I have recently become very intersted in Irish music and I am looking to developing my guitar playing. At the moment I have played along with a friend on fiddle and he has given me a few great tips to get me started but looking for the best ways now to get my style developed and sounding a bit better than the same few chords over and over again - and not always in the right places!
I have just purchased the Frank Kilkelly book as a starting point but does anyone have any suggestions about best way forward? I do have a guitar teacher at the moment but he doesn't do Irish guitar. I'm in the Manchester area if anyone knows of anyne who can help?
Get the right chords in the right place. Listen to the tune!
The fiddlers fake book has good accurate chord settings. I recomend you order it today.
But to be honest the chords are simple, not varied much. Its the patterns that are complicated. If you want to play jazz chords, play jazz.
The expression is in the right hand, you can learn techniques etc but they are just tools for the artist, thats you, to express them selves. You have to put the excitement you feel into your expression of the music.
Listen to a good box player for chords. Try Jackie Daly.
A good box player will understand both aspects of the music.
Less is more, if in doubt play quieter or use silence to accent what you do play.
Add to the music, dont detract from it.
My favourite couple of session guitar accompanists I've come across us mostly use std, occasionally dropping a D or 2. Overall though, I've never come up with a this tuning is better than that one, just I like what this player does with his/her guitar best.
Re volume, sometimes I'm glad of a good guitarist playing louder. I find some nights it does really help keep things together and personally (melody on tenor/mandolin), I like having a reliable beat to keep in with.
Think tune, but I for one would need more than that.
I can play basic guitar chords to accompany myself singing I can play melody (although not on guitar) but I can't find the chords and touches that make the guitar work well accompanying them and full bars of full std tuned open G/D, etc. tend to sound horrible.
I think my own starting point if I wanted to learn would be to pick the brains of a local session player who's style appealed to me and see what leads come from that.
The thing is if the tune is a full bar of G arpeggio or such like that is what the guitar should play, we are there to support the melody and players, not display how many chords we know!. Substitution, i was taught is not trad in ITM.
The job is to make that G chord sound good using dynamics, strumming and/or picking patterns, inversions, walking bass lines perhaps, all the techniques we have.
It is quite likely in a G bar that the melody will hit a C say so the chords can too. But if that C is one note the chords have to change that fast too.The mistake people make is thinking that some how this form of music is easy, some apects are right enough, but some simply are not.
As an observer, what I've noticed at least with std tuning players (I'm not familiar with DADGAD) is that sometimes the chords look pretty much like the open chords I know but often with an extra note say played with little finger in and others with a finger "missing" and it' just seems to be subtle changes like that making the whole thing effective.
Of course some sometimes do things that look to me rather more complicated and I like bass runs,etc....
Thank you for all the comments and advice so far! It pretty much ties in with what I have thought about - and have started listening to as much music as possible as often as possible to learn as many tunes as possible. I have been trying with my playing as a couple of people have suggested to play the same chords in different inversions rather than trying to throw in a load of fancy different ones and this is something I definitely need to work at more! Main challenge I feel for me is to get the rhythms sounding right - have a habit at the minute of things ending up a bit swingy I have been told so need to drum that habit out very quickly! I think a lot of practice at the right hand is going to be the best first step for me and then once I have that sorted then worrying more about chords, inversions etc?
I have experimented a little with DADGAD tuning but found it quite difficult to get my head round that after playing around with the guitar for a number of years (but not really making any real progress till lately) and it seems like a bit of a foreign language to me at the minute. I've played around with drop D tuning a little too and quite liked the results of this so far so will see which style suits best once I get into things a little bit more!
I do recognise this isn't going to be a quick road to become anywhere near proficient in the music - or even to have the nerve to go to a session but reckon it'll be fun trying to get there anyhow!
Yes I have been listening to a fair bit of John Doyle's music and watching quite a bit - only on YouTube so far but have been very impressed with his techniques! Helps that he is left handed too so is like looking in a mirror!
