The Session >> Discussions >> tips for a beginner and motivational words of encouragement
Comments
tips for a beginner and motivational words of encouragement
tips for a beginner and motivational words of encouragement
Hi everyone.
I am a newbie to playing the fiddle and have been taking a half hour lesson weekly since October. Things are going pretty well... all things considered. The biggest problem I am facing is frustration because I can hear the deficiencies in my playing and it bothers me to no end. Things aren't progressing as quickly as I would like and it just isn't in my blood to be patient.
So, was hoping to hear some stories from beginners (new and old) that I could relate to and help me feel not so bad about this. Also hoping perhaps a few good tips that could help speed up my progression might be gained in the process.
So my questions....
1. What has worked for you to stay motivated and less bummed out about sounding like crap? (certainly you have all been there at some point -- please, please, please say yes!)
2. What one tip would give a beginner to help them improve? Something you may have learned or discovered over time that helped things click.
Thanks to all of you for taking the time to respond. I enjoy reading all the posts. The knowledge distributed here invaluable and the banter is sometimes just downright entertaining. Thanks again!
Re: tips for a beginner and motivational words of encouragement
1. Relax, you haven't been playing that long. Don't compare yourself to others. A drawback of having great recordings so easily accessible, people today have a reference point that is set quite high. Yes, listen to great recordings, but strive for the best tone you can get, in your space, in your time.
2. keep playing, relax your arms and shoulders, do what your teacher tells you. Improvise with some free form stuff, play open strings, getting the tone you like, move to adding fingers... fall in love with the sound you can get playing simple figures.
then...
play, play, and play some more
Re: tips for a beginner and motivational words of encouragement
You've already cracked the biggest problem - you can actually hear the deficiencies in your own playing. Some people never achieve that.
The two biggest milestones that stuck out for me were the first time I lost the tune and managed to regain it without having to wait for the beginning of the A part, and the first time I played a tune which I hadn't learned beforehand, played it by ear without thinking about it and it came out right. In both cases there was a real sense of "now I'm finally getting somewhere".
My best advice is to keep learning as many tunes as possible, and once you are comfortable playing in company to play with as many different people as possible. Each one teaches you something different and all those little pieces add up in the long run.
Re: tips for a beginner and motivational words of encouragement
I have three tips.
Play with others who can tolerate someone who is learning.
Play a tune many times through at a go.
Listen to someone with talent play a tune at speed before you attempt to learn it.
When I was just starting out, I played all alone. I performed for myself. I sounded dreadful. After several years of the same, I was dragged almost unwillingly to a group practice for a band that plays for dancers. I was way too slow and could hardly get a note in as the tunes flew by. Even so, I was invited back again and again. They said that the band rule was that no one would criticize a person for playing a wrong note, but they had better be on the beat. I learned from this to speed up my practices. Repetition, memorization, and some technique helped with speed.
I used to have dozens of tunes I wanted to learn. I'd try to practice them all. Inevitably, I'd practice too many and learn too few. I now practice few tunes many times. Much better.
When I am unmotivated, I'll roll a die to determine how many times to play a tune. Sometimes I won't have warmed up to a tune yet and I haven't admitted it to myself. Playing it 4 to 6 times through would yield a better understanding of the tune and I'll actually enjoy it by the 3rd time through. The lack of motivation problem will suddenly be solved. If I get a 1, I'll play it once and move on. This makes the practice unpredictable and less monotonous.
Sometimes I think I know a tune and then I hear it on whistles and the heart and soul of the tune are revealed. I go back to practicing and try to capture that same feeling. It could be I've stressed the wrong notes or botched the rhythm.
Re: tips for a beginner and motivational words of encouragement
Well, I've been learning fiddle for a year & a half and I'm still frustrated! How's that for motivation! Ha!
You're taking lessons, that's good. Practice as much as you can, every day. Probably the thing that motivates me the most is any tiny improvement I can see from week to week, month to month. You'll see things like your fourth finger getting stronger, your intonation getting better, your hands relaxing more---every little thing is something to be happy about because it all builds on itself and eventually you'll be sounding better. It's really kind of fun when you pick up a tune you couldn't play six months ago and now it's easy! And that *will* happen---as long as you don't give up!
I wonder if you might be pushing yourself a little hard---you're *supposed* to sound horrible at three months! I'm guilty of the same thing, though---on the one hand, it doesn't seem rational to constantly struggle to do something you're not yet capable of doing, but on the other hand, the size of the challenge and the great desire to play well is where the motivation lies.
So no great and wise answers from me, unfortunately. Keep at it and come here with questions---there are some amazing people on this board who will give you the best advice.
Re: tips for a beginner and motivational words of encouragement
My answers, from another adult beginner,
1. When I'd been playing for two months, at about the same stage you're at now, frauschmittle, I too despaired of ever learning to play the instrument properly. In a moment of frustration, I picked up a blank cassette tape and tape recorder, and recorded myself playing a polka that had been giving me grief. That became a ritual: every week, I randomly select ten tunes to record myself playing. I now focus not on playing *well*, but on playing *better* than I did before, and having changed my focus in that way, I can relax and enjoy the ride. (My standards are not only high, they're constantly in flux; a year and a half ago I'd have been delighted to be able to play as well as I play now, but over the past year and a half I've also become a lot pickier. A few months ago, my teacher asked me what I wanted to work on. "Nothing sounds the way I want it to," I lamented, and he replied, matter-of-factly, "Well, that never changes.") At the end of every week I compare my new recordings to ones I made a few months earlier. In moments when I wonder if my intonation will ever be acceptable, or if I'll ever nail every triplet I attempt, I can draw upon some physical documentation that confirms that my intonation used to be a lot worse and I'd once smudged every single triplet I tried.
2. My main tip: one thing at a time. If you're working on intonation, for instance, forget your tone, your rhythm and your bowing for the meantime. You can put everything together later. Easier said than done, mind you, for me anyway: I know my tunes holistically, and once I lose the beat I often lose the tune. I've spent the past few weeks really working on intonation, and it's been necessary for me work on tunes note by note, sloooowly. If I'm dead set on maintaining the beat, I'll be letting a lot of bum notes pass just in order to keep time. Which I'll do at sessions, or when specifically working on my rhythm - but if I want to iron out my intonation, that has to be my singular focus.
Re: tips for a beginner and motivational words of encouragement
Ooh, yeah, one thing at a time, that's a good one. That helped me relax my bowing arm. For two whole weeks, that's all I did, I forgot about intonation, learning tunes, ornaments, everything---all I did was stare at my right arm and made sure it didn't move back and forth. And that did it. Of course, I sounded like I was back to strangling small animals, but that went away after a while. I think.
Re: tips for a beginner and motivational words of encouragement
I have been playing fiddle for around 4 years, and what you are saying sounds oh so familiar. Hang in there, it does get better.
I think that once you have the basics of how to hold the instrument, a lot of the details will work themselves out over time as you make conscious and unconscious incremental adjustments to how you play. I think this is try for your left hand (dexterity, intonation, etc).
I think it is also often true for repertoire.
But I think that this gradual improvement scenario is _not_ the case, at least for many or most players, when it comes to right hand issues -- they will _not_ somehow just work themselves out. If you learn bad technique in your bowing, you will likely have to put in a bunch of effort later on to "uproot" this bad technique and try to put the proper technique in its place. And I can assure that having to do this is irritating and frustrating! So my tip to you would be to put particular focus on bowing at this stage in your fiddle career.
.
Re: tips for a beginner and motivational words of encouragement
It's normal to feel like you're not making progress, the fiddle has a high begginer's curve. It's good that you can hear areas that might need improvement. You need to make an honest list of those shortcomings. The things you should work on are intonation timing & tone.
I was just practicing an old technique I haven't used in years where I take a digital chromatic tuner & play through a tune at a slow pace & make sure that every note is in tune. It was harder than I thought - there are certain notes I was playing consistently out of tune. It's a very good exercise for intonation.
For timing use something like the amazing slowdowner & play along with a tune at a slow tempo & make sure that your giving the right notes emphasis. Not so much in volume but more in timing to give it the right lift.
Bear with me on this - In a jig a measure is made up two sets of three notes. The first note is held for about twice as long as the third note which is about twice as long as the second. so if you break the first three notes into sixteenths they would be grouped as roughly a dotted eigth a sixteenth then an eighth. Same goes for the fourth fifth & sixth notes. Now this is completely open for debate & not set in stone, many prefer a less syncopated feel but it will help to get some lift into your music. (I know Jeremy hates abc in discussion) please forgive me, but the first measure of Banish Misfortune would by played more like this f>dc B>AG. Also a note on bowing, although this is open for debate & depends on style, I found a general rule of thumb is to slur (not change bow direction) when going into the first & fourth (& seventh for a slip jig) notes of a jig and changing directions going into the 2nd & 3rd notes.
