My boyfriend and I are relatively new to the music and to sessions. We've been going to a local session for about half a year now. Recently we visited a couple of sessions in another city. These sessions were advertised as featuring a particular musician. One of them was amplified and the other was not. The featured musician was really good.
Anyway, we got to talking later and my boyfriend said to me the music was really good but it wasn't really a "session", was it? Having only been to ours I don't really know how to answer.
I think what he meant was that the featured musician played with the tunes like somebody like Matt Molloy is capable of playing with the tunes. You know, you recognize the tune but he's playing all kinds of variations and some are really amazing and you are wowed by his brilliance.
At our session we all play the melody (except for the backers). The really good musicians also just play the basic melody but they're just way better at it. They don't try to wow anybody with brilliant variations. I'm sure they could if they wanted to though.
We pretty much decided that what we saw was more like a performance but with some other musicians who join in in the background. So are your sessions like one or the other? How much variation-making is going on?
I don't know that I can agree with you on that one, Michael - there's a lot you can do with a tune and still be playing "just the tune, no variations". Timing, phrasing, ornamentation - lots of things that still keep the same basic tune and don't throw anyone else off. Now in a different session, you might find that substituting harmonically related passages is more the thing, but that's not the only way to do things.
It didn't seem like at the sessions we visited that you could have more than one fiddle. Unless the others were very quiet and didn't do much, which is what we saw.
No variations is not the music. Though how much you vary is dependent on the company of other players. (bearing in mind, of course, that the so called ornamentation, rolls and stuff, is part of the tune anyway). Is the variation sympathetic? Can the other players move with you? Can you move with them?
It can take quite while to build up this kind of empathy with your mates, probably more than half a year.
I'm talking about rather wild variation. Like what these really good musicians do, and Matt Molloy was only one name I could think of right off the bat, on CDs that have their name on it. Not like a few rolls and cuts here and there. More like what the professionals do on their albums.
"These sessions were advertised as featuring a particular musician. One of them was amplified and the other was not."
~~~
This isn't a session -- it's clearly a performance. So the premise of this thread doesn't really match your example.
Regarding variations: you can't get too carried away with variations in a session if you want to play other melody players. If you're playing solo and 'hotdogging' for a performance or recording, that's a different story.
My take is this; First play the tune , plain and simple, then as you get better start to add your ornaments, after years of this you will find parts of the tune lend them, selves to melodic variation. After more years you may be able to vary a tune dramatically, yet without doubt still playing the tune, just not as -us mortals might do it.
A good performer, playing solo-the best way of rendering this music- will play a tune over three, four or more times, introducing as he proceeds fresh forms of ornamentation,melodic and rhythmic variations. It will be noticed that the first bout in such a performance is the least embellished. One is accordingly provided a measure or line, the deviation from which by way of embellishment add point and flavour to the music. The implicit contrast is lost when a tune is started in a highly ornate manner and the enjoyment of the listener thereby diminished.
Let me start fresh. I only saw Michael's 2nd post.
Had I seen the 1st i would not have swallowed such obvious bait. sbhikes I think your thread brings up an old debate.
I only hope the responses tend to be more for the sake of good sessioning & less for reasons of ego.
I am not qualified to discuss the validity of any session.
I do sense that it is impossible to maintain a pure vision of anything traditional. By its' very nature tradition is always becoming something. One person's take on a session depends on when, where, what, & with whom.
I keep posting this link & have yet to get a single response.
It is an interview with Jerry Holland where he is asked to compare Irish style sessions & Cape Breton.
Here is one bit:
By learning in those two different ways do you think the end result is much the same?
I think there are different strengths. There's a strength in being a total individual as far as character in playing,
say in Cape Breton, where there are no two players who play exactly the same unless they study someone's music, as we spoke of already.
With the Irish-type sessions, it could be a confusing thing for the learner to hear multiple variations of tunes, or it could be a wonderful thing
where they'd have the opportunity to hear better players than themselves, somebody to learn from, and so on. And somebody to play with.
There's something to be said for playing with a group as well…there isn't a shyness factor, because you've got somebody to back you
if you happen to screw up a note here or there, or that kind of thing. [In the Cape Breton session], there's a nerve factor there, possibly, for some.
And then there are others, that are real close to me, that don't have a fear of much of anything!
Jerry Jr.… he'd play "Miss McLeod's Reel" all night long for the pope if the pope would listen!
But seriously though, it would be tough for the average Caper to make his first performance out there, after studying at home.
But I think in the same vein, they'd be looking to show their accomplishment, and there may be a certain pride there that may help get over the fear of performing.
I play a lot of variation, because my friends and I are inclined to play single tunes over and over, and coming from a Clare-Kerry sort of background we use "well-developed melodic variation" (o'Riada, you political lyricist, you) quite a bit. With more than two melody players it can get dodgy, but you can feel things out really well and play it all out so long as you have an intimate dynamic. Never the same twice!
There are variations that work in the session and variations that don't. Many of the types of variations that a soloist would play on a solo album would clash in a session.
A friend put together a neat bootleg CD of Paddy Keenan playing in a session. He also included clips of Paddy playing the same tunes on his various commerical solo recordings. His playing is completely different on the two. In the session environment he plays the tunes straightforwardly and cleanly without any flashy stuff. His solo performances are marvels of clever variation. His "basic" versions of the tunes are different in each case as well- in the session he's playing the session version, on his solo CD's he's playing quite different versions.
In a session I play a lot of variations- I can't play most tunes the same way over and over, I'd forget what I'd done earlier anyway. But my variations blend with the other players.