Carl, how long have you been playng guitar? Do you have experience accompanying tunes an another style?
If you're very comfortable with standard tuning, I'd recommend staying with it until you have some facility with accompanying the tunes. Introducing DADGAD now will likely just get in the way.
Instead of thinking in terms of full chords, see what you can do with just two strings at a time. That'll make it easy to concentrate more on the rhythm and you'll probably learn some things that wouldn't occur to you if you're playing full chords.
Playing full, thick chords can be a grand thing, but it can also become tiresome to the listener and can bury some of the subtle beauty of the tune. But, if that's the style you're after, feel free to ignore my advice. I often do.
I was in the same situation than yours. I'm lazy so I play in DropD rather than learning DADGAD. Only one string to change the chord when you can play EADGBE. And I often play chords which "didn't" exist before I start to play ITM. I often let free strings sounding.
I listen to CD and try to play the same bass run whatever is the guitar player (DADGAD or etc...). It works most of the time.
Don't forget, the right hand is the most important for a right handed player, if not he takes it the other way!
good work
My experience is limited, but this is what have learned from playing guitar in sessions.
1 ) listen to the melody, the right chord will give the melody depth. Sometimes a phrase may repeat itself in the melody, but you can use an alternate set of chords to add interest, but listen to the melody.
2)Play with others - keep your ear on the other players, they know when you have perfected a riff and thy will change the key and the tune, just to keep you busy. All in good fun, I know that because they are always smiling.
3)there is no law requiring yo to use all 6 strings - you can vary the fabric of your playing by using 2, or 3 three strings, and often you can fit into a song better when you are quite.
4)know thy keys - if you listen, the melody will spell out the key and the chord changes, but you have to know the language.
5)Often I find that I catch new ideas and learn new approaches from watching other guitar player.
5)Listen.
''but you can use an alternate set of chords to add interest, but listen to the melody''
Well now, i would disagree with that, im sure many wouldnt, but there is no need to add harmonic 'interest' substitution is substitution. If its aG major riff it really needs a Gmajor chord. An Em wont do. sure people do it all the time, but.....
for the tune player it severely limits the melodic ornamentation, you are implying an extended chord.
I know what i say will likely be ignored but at least i try. as a tune player please, please dont substitute a relative minor for the correct major, its as good as tripping me up, distracting me. limiting me and down right annoying. there i have said it, take it as you will.
Here is a great resource i just saw today for aspiring chordists;
home.comcast.net/~saustin98/lark
courtesy of Steve Austin. thanks Steve.
learn the chord patterns from here. they will give you a head start in trying to accompany by ear. They look simple but its what you do with them that matters.
While respecting Jig’s view I do have to take issue with it. I’m a melody player – banjo, mandolin and guitar as well as, more recently enjoying accompanying tunes. (I took up the guitar again after a 20 year layoff!)
There are simply no orthodox chords allocated to Irish tunes so using what you are calling a ‘substitution’ or perhaps just a different inversion of a chord seems to me perfectly valid. No fiddle player would heed a call to strip ornamentation from his/her playing and using interesting chord sequences is akin to that. Lots of tunes repeat or nearly repeat sections and within sections so why not colour them differently a second time round?
I play sessions weekly in the Cheshire area: melody on banjo; leading tunes by starting melody on guitar and then switching to chords and backing. No one seems put off or limited by my approach, quite the reverse so maybe Jig has had a bad experience with accompanists.
For the record I would recommend John Doyle’s video and book as a really useful starter but learn to flatpick the tunes as well for your own satisfaction.
Inversions yes, of course, passing chords that relate strictly to the melody , great, but substituting a relative minor... no thanks. Traditionally, so i was taught, and i respect that, there is no substitution in trad.
