can keep the tune players happy.
I agree that a limted harmonic approach might be suitable/desirable for very old tunes, written pre classical era. But there is a huge mass of tunes that has been written since the classical era and these tunes are bound to be infected with classical ideas of harmony in their melodic construction.
And even with old tunes - it's great hearing what Shetland accomps do with them, but that is the tradition there.
I have to say I haven't been accompanying tunes that long - 3 out of 35 years playing - so I bow to your undoubted experience.
Fair enough point Donald, There must be, but would they not be composed within those traditional boundaries? . Obviously O'Carolans stuff is a different matter.
The theory behind the chords within the structure of modal music is clear. I hasten to add I did not approach my music in this manner. I was taught the chord patterns by my mentor.
Once again I am not saying you cant or shouldnt do something . just that when you decide to do something or not, you have the facts there to aid your decision.
I have allways played trad, bar a few years a playing punk rock bass So approach my music from that perspective.
But really I dispute that tunes written since the classical era are necessarily influenced by classical music. Why would they be? What possible route of transference , pre recording would it take? this is a time when travel by foot [or bike] was the only means of transport accessible. I dont see teams of travelling classical musicians travelling round Ireland playing to the country folk.
Try this..
Go to a tune here on this site.
Download it (or the Midi if you can't read dots.., or find a recording of it)
Tune up, pick out the notes, learn it, play along - then do that again to another version of the same recording...
Voila.
Thats not even the best hands on approach, but its a start, and you will learn more for yourself, rather than reading from a site.
In a tune like Tam Lin, where it hits that type of note that's kind of running up a scale (or down), whether an F, Fsharp, or whatever odd thing is tossed in, especially learn those tunes! It's the best way to cope with them.
Where these fast changes happen you can, instead of hitting a full chord, note the note (on a low string) along with the melody player, use it to sort of walk into the next chord. A bit tricky for a beginner, but ultimately easier and quicker once used to doing it than full chording, especially for some of the more unpredictable tunes that are all over the place. It helps you not get left in the dust!
Again,,, the one thing I keep telling people struggling with backing, is to listen to the good piano players. Try it. Find a CD that has a piano backer, some of the old ones, Kathleen Collins with Jimmy Mahan (I think that's who backed her) , or Andy McGann and Joe Burke with Felix Dolan on piano.
I really think, though some people look at me like I lost my mind when I say it, and know I am getting repetitive but feel it is important, that guitar players can learn a whole lot by listening to the good piano players, and I will stick by that again and again no matter who says what, and no matter whether you fingerpick or strum. There is so much to learn from them.
They keep more to the melody than most guitar players. They toss lots of notes or parts of the melody or a counter melody in, they create moods. They vamp a bit, then come back in strong with the melody, then lay back again, they know how to weave in and out and around the tune. they know how to stay under the tune and bring out the parts the melody players want to stress, they ease into a chord, the music is not chopped up into chord sections that keep repeating, they segway in and out,... I really found it fascinating when I really began to listen, and yes, it is very adaptable to guitar. It may be contrary to anything anyone else writes here about guitar backing, but give it a listen at some point. Listen to the fluidity of it.
This, if you are a beginner, may not compute at the moment, but hang onto the thought, you might like to try it later. I do fully understand the need for the charts at a certain point in the learning. It's good to practice them, it's the bones of backing, it makes your hands strong too...you can flesh it out as you gain more control. At that point, it can become exhilerating. Being both a backer and a melody player, I have to say I love the semi unstructured, instinctual nature of backing more than tune playing. It's also more challenging and often harder when you get into it at a certain depth. Hopefully I will never have to choose one or the other, but the backing would win. And the challenge of it partly is to make sure no one is focused on you, it's all about making the tune and the melody player shine. it's your job, but in many players' books a very important one, and if you can make them sound better that's what they love the best, and that's OK.
Yeah Iris, Couldnt agree more, I started as a bass player , well actually playing with others, and to some extent I think I still approach my music from that perspective, even as a fiddler, in company , my aim, apart from sounding good is to make the others sound better, using chords, drones, etc. Same as a guitarist, I live and play amongst fiddlers, who are a lot better than me, sure I can hold a tune, in tune, but after 15yrs I recognise my limitations when playing with masters. . So yes the idea,job, is to make the others sound better, this I am pleased to say I generally do well enough, With a solid but changing, sensitive yet forcefull, style that although simple [in a way] chordally, accurately reflects the melody. Mind when playing by ear, pickin up the tunes on the fly, I cannot be so sure I have exactly the right chord pattern, Its a matter of listening, sitting back behind the tune and supporting it and the players.
