I am putting together a revised version of my alternative Anglo concertina tutor, and introducing various extra ways to perform rolls. The tutor was ‘published’ ( perhaps “mentioned” is a less grandiose term) through a link on www.concertina.net a few years ago, but since then my own technique has grown, and I’ve also gleaned more info from others.
As this is very much a product of knowledge and tips accumulated from people over the years, I’d like to invite any players to submit their own techniques. I have never wanted to make money out of this ( Me ? Make money out of concertina ? Ha !! ), it’s always been a public resource, and so I do credit those who’ve passed on their tips to me. So if you do contribute, you will likewise receive an honourable mention.
To set the reeds rolling, I will start off with some rolling techniques for the lower half of the first octave.
Remember, none of these are Holy Writ: everyone has found their most comfy ways of doing things, and different techniques work better on different instruments. I don’t use all of these, but other people use them and so I offer them as something that may suit your particular concer.
I amusing abc notation conventions here ( as best I can), and so almost all notes mentioned in this particular instalment are in capitals, i.e. in the lower octave, the first octave on flute/pipes/banjo/accordion, the D and A strings on a fiddle etc.
As a general comment, and in case this wasn’t already clear to you, your aim should always be to hold the first note as long as possible before you do the following 2 or 3 grace notes, which should not really be audible as tones themselves, but as a percussive effect. That’s what makes a good roll, on any instrument.
THE NOTE D
1. First, a bellows shake, either on the (C-row) drawn D, or the (G-row) push D. This needs to be done rhythmically of course, to simulate the feel of a roll.
So for a jig probably crotchet/ semi-quaver/ semiquaver i.e. D2 (D/D)
And for a reel, quaver/ semi-quaver triplet. i.e. D (3DDD
2. Staccato using the D’s only. The same phrasing as in the bellows shake applies, but you actually each not in (very) quick succession. This sometimes works for me when I’ve built up a head of steam and it’s easier to just hammer the one key than jump around 2 or 3 to achieve a roll using cuts and tips.
The next 3 techniques [ nos 3-5] are for rolls on the pressed D ( G row ) only:
3. Cutting with the pressed G ( C-row) and pressed E. So looks like this – D (3GED. I have an extra F#, on the press, on my concer so I can also use it instead of the G, i.e. D (3FED.
4. Grace the D with the E and the C# on the outside row, i.e. D (3ECD. It’s awkward at first getting that C# at any sort of speed, but it does impart a different mood to other rolls, virtue of the C#.
5. Cutting with bellows changes: rolling the pressed D, go immediately to the drawn D, then back to the drawn F#, and press the same key to give you the final D. i.e. D (3DFD. 2 bellows changes can make this almost impossible on slower instruments, but it does sound perhaps better than the other rolls. Because I have a medium-paced concer, I tend to use this only on slow jigs, which gives its percussive feel full expression. Got this one from Chris Sullivan, NSW, Australia.
6. Lastly, for the drawn D ( C-row) a parallel to number 5, involving a double bellows change. Grace first with the pressed D ( G row), then the pressed C, then draw the same key for the final D, i.e. D (3DCD. Again, may not sound great at speed on anything but a fast instrument.
THE NOTE E
1. Cutting with the C-row G, and tipping with the pressed D, i.e. – E (3 GDE
2. Bellows shake on the note E, simulating the rhythms describe above for the note D.
3. Cut with G on next button C-row, then 2 staccato E’s . i.e. E (3 GEE. But play those 2 middle grace notes real fast or it’ll sound lame
4. Cut with a higher on the right hand on the C-row ( e.g. c , or an A if you have an extra one on the right hand side), then G on the C-row, and back to E, i.e. E (3 cGE. This one doesn’t really sound convincing on my particular instrument, but it may suit you.
THE NOTE F# - here I’ll deal only with the drawn F# on the G-row. Some people have a pressed F# as an extra key. I do myself but choose not to use it when gracing.
1. Cut with the drawn A and F natural on the C row, i.e. F# (3AFF#.
2. Cut with the drawn G ( outside row) then the drawn A ( C-row), i.e. F# (3 GAF#.
3. Chris Sullivan [credited above] suggests an extra grace note here, including the drawn D ( C-row), i.e. F# (4GADF#. I can’t make that work on my instrument yet, but I’ll keep trying. Chris does play a Jeffries, faster than my concer, and that may be one reason.
My next instalment will cover the notes G to d. Please feel free to comment on alternatives to the above, and your own rolling techniques for the G to d range.
have you considered proper fiddle rolls,eg. g a g f#g or a b a g a ,these of course can be played on the English concertina.
on a standard 30 key c g anglo,rolls like this should be no problem on your g and a notes,as you have all these notes in the same direction. Dick Miles
Thanks for the detail, I'm at a stage where I'm just starting to sort out ornamentation options on the concertina the rolls are the last to come. Can you tell me which of these options give a roll in the (for the lack of me knowing a better term) "Earnestine Healy" style of rolls? Coming from a whistle background, the sound of these rolls makes sense to me, I'm still unsure about how to execute them. Please see http://comhaltas.ie/music/detail/comhaltaslive_206_2_ernestine_healy/
Dickens _ I haven't got to the notes A and G yet. That is next instalment. But your thoughts are correct.
I have already given what you call "fiddle roll" options for the notes D, E and F# above.
lawhistle - I've listened to the Healy video. She plays the rolls so fast and seamlessly I can't tell which technique she uses. Perhaps we should email and ask her.
But the whole point is to do whatever you can achieve. If you're a relative beginner you're not gonna sound like Healy in a hurry, so just try some of the fingering options and see which produces an effect you like, and which fits with the flow of youre playing.
there is an extremely detailed, one might even say windy (and i'm one of the participants, ha!) discussion of the ernestine rolls on this site, btw....
