Hello,
I'm a beginning fiddle player, and I need to practice scales and arpeggios in G, D, and A major and E, D, and A minor.
I've practiced a few scales, but as far as arpeggios, I'm not really sure where to begin. About all I know is that an arpeggio is the three notes of a chord played individually (right?)
If anyone has any hints or suggestions on practicing scales and arpeggios, I would greatly appreciate it. I'm new to The Session, and I've already found it to be a great resource.
I like scales and arpeggios coz i'm a classically trained player now playing trad tunes!
For the easiest ones (that's G, D and A major Arp)...play it for one octave first of all which means...
open G,
then 2nd finger, B
open D
then third finger. G
There's your G major arpeggio!
For the other two, D and A, simply play the same finger pattern but for D start on the D string,
similarly for A, start on the A string
Well personally I just practice major scales, as the steps in the modes are the same just starting from a different note. , So G, C D and A would be all i suggest you concentrate on.
The idea is that you find a referance , say the tin whistle, and play each note slowly and carefully, each time you make a mistake, ie it doesnt sound right, start again at the begining.
So after a while you will be able to play G major from the bottom string up to the high B, and back down with good intonation..
Also play little sections of the scale, 3 note groups. .
At first i have to say concentrate on your right hand bowing to the exclusion of the left hand alltogether, playing open strings,working on smooth control and a steady tone. The weight of the bow will mean you need less pressure the nearer your hand approaches the fiddle.
Once you can bow a steady tone then try your scales.
Arpeggio are, as you say the chords spaced out, so you have the 1st tone, 3rd and 5th. then 8th
Practice Am arpeggio. G major. D major. Em. Amajor.
You really need a teacher or friend who has been there before to show you the way. There's only so much you can get from words on a page.
I severely doubt i could have played tunes as well as i do currently if i didn't learn the nitty gritty basics of scales an arpeggios so, llig lejhydsfskscim, you give bad advice!
What is the point of learning a scale when you could learn a tune ?
Then learn another tune that contains another scale. Then you've got two tunes in your repetoire, rather than two useless boring scales. This is irish widdly diddly music, from an aural tradition, not classical music where theory rules. All you need to know is the right places to put your fingers, and then listen, listen, hear, hear, the noises you are making. Who even cares what the noise is called ? If it sounds right, it is right. (IMHO)
The other discussion is excellent for bashing scales. It is a mini-pep rally. Scales, arpeggios, tunes, modes . . . are all good. But that is the last thing you will hear on the mustard board. How about this ~ do what you enjoy, use anything which helps your playing, listen to what everyone says, & decide for yourself.
;)
"maybe if you'd spent your scales time on playing music instead?" llllllllllllig
then i wouldn't be as good....learning scales develops your musical ear, or at least it developed my ear hugely!
Of course scales are crap tunes, because they aren't meant to be tunes! Just like saying 'ere that ant is a crap elephant'...coz it aint supposed to be an elephant!
Yeah, learning scales develops your musical ear. So does playing tunes. Why would scales better better at it than tunes?
Yes, scales aren't meant to be tunes. The fact that they are just crap tunes is more of a coincidence than anything. Or it might be easier for you to look at it the other way round? Tunes are really really interesting scales. How about that?
I'm trying to picture Scully Casey (Bobby's father) sitting around the oul' peat fire, late into the wee hours, sipping a little poteen...... churning out scales and arpeggios.
And little Bobby, listening from his cot, memorizing all those scales and arpeggios.
And Scully teaching the lot of them to Bobby and to Junior Crehan.
Just the thought of it makes me giggle.
What's the difference between a tune and scales/arpeggios? People enjoy dancing to tunes.
If anyone really is all that desperate to "practice their scales and arpeggios," I'd suggest the following tunes (in no particular order):
My Darling Asleep
Belfast Hornpipe
Harvest Home
Rolling in the Ryegrass
The Green Hills of Tyrol
The Noisy Curlew
Tam Linn
The Silver Spire
Staten Island Hornpipe
The Shetland Fiddler
Drowsy Maggie
Off She Goes
The Golden Keyboard
Pigtown Fling
Pretty Maggie Morrisey
Wind that Shakes the Barley
Ships are Sailing
Tripping Upstairs
Maude Millar
Sligo Maids
Bucks or Oranmore
The beauty of "practicing your scale patterns and arpeggios" in these and other tunes is that *****you're learning to hear them in context, as they make sense in this particular musical tradition.***** That's the most important thing you can do when first learning this music--get your ear accustomed to the idioms and cliches of the language of Irish trad music. So you'll learn something like |GBdB eBdB| not as an isolated arpeggio, but as a piece of dance music, with it's own sense of lift and pulse and place within a tune (even a specific type of tune--a reel, or perhaps a hornpipe). In short, you'll learn that such an arpeggio isn't an arpeggio at all but a phrase of beautiful melody, with a built-in timing that causes people to tap their toes and dancers to float above the floor.
And when you've got the "scales and arpeggios" down from that list of tunes above, there are thousands more tunes with loads more scales and arpeggios to practice.....
Aren't you missing the point here, Muse ? Crans and tricky parts are part of the tune. If you start putting crans and tricky bits into a scale, you're well on the way to making a tune. No?
OK, I can accept that your musical ear will develop if you learn to recognise bits of tunes within scales and arpegios. But just think about that for a moment. Are you really saying that that is a good use of your time, when you could be learning to recognise bits of tunes in other tunes?
The Carl Flesch book is the most widely used book for snooty classical violin teaching. Every teacher I had modified the fingerings (3 octave scales), but in later years I went back and worked the originals fingerings too. They're fine.
May as well do the 3 octave ones while you're at it. Change to a new key each week.
Just remember, if all you practice is scales and arpeggios, then all you can play is scales and arpeggios.
Okay, here's my take on scales and what they're good for---I use them to warm up my fingers and my intonation. Not always, but sometimes, on those "off" days, a good ten-minute session with a few scales irons out any rough patches and then the tunes sound better when I start playing them. They help me relax. Maybe people with more playing experience don't need to do this?
I use tunes to warm up my fingers and my intonation. Not always, but sometimes, on those "off" days, a good ten-minute session with a few tunes irons out any rough patches and then the tunes begin to sound better. Tunes help me relax.
There are plenty of traditional fiddlers who play scales. Martin Hayes, for one. I know several fine Irish fiddlers who do. It doesn't make sense that there is only one correct approach to this. That's the classical way of doing things!
Sounds like my routine, kennedy, though your attention span appears to be longer than mine. (10 whole minutes on scales??) As I said in the other thread, scales, being boring crap tunes, lack the momentum that the faster tunes have, so I'm less likely to rush through thhem than I am through tunes. When I am feeling impatient, I am inclined to rush through tunes, which is useless as far as practicing goes. So I'll play a few minutes of scales, slowly, and that's enough to slow my breathing and my heart rate enough to work slowly on the tricky bits of tunes that I need to practice.
So that's the virtue of scales, for me: they're dead boring. I spend 95% or so of my practice time on tunes and fragments thereof.
TDM, do you not think that a good exercise might be to try to play 10 minutes of tunes slowly without rushing through them. Slow enough to slow your breathing and your heart rate. Seems to me that if you are having problems with rushing tunes, the best way to fix it would be to try not to rush them.
Scales are good for practicing intonation, because it's easier to hear when you're off when playing a scale.
But I wouldn't spend too much practice time on scales. Most of your time should be spent practicing tunes, because that's the only way to get the bowing patterns down. Scales won't teach you the bowing, and a whole lot of what makes fiddling fiddling is in the bow.
Playing scales once in a while is fine, and if you're having trouble with a certain note doing a quick run up the scale can help you find the right spot for your finger. And they can be useful for memorizing the fingering patterns for different keys.
But scales aren't as useful in fiddling as they are in classical playing. In fiddling you don't really need to know many keys and you'd gain a lot more from bowing exercises than from playing scales, and even then there's no need for special bowing exercises when playing the tunes does the job.
Michael, (and you know I have great respect for your knowledge), that's just a wee bit condescending, don't you think? Attributing everything to the placebo effect? What I've been taught is that scales, etudes, and tunes all reinforce particular handshapes. This weekend I spent some time doing the two-octave A major scale. I can play several tunes in A, but they stay mostly in the upper register, so when it came time to playing the whole steps on the G and D strings, I had much less experience with that, so the scale shored up a weak point for me. I don't think that's a placebo effect.
"TDM, do you not think that a good exercise might be to try to play 10 minutes of tunes slowly without rushing through them."
...which I do, and I am often able to do better, llig, after playing some bland exercises that are bereft of rhythm and drive and pulse. Gets me in the right frame of mind to focus on playing slowly.
I think scales are important for intonation on fiddle as we have to rely on muscle memory to find our pitches. This is a hard enough job as it is, and it's nice to have something simple and predictable to warm up on.
I think there should be an FAQ on this site, and if it were up to me, the answer to this particular question would be as supplied by Will CPT which is sums the matter up most admirably.
wolfbird I am playing tag.
I mentioned crans because they are an example of
something you learn 1st by practice & repetition & 2nd by use in a tune. It is quite obvious that if you add articulations to scales you are on your way to playing the tunes.
They really are related. I am not even advocating for 'more' scale practice. Only as much as one person needs. If it improves your playing it does not have to require very much time. If it does not help then do not practice that way.
Re: Practicing scales and arpeggiosYeah, learning scales develops your musical ear. So does playing tunes. Why would scales better better at it than tunes?
Yes, scales aren't meant to be tunes. The fact that they are just crap tunes is more of a coincide
Heh, there's a very similar discussion on Melodeon.net on
"Useful exercises and workouts to improve melodeon playing?"
it also got into scales and all that, this was my reply,
#############
** Warning, I'm going to be an awkward bugger and probably overstate my case **
Hmmm, scales. In all my years of playing I have never been requested to give a public recital of scales.
Is there some rule that the more esoteric or boring the practise is, the more "worthy" it is?
Surely, the technique that you need to play tunes on the melodeon is that which you use to play tunes on the melodeon. If any tune required me to play a continuous scale over two octaves, then I'd practise that. Since I've never come across a tune that requires that, I've never seriously practised it.
I well remember, as a young child at junior school, going along to recorder lessons where we were not allowed to play any tunes, just stultifying exercises to recorded "plinky plonk" piano music accompaniment. I soon jacked it in and luckily for me was given a tin whistle by my father. What a release!
Of course I'm not saying that *technique* should not be practised. Triplets, runs (as you find them in tunes), getting the bass end going and all that. That is, stuff that you will actually find in tunes. Do I want to practise sterile nonsense that has no link to folk music? No.
##########
llig leahcim, I love your comment that scales are just crap tunes, spot on
Woodchopper's Breakdown is great for arpeggios, too, Bannerman. Actually, kennedy, if you want a more musical A major workout at the bass end of your fiddle, you might want to try this one as well.
When i first picked up a musical instrument, I wanted fun. For me, practising scales was very, very boring. Learning tunes was fun.
I think you have to have a masochistic character streak to insist that scales are 'a good thing' for irish music. But each to their own. Whatever turns you on, as they say.
Kennedy, all that Michael (and myself) is suggesting is that you can gain the same benefit of learning those lower octave A scale pitch positions by playing a tune down there. You can even take some other tune that you already know well and just drop it down a string.
Reenactor, "muscle memory" is the last thing I'd want to rely on for getting my intonation on fiddle spot on. I much prefer to use my ears. Intonation is not something we "feel" with our fingers, like reading brail. It's something we ***hear.***
Jaysus, now that I've typed it out here, that seems so obvious. I'm sorry if that came out so blunt that it skinned anyone's emotional knees....
You'll find that finger placement actually changes slightly depending on what key/mode you're playing in, too. On fiddle, the F natural in F maj is slightly different than the F natural in Gm. And you'll also need to tweak your finger placement when playing with a piano, say, which is tuned to equal temperament, as opposed to the Pythagorean intonation used when playing solo, or just temperament intonation for playing double stops and harmonies with other string instruments.
Will, that's funny, I was just about to post about how scales helps with transposing between keys. I’ve done this with several recordings (from Dervish and Frankie Gavin, among others) where they play a half-step up, which effectively puts tunes in keys like Eb, which is useless to me at a session. So I learn the tune by ear, learn the intervals, then bring it down to the key I want. Don’t need software for this, just a really good knowledge and feel for the scales and intervals.
And don't worry, I've followed your advice about warming up with a nice easy tune. I do that sometimes. But I do scales too. I'd stand on my head and play if I thought that would help.
*grins* I don't think anyone would dispute that hearing faster is the key to fiddle intonation. However, the thing that makes beginning fiddle players do lame stuff like play notes flat on the G string? Improperly trained muscle memory. If their hands remember to get them in the ballpark, then their ear can take care of it.
I don't know if you teach beginners, but one of the best things for them is to learn hand shapes and half-and-whole step relationships between their fingers to start with. Kids don't start off with finely trained ears, and neither do most adults. It's the muscle memory, or lame little tapes on the fingerboard, that are going to help them get started.
Scales and arpeggios are two different things. I never ever practise scales when I play the box. Wouldn't help me at all. Instead I do arpeggios quite a bit and work on hard transitions to get to a certain level of smoothness. It saves me time and frustration in the long run.
I don't know if there are any bandoneon players out there, but if you want to start off practising scales on five octaves with a seemingly random keyboard layout, you are facing a formidable mountain of boredom, whereas it's better to learn phrases that are pleasurable and actually sound like music. My experience.
Yup, reenactor. Listening is what allows me, after having placed a finger a few millimeters too low on the fingerboard, to recognize that I'm playing flat and slide my finger up to the correct pitch. Muscle memory is what allows me to to place my finger in the right place to begin with every single time I pick up my instrument. (Or, at least, it will, eventually. Right? Right?)
I just thought about this again, and to be really honest about this subject, I realized why I started to get serious about scales a few months ago (and this is not to disagree with anyone at all). I’d been playing about a year and my teacher asked me to play a scale and I couldn’t play one very well. Just a simple D major scale. All that time so focused on tunes, and I couldn’t make it work for playing a scale. It was embarrassing. So I started practicing scales. And now I can play them better---and I find that my intonation has improved quite a lot. Maybe it’s a coincidence, and I don't know for sure, but I don’t think so.
So, how many of you nay sayers have actually practised your scales? it beats me how someone who has'nt done something can comment on its effectiveness.
Are you saying there is no room for improvement in your playing? That your happy to disregard the lessons of professionals musicians of all genre's?
I am not speaking as a classically trained musician, this is not a debate about classical music vs trad, or its teaching methods. Simply a trad musician who learns from anyone who can help me.
Of course we want to play tunes, Its not as if I play any less tunes than other people, just that i play scales and stuff as well.Are you all so good at this that there is no possible room for improvement? If not, then why close your mind to something recommended by many of the finest musicians in the world? you think they are wrong? That you are right? Out of curiosity. can any one quote a famous well known player who has gone on the record to say they never practised scales? Im interested.
I came to fiddling from classical playing, so I've done lots of scales. I'm not saying scales are useless for trad playing, but they are much less useful for trad than for classical playing.
And yes, scales can be very helpful in the beginning to learn where to put the fingers in various keys; it does have its place in learning fiddling. But I wouldn't say that it's mandatory once you get out of the beginning stages.
Having been into jazz guitar for a few years, I learned scales and chord progressions and inversions as much as I possibly could. Now that i'm trying to penetrate playing ITM, I wish i'd never had that experience. Instead of sticking to the tune (which is often not very much more complicated that a basic scale) my fingers are always running away with themselves looking for a fancy harmony way up the fingerboard. I'm having to 'unlearn' the muscle memory.
If somebody really ENJOYS playing scales, or finds that they impart an advantage, then play 'em. Nobody can stop you. But I seem to be seeing it the same way as Will CPT and Llig, I just can't see the point or the benefit, and I cannot imagine the old masters practising scales when they could be playing tunes.
Yeah id agree absolutely. But at what stage does one cease to be a beginner? I class myself as an advanced beginner after 15 yrs of daily practice. I allways warm up with scales, and i am studying advanced scales in double stops.
Who am, I to dissagree with international masters? i dont care to hold an opinion, If that is what is recomended by people who can play stuff I will never even approach . who am I , a rough country fiddler to agree or dissagree? No, I say; yes sir, osu
I'm with Screetch: "scales can be very helpful in the beginning to learn where to put the fingers in various keys... But I wouldn't say that it's mandatory once you get out of the beginning stages."
Step 1: How to hold the fiddle and bow. Step 2: How to move the bow across the string. Step 3: Where to put your fingers down to make notes that are in tune.
It's just the logical extension of "how to hold the fiddle." Once you know that, you are better off practicing your technique by playing tunes. I don't have students, but I have shown complete beginners where to put their fingers down... by playing a scale. So shoot me, I guess.
I've been fiddling for a number of years. Self-taught. I make up exercises related to fiddle tunes, because if I don't focus on a difficult measure or two, I end up making the same mistakes over and over. I have gained a lot by this process and try to share it with my fiddle students.
Last year I put together a booklet of exercises specifically for traditional fiddling. It contains tune-like passages that I think help flexibility and strengthen the weak 3rd and 4th fingers, and can yield a sort of shortcut to achieve better intonation and clarity.
If you are interested, the book's title is "The Fiddler's Friend" and is offered on Amazon.com, and on my website at-
Ok, wolfbird. You practised your scales for years, so you know what you are talking about and i respect that. But I would have to ask you then, Can you say you would have been a better player if you hadnt practised those scales?
I would say that, coming from a jazz background you would have to learn different ideas and techniques/attitudes, but this is a similar problem to that experienced by classical musicians coming to trad. To my mind this is a different issue to the practice of basic major scales in first position that i recomend to all my students on whistle, guitar, banjo, fiddle bass etc.. Advanced students get 'advanced'scales, not jazz scales i am sorry to say because i can hardly play jazz ! or blues scales cos i cant play blues, well you know, others reckon i can but im only bluffing
Scales are fun, satisfying and rewarding precisely because they are easy, and conversely because they can be very hard, a challenge.
I can say that i can play blues and jazz a heck of a lot better than I can play ITM. Blues is really simple, in a sense, but jazz is open ended, can be as difficult and sophisticated as you want to make it. To a listener, an astonishing improvised run that plays games with the melody can sound like sheer genius, but it's probably more to do with knowing the basic scales and chord sequences so thoroughly that they are all automatically available, and you just shuffle them about, emphasize juicy bit, play around with the rhythm.
In so far as I understand it, ITM begins from very different premise.
I also played lots of old time, bluegrassy stuff, rockabilly, and again, the fundamental premise of the genre is different.