For reels try to play the 1st 3rd 5th & 7th notes of each bar a little longer & a little louder. Same for hornpipes. Listening to good fiddle players can help you sort out exactly the difference, hornpipes are not simply slow reels. One other bowing tip for hornpipes is to make sure the triplets are indeed triplets (three notes in the time of two) and no matter how much work bow every note - don't slur them all together.
Tone is more & less complicated - if you've got a good grip on your bow & are holding the instrument right you'll get as much tone out of your fiddle as it has to offer. If you have a thin nasally instrument it doesn't matter on your technique, you will hit a limit in how good you can make it sound. That being said, an expensive fiddle doesn't always guarantee a tone of gold. Above all if you haven't had your fiddle 'set up' do so immediately I've heard $100 ebay fiddles that had bad tone sound like gold with the right set up. It's not a guarantee but I've never heard it do any damage. A good bow is worth it too, I know more than one fiddler who's bow cost much more than their instrument & how happy they were after with the results of a well balanced bow.
Way too much advice, but these are things I wish someone had told me in the early days of my cat-scratchery.
Re: tips for a beginner and motivational words of encouragement
Martin Hayes says that fiddlers have to have a great fantasy life because otherwise they could never bear the time and effort it takes to sound as good in reality as they imagine the fiddle should sound.
The two most important things to focus on are rhythm and tone. In Irish fiddling, not much else matters, by comparison. So no matter how many elements of fiddling you're trying to learn (tunes, intonation, bowing, fingering, cuts and rolls, etc.), make sure that you're working as much or more on developing a steady beat (in all the time signatures) and a clear, strong tone.
And in terms of *how* you learn, the most important thing is to go slow. Don't try to play faster than your fingers and bow hand and brain can manage. Speed comes with time and years of repetition.
Listen to other fiddlers whose playing you admire. Listen closely and deeply, trying to suss out every nuance, as well as the phrasing, timing, and overall shape of tunes. Listen, listen, listen. Play a lot. And make sure that it's really ***play*** Don't grind the music out, but lift it from the strings.
Re: tips for a beginner and motivational words of encouragement
1. You know, no idea. How did I ever survive those days of ew-y? I should know, since they still pop up at least 6 days a week, after 3 years or so. I guess you just...play through them. When you better up and level off a bit, you can at least say, "Well, I stopped absolutely FAILING on that two-string jump", and it works.
2. Probably the single-best experience I had for improving my playing was to round up all my old, old recordings and just say, "I'm going to learn a tune a day from these old albums." I was hearing so much intonation and ornamentation and MUSIC that it just...clicked? Before I knew it, Padraig o'Keeffe was my homeboy.
Re: tips for a beginner and motivational words of encouragement
frustration: the feeling you get when you're ready to move to the next level on your instrument (this is from a beginning harmonica book). I've been playing music for 20 years and I still need this to get me through rough patches. No kidding.
Re: tips for a beginner and motivational words of encouragement
work overtime on a couple of simple, fun tunes.Any time you feel the wheels spinning, go back to these old friends and belt 'em out.
This only helps a little bit, but it feels good and one day when you're a hundred years old you will be able to do this with all of them. (Theory)
Re: tips for a beginner and motivational words of encouragement
Man this is me all over.
I was the very same when I started.. still am.
The best advice i can give is the hardest for an impatient person to follow.... practice SLOWLY. play a tune really slowly concentrating on intonation and crisp ornamentation. it will pay off loads. You will progress much quicker if you take your time. I didnt believe it until i tried.
Re: tips for a beginner and motivational words of encouragement
1 Take pleasure from every improvement, no matter how small.
2 I've been learning about 2 years, and having lessons for 1 year. I find that one lesson a month suits me much better than would one a week. Each one hour lesson always gives me plenty of ideas to work on for the next month, and after a month my teacher is pretty much always able to identify significant progress in my playing. I also prefer a longer lesson, an hour or sometimes a bit longer.
3 On intonation: for the third finger finger note you should be able to hear resonance with the string below (eg D on the A string should start the D string vibrating). You should also be able to see that the resonating strung is vibrating.
Re: tips for a beginner and motivational words of encouragement
I remember the hardest thing I had to cope with was the dreadful headaches I was giving myself.
I don't believe motivation is an issue. Motivation is simply desire. If you are having trouble with motivation, you just don't desire it enough.
I think you already nailed the biggest tip I could give. And that is to listen very very carefully to your self all the time. Hard, I know, especially when it's such a god awful din.
"The biggest problem I am facing is frustration because I can hear the deficiencies in my playing and it bothers me to no end". Just try not to think of this as a problem, but as your solution. The more your deficiancies bother you, the sooner you'll overcome them.
Re: tips for a beginner and motivational words of encouragement
Well great advice all, though I would disagree with theo, I think that one lesson a month is lamentably few, perhaps later on but at the beginning the most important factor is avoiding ingraining errors in your daily practice. If you practice really hard dailly, but practicing a bad habit, you will then have to undo this habit, if someone spots it.
Its like setting a course, 1 degree error at the begining can lead you a thousand miles astray without correction.
Twice weekly is the sensible minimum.
But the important factor is a good coach. I say coach, because there are two approaches to teaching, the teacher sets you a task, after you accomplish this they mark it and set you another.
A coach on the other hand will analyse your form looking for mistakes, then sets you remedial exercises.
Acombination approach is best.
With daily lessons each lesson focuses on a much smaller aspect of your playing, after one week you will have moved on systematically.
I can hear people saying [voices in my head? ] ; but who in their right mind gets lessons every day!?
My answer is ; dedicated people, who are prepared, and able to focus, people who dont go to the pub, but to their lessons. They know what they want, and they know how to get it.
So the Ideal; daily lessons from a world class master.
For the rest of us, what ever we can get.
Dont look for progress. Accept that it will come slowly. If you are not the patient type then are you really the right type for the fiddle?. If you want to play the fiddle you had better learn to be patient!
Id second kennedys advice.
I liked the bit about rolling the dice, but would suggest a slight modification; use two.
Re: tips for a beginner and motivational words of encouragement
Yes, playing one tune over and over can be good. But right from the start get into the habit of stringing tunes together. Play all the jigs you know, back to back, and in different orders. And the same with your reels.
Re: tips for a beginner and motivational words of encouragement
and take time to practiceslowly...at our session this past week there were some folks in from out of town who played some great tunes..stuff I did not know, so I spent most of my time recording and listening and enjoying the tunes...
but the 15 year old fiddler played everything so Cleanly and relaxed, while still getting lift and cutting and rolling and everything that one would want, without being showy or adding stuff that the tune did not need...I was impressed by that, so now I am focused on playing slowly and more clean.
Re: tips for a beginner and motivational words of encouragement
Keep listening.
Keep playing, especially with others.
Remember you will have good days (when you think 'Great I'm getting somewhere' ) and bad days (when you think 'I'll never get the hang of this').
That's the only words of wisdom I can offer, after 4 years of mainly 'self taught' learning.
Re: tips for a beginner and motivational words of encouragement
Thanks for this terrific question! -- and for the great responses and advice. I think it's good for fiddlers to hear how others approach learning. And, at least for me, learning never seems to stop.
One thing I'll mention:
Sometimes it's best to be more analytical and less emotional about the progress you're making. If you're getting daily practice, you'll be fine. And the farther along you get, the better you'll become at figuring out what you should be working on to improve.
In other words, "I sound lousy" is an emotional response -- I know that feeling, believe me -- but the question should then be "Why?" And that can lead to you getting a better understanding of your own playing. Don't be afraid to put the fiddle down, walk away, and then think about it. Sometimes the best learning takes place away from the instrument.
Take lessons as long as you can, but ultimately you should become your own teacher. Don't be surprised if your teacher asks you, "What do *you* think you should be working on?"
Re: tips for a beginner and motivational words of encouragement
I did not learn as an adult and I don't know if this will be helpful... But I would think it would help.
You might be looking to sound "good" too early. Most people sound pretty bad for the first 3-5 years they play. Wait until you've been doing it for 5 years without progress before you decide you are behind the curve.
Re: tips for a beginner and motivational words of encouragement
An aside; Its interesting, Apparantly, playing for sets it was common practice to play one tune for each figure. For example, according to Micheal Tubridy, Mrs Crotty would, when playing solo, rarely string two tunes together.
Allthough it is common practice now, let us remember it was not allways thus. is this an example of the recording process influencing the artistic decisions?
Sorry, back to the subject; Scales, Scales, arpegios, and patterns. play them lots till your intonation is good. Then start playing tunes and parts of tunes.