I learned this tune from this video and there are only three notes where she uses rolls. They are the E on the left hand side C-row, the G on the same side and row, and the e on the right hand side C-row. It looks to me like she's doing a ‘phantom button’ (I call it that,) on the E and then a G-BBG with her left and right index fingers respectively. I use a phantom button for the right hand C-row e. By that I mean I hit the note for the first e with my middle finger, hold it down and tap the opposite side for the second e, and then come back to my index finger and quickly to my middle finger on the e (same note) for the last two notes. I'm pretty sure this is what she's doing too, but asking her would be best.
I have been working on this for a while (ever since the last thread on it here) and can offer the following, for what its worth...
Effective rolling technique is rhythm based rather than particular note based. This doesn't help beginners, I know, but for me it is the essential insight.
If you want a roll where the effect is like a triplet on the base note, with a little shudder in it, using D on the C row LHS as an example (because it is the easiest note to roll, in my opinion) play the sequence like this...
ADdbDD
Writing it like that is misleading because the D must be held down while the two higher octave notes are played. Note the A is there before the Roll to give you a lead in to get the rhythm right .
Hit A (C row LHS ) with force as an accented note, then the D we are going to roll on, and holding the D down, hit the first of the high notes d (C row RHS) hard as an accented note, then follow it with b (C row RHS) and then a note that consists of the D we have been holding down all the time as an accented note, then lift the D and apply it again. In order to make the rhythm hit on the D which you have been holding down you will need to use bellows force.
This should give you Dee dah diddle ah da...
The shudder is all in the timing of lifting the finger holding the D off and putting it down again.
If you watch Edel Fox on the Comhaltas site you can pick up the timing of the db notes (or equivalent, depending on the roll) by watching her fingers. They always look slightly lazy.
Another tip, it is not a matter of playing the high notes as if they are melody notes, placing a finger on them and lifting it off in a controlled manner. Play them as rhythm notes, with the same finger action you might use trying to tap time on a table top and get a ringing tone out of the wood at the same time. Again, watch any of the players on Comhaltas for this.
If you have a sensitive concertina you will have the option of making the db notes sound or be silent. When they are silent they still work, they interrupt the rolled note to make the rhythm.
If anyone finds this helps please let me know, or ask for clarification. I'd like to get better at explaining it.
a technique that can be used on the anglo,which I use on The ENGLISH,is to play an ordinary triplet with the same finger,but hold the octave note underneath[or if you cant do this on a chord note, preferably root and fifth],this will reduce the staccato effect of the triplet,and give you a drone type sound.
on the English octave triplets are relatively easy,I have afeeling Mick Bramitch mentions them in his anglo tutor.
Thanks Chris for that detail explanation. And i thnk you do explain things at least as precisely as anyone I've seen writing on the topic.
Obviously you've been working v hard the past year on this. I will try out your technique tmw, but achieving 6 notes for a single effect ? That will take some work. Ta again
for me, the ernestine roll (or my attempt at it) works best on the pull---that is, rolling a lower melody note from the left-hand side which you are playing on the pull, and ornamenting with two higher pull notes from the right side. i hold the left-hand melody note for at least the first cut note from the right side, and sometimes for the whole roll until i have to lift to play the left-hand note again. i'm not saying it doesn't work on the push, but for me, it sounds much betteron the pull....i believe
most of hers in the videos are pull rolls as well. (i'm talking now about the two-cut rolls, not the "phantom button" capers.) she seems to do this most on the video of reels. the jigs are slightly different. also, i have jeffries accidentals. i believe that ernestine has wheatstone ones, so it's not gonna configure the same if you have a different system. cag is right---it's not the precise notes, but rather the sound F/X. but some configurations sound stupid and don't come off well, while others sound great. you just futz around until you get one you like.
Ernestine's rolls are on the E left hand side middle finger C-row (push), A same side, same row index finger (pull), and e on the right hand side C-row middle finger (pull). The E on the left hand side she's definitely doing a 'phantom button', and I believe she's doing the right hand version on the high e on the right hand side as well. That's what works for me too. She appears to be playing a Wheatstone, but it would be the same on a Jefferies.
Thanks to Pb and C-Monster et al for further sharing in this rolls discourse.
Yes C-M I am aware of the earlier 2007 Ernestine thread, and didn't discover it until after kicking this one off the other day. So although it is covering some of the same ground, as i said initially above, all this will go eventually into my tutor in a more summarized form.
By the way PB, I still don't understand, despite reading the 2007 thread, what phantom button technique is. Can you clarify please ?
You use the *‘Phantom Button’ (also called ‘Slap Roll’ among other names,) to get a roll on a double note. For example: if you have this passage:
*NOTE: this only works this way if you’re resting the concertina on your left knee.
| FDD2 |
You hit the "F" button with your index finger left hand C-row and then hit the "D" button with your ring finger twice.
But if you do a roll instead of just hitting your ring finger twice...
| FD D/D/D |
You hit the "F" with your index as before, but when you hit the "D" with your ring finger you hold it down and tap the opposite side of the concertina where there are no buttons for the first "D" (in the triplet,) and then allow your ring finger to bounce twice (for the second two notes of the triplet,) from the energy that transfers through the concertina after tapping it. This works on just about any note on the left side.
It's kind of like Newton's Cradle: those steel balls hanging from a rack that are lined up and when you lift one ball on the end and let it go so it hits the next ball, the ball at the opposite end reacts.
However, on the right side, since that end isn’t resting on your knee, it’s a bit different, at least in my experience. It’s the same except to get the last two notes of the triplet (where your finger bounces twice on the left side) you have to use two fingers because that end isn’t as stable as the other end.
I should add that the reason I call it ‘The Phantom Button’ is because for years I've been trying to figure out how they do this. I would watch closely, but I couldn't tell what button they were using on the opposite side. I finally got one of them to show me and it turned out that the button I was looking for didn’t even exist -- hence, The Phantom Button.
I’ve been working on this for over a year and a half now and it has transformed my playing in a very positive direction. But right after I began working on it my playing took a serious nose-dive while I was learning it. I had to stop using the old triplets, but I wasn't satisfied with them anyway.
Now my playing is much cleaner and the triplets I used to struggle with seem effortless. It has made so many tunes more plausible than they were before. Learning The Phantom Button was the hardest easy thing that I ever learned to do – and it seemed to take forever. It will still be a while before I fine-tune it, but I definitely think it’s worth the effort.