I really can't see any advantage in learning scales (for ITM) over learning tunes. I mean, if you learn a scale, it's ok, but it's dull. If you learn a tune, which can be just as easy or hard as any scale, and exercise your fingers just as well, then you HAVE something, instant feedback, an achievement, something to show off to people.
But this argument has been running on this site ever since I began lurking and probably long before, so it'll not be settled by anything I say. I think the idea that scales are a requirement is something that's 'leaked' from conventional mainstream orthodox music tuition. I'm all for the 'primitive' aspects of ITM. That's where i get my buzz. If I remember you (jig) called the Rainey's "rough gypsy music". (I'm not saying that you spoke with a derogatory inference). But that's what I love, the 'roughness' and what I don't like is the smooth, slick, perfection, that some people produce. For me, it's not about perfect technique, or perfect intonation, or anything like that, it's about a 'feel', that it's coming from the heart, coming from the soul...
Jig, I played scales for years on piano and guitar because I played rock and blues on those instruments--music where melodic improvisation over a chord progression is central to playing. I understand the usefulness of scales in those settings. Although you can still learn a lot just by listening to other musicians play their solos and extrapolate from that. (I'm not particularly fond of the style of improv that's basically just scale and arpeggio-derived riffs stuck together. I prefer something more organic to the tune.)
So, having played scales and arpeggios, and improvised my way around the holy Circle of Fifths, I can say with some authority (based on your standards) that I don't need any of that to be the best Irish fiddler I can be. In fact, time spent on scales and arpeggios, for me, is time I could be playing tunes.
Reenactor, yes I do teach beginners, and have for more than 30 years now, on a variety of instruments. For fiddle, I don't teach scales to learn finger positions. After going through all the basics of how to relax while standing under the fiddle and not dropping the bow, etc., I then start them with a simple tune (usually in D major or E dorian). I point out that for the purposes of this tune, the index finger is always in the same spot, no matter which string it's on. And the ring finger is also always in the same spot (we avoid tunes that need the C# on the G string for "first tunes"). Then I show them that there are two places the middle finger can land between the index and ring--either close to the index, or close to the ring. That's all they need to know for their first few tunes. Later, we get into using the pinky (noticing that it's the same pitch as the open string above).
By the time a student has internalized all this, teaching tunes in flat or multiple sharp keys is just a matter of explaining one or two new spots for fingers to land. And I explain that in the context of the tunes they already know. No need to practice scales--it's all about hearing the intervals between notes in the context of the music these people are playing. This approach allows students to learn proper intonation (in the context of the key/mode they are playing in) and gives them a tune- and genre-oriented approach to inventing variations and "improvisations" (such as they are in Irish trad music). It teaches these things within the melodic and rhythmic conventions and style of the music, which plain scale and arpeggio exercises do not.
To echo jig above, "Irish traditional tunes are fun, satisfying, and rewarding precisely because they are simple and easy, and because they can also be complex, infinitely nuanced, and challenging."
For this music, scales are unnecessary. If you enjoy playing them, fine. I enjoy playing tunes.
It makes sense to me that some amount of fiddle drills *ought* to be helpful for some (not all) people, probably more so in the early months and years.
I think we would all agree that repeatedly playing something “wrong” reinforces the “wrongness.” It amounts to practicing and perfecting a mistake. A common bit of wisdom among athletic trainers and music teachers is that proper warmup helps to prevent “wrong” running, “wrong” jumping and “wrong” tune playing. When the muscles are flexed and stretched through their full playing range, the fingers are less likely to play “wrongly” and practice mistakes.
Scales and other exercises are designed as compact, intense exposure to the rudimentary moves needed in playing real music. More of the rudiments are exercised more intensely in five minutes of drills than in five minutes of tune playing.
On the other hand, some of the characteristic patina of Irish fiddling comes from not having worked out every last little technical detail until it’s smooth and shiny. So, it this has to be a binary argument, then I come down firmly on both sides. And in the middle. Fiddle drills are probably useful for some, harmful for some (much like over-reliance on reading music) and irrrelevant to others.
I respectfully submit that the process you're describing teaches muscle memory, then (presumably later) intonation by ear.
Now, scales and arpeggios. They don't take long to teach, and in my (admittedly only 20 years' worth of) experience teaching I've found some students respond well to them, so it's in the toolbox.
It's my guess that this is an old argument on your part, because it seem to me you're concluding the most extreme possible positions from my posts. I don't think a lukewarm fondness for scales on my part indicates a complete disregard for the ear in intonation, a lack of understanding of Pythagorean, just, mean, or even-tempered tuning, or in fact a complete reliance on scale and arpeggio studies. I realize that in pointing this out I'm potentially guilty of the same error, but is it possible you're thinking of someone else?
I agree, too much perfection can seem a bit soul less, but though i practice scales etc and i aim for a lovely professional; tone i doubt i will actually achieve it! . sigh,
I certainly didnt say scales are a requirement, they are simply advisable for a player to concentrate on tone and intonation without also having to try and play a tune.
)
Will,
an aside, you are in the situation where your student is in front of you. You can correct them. |For someone like the poster here they are obviously on their own, they need a simple method of achieving good intonation and tone without the benefit of a teacher. I suggested, they get a teacher, however scales with reference to a tin whistle will do the job.
Going back to my other point, you spent years practicing scales, not on the fiddle perhaps but nonetheless you spent that time, Would you say that you would have been a better guitarist if you hadnt spent those hours training scales?
oh yeah, and since I'm arguing on the Internet anyway:
the idea was raised a few times that technical mastery over one's instrument may make one sound too polished. Isn't it better to have technical control of your instrument, and then to make the proper choices to sound right for the genre?
"the idea was raised a few times that technical mastery over one's instrument may make one sound too polished. Isn't it better to have technical control of your instrument, and then to make the proper choices to sound right for the genre?"
Yes, if you're able to actually implement those choices naturally. But there's some grey area. Also some gray area.
I honestly can't think of anything I've read that's less meaningful than "practising scales is good for your intonation." If you can't hear dodgy intonation whilst playing tunes you're not much of a musician yet really. Proper musicians are listening all the time and not just playing notes. And I've yet to hear a tin whistle that would be anything remotely useful for reference to for scales or intonation. Scale practice for grade exams has put millions of young musicians off from continuing with their instruments. What a lamentable waste of potential brilliance. If you play music for fun, practising scales is in severe danger of coming between you and the fun big time. It's a musty old Victorian anachronism. It's like trying to teach a novice driver to drive a car on a disused airfield rather than on roads, then expecting the novice to be a good driver on real roads.
I generally tune to a tin whistle rather than a tuning fork After all if you cant tune to it how are you going to play with it, or do you think the instrument of Willie Clancy, Micho Russel, Michael Dwyer, and all is some how second rate? or not traditional enough? [ sarcasm]
So you play all the time with guys like that, do you, and not with guys who use Generations or Sweetones who forget to keep the mouthpiece a mathematically-accurate distance from their teeth and blow with exactly the same pounds per square inch at all times in ideal temperatures? Do yourself a favour. Buy yourself a cheapie Seiko tuner.
Up to this point I've pretty much just been trying to learn tunes by ear. But I'm starting a session-style music class soon, and the teacher's advice was to practice scales and arpeggios, so the information you've provided is most helpful.
I don't need to type "sarcasm" at the foot of my posts to indicate where it was intended. My suggestion that you buy a tuner was a suggestion that it was at least one way of getting yourself out of the sheer hell of attempting to tune to a whistle.
Steve, remind me what instrument you play? wasnt it the harmonica and box? much call in tuneing your instrument then? [sarcasm]
; I have absolutely no problem tuning to a whistle, it takes about 20 seconds on the guitar and a minuit for the fiddle. but then ive been doing it for 25 years so i should be pretty good at it by now....
tuning to a whistle (or anything else for that matter) and checking intonation against a whistle (or anything else for that matter) are 2 entirely different things
most string players for instance will say that there is no way to tune a piano (that is why Bach titled his set "The Well Tempered Clavier") and it drives them nuts...
I tune my harmonicas extremely carefully as it happens. No harmonica of mine ever makes it to a session until I've spent hours tuning and gapping it. Harmonicas come in a whole range of fine-tunings, and ITM players frequently go to pains to get them right for the context in which they are going to be played. I deal with this on my website. I really can't think why I'm bothering to tell you this. There seems little point. You've been doing it all for so long, as you never tire of telling us, that your ideas are set rock-solid in concrete.
Sunny, this is traditional Irish music. the tin whistle is a traditional Irish instrument the notes we want are the same notes the whistle plays' with steady tone, not a complicated or difficult feat. Perhaps
the problem with folk who play tempered instruments is that they assume that they are 'in tune' and the whistle isnt!
And, as Michael says, once at the pub we all tune to each other. Don't ask me how. It's one of those organic sort of things. But one cry I've yet to hear is "Hey, you with the whistle! Give us an A, could you?"
Perhaps you could explain to the masses what a "tempered instrument" is. Taking time to tell us that may take your mind off scales and whistles for a minute.
Can't say I'd think of a whistle as being a reliable pitch and I have sometimes seen players moving the mouthpiece of these things (where possible) presumably to tune them.
Me, I use a tuner and try to use my ears. I suspect that in sessions we are often trying to get a best fit, perhaps with some fixed pitched instruments that perhaps don't agree 100% with each other anyway...
Ah i really cant be bothered wasting my time playing stupid little games with you steve, good night.
In case you hadnt noticed this thread is about scales and arpeggio, you know those things you dont play. Quite why you want to hijack this thread to play your power trips is beyond me so go ahead.
Yes Llig , your right , of course, as usual, there now, does that make you feel better? slán.
Jon, befor i hit the sack i'll respond , sure you tune a whistle, and as it warms up it sharpens. However warming up a whistle takes a moment. With the fipple fully in the whistle is as good a D as you will need, warmed up.
the whistle and the box are the most reliable instruments, and thats only a dry tuned box. What else do these people suggest? an electronic tuner? some arbitrary 440 classical standard? Geez, what ever next?!
Classical musicians spend a lot of time practicing scales, arpeggios,and etudes as well as actual pieces because classical pieces are full of passages that are basically scales, arpeggios, and etudes. When you get to a 32nd-note run in a new piece you have the advantage of having kind of already played it before.
But you don't play trad the way that you normally play scales and arpeggios. The bowing and ornamentation are the hard parts and you don't get them from playing scales.
Of course, if you play arpeggios accross strings with a shuffle pattern and rolls that might be more appropriate practice...but at that point you're pretty much playing a tune.
My CD has a version of Lord Inchiquin on it. The tune is full of scale runs. I play loads of tunes with arpeggios in the melodies. Try Soldiers' Joy or Miss Thornton's. So I play scales and arpeggios. But, you know? I never spent a single minute practising scales or arpeggios. I play scales and arpeggios in the tunes I play. That's my practice, thank you very much. I have fun with my scale and arpeggio practice because (a) when I'm practising them I don't know I'm practising them and (b) when I'm practising them I'm playing tunes, which is my whole raison d'être in ITM. Playing tunes. I'm a lazy sod really and I don't play tunes nearly enough. If I fretted about my scales and arpeggios I probably wouldn't play tunes at all. Shut up there, Michael!
TJ, I wasn't inferring anything extreme about your position or mine (jig has both extremes well covered all by himself). I was just explaining my own approach to teaching fiddle. I hope my previous post didn't come across as aggro--that's not at all what I intended, and I'm sorry if it hit your that way.
Yes, beginning musicians do use muscle memory to learn to play their instruments, and yes, it is a part of learning how to properly finger a fiddle. But the ear leads the fingers, not the other way around. Teaching good intonation by leading with the fingers is exactly what's wrong with the nasty tape-on-the-fingerboard approach.
My sense of it is that muscle memory is a byproduct of listening to your intonation--it comes *after* you use your ears.
Jig, it's hard to have a reasonable conversation with you. I think my previous posts explain why scales and arpeggios are part and parcel of being a good ***rock or blues guitarist.*** And also why that's not relevant to being a good or even great ***Irish fiddler.*** If you want to misrepresent posts and twist words, please stick to your own contributions.
BTW, you have a habit of saying, "...which I've been playing/teaching for xyz years, so I think I know what I'm doing." Whether you intend it or not, that comes of as saying anyone who disagrees with you is flat out wrong. Which gets old, eh? Lighten up on yourself.
Besides, I've been playing music of one form or another since I was 7, so going on 42 years now. I'm mortally happy that I haven't been doing it exactly the same way all those years. In fact, my attitudes, methods, techniques, and concepts of music have changed a lot over all that time, and still are. So it's 42 years of evolving experience, not 42 years of pedantic, static, dogma. I hope and pray that the same is true for you, though that's not at all clear from the way you type....
Hang on will, It seems to me that its you who is denying the efficiency of a technique from outside your style, I am someone who ? keeps an open mind. It is you telling us that scales are of no aid!
my attitude;
>>Who am, I to dissagree with international masters? i dont care to hold an opinion, If that is what is recomended by people who can play stuff I will never even approach . who am I , a rough country fiddler to agree or dissagree? No, I say; yes sir, <<
This was the question you chose to ignore;
''Going back to my other point, you spent years practicing scales, not on the fiddle perhaps but nonetheless you spent that time, Would you say that you would have been a better guitarist if you hadnt spent those hours training scales?''
yes fiddlers can get away with poor intonation. Does that make them better fiddlers?
Can someone tell me how intonation can be improved on more by playing scales than by playing real tunes? I thought getting good intonation was all about listening to yourself and to others.
That's easy Steve, you bow a Csharp on your fiddle while blowing a D whistle that's stuck in your gob (don't have to cover the holes you see). Adjust your fingers (but not your breath) accordingly. Then get another whistle and tape up the second and third hole for your Cnat. With both whistles in your gob and a bit of clever tonguing (you'd be good at this) you can alternate between the Cnat and Csharp. Easy
TJ, yep, my guess is that out ears and fingers are physically connected. Otherwise what's the point of all that skin and gore between them?
Jig, if you can't be bothered to read my posts, then please don't pretend to tell me what I did or did not address. In my previous post, I said:
"I think my previous posts explain why scales and arpeggios are part and parcel of being a good ***rock or blues guitarist.*** And also why that's not relevant to being a good or even great ***Irish fiddler.***"
Since you seem unable to get the point, I'll summarize my previous posts on this.
Rock and blues guitar solo playing is built on a strong knowledge of and facility with scales and arppegios. Irish fiddling is not--it's built on a strong knowledge of and facility with ****tunes.****
I'd hazard a guess that if, at your next session, you launched into a blues scale based improvisation in the middle of Dispute at the Crossroads, your session mates would find the largest hammer available on short notice and make quick work of your fiddle.
Jaysus, I hate stooping to Jig's level of discourse, but maybe this will make a dent. I've studied fiddle with some of the big names, and I studied violin with Walter Oliveras (who has a critically acclaimed Carnegie Hall recital in his resume, so no slouch of a fiddler there). I've been at Irish fiddling for nearly 30 years. I'm NOT Yehudi Menuhin or Stephane Grapelli, nor do I aspire to be them. But I play a damn fine bit of Irish fiddle, there's nothing wrong with my tone or intonation. I happen to know that many of the other members here are of the same high caliber of musicianship.
So you sound like a total idiot when you presume to call them scratchy or out of tune, hack players. You'd be doing yourself a favor if you stopped doing that.
Well then will, you dont need to improve but why try to influence others to not play scales when you did so for many years?
All the Irish tunes are built upon scales, and intervals. Im just after teaching a student not 10 min ago. he had picked up numerous bad habits from tune playing. We had to go back to scales and arpeggios so he could concentrate upon finger position, residual tension, relaxation, good technique, distance the fingers leave the notes. All these things cant be addressed while also learning a tune. In fact he said a couple of times'' this isnt a tune is it?'' specifically requesting we do simple exercises where he could concentrate on the fundamentals.
you seem to be avoiding the question i askl..' perhaps you might like to answe?, Would you say that you would have been a better guitarist if you hadnt spent those hours training scales?''a simple yes or no will suffice.
Im not sure we need all the bluster but if it makes you feel better go ahead. At no point did i call'' them scratchy or out of tune, hack players.''
Those are your words. you would do well to confine your self to a true quotation rather than one distorted by your likes ,dislikes, and wounded pride.
And what is this? >>I'd hazard a guess that if, at your next session, you launched into a blues scale based improvisation in the middle of Dispute at the Crossroads, your session mates would find the largest hammer available on short notice and make quick work of your fiddle.<< come on man, pull your self together, you are the blues guitarist remember, not me.
All I am saying, and continue to do so is that , I much rather take the advice of international level instructors. and that is the advice I give to any student. If you cant handle that because you disagree well that's your problem.
I take you upon your word, a damn fine fiddler. fair enough, would you be worse if you had practised scales? how do you know you wouldn't be better if you had. you dont.
Steve a serious question, so a serious answer. Scales are not simply about intonation.
You know what, jig, you've made that argument repeatedly now---"how do you know it doesn't work if you haven't tried it"---regarding your insistence on perfecting scales before learning tunes. It might be a tempting argument to make, but it follows poor logic---I could just as easily say that it's better to practice in two-hour chunks every two weeks rather than in smaller bits every day, and how do you know that doesn't work if you haven't tried it?
You're ignoring common sense. Not one single person on this board likes the idea of being limited to a starvation diet of scales and arpeggios---every single person who has responded to you has said that they dislike the idea and prefer to focus on music from the beginning. What good is your method if it makes people want to quit learning to play?
You've also made liberal use of famous musicians' names in supporting your love for scales, but you haven't proved that a single one of them follows your scales only method either. I know that Martin Hayes says he plays scales, but I can hardly imagine that his father prohibited him from learning tunes until he could play a perfect G major two-octave scale. It makes it hard to give credence to your points when you use examples like this.
Finally, it would be nice if you would allow for the fact that a variety of approaches is fundamentally a good thing. Just as we need diferent sizes of shoulder rests because everyone is built differently, we also need a variety of teaching methods because everyone learns differently and has different strengths and weaknesses. I have a friend who also takes lessons from my teacher and when she describes her lessons to me, they sound quite different from the ones I've had---this is because she is moving at a different pace than I am and she's much more concerned about reading music than I am, so our teacher focuses more on those things with her than with me. I wouldn't be happy if he worked that way with me.
You and Will/Michael represent two extremes of an argument---you rely rigidly on scales, and Will and Michael reject them altogether. It doesn't mean one extreme is right and the other is wrong. It would be nice if you didn't insist on that being so.
One good practice method is to play scales the way you play tunes.