My variations tend to blend with the standard version rather than straying to far because I don't want to clash with other players. Sometimes I'll play a passage as a variation that was composed but is left out of the common settings. For example: on Maudabawn Chapel, Reavy has a different way to play the second half of the A part on the second pass, but most people play just one or the other. There are a few tunes like this that I do the same thing with. Also, I will sometimes play a different setting I've learned as a variation, but sometimes these clash too much with standard versions and I don't try it if I'm playing with other melody players. Sometimes I'll get daring and improvise variations on the spot, but my success isn't guaranteed.
Too much variation ruins a tune.
And then it is never a session item then, but becomes a performance. I tried to play along recently with someone who varied nearly every phrase. In the end I almost gave up as it was all unplayable-to. In those circumstances it's just the player satisfying his own ego. The tune should always be king and we just the vehicles for its transmission. The vehicle may be allowed to run a circuitous route, but must stay on the map.
By contrast, have a look at the beautifully presented tunes Kane O'Rourke plays here, giving some variation but keeping well within the bounds of the tunes being easily recognisable. He gets it just right - not too much, but enough to let you know its coming from him: http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x3yqv1_kane-orourke-finest-irish-fiddle-pl_music
The very essence of playing with other people is that you can interact, bounce things of eachother while playing, if you have to stick 'the same thing over all the time' it would be dead, boring and not worth the effort.
Variation in a group setting is balance of going 'out there' but not too far! responding to the others by listening so intently that a kind of group mind is in action, the better you know each other the better you can predict what may happen, Perhaps a bit like a chess match, looking ahead so that when something happens you are ready.
Where I go it's the same tune 3 times round, then the next tune. "Variation" comes in with different people perhaps playing slightly different versions at the same time as each other and doubtless players do vary their own ornamentation as and when they please. As long as it all fits together which it usually does, everyone is happy.
Arguably another form of "variation" is the tunes are played as they turn out on the night. Some of us would start the same tune off quite differently for example, who's present can make a difference, maybe the sort of "mood" of the session, etc. I rarely find things the same but living and changing instead.
Personally, I don't think I would like variations that stray a fair bit from the basic tune. I think we'd all then wind up learning our set pieces and we'd wind up with less of the "variation" I enjoy.
I think to some extent it depends on the instruments, their tones and timbre, so that each instrument is free to be itself and play what it likes yet not clash with the others. too many fiddles say ,playing different variation and setting can leads to a mess. This is one reason why i prefer smaller well balanced sessions.
Also. for example i play with a great box player, so when we play a tune together pften i will simplify my stuff to accentuate his variation, providing a solid melody as a basis for his flights of fancy.
Generally it's best if the degree of variation varies inversely with the number of players, don't you think?
Unless they're well familiar with each other, like michael and his mates.
It's not an either/or situation, just keep your ears open.
For sbhikes, she not only encountered variations in playing but also variations in session behaviour, which can only be a good thing
As for it being a performance, it clearly had performance qualities but it was not like going to a show. They sat in a corner at regular tables like other people. You could talk to them. It was clear they didn't know who would show up to play except for a core 3 people (a guitar player and a bodhran player who was fantastic as well). We really enjoyed it. I guess it was halfway between a regular session and a performance.
I'd tell you the name of the featured player but you guys are quite rude and would probably shred him to death and I wouldn't want to do that. But he was really good.
A session is musicians playing in a pub, could be amplified, usually not, could be a performance, and indeed will be if you are playing, but I don't really want to start all that again. (honest)
They all differ. Some are paid, some not, some have songs, some don't. There are no ten commandments led down, no matter what some people may say.
Agreed. Ours would be like that only we get paid, so I take a big whip to the others. In many ways I am kike the drummer on the Roman Galleys. BOOM, whip, lash, BOOM, lash, whip.........
tee hee, bliss. Me too, sometimes. At a beginner-friendly session, I once played a couple of jigs for my turn--very straight, and with a certain amount of determination, because there wasn't much support from the others. Somebody commented, "Well, you sure dragged us through those." (Which jigs? Kerfunken and Gallagher's Frolic. Like I said, beginner-friendly.)
sbhikes I asked for the musicians' name because I thought it might help the discussion.
The few who would attack him are odd. It is like somehow they don't get it. I absolutely respect your not wanting to cause him unnecessary grief. Having said that; for me it is important to say who I like to listen to. There are some great people on board. Many will not pin me to the wall unless I ask for it . . . or they think it humorous . . . or they are wacked . . . or they are stirring things up . . .
Just joking. We get 'em all here.
Cheers
Now I know what you mean---he does do a lot of variations that are way off the main tune. I love the way he plays, but only the more advanced musicians can join in at that level. They're still true sessions, though---anyone can join, they don't have a set list, there is no "audience", etc.
You understand then my question. I was curious if this kind of session was common. Not having been to any other but my own, I was curious if this was the way most or many sessions are done. Because if it is, it would certainly explain a lot.
I have read here of sessions where maybe one guy is expected to be there every time and maybe even gets paid. Some say they don't like big sessions with lots of [fill in the blank any liked instrument] and prefer the tighter sound of a smaller group. And there is no doubt in my mind that someone of my poor ability would not be welcome in a session like the one I observed (nor would I ever fancy a notion to pull out my instrument and give it a go). If that session is a representation of the sessions you all here attend, it would explain some of the incredulity that people have expressed to me about my own welcomed participation at my own session. My session is completely different.