Ceemonster, I find the roll technique I described works easier on the pull than the push also. When doing it on the push you are much more likely to hear the top pair of notes as distinct pitches rather than experiencing them as interruptions of the base note.
The is a very good reason for this, very technical, to do with concertina construction methods. The only thing that might overcome it would be a lot of spring pressure, leading to stiff buttons, so not a good solution.
[Now my playing is much cleaner and the triplets I used to struggle with seem effortless. It has made so many tunes more plausible than they were before. Learning The Phantom Button was the hardest easy thing....]
this is my experience also. i like to call this ornament, a Free Lunch in a world where there is usually No Free Lunch. i also still sometimes use the cleanest same-note triplets i can manage, plus sometimes same-note left-hand triplets with one little right-hand cut in them, plus attempted ernestine rolls. i don't do the more elaborate so-called "piper crans" some of them use because i don't like the staccato or racket level. i really like the sound of the the rolls or triplets dympna o'sullivan does and would like to learn what they are, though i've been told they are much like the ernestine healy ones.
Cag, on the easier-on-the-push question, i believe i read a comment on a cnet thread that kate mcnamara, one of my favorite younger players, told a workshop that PB capers, or slap ornaments, or whatever, sound better for her on the pull, as well. so you're probably onto something about mechanical roots of this. this is my experience with both ernestine-ish rolls & PBs. they work on the push, just don't sound as cool, yes, the distinct pitches sound out more. when i was starting out, i used to call the style i was looking for, "Across-the-Rows Mary Mac," i.e., modern across-the-rows fingering for the melody, but that super-clean clean ornamental aesthetic, where it is almost all melody, but with a modern slap ornament or light roll, or occasional double stop here and there in the mix....to me, Kate McNamara exemplifies that, as do players such as Claire Keville, dympna o'sullivan, ernestine healy, etc....i'm also fascinated by that little thing that terry bingham does instead of a triplet and i try that sometimes....
I can get them to work just as well on the push. At first the pulls were easier, but I studied what was different about the concertina and positions of my hands when I pulled as opposed to when I pushed and adjusted slightly to make it work. There are a lot of subtleties you have to sort out; that's why it's so hard to learn and takes so long to get it into your playing.
strictly speaking what you describe are not rolls,I agree they are very nice ornaments,but using the term roll is alittle confusing,
long rolls as played on the fiddle,consist of five notes, note, note above,note ,note below,note,
whistle rolls,though differing on occasions from fiddle rolls,operate on basically the same principle,cutting with note above and below.
English concertina rolls are the same as fiddle rolls.
better terminology,would be to call the ornaments you are describing for the anglo as flutters
on the English concertina four note ornaments can be used,in 6/8 time,they are the equivalent to fiddle trebles,a dotted crotchet becomes two semi quavers and two quavers,the second semi quaver being the note above,or the same note,or some people use note below,but they are not rolls.
short fiddle rolls ,used for a crotchet ,do consist of four notes,note above, note,note below,note,the first and third notes are effectively grace notes,these too can be executed with ease on the English Concertina generally on reels.
your heading states CONCERTINA ROLLS,without specifying Anglo,English concertina players refer to fiddle or whistle rolls,as rolls,thus confusion can arise.Dick Miles
can you think of an instance in the Comhaltas videos where this technique is used? Or in a tune on CD? I am really interested in learning this, and just want to hear the effect, or preferably see and hear it...
The B is played and held down. While it is held down the D is played as what I call a fake cut. The B then sounds on for a moment, is lifted and played again. The B timing is indicated by the Black line. At the bottom are two brackets with "bellows" written under them. This indicates where you need to emphasise the note using the bellows. You will note that the first bellows emphasis overlaps just slightly with the initial sounding of the B, this is deliberate.
As with the other roll I posted, the transition between the two soundings of the B is important in getting the right sound. The player I learned this from would also use this technique on the left sometimes.
cag, take a look at Edel Fox's video where she plays Devanny's Goat and you'll see her using this on the F. We had a thread in this forum where were were discussing this and I described the technique. Edel herself made an appearance on the thread and confimed by saying, "That ornament that is being reffered to above as 'the phantom button' (interesting name!!) is just something that I learned from Tim Collins years ago. Its nice if not played too harshly or frequently."
thanks, reading the other thread made a lot of sense..!
Can you steer me to your transcription as in "I transcribed her setting of Devanny's Goat and I'll post it in the tune section..." I've looked and can only find one by Kenny.
| F(wee finger), D(ring finger), D(holding ring finger down while tapping the opposite side of the concertina), DD(ring finger bounces twice as repercussion from having tapped the opposite side)
i learned this ornament from pb's explanations online, but i misinterpreted the thing about two bounces at the end, with the result that i hit that note twice after the slap, and it was too many. a workshop instructor told me, you've got it great, just subtract one of those last taps, so here how i conceptualized it to help myself get it......
the ornament gives the aural sound effect of four-ish notes, like a roll or half-roll, but you are actually playing the note only three times, just like a same-note triplet. But in this case, the second of the three times is a slap on the other side of the concertina. you then play it once more, but it sounds like more because of the extra bounce from the slap. so:
Low F-sharp leads into:
1) D played by you, keep finger on it
2) hold 1st D, make it sound a second time by giving the other side of the concertina a nice little whack; the momentum will help lift your finger off the D, but do not take it off until the slap produces the D sound that second time....then,
3) put your finger back on the D and play the D one time again. you only play it once more, but it sounds like twice because you are carrying "oomph" or bounce from the slap.....
to break it down for practice, think of yourself as sounding the note only three times, just like a same-note triplet, but easier, because you don't finger it three times, only two. once, then hold it and slap, then once. practice it isolated from a tune. just play low D, hold it and slap from the other side, then play it one more time. repeat with low F#, etc. keep doing this and in no time, people will be asking you how you do your "rolls." if i can, anyone can.
I should add that, to me, your way seems a little too deliberate. I suppose I'm doing the same thing but I'm letting my fingers do it naturally if I think of it as "bouncing."