Re: tips for a beginner and motivational words of encouragement
I was very much the same as you when I began. I hate being bad at things, and so that was motivation to get better in its own right. I got dragged to sessions by my ex, and I couldn't keep up, which p*ssed me off even more, and made me work really hard at getting better. People at the sessions were ultra encouraging - even to the point where I felt like I was being patronized, because I could hear how bad I was, but they were all saying that I was sounding great (relatively speaking).
Listen to as much Irish music as you can, as well as listening to yourself. If you can truly internalize the feel of the music, it will be easier for you to emulate it. And when you listen to yourself play, try to identify what parts of it don't sound the same (besides the speed, of course).
While it's good to keep learning new tunes, it's also important to work hard on the ones you already know. It's more important to be able to play your tunes *well*, rather than to be able to play a million tunes. If there's one tune that you've absorbed well, and have pretty much down pat, you can use that tune to work on ornamentation, swing, lift, and speed, because you have to expend less brain power worrying about what individual notes you're playing.
Try recording yourself playing a single tune, and then take a week or two of pushing yourself pretty hard to work on the various bits of that tune, and then record yourself again and compare the two. You will be amazed at how much progress you can make in the course of a week, and it's encouraging to be able to actually hear the difference in recordings, because you can't judge your progress very well in your head as it is happening.
And if you're feeling burned out, give it a rest for a bit. If it's not fun, there's less chance that you're going to stick with it.
Re: tips for a beginner and motivational words of encouragement
The most successful fitness / weight loss / 12-step / AA / "quit smoking" programs all rely on the buddy system. When I was beginning my journey into this music (and it is a journey not a destination) it sure helped to have a few friends of similar skill sets to learn with. We encouraged each other, pushed each other and learned tunes much faster than if we had done it on our own.
Re: tips for a beginner and motivational words of encouragement
"Scales, Scales, arpegios, and patterns. play them lots till your intonation is good. Then start playing tunes and parts of tunes."
Since tunes are entirely made from scales, arpegios and patterns, the logic of playing scales, arpegios and patterns before you start playing tunes and parts of tunes escapes me.
Re: tips for a beginner and motivational words of encouragement
This is a great discussion. I, also, took up the fiddle last October. I play the box and decided I needed more punishment. I almost gave up after the second lesson, as it sounded so brutal, but having a great teacher has been wonderful. Encouragement is everything even when you know you suck. Fortunately things have improved, even if just at a snail's pace and I have learned not to expect miracles. Now that my neck doesn't kill me from the death hold grip I had on the fiddle, I'm starting to relax and enjoy the challenge of this amazing instrument. I have great respect for those who play the fiddle well. Learning to play a couple of tunes well is my goal for now. Hang in there!
Heather
Re: tips for a beginner and motivational words of encouragement
It's a complex instrument - keep your expectations realistic. You have a big down payment to make on the price of that complexity. As you start to get things under control you'll find you have a lot more options than with an instrument that does most of the work for you. It will continue to dole out rewards as you jump the hurdles, which is what keeps it interesting for you in the long run.
2 - budget your practice time: don't spend much time on what you are already capable of doing. Warm up on that stuff to get your head in gear, then move on.
Re: tips for a beginner and motivational words of encouragement
and I will add, start learning a tune by ear as soon as you can..jigs seem easier to me to pick up..or a polka..but start by ear...the sooner the better and leaning this way is as learned as anything else
Re: tips for a beginner and motivational words of encouragement
On this ... "Scales, Scales and arpegios" question ... I was a self taught guitar player of some 30 years experience before I picked up a fiddle for the first time 2 years ago. Having a prior knowldege of scales and arpegio's from my guitar playing days has helped me immensely in learning tunes. If we accept that the best way to learn this style music is by ear then having a basic knowledge of scales and the patterns must serve as the basic building block upon which to learn the tunes.
My top tips are be a sponge. Play with other people. Watch them, listen to them and soak up as much as you can. Listen to CD's, or Mp3's, play everyday and go to as many workshops, gigs and sessions as you can.
Re: tips for a beginner and motivational words of encouragement
the logic of playing scales etc before tunes is that you are isolating aspects of a whole for focusing upon. The scale is simple , the tunes more complicated, once the simple part is accomplished [ walking] then the more complicated part is approachable [running]
Attempting to run before you can walk is not a system generally recomended.
I hasten to add this is but one aspect of the generous gifts recieved from scale practice.
Re: tips for a beginner and motivational words of encouragement
Nice advice here. Relax. Remember why you are doing what you are doing and stay focused on that. Compare what you are doing with others-God knows you learn something from everyone you hear. But don't expect to be there. Be realistic.
My ITM teacher-a virtuoso musician in his own right- said when he was learing jazz piano, he became frustrated because there was a passage from Oscar Peterson that eluded him. A pianist freind reminded him that Mr. Peterson was the regular guy at Mr. Kelly's in Chicago night after night for years. You are not going to make up all that playing time-no way, no how- when you are just starting out. That's the advice he gave me when I was 'hitting the wall' as it were. We all do.
I differ on how to handle the practice though. When you are starting, some parts of a tune you will get. Others won't come as easy.
Spend more time on the hard parts than the parts that come easy. Work on them in 7 to 9 note "chunks". Then work them to flow with the parts you know. Forget the speed. Concentrate on rhythm. Also, don't do long practice sessions-multiple hours.
Your brain is a bit of a sponge and needs time to absorb what you are trying to learn. My sweetie, Herself, is a well respected teacher. She is adamant that learning sessions be relatively short and then take time to rest. Kids she says can only go 20-25 minutes to a learning session. Older farts like me can go longer. But most literature on this suggest 45 minutes is tops.
Some give a rule of thumb for learning time as your age plus 5 (say you are 40, your practice should be 45 minutes). but 45 minutes is usually a max. Then a minimum 15 minute break away from the instrument-listen to music, get a cup of tea.
I am finding the approach productive even if it sounds like educational voodoo. Particularly the 'chunking'
I with whoever said you are already making progress because you are not satisfied and are frustrated. You know that you want to get better.
Re: tips for a beginner and motivational words of encouragement
Oscar Peterson just passed away 12/23/07... His legacy is going to leave a lot of pianists frustrated.
I used to be in the "scales and arpeggios" camp but in retrospect, I think I devoted a lot more time to them than was really required - despite being told not to worry about it so much. You need a good foundation, but most of it can been picked up with the instrument still in the case. If you thoroughly understand the concepts, the exact mechanics of producing them (bowings/fingerings/shifting) isn't so mysterious. It's more important to be able to pick apart the tunes and harmonies and understand why they work than to be able to execute the underlying scales/arpeggios with absolute precision. You can drill the tunes themselves for the technique you need if you understand this. Then you not only have the core technique down, you get quite a few tunes under your belt as well.
Re: tips for a beginner and motivational words of encouragement
Curious, monkey, how are you with Improvisation? Say swing, or spanish, or just jamming in with other singers etc?
Scales are the key to this stuff too, understanding the chords,and key/s listening/learning by ear.
Of course you could be right, perhaps you can spend too much time on scales and exercises, not that I have , still struggling with Fluency in the higher positions, double stops in 3rds, fifths,sixths ,etc. Ahh, one day1
Of course they are exercises/steps towards actually playing music, and there is no doubt that playing the music is the aim, but lets be clear, we want to play the music well, not scratchy, out of tune , slack, rhythm-less stuff, but the real deal.. If you cant play first position scales with beautifull tone, and precise rhythm what hope have you of playing a tune with these qualities?
Re: tips for a beginner and motivational words of encouragement
Michael a écrit:
"Since tunes are entirely made from scales, arpegios and patterns, the logic of playing scales, arpegios and patterns before you start playing tunes and parts of tunes escapes me."
Bullseye and amen to that. Scales, arpeggios and the like are the number one reason for kids dropping out of playing instruments. They are anti-fun, and if you want to play ITM you want to play for fun first and foremost. The world tour can come later.
Re: tips for a beginner and motivational words of encouragement
Get a teacher and/or Book 1 of Suzuki.
Get a mirror and watch your bowing in that, try to keep it at 90 degrees to the strings - looks like + - and try to keep the bow hair flat on the strings as well as midway between the bridge and end of fingerboard
Next do that type practice but with a metronome. Begin at slow tempos and increase each time around your bowing exercises.
Next learn to put a pulse into your bowing by stopping and starting the bow again IN THE SAME DIRECTION either up or down.
When you can bow well and keep good time with the metronome, you will be ready to begin learning the folk fiddle.
Take simple tunes to start, eg those you hear in your locality, Mazurkas, Waltzes - ie tunes you already know by ear.
Next get " The Irish Fiddle" by Matt Cranitch Pub Ossian Cork Ireland and the two CDs. From there begin to slowly acquire tunes and bowings.