Now fair enough, in the past 20 yrs it has become an acceptable thing. However I personally find it very off putting. This is because, within the melody are the chords and within the chords are the melody. Perhaps my approach is to some extent old fashioned but by no means would I suggest that it is the only way. Far from it, the new wave of trad is alive and kicking, incorporating numerous foreign influences. In its place I am all for it, it keeps the music moveing and interests new people. My heart is however clearly with the pure drop.
This concept that there are no orthodox chords, hmm it seems very strange to me, If the melody is a G major arpeggio, then anything but a Gmajor chord is to me clearly wrong. Bringing in an Em means we are directly clashing my D with your E. this is called discord as i am sure you know. Now while the modern ear is perhaps used to discord and distortion I maintain it has little if any place in trad.
I approach this from a different angle. I have been backing for 25 yrs and only playing the tunes seriously for 15 or so.
I view the guitar as the wave we as tune players surf upon, that wave should be steady and reliable otherwise it can all come crashing down. Our job as guitarists is to create that solid and lively rhythmic backing, not, in my opinion, a wishy washy half hearted wave not really going anywhere, but a strong clear well formed solid accurate true reflection of the melody. To actually play the melody within the chord pattern.
Rhythm guitarists who understand this music are rare and valuable. All it needs for a quality sound is a 2 piece; guitar and fiddle/banjo or whistle. this is an economically viable set up, and the core in a session. Any one who can do the job well enough is in.
Anyhow that is simply my opinion. and experiance.
I see your point: I'm probably not being clear enough. I'd be likely to substitute, say, and Em7 for a Gmaj but probably on a repeat of a section or a Cmaj7 for an Em but I think it's in cases where those notes are in the melody: there's no discord apparent and its more subtle than trying to substitute a straight Em for a G which wouldn't work as well.
And, of course I am one of your 'rare and valuable' guitarists!
Hi Carl,
since the guitar isn't even accepted yet as a folk instrument in Ireland, it can be an uphill task to find a direction in folk or trad guitar.
I am an Irish guitarist and I'd be willing to swap emails with ya for bits of advice and whatever. Let me know what stage you're at so far, and email to martinmurphymusic all one word at eircom dot net.
Good luck!
Martin
Learning tradtional guitar
Learning tradtional guitar
Hi all,
I have recently become very intersted in Irish music and I am looking to developing my guitar playing. At the moment I have played along with a friend on fiddle and he has given me a few great tips to get me started but looking for the best ways now to get my style developed and sounding a bit better than the same few chords over and over again - and not always in the right places!
I have just purchased the Frank Kilkelly book as a starting point but does anyone have any suggestions about best way forward? I do have a guitar teacher at the moment but he doesn't do Irish guitar. I'm in the Manchester area if anyone knows of anyne who can help?
Thanks a lot for any help you can give
Carl
# Posted on January 5th 2008 by carl_mciver
Re: Learning tradtional guitar
Get the right chords in the right place. Listen to the tune!
The fiddlers fake book has good accurate chord settings. I recomend you order it today.
But to be honest the chords are simple, not varied much. Its the patterns that are complicated. If you want to play jazz chords, play jazz.
The expression is in the right hand, you can learn techniques etc but they are just tools for the artist, thats you, to express them selves. You have to put the excitement you feel into your expression of the music.
Listen to a good box player for chords. Try Jackie Daly.
A good box player will understand both aspects of the music.
Less is more, if in doubt play quieter or use silence to accent what you do play.
Add to the music, dont detract from it.
# Posted on January 5th 2008 by jig
Re: Learning tradtional guitar
LEARN DADGAD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I like it much better when my accompianist plays in DADGAD than in standard tuning. This is despite the fact he is more adept at standard.
# Posted on January 6th 2008 by rob_handel
Re: Learning tradtional guitar
My favourite couple of session guitar accompanists I've come across us mostly use std, occasionally dropping a D or 2. Overall though, I've never come up with a this tuning is better than that one, just I like what this player does with his/her guitar best.