This shaping up as a very useful thread, so thanks gents and ( are there any ?) ladies.
What I notice, in this thread and the Ernestine blog last year, is that you're all getting very specific with descriptions of the mechanics of the slap roll and others.
This is the sort of thing that is missing mostly from info-sharing about techniques between ITMusos. It's as if these are Dark Arts, or Masonic Secrets, not to be communicated to any but an inner cabal. And one never knows who's in the cabal, or how to b admitted.
Too often I've been given the bare bones of a particular effect or short-cut, and blithely expected to work the rest out myself. Sometimes I have worked stuff out, but concertina technique is particularly abstruse.
SO, all in all, thank for so much your contributions.
Yes, this technique should have been shown to me years before I finally squeezed it out of the bashtards. I will be asking a few of the people who were tutoring me why this wasn't included in the instruction even though I was asking them directly how they got that sound. I've never received lessons from Gearoid, and I don't know if he uses this particular technique, but he did relate a story to me once about a piper who always concealed what he was doing below the table so others wouldn't figure out how he got his ornaments. This "slap roll" seems to be among the secrets of Irish concertina playing, but that sounds too much like a conspiracy theory. It will be interesting though the next time I run into my old instructors.
The one great player I have had tuition from told me her own tuition (from one of the household names) in rolls did not include absolute specifics. Although she did not state it in exactly these terms, my eventual understanding of the reason for the non specific approach was that the detail in itself was not important, only the rhythm, and how you made that happen was up to you.
All of the roll methods seem to be ways of dancing on the spot during pauses, ie. maintaining rhythm intensity.
Returning to the makeup of the slap/PB roll briefly and the difficulties of describing the actions needed here's another take.
1) F (or any other lead in note)
2) D (sounded normally, a longer note than those following)
3) D (sounded as a continuation of 2 and differentiated from it by being initiated by slapping the other side of the concertina)
4) D (sounded as a continuation of 2 and 3, differentiated from them and given its own rhythm pulse by being funded by the bounce/after effect of the slap)
5) D (a new note of D created by lifting the finger and placing it down again.)
actually, pb, having read your bio and also read your account of when and from whom you learned this ornament, that question came into my mind as well. a singular mystery, quite singular, old chap, but i can't say that i am teddibly surprised. it is a secret only in limited quarters. with few limitations, my experience has been that just about everybody and their brother will happily show you this ornament and slap you on the back when you get it.
i have done more than one workshop with gearoid. i'm not sure how much he plays this ornament in his own music, given that he is mostly a "piper cran" man, plus he likes same-note triplets, which he does with is own hiccuppy-type stacatto. left to his own devices, breaking down ornaments in class does not seem to be what he gravitates toward first, since he is very much a "tunes" guy, but upon request he can, and happily will, dissect & demonstrate everything in the book in great and very clear detail, including the slap ornament.
i have also been in workshops with younger wizzes who are quite jovial about showing it to you. as noted on cneet, kate mcnamara, who is probably not twenty, also teaches it. everybody will.....with a couple of teddibly singular exceptions.
ooooh, i would wager that you were asking the right questions. .....but in any event, just think, you have now yourself passed this ornament on to legions of thirsty souls.
Concertina Rolls technique - an invitation
Concertina Rolls technique - an invitation
I am putting together a revised version of my alternative Anglo concertina tutor, and introducing various extra ways to perform rolls. The tutor was ‘published’ ( perhaps “mentioned” is a less grandiose term) through a link on www.concertina.net a few years ago, but since then my own technique has grown, and I’ve also gleaned more info from others.
As this is very much a product of knowledge and tips accumulated from people over the years, I’d like to invite any players to submit their own techniques. I have never wanted to make money out of this ( Me ? Make money out of concertina ? Ha !! ), it’s always been a public resource, and so I do credit those who’ve passed on their tips to me. So if you do contribute, you will likewise receive an honourable mention.
To set the reeds rolling, I will start off with some rolling techniques for the lower half of the first octave.
Remember, none of these are Holy Writ: everyone has found their most comfy ways of doing things, and different techniques work better on different instruments. I don’t use all of these, but other people use them and so I offer them as something that may suit your particular concer.
I amusing abc notation conventions here ( as best I can), and so almost all notes mentioned in this particular instalment are in capitals, i.e. in the lower octave, the first octave on flute/pipes/banjo/accordion, the D and A strings on a fiddle etc.
As a general comment, and in case this wasn’t already clear to you, your aim should always be to hold the first note as long as possible before you do the following 2 or 3 grace notes, which should not really be audible as tones themselves, but as a percussive effect. That’s what makes a good roll, on any instrument.
THE NOTE D
1. First, a bellows shake, either on the (C-row) drawn D, or the (G-row) push D. This needs to be done rhythmically of course, to simulate the feel of a roll.
So for a jig probably crotchet/ semi-quaver/ semiquaver i.e. D2 (D/D)
And for a reel, quaver/ semi-quaver triplet. i.e. D (3DDD
2. Staccato using the D’s only. The same phrasing as in the bellows shake applies, but you actually each not in (very) quick succession. This sometimes works for me when I’ve built up a head of steam and it’s easier to just hammer the one key than jump around 2 or 3 to achieve a roll using cuts and tips.
The next 3 techniques [ nos 3-5] are for rolls on the pressed D ( G row ) only:
3. Cutting with the pressed G ( C-row) and pressed E. So looks like this – D (3GED. I have an extra F#, on the press, on my concer so I can also use it instead of the G, i.e. D (3FED.
4. Grace the D with the E and the C# on the outside row, i.e. D (3ECD. It’s awkward at first getting that C# at any sort of speed, but it does impart a different mood to other rolls, virtue of the C#.
5. Cutting with bellows changes: rolling the pressed D, go immediately to the drawn D, then back to the drawn F#, and press the same key to give you the final D. i.e. D (3DFD. 2 bellows changes can make this almost impossible on slower instruments, but it does sound perhaps better than the other rolls. Because I have a medium-paced concer, I tend to use this only on slow jigs, which gives its percussive feel full expression. Got this one from Chris Sullivan, NSW, Australia.