In any case practice makes perfect...or at least a lot better, but you have to love it or it won't work, you won't feel it on that gut level. A fair amount of people I have met over the years go to guitar or other backing because of the social aspects and want to be part of the group. They usually are coming in from folk music, folk singing, where maybe this is possible. Quite a few have drifted in and then out because they figure ITM is the same deal. It isn't, people take this music as seriously as any classical player, it's their life, even if it's not their day job, it is their life and where their heart is. Each note, chord and putting in the work to get it right is of major importance to many, as well as having a great time. We sall know, we've all gotten "that look" when we are getting something wrong, LOL!
Anyway, immersion, love of the music, will be the inspiration to work at it. Enjoy each baby step too, don't be frustrated that you don't have it perfectly in a week or two. I keep telling myself that about the harp too, LOL!
Hey, I got the medal for the most improved harp player at the Gaelic college in CB the week I attended in 1996. Not hard though since I started from zero, so my improvement must have been infinite!
DonaldK.... I am most improved on harp, started 11 days ago! Started from zero, just a love for it. Having played fingerstyle guitar for eons has likely helped, but the harp is sort of upsidedown or backwards or sideways to how the guitar is strung up! So a little confusing, but it's happening all right! Lovely instrument,
Yeah, fingerpicking and a bit of musical knowledge certainly helps with the harp. But if you're already a musician you pick up things so much more quickly than a musical novice when taking up a new instrument. That said it hasn't helped my memory, cos it was 2006 I was at the Gaelic College!
Guitar not got enough strings to tune Iris
I play sometimes with a friend who plays a nylons strung harp, and I play the nylon strung guitar, great combination. The Harp. beautiful instrument,
Jig.... Guitar didn't have enough strings, AND it didn't weigh enough either. had to correct all that!
Playing fingerstyle guitar, sa least is a head start for two hand coordination, even though my brain wants to do things backwards. The finger exercises are really helpful though.
Donough... I am fully strung out now. The truly bad thing about the harp is that is is right out there looking at you all the time, so there are many harp breaks. I work at home, so am now lagging behind due to the thing!
It'll stay home a good long while... not up for public humiliation yet!! It's really soothing and relaxing as rumored though. No wonder people get addicted to it.
chords for backing the tunes
chords for backing the tunes
does anyone know any website that gives u the chords for backing the tunes ,help!
# Posted on January 13th 2008 by pdubliner
Re: chords for backing the tunes
lots here...
http://home.comcast.net/~saustin98/lark/
# Posted on January 13th 2008 by bodatcha
Re: chords for backing the tunes
there is none. use your ear.
# Posted on January 13th 2008 by PaddyCmusic
Re: chords for backing the tunes
rephrased: there is none that will do it justice. you should try working out chords yourself.
# Posted on January 13th 2008 by PaddyCmusic
Re: chords for backing the tunes
Ear.com
# Posted on January 13th 2008 by Donough
Re: chords for backing the tunes
you could'nt do much better than this site;
home.comcast.net/~saustin98/lark
There is a myth that there are no chord patterns to go with the tunes. This is a myth. There are numerous possibilities within the structure of the tune, However the job is to find these possibilities, not impose a pre conceived idea on them. The idea is to play the tune within the chords . I dont know what experiance paddy has in backing, and working out tunes, but I have plenty.
The theory behind the site's choice appears to be clear and precise ,from my perusal. I highly recomend following them to the letter for at least your first 20-30 tunes. perhaps then you will have a greater understanding and be able to create your own interpretation's.
I dont suggest, that a beginner who just walks in and guess-timates can do any justice to the tunes, without either knowing lots of the tunes or learning from some one who understands the music .
Good luck and welcome .
# Posted on January 13th 2008 by jig
Re: chords for backing the tunes
There are of course chords that will work with every tune. If you are beginning, you need to know the key for starters, and a chord chart is helpful to give finger positions, and tell you what chords basically, belong in the keys. There should come a time where you leave that behind and can improvise chords or partial chords or some noting on your own. But in the beginning, very helpful. It's also good hand training, you need to build strength up in your chording hand especially, guitar is rough on the hands, esp. a steel strung one.