Re volume, sometimes I'm glad of a good guitarist playing louder. I find some nights it does really help keep things together and personally (melody on tenor/mandolin), I like having a reliable beat to keep in with.
# Posted on January 6th 2008 by Jon Freeman
Re: Learning tradtional guitar
Know the tune - the tune is the key. Everything you need is in the tune.
Think tune.
# Posted on January 6th 2008 by Sugarfoot Jack
Re: Learning tradtional guitar
Think tune, but I for one would need more than that.
I can play basic guitar chords to accompany myself singing I can play melody (although not on guitar) but I can't find the chords and touches that make the guitar work well accompanying them and full bars of full std tuned open G/D, etc. tend to sound horrible.
I think my own starting point if I wanted to learn would be to pick the brains of a local session player who's style appealed to me and see what leads come from that.
# Posted on January 6th 2008 by Jon Freeman
Re: Learning tradtional guitar
The thing is if the tune is a full bar of G arpeggio or such like that is what the guitar should play, we are there to support the melody and players, not display how many chords we know!. Substitution, i was taught is not trad in ITM.
The job is to make that G chord sound good using dynamics, strumming and/or picking patterns, inversions, walking bass lines perhaps, all the techniques we have.
It is quite likely in a G bar that the melody will hit a C say so the chords can too. But if that C is one note the chords have to change that fast too.The mistake people make is thinking that some how this form of music is easy, some apects are right enough, but some simply are not.
# Posted on January 6th 2008 by jig
Re: Learning tradtional guitar
As an observer, what I've noticed at least with std tuning players (I'm not familiar with DADGAD) is that sometimes the chords look pretty much like the open chords I know but often with an extra note say played with little finger in and others with a finger "missing" and it' just seems to be subtle changes like that making the whole thing effective.
Of course some sometimes do things that look to me rather more complicated and I like bass runs,etc....
# Posted on January 6th 2008 by Jon Freeman
Re: Learning tradtional guitar
Thank you for all the comments and advice so far! It pretty much ties in with what I have thought about - and have started listening to as much music as possible as often as possible to learn as many tunes as possible. I have been trying with my playing as a couple of people have suggested to play the same chords in different inversions rather than trying to throw in a load of fancy different ones and this is something I definitely need to work at more! Main challenge I feel for me is to get the rhythms sounding right - have a habit at the minute of things ending up a bit swingy I have been told so need to drum that habit out very quickly! I think a lot of practice at the right hand is going to be the best first step for me and then once I have that sorted then worrying more about chords, inversions etc?
I have experimented a little with DADGAD tuning but found it quite difficult to get my head round that after playing around with the guitar for a number of years (but not really making any real progress till lately) and it seems like a bit of a foreign language to me at the minute. I've played around with drop D tuning a little too and quite liked the results of this so far so will see which style suits best once I get into things a little bit more!
I do recognise this isn't going to be a quick road to become anywhere near proficient in the music - or even to have the nerve to go to a session but reckon it'll be fun trying to get there anyhow!
# Posted on January 6th 2008 by carl_mciver
Re: Learning tradtional guitar
John Doyle uses drop D, doesn't he? And has some instructional materials out, I believe. You could do worse, for a "mentor."
# Posted on January 6th 2008 by mickray
Re: Learning tradtional guitar
Yes I have been listening to a fair bit of John Doyle's music and watching quite a bit - only on YouTube so far but have been very impressed with his techniques! Helps that he is left handed too so is like looking in a mirror!
# Posted on January 6th 2008 by carl_mciver
Re: Learning tradtional guitar
Carl, how long have you been playng guitar? Do you have experience accompanying tunes an another style?
If you're very comfortable with standard tuning, I'd recommend staying with it until you have some facility with accompanying the tunes. Introducing DADGAD now will likely just get in the way.
Instead of thinking in terms of full chords, see what you can do with just two strings at a time. That'll make it easy to concentrate more on the rhythm and you'll probably learn some things that wouldn't occur to you if you're playing full chords.