Re: tips for a beginner and motivational words of encouragement
I don't buy the walk before you can run analogy. I don't buy it that tunes are harder to play than scales. Technically, they are the same thing.
Try looking at it this way: Playing scales is like learning to run on one of those treadmill things in your bedroom. You start by walking, set the thing a little faster and learn to walk a bit faster. Then you learn to jump in between steps and pretty soon you're jogging along nicely. Except you are still in your bedroom.
Re: tips for a beginner and motivational words of encouragement
>Curious, monkey, how are you with Improvisation? Say swing, or spanish, or just jamming in with other singers etc?
Played a lot of bass in my teen+years - nearly all of it improv. About half of that swing/bop. The violin took a back seat for a while. I eventually grew tired of dealing with bar smoke, drums, & amps and revisited classical violin full time for several years and then meandered into bluegrass and western swing. ITM is a whole other universe
Re: tips for a beginner and motivational words of encouragement
"Played a lot of bass in my teen+years "
I saw that, totally misinterpreted it, and thought, Oh yeah! Play the bass a lot, so you can get comfortable with fingerings in all octaves, all across the instrument. It will really help you understand the strings, the finger positions, their relationships, keys and modes, that kind of stuff. It's a really practical exercise in harmony and theory.
Re: tips for a beginner and motivational words of encouragement
''I don't buy the walk before you can run analogy. I don't buy it that tunes are harder to play than scales. Technically, they are the same thing''
Pull the other one Llig!
Each tune is different , each scale is different, some tunes even use more than one scale, A statement like that is complete nonesense. You say you dont practice, you seem to think scales are pointless, I really begin to wonder quite what it is you do? You do play tunes and stuff yes? I mean, you actually play an instrument right? Sometimes I begin to wonder!
Re: tips for a beginner and motivational words of encouragement
Yes, each tune is different , each scale is different. Notice I said tunes and scales (plural). Tunes and scales and arpegios etc are strings of notes. Any way, we both know it's pointless having an argument about it.
Re: tips for a beginner and motivational words of encouragement
Yea Im sorry, I think I was a bit tetchy, lack of sleep and all that.
Still, if you havnt done your scales then how do you know what you say is true?> Because it isnt.
Re: tips for a beginner and motivational words of encouragement
There is a great book by Kenny Werner called "Effortless Mastery" that is all about overcoming that exact feeling of frustration. My favourite quote from it is: "You are NOT lazy, you are overwhelmed".
His basic idea is you take a TINY piece of music (even, literally 2 or 3 notes) and you play it over and over and over until it is completely unconcious and easy-ie you have MASTERED it. So by definition YOU are now a master. All that is left is to gradually expand the range of your mastery.
Re: tips for a beginner and motivational words of encouragement
Another thing someone said to me once which is true from my experience: Learning an instrument is a process of alternately going UP slopes and ACROSS plateaus. The plateaus are the points where you keep practising but seem to make no progress. The key is this: that its actually these plateaus where most of the learning is being done; the points at which you are ascending are merely the RESULT of the dry stretches.
Re: tips for a beginner and motivational words of encouragement
One final thought: when you have been learning for just one day, by the end of Day 2 you will be twice as good! However, when you have been playing 6 months, it takes 6 months to get twice as good! So if you feel your progress is slowing down its actually a good sign that you must have quite a lot of knowledge under your belt.
Hope all this helps, let us know how you get on.
Re: tips for a beginner and motivational words of encouragement
"Scales, Scales, arpegios, and patterns. play them lots till your intonation is good. Then start playing tunes and parts of tunes."
Since tunes are entirely made from scales, arpegios and patterns, the logic of playing scales, arpegios and patterns before you start playing escapes me.
quote from llig leachim.
imo,playing scales and arpeggios is logical,and is very good practice,particuarly if the student,uses the scales and arpeggios to practise different bowing slurs,
try the scale of eight notes in paired bowing,then slur, three ,three two.or any other combinations..
arpeggios are particuarly good for practising slurring across strings.
practice major scales, mixolydian modes,Dorian modes and aoelian,as they are the ones that crop up, frequently in itm.
Dick Miles
Re: tips for a beginner and motivational words of encouragement
Dick,
Would you ever play two bars of a reel, 8 notes, slurring every second note? Why practice it? Why not practice where you would slur? Why not give a beginner the first part of drowsy maggie to play single bowed and then combinations of slurring across the strings. Then get them to play it with the open D string instead of the third finger of the A string, single bowing and combinations of slurring.
What would the exercises you give above do that my exercise wouldn't?
Re: tips for a beginner and motivational words of encouragement
What you suggest is a valid exercise Llig, though i guess you mean the second part. No one is suggesting otherwise.
However It is an exercise, like scales, arpegio, etc they are not tunes, though parts may well crop up in tunes. Exercises suchas Dick's, who is not jig, are valuable not so much as whether someone would play a reel like that, but that they could if they wanted to.
''There is a great book by Kenny Werner called "Effortless Mastery" that is all about overcoming that exact feeling of frustration. My favourite quote from it is: "You are NOT lazy, you are overwhelmed".
His basic idea is you take a TINY piece of music (even, literally 2 or 3 notes) and you play it over and over and over until it is completely unconcious and easy-ie you have MASTERED it. So by definition YOU are now a master. All that is left is to gradually expand the range of your mastery.@'
That is so true,.
Fofr example; In playing a scale you have to first get past the first few notes with out a mistake. there is little point in practising a scale if it is out of tune! Playing a 2 octave scale is a feat in itself. I can tell you I was delighted when I first achieved that aim, absolutely beaming.
Some scales are easy, some are damn hard. try a 3 octave scale in thirds! Boring huh? I wish.
Re: tips for a beginner and motivational words of encouragement
lig leachim,please quote me correctly.
I did notsay that.
paired bowing can be used in combination with seperates,in polkas, [along with three slurs] in jigs,in hornpipes again with other combinations,and occasionally in reels in combination with others Slurs and seperates
The original poster has only been having half hour lessons for three months,I doubt if he is yet ready for Drowsy Maggie.
Matt Crannitch Irish Fiddle,is a carefully graded tutor which I suggest he buys
,in this carefully graded tutor on page 34 an exercise of the major scale,in paired bowing occurs ,along with other exercises using slurred and seperates,on page 66 slurred paired along with seperate bowing is discussed in relation to polkas.
it is not until PAGE 86,that Drowsy Maggie and its bowing is discussed.
In answer to your last question,it will increase the pupils knowledge of the fingerboard ,and intonation to practise different modes and major scales.
your advice is not spot on,youare not the pupils teacher,you do not know how far they have progressed,neither do I.
But my advice is based on the Cranitch tutor,and the more reasonable assumption that after two months they have not progressed to be ready for Drowsy Maggie.DickMiles
tips for a beginner and motivational words of encouragement
tips for a beginner and motivational words of encouragement
Hi everyone.
I am a newbie to playing the fiddle and have been taking a half hour lesson weekly since October. Things are going pretty well... all things considered. The biggest problem I am facing is frustration because I can hear the deficiencies in my playing and it bothers me to no end. Things aren't progressing as quickly as I would like and it just isn't in my blood to be patient.
So, was hoping to hear some stories from beginners (new and old) that I could relate to and help me feel not so bad about this. Also hoping perhaps a few good tips that could help speed up my progression might be gained in the process.
So my questions....
1. What has worked for you to stay motivated and less bummed out about sounding like crap? (certainly you have all been there at some point -- please, please, please say yes!)
2. What one tip would give a beginner to help them improve? Something you may have learned or discovered over time that helped things click.
Thanks to all of you for taking the time to respond. I enjoy reading all the posts. The knowledge distributed here invaluable and the banter is sometimes just downright entertaining. Thanks again!
# Posted on January 3rd 2008 by frauschmittle
Re: tips for a beginner and motivational words of encouragement
One thing I have found that may help one improve is something I have learned from 5+ years of on and off studies of Martial Arts:
"You will fall--and you learn to get up again"
# Posted on January 3rd 2008 by Seamus DAngelo
Re: tips for a beginner and motivational words of encouragement
1. Relax, you haven't been playing that long. Don't compare yourself to others. A drawback of having great recordings so easily accessible, people today have a reference point that is set quite high. Yes, listen to great recordings, but strive for the best tone you can get, in your space, in your time.
2. keep playing, relax your arms and shoulders, do what your teacher tells you. Improvise with some free form stuff, play open strings, getting the tone you like, move to adding fingers... fall in love with the sound you can get playing simple figures.
then...
play, play, and play some more
# Posted on January 3rd 2008 by Wyogal
Re: tips for a beginner and motivational words of encouragement
You've already cracked the biggest problem - you can actually hear the deficiencies in your own playing. Some people never achieve that.