That said, the knowledge of the key and the fingering positions for the chords by themselves will never make a decent backer. It's been said a million times, learn the tunes. Learn the structure of the tunes. The more tunes you learn, the more the structure of the rest will make sense by ear. You have to work at it, maybe even harder than a melody player if you are to get good at it, because you need to know the tune or be able to sense the structure of it on the fly, keep that in your head, yet do something else with your fingers. Backing is more instinctual rather than sticking to set notes and chords all the time, and there are many options as to what you can do, rather than playing note by note. It gets vague and confusing for people learning to back.
In teaching guitar, it is getting drummed more and more into me that it is so much easier to teach a guitarist a tune, say to flatpick it ( a good way to learn it!) than to teach backing. Sure it's easy to show chords and tell someone what key it's in, or if it is in key of D for example but starts on a G chord etc. But that it not backing, it's mechanical. It is very vague when you want to teach someone to improvise and catch things on the fly, or put some emotion into the right hand, which gives the moods, expression, etc. I am finding it is almost like having to teach someone how to smell or feel. I think the instinctual part and the feeling comes from immersion into and love of the music, period, and takes a while.
Everyone on any instrument goes through this "mechanical" phase, you have to, to learn where the hands go etc. What makes a musician though, is someone who gets beyond that, who hits their stride, can play fluidly and quickly, and very important too, puts emotion in their music. You can't rush it, you have to go through the beginnings, and if you love it enough to really work at it, that's when it gets beyond the mechanics of it. But you need to learn the mechanical moves first, so do go find some good charts, and people recommend the Fiddler's Fake Book often because I believe it has chords wrtten on top of the tunes.
Once you have the motions down, record your session, go home and practice to it until you know the common tunes. It's always good to pratice to a recording of the people you'll ultimately go out to play with because you'll know their sets.
And don't forget...this should be fun. Not work, don't get frustrated you can't fly on the thing right away, it's OK. Patience, practice, and love what you're doing. Make sure the guitar is relatively easy to play, if it hurts too much or too long, go get it set up properly, it makes the world of difference. try not to grip the meck too hard, learn to play without the death grip, it will slow you down.
I am going through stage one right now with the harp... like a guitar wasn't heavy enough to carry around, LOL. I am on the mechanics, the hand exercises, had it nine days now, and know I will not sound even like the simplest player for a good while, but each little baby step is fun, as it should be.
# Posted on January 13th 2008 by irisnevins
Re: chords for backing the tunes
My self, I am in the begining stages [still!] of learning the tenor violin, or piccalo cello, basically a 3/4 size cello, tuned EADG. The scale length is the same as the guitar and banjo, I play my scales of course, attempt a few tunes but when playing with a fiddler i play chords/ double stops . It gives a great sound together, but when i play the tunes along with the fiddle its not really so effective. Drones and sharp rhythm sound good.. I find learning new instruments great fun, it keeps my enthusiasm levels high, continually forces me to be adaptable . Of course I do try to keep a common thread running through so that there is crossover, ie fiddle bowing helps the piccalo, right hand and banjo the left. Keep the faith.
# Posted on January 13th 2008 by jig
Re: chords for backing the tunes
"I dont know what experiance paddy has in backing.."
When I said there is 'none', I meant no website. I didn't say anything about chords themselves not being suitable. I just was saying that working them out yourself is better because having them on a page doesn't do the whole justice of backing much justice in my opinion. By the way, you do have more experience than me at backing but I still have opinions.
# Posted on January 13th 2008 by PaddyCmusic
Re: chords for backing the tunes
Absolutely paddy, I whole heartedly support your right to hold and stand by your opinion. I however saw this site the other day, set up by a fellow sessioner. I have seen so many weird chord patterns associated with trad that If I find one that accords with the theory and practice then I am more than happy to recomend it.