Begin in one key & go to another, then another, & another eventually working back to where you began. This may also be used in putting together sets.With scales &/or arpeggios you can use something like the circle of fifths to resolve back to where you began. Other circles are possible. Here is an excellent discussion on circular methodology; http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/16301
Kennedy, I don't reject scales altogether, I just don't think they're necessary for learning to play Irish fiddle. The tunes--and pieces of tunes--are all you need to learn this music to the highest ability. If someone wants to practice scales, that's fine by me. I'm merely suggesting the time would likely be better spent on actual tunes and bits of tunes.
Over the years, I have had a few students who really struggled with the fiddle--for them, it was a truly difficult instrument. Years and years ago, I would resort to the usual drills and exercises. And every single student in that predicament began losing the desire to play, to even try. But as soon as I gave them a simple tune instead, one that focused them on the same technique or issue as the drill, their enthusiasm came back. And they played more. And so they progressed--they overcame their difficulties. And they had fun doing it.
Though it's not always the case, I've met literally hundreds of "trained" violinists who quit playing music as soon as their parents let them, or as soon as they escaped school orchestra programs. As adults, they often voice regret that they didn't keep palying--and the most common sentiment is, "It just wasn't fun." When they see a bunch of 50 year olds having a blast playing good music in our session, they often tell us how much they wished music had been as much fun for them. Seriosuly--this happens on a regular basis. And my wife is one of these "used-to-play" violinists.
So jig's ***insistence*** on scales strikes me as narrow minded, and apt to sned a few people down a discouraging road. All I'm saying is there are other (perhaps more enjoyable) ways to obtain all the technical skill and mastery you need to play Irish fiddle.
Jig, are you deliberately incapable of understanding my answers? Yes, playing scales on guitar made me a better rock and blues guitarist. But playing scales on fiddle won't make me a better Irish fiddler. If I wanted to play jazz, rock, or blues fiddle, then I would probably fly through some scale-based patterns (not basic scales themselves) now and then. Not to imrpove my intonation, but to keep those improvisational chunks fresh and ready. That's how improvised music works in those genres.
And that has absolutely nothing at all to do with playing traditional Irish fiddle.
So your student picked up bad habits from tune-playing. I do that too! I have fun. That's a very bad habit, best avoided by sticking to scales. I pick up my pint between tunes too! I find tunes to be just the right length to build up enough thirst for yet another glug. Anathema! I'm just wondering what other bad habits tune-playing could bring about. The inability to play scales, perhaps?
Will, you do reject scales as a teaching method. Which kind of surprised me, actually, given your fluency with written music and music theory in general (I've learned more about music theory from you than anyone else!). I could never say I disagree, baby beginner that I am, but I think if I had been your student I might have felt like I was missing something. I like the fact that I can play scales, I'm kind of proud of it. You can also say the same thing about written music---it's not necessary---but it does have value, especially if you ever want to play any other style of music, which I might someday.
I believe it may be as simple as the
Irish traditional session bias.
Scale practice (& written music) is acceptable
in its' place. It does not have a place in practicing orlearning or playing Irish session tunes. That is my synopsis of the majority opinion of the board.
Personally I am skeptical of such an inflexible opinion.
Of course I am skeptical of jigs' inflexibility as well.
will, I play tunes on guitar, not jazz or blues, trad tunes, I play them on the fiuddle, banjo and whistle. I recomend people starting learn to pronounce their musical words befor going on to speak. I am not criticising your methods, if it works then all is good, you have strongly held beliefs regarding scales. fair enough. but dont confuse what we do with a strict classical dry training method. I actually think you are exaggerating my position so as to give yourself room to knock it. I think thats unfair. and an untrue representation of my suggestions. scales are a useful tool. I am not going to abandon them because they work as demonstrated. I am not rigidly proposing them,s they still help me 30yrs on and 10 tr old students. If a student comes allong and can demonstrate competance then all the better. The most satisfying aspect of learning to play is success. that is the aim. I am prepared tyo use any method to help me and my students progress. Are you?
Kennedy, i think you also are exaggerating , scales, the notes within them that we use are an essential part of trad. every tune uses notes. I simply follow the advice i am given by those i know can do it for real.I am glad you have taken it to heart, whether it comes from me or your teacher or fred blogs is irrelevant. no doubt you can see the benefits allready.
good luck and enjoy your music. enjoy your life, even the so called boreing bits.
The thing is, Kennedy, if someone *wants* to play scales, they can, and they'll find it a pretty easy go if they've been playing tunes as long as you have.
And I do cover the concepts of intervals between pitches, which leads to talking about scales at some point. But for Irish trad fiddle, I don't ask my students to actually *practice* playing scales. Anything they can learn from playing scales, they can learn from playing tunes.
Maybe it helps to be reminded of the context we find ourselves playing this music in (as Steve has started to do above). The tradition of playing Irish tunes is built on playing for dancers who have specific steps and patterns for the tunes. The music has also evolved into a party unto itself, in the form of sessions. In either case, the music is played solo, or with others and essentially in unison. Long flights of improvised counterpoint or harmonizing (no pun intended) aren't part of the tradition. Pints and craic and being sociable are part of the tradition. So are playing in tune, with a strong tone, and knowing the tunes inside and out. Knowing lots of tunes is smiled upon as well.
To a beginner, playing the music may seem difficult and tricky, something to be analyzed and taken apart to learn by bits and pieces. But in the grand scheme of things, this really is simple music (compared to a Paganini caprice, say, or a Thelonius Monk opus). You can play Irish fiddle all your life at the highest caliber and never once give thought to honing your intonation in 9th position on that fiddle of yours.
So for 99.99999% of the people who come to me to learn to play Irish fiddle, the scales and arpeggios and Kreuzer drills just aren't important or necessary. I'd rather teach them (and they agree--they'd rather learn) the tunes themselves, how to contribute to a session, which are the best draft beers at the local pub, and how to politely get the name of the cutie over there playing whistle.
So Kennedy, keep playing scales if you enjoy them and if they give you something back. That's great. no worries. But don't be surprised if some day a year or three down the road you realize that you'd rather just play the tunes.
Will. I appreciate what you say and that you are saying it with the experience of a teacher. But I still see scales more from Kennedy's angle. Quite a lot of us are learning instruments after a few decades of life and learning. We are not kids pushed into it by parents. We are old enough to have a suggestion put to us, try it out for a bit and decide whether it seems to be helping in any way. I think I am too sceptical to suffer from Michaels 'placebo effect', but none of us can carry out 'double blind' trials of the things we do to help us learn. Nor, I think, can we discount, or maybe sometimes recognise, the influence of our previous experience.
I am sure that scales - and I just mean D and G major scales and running around the same patterns in both before doing the same with simpe tunes - have helped me map out in my mind the small set of notes that this music uses. Something to do with intervals. Learning tunes became easier after I started doing it. And when I get G# key on my flute one of the first things I do will be to do the same things in A. But so far as improving how I execute sequences of notes is concerned I don't find it much different to fragments of tunes.
The suggestion for scales came from an experienced teacher's online tutor. It helps me, but its voluntary.
[I wrote this before kennedy's last post but I type too slowly to start again]
>>What utterly astounds me is that you persist in attempting to promulgate your idiosyncratic and irrefutably wrong approach to traditional music on these pages. Clearly, you're descended from armadillos.<<
so refute this then mac...
''A good performer, playing solo-the best way of rendering this music- will play a tune over three, four or more times, introducing as he proceeds fresh forms of ornamentation,melodic and rhythmic variations. It will be noticed that the first bout in such a performance is the least embellished. One is accordingly provided a measure or line, the deviation from which by way of embellishment add point and flavour to the music. The implicit contrast is lost when a tune is started in a highly ornate manner and the enjoyment of the listener thereby diminished.''
I have heard people who can play scales and play them well, but who can't make music.
But I have never run into anyone who can play music well who can't, on a whim, play scales, whether or not they ever "practiced" them.
Another way to think of it: If you can pick up tunes on the fly, it's so much ridiculously easier to play a scale--in any key and mode--on the fly. So if some day I decide I want to play jazz fiddle, I'll spend a day or two running around the fingerboard sussing our every possible scale and permutation of scales. As an experienced fiddler, that will be easy. And far more efficient than having spent weeks, months, or years doing the same as a beginning fiddler....
''But don't be surprised if some day a year or three down the road you realize that you'd rather just play the tunes.''
well after 15 yrs of fiddle an 30+ of guitar i still practice scales, so dont be surprised if after 30yrs you still enjoy scales and simple isolation exercises.
Question to Will - how much of what is being said is specific to fiddle ? Things don' t seem to get so heated between the flute players here. (FWIW I'll give simple song melodies slowly and long tones about equal points)
David and I seem to agree, although for fiddle, it's more of a physical thing---a scale or two stretches out my hand and gets my fingers in their right places. Like stretching out my hamstrings before going for a run. And then the notes in the tunes come more easily and accurately. I know I can use tunes for this purpose, but if my fingers are rusty, I'd rather mangle a scale while I'm warming up than a tune.
And several people have said they don't want to waste time doing technical exercises that they could be using to play tunes. I guess that would be a factor if your practice time is limited. I practice two hours a day on average---ten minutes' worth of scales out of that isn't really a big deal. And Will, I don't *enjoy* them! I just want to play better and they've been helping!
And Jig, you didn't respond to a single thing I said.
Will I do know a very good fiddle player
who has played in every genre.
She had never practiced scales or arpeggios.
I had to walk her through Em & D arpeggios when
I was showing her a basic E dorian tune.
She was struggling.
The next day I heard her running through
some arpeggios.
David h - As I've said above, if you enjoy playing scales and it gives something back to you, then do it. Lots of people don't like scale exercises, so I give them a wide open door to the music without having to play scales.
Also, I find that flute and whistle are so obviously designed around a specific scale or three that it's almost hard to avoid playing scales. Take a keyless D flute--start with all the fingers down and lift one at a time in sequence from the bottom and you've played almost the whole D major scale. It;s built right into the instrument. So, sure, on flute, it makes sense to learn your D, Edor, Em, G, Ador, and Bm scales. Just start on a hole and work your way up and down. Then do it again on the next hole up. And so on. You'll have the flute sussed out in half a day. Then you can play tunes.
Fiddle however is designed around intervals of a fifth. So it's more natural to play fifths and patterns of other intervals, going across the strings. That's why soooooo many fiddle tunes (tunes composed on fiddle) have phrases like |DFAF BFAF| and |G2 BG dGBG|.
[And please bear in mind that it's jig who's painting me as some extremist here--I haven't said "don't play scales." I just said they're unecessary for Irish music, and Irish fiddle in particular.]
All posting together. David, I hope I answered at least part of your question.
Muse, I suspect your "very good" fiddler wasn't familiar with Irish music and that's why she was struggling. It's possible--even likely--to play lots of other genres of music and rarely or never run across a dorian tune. But dorian happens to be a defining feature of Irish trad music. Especially dorian tunes with a wandering 7th tone.
Kennedy, what a lot of Irish fiddlers do to warm up (besides a pint of the black stuff) is to start with a favorite, easy tune. Martin Hayess has said he likes to warm up on The Morning Star. And he'll run through it in several different keys just to get his fingers and mind joined at the hip, so to speak.
This is my preferred method too--the Morning Star is a great warm up tune. So is the West Clare Reel, Bag of Spuds, Miller of Droghan, Hole in the Hedge, or Buried My Wife and Danced on Her Grave. I'll often start with one of these and let it take me on a stroll through two or three keys. When you use the same tune for months or even years like this (rotating among a choice few), it becomes easier to play in different keys on a whim. And it instantly puts me in a tune-playing frame of mind, which feels good (cuz playing tunes is what I enjoy), and also comes in handy when you're late to a session or gig and everyone else is already warmed up and cranking along. My warm up routine at home has taught me to jump right into playing the music, not needing to run through some artificial (sorry if that sounds harsh) or stripped down exercise first.
Mind you, I'm not arguing that you should change your ways. Just explaining what works for me and suggesting it as a possible alternative, for future consideration.
Kennedy. Now I have started to get my head around how the notes work together the physical part is getting more important. Someone said above (or on the discussion that I suspect sparked this one) that scales and patterns are a quick way of working through the range of notes needed and some important intervals.
Some days my lips take some time to remember what they are supposed to do for some notes and it is somehow less annoying to foul up a scale rather than a tune.
if one has the foresight to know that their end goal may only to play trad, then start by and learn by trad tunes
if ones end goal is to learn the violin (or other instrument) and really know that instrument (really speaking of the violin here) then it could be advantageous to play scales and arpeggios in different positions and keys and rhythyms, too!
it can't hurt (imho)
but , speaking for myself, it comes down to a matter of time management and economics...would I rather be spending my time playing tunes or playing scales
tunes are a lot ore fun
scales (and kreutzer rip) may help me to know my instrument
and by doing this, if I am only playing trad tunes, my time is better spent playing tunes
Maybe off topic, but I think the mental map that is forming in my head of the notes we use has a basis more as Llig described in another thread - a sequence from D to the b in the octave above (in my case also going down to the C# or C below for English and Scottish tunes). With the tunes in different modes often working over all of it but coming home in different places. That fits with the way I had been thinking about the tunes before I read any music theory. (Octave, whats an octave ?).
Have just had a look at the mandolin gathering dust on the wall - far too many notes to choose from.
Response to Sunnybear - don't know about dots for practising scales, but in another context I have been trying to use dots for singing (to say I was 'reading' them would be a gross exaggeration) and have started thinking of the dots whilst playing the scales - but it is to help me learn the dots, not the scales.
Sorry kennedy, i didnt realise you were asking me something''
->>-I could just as easily say that it's better to practice in two-hour chunks every two weeks rather than in smaller bits every day, and how do you know that doesn't work if you haven't tried it?,<<
The answer is obviously that you dont.
As in any educational system we go by the advice we get from our instructors. I consistantly suggest that students try to find the best instruction they can find. referencing against the tried and true methods traditionally handed down which they can get from reputable books. so to recap, we take the advice from those who have been before us.
.I just said they're unecessary for Irish music, and Irish fiddle in particular''
Maybe for you will, with decades of scale practice behind you. however for me you are quite wrong., so your statement is simply, factually inaccurate. How you can make such a catagoric statement and expect to be taken seriously is beyond me. There are no ifs and buts. you are mistaken. Now if you are speaking for your self, then fair enough. but to expect others to spend years struggling because they take your statement as a fact.is unfair. how many students would listen to that and go, ok great i dont need to play my scales.
Without a doubt I needed scales to train my fiddle. I allready had plenty of tunes.
Are you saying that the practice of scales can somehow hinder a student? I think not. I know for a fact that the playing of scales can help immensely.
So a tune has some parts of a scale in it, of course, they all do..that is besides the point, we play tunes as well as soon as a simple scale can be played.you ever see a fiddler who got worse from practising scales?
I am sure with determination, persistance good instruction some folk can achieve a high level of trad playing with little in the way of scales. and...? That does not argue against scales at all. scales are of immense help.
The young lad today enjoys scales, he enjoys tunes too, but too much tunes puts him off, because they are hard for him, what he really enjoys beyond anything is success and praise. success at a D major scale is of far greater value than a poor attempt at a tune. which he may well forget till next time. his scales? no, he cant forget them. he can practice them every day, slowly carefully, listening to tone pronunciation.
We slowly achieve a tune, by ear alone, committed to memory, with good tone. that is my aim and once again if you or anyone can demonstrate a disadvantage to scales i am prepared to listen.
As of yet the only possible contender is that too much scale work can put a student off. Fair enough, too much of anything can put someone off. too many tunes can put some one off. so? does that mean we dont teach tunes in case it puts someone off? I dont think so...
So any one with a clear and concise argument against scales as opposed to the promotion of tunes? which i do as much as any one. at the right time, which is dictated by the student, not their ego, but their capability as judged by me. the instructor. [Not the parent]
The muse: you seem to be going to lengths to show that there are few actual arpeggios and scales in ITM. (I may be mistaken about that).
The thing is, if scales and arpeggios (of the "let's practice some basic scales and arpeggios" variety) do not form the meat of ITM tunes, what is the point of playing them?
"when practicing scales, should one use the dots, or learn by ear?
just curious"
Actually, that's a good point. Open a scale book and look at the bowings and rhythms that are written there. They are written in classical style, and are meant to be played that way.
And that's really the problem. Even if you aren't playing scales from dots, you're probably playing in that style.
That's helpful if you have a scale run in a classical piece; you've already practiced it. So violinists practice scales even at the highest levels, because it's useful.
Look at some of those tunes with "scales" in them. Sure look like scales when looking at the dots. But do you play the tune that way? The way that scales are normally played? I sure hope not.
Practicing scales is practicing classical style, which isn't very useful for trad playing. Of course, you can practice the scales by playing them in the same way that you would play tunes (bowing, ornamentation, etc.), but that is not any more difficult than just playing some tunes so why bother, unless you just enjoy it.
Scales can be useful in the beginning for both trad and classical players. But while experienced violinists still get benefit from practicing scales, I don't think that a trad musician gets much out of them once he/she knows where the fingers go.
To be clear (and then I have dinner to cook and a session to enjoy):
There's no harm in playing scales, if that's what you want to do.
But for a lot of people, there's a tradeoff because time is limited (never enough hours in a day). So time spent playing scales takes away from time spent playing tunes. If the genre of music you want to play consists of simple tunes, almost all in first position, built on oft-repeated idiomatic chunks and phrases, then--for the majority of people--playing scales is not necessary.
That's all.
Yes, the tunes are full of arpeggios and scales. That's why the tunes themselves teaach us what we need to know.
Imagine learning to speak English by repeating over and over:
do
like
eggs
not
ham
I
green
and
do like eggs not ham I green and
do like eggs not ham I green and
do like eggs not ham I green and
(yawn. What the 'ell's this mean? How am I supposed to inflect this "sentence?" Which words should I emphasize? Which words are the most important?)
do like eggs not ham I green and
do like eggs not ham I green and
do like eggs..........
Then three weeks later your teacher throws this at you:
eggs not ham I green and do like
and then suggests an arpeggio:
eggs ham green like green ham
eggs ham green like green ham
eggs ham green like green ham
I feel sorry for the poor child who grows up listening to (and regurgitating) Dr. Seuss this way....
Ha Will, I love that book. I play a game with my daughter where we have to do each page without taking a breath. Do you think that would be a good exercise for playing the flute?
And something I only spotted the other day, Sam is dressed like a Laplander. As in Sam I am, or, Sami am. Genius
LOL, I just tried saying "I don not like them on a train, I do not like them in a plane" with my lips tucked into their flute embouchure and it sounded like Tony Blair on acid.....
Tirno actually sometimes I practice tunes & sometimes I practice by using exercises.