# Posted on January 7th 2008 by Bob himself
...
Playing full, thick chords can be a grand thing, but it can also become tiresome to the listener and can bury some of the subtle beauty of the tune. But, if that's the style you're after, feel free to ignore my advice. I often do.
# Posted on January 7th 2008 by Bob himself
Re: Learning tradtional guitar
Yes you should go to sessions to watch the guitar players' hands and see what chords they are playing.
# Posted on January 7th 2008 by dogmageek
Re: Learning tradtional guitar
I was in the same situation than yours. I'm lazy so I play in DropD rather than learning DADGAD. Only one string to change the chord when you can play EADGBE. And I often play chords which "didn't" exist before I start to play ITM. I often let free strings sounding.
I listen to CD and try to play the same bass run whatever is the guitar player (DADGAD or etc...). It works most of the time.
Don't forget, the right hand is the most important for a right handed player, if not he takes it the other way!
good work
# Posted on January 7th 2008 by emelinebel
Re: Learning tradtional guitar
Hi,
Homespun Tapes is the distributor for the John Doyle Guitar DVD. Here's the link, http://www.homespuntapes.com/prodpg/prodpg.asp?prodID=130&prodType=
It's a US company, but they ship to the UK.
They also have a DVD for DADGAD by Al Petteway that is well done. http://www.homespuntapes.com/prodpg/prodpg.asp?prodID=181&prodType=
Sarah McQuaid also has a good DADGAD book. It's available on Amazon at http://www.amazon.com/Irish-DADGAD-Guitar-Book/dp/0946005931.
There's a lot of stuff out there, both good and bad. Google "DADGAD", or just "guitar"and see what you come up with.
Listen to Michael O'Donnel with Kevin Burke or the Bothy Band or anything with Zan McLoed, they both use DADGAD exclusively.
Good luck,
Tom Greene
# Posted on January 7th 2008 by tfgreene
Re: Learning tradtional guitar
John Doyles video has helped many,best I've seen.
# Posted on January 7th 2008 by edorian
Re: Learning tradtional guitar
Michael O'D also played in standard tuning. I saw him with Kevin Burke several times and noticed him retuning frequently.
# Posted on January 7th 2008 by Bob himself
Re: Learning tradtional guitar
My experience is limited, but this is what have learned from playing guitar in sessions.
1 ) listen to the melody, the right chord will give the melody depth. Sometimes a phrase may repeat itself in the melody, but you can use an alternate set of chords to add interest, but listen to the melody.
2)Play with others - keep your ear on the other players, they know when you have perfected a riff and thy will change the key and the tune, just to keep you busy. All in good fun, I know that because they are always smiling.
3)there is no law requiring yo to use all 6 strings - you can vary the fabric of your playing by using 2, or 3 three strings, and often you can fit into a song better when you are quite.
4)know thy keys - if you listen, the melody will spell out the key and the chord changes, but you have to know the language.
5)Often I find that I catch new ideas and learn new approaches from watching other guitar player.
5)Listen.
# Posted on January 8th 2008 by toumi
Re: Learning tradtional guitar
''but you can use an alternate set of chords to add interest, but listen to the melody''
Well now, i would disagree with that, im sure many wouldnt, but there is no need to add harmonic 'interest' substitution is substitution. If its aG major riff it really needs a Gmajor chord. An Em wont do. sure people do it all the time, but.....
for the tune player it severely limits the melodic ornamentation, you are implying an extended chord.
I know what i say will likely be ignored but at least i try. as a tune player please, please dont substitute a relative minor for the correct major, its as good as tripping me up, distracting me. limiting me and down right annoying. there i have said it, take it as you will.
# Posted on January 8th 2008 by jig
Re: Learning tradtional guitar
Here is a great resource i just saw today for aspiring chordists;
home.comcast.net/~saustin98/lark
courtesy of Steve Austin. thanks Steve.
learn the chord patterns from here. they will give you a head start in trying to accompany by ear. They look simple but its what you do with them that matters.