¬you guys are quite rude¬
....maybe some of us are, others just forthright. I'm probably in there somewhere. But to label the vast majority of polite genteel artistic members here as rude is......well, rude, to honest.
Let's just say that the sport of choice around here is to bash other people with relish. Bash me if you must, but I'm certainly not going to provide an opportunity to bash someone else.
sbhikes, a session is whatever the people who started it want it to be. If they want it to be a show or performance where one person is miked and they play highly choreographed tunes... great... it's their session they can do what they want. To answer your question: no, that's not what our local session is like. If I encountered the session you describe I would be more likely to just enjoy listening. I prefer sessions that aren't miked and where the emphasis is on celebrating the music together.
I've just come back from a festival where I was given free entry in exchange for 'leading' the sessions in the Guinness Bar. We got every level from virtuosos to absolute beginners, which suited me down to the ground because I really enjoy variety in a session.
When more accomplished players were in the group I held the steady background tune that PB describes, letting them play variations while having a firm basis. When less confident players were playing the steady stuff I got a chance to show off a bit. We had some beautiful harmonisation, especially on whistles and flutes.
We also had a couple of extremely fine instrumentatlists who unfortunately had no idea how to play 'with' other people rather than 'for' them. Luckily they tended not to stay long, and let the rest of us mere mortals get on with it once they left.
I have absolutely no objection to high level players playing high level music, but I really wouldn't class it as a session. Unless it was advertised as a session for high level players.
Having said that, in my bumbling early days I sat in on a few sessions with well known players without realising how much higher the standard was. Every time I was welcomed in and treated with respect, even though I was clearly an absolute beginner. In fact one time I was hiding at the back and stowing my box under the seat when the session leader spotted it and insisted I come and sit in the circle and start a couple of sets (at the time that was a pretty big ask for me).
You might have found that the 'named' player did the same - not everyone has forgotten where they came from, or how they got there. Some of them still do it for the sheer love of the music.
Ah yes, to the original (sincere, and politely worded) question, which really did not deserve some of the (all too common) snide comments:
No, none of the sessions in my area use amplification for any of the players, and the amount of variation within the basic tune depends on how advanced the players are.
You are not alone in wondering about amplification at sessions. The co-owner of a new coffeeshop in my area wanted an Irish session in his place (we were thrilled to oblige him, of course) because he had enjoyed many sessions during a recent extended tour of Ireland. So many of those "sessions" had a miked-up featured player or two that he thought it was the usual thing. I talked him out of it.
I am always trying to get our harpist to put the pickup on her harp. It is so nice to hear her play. If you are not close to her the other instruments tend to dominate.
"So many of those "sessions" had a miked-up featured player or two that he thought it was the usual thing. I talked him out of it."
~~~
I was in Ennis in the winter of 98 and had the pleasure of joining a session at Cruises where some of the fellas from Fisherstreet were in attendance -- great session BTW. At one point Seamus McMahon turned and asked me why I was there during winter. I asked him what it was like in the summer and he replied, "Well, for one thing, we wouldn't be playing in here, we'd by miked up in the other room back there and there would be bus loads of German tourists coming through the door. Oh... I see why you come in the winter now." I nodded.
sbhikes, I've seen the fiddler you're talking about at four different sessions where I live (including my own), and he plays differently at all of them. At the ones he runs, they tend to be very high-level and only the best musicians can keep up. If he's the only fiddler playing, he can really let loose with the variations. I've also seen him playing backup for singers and he's amazingly inventive and tasteful with accompaniment. But he can also tone it down if there are people around him who can't keep that pace. My impression is that his playing is not an ego-based thing, it's because that's the way he likes to play.
Now about your question---I think I know the session you saw, and the answer is no, they're not all like that. But I'm in a big city with dozens of sessions and there are lots to choose from---miked, acoustic, beginner, advanced, paid, unpaid, and everything in between. So there is room for sessions where the playing is professional level.
The thing is, though, I know some of the people at the better sessions, and whenever they see me they always ask if I've brought my fiddle. They've told me that the best way to get better is to play with players who are better than you are. It will be a while before I feel ready to try it, but when I am, I'm fairly sure that they will be quite happy to let me start a few tunes with them and play along with whatever I know. So right now I'm just trying to improve my skill and learn enough tunes that I can keep up when I get there.
So I would say keep going to the session you already attend (which sounds like an intermediate-level session), but also try to go to the higher level ones to give you some inspiration and set a challenge for yourself. Because eventually you're going to want to play with those people too, and you want to be ready for it when you do. Good luck, anyway!
Enjoying a session is much like enjoying game of chess or a game of tennis. (I usually eschew sporting analogies with music because of the competative aspect. This ananlogy hase nothing to do with competition)
If who you are playing with is streets ahead of you or way beneath you, it's boring for both parties. However, if someone is not too far better than you, it should raise your game. And if if they are not too far beneath you, it's good to be able to raise their game.
This got me thinking about the topic of "the session existing for the musicians" vs "the session functioning as entertainment".
The two don't have to be mutually exclusive. The session I attend, though the musicians sit in a circle (so that half have their backs towards the public), just play whatever they want (which is often rather esoteric), and is unamplified, some of us do try to modify the session a bit so that it is more entertaining for the public by having singers sing songs and/or playing slower instrumental pieces from time to time.
Both the sessions we visited were different. The first one was quite low-key and there was no amplification. And it was in the coziest little pub in Greenwhich Village where all the patrons were cool 20-somethings. Same fiddler, just as awesome.