I develop scale & arpeggio exercises on the fly.
They are not quite tunes & not quite scales . . .
& they are different every time.
It is something I use as meditation to shift from conscious thinking to the subconscious & just go where my ear takes me. It is great for relaxing m fingers because I do not have to 'think' about where they go. My ear does it for me.
Thing is arpeggios do not have to be just the pattern of 1 -3 -5 octave . . . In that sense trad has plenty of arpeggios ~ but probably less in terms of scales ~
My eyes were glazing over until those last two posts. Cheers, chaps, for going the step beyond insanity. I feel incapable of further rational thought. About anything.
when Dr. Shinichi Suzuki developed (wrote down on paper) his "method " for learning the violin, he started with a simple tune, written by Mozart that goes now by the name "Twinkle Twinkle..."
he does not start a child off with scales. He starts them off with tune. He refers to this method as the "mother tongue" approach, and he advocates playing by ear.
Now there are plenty of critics to his approach, as you can only imagine, but the basic premise is sound...that you learn to talk by listenign to others speak, and why should you not learn to play the violin by listening and imitating others playing.
Later i the program "tonalization" is introduced...basically intervals and such to be LISTENED to, hence the name (sorry to yell, but eneded the emphasis)...but the basic premise of listening is the key...
there are many many talented young and old Suzuki method players..
can they read music as well...maybe not, but they sure can listen to themselves and others better!
30 years of playing classical music:
Number of hours spent practising scales and arpeggios - hundreds
Were they necessary? Absolutely essential - they form a major part of classical music
5 years of playing ITM
Number of hours spent practising scales and arpeggios - none at all
Were they necessary? Absolutely not - they form such an insignificant part of ITM
Is practising them beneficial or a waste of time for this music?
If you took all the time spent practising scales and used it to learn tunes which contain all the notes of the scale you'd achieve the same result (knowing where all the notes are) but you'd also have learned several useful tunes.
Also, following on from Screetch's comment earlier, unless you are playing the scales with appropriate lilt you are teaching yourself to play in a style which has no place in this musical form. If you play them in jig time or reel time or polka time you're doing something more useful, but stil not as useful as learning a tune.
Can anyone truly say they enjoy playing scales? Each to his own, I guess, but to me it's boring as bat droppings. You could even say they're just crap tunes
Would I recommend a beginner practise them? Not at all. I personally feel this is misdirecting their efforts which could be far better applied elsewhere.
Maybe, just maybe, they help in finger placement on the fiddle. On the other hand, maybe they are a crutch that's helping people to avoid the hard work they need to put in to learn how to pick the intervals in a tune and play them automatically. Sometimes doing the hard thing turns out to be far more productive in the long run.
Please note - this is not meant as a personal attack on anybody, or as taking sides. It's just my own experience.
Ahh, Bc a post thats relevant, You say you spent years playing scales. because they are relevant to classical music. Are you then saying that you forgot all that when you started playing trad? I am not a classical player. I play trad. Scales are very useful for me. No one can deny that. therefor the situation is likely similar for others.
Ps mozart didnt write twinkle, he adapted the old European folk melody as far as i can gather. there appear to be records pre-dateing him. of course i could be mistaken in this., i too had the- impression he conceived the melody, however....
Sunnybear, this tune twinkle, I too have taught this at an early stage, though me thinks adults might not take to kindly to it
Really, a tune simple enough to be playing well is perfectly adequate as an introduction. I consistently recomend airs to beginners, surely one tune played well is better than 20 played badly? or is it simple acquisition they are after?
However there are not too many tunes as simple as that in the trad repertoire. A one octive scale is fine for one octave tunes.
Though some people seem set in their beliefs , the idea in scale practice is to make it easier to achieve our goals. You have a problem with that? the notes can be mastered with referance to a simple form.
Put it this way, If I am teaching boxing, do you think i would put my students in to the ring and say, right you want to fight, go for it!!? of course not. they train basic techniques of attack and defence first. they learn how to deal with violence within a safe structured environment.
Agreed this is not boxing however the same principles apply in teaching any thing; let the student master simple things before approaching complicated ones.
And would I rather play twinkle twinkle or a scale - twinkle gets it every time.
To clarify my comments on classical music, I played the piano for all those years, and only took up the box five years ago. I'd still have to think hard before playing scales on the box, and wouldn't guarantee I'd get it right first time.
And naturally you give students something simple to start off. Don't they always recommend you start with polkas?
!; The time and space to work on your basic techniques without having to also deal with learning a tune. This is invaluable for me, and my students.
Learning a tune is a separate issue to learning the mechanics of the instrument. Sure if you wish to approach these two issues at the same time go ahead, but personally i dont recomend it. Back to the boxing analogy, it would be like trying to learn how to punch while being battered in a ring!, not advisable
2; You will get a tune . whether you can play that tune with any competence is another matter. Why try to do something that is actually out of your reach? you simply wont be able to play a tune[trad] well when starting. You will devote valuable time and energy approaching two issues at once. Diluting your efforts. Sure after years of this you may well be able to play your tunes , in spite of your approach. not because of it.
I suppose it depends on what you want to achieve, as does so much in life. You want tp play tunes, or you want to play tunes to the best of your ability.
Back to the boxing analogy. You can learn to fight by going out there and fighting, you win some lose some. but dont think you will pick up good form, techniques which will enable you 20, 30 yrs down the road to progress because you wont.
I see too many fiddlers with atrocious techniques from learning tunes at the expense of their technique. sure they can play some tunes, but at what cost?
We mostly use a classical bow grip these days, we mostly hold the fiddle under the chin not on the chest. These are lessons we have learnt from the classical world. Why ignore the other lessons they have to teach? to what benefit?
But for how long are you going to play twinkle ? I still play my scales, , mind you I never learnt twinkle twinkle so perhaps i am missing something
Yeah polkas are good starting tunes, but to play them at pace , with good enunciation and rhythm, is perhaps not so simple, A simple air such as The Foggy dew, or The Bold Fenian men, are in my estimation simpler to play right. well known and powerfully emotional stuff.
Jig. I'll just have another go, having had a night's kip and then having questioned my own sanity and found it sadly wanting (why else would I be posting this...quack...). You "see many fiddlers with atrocious techniques from learning tunes at the expense of their technique." [sic] You are now (did I really say "now?") resorting to making this up as you go along. Is this still to do with scales? What aspects of "technique" are picked up by playing scales that are not picked up by learning tunes? Holding the bow correctly? Nifty fingering? Playing in tune? Getting good tone? Now, continuing for another painful moment with your extremely inappropriate boxing analogy, I admit you have me on the ropes here somewhat as I don't play the fiddle. But I do play an instrument and I have never practised scales. Sheerly out of a demented form of interest I picked up a harmonica a minute ago and played the diatonic scale up and down it. Hey, I could do it!! Never even thought to try it before! So I should like to present you with the following hypothesis. An incredibly effective way of learning to play scales is to spend years playing tunes. Voila! (or should that be "viola?")
Yeah, when I teach someone to ski, I don't put him on some skis and get him to practice on easy slopes. They might get a bad habit or something. I get them to practice movements completely out of context, safely away from any snow, with no feedback which will tell them whether they are getting it right or not.
I don't think you should allow them anywhere near skis for at least the first two years! Just show them videos of ski maestros in action, starting with Eddie The Eagle and working upwards (in a manner of speaking). You could even, in the case of ITM, show videos of the great fiddle masters playing scales, up and down, up and down, in all 12 major keys for starters, before you even let your students near a fiddle. Just dig those "techniques"! Jig has good lists of such maestros in his posts. That'll learn all them young buggers how much fun it is!
Been thinking about Will's answer to my question. I think my use of scales is much more mundane than anything someone might do if wanting to improvise or even work on, say, a Dorian scale. Just a case of helping to internalise a move of some familiar reference points in a major scale caused by, say changing C# to C. One thing that does on a flute is move some patterns (in tunes or whatever) that are easy on one part of the range of the instrument (all in the bottom octave) to somewhere where the mechanics are a bit harder (between the octaves), which is a place where the B part of many tunes hangs around for a long time. So nice to move a small set of old friends to a new place to mess around with and have a workout during practice. And those old friends include some things that are stress free and open to messing around with (scales etc) and some that are compelete in themselves (mainly small vocal-range traditional song melodies covering a range of modes)
Will, Michael. All this stuff about words (and Michael's earlier bit about the alphabet) just seems silly. Sentences draw from a pool of thousands of words, each of which also means something on its own. But there are only a few ways, often only one, of arranging a small set to make sense. The order of an alphabet is a just a convention - it makes life simpler if we all learn them in the same order. Notes and intervals are not like that. Are they ?
Someone right up the thread said that playing scales is good for your intonation because you can more easily hear when you're out. I don't completely agree with this. There are many ways within all the scales of being "out" in that some of the instruments we play, and have to join in with in sessions, come in different fine-tunings, and some (notoriously, whistles) can be quite a bit all over the place in terms of accuracy to any particular fine-tuning scheme. Then of course you may be battling with the intonation issues of players of other non-fixed pitch instruments. Harmonicas come in a number of fine tunings from Just intonation right through to equal temperament, though I doubt that most people would do any conscious tweaking to get them to a particular scheme even if they knew or cared what fine-tuning their harps were in. So I don't think that playing scales in isolation is going to help at all when it comes to the session situation. You really do have to listen to what's going on around you and make constant micro-adjustments to your pitch as you go along. You can even do that with a harmonica. That kind of good musicianship can't come out of working on your intonation by sitting at home playing scales. Doing scales in isolation may or may not help you if you are going to play unaccompanied (though I still think you can equally well, or even better, hear poor intonation in tunes), but I think this approach could be a setback in sessions akin to the rigidity of learning tunes just from dots.
Timo surely you show them how to put the ski's on? give them some advice? or you just hand them, some skis and say right there you go? perhaps you expect an 8 year old to figure it out them selves? you give them a lift up the mountain? or a ski lift? you put them on the slopes or in an artificial environment?
Practicing scales and arpeggios
Practicing scales and arpeggios
Hello,
I'm a beginning fiddle player, and I need to practice scales and arpeggios in G, D, and A major and E, D, and A minor.
I've practiced a few scales, but as far as arpeggios, I'm not really sure where to begin. About all I know is that an arpeggio is the three notes of a chord played individually (right?)
If anyone has any hints or suggestions on practicing scales and arpeggios, I would greatly appreciate it. I'm new to The Session, and I've already found it to be a great resource.
Many thanks!!
# Posted on January 7th 2008 by macnasparade
Re: Practicing scales and arpeggios
I like scales and arpeggios coz i'm a classically trained player now playing trad tunes!
For the easiest ones (that's G, D and A major Arp)...play it for one octave first of all which means...
open G,
then 2nd finger, B
open D
then third finger. G
There's your G major arpeggio!
For the other two, D and A, simply play the same finger pattern but for D start on the D string,
similarly for A, start on the A string
hope this helps!
# Posted on January 7th 2008 by D.J.F.
Re: Practicing scales and arpeggios
IMPORTANT: read all this before you go any further:
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/16264/
# Posted on January 7th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Practicing scales and arpeggios
Well personally I just practice major scales, as the steps in the modes are the same just starting from a different note. , So G, C D and A would be all i suggest you concentrate on.
The idea is that you find a referance , say the tin whistle, and play each note slowly and carefully, each time you make a mistake, ie it doesnt sound right, start again at the begining.
So after a while you will be able to play G major from the bottom string up to the high B, and back down with good intonation..
Also play little sections of the scale, 3 note groups. .
At first i have to say concentrate on your right hand bowing to the exclusion of the left hand alltogether, playing open strings,working on smooth control and a steady tone. The weight of the bow will mean you need less pressure the nearer your hand approaches the fiddle.
Once you can bow a steady tone then try your scales.
Arpeggio are, as you say the chords spaced out, so you have the 1st tone, 3rd and 5th. then 8th
Practice Am arpeggio. G major. D major. Em. Amajor.
You really need a teacher or friend who has been there before to show you the way. There's only so much you can get from words on a page.
# Posted on January 7th 2008 by jig
Re: Practicing scales and arpeggios
Stuff and nonsense, get stuck it and play tunes
# Posted on January 7th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Practicing scales and arpeggios
I severely doubt i could have played tunes as well as i do currently if i didn't learn the nitty gritty basics of scales an arpeggios so, llig lejhydsfskscim, you give bad advice!
# Posted on January 7th 2008 by D.J.F.
Re: Practicing scales and arpeggios
What is the point of learning a scale when you could learn a tune ?
Then learn another tune that contains another scale. Then you've got two tunes in your repetoire, rather than two useless boring scales. This is irish widdly diddly music, from an aural tradition, not classical music where theory rules. All you need to know is the right places to put your fingers, and then listen, listen, hear, hear, the noises you are making. Who even cares what the noise is called ? If it sounds right, it is right. (IMHO)
# Posted on January 7th 2008 by wolfbird
Re: Practicing scales and arpeggios
maybe if you'd spent your scales time on playing music instead? Just a suggestion?
# Posted on January 7th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Practicing scales and arpeggios
I've said it on another thread a couple of times and I'll say it again: Scales are just crap tunes
# Posted on January 7th 2008 by llig leahcim
Practicing
The other discussion is excellent for bashing scales. It is a mini-pep rally. Scales, arpeggios, tunes, modes . . . are all good. But that is the last thing you will hear on the mustard board. How about this ~ do what you enjoy, use anything which helps your playing, listen to what everyone says, & decide for yourself.
;)
# Posted on January 7th 2008 by Random_notes
Re: Practicing scales and arpeggios
"maybe if you'd spent your scales time on playing music instead?" llllllllllllig
then i wouldn't be as good....learning scales develops your musical ear, or at least it developed my ear hugely!
Of course scales are crap tunes, because they aren't meant to be tunes! Just like saying 'ere that ant is a crap elephant'...coz it aint supposed to be an elephant!
# Posted on January 7th 2008 by D.J.F.
Re: Practicing scales and arpeggios
"learning scales develops your musical ear"
And learning tunes doesn't develop your musical ear ??
# Posted on January 7th 2008 by wolfbird
Re: Practicing scales and arpeggios
Yeah, learning scales develops your musical ear. So does playing tunes. Why would scales better better at it than tunes?
Yes, scales aren't meant to be tunes. The fact that they are just crap tunes is more of a coincidence than anything. Or it might be easier for you to look at it the other way round? Tunes are really really interesting scales. How about that?
# Posted on January 7th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Practicing scales and arpeggios
Learning Mrs. McLeod's is a really fun way to learn a scale
# Posted on January 7th 2008 by wolfbird
Re: Practicing scales and arpeggios
"Why would scales better better at it than tunes?"
because, technically and musically, scales are perfect
# Posted on January 7th 2008 by D.J.F.
Re: Practicing scales and arpeggios
Perfect for what ? You mean, tunes are imperfect scales??
# Posted on January 7th 2008 by wolfbird
Re: Practicing scales and arpeggios
I'm trying to picture Scully Casey (Bobby's father) sitting around the oul' peat fire, late into the wee hours, sipping a little poteen...... churning out scales and arpeggios.
And little Bobby, listening from his cot, memorizing all those scales and arpeggios.
And Scully teaching the lot of them to Bobby and to Junior Crehan.
Just the thought of it makes me giggle.
What's the difference between a tune and scales/arpeggios? People enjoy dancing to tunes.
If anyone really is all that desperate to "practice their scales and arpeggios," I'd suggest the following tunes (in no particular order):
My Darling Asleep
Belfast Hornpipe
Harvest Home
Rolling in the Ryegrass
The Green Hills of Tyrol
The Noisy Curlew
Tam Linn
The Silver Spire
Staten Island Hornpipe
The Shetland Fiddler
Drowsy Maggie
Off She Goes
The Golden Keyboard
Pigtown Fling
Pretty Maggie Morrisey
Wind that Shakes the Barley
Ships are Sailing
Tripping Upstairs
Maude Millar
Sligo Maids
Bucks or Oranmore
The beauty of "practicing your scale patterns and arpeggios" in these and other tunes is that *****you're learning to hear them in context, as they make sense in this particular musical tradition.***** That's the most important thing you can do when first learning this music--get your ear accustomed to the idioms and cliches of the language of Irish trad music. So you'll learn something like |GBdB eBdB| not as an isolated arpeggio, but as a piece of dance music, with it's own sense of lift and pulse and place within a tune (even a specific type of tune--a reel, or perhaps a hornpipe). In short, you'll learn that such an arpeggio isn't an arpeggio at all but a phrase of beautiful melody, with a built-in timing that causes people to tap their toes and dancers to float above the floor.
And when you've got the "scales and arpeggios" down from that list of tunes above, there are thousands more tunes with loads more scales and arpeggios to practice.....
# Posted on January 7th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: Practicing scales and arpeggios
ROFLOL....
# Posted on January 7th 2008 by wolfbird
Re: Practicing scales and arpeggios
It develops your musical ear to recognize scales & arpeggios
in tunes. & vice versa.
# Posted on January 7th 2008 by Random_notes
Re: Practicing scales and arpeggios
Perhaps no one should practice crans?
# Posted on January 7th 2008 by Random_notes
Re: Practicing scales and arpeggios
Perhaps no one should slow down & repeat the tricky parts of a tune?
# Posted on January 7th 2008 by Random_notes
Re: Practicing scales and arpeggios
Aren't you missing the point here, Muse ? Crans and tricky parts are part of the tune. If you start putting crans and tricky bits into a scale, you're well on the way to making a tune. No?
# Posted on January 7th 2008 by wolfbird
Re: Practicing scales and arpeggios
OK, I can accept that your musical ear will develop if you learn to recognise bits of tunes within scales and arpegios. But just think about that for a moment. Are you really saying that that is a good use of your time, when you could be learning to recognise bits of tunes in other tunes?
# Posted on January 7th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Practicing scales and arpeggios
"Scales are just crap tunes" - quote of the day, I love it. I guess that makes arpeggios crap chords.
If you are going to take the route of daily self inflicting pain, then you may as well go all out:
http://www.amazon.com/Scale-System-Exercises-Major-Minor/dp/0825804132
The Carl Flesch book is the most widely used book for snooty classical violin teaching. Every teacher I had modified the fingerings (3 octave scales), but in later years I went back and worked the originals fingerings too. They're fine.
May as well do the 3 octave ones while you're at it. Change to a new key each week.
Just remember, if all you practice is scales and arpeggios, then all you can play is scales and arpeggios.
# Posted on January 7th 2008 by monkey440
Re: Practicing scales and arpeggios
Okay, here's my take on scales and what they're good for---I use them to warm up my fingers and my intonation. Not always, but sometimes, on those "off" days, a good ten-minute session with a few scales irons out any rough patches and then the tunes sound better when I start playing them. They help me relax. Maybe people with more playing experience don't need to do this?