6. Lastly, for the drawn D ( C-row) a parallel to number 5, involving a double bellows change. Grace first with the pressed D ( G row), then the pressed C, then draw the same key for the final D, i.e. D (3DCD. Again, may not sound great at speed on anything but a fast instrument.
THE NOTE E
1. Cutting with the C-row G, and tipping with the pressed D, i.e. – E (3 GDE
2. Bellows shake on the note E, simulating the rhythms describe above for the note D.
3. Cut with G on next button C-row, then 2 staccato E’s . i.e. E (3 GEE. But play those 2 middle grace notes real fast or it’ll sound lame
4. Cut with a higher on the right hand on the C-row ( e.g. c , or an A if you have an extra one on the right hand side), then G on the C-row, and back to E, i.e. E (3 cGE. This one doesn’t really sound convincing on my particular instrument, but it may suit you.
THE NOTE F# - here I’ll deal only with the drawn F# on the G-row. Some people have a pressed F# as an extra key. I do myself but choose not to use it when gracing.
1. Cut with the drawn A and F natural on the C row, i.e. F# (3AFF#.
2. Cut with the drawn G ( outside row) then the drawn A ( C-row), i.e. F# (3 GAF#.
3. Chris Sullivan [credited above] suggests an extra grace note here, including the drawn D ( C-row), i.e. F# (4GADF#. I can’t make that work on my instrument yet, but I’ll keep trying. Chris does play a Jeffries, faster than my concer, and that may be one reason.
My next instalment will cover the notes G to d. Please feel free to comment on alternatives to the above, and your own rolling techniques for the G to d range.
# Posted on January 10th 2008 by Fliúiteadóir
Re: Concertina Rolls technique - an invitation
Nice. Can't wait to go home and practice!¨
S
# Posted on January 10th 2008 by snorre
Re: Concertina Rolls technique - an invitation
have you considered proper fiddle rolls,eg. g a g f#g or a b a g a ,these of course can be played on the English concertina.
on a standard 30 key c g anglo,rolls like this should be no problem on your g and a notes,as you have all these notes in the same direction. Dick Miles
# Posted on January 10th 2008 by Rufus Jameson
Re: Concertina Rolls technique - an invitation
Thanks for the detail, I'm at a stage where I'm just starting to sort out ornamentation options on the concertina the rolls are the last to come. Can you tell me which of these options give a roll in the (for the lack of me knowing a better term) "Earnestine Healy" style of rolls? Coming from a whistle background, the sound of these rolls makes sense to me, I'm still unsure about how to execute them. Please see http://comhaltas.ie/music/detail/comhaltaslive_206_2_ernestine_healy/
# Posted on January 10th 2008 by lawhistle
"Fiddle Rolls" and E Healy video
Dickens _ I haven't got to the notes A and G yet. That is next instalment. But your thoughts are correct.
I have already given what you call "fiddle roll" options for the notes D, E and F# above.
lawhistle - I've listened to the Healy video. She plays the rolls so fast and seamlessly I can't tell which technique she uses. Perhaps we should email and ask her.
But the whole point is to do whatever you can achieve. If you're a relative beginner you're not gonna sound like Healy in a hurry, so just try some of the fingering options and see which produces an effect you like, and which fits with the flow of youre playing.
# Posted on January 11th 2008 by Fliúiteadóir
Re: Concertina Rolls technique - an invitation
there is an extremely detailed, one might even say windy (and i'm one of the participants, ha!) discussion of the ernestine rolls on this site, btw....
# Posted on January 11th 2008 by ceemonster
Re: Concertina Rolls technique - an invitation
I learned this tune from this video and there are only three notes where she uses rolls. They are the E on the left hand side C-row, the G on the same side and row, and the e on the right hand side C-row. It looks to me like she's doing a ‘phantom button’ (I call it that,) on the E and then a G-BBG with her left and right index fingers respectively. I use a phantom button for the right hand C-row e. By that I mean I hit the note for the first e with my middle finger, hold it down and tap the opposite side for the second e, and then come back to my index finger and quickly to my middle finger on the e (same note) for the last two notes. I'm pretty sure this is what she's doing too, but asking her would be best.
# Posted on January 11th 2008 by Phantom Button
Re: Concertina Rolls technique - an invitation
Oh, sorry... by "this tune" I'm referring to the first jig played by Ernestine. It's Louise Kelly's version of Trip to London.
# Posted on January 11th 2008 by Phantom Button
Re: Concertina Rolls technique - an invitation
I have been working on this for a while (ever since the last thread on it here) and can offer the following, for what its worth...
Effective rolling technique is rhythm based rather than particular note based. This doesn't help beginners, I know, but for me it is the essential insight.
If you want a roll where the effect is like a triplet on the base note, with a little shudder in it, using D on the C row LHS as an example (because it is the easiest note to roll, in my opinion) play the sequence like this...
ADdbDD
Writing it like that is misleading because the D must be held down while the two higher octave notes are played. Note the A is there before the Roll to give you a lead in to get the rhythm right .
Hit A (C row LHS ) with force as an accented note, then the D we are going to roll on, and holding the D down, hit the first of the high notes d (C row RHS) hard as an accented note, then follow it with b (C row RHS) and then a note that consists of the D we have been holding down all the time as an accented note, then lift the D and apply it again. In order to make the rhythm hit on the D which you have been holding down you will need to use bellows force.
This should give you Dee dah diddle ah da...
The shudder is all in the timing of lifting the finger holding the D off and putting it down again.
If you watch Edel Fox on the Comhaltas site you can pick up the timing of the db notes (or equivalent, depending on the roll) by watching her fingers. They always look slightly lazy.
Another tip, it is not a matter of playing the high notes as if they are melody notes, placing a finger on them and lifting it off in a controlled manner. Play them as rhythm notes, with the same finger action you might use trying to tap time on a table top and get a ringing tone out of the wood at the same time. Again, watch any of the players on Comhaltas for this.