# Posted on January 8th 2008 by jig
Re: Learning tradtional guitar
Frank Kilkelly's book/CD is excellent.
http://www.irishguitar.net/
# Posted on January 8th 2008 by Tintin
Re: Learning tradtional guitar
While respecting Jig’s view I do have to take issue with it. I’m a melody player – banjo, mandolin and guitar as well as, more recently enjoying accompanying tunes. (I took up the guitar again after a 20 year layoff!)
There are simply no orthodox chords allocated to Irish tunes so using what you are calling a ‘substitution’ or perhaps just a different inversion of a chord seems to me perfectly valid. No fiddle player would heed a call to strip ornamentation from his/her playing and using interesting chord sequences is akin to that. Lots of tunes repeat or nearly repeat sections and within sections so why not colour them differently a second time round?
I play sessions weekly in the Cheshire area: melody on banjo; leading tunes by starting melody on guitar and then switching to chords and backing. No one seems put off or limited by my approach, quite the reverse so maybe Jig has had a bad experience with accompanists.
For the record I would recommend John Doyle’s video and book as a really useful starter but learn to flatpick the tunes as well for your own satisfaction.
# Posted on January 10th 2008 by Rob
Re: Learning tradtional guitar
Inversions yes, of course, passing chords that relate strictly to the melody , great, but substituting a relative minor... no thanks. Traditionally, so i was taught, and i respect that, there is no substitution in trad.
Now fair enough, in the past 20 yrs it has become an acceptable thing. However I personally find it very off putting. This is because, within the melody are the chords and within the chords are the melody. Perhaps my approach is to some extent old fashioned but by no means would I suggest that it is the only way. Far from it, the new wave of trad is alive and kicking, incorporating numerous foreign influences. In its place I am all for it, it keeps the music moveing and interests new people. My heart is however clearly with the pure drop.
This concept that there are no orthodox chords, hmm it seems very strange to me, If the melody is a G major arpeggio, then anything but a Gmajor chord is to me clearly wrong. Bringing in an Em means we are directly clashing my D with your E. this is called discord as i am sure you know. Now while the modern ear is perhaps used to discord and distortion I maintain it has little if any place in trad.
I approach this from a different angle. I have been backing for 25 yrs and only playing the tunes seriously for 15 or so.
I view the guitar as the wave we as tune players surf upon, that wave should be steady and reliable otherwise it can all come crashing down. Our job as guitarists is to create that solid and lively rhythmic backing, not, in my opinion, a wishy washy half hearted wave not really going anywhere, but a strong clear well formed solid accurate true reflection of the melody. To actually play the melody within the chord pattern.
Rhythm guitarists who understand this music are rare and valuable. All it needs for a quality sound is a 2 piece; guitar and fiddle/banjo or whistle. this is an economically viable set up, and the core in a session. Any one who can do the job well enough is in.
Anyhow that is simply my opinion. and experiance.
# Posted on January 10th 2008 by jig
Re: Learning tradtional guitar
I see your point: I'm probably not being clear enough. I'd be likely to substitute, say, and Em7 for a Gmaj but probably on a repeat of a section or a Cmaj7 for an Em but I think it's in cases where those notes are in the melody: there's no discord apparent and its more subtle than trying to substitute a straight Em for a G which wouldn't work as well.
And, of course I am one of your 'rare and valuable' guitarists!
# Posted on January 10th 2008 by Rob
Re: Learning tradtional guitar
Hi Carl,
since the guitar isn't even accepted yet as a folk instrument in Ireland, it can be an uphill task to find a direction in folk or trad guitar.
I am an Irish guitarist and I'd be willing to swap emails with ya for bits of advice and whatever. Let me know what stage you're at so far, and email to martinmurphymusic all one word at eircom dot net.
Good luck!
Martin
# Posted on September 14th 2008 by Martin Murphy