I dont think guitarists should just approach this music without either knowing the chord patterns inherant within the tune. or the tune., preferably both. So to suggest someone with perhaps no experiance of trad should somehow figure them out is, I think a step to far. However you are entitled to your opinion. This bit of theory explains my approach to backing;
Here is a bit of theory cut and paste from; http://www.geocities.com/feadanach/modes.html
The DORIAN and AEOLIAN modes sound minor because they start with a minor 3rd, like the MINOR SCALE--however, they do not have a leading tone. The DORIAN mode is by far the more common of the two. If you hear an Irish tune that sounds minor, it is likely to be in DORIAN. To make sure, listen to the 6th note, it is a 1/2 step higher in DORIAN than it is in AEOLIAN. For instance, E DORIAN (see above) has C#, while E AEOLIAN would have all the same note except for C natural.
The MIXOLYDIAN mode sounds major, but also doesn't have a leading tone. Sometimes, it is described as having a flat 7th note, because it is a 1/2 step lower than a leading tone would be in the MAJOR SCALE.
Another important characteristic of how these modes are used are their harmonic implications. That is, the tunes are built around certain chords, and these sets of chords vary with each mode.
MAJOR (mode 1) tunes are usually built primarily around the I-IV-V chords, the three major chords of any given major key. In D Major for instance, the chords would be D Maj, G Maj, and A Maj.
Tunes in other modes are typically built around TWO CHORDS only, which are a step apart. DORIAN and AEOLIAN (modes 2 and 6) will have a minor "home" chord and a major "contrast" chord a step below. MIXOLYDIAN (mode 5) tunes will have two major chords. For instance, for modes of the D Major scale:
E Dorian E minor and D Major
A Mixolydian A Major and G Major
B Aeolian B minor and A Major
# Posted on January 13th 2008 by jig
Re: chords for backing the tunes
Thanks for the kind words about our site (mentioned in Bodatcha's entry above).
And Jig is right - those are starting chords. You can't go too horribly wrong playing them as-is, but they're meant to be tweaked. You'll quickly learn what chord pairs have many notes in common, and therefore can usually substitute well for each other (like Bm for D, Am7 for C, etc). And the note(s) that IS different between the two chords gives the tune the spice that makes it yours.
Happy experimenting!
# Posted on January 14th 2008 by Steve Austin
Re: chords for backing the tunes
The problem with substitution, unless it is very carefully and intelligently done is that the new notes within the chord are not in the tune, you are harmonising, a western art music concept not appropriate within trad. Also you can easily create discord say substituting an Em for a G. G includes GBD, Em includes EGB, the E and th D are discordant. same is you substitute C for Em in a Dorian reel, it is harmonically incorrect , the C clashing with the B present in the tune. . I hasten to add I have not yet come across an Am reel with F in it.
I see it done , this C, accept that it is discordant, do it on purpose, ok, but not because you think it should be there. It is a substitution. This music is MODAL [the bits im talking about] you can not bring your American/ classical structures in and automatically assume it will work.
Steves substitutions above will work if the motes you bring in are in the tune. I say this again and I cant think of anything more important in backing trad. If the note is not in the tune it should not be in the chord, Unless, you clearly understand you are working outside the boundaries of the Tradition.
We are free to do what we will with the music, but hey, lets get it right eh?
# Posted on January 14th 2008 by jig
Re: chords for backing the tunes
Mmm?
Doesn't Tam Lin have an F in it - right there at the beginning of the second bar. OK, it's not "trad", by which, jig, I take you to mean it was written in the mists of time but I think your idea of trad is very limited.
I find that sticking to the chords that fit as best as possible the notes being played leads to very illogical progressions that don't particularly enhance the tune (certainly not harmonically). You might just as well play the tune or play your bodhran.
For me the chords with which a backer chooses to accompany a tune should stand on their own and not just sound like a random selection.
If your going to use chords to back a tune then you have to consider them in an harmonic context. They are adding harmony after all.
Too many guitar players will say they cannot accompany a tune because they couldn't see/read the chords. To me it's about listening, and, as irisnevins says, learning the tunes.
# Posted on January 14th 2008 by DonaldK
Re: chords for backing the tunes
Yeah you are right, As i said that I thought to myself, there must be one or two but they are the exceptions to the rule and have FA and C in the melody.
just not harmonically.
Yes I agree my 'idea ' of trad is very limited, and? It is a specific style of music after all, with set forms, traditions, etc etc. I am happy working within those boundaries. Though I assure you I stretch them in my own way,
For your information, not a boast, I Get big grins of approval from people I play with, including luminaries from the scene. I know my stuff is right cos I finds my chord patterns duplicated over the table .. I play by ear In sessions and generally have no problems accompanying any trad tunes, though some key changes can still throw me for a moment. I have been doing it for 25yrs and intend to do so for another25 god willing.