If you have a sensitive concertina you will have the option of making the db notes sound or be silent. When they are silent they still work, they interrupt the rolled note to make the rhythm.
If anyone finds this helps please let me know, or ask for clarification. I'd like to get better at explaining it.
# Posted on January 11th 2008 by cag
Re: Concertina Rolls technique - an invitation
a technique that can be used on the anglo,which I use on The ENGLISH,is to play an ordinary triplet with the same finger,but hold the octave note underneath[or if you cant do this on a chord note, preferably root and fifth],this will reduce the staccato effect of the triplet,and give you a drone type sound.
on the English octave triplets are relatively easy,I have afeeling Mick Bramitch mentions them in his anglo tutor.
# Posted on January 11th 2008 by Rufus Jameson
Re: Concertina Rolls technique - an invitation
should read[if you cant do this ,try using achord noter instead of the octave]
# Posted on January 11th 2008 by Rufus Jameson
Re: Concertina Rolls technique - an invitation
Thanks Chris for that detail explanation. And i thnk you do explain things at least as precisely as anyone I've seen writing on the topic.
Obviously you've been working v hard the past year on this. I will try out your technique tmw, but achieving 6 notes for a single effect ? That will take some work. Ta again
# Posted on January 12th 2008 by Fliúiteadóir
Re: Concertina Rolls technique - an invitation
Simon,
could you ping me off list? The email address I have for you does not work.
Chris
# Posted on January 12th 2008 by cag
Re: Concertina Rolls technique - an invitation
for me, the ernestine roll (or my attempt at it) works best on the pull---that is, rolling a lower melody note from the left-hand side which you are playing on the pull, and ornamenting with two higher pull notes from the right side. i hold the left-hand melody note for at least the first cut note from the right side, and sometimes for the whole roll until i have to lift to play the left-hand note again. i'm not saying it doesn't work on the push, but for me, it sounds much betteron the pull....i believe
most of hers in the videos are pull rolls as well. (i'm talking now about the two-cut rolls, not the "phantom button" capers.) she seems to do this most on the video of reels. the jigs are slightly different. also, i have jeffries accidentals. i believe that ernestine has wheatstone ones, so it's not gonna configure the same if you have a different system. cag is right---it's not the precise notes, but rather the sound F/X. but some configurations sound stupid and don't come off well, while others sound great. you just futz around until you get one you like.
# Posted on January 12th 2008 by ceemonster
Re: Concertina Rolls technique - an invitation
Ernestine's rolls are on the E left hand side middle finger C-row (push), A same side, same row index finger (pull), and e on the right hand side C-row middle finger (pull). The E on the left hand side she's definitely doing a 'phantom button', and I believe she's doing the right hand version on the high e on the right hand side as well. That's what works for me too. She appears to be playing a Wheatstone, but it would be the same on a Jefferies.
# Posted on January 12th 2008 by Phantom Button
Re: Concertina Rolls technique - an invitation
I'm just referring to the first tune BTW.
# Posted on January 12th 2008 by Phantom Button
Re: Concertina Rolls technique - an invitation
Thanks to Pb and C-Monster et al for further sharing in this rolls discourse.
Yes C-M I am aware of the earlier 2007 Ernestine thread, and didn't discover it until after kicking this one off the other day. So although it is covering some of the same ground, as i said initially above, all this will go eventually into my tutor in a more summarized form.
By the way PB, I still don't understand, despite reading the 2007 thread, what phantom button technique is. Can you clarify please ?
# Posted on January 12th 2008 by Fliúiteadóir
Re: Concertina Rolls technique - an invitation
You use the *‘Phantom Button’ (also called ‘Slap Roll’ among other names,) to get a roll on a double note. For example: if you have this passage:
*NOTE: this only works this way if you’re resting the concertina on your left knee.
| FDD2 |
You hit the "F" button with your index finger left hand C-row and then hit the "D" button with your ring finger twice.
But if you do a roll instead of just hitting your ring finger twice...
| FD D/D/D |
You hit the "F" with your index as before, but when you hit the "D" with your ring finger you hold it down and tap the opposite side of the concertina where there are no buttons for the first "D" (in the triplet,) and then allow your ring finger to bounce twice (for the second two notes of the triplet,) from the energy that transfers through the concertina after tapping it. This works on just about any note on the left side.
It's kind of like Newton's Cradle: those steel balls hanging from a rack that are lined up and when you lift one ball on the end and let it go so it hits the next ball, the ball at the opposite end reacts.
http://whyfiles.org/shorties/223shock_absorb/images/newtons_cradle.jpg
However, on the right side, since that end isn’t resting on your knee, it’s a bit different, at least in my experience. It’s the same except to get the last two notes of the triplet (where your finger bounces twice on the left side) you have to use two fingers because that end isn’t as stable as the other end.
# Posted on January 12th 2008 by Phantom Button
Re: Concertina Rolls technique - an invitation
I should add that the reason I call it ‘The Phantom Button’ is because for years I've been trying to figure out how they do this. I would watch closely, but I couldn't tell what button they were using on the opposite side. I finally got one of them to show me and it turned out that the button I was looking for didn’t even exist -- hence, The Phantom Button.
I’ve been working on this for over a year and a half now and it has transformed my playing in a very positive direction. But right after I began working on it my playing took a serious nose-dive while I was learning it. I had to stop using the old triplets, but I wasn't satisfied with them anyway.
Now my playing is much cleaner and the triplets I used to struggle with seem effortless. It has made so many tunes more plausible than they were before. Learning The Phantom Button was the hardest easy thing that I ever learned to do – and it seemed to take forever. It will still be a while before I fine-tune it, but I definitely think it’s worth the effort.
# Posted on January 12th 2008 by Phantom Button
Re: Concertina Rolls technique - an invitation
Ceemonster, I find the roll technique I described works easier on the pull than the push also. When doing it on the push you are much more likely to hear the top pair of notes as distinct pitches rather than experiencing them as interruptions of the base note.
The is a very good reason for this, very technical, to do with concertina construction methods. The only thing that might overcome it would be a lot of spring pressure, leading to stiff buttons, so not a good solution.