Anyway we only have one session in my town. The earlier you get there the more likely you are to play if you are a beginner. After certain people arrive, the tempo and the skill level goes through the roof.
The other "session" in town is really a band and you have to be a member of the band. It's not very Irish, either, as they promote themselves as a blend of classical and Irish traditional. In other words, classical fiddlers and flutes with guitar (who seemed to me like he'd rather be playing Jimmy Buffet), playing with music stands and sheet music. I don't even bother listening to those guys.
Being from a small city with limited options it was fun to visit the Big City and see what they had. It was hard to find a session from all the variety because we feared it would be "celtic" music or something. We were very pleasantly surprised to hear such wonderful Irish music so well done. I think we selected the ones we did because they were advertised "100% Enya Free."
Sbhikes. learn to play a slow air well. With spirit and feeling, technically well. play that at a session when there is a pause. you will be welcome at most any session. All we are asking for is a nice performance of some beautiful music. Fast reels are actually not the easiest form of music to play
I think we searched the web for sessions in New York and that's how we found him. I didn't do the search though. It might have been a different one that said 100% Enya-free. We really needed it to be relatively close to where we were staying and totally lucked out..
If you want beautiful music you might ask me in another year or so. I'm really not very good at all and would never presume to play at a session of the quality we observed. I play the flute and I still can't get good tone all the time, especially on certain notes.
The session in my town is welcoming to folks like me who want to learn because they want to pass it on. I'm grateful for that.
It's not in the spirit of "look at me", it's to make the session, from time to time (and often not at all on a given day) more entertaining to the public. People then tell the owner how much they enjoy hearing the music, and the owner decides that he will continue to provide a venue for the session.
If a session has no entertainment value the owner will kick us out and turn up the radio. The radio doesn't have a bar tab.
Sbhikes, you know my advice by now. Learn your tunes on the whistle, concentrate on your tone with the flute. How many Irish fluters started on the whistle? or should i say how many didnt.? Leave the ornaments out till you have the tune with clear precise rhythm.
The problem at our local session is not enough dancing room, too many people cram'd in enjoying the music.
Variation of the tunes and sessions
Variation of the tunes and sessions
My boyfriend and I are relatively new to the music and to sessions. We've been going to a local session for about half a year now. Recently we visited a couple of sessions in another city. These sessions were advertised as featuring a particular musician. One of them was amplified and the other was not. The featured musician was really good.
Anyway, we got to talking later and my boyfriend said to me the music was really good but it wasn't really a "session", was it? Having only been to ours I don't really know how to answer.
I think what he meant was that the featured musician played with the tunes like somebody like Matt Molloy is capable of playing with the tunes. You know, you recognize the tune but he's playing all kinds of variations and some are really amazing and you are wowed by his brilliance.
At our session we all play the melody (except for the backers). The really good musicians also just play the basic melody but they're just way better at it. They don't try to wow anybody with brilliant variations. I'm sure they could if they wanted to though.
We pretty much decided that what we saw was more like a performance but with some other musicians who join in in the background. So are your sessions like one or the other? How much variation-making is going on?
# Posted on January 6th 2008 by sbhikes
Re: Variation of the tunes and sessions
Speaking of Matt Molloy you might want to check out this recording;
http://www.thesession.org/recordings/display/52
# Posted on January 6th 2008 by Random_notes
Re: Variation of the tunes and sessions
Your sesion doesn't sound like much of a session either, more a stuck record
# Posted on January 6th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Variation of the tunes and sessions
I don't know that I can agree with you on that one, Michael - there's a lot you can do with a tune and still be playing "just the tune, no variations". Timing, phrasing, ornamentation - lots of things that still keep the same basic tune and don't throw anyone else off. Now in a different session, you might find that substituting harmonically related passages is more the thing, but that's not the only way to do things.
# Posted on January 6th 2008 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Variation of the tunes and sessions
Did you really have to be insulting?
It didn't seem like at the sessions we visited that you could have more than one fiddle. Unless the others were very quiet and didn't do much, which is what we saw.
# Posted on January 6th 2008 by sbhikes
Re: Variation of the tunes and sessions
No variations is not the music. Though how much you vary is dependent on the company of other players. (bearing in mind, of course, that the so called ornamentation, rolls and stuff, is part of the tune anyway). Is the variation sympathetic? Can the other players move with you? Can you move with them?
It can take quite while to build up this kind of empathy with your mates, probably more than half a year.
# Posted on January 6th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Variation of the tunes and sessions
I'm talking about rather wild variation. Like what these really good musicians do, and Matt Molloy was only one name I could think of right off the bat, on CDs that have their name on it. Not like a few rolls and cuts here and there. More like what the professionals do on their albums.
# Posted on January 6th 2008 by sbhikes
Re: Variation of the tunes and sessions
"These sessions were advertised as featuring a particular musician. One of them was amplified and the other was not."
~~~
This isn't a session -- it's clearly a performance. So the premise of this thread doesn't really match your example.
Regarding variations: you can't get too carried away with variations in a session if you want to play other melody players. If you're playing solo and 'hotdogging' for a performance or recording, that's a different story.
# Posted on January 6th 2008 by Phantom Button
Re: Variation of the tunes and sessions
My take is this; First play the tune , plain and simple, then as you get better start to add your ornaments, after years of this you will find parts of the tune lend them, selves to melodic variation. After more years you may be able to vary a tune dramatically, yet without doubt still playing the tune, just not as -us mortals might do it.