A chord is the notes of the arpeggio in a block form. play with the tune, not against it, find what is in the tune, dont add superficial stuff muddying the waters so to speak. Backers can have bad reputations in trad for doing this. lets work on authentic accurate settings for our chords so we can keep the tune players happy.
# Posted on January 14th 2008 by jig
Re: chords for backing the tunes
I agree that a limted harmonic approach might be suitable/desirable for very old tunes, written pre classical era. But there is a huge mass of tunes that has been written since the classical era and these tunes are bound to be infected with classical ideas of harmony in their melodic construction.
And even with old tunes - it's great hearing what Shetland accomps do with them, but that is the tradition there.
I have to say I haven't been accompanying tunes that long - 3 out of 35 years playing - so I bow to your undoubted experience.
# Posted on January 14th 2008 by DonaldK
Re: chords for backing the tunes
Fair enough point Donald, There must be, but would they not be composed within those traditional boundaries? . Obviously O'Carolans stuff is a different matter.
The theory behind the chords within the structure of modal music is clear. I hasten to add I did not approach my music in this manner. I was taught the chord patterns by my mentor.
Once again I am not saying you cant or shouldnt do something . just that when you decide to do something or not, you have the facts there to aid your decision.
I have allways played trad, bar a few years a playing punk rock bass
So approach my music from that perspective.
But really I dispute that tunes written since the classical era are necessarily influenced by classical music. Why would they be? What possible route of transference , pre recording would it take? this is a time when travel by foot [or bike] was the only means of transport accessible. I dont see teams of travelling classical musicians travelling round Ireland playing to the country folk.
# Posted on January 14th 2008 by jig
Re: chords for backing the tunes
Try this..
Go to a tune here on this site.
Download it (or the Midi if you can't read dots.., or find a recording of it)
Tune up, pick out the notes, learn it, play along - then do that again to another version of the same recording...
Voila.
Thats not even the best hands on approach, but its a start, and you will learn more for yourself, rather than reading from a site.
# Posted on January 14th 2008 by Hugo Chavez
Re: chords for backing the tunes
if you give me your mail address i can send you an excel tab with chords for more than 200 tunes.
# Posted on January 14th 2008 by fiddlemax
Re: chords for backing the tunes
In a tune like Tam Lin, where it hits that type of note that's kind of running up a scale (or down), whether an F, Fsharp, or whatever odd thing is tossed in, especially learn those tunes! It's the best way to cope with them.
Where these fast changes happen you can, instead of hitting a full chord, note the note (on a low string) along with the melody player, use it to sort of walk into the next chord. A bit tricky for a beginner, but ultimately easier and quicker once used to doing it than full chording, especially for some of the more unpredictable tunes that are all over the place. It helps you not get left in the dust!
Again,,, the one thing I keep telling people struggling with backing, is to listen to the good piano players. Try it. Find a CD that has a piano backer, some of the old ones, Kathleen Collins with Jimmy Mahan (I think that's who backed her) , or Andy McGann and Joe Burke with Felix Dolan on piano.
I really think, though some people look at me like I lost my mind when I say it, and know I am getting repetitive but feel it is important, that guitar players can learn a whole lot by listening to the good piano players, and I will stick by that again and again no matter who says what, and no matter whether you fingerpick or strum. There is so much to learn from them.
They keep more to the melody than most guitar players. They toss lots of notes or parts of the melody or a counter melody in, they create moods. They vamp a bit, then come back in strong with the melody, then lay back again, they know how to weave in and out and around the tune. they know how to stay under the tune and bring out the parts the melody players want to stress, they ease into a chord, the music is not chopped up into chord sections that keep repeating, they segway in and out,... I really found it fascinating when I really began to listen, and yes, it is very adaptable to guitar. It may be contrary to anything anyone else writes here about guitar backing, but give it a listen at some point. Listen to the fluidity of it.