# Posted on January 13th 2008 by cag
Re: Concertina Rolls technique - an invitation
[Now my playing is much cleaner and the triplets I used to struggle with seem effortless. It has made so many tunes more plausible than they were before. Learning The Phantom Button was the hardest easy thing....]
this is my experience also. i like to call this ornament, a Free Lunch in a world where there is usually No Free Lunch. i also still sometimes use the cleanest same-note triplets i can manage, plus sometimes same-note left-hand triplets with one little right-hand cut in them, plus attempted ernestine rolls. i don't do the more elaborate so-called "piper crans" some of them use because i don't like the staccato or racket level. i really like the sound of the the rolls or triplets dympna o'sullivan does and would like to learn what they are, though i've been told they are much like the ernestine healy ones.
Cag, on the easier-on-the-push question, i believe i read a comment on a cnet thread that kate mcnamara, one of my favorite younger players, told a workshop that PB capers, or slap ornaments, or whatever, sound better for her on the pull, as well. so you're probably onto something about mechanical roots of this. this is my experience with both ernestine-ish rolls & PBs. they work on the push, just don't sound as cool, yes, the distinct pitches sound out more. when i was starting out, i used to call the style i was looking for, "Across-the-Rows Mary Mac," i.e., modern across-the-rows fingering for the melody, but that super-clean clean ornamental aesthetic, where it is almost all melody, but with a modern slap ornament or light roll, or occasional double stop here and there in the mix....to me, Kate McNamara exemplifies that, as do players such as Claire Keville, dympna o'sullivan, ernestine healy, etc....i'm also fascinated by that little thing that terry bingham does instead of a triplet and i try that sometimes....
# Posted on January 13th 2008 by ceemonster
Re: Concertina Rolls technique - an invitation
I can get them to work just as well on the push. At first the pulls were easier, but I studied what was different about the concertina and positions of my hands when I pulled as opposed to when I pushed and adjusted slightly to make it work. There are a lot of subtleties you have to sort out; that's why it's so hard to learn and takes so long to get it into your playing.
# Posted on January 13th 2008 by Phantom Button
Re: Concertina Rolls technique - an invitation
strictly speaking what you describe are not rolls,I agree they are very nice ornaments,but using the term roll is alittle confusing,
long rolls as played on the fiddle,consist of five notes, note, note above,note ,note below,note,
whistle rolls,though differing on occasions from fiddle rolls,operate on basically the same principle,cutting with note above and below.
English concertina rolls are the same as fiddle rolls.
better terminology,would be to call the ornaments you are describing for the anglo as flutters
on the English concertina four note ornaments can be used,in 6/8 time,they are the equivalent to fiddle trebles,a dotted crotchet becomes two semi quavers and two quavers,the second semi quaver being the note above,or the same note,or some people use note below,but they are not rolls.
short fiddle rolls ,used for a crotchet ,do consist of four notes,note above, note,note below,note,the first and third notes are effectively grace notes,these too can be executed with ease on the English Concertina generally on reels.
your heading states CONCERTINA ROLLS,without specifying Anglo,English concertina players refer to fiddle or whistle rolls,as rolls,thus confusion can arise.Dick Miles
# Posted on January 13th 2008 by Rufus Jameson
Re: Concertina Rolls technique - an invitation
Granted... but anglo players are doing these as "rolls" regardless of the terminology.
# Posted on January 14th 2008 by Phantom Button
Re: Concertina Rolls technique - an invitation
PB,
| FD D/D/D |
can you think of an instance in the Comhaltas videos where this technique is used? Or in a tune on CD? I am really interested in learning this, and just want to hear the effect, or preferably see and hear it...
# Posted on January 14th 2008 by cag
Re: Concertina Rolls technique - an invitation
Right hand rolls...
here's a method of doing a roll on the right hand only...
Check out this http://users.tpg.com.au/cghent//righthandroll.jpg Sorry its a little blurred. Its a transcription of a roll on the B RHD Crow.
The B is played and held down. While it is held down the D is played as what I call a fake cut. The B then sounds on for a moment, is lifted and played again. The B timing is indicated by the Black line. At the bottom are two brackets with "bellows" written under them. This indicates where you need to emphasise the note using the bellows. You will note that the first bellows emphasis overlaps just slightly with the initial sounding of the B, this is deliberate.
As with the other roll I posted, the transition between the two soundings of the B is important in getting the right sound. The player I learned this from would also use this technique on the left sometimes.
# Posted on January 14th 2008 by cag
Re: Concertina Rolls technique - an invitation
cag, take a look at Edel Fox's video where she plays Devanny's Goat and you'll see her using this on the F. We had a thread in this forum where were were discussing this and I described the technique. Edel herself made an appearance on the thread and confimed by saying, "That ornament that is being reffered to above as 'the phantom button' (interesting name!!) is just something that I learned from Tim Collins years ago. Its nice if not played too harshly or frequently."
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/12868/comments
And here's the video link: http://comhaltas.ie/music/detail/comhaltaslive_198_segment_5_edel_fox/
# Posted on January 15th 2008 by Phantom Button
Re: Concertina Rolls technique - an invitation
PB
thanks, reading the other thread made a lot of sense..!
Can you steer me to your transcription as in "I transcribed her setting of Devanny's Goat and I'll post it in the tune section..." I've looked and can only find one by Kenny.
# Posted on January 15th 2008 by cag
Re: Concertina Rolls technique - an invitation
It's in the "comments" section of that page.
# Posted on January 15th 2008 by Phantom Button
Re: Concertina Rolls technique - an invitation
Thanks
# Posted on January 15th 2008 by cag
Re: Concertina Rolls technique - an invitation
PB,
could I ask one thing? When you say "...then allow your ring finger to bounce twice "..., in the sequence
| FD D/D/D | , does this mean
| FD D/D/lift/D | or
| FD D/lift/D/lift/D | ?
If it is the former I have it working, if it is the latter I am a grain of sand...