# Posted on January 7th 2008 by kennedy
Re: Practicing scales and arpeggios
I use tunes to warm up my fingers and my intonation. Not always, but sometimes, on those "off" days, a good ten-minute session with a few tunes irons out any rough patches and then the tunes begin to sound better. Tunes help me relax.
# Posted on January 7th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Practicing scales and arpeggios
Sigh.
There are plenty of traditional fiddlers who play scales. Martin Hayes, for one. I know several fine Irish fiddlers who do. It doesn't make sense that there is only one correct approach to this. That's the classical way of doing things!
# Posted on January 7th 2008 by kennedy
Re: Practicing scales and arpeggios
Sounds like my routine, kennedy, though your attention span appears to be longer than mine. (10 whole minutes on scales??) As I said in the other thread, scales, being boring crap tunes, lack the momentum that the faster tunes have, so I'm less likely to rush through thhem than I am through tunes. When I am feeling impatient, I am inclined to rush through tunes, which is useless as far as practicing goes. So I'll play a few minutes of scales, slowly, and that's enough to slow my breathing and my heart rate enough to work slowly on the tricky bits of tunes that I need to practice.
So that's the virtue of scales, for me: they're dead boring. I spend 95% or so of my practice time on tunes and fragments thereof.
# Posted on January 7th 2008 by Tall, Dark, and Mysterious
Re: Practicing scales and arpeggios
I'm not knocking it Kennedy. If you think it works for you, then the placebo effect alone means it will. I just don't undersand that's all.
# Posted on January 7th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Practicing scales and arpeggios
TDM, do you not think that a good exercise might be to try to play 10 minutes of tunes slowly without rushing through them. Slow enough to slow your breathing and your heart rate. Seems to me that if you are having problems with rushing tunes, the best way to fix it would be to try not to rush them.
# Posted on January 7th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Practicing scales and arpeggios
Scales are good for practicing intonation, because it's easier to hear when you're off when playing a scale.
But I wouldn't spend too much practice time on scales. Most of your time should be spent practicing tunes, because that's the only way to get the bowing patterns down. Scales won't teach you the bowing, and a whole lot of what makes fiddling fiddling is in the bow.
Playing scales once in a while is fine, and if you're having trouble with a certain note doing a quick run up the scale can help you find the right spot for your finger. And they can be useful for memorizing the fingering patterns for different keys.
But scales aren't as useful in fiddling as they are in classical playing. In fiddling you don't really need to know many keys and you'd gain a lot more from bowing exercises than from playing scales, and even then there's no need for special bowing exercises when playing the tunes does the job.
# Posted on January 7th 2008 by Marklar
Re: Practicing scales and arpeggios
Michael, (and you know I have great respect for your knowledge), that's just a wee bit condescending, don't you think? Attributing everything to the placebo effect? What I've been taught is that scales, etudes, and tunes all reinforce particular handshapes. This weekend I spent some time doing the two-octave A major scale. I can play several tunes in A, but they stay mostly in the upper register, so when it came time to playing the whole steps on the G and D strings, I had much less experience with that, so the scale shored up a weak point for me. I don't think that's a placebo effect.
# Posted on January 7th 2008 by kennedy
Re: Practicing scales and arpeggios
"TDM, do you not think that a good exercise might be to try to play 10 minutes of tunes slowly without rushing through them."
...which I do, and I am often able to do better, llig, after playing some bland exercises that are bereft of rhythm and drive and pulse. Gets me in the right frame of mind to focus on playing slowly.
# Posted on January 7th 2008 by Tall, Dark, and Mysterious
Re: Practicing scales and arpeggios
I think scales are important for intonation on fiddle as we have to rely on muscle memory to find our pitches. This is a hard enough job as it is, and it's nice to have something simple and predictable to warm up on.
# Posted on January 7th 2008 by reenactor
Re: Practicing scales and arpeggios
I think there should be an FAQ on this site, and if it were up to me, the answer to this particular question would be as supplied by Will CPT which is sums the matter up most admirably.
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/16301/comments#comment337883
# Posted on January 7th 2008 by wolfbird
Re: Practicing scales and arpeggios
wolfbird I am playing tag.
I mentioned crans because they are an example of
something you learn 1st by practice & repetition & 2nd by use in a tune. It is quite obvious that if you add articulations to scales you are on your way to playing the tunes.
They really are related. I am not even advocating for 'more' scale practice. Only as much as one person needs. If it improves your playing it does not have to require very much time. If it does not help then do not practice that way.
# Posted on January 7th 2008 by Random_notes
Re: Practicing scales and arpeggiosYeah, learning scales develops your musical ear. So does playing tunes. Why would scales better better at it than tunes? Yes, scales aren't meant to be tunes. The fact that they are just crap tunes is more of a coincide
Heh, there's a very similar discussion on Melodeon.net on
"Useful exercises and workouts to improve melodeon playing?"
http://forum.melodeon.net/index.php/topic,97.0.html
it also got into scales and all that, this was my reply,
#############
** Warning, I'm going to be an awkward bugger and probably overstate my case **
Hmmm, scales. In all my years of playing I have never been requested to give a public recital of scales.
Is there some rule that the more esoteric or boring the practise is, the more "worthy" it is?
Surely, the technique that you need to play tunes on the melodeon is that which you use to play tunes on the melodeon. If any tune required me to play a continuous scale over two octaves, then I'd practise that. Since I've never come across a tune that requires that, I've never seriously practised it.
I well remember, as a young child at junior school, going along to recorder lessons where we were not allowed to play any tunes, just stultifying exercises to recorded "plinky plonk" piano music accompaniment. I soon jacked it in and luckily for me was given a tin whistle by my father. What a release!
Of course I'm not saying that *technique* should not be practised. Triplets, runs (as you find them in tunes), getting the bass end going and all that. That is, stuff that you will actually find in tunes. Do I want to practise sterile nonsense that has no link to folk music? No.
##########
llig leahcim, I love your comment that scales are just crap tunes, spot on
# Posted on January 7th 2008 by ecadre
Re: Practicing scales and arpeggios
Try the Heathery Breeze and you'll have the best of both worlds (arpeggios and a tune all in one!).
# Posted on January 7th 2008 by Bannerman
Re: Practicing scales and arpeggios
Woodchopper's Breakdown is great for arpeggios, too, Bannerman. Actually, kennedy, if you want a more musical A major workout at the bass end of your fiddle, you might want to try this one as well.
# Posted on January 7th 2008 by Tall, Dark, and Mysterious
Re: Practicing scales and arpeggios
When i first picked up a musical instrument, I wanted fun. For me, practising scales was very, very boring. Learning tunes was fun.
I think you have to have a masochistic character streak to insist that scales are 'a good thing' for irish music. But each to their own. Whatever turns you on, as they say.
# Posted on January 7th 2008 by wolfbird
Re: Practicing scales and arpeggios
Kennedy, all that Michael (and myself) is suggesting is that you can gain the same benefit of learning those lower octave A scale pitch positions by playing a tune down there. You can even take some other tune that you already know well and just drop it down a string.
Reenactor, "muscle memory" is the last thing I'd want to rely on for getting my intonation on fiddle spot on. I much prefer to use my ears. Intonation is not something we "feel" with our fingers, like reading brail. It's something we ***hear.***
Jaysus, now that I've typed it out here, that seems so obvious. I'm sorry if that came out so blunt that it skinned anyone's emotional knees....
You'll find that finger placement actually changes slightly depending on what key/mode you're playing in, too. On fiddle, the F natural in F maj is slightly different than the F natural in Gm. And you'll also need to tweak your finger placement when playing with a piano, say, which is tuned to equal temperament, as opposed to the Pythagorean intonation used when playing solo, or just temperament intonation for playing double stops and harmonies with other string instruments.
# Posted on January 7th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: Practicing scales and arpeggios
Will, that's funny, I was just about to post about how scales helps with transposing between keys. I’ve done this with several recordings (from Dervish and Frankie Gavin, among others) where they play a half-step up, which effectively puts tunes in keys like Eb, which is useless to me at a session. So I learn the tune by ear, learn the intervals, then bring it down to the key I want. Don’t need software for this, just a really good knowledge and feel for the scales and intervals.
And don't worry, I've followed your advice about warming up with a nice easy tune. I do that sometimes. But I do scales too. I'd stand on my head and play if I thought that would help.
# Posted on January 7th 2008 by kennedy
Re: Practicing scales and arpeggios
Will,
*grins* I don't think anyone would dispute that hearing faster is the key to fiddle intonation. However, the thing that makes beginning fiddle players do lame stuff like play notes flat on the G string? Improperly trained muscle memory. If their hands remember to get them in the ballpark, then their ear can take care of it.
I don't know if you teach beginners, but one of the best things for them is to learn hand shapes and half-and-whole step relationships between their fingers to start with. Kids don't start off with finely trained ears, and neither do most adults. It's the muscle memory, or lame little tapes on the fingerboard, that are going to help them get started.
# Posted on January 7th 2008 by reenactor
Re: Practicing scales and arpeggios
Scales and arpeggios are two different things. I never ever practise scales when I play the box. Wouldn't help me at all. Instead I do arpeggios quite a bit and work on hard transitions to get to a certain level of smoothness. It saves me time and frustration in the long run.
I don't know if there are any bandoneon players out there, but if you want to start off practising scales on five octaves with a seemingly random keyboard layout, you are facing a formidable mountain of boredom, whereas it's better to learn phrases that are pleasurable and actually sound like music. My experience.
# Posted on January 7th 2008 by pennhorse
Re: Practicing scales and arpeggios
Yup, reenactor. Listening is what allows me, after having placed a finger a few millimeters too low on the fingerboard, to recognize that I'm playing flat and slide my finger up to the correct pitch. Muscle memory is what allows me to to place my finger in the right place to begin with every single time I pick up my instrument. (Or, at least, it will, eventually. Right? Right?)
# Posted on January 7th 2008 by Tall, Dark, and Mysterious
Re: Practicing scales and arpeggios
I just thought about this again, and to be really honest about this subject, I realized why I started to get serious about scales a few months ago (and this is not to disagree with anyone at all). I’d been playing about a year and my teacher asked me to play a scale and I couldn’t play one very well. Just a simple D major scale. All that time so focused on tunes, and I couldn’t make it work for playing a scale. It was embarrassing. So I started practicing scales. And now I can play them better---and I find that my intonation has improved quite a lot. Maybe it’s a coincidence, and I don't know for sure, but I don’t think so.
# Posted on January 7th 2008 by kennedy
Re: Practicing scales and arpeggios
So, how many of you nay sayers have actually practised your scales? it beats me how someone who has'nt done something can comment on its effectiveness.
Are you saying there is no room for improvement in your playing? That your happy to disregard the lessons of professionals musicians of all genre's?
I am not speaking as a classically trained musician, this is not a debate about classical music vs trad, or its teaching methods. Simply a trad musician who learns from anyone who can help me.
Of course we want to play tunes, Its not as if I play any less tunes than other people, just that i play scales and stuff as well.Are you all so good at this that there is no possible room for improvement? If not, then why close your mind to something recommended by many of the finest musicians in the world? you think they are wrong? That you are right? Out of curiosity. can any one quote a famous well known player who has gone on the record to say they never practised scales? Im interested.
# Posted on January 7th 2008 by jig
Re: Practicing scales and arpeggios
I came to fiddling from classical playing, so I've done lots of scales. I'm not saying scales are useless for trad playing, but they are much less useful for trad than for classical playing.
And yes, scales can be very helpful in the beginning to learn where to put the fingers in various keys; it does have its place in learning fiddling. But I wouldn't say that it's mandatory once you get out of the beginning stages.
# Posted on January 7th 2008 by Marklar
Re: Practicing scales and arpeggios
Having been into jazz guitar for a few years, I learned scales and chord progressions and inversions as much as I possibly could. Now that i'm trying to penetrate playing ITM, I wish i'd never had that experience. Instead of sticking to the tune (which is often not very much more complicated that a basic scale) my fingers are always running away with themselves looking for a fancy harmony way up the fingerboard. I'm having to 'unlearn' the muscle memory.
If somebody really ENJOYS playing scales, or finds that they impart an advantage, then play 'em. Nobody can stop you. But I seem to be seeing it the same way as Will CPT and Llig, I just can't see the point or the benefit, and I cannot imagine the old masters practising scales when they could be playing tunes.
# Posted on January 7th 2008 by wolfbird
Re: Practicing scales and arpeggios
Yeah id agree absolutely. But at what stage does one cease to be a beginner? I class myself as an advanced beginner after 15 yrs of daily practice. I allways warm up with scales, and i am studying advanced scales in double stops.
Who am, I to dissagree with international masters? i dont care to hold an opinion, If that is what is recomended by people who can play stuff I will never even approach . who am I , a rough country fiddler to agree or dissagree? No, I say; yes sir, osu
# Posted on January 7th 2008 by jig
Re: Practicing scales and arpeggios
I'm with Screetch: "scales can be very helpful in the beginning to learn where to put the fingers in various keys... But I wouldn't say that it's mandatory once you get out of the beginning stages."
Step 1: How to hold the fiddle and bow. Step 2: How to move the bow across the string. Step 3: Where to put your fingers down to make notes that are in tune.
It's just the logical extension of "how to hold the fiddle." Once you know that, you are better off practicing your technique by playing tunes. I don't have students, but I have shown complete beginners where to put their fingers down... by playing a scale. So shoot me, I guess.
# Posted on January 7th 2008 by mickray
Re: Practicing scales and arpeggios
hi macnasparade,
I've been fiddling for a number of years. Self-taught. I make up exercises related to fiddle tunes, because if I don't focus on a difficult measure or two, I end up making the same mistakes over and over. I have gained a lot by this process and try to share it with my fiddle students.
Last year I put together a booklet of exercises specifically for traditional fiddling. It contains tune-like passages that I think help flexibility and strengthen the weak 3rd and 4th fingers, and can yield a sort of shortcut to achieve better intonation and clarity.
If you are interested, the book's title is "The Fiddler's Friend" and is offered on Amazon.com, and on my website at-
http://www.randymillerprints.com/fiddletunebooks.htm
good luck, and if you have other questions, please don't hesitate to ask!
# Posted on January 7th 2008 by celticladda
Re: Practicing scales and arpeggios
Ok, wolfbird. You practised your scales for years, so you know what you are talking about and i respect that. But I would have to ask you then, Can you say you would have been a better player if you hadnt practised those scales?
I would say that, coming from a jazz background you would have to learn different ideas and techniques/attitudes, but this is a similar problem to that experienced by classical musicians coming to trad. To my mind this is a different issue to the practice of basic major scales in first position that i recomend to all my students on whistle, guitar, banjo, fiddle bass etc.. Advanced students get 'advanced'scales, not jazz scales i am sorry to say because i can hardly play jazz ! or blues scales cos i cant play blues, well you know, others reckon i can but im only bluffing
Scales are fun, satisfying and rewarding precisely because they are easy, and conversely because they can be very hard, a challenge.
# Posted on January 7th 2008 by jig
Re: Practicing scales and arpeggios
I can say that i can play blues and jazz a heck of a lot better than I can play ITM. Blues is really simple, in a sense, but jazz is open ended, can be as difficult and sophisticated as you want to make it. To a listener, an astonishing improvised run that plays games with the melody can sound like sheer genius, but it's probably more to do with knowing the basic scales and chord sequences so thoroughly that they are all automatically available, and you just shuffle them about, emphasize juicy bit, play around with the rhythm.
In so far as I understand it, ITM begins from very different premise.
I also played lots of old time, bluegrassy stuff, rockabilly, and again, the fundamental premise of the genre is different.
I really can't see any advantage in learning scales (for ITM) over learning tunes. I mean, if you learn a scale, it's ok, but it's dull. If you learn a tune, which can be just as easy or hard as any scale, and exercise your fingers just as well, then you HAVE something, instant feedback, an achievement, something to show off to people.
But this argument has been running on this site ever since I began lurking and probably long before, so it'll not be settled by anything I say. I think the idea that scales are a requirement is something that's 'leaked' from conventional mainstream orthodox music tuition. I'm all for the 'primitive' aspects of ITM. That's where i get my buzz. If I remember you (jig) called the Rainey's "rough gypsy music". (I'm not saying that you spoke with a derogatory inference). But that's what I love, the 'roughness' and what I don't like is the smooth, slick, perfection, that some people produce. For me, it's not about perfect technique, or perfect intonation, or anything like that, it's about a 'feel', that it's coming from the heart, coming from the soul...
# Posted on January 7th 2008 by wolfbird
Re: Practicing scales and arpeggios
Jig, I played scales for years on piano and guitar because I played rock and blues on those instruments--music where melodic improvisation over a chord progression is central to playing. I understand the usefulness of scales in those settings. Although you can still learn a lot just by listening to other musicians play their solos and extrapolate from that. (I'm not particularly fond of the style of improv that's basically just scale and arpeggio-derived riffs stuck together. I prefer something more organic to the tune.)
So, having played scales and arpeggios, and improvised my way around the holy Circle of Fifths, I can say with some authority (based on your standards) that I don't need any of that to be the best Irish fiddler I can be. In fact, time spent on scales and arpeggios, for me, is time I could be playing tunes.
Reenactor, yes I do teach beginners, and have for more than 30 years now, on a variety of instruments. For fiddle, I don't teach scales to learn finger positions. After going through all the basics of how to relax while standing under the fiddle and not dropping the bow, etc., I then start them with a simple tune (usually in D major or E dorian). I point out that for the purposes of this tune, the index finger is always in the same spot, no matter which string it's on. And the ring finger is also always in the same spot (we avoid tunes that need the C# on the G string for "first tunes"). Then I show them that there are two places the middle finger can land between the index and ring--either close to the index, or close to the ring. That's all they need to know for their first few tunes. Later, we get into using the pinky (noticing that it's the same pitch as the open string above).
By the time a student has internalized all this, teaching tunes in flat or multiple sharp keys is just a matter of explaining one or two new spots for fingers to land. And I explain that in the context of the tunes they already know. No need to practice scales--it's all about hearing the intervals between notes in the context of the music these people are playing. This approach allows students to learn proper intonation (in the context of the key/mode they are playing in) and gives them a tune- and genre-oriented approach to inventing variations and "improvisations" (such as they are in Irish trad music). It teaches these things within the melodic and rhythmic conventions and style of the music, which plain scale and arpeggio exercises do not.
To echo jig above, "Irish traditional tunes are fun, satisfying, and rewarding precisely because they are simple and easy, and because they can also be complex, infinitely nuanced, and challenging."