A good performer, playing solo-the best way of rendering this music- will play a tune over three, four or more times, introducing as he proceeds fresh forms of ornamentation,melodic and rhythmic variations. It will be noticed that the first bout in such a performance is the least embellished. One is accordingly provided a measure or line, the deviation from which by way of embellishment add point and flavour to the music. The implicit contrast is lost when a tune is started in a highly ornate manner and the enjoyment of the listener thereby diminished.
# Posted on January 6th 2008 by jig
Re: Variation of the tunes and sessions
Mr. Gill are you a cynic or fundamentally a literalist?
# Posted on January 6th 2008 by Random_notes
Re: Variation of the tunes and sessions
Let me start fresh. I only saw Michael's 2nd post.
Had I seen the 1st i would not have swallowed such obvious bait. sbhikes I think your thread brings up an old debate.
I only hope the responses tend to be more for the sake of good sessioning & less for reasons of ego.
# Posted on January 6th 2008 by Random_notes
Any possibility you might tell us the name of the "particular musician"?
# Posted on January 6th 2008 by Random_notes
I am not qualified to discuss the validity of any session.
I do sense that it is impossible to maintain a pure vision of anything traditional. By its' very nature tradition is always becoming something. One person's take on a session depends on when, where, what, & with whom.
I keep posting this link & have yet to get a single response.
http://www.jerryholland.com/frame-press.htm#Interview
It is an interview with Jerry Holland where he is asked to compare Irish style sessions & Cape Breton.
Here is one bit:
By learning in those two different ways do you think the end result is much the same?
I think there are different strengths. There's a strength in being a total individual as far as character in playing,
say in Cape Breton, where there are no two players who play exactly the same unless they study someone's music, as we spoke of already.
With the Irish-type sessions, it could be a confusing thing for the learner to hear multiple variations of tunes, or it could be a wonderful thing
where they'd have the opportunity to hear better players than themselves, somebody to learn from, and so on. And somebody to play with.
There's something to be said for playing with a group as well…there isn't a shyness factor, because you've got somebody to back you
if you happen to screw up a note here or there, or that kind of thing. [In the Cape Breton session], there's a nerve factor there, possibly, for some.
And then there are others, that are real close to me, that don't have a fear of much of anything!
Jerry Jr.… he'd play "Miss McLeod's Reel" all night long for the pope if the pope would listen!
But seriously though, it would be tough for the average Caper to make his first performance out there, after studying at home.
But I think in the same vein, they'd be looking to show their accomplishment, and there may be a certain pride there that may help get over the fear of performing.
# Posted on January 6th 2008 by Random_notes
Re: Variation of the tunes and sessions
"probably more than half a year" ....
that's about the most funny comment I've seen here. Ever.
Perfect.
# Posted on January 6th 2008 by pavlf
Re: Variation of the tunes and sessions
Great interview muse, thanks for posting the link.
# Posted on January 6th 2008 by jig
Re: Variation of the tunes and sessions
I play a lot of variation, because my friends and I are inclined to play single tunes over and over, and coming from a Clare-Kerry sort of background we use "well-developed melodic variation" (o'Riada, you political lyricist, you) quite a bit. With more than two melody players it can get dodgy, but you can feel things out really well and play it all out so long as you have an intimate dynamic. Never the same twice!
--DtM
# Posted on January 6th 2008 by Dan the Man
Re: Variation of the tunes and sessions
There are variations that work in the session and variations that don't. Many of the types of variations that a soloist would play on a solo album would clash in a session.
A friend put together a neat bootleg CD of Paddy Keenan playing in a session. He also included clips of Paddy playing the same tunes on his various commerical solo recordings. His playing is completely different on the two. In the session environment he plays the tunes straightforwardly and cleanly without any flashy stuff. His solo performances are marvels of clever variation. His "basic" versions of the tunes are different in each case as well- in the session he's playing the session version, on his solo CD's he's playing quite different versions.
In a session I play a lot of variations- I can't play most tunes the same way over and over, I'd forget what I'd done earlier anyway. But my variations blend with the other players.
# Posted on January 6th 2008 by Richard D Cook
Re: Variation of the tunes and sessions
My variations tend to blend with the standard version rather than straying to far because I don't want to clash with other players. Sometimes I'll play a passage as a variation that was composed but is left out of the common settings. For example: on Maudabawn Chapel, Reavy has a different way to play the second half of the A part on the second pass, but most people play just one or the other. There are a few tunes like this that I do the same thing with. Also, I will sometimes play a different setting I've learned as a variation, but sometimes these clash too much with standard versions and I don't try it if I'm playing with other melody players. Sometimes I'll get daring and improvise variations on the spot, but my success isn't guaranteed.
# Posted on January 6th 2008 by Phantom Button
Re: Variation of the tunes and sessions
Too much variation ruins a tune.
And then it is never a session item then, but becomes a performance. I tried to play along recently with someone who varied nearly every phrase. In the end I almost gave up as it was all unplayable-to. In those circumstances it's just the player satisfying his own ego. The tune should always be king and we just the vehicles for its transmission. The vehicle may be allowed to run a circuitous route, but must stay on the map.
By contrast, have a look at the beautifully presented tunes Kane O'Rourke plays here, giving some variation but keeping well within the bounds of the tunes being easily recognisable. He gets it just right - not too much, but enough to let you know its coming from him:
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x3yqv1_kane-orourke-finest-irish-fiddle-pl_music
# Posted on January 6th 2008 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: Variation of the tunes and sessions
The very essence of playing with other people is that you can interact, bounce things of eachother while playing, if you have to stick 'the same thing over all the time' it would be dead, boring and not worth the effort.