# Posted on January 15th 2008 by cag
Re: Concertina Rolls technique - an invitation
| F(wee finger), D(ring finger), D(holding ring finger down while tapping the opposite side of the concertina), DD(ring finger bounces twice as repercussion from having tapped the opposite side)
# Posted on January 15th 2008 by Phantom Button
Re: Concertina Rolls technique - an invitation
i learned this ornament from pb's explanations online, but i misinterpreted the thing about two bounces at the end, with the result that i hit that note twice after the slap, and it was too many. a workshop instructor told me, you've got it great, just subtract one of those last taps, so here how i conceptualized it to help myself get it......
the ornament gives the aural sound effect of four-ish notes, like a roll or half-roll, but you are actually playing the note only three times, just like a same-note triplet. But in this case, the second of the three times is a slap on the other side of the concertina. you then play it once more, but it sounds like more because of the extra bounce from the slap. so:
Low F-sharp leads into:
1) D played by you, keep finger on it
2) hold 1st D, make it sound a second time by giving the other side of the concertina a nice little whack; the momentum will help lift your finger off the D, but do not take it off until the slap produces the D sound that second time....then,
3) put your finger back on the D and play the D one time again. you only play it once more, but it sounds like twice because you are carrying "oomph" or bounce from the slap.....
to break it down for practice, think of yourself as sounding the note only three times, just like a same-note triplet, but easier, because you don't finger it three times, only two. once, then hold it and slap, then once. practice it isolated from a tune. just play low D, hold it and slap from the other side, then play it one more time. repeat with low F#, etc. keep doing this and in no time, people will be asking you how you do your "rolls." if i can, anyone can.
# Posted on January 16th 2008 by ceemonster
Re: Concertina Rolls technique - an invitation
That's the same as it bouncing twice.
# Posted on January 16th 2008 by Phantom Button
Re: Concertina Rolls technique - an invitation
I should add that, to me, your way seems a little too deliberate. I suppose I'm doing the same thing but I'm letting my fingers do it naturally if I think of it as "bouncing."
# Posted on January 16th 2008 by Phantom Button
Re: Concertina Rolls technique - an invitation
Thanks for the clarifications, seems I had it right with the | FD D/D/lift/D | . Now to build it onto a few tunes.
# Posted on January 16th 2008 by cag
Re: Concertina Rolls technique - an invitation
This shaping up as a very useful thread, so thanks gents and ( are there any ?) ladies.
What I notice, in this thread and the Ernestine blog last year, is that you're all getting very specific with descriptions of the mechanics of the slap roll and others.
This is the sort of thing that is missing mostly from info-sharing about techniques between ITMusos. It's as if these are Dark Arts, or Masonic Secrets, not to be communicated to any but an inner cabal. And one never knows who's in the cabal, or how to b admitted.
Too often I've been given the bare bones of a particular effect or short-cut, and blithely expected to work the rest out myself. Sometimes I have worked stuff out, but concertina technique is particularly abstruse.
SO, all in all, thank for so much your contributions.
# Posted on January 16th 2008 by Fliúiteadóir
Re: Concertina Rolls technique - an invitation
Yes, this technique should have been shown to me years before I finally squeezed it out of the bashtards. I will be asking a few of the people who were tutoring me why this wasn't included in the instruction even though I was asking them directly how they got that sound. I've never received lessons from Gearoid, and I don't know if he uses this particular technique, but he did relate a story to me once about a piper who always concealed what he was doing below the table so others wouldn't figure out how he got his ornaments. This "slap roll" seems to be among the secrets of Irish concertina playing, but that sounds too much like a conspiracy theory. It will be interesting though the next time I run into my old instructors.
# Posted on January 16th 2008 by Phantom Button
Re: Concertina Rolls technique - an invitation
The one great player I have had tuition from told me her own tuition (from one of the household names) in rolls did not include absolute specifics. Although she did not state it in exactly these terms, my eventual understanding of the reason for the non specific approach was that the detail in itself was not important, only the rhythm, and how you made that happen was up to you.
All of the roll methods seem to be ways of dancing on the spot during pauses, ie. maintaining rhythm intensity.
# Posted on January 17th 2008 by cag
Re: Concertina Rolls technique - an invitation
Returning to the makeup of the slap/PB roll briefly and the difficulties of describing the actions needed here's another take.
1) F (or any other lead in note)
2) D (sounded normally, a longer note than those following)
3) D (sounded as a continuation of 2 and differentiated from it by being initiated by slapping the other side of the concertina)
4) D (sounded as a continuation of 2 and 3, differentiated from them and given its own rhythm pulse by being funded by the bounce/after effect of the slap)
5) D (a new note of D created by lifting the finger and placing it down again.)
# Posted on January 17th 2008 by cag
Re: Concertina Rolls technique - an invitation
actually, pb, having read your bio and also read your account of when and from whom you learned this ornament, that question came into my mind as well. a singular mystery, quite singular, old chap, but i can't say that i am teddibly surprised. it is a secret only in limited quarters. with few limitations, my experience has been that just about everybody and their brother will happily show you this ornament and slap you on the back when you get it.
i have done more than one workshop with gearoid. i'm not sure how much he plays this ornament in his own music, given that he is mostly a "piper cran" man, plus he likes same-note triplets, which he does with is own hiccuppy-type stacatto. left to his own devices, breaking down ornaments in class does not seem to be what he gravitates toward first, since he is very much a "tunes" guy, but upon request he can, and happily will, dissect & demonstrate everything in the book in great and very clear detail, including the slap ornament.
i have also been in workshops with younger wizzes who are quite jovial about showing it to you. as noted on cneet, kate mcnamara, who is probably not twenty, also teaches it. everybody will.....with a couple of teddibly singular exceptions.
# Posted on January 17th 2008 by ceemonster
Re: Concertina Rolls technique - an invitation
Well... ok... maybe I wasn't asking the right questions.
# Posted on January 17th 2008 by Phantom Button
Re: Concertina Rolls technique - an invitation
ooooh, i would wager that you were asking the right questions.
.....but in any event, just think, you have now yourself passed this ornament on to legions of thirsty souls.
# Posted on January 18th 2008 by ceemonster