When flatpicking leads on guitar for a jig, is there an established preference for the stroke pattern?
Reels generally alternate down-up-down-up (with some variation), but what about jigs? Down-up-down-down-up-down etc., as is the standard rhythm strum pattern, or do most lead guitarists use down-up-down-up-down-up as it is for reels?
Or something completely different?
Thanks for any help.
I play mostly mandolin now, but I played down-up-down for flat-picking jigs on guitar too. It's what I see played by the guitarist at the sessions I go to now as well. You'd want the same rhythm in melody playing as you would in backing. Though for variation, and especially with really fast jigs, this guitarist will not always back up with down-up-down strumming.
The down-up-down can be a bit tricky to execute strictly, I find. And if you hold your pick reasonably parallel to the strings (I know some players like to angle the pick a lot) there shouldn't be too much difference in tone between downstrokes and upstrokes anyway. I think there is too much emphasis on down-up-down - I mean, when do you ever see fiddlers playing down-up-down? It's hard enough flatpicking tunes without having some arbitrary pick direction rules.
So I tend to pick whichever direction comes naturally which for me is a combination of of sweep (or economy) picking and alternating. That is, when I go to a higher string (in pitch) I always use a downstroke. Otherwise I alternate. I don't know how I ended up picking that way - it just happened.
DUDUDU (the down up down stroke that I think you are talking about) vs. DUD DUD technique is always has legs. I just published an article in banjosessions on it in which I queried several well known banjo players (all of whom play guitar, too) to see what they had to say. Basically DUD DUD won out because no matter what you say, an upstroke does not sound like a down stroke unless your tone is so bad that no one can tell the difference.
Speaking of that, in a session it doesn't make much difference which method you use, you won't be heard anyway.
The DUD DUD "rule" is not arbitrary. In fact it really isn't a rule, just a strong suggestion as it is easier to get the lilt of a jig when you emphasize the first and fourth notes with a downstroke. It is not a hard technique to learn if you practice slowly at first and then speed it up. In the hands of a person with good tone, there is a very noticeable difference.
For the record, Tommy O'Sullivan and John Doyle seem to use DUD DUD when they play jigs.
Well I use DUD, UDU. As The first note of the 6 is the main beat. However there are so many exceptions, ie string crossing sometimes means 2 strings are picked both down or up. I also stick in arbitary 1/16 pairs instead of an 1/8th note, and triplets too which will interupt any pattern.. As a backer i play D-D, UDU as my basic jig rhythm. same on bodhran, guitar etc.
To conclude I feel that there is no hard and fast rule. the tune itself will dictate the most comfortable picking. Also on the guitar I will be putting in Low D 'drones' where appropriate, this may change the picking. I also may, if playing up the neck use sweep picking with no open strings, all down. The important thing is to accentuate the first note of the bar, this can be done in a number of ways, volume, string choice, lengthening the note etc.
I have a suix string banjo tunes as a guitar, so my guitar techniques can be heard in a session. aalso i play electric guitar in a trio, playing 'alternative' trad so again, no roblem with volume, though its of course not PC
"An upstroke does not sound like a down stroke unless your tone is so bad that no one can tell the difference"
Well, that's a matter of debate. I like to think my upstrokes will sound the same as my downstrokes (if I want them to) and don't consider that to be the product of bad tone. It may well be the case that some players pick deliberately in such a way that there ups and downs sound different. Too often, though, I just hear missing notes: no tone as opposed to bad tone.
And I'd still like to know why fiddlers don't play DUD DUD.
Actually, fiddlers do often use DUD DUD, slurring the Ds – playing two notes on one bow stroke/direction: | DU(D D)UD | DUD DU(D | D)UD DUD | -- both internally in a measure and across bar lines.
I broached this subject on mandolincafe which led to a fruitful discussion:
I've broken the url up so it doesn't stretch across the page - you'll need to cut & paste it together
I've come to the conclusion that DUD DUD isn't necessary all the time, (it will depend a lot on string crossing as "jig" says) but it's a technique that is worth trying to master .
I'm finding it difficult due to a lifetime of playing DUD UDU , but have made some pleasing progress.
First, banjos are easily played DUDUDU because they are so loud and a thin Dunlop .63 Nylon will impart enough energy to bring out a good tone. But it takes some technique to play so the U and D strokes sound alike. Even a six string banjo has that quality.
Second, guitars are quiet instrments when played as single string instruments (unless they are electric) and if played with a thin pick usually have a thin tone. When played on stage they have the advantage of a microphone/internal elements (or both) but even then are notoriously hard to set up properly.
Players like Tony Rice rely on a thick pick of specific materials to bring out the tone of the instrument and even then the volume is not so great that it doesn't get lost in a non-amplified jam or session setting.
If you use a thin pick, the U and D strokes will probably sound alike. I was just at a Liz Carroll/John Doyle concert and he did some single string work using his normal .63 pick (which works great for chord work on his well set up guitars) but in spite of all his technique, the tone was still thin - but loud because of the dual element and microphone setup he brings to the stage.