The two biggest milestones that stuck out for me were the first time I lost the tune and managed to regain it without having to wait for the beginning of the A part, and the first time I played a tune which I hadn't learned beforehand, played it by ear without thinking about it and it came out right. In both cases there was a real sense of "now I'm finally getting somewhere".
My best advice is to keep learning as many tunes as possible, and once you are comfortable playing in company to play with as many different people as possible. Each one teaches you something different and all those little pieces add up in the long run.
Keep plugging away,
Eno
# Posted on January 3rd 2008 by bc_box_player
Re: tips for a beginner and motivational words of encouragement
Play every day, even if just for a little while. Regular daily practice is more important than total number of hours per week.
Look for small improvements, not big leaps.
"Step by step, walk the thousand-mile road." --The Book of Five Rings, by Miyamoto Musashi.
# Posted on January 3rd 2008 by John Galt
Re: tips for a beginner and motivational words of encouragement
I have three tips.
Play with others who can tolerate someone who is learning.
Play a tune many times through at a go.
Listen to someone with talent play a tune at speed before you attempt to learn it.
When I was just starting out, I played all alone. I performed for myself. I sounded dreadful. After several years of the same, I was dragged almost unwillingly to a group practice for a band that plays for dancers. I was way too slow and could hardly get a note in as the tunes flew by. Even so, I was invited back again and again. They said that the band rule was that no one would criticize a person for playing a wrong note, but they had better be on the beat. I learned from this to speed up my practices. Repetition, memorization, and some technique helped with speed.
I used to have dozens of tunes I wanted to learn. I'd try to practice them all. Inevitably, I'd practice too many and learn too few. I now practice few tunes many times. Much better.
When I am unmotivated, I'll roll a die to determine how many times to play a tune. Sometimes I won't have warmed up to a tune yet and I haven't admitted it to myself. Playing it 4 to 6 times through would yield a better understanding of the tune and I'll actually enjoy it by the 3rd time through. The lack of motivation problem will suddenly be solved. If I get a 1, I'll play it once and move on. This makes the practice unpredictable and less monotonous.
Sometimes I think I know a tune and then I hear it on whistles and the heart and soul of the tune are revealed. I go back to practicing and try to capture that same feeling. It could be I've stressed the wrong notes or botched the rhythm.
I hope this works. Good luck.
# Posted on January 3rd 2008 by abuteague
Re: tips for a beginner and motivational words of encouragement
Well, I've been learning fiddle for a year & a half and I'm still frustrated! How's that for motivation! Ha!
You're taking lessons, that's good. Practice as much as you can, every day. Probably the thing that motivates me the most is any tiny improvement I can see from week to week, month to month. You'll see things like your fourth finger getting stronger, your intonation getting better, your hands relaxing more---every little thing is something to be happy about because it all builds on itself and eventually you'll be sounding better. It's really kind of fun when you pick up a tune you couldn't play six months ago and now it's easy! And that *will* happen---as long as you don't give up!
I wonder if you might be pushing yourself a little hard---you're *supposed* to sound horrible at three months! I'm guilty of the same thing, though---on the one hand, it doesn't seem rational to constantly struggle to do something you're not yet capable of doing, but on the other hand, the size of the challenge and the great desire to play well is where the motivation lies.
So no great and wise answers from me, unfortunately. Keep at it and come here with questions---there are some amazing people on this board who will give you the best advice.
# Posted on January 3rd 2008 by kennedy
Re: tips for a beginner and motivational words of encouragement
My answers, from another adult beginner,
1. When I'd been playing for two months, at about the same stage you're at now, frauschmittle, I too despaired of ever learning to play the instrument properly. In a moment of frustration, I picked up a blank cassette tape and tape recorder, and recorded myself playing a polka that had been giving me grief. That became a ritual: every week, I randomly select ten tunes to record myself playing. I now focus not on playing *well*, but on playing *better* than I did before, and having changed my focus in that way, I can relax and enjoy the ride. (My standards are not only high, they're constantly in flux; a year and a half ago I'd have been delighted to be able to play as well as I play now, but over the past year and a half I've also become a lot pickier. A few months ago, my teacher asked me what I wanted to work on. "Nothing sounds the way I want it to," I lamented, and he replied, matter-of-factly, "Well, that never changes.") At the end of every week I compare my new recordings to ones I made a few months earlier. In moments when I wonder if my intonation will ever be acceptable, or if I'll ever nail every triplet I attempt, I can draw upon some physical documentation that confirms that my intonation used to be a lot worse and I'd once smudged every single triplet I tried.
2. My main tip: one thing at a time. If you're working on intonation, for instance, forget your tone, your rhythm and your bowing for the meantime. You can put everything together later. Easier said than done, mind you, for me anyway: I know my tunes holistically, and once I lose the beat I often lose the tune. I've spent the past few weeks really working on intonation, and it's been necessary for me work on tunes note by note, sloooowly. If I'm dead set on maintaining the beat, I'll be letting a lot of bum notes pass just in order to keep time. Which I'll do at sessions, or when specifically working on my rhythm - but if I want to iron out my intonation, that has to be my singular focus.
# Posted on January 3rd 2008 by Tall, Dark, and Mysterious
Re: tips for a beginner and motivational words of encouragement
Ooh, yeah, one thing at a time, that's a good one. That helped me relax my bowing arm. For two whole weeks, that's all I did, I forgot about intonation, learning tunes, ornaments, everything---all I did was stare at my right arm and made sure it didn't move back and forth. And that did it. Of course, I sounded like I was back to strangling small animals, but that went away after a while. I think.
# Posted on January 3rd 2008 by kennedy
Re: tips for a beginner and motivational words of encouragement
I have been playing fiddle for around 4 years, and what you are saying sounds oh so familiar. Hang in there, it does get better.
I think that once you have the basics of how to hold the instrument, a lot of the details will work themselves out over time as you make conscious and unconscious incremental adjustments to how you play. I think this is try for your left hand (dexterity, intonation, etc).
I think it is also often true for repertoire.
But I think that this gradual improvement scenario is _not_ the case, at least for many or most players, when it comes to right hand issues -- they will _not_ somehow just work themselves out. If you learn bad technique in your bowing, you will likely have to put in a bunch of effort later on to "uproot" this bad technique and try to put the proper technique in its place. And I can assure that having to do this is irritating and frustrating! So my tip to you would be to put particular focus on bowing at this stage in your fiddle career.
.
# Posted on January 3rd 2008 by timmy!
Re: tips for a beginner and motivational words of encouragement
It's normal to feel like you're not making progress, the fiddle has a high begginer's curve. It's good that you can hear areas that might need improvement. You need to make an honest list of those shortcomings. The things you should work on are intonation timing & tone.
I was just practicing an old technique I haven't used in years where I take a digital chromatic tuner & play through a tune at a slow pace & make sure that every note is in tune. It was harder than I thought - there are certain notes I was playing consistently out of tune. It's a very good exercise for intonation.
For timing use something like the amazing slowdowner & play along with a tune at a slow tempo & make sure that your giving the right notes emphasis. Not so much in volume but more in timing to give it the right lift.
Bear with me on this - In a jig a measure is made up two sets of three notes. The first note is held for about twice as long as the third note which is about twice as long as the second. so if you break the first three notes into sixteenths they would be grouped as roughly a dotted eigth a sixteenth then an eighth. Same goes for the fourth fifth & sixth notes. Now this is completely open for debate & not set in stone, many prefer a less syncopated feel but it will help to get some lift into your music. (I know Jeremy hates abc in discussion) please forgive me, but the first measure of Banish Misfortune would by played more like this f>dc B>AG. Also a note on bowing, although this is open for debate & depends on style, I found a general rule of thumb is to slur (not change bow direction) when going into the first & fourth (& seventh for a slip jig) notes of a jig and changing directions going into the 2nd & 3rd notes.
For reels try to play the 1st 3rd 5th & 7th notes of each bar a little longer & a little louder. Same for hornpipes. Listening to good fiddle players can help you sort out exactly the difference, hornpipes are not simply slow reels. One other bowing tip for hornpipes is to make sure the triplets are indeed triplets (three notes in the time of two) and no matter how much work bow every note - don't slur them all together.
Tone is more & less complicated - if you've got a good grip on your bow & are holding the instrument right you'll get as much tone out of your fiddle as it has to offer. If you have a thin nasally instrument it doesn't matter on your technique, you will hit a limit in how good you can make it sound. That being said, an expensive fiddle doesn't always guarantee a tone of gold. Above all if you haven't had your fiddle 'set up' do so immediately I've heard $100 ebay fiddles that had bad tone sound like gold with the right set up. It's not a guarantee but I've never heard it do any damage. A good bow is worth it too, I know more than one fiddler who's bow cost much more than their instrument & how happy they were after with the results of a well balanced bow.