This, if you are a beginner, may not compute at the moment, but hang onto the thought, you might like to try it later. I do fully understand the need for the charts at a certain point in the learning. It's good to practice them, it's the bones of backing, it makes your hands strong too...you can flesh it out as you gain more control. At that point, it can become exhilerating. Being both a backer and a melody player, I have to say I love the semi unstructured, instinctual nature of backing more than tune playing. It's also more challenging and often harder when you get into it at a certain depth. Hopefully I will never have to choose one or the other, but the backing would win. And the challenge of it partly is to make sure no one is focused on you, it's all about making the tune and the melody player shine. it's your job, but in many players' books a very important one, and if you can make them sound better that's what they love the best, and that's OK.
# Posted on January 15th 2008 by irisnevins
Re: chords for backing the tunes
Yeah Iris, Couldnt agree more, I started as a bass player , well actually playing with others, and to some extent I think I still approach my music from that perspective, even as a fiddler, in company , my aim, apart from sounding good is to make the others sound better, using chords, drones, etc. Same as a guitarist, I live and play amongst fiddlers, who are a lot better than me, sure I can hold a tune, in tune, but after 15yrs I recognise my limitations when playing with masters. . So yes the idea,job, is to make the others sound better, this I am pleased to say I generally do well enough, With a solid but changing, sensitive yet forcefull, style that although simple [in a way] chordally, accurately reflects the melody. Mind when playing by ear, pickin up the tunes on the fly, I cannot be so sure I have exactly the right chord pattern, Its a matter of listening, sitting back behind the tune and supporting it and the players.
# Posted on January 15th 2008 by jig
Re: chords for backing the tunes
In any case practice makes perfect...or at least a lot better, but you have to love it or it won't work, you won't feel it on that gut level. A fair amount of people I have met over the years go to guitar or other backing because of the social aspects and want to be part of the group. They usually are coming in from folk music, folk singing, where maybe this is possible. Quite a few have drifted in and then out because they figure ITM is the same deal. It isn't, people take this music as seriously as any classical player, it's their life, even if it's not their day job, it is their life and where their heart is. Each note, chord and putting in the work to get it right is of major importance to many, as well as having a great time. We sall know, we've all gotten "that look" when we are getting something wrong, LOL!
Anyway, immersion, love of the music, will be the inspiration to work at it. Enjoy each baby step too, don't be frustrated that you don't have it perfectly in a week or two. I keep telling myself that about the harp too, LOL!
# Posted on January 15th 2008 by irisnevins
Re: chords for backing the tunes
Hey, I got the medal for the most improved harp player at the Gaelic college in CB the week I attended in 1996. Not hard though since I started from zero, so my improvement must have been infinite!
# Posted on January 15th 2008 by DonaldK
Re: chords for backing the tunes
DonaldK.... I am most improved on harp, started 11 days ago! Started from zero, just a love for it. Having played fingerstyle guitar for eons has likely helped, but the harp is sort of upsidedown or backwards or sideways to how the guitar is strung up! So a little confusing, but it's happening all right! Lovely instrument,
# Posted on January 16th 2008 by irisnevins
Re: chords for backing the tunes
Iris, good luck with your new venture. Dont let it get you strung out
# Posted on January 16th 2008 by Donough
Re: chords for backing the tunes
Yeah, fingerpicking and a bit of musical knowledge certainly helps with the harp. But if you're already a musician you pick up things so much more quickly than a musical novice when taking up a new instrument. That said it hasn't helped my memory, cos it was 2006 I was at the Gaelic College!
# Posted on January 16th 2008 by DonaldK
Re: chords for backing the tunes
Guitar not got enough strings to tune Iris
I play sometimes with a friend who plays a nylons strung harp, and I play the nylon strung guitar, great combination. The Harp. beautiful instrument,
# Posted on January 16th 2008 by jig
Re: chords for backing the tunes
Jig.... Guitar didn't have enough strings, AND it didn't weigh enough either. had to correct all that!
Playing fingerstyle guitar, sa least is a head start for two hand coordination, even though my brain wants to do things backwards. The finger exercises are really helpful though.
Donough... I am fully strung out now. The truly bad thing about the harp is that is is right out there looking at you all the time, so there are many harp breaks. I work at home, so am now lagging behind due to the thing!
It'll stay home a good long while... not up for public humiliation yet!! It's really soothing and relaxing as rumored though. No wonder people get addicted to it.
# Posted on January 17th 2008 by irisnevins