# Posted on January 6th 2008 by kilfarboy
Re: Variation of the tunes and sessions
Variation in a group setting is balance of going 'out there' but not too far! responding to the others by listening so intently that a kind of group mind is in action, the better you know each other the better you can predict what may happen, Perhaps a bit like a chess match, looking ahead so that when something happens you are ready.
# Posted on January 6th 2008 by jig
Re: Variation of the tunes and sessions
Where I go it's the same tune 3 times round, then the next tune. "Variation" comes in with different people perhaps playing slightly different versions at the same time as each other and doubtless players do vary their own ornamentation as and when they please. As long as it all fits together which it usually does, everyone is happy.
Arguably another form of "variation" is the tunes are played as they turn out on the night. Some of us would start the same tune off quite differently for example, who's present can make a difference, maybe the sort of "mood" of the session, etc. I rarely find things the same but living and changing instead.
Personally, I don't think I would like variations that stray a fair bit from the basic tune. I think we'd all then wind up learning our set pieces and we'd wind up with less of the "variation" I enjoy.
# Posted on January 6th 2008 by Jon Freeman
Re: Variation of the tunes and sessions
I think to some extent it depends on the instruments, their tones and timbre, so that each instrument is free to be itself and play what it likes yet not clash with the others. too many fiddles say ,playing different variation and setting can leads to a mess. This is one reason why i prefer smaller well balanced sessions.
# Posted on January 6th 2008 by jig
Re: Variation of the tunes and sessions
Also. for example i play with a great box player, so when we play a tune together pften i will simplify my stuff to accentuate his variation, providing a solid melody as a basis for his flights of fancy.
# Posted on January 6th 2008 by jig
Re: Variation of the tunes and sessions
Generally it's best if the degree of variation varies inversely with the number of players, don't you think?
Unless they're well familiar with each other, like michael and his mates.
It's not an either/or situation, just keep your ears open.
For sbhikes, she not only encountered variations in playing but also variations in session behaviour, which can only be a good thing
# Posted on January 6th 2008 by Bren
Re: Variation of the tunes and sessions
Absolutely.
# Posted on January 6th 2008 by jig
Re: Variation of the tunes and sessions
I guess the moral of the story is, different sessions- different expectations.
# Posted on January 6th 2008 by PatrickJWK
Re: Variation of the tunes and sessions
Ok. Thank you.
As for it being a performance, it clearly had performance qualities but it was not like going to a show. They sat in a corner at regular tables like other people. You could talk to them. It was clear they didn't know who would show up to play except for a core 3 people (a guitar player and a bodhran player who was fantastic as well). We really enjoyed it. I guess it was halfway between a regular session and a performance.
I'd tell you the name of the featured player but you guys are quite rude and would probably shred him to death and I wouldn't want to do that. But he was really good.
# Posted on January 6th 2008 by sbhikes
Re: Variation of the tunes and sessions
A session is musicians playing in a pub, could be amplified, usually not, could be a performance, and indeed will be if you are playing, but I don't really want to start all that again. (honest)
They all differ. Some are paid, some not, some have songs, some don't. There are no ten commandments led down, no matter what some people may say.
# Posted on January 6th 2008 by bodhran bliss
Re: Variation of the tunes and sessions
some just consist of musicians drinking, and not playing
# Posted on January 6th 2008 by Bren
Re: Variation of the tunes and sessions
Agreed. Ours would be like that only we get paid, so I take a big whip to the others. In many ways I am kike the drummer on the Roman Galleys. BOOM, whip, lash, BOOM, lash, whip.........
# Posted on January 6th 2008 by bodhran bliss
Re: Variation of the tunes and sessions
tee hee, bliss. Me too, sometimes. At a beginner-friendly session, I once played a couple of jigs for my turn--very straight, and with a certain amount of determination, because there wasn't much support from the others. Somebody commented, "Well, you sure dragged us through those." (Which jigs? Kerfunken and Gallagher's Frolic. Like I said, beginner-friendly.)
# Posted on January 6th 2008 by mickray
Variations
sbhikes I asked for the musicians' name because I thought it might help the discussion.
The few who would attack him are odd. It is like somehow they don't get it. I absolutely respect your not wanting to cause him unnecessary grief. Having said that; for me it is important to say who I like to listen to. There are some great people on board. Many will not pin me to the wall unless I ask for it . . . or they think it humorous . . . or they are wacked . . . or they are stirring things up . . .
Just joking. We get 'em all here.
Cheers
# Posted on January 6th 2008 by Random_notes
Re: Variation of the tunes and sessions
Bliss - 'kike the drummer'?
And I thought Chaim Hertzog was Belfast's most famous alrightnik!
# Posted on January 6th 2008 by Floss the Tethers
Re: Variation of the tunes and sessions
"I'd tell you the name of the featured player but you guys are quite rude"
Mmm... she's got a point. There is a bit of a lot of what you might call, if you wanted to be polite about it, "directness" that goes on here...
# Posted on January 6th 2008 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Variation of the tunes and sessions
Looks like the fiddler I saw has been promoted here once before. http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/9841
He was amazing. Brilliant. I enjoyed it greatly.
# Posted on January 7th 2008 by sbhikes
Re: Variation of the tunes and sessions
Now I know what you mean---he does do a lot of variations that are way off the main tune. I love the way he plays, but only the more advanced musicians can join in at that level. They're still true sessions, though---anyone can join, they don't have a set list, there is no "audience", etc.