Way too much advice, but these are things I wish someone had told me in the early days of my cat-scratchery.
# Posted on January 3rd 2008 by B Rad
Re: tips for a beginner and motivational words of encouragement
Oh yeah, for god's sake don't go for speed. That'll come later & only mess you up in the short run.
# Posted on January 3rd 2008 by B Rad
Re: tips for a beginner and motivational words of encouragement
Martin Hayes says that fiddlers have to have a great fantasy life because otherwise they could never bear the time and effort it takes to sound as good in reality as they imagine the fiddle should sound.
The two most important things to focus on are rhythm and tone. In Irish fiddling, not much else matters, by comparison. So no matter how many elements of fiddling you're trying to learn (tunes, intonation, bowing, fingering, cuts and rolls, etc.), make sure that you're working as much or more on developing a steady beat (in all the time signatures) and a clear, strong tone.
And in terms of *how* you learn, the most important thing is to go slow. Don't try to play faster than your fingers and bow hand and brain can manage. Speed comes with time and years of repetition.
Listen to other fiddlers whose playing you admire. Listen closely and deeply, trying to suss out every nuance, as well as the phrasing, timing, and overall shape of tunes. Listen, listen, listen. Play a lot. And make sure that it's really ***play*** Don't grind the music out, but lift it from the strings.
Enjoy it!
# Posted on January 3rd 2008 by Will Harmon
Re: tips for a beginner and motivational words of encouragement
1. You know, no idea. How did I ever survive those days of ew-y? I should know, since they still pop up at least 6 days a week, after 3 years or so. I guess you just...play through them. When you better up and level off a bit, you can at least say, "Well, I stopped absolutely FAILING on that two-string jump", and it works.
2. Probably the single-best experience I had for improving my playing was to round up all my old, old recordings and just say, "I'm going to learn a tune a day from these old albums." I was hearing so much intonation and ornamentation and MUSIC that it just...clicked? Before I knew it, Padraig o'Keeffe was my homeboy.
--DtM
# Posted on January 3rd 2008 by Dan the Man
Re: tips for a beginner and motivational words of encouragement
It takes a long time. Don't expect too much yet, but just keep going. It's as simple as that.
# Posted on January 3rd 2008 by lestow
Re: tips for a beginner and motivational words of encouragement
frustration: the feeling you get when you're ready to move to the next level on your instrument (this is from a beginning harmonica book). I've been playing music for 20 years and I still need this to get me through rough patches. No kidding.
# Posted on January 3rd 2008 by roof312
Re: tips for a beginner and motivational words of encouragement
work overtime on a couple of simple, fun tunes.Any time you feel the wheels spinning, go back to these old friends and belt 'em out.
This only helps a little bit, but it feels good and one day when you're a hundred years old you will be able to do this with all of them. (Theory)
# Posted on January 3rd 2008 by mcknowall
Re: tips for a beginner and motivational words of encouragement
Man this is me all over.
I was the very same when I started.. still am.
The best advice i can give is the hardest for an impatient person to follow.... practice SLOWLY. play a tune really slowly concentrating on intonation and crisp ornamentation. it will pay off loads. You will progress much quicker if you take your time. I didnt believe it until i tried.
HAVE FUN
# Posted on January 3rd 2008 by session savage
Re: tips for a beginner and motivational words of encouragement
1 Take pleasure from every improvement, no matter how small.
2 I've been learning about 2 years, and having lessons for 1 year. I find that one lesson a month suits me much better than would one a week. Each one hour lesson always gives me plenty of ideas to work on for the next month, and after a month my teacher is pretty much always able to identify significant progress in my playing. I also prefer a longer lesson, an hour or sometimes a bit longer.
3 On intonation: for the third finger finger note you should be able to hear resonance with the string below (eg D on the A string should start the D string vibrating). You should also be able to see that the resonating strung is vibrating.
# Posted on January 3rd 2008 by Theo Gibb
Re: tips for a beginner and motivational words of encouragement
I remember the hardest thing I had to cope with was the dreadful headaches I was giving myself.
I don't believe motivation is an issue. Motivation is simply desire. If you are having trouble with motivation, you just don't desire it enough.
I think you already nailed the biggest tip I could give. And that is to listen very very carefully to your self all the time. Hard, I know, especially when it's such a god awful din.
"The biggest problem I am facing is frustration because I can hear the deficiencies in my playing and it bothers me to no end". Just try not to think of this as a problem, but as your solution. The more your deficiancies bother you, the sooner you'll overcome them.
# Posted on January 3rd 2008 by ...
Re: tips for a beginner and motivational words of encouragement
Well great advice all, though I would disagree with theo, I think that one lesson a month is lamentably few, perhaps later on but at the beginning the most important factor is avoiding ingraining errors in your daily practice. If you practice really hard dailly, but practicing a bad habit, you will then have to undo this habit, if someone spots it.
] ; but who in their right mind gets lessons every day!?
Its like setting a course, 1 degree error at the begining can lead you a thousand miles astray without correction.
Twice weekly is the sensible minimum.
But the important factor is a good coach. I say coach, because there are two approaches to teaching, the teacher sets you a task, after you accomplish this they mark it and set you another.
A coach on the other hand will analyse your form looking for mistakes, then sets you remedial exercises.
Acombination approach is best.
With daily lessons each lesson focuses on a much smaller aspect of your playing, after one week you will have moved on systematically.
I can hear people saying [voices in my head?
My answer is ; dedicated people, who are prepared, and able to focus, people who dont go to the pub, but to their lessons. They know what they want, and they know how to get it.
So the Ideal; daily lessons from a world class master.
For the rest of us, what ever we can get.
Dont look for progress. Accept that it will come slowly. If you are not the patient type then are you really the right type for the fiddle?. If you want to play the fiddle you had better learn to be patient!
Id second kennedys advice.
I liked the bit about rolling the dice, but would suggest a slight modification; use two.
# Posted on January 3rd 2008 by piobagusfidil
Re: tips for a beginner and motivational words of encouragement
Or three!
# Posted on January 3rd 2008 by piobagusfidil
Re: tips for a beginner and motivational words of encouragement
Yes, playing one tune over and over can be good. But right from the start get into the habit of stringing tunes together. Play all the jigs you know, back to back, and in different orders. And the same with your reels.
# Posted on January 3rd 2008 by ...
Re: tips for a beginner and motivational words of encouragement
and take time to practiceslowly...at our session this past week there were some folks in from out of town who played some great tunes..stuff I did not know, so I spent most of my time recording and listening and enjoying the tunes...
but the 15 year old fiddler played everything so Cleanly and relaxed, while still getting lift and cutting and rolling and everything that one would want, without being showy or adding stuff that the tune did not need...I was impressed by that, so now I am focused on playing slowly and more clean.
# Posted on January 3rd 2008 by Sunnybear
Re: tips for a beginner and motivational words of encouragement
Keep listening.
Keep playing, especially with others.
Remember you will have good days (when you think 'Great I'm getting somewhere' ) and bad days (when you think 'I'll never get the hang of this').
That's the only words of wisdom I can offer, after 4 years of mainly 'self taught' learning.
# Posted on January 3rd 2008 by minijackpot
Re: tips for a beginner and motivational words of encouragement
Thanks for this terrific question! -- and for the great responses and advice. I think it's good for fiddlers to hear how others approach learning. And, at least for me, learning never seems to stop.
One thing I'll mention:
Sometimes it's best to be more analytical and less emotional about the progress you're making. If you're getting daily practice, you'll be fine. And the farther along you get, the better you'll become at figuring out what you should be working on to improve.
In other words, "I sound lousy" is an emotional response -- I know that feeling, believe me -- but the question should then be "Why?" And that can lead to you getting a better understanding of your own playing. Don't be afraid to put the fiddle down, walk away, and then think about it. Sometimes the best learning takes place away from the instrument.
Take lessons as long as you can, but ultimately you should become your own teacher. Don't be surprised if your teacher asks you, "What do *you* think you should be working on?"
# Posted on January 3rd 2008 by Jmbu
Re: tips for a beginner and motivational words of encouragement
I did not learn as an adult and I don't know if this will be helpful... But I would think it would help.
You might be looking to sound "good" too early. Most people sound pretty bad for the first 3-5 years they play. Wait until you've been doing it for 5 years without progress before you decide you are behind the curve.
# Posted on January 3rd 2008 by glenn
Re: tips for a beginner and motivational words of encouragement
An aside; Its interesting, Apparantly, playing for sets it was common practice to play one tune for each figure. For example, according to Micheal Tubridy, Mrs Crotty would, when playing solo, rarely string two tunes together.
Allthough it is common practice now, let us remember it was not allways thus. is this an example of the recording process influencing the artistic decisions?