For this music, scales are unnecessary. If you enjoy playing them, fine. I enjoy playing tunes.
# Posted on January 7th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: Practicing scales and arpeggios
It makes sense to me that some amount of fiddle drills *ought* to be helpful for some (not all) people, probably more so in the early months and years.
I think we would all agree that repeatedly playing something “wrong” reinforces the “wrongness.” It amounts to practicing and perfecting a mistake. A common bit of wisdom among athletic trainers and music teachers is that proper warmup helps to prevent “wrong” running, “wrong” jumping and “wrong” tune playing. When the muscles are flexed and stretched through their full playing range, the fingers are less likely to play “wrongly” and practice mistakes.
Scales and other exercises are designed as compact, intense exposure to the rudimentary moves needed in playing real music. More of the rudiments are exercised more intensely in five minutes of drills than in five minutes of tune playing.
On the other hand, some of the characteristic patina of Irish fiddling comes from not having worked out every last little technical detail until it’s smooth and shiny. So, it this has to be a binary argument, then I come down firmly on both sides. And in the middle. Fiddle drills are probably useful for some, harmful for some (much like over-reliance on reading music) and irrrelevant to others.
# Posted on January 7th 2008 by Bob himself
Re: Practicing scales and arpeggios
I used to practice cuts, taps and rolls up and down the scale. I suppose that was a waste of my time too.
Doesn't it make some sense to PRACTICE arpeggios and scales and PLAY tunes?
# Posted on January 7th 2008 by sbhikes
Re: Practicing scales and arpeggios
Will,
I respectfully submit that the process you're describing teaches muscle memory, then (presumably later) intonation by ear.
Now, scales and arpeggios. They don't take long to teach, and in my (admittedly only 20 years' worth of) experience teaching I've found some students respond well to them, so it's in the toolbox.
It's my guess that this is an old argument on your part, because it seem to me you're concluding the most extreme possible positions from my posts. I don't think a lukewarm fondness for scales on my part indicates a complete disregard for the ear in intonation, a lack of understanding of Pythagorean, just, mean, or even-tempered tuning, or in fact a complete reliance on scale and arpeggio studies. I realize that in pointing this out I'm potentially guilty of the same error, but is it possible you're thinking of someone else?
T.J.
# Posted on January 7th 2008 by reenactor
Re: Practicing scales and arpeggios
I agree, too much perfection can seem a bit soul less, but though i practice scales etc and i aim for a lovely professional; tone i doubt i will actually achieve it! . sigh,
I certainly didnt say scales are a requirement, they are simply advisable for a player to concentrate on tone and intonation without also having to try and play a tune.
)
# Posted on January 7th 2008 by jig
Re: Practicing scales and arpeggios
Will,
an aside, you are in the situation where your student is in front of you. You can correct them. |For someone like the poster here they are obviously on their own, they need a simple method of achieving good intonation and tone without the benefit of a teacher. I suggested, they get a teacher, however scales with reference to a tin whistle will do the job.
Going back to my other point, you spent years practicing scales, not on the fiddle perhaps but nonetheless you spent that time, Would you say that you would have been a better guitarist if you hadnt spent those hours training scales?
# Posted on January 7th 2008 by jig
Re: Practicing scales and arpeggios
oh yeah, and since I'm arguing on the Internet anyway:
the idea was raised a few times that technical mastery over one's instrument may make one sound too polished. Isn't it better to have technical control of your instrument, and then to make the proper choices to sound right for the genre?
# Posted on January 7th 2008 by reenactor
Re: Practicing scales and arpeggios
"the idea was raised a few times that technical mastery over one's instrument may make one sound too polished. Isn't it better to have technical control of your instrument, and then to make the proper choices to sound right for the genre?"
Yes, if you're able to actually implement those choices naturally. But there's some grey area. Also some gray area.
# Posted on January 8th 2008 by Bob himself
Re: Practicing scales and arpeggios
not a problem, just stop practising for a few days/ weeks and it all roughens up nicely!
# Posted on January 8th 2008 by jig
Re: Practicing scales and arpeggios
"scales with reference to a tin whistle" You must be tone bloody deaf if you think a beginner can use a tin whistle to tune to
# Posted on January 8th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Practicing scales and arpeggios
I honestly can't think of anything I've read that's less meaningful than "practising scales is good for your intonation." If you can't hear dodgy intonation whilst playing tunes you're not much of a musician yet really. Proper musicians are listening all the time and not just playing notes. And I've yet to hear a tin whistle that would be anything remotely useful for reference to for scales or intonation. Scale practice for grade exams has put millions of young musicians off from continuing with their instruments. What a lamentable waste of potential brilliance. If you play music for fun, practising scales is in severe danger of coming between you and the fun big time. It's a musty old Victorian anachronism. It's like trying to teach a novice driver to drive a car on a disused airfield rather than on roads, then expecting the novice to be a good driver on real roads.
# Posted on January 8th 2008 by Steve Shaw
Re: Practicing scales and arpeggios
I generally tune to a tin whistle rather than a tuning fork After all if you cant tune to it how are you going to play with it, or do you think the instrument of Willie Clancy, Micho Russel, Michael Dwyer, and all is some how second rate? or not traditional enough? [ sarcasm]
# Posted on January 8th 2008 by jig
Re: Practicing scales and arpeggios
So you play all the time with guys like that, do you, and not with guys who use Generations or Sweetones who forget to keep the mouthpiece a mathematically-accurate distance from their teeth and blow with exactly the same pounds per square inch at all times in ideal temperatures? Do yourself a favour. Buy yourself a cheapie Seiko tuner.
# Posted on January 8th 2008 by Steve Shaw
Re: Practicing scales and arpeggios
Hey Dan Foster,
Thanks very much for explaining the arpeggio.
Up to this point I've pretty much just been trying to learn tunes by ear. But I'm starting a session-style music class soon, and the teacher's advice was to practice scales and arpeggios, so the information you've provided is most helpful.
Thanks again!!
# Posted on January 8th 2008 by macnasparade
Re: Practicing scales and arpeggios
''Do yourself a favour. Buy yourself a cheapie Seiko tuner.''
LOL, Ive gone 30 yrs without one, im not starting now! mathmatically what? I thought this was trad! not physics.....
So Im in tune with the tuner but not with the whistler! great session that sounds like [sarcasm]
And to your question; not all the time.
# Posted on January 8th 2008 by jig
Re: Practicing scales and arpeggios
Honestly, this is important, pay attention, if you think a tin whistle is a fixed pitch instrument that you can tune fiddle too I'm flabbergasted
# Posted on January 8th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Practicing scales and arpeggios
macnasparade, your teacher isn't "jig" is it? Maybe you'd better get a decent teacher?
# Posted on January 8th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Practicing scales and arpeggios
What do you tune your fiddle too Llig? electronic tuner?
# Posted on January 8th 2008 by jig
Re: Practicing scales and arpeggios
I don't need to type "sarcasm" at the foot of my posts to indicate where it was intended. My suggestion that you buy a tuner was a suggestion that it was at least one way of getting yourself out of the sheer hell of attempting to tune to a whistle.
# Posted on January 8th 2008 by Steve Shaw
Re: Practicing scales and arpeggios
Steve, remind me what instrument you play? wasnt it the harmonica and box? much call in tuneing your instrument then? [sarcasm]
; I have absolutely no problem tuning to a whistle, it takes about 20 seconds on the guitar and a minuit for the fiddle. but then ive been doing it for 25 years so i should be pretty good at it by now....
# Posted on January 8th 2008 by jig
Re: Practicing scales and arpeggios
tuning to a whistle (or anything else for that matter) and checking intonation against a whistle (or anything else for that matter) are 2 entirely different things
most string players for instance will say that there is no way to tune a piano (that is why Bach titled his set "The Well Tempered Clavier") and it drives them nuts...
# Posted on January 8th 2008 by Sunnybear
Re: Practicing scales and arpeggios
"WE" tune our instruments to each other.
# Posted on January 8th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Practicing scales and arpeggios
I tune my harmonicas extremely carefully as it happens. No harmonica of mine ever makes it to a session until I've spent hours tuning and gapping it. Harmonicas come in a whole range of fine-tunings, and ITM players frequently go to pains to get them right for the context in which they are going to be played. I deal with this on my website. I really can't think why I'm bothering to tell you this. There seems little point. You've been doing it all for so long, as you never tire of telling us, that your ideas are set rock-solid in concrete.
# Posted on January 8th 2008 by Steve Shaw
Re: Practicing scales and arpeggios
Sunny, this is traditional Irish music. the tin whistle is a traditional Irish instrument the notes we want are the same notes the whistle plays' with steady tone, not a complicated or difficult feat. Perhaps
the problem with folk who play tempered instruments is that they assume that they are 'in tune' and the whistle isnt!
# Posted on January 8th 2008 by jig
Re: Practicing scales and arpeggios
And, as Michael says, once at the pub we all tune to each other. Don't ask me how. It's one of those organic sort of things. But one cry I've yet to hear is "Hey, you with the whistle! Give us an A, could you?"
# Posted on January 8th 2008 by Steve Shaw
Re: Practicing scales and arpeggios
So Llig, you play with a whistler?
# Posted on January 8th 2008 by jig
Re: Practicing scales and arpeggios
Hey, you with the whistle! Give us an A, could you?"
How many sessions do you play in? sounds like one pub in south Of England to me.
# Posted on January 8th 2008 by jig
Re: Practicing scales and arpeggios
Perhaps you could explain to the masses what a "tempered instrument" is. Taking time to tell us that may take your mind off scales and whistles for a minute.
# Posted on January 8th 2008 by Steve Shaw
Re: Practicing scales and arpeggios
Michael, we have him surrounded. Fer Chrissakes don't go to bed yet.
# Posted on January 8th 2008 by Steve Shaw
Re: Practicing scales and arpeggios
Can't say I'd think of a whistle as being a reliable pitch and I have sometimes seen players moving the mouthpiece of these things (where possible) presumably to tune them.
Me, I use a tuner and try to use my ears. I suspect that in sessions we are often trying to get a best fit, perhaps with some fixed pitched instruments that perhaps don't agree 100% with each other anyway...
# Posted on January 8th 2008 by Jon Freeman
Re: Practicing scales and arpeggios
Ah i really cant be bothered wasting my time playing stupid little games with you steve, good night.
In case you hadnt noticed this thread is about scales and arpeggio, you know those things you dont play. Quite why you want to hijack this thread to play your power trips is beyond me so go ahead.
Yes Llig , your right , of course, as usual, there now, does that make you feel better? slán.
# Posted on January 8th 2008 by jig
Re: Practicing scales and arpeggios
Jon, befor i hit the sack i'll respond , sure you tune a whistle, and as it warms up it sharpens. However warming up a whistle takes a moment. With the fipple fully in the whistle is as good a D as you will need, warmed up.
the whistle and the box are the most reliable instruments, and thats only a dry tuned box. What else do these people suggest? an electronic tuner? some arbitrary 440 classical standard? Geez, what ever next?!
# Posted on January 8th 2008 by jig
Re: Practicing scales and arpeggios
Classical musicians spend a lot of time practicing scales, arpeggios,and etudes as well as actual pieces because classical pieces are full of passages that are basically scales, arpeggios, and etudes. When you get to a 32nd-note run in a new piece you have the advantage of having kind of already played it before.
But you don't play trad the way that you normally play scales and arpeggios. The bowing and ornamentation are the hard parts and you don't get them from playing scales.
Of course, if you play arpeggios accross strings with a shuffle pattern and rolls that might be more appropriate practice...but at that point you're pretty much playing a tune.
# Posted on January 8th 2008 by Marklar
Re: Practicing scales and arpeggios
My CD has a version of Lord Inchiquin on it. The tune is full of scale runs. I play loads of tunes with arpeggios in the melodies. Try Soldiers' Joy or Miss Thornton's. So I play scales and arpeggios. But, you know? I never spent a single minute practising scales or arpeggios. I play scales and arpeggios in the tunes I play. That's my practice, thank you very much. I have fun with my scale and arpeggio practice because (a) when I'm practising them I don't know I'm practising them and (b) when I'm practising them I'm playing tunes, which is my whole raison d'être in ITM. Playing tunes. I'm a lazy sod really and I don't play tunes nearly enough. If I fretted about my scales and arpeggios I probably wouldn't play tunes at all. Shut up there, Michael!
# Posted on January 8th 2008 by Steve Shaw
Re: Practicing scales and arpeggios
TJ, I wasn't inferring anything extreme about your position or mine (jig has both extremes well covered all by himself). I was just explaining my own approach to teaching fiddle. I hope my previous post didn't come across as aggro--that's not at all what I intended, and I'm sorry if it hit your that way.
Yes, beginning musicians do use muscle memory to learn to play their instruments, and yes, it is a part of learning how to properly finger a fiddle. But the ear leads the fingers, not the other way around. Teaching good intonation by leading with the fingers is exactly what's wrong with the nasty tape-on-the-fingerboard approach.
My sense of it is that muscle memory is a byproduct of listening to your intonation--it comes *after* you use your ears.
Jig, it's hard to have a reasonable conversation with you. I think my previous posts explain why scales and arpeggios are part and parcel of being a good ***rock or blues guitarist.*** And also why that's not relevant to being a good or even great ***Irish fiddler.*** If you want to misrepresent posts and twist words, please stick to your own contributions.
BTW, you have a habit of saying, "...which I've been playing/teaching for xyz years, so I think I know what I'm doing." Whether you intend it or not, that comes of as saying anyone who disagrees with you is flat out wrong. Which gets old, eh? Lighten up on yourself.
Besides, I've been playing music of one form or another since I was 7, so going on 42 years now. I'm mortally happy that I haven't been doing it exactly the same way all those years. In fact, my attitudes, methods, techniques, and concepts of music have changed a lot over all that time, and still are. So it's 42 years of evolving experience, not 42 years of pedantic, static, dogma. I hope and pray that the same is true for you, though that's not at all clear from the way you type....
# Posted on January 8th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: Practicing scales and arpeggios
Hang on will, It seems to me that its you who is denying the efficiency of a technique from outside your style, I am someone who ? keeps an open mind. It is you telling us that scales are of no aid!
my attitude;
>>Who am, I to dissagree with international masters? i dont care to hold an opinion, If that is what is recomended by people who can play stuff I will never even approach . who am I , a rough country fiddler to agree or dissagree? No, I say; yes sir, <<
This was the question you chose to ignore;
''Going back to my other point, you spent years practicing scales, not on the fiddle perhaps but nonetheless you spent that time, Would you say that you would have been a better guitarist if you hadnt spent those hours training scales?''
yes fiddlers can get away with poor intonation. Does that make them better fiddlers?
# Posted on January 8th 2008 by jig
Re: Practicing scales and arpeggios
Can someone tell me how intonation can be improved on more by playing scales than by playing real tunes? I thought getting good intonation was all about listening to yourself and to others.
# Posted on January 8th 2008 by Steve Shaw
Re: Practicing scales and arpeggios
That's easy Steve, you bow a Csharp on your fiddle while blowing a D whistle that's stuck in your gob (don't have to cover the holes you see). Adjust your fingers (but not your breath) accordingly. Then get another whistle and tape up the second and third hole for your Cnat. With both whistles in your gob and a bit of clever tonguing (you'd be good at this) you can alternate between the Cnat and Csharp. Easy
# Posted on January 8th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Practicing scales and arpeggios
Stoppit, you're killing me!
# Posted on January 8th 2008 by Steve Shaw
Re: Practicing scales and arpeggios
Will - no worries. And there's probably a rich tradeoff between muscle memory and ears throughout a fiddler's career.
# Posted on January 8th 2008 by reenactor
Re: Practicing scales and arpeggios
TJ, yep, my guess is that out ears and fingers are physically connected. Otherwise what's the point of all that skin and gore between them?
Jig, if you can't be bothered to read my posts, then please don't pretend to tell me what I did or did not address. In my previous post, I said:
"I think my previous posts explain why scales and arpeggios are part and parcel of being a good ***rock or blues guitarist.*** And also why that's not relevant to being a good or even great ***Irish fiddler.***"
Since you seem unable to get the point, I'll summarize my previous posts on this.
Rock and blues guitar solo playing is built on a strong knowledge of and facility with scales and arppegios. Irish fiddling is not--it's built on a strong knowledge of and facility with ****tunes.****
I'd hazard a guess that if, at your next session, you launched into a blues scale based improvisation in the middle of Dispute at the Crossroads, your session mates would find the largest hammer available on short notice and make quick work of your fiddle.
Jaysus, I hate stooping to Jig's level of discourse, but maybe this will make a dent. I've studied fiddle with some of the big names, and I studied violin with Walter Oliveras (who has a critically acclaimed Carnegie Hall recital in his resume, so no slouch of a fiddler there). I've been at Irish fiddling for nearly 30 years. I'm NOT Yehudi Menuhin or Stephane Grapelli, nor do I aspire to be them. But I play a damn fine bit of Irish fiddle, there's nothing wrong with my tone or intonation. I happen to know that many of the other members here are of the same high caliber of musicianship.
So you sound like a total idiot when you presume to call them scratchy or out of tune, hack players. You'd be doing yourself a favor if you stopped doing that.
# Posted on January 8th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: Practicing scales and arpeggios
Well then will, you dont need to improve but why try to influence others to not play scales when you did so for many years?
All the Irish tunes are built upon scales, and intervals. Im just after teaching a student not 10 min ago. he had picked up numerous bad habits from tune playing. We had to go back to scales and arpeggios so he could concentrate upon finger position, residual tension, relaxation, good technique, distance the fingers leave the notes. All these things cant be addressed while also learning a tune. In fact he said a couple of times'' this isnt a tune is it?'' specifically requesting we do simple exercises where he could concentrate on the fundamentals.
you seem to be avoiding the question i askl..' perhaps you might like to answe?, Would you say that you would have been a better guitarist if you hadnt spent those hours training scales?''a simple yes or no will suffice.
Im not sure we need all the bluster but if it makes you feel better go ahead. At no point did i call'' them scratchy or out of tune, hack players.''
Those are your words. you would do well to confine your self to a true quotation rather than one distorted by your likes ,dislikes, and wounded pride.
And what is this? >>I'd hazard a guess that if, at your next session, you launched into a blues scale based improvisation in the middle of Dispute at the Crossroads, your session mates would find the largest hammer available on short notice and make quick work of your fiddle.<< come on man, pull your self together, you are the blues guitarist remember, not me.
All I am saying, and continue to do so is that , I much rather take the advice of international level instructors. and that is the advice I give to any student. If you cant handle that because you disagree well that's your problem.