# Posted on January 7th 2008 by kennedy
Re: Variation of the tunes and sessions
Kennedy,
You understand then my question. I was curious if this kind of session was common. Not having been to any other but my own, I was curious if this was the way most or many sessions are done. Because if it is, it would certainly explain a lot.
I have read here of sessions where maybe one guy is expected to be there every time and maybe even gets paid. Some say they don't like big sessions with lots of [fill in the blank any liked instrument] and prefer the tighter sound of a smaller group. And there is no doubt in my mind that someone of my poor ability would not be welcome in a session like the one I observed (nor would I ever fancy a notion to pull out my instrument and give it a go). If that session is a representation of the sessions you all here attend, it would explain some of the incredulity that people have expressed to me about my own welcomed participation at my own session. My session is completely different.
# Posted on January 7th 2008 by sbhikes
Re: Variation of the tunes and sessions
" Sometimes I'll get daring and improvise variations on the spot, but my success isn't guaranteed."
Noodling you mean ?
# Posted on January 7th 2008 by BegF
Re: Variation of the tunes and sessions
¬you guys are quite rude¬
....maybe some of us are, others just forthright. I'm probably in there somewhere. But to label the vast majority of polite genteel artistic members here as rude is......well, rude, to honest.
# Posted on January 7th 2008 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: Variation of the tunes and sessions
Hahaha... yes... noodles.
# Posted on January 7th 2008 by Phantom Button
Re: Variation of the tunes and sessions
Let's just say that the sport of choice around here is to bash other people with relish. Bash me if you must, but I'm certainly not going to provide an opportunity to bash someone else.
# Posted on January 7th 2008 by sbhikes
Re: Variation of the tunes and sessions
sbhikes, a session is whatever the people who started it want it to be. If they want it to be a show or performance where one person is miked and they play highly choreographed tunes... great... it's their session they can do what they want. To answer your question: no, that's not what our local session is like. If I encountered the session you describe I would be more likely to just enjoy listening. I prefer sessions that aren't miked and where the emphasis is on celebrating the music together.
# Posted on January 7th 2008 by Phantom Button
Re: Variation of the tunes and sessions
No need to bash you - you did it all by yourself. I just pointed it out.
# Posted on January 7th 2008 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: Variation of the tunes and sessions
I've just come back from a festival where I was given free entry in exchange for 'leading' the sessions in the Guinness Bar. We got every level from virtuosos to absolute beginners, which suited me down to the ground because I really enjoy variety in a session.
When more accomplished players were in the group I held the steady background tune that PB describes, letting them play variations while having a firm basis. When less confident players were playing the steady stuff I got a chance to show off a bit. We had some beautiful harmonisation, especially on whistles and flutes.
We also had a couple of extremely fine instrumentatlists who unfortunately had no idea how to play 'with' other people rather than 'for' them. Luckily they tended not to stay long, and let the rest of us mere mortals get on with it once they left.
I have absolutely no objection to high level players playing high level music, but I really wouldn't class it as a session. Unless it was advertised as a session for high level players.
Having said that, in my bumbling early days I sat in on a few sessions with well known players without realising how much higher the standard was. Every time I was welcomed in and treated with respect, even though I was clearly an absolute beginner. In fact one time I was hiding at the back and stowing my box under the seat when the session leader spotted it and insisted I come and sit in the circle and start a couple of sets (at the time that was a pretty big ask for me).
You might have found that the 'named' player did the same - not everyone has forgotten where they came from, or how they got there. Some of them still do it for the sheer love of the music.
# Posted on January 7th 2008 by bc_box_player
Re: Variation of the tunes and sessions
Ah yes, to the original (sincere, and politely worded) question, which really did not deserve some of the (all too common) snide comments:
No, none of the sessions in my area use amplification for any of the players, and the amount of variation within the basic tune depends on how advanced the players are.
You are not alone in wondering about amplification at sessions. The co-owner of a new coffeeshop in my area wanted an Irish session in his place (we were thrilled to oblige him, of course) because he had enjoyed many sessions during a recent extended tour of Ireland. So many of those "sessions" had a miked-up featured player or two that he thought it was the usual thing. I talked him out of it.
# Posted on January 7th 2008 by mickray
Re: Variation of the tunes and sessions
I am always trying to get our harpist to put the pickup on her harp. It is so nice to hear her play. If you are not close to her the other instruments tend to dominate.
# Posted on January 7th 2008 by Random_notes
Re: Variation of the tunes and sessions
"So many of those "sessions" had a miked-up featured player or two that he thought it was the usual thing. I talked him out of it."
~~~
I was in Ennis in the winter of 98 and had the pleasure of joining a session at Cruises where some of the fellas from Fisherstreet were in attendance -- great session BTW. At one point Seamus McMahon turned and asked me why I was there during winter. I asked him what it was like in the summer and he replied, "Well, for one thing, we wouldn't be playing in here, we'd by miked up in the other room back there and there would be bus loads of German tourists coming through the door. Oh... I see why you come in the winter now." I nodded.
# Posted on January 7th 2008 by Phantom Button
Re: Variation of the tunes and sessions
sbhikes, I've seen the fiddler you're talking about at four different sessions where I live (including my own), and he plays differently at all of them. At the ones he runs, they tend to be very high-level and only the best musicians can keep up. If he's the only fiddler playing, he can really let loose with the variations. I've also seen him playing backup for singers and he's amazingly inventive and tasteful with accompaniment. But he can also tone it down if there are people around him who can't keep that pace. My impression is that his playing is not an ego-based thing, it's because that's the way he likes to play.