Sorry, back to the subject; Scales, Scales, arpegios, and patterns. play them lots till your intonation is good. Then start playing tunes and parts of tunes.
# Posted on January 3rd 2008 by piobagusfidil
Re: tips for a beginner and motivational words of encouragement
I was very much the same as you when I began. I hate being bad at things, and so that was motivation to get better in its own right. I got dragged to sessions by my ex, and I couldn't keep up, which p*ssed me off even more, and made me work really hard at getting better. People at the sessions were ultra encouraging - even to the point where I felt like I was being patronized, because I could hear how bad I was, but they were all saying that I was sounding great (relatively speaking).
Listen to as much Irish music as you can, as well as listening to yourself. If you can truly internalize the feel of the music, it will be easier for you to emulate it. And when you listen to yourself play, try to identify what parts of it don't sound the same (besides the speed, of course).
While it's good to keep learning new tunes, it's also important to work hard on the ones you already know. It's more important to be able to play your tunes *well*, rather than to be able to play a million tunes. If there's one tune that you've absorbed well, and have pretty much down pat, you can use that tune to work on ornamentation, swing, lift, and speed, because you have to expend less brain power worrying about what individual notes you're playing.
Try recording yourself playing a single tune, and then take a week or two of pushing yourself pretty hard to work on the various bits of that tune, and then record yourself again and compare the two. You will be amazed at how much progress you can make in the course of a week, and it's encouraging to be able to actually hear the difference in recordings, because you can't judge your progress very well in your head as it is happening.
And if you're feeling burned out, give it a rest for a bit. If it's not fun, there's less chance that you're going to stick with it.
# Posted on January 3rd 2008 by Reverend
Re: tips for a beginner and motivational words of encouragement
The most successful fitness / weight loss / 12-step / AA / "quit smoking" programs all rely on the buddy system. When I was beginning my journey into this music (and it is a journey not a destination) it sure helped to have a few friends of similar skill sets to learn with. We encouraged each other, pushed each other and learned tunes much faster than if we had done it on our own.
# Posted on January 3rd 2008 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: tips for a beginner and motivational words of encouragement
"Scales, Scales, arpegios, and patterns. play them lots till your intonation is good. Then start playing tunes and parts of tunes."
Since tunes are entirely made from scales, arpegios and patterns, the logic of playing scales, arpegios and patterns before you start playing tunes and parts of tunes escapes me.
# Posted on January 3rd 2008 by ...
Re: tips for a beginner and motivational words of encouragement
This is a great discussion. I, also, took up the fiddle last October. I play the box and decided I needed more punishment. I almost gave up after the second lesson, as it sounded so brutal, but having a great teacher has been wonderful. Encouragement is everything even when you know you suck. Fortunately things have improved, even if just at a snail's pace and I have learned not to expect miracles. Now that my neck doesn't kill me from the death hold grip I had on the fiddle, I'm starting to relax and enjoy the challenge of this amazing instrument. I have great respect for those who play the fiddle well. Learning to play a couple of tunes well is my goal for now. Hang in there!
Heather
# Posted on January 3rd 2008 by boxielady
Re: tips for a beginner and motivational words of encouragement
It's a complex instrument - keep your expectations realistic. You have a big down payment to make on the price of that complexity. As you start to get things under control you'll find you have a lot more options than with an instrument that does most of the work for you. It will continue to dole out rewards as you jump the hurdles, which is what keeps it interesting for you in the long run.
2 - budget your practice time: don't spend much time on what you are already capable of doing. Warm up on that stuff to get your head in gear, then move on.
# Posted on January 3rd 2008 by monkey440
Re: tips for a beginner and motivational words of encouragement
and I will add, start learning a tune by ear as soon as you can..jigs seem easier to me to pick up..or a polka..but start by ear...the sooner the better and leaning this way is as learned as anything else
# Posted on January 3rd 2008 by Sunnybear
Re: tips for a beginner and motivational words of encouragement
On this ... "Scales, Scales and arpegios" question ... I was a self taught guitar player of some 30 years experience before I picked up a fiddle for the first time 2 years ago. Having a prior knowldege of scales and arpegio's from my guitar playing days has helped me immensely in learning tunes. If we accept that the best way to learn this style music is by ear then having a basic knowledge of scales and the patterns must serve as the basic building block upon which to learn the tunes.
My top tips are be a sponge. Play with other people. Watch them, listen to them and soak up as much as you can. Listen to CD's, or Mp3's, play everyday and go to as many workshops, gigs and sessions as you can.
# Posted on January 3rd 2008 by Jon_bailey
Re: tips for a beginner and motivational words of encouragement
the logic of playing scales etc before tunes is that you are isolating aspects of a whole for focusing upon. The scale is simple , the tunes more complicated, once the simple part is accomplished [ walking] then the more complicated part is approachable [running]
Attempting to run before you can walk is not a system generally recomended.
I hasten to add this is but one aspect of the generous gifts recieved from scale practice.
# Posted on January 3rd 2008 by piobagusfidil
Re: tips for a beginner and motivational words of encouragement
Nice advice here. Relax. Remember why you are doing what you are doing and stay focused on that. Compare what you are doing with others-God knows you learn something from everyone you hear. But don't expect to be there. Be realistic.
My ITM teacher-a virtuoso musician in his own right- said when he was learing jazz piano, he became frustrated because there was a passage from Oscar Peterson that eluded him. A pianist freind reminded him that Mr. Peterson was the regular guy at Mr. Kelly's in Chicago night after night for years. You are not going to make up all that playing time-no way, no how- when you are just starting out. That's the advice he gave me when I was 'hitting the wall' as it were. We all do.
I differ on how to handle the practice though. When you are starting, some parts of a tune you will get. Others won't come as easy.
Spend more time on the hard parts than the parts that come easy. Work on them in 7 to 9 note "chunks". Then work them to flow with the parts you know. Forget the speed. Concentrate on rhythm. Also, don't do long practice sessions-multiple hours.
Your brain is a bit of a sponge and needs time to absorb what you are trying to learn. My sweetie, Herself, is a well respected teacher. She is adamant that learning sessions be relatively short and then take time to rest. Kids she says can only go 20-25 minutes to a learning session. Older farts like me can go longer. But most literature on this suggest 45 minutes is tops.
Some give a rule of thumb for learning time as your age plus 5 (say you are 40, your practice should be 45 minutes). but 45 minutes is usually a max. Then a minimum 15 minute break away from the instrument-listen to music, get a cup of tea.
I am finding the approach productive even if it sounds like educational voodoo. Particularly the 'chunking'
I with whoever said you are already making progress because you are not satisfied and are frustrated. You know that you want to get better.
Regards and best of luck
# Posted on January 3rd 2008 by zippydw
Re: tips for a beginner and motivational words of encouragement
Oscar Peterson just passed away 12/23/07... His legacy is going to leave a lot of pianists frustrated.
I used to be in the "scales and arpeggios" camp but in retrospect, I think I devoted a lot more time to them than was really required - despite being told not to worry about it so much. You need a good foundation, but most of it can been picked up with the instrument still in the case. If you thoroughly understand the concepts, the exact mechanics of producing them (bowings/fingerings/shifting) isn't so mysterious. It's more important to be able to pick apart the tunes and harmonies and understand why they work than to be able to execute the underlying scales/arpeggios with absolute precision. You can drill the tunes themselves for the technique you need if you understand this. Then you not only have the core technique down, you get quite a few tunes under your belt as well.
# Posted on January 4th 2008 by monkey440
Re: tips for a beginner and motivational words of encouragement
Curious, monkey, how are you with Improvisation? Say swing, or spanish, or just jamming in with other singers etc?
Scales are the key to this stuff too, understanding the chords,and key/s listening/learning by ear.
Of course you could be right, perhaps you can spend too much time on scales and exercises, not that I have , still struggling with Fluency in the higher positions, double stops in 3rds, fifths,sixths ,etc. Ahh, one day1
Of course they are exercises/steps towards actually playing music, and there is no doubt that playing the music is the aim, but lets be clear, we want to play the music well, not scratchy, out of tune , slack, rhythm-less stuff, but the real deal.. If you cant play first position scales with beautifull tone, and precise rhythm what hope have you of playing a tune with these qualities?
# Posted on January 4th 2008 by piobagusfidil
Re: tips for a beginner and motivational words of encouragement
Michael a écrit:
"Since tunes are entirely made from scales, arpegios and patterns, the logic of playing scales, arpegios and patterns before you start playing tunes and parts of tunes escapes me."
Bullseye and amen to that. Scales, arpeggios and the like are the number one reason for kids dropping out of playing instruments. They are anti-fun, and if you want to play ITM you want to play for fun first and foremost. The world tour can come later.