I take you upon your word, a damn fine fiddler. fair enough, would you be worse if you had practised scales? how do you know you wouldn't be better if you had. you dont.
Steve a serious question, so a serious answer. Scales are not simply about intonation.
# Posted on January 8th 2008 by jig
Re: Practicing scales and arpeggios
You know what, jig, you've made that argument repeatedly now---"how do you know it doesn't work if you haven't tried it"---regarding your insistence on perfecting scales before learning tunes. It might be a tempting argument to make, but it follows poor logic---I could just as easily say that it's better to practice in two-hour chunks every two weeks rather than in smaller bits every day, and how do you know that doesn't work if you haven't tried it?
You're ignoring common sense. Not one single person on this board likes the idea of being limited to a starvation diet of scales and arpeggios---every single person who has responded to you has said that they dislike the idea and prefer to focus on music from the beginning. What good is your method if it makes people want to quit learning to play?
You've also made liberal use of famous musicians' names in supporting your love for scales, but you haven't proved that a single one of them follows your scales only method either. I know that Martin Hayes says he plays scales, but I can hardly imagine that his father prohibited him from learning tunes until he could play a perfect G major two-octave scale. It makes it hard to give credence to your points when you use examples like this.
Finally, it would be nice if you would allow for the fact that a variety of approaches is fundamentally a good thing. Just as we need diferent sizes of shoulder rests because everyone is built differently, we also need a variety of teaching methods because everyone learns differently and has different strengths and weaknesses. I have a friend who also takes lessons from my teacher and when she describes her lessons to me, they sound quite different from the ones I've had---this is because she is moving at a different pace than I am and she's much more concerned about reading music than I am, so our teacher focuses more on those things with her than with me. I wouldn't be happy if he worked that way with me.
You and Will/Michael represent two extremes of an argument---you rely rigidly on scales, and Will and Michael reject them altogether. It doesn't mean one extreme is right and the other is wrong. It would be nice if you didn't insist on that being so.
# Posted on January 8th 2008 by kennedy
;)
One good practice method is to play scales the way you play tunes.
Begin in one key & go to another, then another, & another eventually working back to where you began. This may also be used in putting together sets.With scales &/or arpeggios you can use something like the circle of fifths to resolve back to where you began. Other circles are possible. Here is an excellent discussion on circular methodology;
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/16301
# Posted on January 8th 2008 by Random_notes
Re: Practicing scales and arpeggios
Yes, good first post...
# Posted on January 8th 2008 by david_h
Re: Practicing scales and arpeggios
Kennedy, I don't reject scales altogether, I just don't think they're necessary for learning to play Irish fiddle. The tunes--and pieces of tunes--are all you need to learn this music to the highest ability. If someone wants to practice scales, that's fine by me. I'm merely suggesting the time would likely be better spent on actual tunes and bits of tunes.
Over the years, I have had a few students who really struggled with the fiddle--for them, it was a truly difficult instrument. Years and years ago, I would resort to the usual drills and exercises. And every single student in that predicament began losing the desire to play, to even try. But as soon as I gave them a simple tune instead, one that focused them on the same technique or issue as the drill, their enthusiasm came back. And they played more. And so they progressed--they overcame their difficulties. And they had fun doing it.
Though it's not always the case, I've met literally hundreds of "trained" violinists who quit playing music as soon as their parents let them, or as soon as they escaped school orchestra programs. As adults, they often voice regret that they didn't keep palying--and the most common sentiment is, "It just wasn't fun." When they see a bunch of 50 year olds having a blast playing good music in our session, they often tell us how much they wished music had been as much fun for them. Seriosuly--this happens on a regular basis. And my wife is one of these "used-to-play" violinists.
So jig's ***insistence*** on scales strikes me as narrow minded, and apt to sned a few people down a discouraging road. All I'm saying is there are other (perhaps more enjoyable) ways to obtain all the technical skill and mastery you need to play Irish fiddle.
Jig, are you deliberately incapable of understanding my answers? Yes, playing scales on guitar made me a better rock and blues guitarist. But playing scales on fiddle won't make me a better Irish fiddler. If I wanted to play jazz, rock, or blues fiddle, then I would probably fly through some scale-based patterns (not basic scales themselves) now and then. Not to imrpove my intonation, but to keep those improvisational chunks fresh and ready. That's how improvised music works in those genres.
And that has absolutely nothing at all to do with playing traditional Irish fiddle.
# Posted on January 8th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: Practicing scales and arpeggios
So your student picked up bad habits from tune-playing. I do that too! I have fun. That's a very bad habit, best avoided by sticking to scales. I pick up my pint between tunes too! I find tunes to be just the right length to build up enough thirst for yet another glug. Anathema! I'm just wondering what other bad habits tune-playing could bring about. The inability to play scales, perhaps?
# Posted on January 8th 2008 by Steve Shaw
It would actualy help
Most likely it would improve one's ability to play
arpeggios & scales in the keys & modes in which
the tunes are played.
# Posted on January 8th 2008 by Random_notes
Re: Practicing scales and arpeggios
Will, you do reject scales as a teaching method. Which kind of surprised me, actually, given your fluency with written music and music theory in general (I've learned more about music theory from you than anyone else!). I could never say I disagree, baby beginner that I am, but I think if I had been your student I might have felt like I was missing something. I like the fact that I can play scales, I'm kind of proud of it. You can also say the same thing about written music---it's not necessary---but it does have value, especially if you ever want to play any other style of music, which I might someday.
# Posted on January 8th 2008 by kennedy
Practicing
I believe it may be as simple as the
Irish traditional session bias.
Scale practice (& written music) is acceptable
in its' place. It does not have a place in practicing orlearning or playing Irish session tunes. That is my synopsis of the majority opinion of the board.
Personally I am skeptical of such an inflexible opinion.
Of course I am skeptical of jigs' inflexibility as well.
# Posted on January 8th 2008 by Random_notes
*
in practicing, learning, or playing of Irish session tunes . . .
# Posted on January 8th 2008 by Random_notes
*
the "dominant vocal" majority (?) majority . . .
# Posted on January 8th 2008 by Random_notes
Arpeggio
I did a (futile) search of tunes
based on scales 1st & the arpeggios.
This is all that I could find;
http://www.thesession.org/index.php/search?q=egb+bge&start=0&scope=The+Session
# Posted on January 9th 2008 by Random_notes
Re: Practicing scales and arpeggios
will, I play tunes on guitar, not jazz or blues, trad tunes, I play them on the fiuddle, banjo and whistle. I recomend people starting learn to pronounce their musical words befor going on to speak. I am not criticising your methods, if it works then all is good, you have strongly held beliefs regarding scales. fair enough. but dont confuse what we do with a strict classical dry training method. I actually think you are exaggerating my position so as to give yourself room to knock it. I think thats unfair. and an untrue representation of my suggestions. scales are a useful tool. I am not going to abandon them because they work as demonstrated. I am not rigidly proposing them,s they still help me 30yrs on and 10 tr old students. If a student comes allong and can demonstrate competance then all the better. The most satisfying aspect of learning to play is success. that is the aim. I am prepared tyo use any method to help me and my students progress. Are you?
Kennedy, i think you also are exaggerating , scales, the notes within them that we use are an essential part of trad. every tune uses notes. I simply follow the advice i am given by those i know can do it for real.I am glad you have taken it to heart, whether it comes from me or your teacher or fred blogs is irrelevant. no doubt you can see the benefits allready.
good luck and enjoy your music. enjoy your life, even the so called boreing bits.
# Posted on January 9th 2008 by jig
Re: Practicing scales and arpeggios
The thing is, Kennedy, if someone *wants* to play scales, they can, and they'll find it a pretty easy go if they've been playing tunes as long as you have.
And I do cover the concepts of intervals between pitches, which leads to talking about scales at some point. But for Irish trad fiddle, I don't ask my students to actually *practice* playing scales. Anything they can learn from playing scales, they can learn from playing tunes.
Maybe it helps to be reminded of the context we find ourselves playing this music in (as Steve has started to do above). The tradition of playing Irish tunes is built on playing for dancers who have specific steps and patterns for the tunes. The music has also evolved into a party unto itself, in the form of sessions. In either case, the music is played solo, or with others and essentially in unison. Long flights of improvised counterpoint or harmonizing (no pun intended) aren't part of the tradition. Pints and craic and being sociable are part of the tradition. So are playing in tune, with a strong tone, and knowing the tunes inside and out. Knowing lots of tunes is smiled upon as well.
To a beginner, playing the music may seem difficult and tricky, something to be analyzed and taken apart to learn by bits and pieces. But in the grand scheme of things, this really is simple music (compared to a Paganini caprice, say, or a Thelonius Monk opus). You can play Irish fiddle all your life at the highest caliber and never once give thought to honing your intonation in 9th position on that fiddle of yours.
So for 99.99999% of the people who come to me to learn to play Irish fiddle, the scales and arpeggios and Kreuzer drills just aren't important or necessary. I'd rather teach them (and they agree--they'd rather learn) the tunes themselves, how to contribute to a session, which are the best draft beers at the local pub, and how to politely get the name of the cutie over there playing whistle.
So Kennedy, keep playing scales if you enjoy them and if they give you something back. That's great. no worries. But don't be surprised if some day a year or three down the road you realize that you'd rather just play the tunes.
# Posted on January 9th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: Practicing scales and arpeggios
Will. I appreciate what you say and that you are saying it with the experience of a teacher. But I still see scales more from Kennedy's angle. Quite a lot of us are learning instruments after a few decades of life and learning. We are not kids pushed into it by parents. We are old enough to have a suggestion put to us, try it out for a bit and decide whether it seems to be helping in any way. I think I am too sceptical to suffer from Michaels 'placebo effect', but none of us can carry out 'double blind' trials of the things we do to help us learn. Nor, I think, can we discount, or maybe sometimes recognise, the influence of our previous experience.
I am sure that scales - and I just mean D and G major scales and running around the same patterns in both before doing the same with simpe tunes - have helped me map out in my mind the small set of notes that this music uses. Something to do with intervals. Learning tunes became easier after I started doing it. And when I get G# key on my flute one of the first things I do will be to do the same things in A. But so far as improving how I execute sequences of notes is concerned I don't find it much different to fragments of tunes.
The suggestion for scales came from an experienced teacher's online tutor. It helps me, but its voluntary.
[I wrote this before kennedy's last post but I type too slowly to start again]
# Posted on January 9th 2008 by david_h
Re: Practicing scales and arpeggios
kreutzer drills? no, simple major scales
>>What utterly astounds me is that you persist in attempting to promulgate your idiosyncratic and irrefutably wrong approach to traditional music on these pages. Clearly, you're descended from armadillos.<<
so refute this then mac...
''A good performer, playing solo-the best way of rendering this music- will play a tune over three, four or more times, introducing as he proceeds fresh forms of ornamentation,melodic and rhythmic variations. It will be noticed that the first bout in such a performance is the least embellished. One is accordingly provided a measure or line, the deviation from which by way of embellishment add point and flavour to the music. The implicit contrast is lost when a tune is started in a highly ornate manner and the enjoyment of the listener thereby diminished.''
# Posted on January 6th 2008 by jig .
# Posted on January 9th 2008 by jig
Re: Practicing scales and arpeggios
Think on this a spell:
I have heard people who can play scales and play them well, but who can't make music.
But I have never run into anyone who can play music well who can't, on a whim, play scales, whether or not they ever "practiced" them.
Another way to think of it: If you can pick up tunes on the fly, it's so much ridiculously easier to play a scale--in any key and mode--on the fly. So if some day I decide I want to play jazz fiddle, I'll spend a day or two running around the fingerboard sussing our every possible scale and permutation of scales. As an experienced fiddler, that will be easy. And far more efficient than having spent weeks, months, or years doing the same as a beginning fiddler....
# Posted on January 9th 2008 by Will CPT
Practicing
So should any time be spent practicing
articulations (ornamentation)?
# Posted on January 9th 2008 by Random_notes
Re: Practicing scales and arpeggios
''But don't be surprised if some day a year or three down the road you realize that you'd rather just play the tunes.''
well after 15 yrs of fiddle an 30+ of guitar i still practice scales, so dont be surprised if after 30yrs you still enjoy scales and simple isolation exercises.
# Posted on January 9th 2008 by jig
Re: Practicing scales and arpeggios
Oops. And I crossed with Will
Question to Will - how much of what is being said is specific to fiddle ? Things don' t seem to get so heated between the flute players here. (FWIW I'll give simple song melodies slowly and long tones about equal points)
# Posted on January 9th 2008 by david_h
Re: Practicing scales and arpeggios
David and I seem to agree, although for fiddle, it's more of a physical thing---a scale or two stretches out my hand and gets my fingers in their right places. Like stretching out my hamstrings before going for a run. And then the notes in the tunes come more easily and accurately. I know I can use tunes for this purpose, but if my fingers are rusty, I'd rather mangle a scale while I'm warming up than a tune.
And several people have said they don't want to waste time doing technical exercises that they could be using to play tunes. I guess that would be a factor if your practice time is limited. I practice two hours a day on average---ten minutes' worth of scales out of that isn't really a big deal. And Will, I don't *enjoy* them! I just want to play better and they've been helping!
And Jig, you didn't respond to a single thing I said.
# Posted on January 9th 2008 by kennedy
Arpeggios
Will I do know a very good fiddle player
who has played in every genre.
She had never practiced scales or arpeggios.
I had to walk her through Em & D arpeggios when
I was showing her a basic E dorian tune.
She was struggling.
The next day I heard her running through
some arpeggios.
# Posted on January 9th 2008 by Random_notes
Re: Practicing scales and arpeggios
David h - As I've said above, if you enjoy playing scales and it gives something back to you, then do it. Lots of people don't like scale exercises, so I give them a wide open door to the music without having to play scales.
Also, I find that flute and whistle are so obviously designed around a specific scale or three that it's almost hard to avoid playing scales. Take a keyless D flute--start with all the fingers down and lift one at a time in sequence from the bottom and you've played almost the whole D major scale. It;s built right into the instrument. So, sure, on flute, it makes sense to learn your D, Edor, Em, G, Ador, and Bm scales. Just start on a hole and work your way up and down. Then do it again on the next hole up. And so on. You'll have the flute sussed out in half a day. Then you can play tunes.
Fiddle however is designed around intervals of a fifth. So it's more natural to play fifths and patterns of other intervals, going across the strings. That's why soooooo many fiddle tunes (tunes composed on fiddle) have phrases like |DFAF BFAF| and |G2 BG dGBG|.
[And please bear in mind that it's jig who's painting me as some extremist here--I haven't said "don't play scales." I just said they're unecessary for Irish music, and Irish fiddle in particular.]
# Posted on January 9th 2008 by Will CPT
DFAF BFAF
http://www.thesession.org/index.php/search?q=DFAF+BFAF&start=0&scope=The+Session
# Posted on January 9th 2008 by Random_notes
G2 BG dGBG
http://www.thesession.org/index.php/search?q=G2+BG+dGBG&start=0&scope=The+Session
# Posted on January 9th 2008 by Random_notes
Re: Practicing scales and arpeggios
All posting together. David, I hope I answered at least part of your question.
Muse, I suspect your "very good" fiddler wasn't familiar with Irish music and that's why she was struggling. It's possible--even likely--to play lots of other genres of music and rarely or never run across a dorian tune. But dorian happens to be a defining feature of Irish trad music. Especially dorian tunes with a wandering 7th tone.
Kennedy, what a lot of Irish fiddlers do to warm up (besides a pint of the black stuff) is to start with a favorite, easy tune. Martin Hayess has said he likes to warm up on The Morning Star. And he'll run through it in several different keys just to get his fingers and mind joined at the hip, so to speak.
This is my preferred method too--the Morning Star is a great warm up tune. So is the West Clare Reel, Bag of Spuds, Miller of Droghan, Hole in the Hedge, or Buried My Wife and Danced on Her Grave. I'll often start with one of these and let it take me on a stroll through two or three keys. When you use the same tune for months or even years like this (rotating among a choice few), it becomes easier to play in different keys on a whim. And it instantly puts me in a tune-playing frame of mind, which feels good (cuz playing tunes is what I enjoy), and also comes in handy when you're late to a session or gig and everyone else is already warmed up and cranking along. My warm up routine at home has taught me to jump right into playing the music, not needing to run through some artificial (sorry if that sounds harsh) or stripped down exercise first.
Mind you, I'm not arguing that you should change your ways. Just explaining what works for me and suggesting it as a possible alternative, for future consideration.
# Posted on January 9th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: Practicing scales and arpeggios
LOL Muse, excellent roster of examples.
Here's a great jig that uses arpeggios and a straight D scale run (at the end of the B part): http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display.php/644
I learned this one at the knee of Brian Conway. He called it Joe Burke's.
# Posted on January 9th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: Practicing scales and arpeggios
Kennedy. Now I have started to get my head around how the notes work together the physical part is getting more important. Someone said above (or on the discussion that I suspect sparked this one) that scales and patterns are a quick way of working through the range of notes needed and some important intervals.
Some days my lips take some time to remember what they are supposed to do for some notes and it is somehow less annoying to foul up a scale rather than a tune.
# Posted on January 9th 2008 by david_h
Re: Practicing scales and arpeggios
when practicing scales, should one use the dots, or learn by ear?
just curious
# Posted on January 9th 2008 by Sunnybear
Re: Practicing scales and arpeggios
actually, it occurs to me thusly...
if one has the foresight to know that their end goal may only to play trad, then start by and learn by trad tunes
if ones end goal is to learn the violin (or other instrument) and really know that instrument (really speaking of the violin here) then it could be advantageous to play scales and arpeggios in different positions and keys and rhythyms, too!
it can't hurt (imho)
but , speaking for myself, it comes down to a matter of time management and economics...would I rather be spending my time playing tunes or playing scales
tunes are a lot ore fun
scales (and kreutzer rip) may help me to know my instrument
and by doing this, if I am only playing trad tunes, my time is better spent playing tunes
# Posted on January 9th 2008 by Sunnybear
Re: Practicing scales and arpeggios
Thanks Will.
Maybe off topic, but I think the mental map that is forming in my head of the notes we use has a basis more as Llig described in another thread - a sequence from D to the b in the octave above (in my case also going down to the C# or C below for English and Scottish tunes). With the tunes in different modes often working over all of it but coming home in different places. That fits with the way I had been thinking about the tunes before I read any music theory. (Octave, whats an octave ?).
Have just had a look at the mandolin gathering dust on the wall - far too many notes to choose from.
Response to Sunnybear - don't know about dots for practising scales, but in another context I have been trying to use dots for singing (to say I was 'reading' them would be a gross exaggeration) and have started thinking of the dots whilst playing the scales - but it is to help me learn the dots, not the scales.