Now about your question---I think I know the session you saw, and the answer is no, they're not all like that. But I'm in a big city with dozens of sessions and there are lots to choose from---miked, acoustic, beginner, advanced, paid, unpaid, and everything in between. So there is room for sessions where the playing is professional level.
The thing is, though, I know some of the people at the better sessions, and whenever they see me they always ask if I've brought my fiddle. They've told me that the best way to get better is to play with players who are better than you are. It will be a while before I feel ready to try it, but when I am, I'm fairly sure that they will be quite happy to let me start a few tunes with them and play along with whatever I know. So right now I'm just trying to improve my skill and learn enough tunes that I can keep up when I get there.
So I would say keep going to the session you already attend (which sounds like an intermediate-level session), but also try to go to the higher level ones to give you some inspiration and set a challenge for yourself. Because eventually you're going to want to play with those people too, and you want to be ready for it when you do. Good luck, anyway!
# Posted on January 7th 2008 by kennedy
Re: Variation of the tunes and sessions
Bliss
If that is the case then your rhythm is out, surely the places of the whips and the lashes should be consistent??
I always knew you couldn't keep time!
# Posted on January 7th 2008 by jfiddlerh
Re: Variation of the tunes and sessions
Enjoying a session is much like enjoying game of chess or a game of tennis. (I usually eschew sporting analogies with music because of the competative aspect. This ananlogy hase nothing to do with competition)
If who you are playing with is streets ahead of you or way beneath you, it's boring for both parties. However, if someone is not too far better than you, it should raise your game. And if if they are not too far beneath you, it's good to be able to raise their game.
# Posted on January 7th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Variation of the tunes and sessions
This got me thinking about the topic of "the session existing for the musicians" vs "the session functioning as entertainment".
The two don't have to be mutually exclusive. The session I attend, though the musicians sit in a circle (so that half have their backs towards the public), just play whatever they want (which is often rather esoteric), and is unamplified, some of us do try to modify the session a bit so that it is more entertaining for the public by having singers sing songs and/or playing slower instrumental pieces from time to time.
# Posted on January 7th 2008 by Richard D Cook
Re: Variation of the tunes and sessions
Don't you dare come to where I play with your "Look at me" modifications attempts.
# Posted on January 7th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Variation of the tunes and sessions
Both the sessions we visited were different. The first one was quite low-key and there was no amplification. And it was in the coziest little pub in Greenwhich Village where all the patrons were cool 20-somethings. Same fiddler, just as awesome.
Anyway we only have one session in my town. The earlier you get there the more likely you are to play if you are a beginner. After certain people arrive, the tempo and the skill level goes through the roof.
The other "session" in town is really a band and you have to be a member of the band. It's not very Irish, either, as they promote themselves as a blend of classical and Irish traditional. In other words, classical fiddlers and flutes with guitar (who seemed to me like he'd rather be playing Jimmy Buffet), playing with music stands and sheet music. I don't even bother listening to those guys.
Being from a small city with limited options it was fun to visit the Big City and see what they had. It was hard to find a session from all the variety because we feared it would be "celtic" music or something. We were very pleasantly surprised to hear such wonderful Irish music so well done. I think we selected the ones we did because they were advertised "100% Enya Free."
# Posted on January 7th 2008 by sbhikes
Re: Variation of the tunes and sessions
Where did you find this advertisement, by the way? Was it on a website?
# Posted on January 7th 2008 by kennedy
Re: Variation of the tunes and sessions
Sbhikes. learn to play a slow air well. With spirit and feeling, technically well. play that at a session when there is a pause. you will be welcome at most any session. All we are asking for is a nice performance of some beautiful music. Fast reels are actually not the easiest form of music to play
# Posted on January 7th 2008 by jig
Re: Variation of the tunes and sessions
I think we searched the web for sessions in New York and that's how we found him. I didn't do the search though. It might have been a different one that said 100% Enya-free. We really needed it to be relatively close to where we were staying and totally lucked out..
If you want beautiful music you might ask me in another year or so. I'm really not very good at all and would never presume to play at a session of the quality we observed. I play the flute and I still can't get good tone all the time, especially on certain notes.
The session in my town is welcoming to folks like me who want to learn because they want to pass it on. I'm grateful for that.
# Posted on January 7th 2008 by sbhikes
Re: Variation of the tunes and sessions
It's not in the spirit of "look at me", it's to make the session, from time to time (and often not at all on a given day) more entertaining to the public. People then tell the owner how much they enjoy hearing the music, and the owner decides that he will continue to provide a venue for the session.
If a session has no entertainment value the owner will kick us out and turn up the radio. The radio doesn't have a bar tab.
# Posted on January 8th 2008 by Richard D Cook
Re: Variation of the tunes and sessions
That makes me sad
# Posted on January 8th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Variation of the tunes and sessions
Sbhikes, you know my advice by now.
Learn your tunes on the whistle, concentrate on your tone with the flute. How many Irish fluters started on the whistle? or should i say how many didnt.? Leave the ornaments out till you have the tune with clear precise rhythm.
The problem at our local session is not enough dancing room, too many people cram'd in enjoying the music.
# Posted on January 8th 2008 by jig
Re: Variation of the tunes and sessions
Richard, what if he didn't kick you out, but cancelled the bar tab? Would you still turn up?
# Posted on January 14th 2008 by Bren