# Posted on January 4th 2008 by Steve Shaw
Re: tips for a beginner and motivational words of encouragement
Get a teacher and/or Book 1 of Suzuki.
Get a mirror and watch your bowing in that, try to keep it at 90 degrees to the strings - looks like + - and try to keep the bow hair flat on the strings as well as midway between the bridge and end of fingerboard
Next do that type practice but with a metronome. Begin at slow tempos and increase each time around your bowing exercises.
Next learn to put a pulse into your bowing by stopping and starting the bow again IN THE SAME DIRECTION either up or down.
When you can bow well and keep good time with the metronome, you will be ready to begin learning the folk fiddle.
Take simple tunes to start, eg those you hear in your locality, Mazurkas, Waltzes - ie tunes you already know by ear.
Next get " The Irish Fiddle" by Matt Cranitch Pub Ossian Cork Ireland and the two CDs. From there begin to slowly acquire tunes and bowings.
# Posted on January 4th 2008 by Schlongbow
Re: tips for a beginner and motivational words of encouragement
I don't buy the walk before you can run analogy. I don't buy it that tunes are harder to play than scales. Technically, they are the same thing.
Try looking at it this way: Playing scales is like learning to run on one of those treadmill things in your bedroom. You start by walking, set the thing a little faster and learn to walk a bit faster. Then you learn to jump in between steps and pretty soon you're jogging along nicely. Except you are still in your bedroom.
# Posted on January 4th 2008 by ...
Re: tips for a beginner and motivational words of encouragement
>Curious, monkey, how are you with Improvisation? Say swing, or spanish, or just jamming in with other singers etc?
Played a lot of bass in my teen+years - nearly all of it improv. About half of that swing/bop. The violin took a back seat for a while. I eventually grew tired of dealing with bar smoke, drums, & amps and revisited classical violin full time for several years and then meandered into bluegrass and western swing. ITM is a whole other universe
# Posted on January 4th 2008 by monkey440
Re: tips for a beginner and motivational words of encouragement
"Played a lot of bass in my teen+years "
I saw that, totally misinterpreted it, and thought, Oh yeah! Play the bass a lot, so you can get comfortable with fingerings in all octaves, all across the instrument. It will really help you understand the strings, the finger positions, their relationships, keys and modes, that kind of stuff. It's a really practical exercise in harmony and theory.
--DtM
# Posted on January 4th 2008 by Dan the Man
Re: tips for a beginner and motivational words of encouragement
''I don't buy the walk before you can run analogy. I don't buy it that tunes are harder to play than scales. Technically, they are the same thing''
Pull the other one Llig!
Each tune is different , each scale is different, some tunes even use more than one scale, A statement like that is complete nonesense. You say you dont practice, you seem to think scales are pointless, I really begin to wonder quite what it is you do? You do play tunes and stuff yes? I mean, you actually play an instrument right? Sometimes I begin to wonder!
# Posted on January 4th 2008 by piobagusfidil
Re: tips for a beginner and motivational words of encouragement
Yes, each tune is different , each scale is different. Notice I said tunes and scales (plural). Tunes and scales and arpegios etc are strings of notes. Any way, we both know it's pointless having an argument about it.
# Posted on January 4th 2008 by ...
Re: tips for a beginner and motivational words of encouragement
Yea Im sorry, I think I was a bit tetchy, lack of sleep and all that.
Still, if you havnt done your scales then how do you know what you say is true?> Because it isnt.
# Posted on January 4th 2008 by piobagusfidil
Re: tips for a beginner and motivational words of encouragement
There is a great book by Kenny Werner called "Effortless Mastery" that is all about overcoming that exact feeling of frustration. My favourite quote from it is: "You are NOT lazy, you are overwhelmed".
His basic idea is you take a TINY piece of music (even, literally 2 or 3 notes) and you play it over and over and over until it is completely unconcious and easy-ie you have MASTERED it. So by definition YOU are now a master. All that is left is to gradually expand the range of your mastery.
# Posted on January 5th 2008 by hakanozel
Re: tips for a beginner and motivational words of encouragement
Another thing someone said to me once which is true from my experience: Learning an instrument is a process of alternately going UP slopes and ACROSS plateaus. The plateaus are the points where you keep practising but seem to make no progress. The key is this: that its actually these plateaus where most of the learning is being done; the points at which you are ascending are merely the RESULT of the dry stretches.
# Posted on January 5th 2008 by hakanozel
Re: tips for a beginner and motivational words of encouragement
One final thought: when you have been learning for just one day, by the end of Day 2 you will be twice as good! However, when you have been playing 6 months, it takes 6 months to get twice as good! So if you feel your progress is slowing down its actually a good sign that you must have quite a lot of knowledge under your belt.
Hope all this helps, let us know how you get on.
# Posted on January 5th 2008 by hakanozel
Re: tips for a beginner and motivational words of encouragement
"Scales, Scales, arpegios, and patterns. play them lots till your intonation is good. Then start playing tunes and parts of tunes."
Since tunes are entirely made from scales, arpegios and patterns, the logic of playing scales, arpegios and patterns before you start playing escapes me.
quote from llig leachim.
imo,playing scales and arpeggios is logical,and is very good practice,particuarly if the student,uses the scales and arpeggios to practise different bowing slurs,
try the scale of eight notes in paired bowing,then slur, three ,three two.or any other combinations..
arpeggios are particuarly good for practising slurring across strings.
practice major scales, mixolydian modes,Dorian modes and aoelian,as they are the ones that crop up, frequently in itm.
Dick Miles
# Posted on January 5th 2008 by Dick Miles
Re: tips for a beginner and motivational words of encouragement
Dick,
Would you ever play two bars of a reel, 8 notes, slurring every second note? Why practice it? Why not practice where you would slur? Why not give a beginner the first part of drowsy maggie to play single bowed and then combinations of slurring across the strings. Then get them to play it with the open D string instead of the third finger of the A string, single bowing and combinations of slurring.
What would the exercises you give above do that my exercise wouldn't?
# Posted on January 5th 2008 by ...
Re: tips for a beginner and motivational words of encouragement
You'd all better listen to Michael on this. He is absolutely spot-on. He's a prize pillock, but he's spot-on, and not for the first time either. D-:
# Posted on January 5th 2008 by Steve Shaw
Re: tips for a beginner and motivational words of encouragement
# Posted on January 5th 2008 by Steve Shaw
Re: tips for a beginner and motivational words of encouragement
What you suggest is a valid exercise Llig, though i guess you mean the second part. No one is suggesting otherwise.
However It is an exercise, like scales, arpegio, etc they are not tunes, though parts may well crop up in tunes. Exercises suchas Dick's, who is not jig, are valuable not so much as whether someone would play a reel like that, but that they could if they wanted to.
''There is a great book by Kenny Werner called "Effortless Mastery" that is all about overcoming that exact feeling of frustration. My favourite quote from it is: "You are NOT lazy, you are overwhelmed".
His basic idea is you take a TINY piece of music (even, literally 2 or 3 notes) and you play it over and over and over until it is completely unconcious and easy-ie you have MASTERED it. So by definition YOU are now a master. All that is left is to gradually expand the range of your mastery.@'
That is so true,.
Fofr example; In playing a scale you have to first get past the first few notes with out a mistake. there is little point in practising a scale if it is out of tune! Playing a 2 octave scale is a feat in itself. I can tell you I was delighted when I first achieved that aim, absolutely beaming.
Some scales are easy, some are damn hard. try a 3 octave scale in thirds! Boring huh? I wish.
# Posted on January 5th 2008 by piobagusfidil
Re: tips for a beginner and motivational words of encouragement
lig leachim,please quote me correctly.
I did notsay that.
paired bowing can be used in combination with seperates,in polkas, [along with three slurs] in jigs,in hornpipes again with other combinations,and occasionally in reels in combination with others Slurs and seperates
The original poster has only been having half hour lessons for three months,I doubt if he is yet ready for Drowsy Maggie.
Matt Crannitch Irish Fiddle,is a carefully graded tutor which I suggest he buys
,in this carefully graded tutor on page 34 an exercise of the major scale,in paired bowing occurs ,along with other exercises using slurred and seperates,on page 66 slurred paired along with seperate bowing is discussed in relation to polkas.
it is not until PAGE 86,that Drowsy Maggie and its bowing is discussed.
In answer to your last question,it will increase the pupils knowledge of the fingerboard ,and intonation to practise different modes and major scales.
your advice is not spot on,youare not the pupils teacher,you do not know how far they have progressed,neither do I.
But my advice is based on the Cranitch tutor,and the more reasonable assumption that after two months they have not progressed to be ready for Drowsy Maggie.DickMiles
# Posted on January 5th 2008 by Dick Miles