# Posted on January 9th 2008 by david_h
Re: Practicing scales and arpeggios
Sorry kennedy, i didnt realise you were asking me something''
->>-I could just as easily say that it's better to practice in two-hour chunks every two weeks rather than in smaller bits every day, and how do you know that doesn't work if you haven't tried it?,<<
The answer is obviously that you dont.
As in any educational system we go by the advice we get from our instructors. I consistantly suggest that students try to find the best instruction they can find. referencing against the tried and true methods traditionally handed down which they can get from reputable books. so to recap, we take the advice from those who have been before us.
.I just said they're unecessary for Irish music, and Irish fiddle in particular''
Maybe for you will, with decades of scale practice behind you. however for me you are quite wrong., so your statement is simply, factually inaccurate. How you can make such a catagoric statement and expect to be taken seriously is beyond me. There are no ifs and buts. you are mistaken. Now if you are speaking for your self, then fair enough. but to expect others to spend years struggling because they take your statement as a fact.is unfair. how many students would listen to that and go, ok great i dont need to play my scales.
Without a doubt I needed scales to train my fiddle. I allready had plenty of tunes.
Are you saying that the practice of scales can somehow hinder a student? I think not. I know for a fact that the playing of scales can help immensely.
So a tune has some parts of a scale in it, of course, they all do..that is besides the point, we play tunes as well as soon as a simple scale can be played.you ever see a fiddler who got worse from practising scales?
I am sure with determination, persistance good instruction some folk can achieve a high level of trad playing with little in the way of scales. and...? That does not argue against scales at all. scales are of immense help.
The young lad today enjoys scales, he enjoys tunes too, but too much tunes puts him off, because they are hard for him, what he really enjoys beyond anything is success and praise. success at a D major scale is of far greater value than a poor attempt at a tune. which he may well forget till next time. his scales? no, he cant forget them. he can practice them every day, slowly carefully, listening to tone pronunciation.
We slowly achieve a tune, by ear alone, committed to memory, with good tone. that is my aim and once again if you or anyone can demonstrate a disadvantage to scales i am prepared to listen.
As of yet the only possible contender is that too much scale work can put a student off. Fair enough, too much of anything can put someone off. too many tunes can put some one off. so? does that mean we dont teach tunes in case it puts someone off? I dont think so...
So any one with a clear and concise argument against scales as opposed to the promotion of tunes? which i do as much as any one. at the right time, which is dictated by the student, not their ego, but their capability as judged by me. the instructor. [Not the parent]
# Posted on January 9th 2008 by jig
Re: Practicing scales and arpeggios
By ear of course sunny bear, by ear!
# Posted on January 9th 2008 by jig
Re: Practicing scales and arpeggios
The muse: you seem to be going to lengths to show that there are few actual arpeggios and scales in ITM. (I may be mistaken about that).
The thing is, if scales and arpeggios (of the "let's practice some basic scales and arpeggios" variety) do not form the meat of ITM tunes, what is the point of playing them?
# Posted on January 9th 2008 by Tirno
Re: Practicing scales and arpeggios
"when practicing scales, should one use the dots, or learn by ear?
just curious"
Actually, that's a good point. Open a scale book and look at the bowings and rhythms that are written there. They are written in classical style, and are meant to be played that way.
And that's really the problem. Even if you aren't playing scales from dots, you're probably playing in that style.
That's helpful if you have a scale run in a classical piece; you've already practiced it. So violinists practice scales even at the highest levels, because it's useful.
Look at some of those tunes with "scales" in them. Sure look like scales when looking at the dots. But do you play the tune that way? The way that scales are normally played? I sure hope not.
Practicing scales is practicing classical style, which isn't very useful for trad playing. Of course, you can practice the scales by playing them in the same way that you would play tunes (bowing, ornamentation, etc.), but that is not any more difficult than just playing some tunes so why bother, unless you just enjoy it.
Scales can be useful in the beginning for both trad and classical players. But while experienced violinists still get benefit from practicing scales, I don't think that a trad musician gets much out of them once he/she knows where the fingers go.
# Posted on January 9th 2008 by Marklar
Re: Practicing scales and arpeggios
To be clear (and then I have dinner to cook and a session to enjoy):
There's no harm in playing scales, if that's what you want to do.
But for a lot of people, there's a tradeoff because time is limited (never enough hours in a day). So time spent playing scales takes away from time spent playing tunes. If the genre of music you want to play consists of simple tunes, almost all in first position, built on oft-repeated idiomatic chunks and phrases, then--for the majority of people--playing scales is not necessary.
That's all.
Yes, the tunes are full of arpeggios and scales. That's why the tunes themselves teaach us what we need to know.
Imagine learning to speak English by repeating over and over:
do
like
eggs
not
ham
I
green
and
do like eggs not ham I green and
do like eggs not ham I green and
do like eggs not ham I green and
(yawn. What the 'ell's this mean? How am I supposed to inflect this "sentence?" Which words should I emphasize? Which words are the most important?)
do like eggs not ham I green and
do like eggs not ham I green and
do like eggs..........
Then three weeks later your teacher throws this at you:
eggs not ham I green and do like
and then suggests an arpeggio:
eggs ham green like green ham
eggs ham green like green ham
eggs ham green like green ham
I feel sorry for the poor child who grows up listening to (and regurgitating) Dr. Seuss this way....
# Posted on January 9th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: Practicing scales and arpeggios
Ha Will, I love that book. I play a game with my daughter where we have to do each page without taking a breath. Do you think that would be a good exercise for playing the flute?
And something I only spotted the other day, Sam is dressed like a Laplander. As in Sam I am, or, Sami am. Genius
# Posted on January 9th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Practicing scales and arpeggios
LOL, I just tried saying "I don not like them on a train, I do not like them in a plane" with my lips tucked into their flute embouchure and it sounded like Tony Blair on acid.....
# Posted on January 9th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: Practicing scales and arpeggios
Tirno actually sometimes I practice tunes & sometimes I practice by using exercises.
I develop scale & arpeggio exercises on the fly.
They are not quite tunes & not quite scales . . .
& they are different every time.
It is something I use as meditation to shift from conscious thinking to the subconscious & just go where my ear takes me. It is great for relaxing m fingers because I do not have to 'think' about where they go. My ear does it for me.
Thing is arpeggios do not have to be just the pattern of 1 -3 -5 octave . . . In that sense trad has plenty of arpeggios ~ but probably less in terms of scales ~
# Posted on January 9th 2008 by Random_notes
Re: Practicing scales and arpeggios
My eyes were glazing over until those last two posts. Cheers, chaps, for going the step beyond insanity. I feel incapable of further rational thought. About anything.
# Posted on January 9th 2008 by Steve Shaw
Re: Practicing scales and arpeggios
With great respect, Muse, I meant Michael's and Will's!
# Posted on January 9th 2008 by Steve Shaw
Re: Practicing scales and arpeggios
when Dr. Shinichi Suzuki developed (wrote down on paper) his "method " for learning the violin, he started with a simple tune, written by Mozart that goes now by the name "Twinkle Twinkle..."
he does not start a child off with scales. He starts them off with tune. He refers to this method as the "mother tongue" approach, and he advocates playing by ear.
Now there are plenty of critics to his approach, as you can only imagine, but the basic premise is sound...that you learn to talk by listenign to others speak, and why should you not learn to play the violin by listening and imitating others playing.
Later i the program "tonalization" is introduced...basically intervals and such to be LISTENED to, hence the name (sorry to yell, but eneded the emphasis)...but the basic premise of listening is the key...
there are many many talented young and old Suzuki method players..
can they read music as well...maybe not, but they sure can listen to themselves and others better!
# Posted on January 9th 2008 by Sunnybear
Re: Practicing scales and arpeggios
"By ear of course sunny bear, by ear!"
oh, pooh
everyone knows that is not true..
how would you know what note you are playing???
# Posted on January 9th 2008 by Sunnybear
Re: Practicing scales and arpeggios
Will?
Are you O.K.
# Posted on January 9th 2008 by Random_notes
http://www.seussville.com/games/lb_oh_the_places.html
# Posted on January 9th 2008 by Random_notes
Re: Practicing scales and arpeggios
We're all OK. No worries!
Wibble.
# Posted on January 9th 2008 by Steve Shaw
Re: Practicing scales and arpeggios
Hello Steve;
Will freaked me out. I hope he does not start writing children's stories.
Cheers!
# Posted on January 9th 2008 by Random_notes
Re: Practicing scales and arpeggios
Should I ring for an ambulance?
# Posted on January 9th 2008 by Phantom Button
Re: Practicing scales and arpeggios
My two cents...
30 years of playing classical music:
Number of hours spent practising scales and arpeggios - hundreds
Were they necessary? Absolutely essential - they form a major part of classical music
5 years of playing ITM
Number of hours spent practising scales and arpeggios - none at all
Were they necessary? Absolutely not - they form such an insignificant part of ITM
Is practising them beneficial or a waste of time for this music?
If you took all the time spent practising scales and used it to learn tunes which contain all the notes of the scale you'd achieve the same result (knowing where all the notes are) but you'd also have learned several useful tunes.
Also, following on from Screetch's comment earlier, unless you are playing the scales with appropriate lilt you are teaching yourself to play in a style which has no place in this musical form. If you play them in jig time or reel time or polka time you're doing something more useful, but stil not as useful as learning a tune.
Can anyone truly say they enjoy playing scales? Each to his own, I guess, but to me it's boring as bat droppings. You could even say they're just crap tunes
Would I recommend a beginner practise them? Not at all. I personally feel this is misdirecting their efforts which could be far better applied elsewhere.
Maybe, just maybe, they help in finger placement on the fiddle. On the other hand, maybe they are a crutch that's helping people to avoid the hard work they need to put in to learn how to pick the intervals in a tune and play them automatically. Sometimes doing the hard thing turns out to be far more productive in the long run.
Please note - this is not meant as a personal attack on anybody, or as taking sides. It's just my own experience.
Eno
# Posted on January 9th 2008 by bc_box_player
Re: Practicing scales and arpeggios
Wow, the title of this tread sounded so benign. I wouldn't have guessed it so controversial
# Posted on January 9th 2008 by PatrickJWK
Re: Practicing scales and arpeggios
Ahh, Bc a post thats relevant, You say you spent years playing scales. because they are relevant to classical music. Are you then saying that you forgot all that when you started playing trad? I am not a classical player. I play trad. Scales are very useful for me. No one can deny that. therefor the situation is likely similar for others.
Ps mozart didnt write twinkle, he adapted the old European folk melody as far as i can gather. there appear to be records pre-dateing him. of course i could be mistaken in this., i too had the- impression he conceived the melody, however....
# Posted on January 9th 2008 by jig
Re: Practicing scales and arpeggios
....It appears that he just popularised it.
Sunnybear, this tune twinkle, I too have taught this at an early stage, though me thinks adults might not take to kindly to it
Really, a tune simple enough to be playing well is perfectly adequate as an introduction. I consistently recomend airs to beginners, surely one tune played well is better than 20 played badly? or is it simple acquisition they are after?
However there are not too many tunes as simple as that in the trad repertoire. A one octive scale is fine for one octave tunes.
Though some people seem set in their beliefs , the idea in scale practice is to make it easier to achieve our goals. You have a problem with that? the notes can be mastered with referance to a simple form.
Put it this way, If I am teaching boxing, do you think i would put my students in to the ring and say, right you want to fight, go for it!!? of course not. they train basic techniques of attack and defence first. they learn how to deal with violence within a safe structured environment.
Agreed this is not boxing however the same principles apply in teaching any thing; let the student master simple things before approaching complicated ones.
# Posted on January 9th 2008 by jig
Re: Practicing scales and arpeggios
What can you get out of scales that you can’t get out of playing a tune ?
What can you get out of playing a tune that you can’t get out of scales ?
# Posted on January 9th 2008 by BegF
Re: Practicing scales and arpeggios
And would I rather play twinkle twinkle or a scale - twinkle gets it every time.
To clarify my comments on classical music, I played the piano for all those years, and only took up the box five years ago. I'd still have to think hard before playing scales on the box, and wouldn't guarantee I'd get it right first time.
And naturally you give students something simple to start off. Don't they always recommend you start with polkas?
# Posted on January 9th 2008 by bc_box_player
Re: Practicing scales and arpeggios
!; The time and space to work on your basic techniques without having to also deal with learning a tune. This is invaluable for me, and my students.
Learning a tune is a separate issue to learning the mechanics of the instrument. Sure if you wish to approach these two issues at the same time go ahead, but personally i dont recomend it. Back to the boxing analogy, it would be like trying to learn how to punch while being battered in a ring!, not advisable
2; You will get a tune . whether you can play that tune with any competence is another matter. Why try to do something that is actually out of your reach? you simply wont be able to play a tune[trad] well when starting. You will devote valuable time and energy approaching two issues at once. Diluting your efforts. Sure after years of this you may well be able to play your tunes , in spite of your approach. not because of it.
I suppose it depends on what you want to achieve, as does so much in life. You want tp play tunes, or you want to play tunes to the best of your ability.
Back to the boxing analogy. You can learn to fight by going out there and fighting, you win some lose some. but dont think you will pick up good form, techniques which will enable you 20, 30 yrs down the road to progress because you wont.
I see too many fiddlers with atrocious techniques from learning tunes at the expense of their technique. sure they can play some tunes, but at what cost?
We mostly use a classical bow grip these days, we mostly hold the fiddle under the chin not on the chest. These are lessons we have learnt from the classical world. Why ignore the other lessons they have to teach? to what benefit?
# Posted on January 9th 2008 by jig
Re: Practicing scales and arpeggios
But for how long are you going to play twinkle ? I still play my scales, , mind you I never learnt twinkle twinkle so perhaps i am missing something
Yeah polkas are good starting tunes, but to play them at pace , with good enunciation and rhythm, is perhaps not so simple, A simple air such as The Foggy dew, or The Bold Fenian men, are in my estimation simpler to play right. well known and powerfully emotional stuff.
# Posted on January 9th 2008 by jig
Re: Practicing scales and arpeggios
Jig. I'll just have another go, having had a night's kip and then having questioned my own sanity and found it sadly wanting (why else would I be posting this...quack...). You "see many fiddlers with atrocious techniques from learning tunes at the expense of their technique." [sic] You are now (did I really say "now?") resorting to making this up as you go along. Is this still to do with scales? What aspects of "technique" are picked up by playing scales that are not picked up by learning tunes? Holding the bow correctly? Nifty fingering? Playing in tune? Getting good tone? Now, continuing for another painful moment with your extremely inappropriate boxing analogy, I admit you have me on the ropes here somewhat as I don't play the fiddle. But I do play an instrument and I have never practised scales. Sheerly out of a demented form of interest I picked up a harmonica a minute ago and played the diatonic scale up and down it. Hey, I could do it!! Never even thought to try it before! So I should like to present you with the following hypothesis. An incredibly effective way of learning to play scales is to spend years playing tunes. Voila! (or should that be "viola?")
Wibble
# Posted on January 9th 2008 by Steve Shaw
Re: Practicing scales and arpeggios
Yeah, when I teach someone to ski, I don't put him on some skis and get him to practice on easy slopes. They might get a bad habit or something. I get them to practice movements completely out of context, safely away from any snow, with no feedback which will tell them whether they are getting it right or not.
These proofs by analogy are so enlightening.
# Posted on January 9th 2008 by Tirno
Re: Practicing scales and arpeggios
I don't think you should allow them anywhere near skis for at least the first two years! Just show them videos of ski maestros in action, starting with Eddie The Eagle and working upwards (in a manner of speaking). You could even, in the case of ITM, show videos of the great fiddle masters playing scales, up and down, up and down, in all 12 major keys for starters, before you even let your students near a fiddle. Just dig those "techniques"! Jig has good lists of such maestros in his posts. That'll learn all them young buggers how much fun it is!
# Posted on January 9th 2008 by Steve Shaw
Re: Practicing scales and arpeggios
Thread still going, but mainly round in circles.
Been thinking about Will's answer to my question. I think my use of scales is much more mundane than anything someone might do if wanting to improvise or even work on, say, a Dorian scale. Just a case of helping to internalise a move of some familiar reference points in a major scale caused by, say changing C# to C. One thing that does on a flute is move some patterns (in tunes or whatever) that are easy on one part of the range of the instrument (all in the bottom octave) to somewhere where the mechanics are a bit harder (between the octaves), which is a place where the B part of many tunes hangs around for a long time. So nice to move a small set of old friends to a new place to mess around with and have a workout during practice. And those old friends include some things that are stress free and open to messing around with (scales etc) and some that are compelete in themselves (mainly small vocal-range traditional song melodies covering a range of modes)
Will, Michael. All this stuff about words (and Michael's earlier bit about the alphabet) just seems silly. Sentences draw from a pool of thousands of words, each of which also means something on its own. But there are only a few ways, often only one, of arranging a small set to make sense. The order of an alphabet is a just a convention - it makes life simpler if we all learn them in the same order. Notes and intervals are not like that. Are they ?
# Posted on January 9th 2008 by david_h
Re: Practicing scales and arpeggios
Someone right up the thread said that playing scales is good for your intonation because you can more easily hear when you're out. I don't completely agree with this. There are many ways within all the scales of being "out" in that some of the instruments we play, and have to join in with in sessions, come in different fine-tunings, and some (notoriously, whistles) can be quite a bit all over the place in terms of accuracy to any particular fine-tuning scheme. Then of course you may be battling with the intonation issues of players of other non-fixed pitch instruments. Harmonicas come in a number of fine tunings from Just intonation right through to equal temperament, though I doubt that most people would do any conscious tweaking to get them to a particular scheme even if they knew or cared what fine-tuning their harps were in. So I don't think that playing scales in isolation is going to help at all when it comes to the session situation. You really do have to listen to what's going on around you and make constant micro-adjustments to your pitch as you go along. You can even do that with a harmonica. That kind of good musicianship can't come out of working on your intonation by sitting at home playing scales. Doing scales in isolation may or may not help you if you are going to play unaccompanied (though I still think you can equally well, or even better, hear poor intonation in tunes), but I think this approach could be a setback in sessions akin to the rigidity of learning tunes just from dots.
# Posted on January 9th 2008 by Steve Shaw
Re: Practicing scales and arpeggios
Timo surely you show them how to put the ski's on? give them some advice? or you just hand them, some skis and say right there you go? perhaps you expect an 8 year old to figure it out them selves? you give them a lift up the mountain? or a ski lift? you put them on the slopes or in an artificial environment?
My these facetious comments are so helpfull
Steve,>>Is this