The same meme is true for mandolin and other double coursed instruments. The energy requirements for a good tone are much greater than for a banjo and more force is needed. In addition, the shape, material, stiffness and the thickness of a pick all make a difference in tone. Technique plays a great part in tone, especially finding the sweet spot in both the instrument and your arm and then being consistent and precise. It is not an easy thing to do without deliberately practicing it.
If you listen to a mandolin played with a thin flexible pick, you will hear thin tone and thin volume. The same instrument with a thicker stiffer pick will have much more complexity. That complexity is rich enough that if you vary your technique (such as changing from a down stroke to and up stroke - there are power differences with heavier picks) you will vary the way the instrument sounds. Alternatively, a thin pick's energy transfer is probably maxed out going either way for most of us so they tone is similar or the same. DUD DUD with a thin pick will not sound much different from DUDUDU assuming the power on 1 and 4 are close. In that case there is no need to be as precise or consistent.
can be nice when backing to just use all downs DDD DDD. then just vary where your putting emphasis.. on the 1 and 4 works well obviously as does the 4 and 6 together...gives great percussive effect..
dud dud for jigs,there is a hell of adifference in emphasis [in my opinion].du for reels,except when crossing strings when I prefer to use dd.
for polkas I prefer to start the main beat on an up,giving emphasis on a down for the off beat
fiddlers do use dud dud,but fiddlers have the advantage that they can do much more slurring,and thus have many more different combinations, they can slur three notes or slur two one[ddu]or [d uu],it is silly to compare picked string instruments to a fiddle.
I suppose I tend to be a pretty heavy guitar player and prefer to use a fairly heavy pick, at 0.93mm, for flatpicking (where I might use a lighter one for strumming - but I keep breaking my 0.56s) and so there doesn't tend to be much natural difference in emphasis between my Ds and Us. So I can play UDU with most of the emphasis on the first U or UDD with most of the emphasis on the U.
So if I was playing Charlie Hunter's I might pick |DFA GBd|Adf a2g| as |DUD UDD|UDD U D|. Weird, eh?
Silly to compare plectrum & bows... yeah, maybe. DonaldK was joking, I think - (or throwing down a gauntlet!) -- a diffficult technique, to lift and play two downstrokes with the bow, in time and at speed. I've heard it in Danish and Swedish music, very staccato and rough, to wonderful effect.
My concern with DUD, DUD would be that the 2nd triplet might sound too much like the first, becomeing in effect a fast waltz! Also this pattern, I Imagine would be much harder to consistantly perform. Once again I suggest the tune itself should dictate any pattern used. Which strings etc. Also, I will ellongate the first note of the bar to accentuate the jig rhythm and will accentuate the second triplet with a heavier stroke, even though it will be an up pick. I cant see any reason for this old dog to change now.
What about slip and single jig picking patterns? how would you's pick them?
I am a fingerpicker for both tunes and backing but can flatpick a tune too, and have to say I find there may be a lot of basic patterning in both finger and flatpick playing, but you can't be glued to it. Tunes will demand you break it now and again. there are places you'll do a little split second stop/pause/hold back in the tune, as a fiddler might, and then you may pick it up again doing the same down or up stroke twice in a row, which breaks the pattern.
It's the hardest thing to convey and teach to a guitar student, especially ones coming from folk music, particularly those used to backing their own singing. It's not the same ball game at all. Sure, You have to teach the basic picking for a jig, reel, whatever timing, yet the person has to learn to really listen to the tunes note for note, whether backing or tune playing, and not be so rigidly tied to a picking pattern.
You just listen, learn the melody and do as any other melody player would. You might draw out a note (on fiddle or winds easy enough, on guitar you may bend the string a bit to draw it out for example) . The drawing out of a note will always break the pattern, but that or the little stops and hesitations, the things that will break the pattern are what give the music its life, its emotion and feeling, its personality, lets the personality of the player come through. It gives the tunes its light and darks and lows and highs.Otherwise you may as well be typing on a typewriter hammering out notes in a repetitive pattern.
Once you learn the tune with your pattern, you can start then to deviate from it. Surely you notice at first, you pick it out note by note, and all the notes have the same timing, then once the tune is memorized you can start the deviations from the pattern, and that is really what makes the music wake up. Just my humble opinion here, but the music sounds better when there are little surprises in it all over the place. Once you know a tune well, you can really make those strings cry and laugh, be dark or lighthearted and all mixed into the same tune, that's what gives it life, and to do that you must be willing to drop the pattern here and there a little. Not so much that it doesn't make sense anymore, but used as a spice...that is good music.
Lead picking patterns for jigs on guitar
Lead picking patterns for jigs on guitar
When flatpicking leads on guitar for a jig, is there an established preference for the stroke pattern?
Reels generally alternate down-up-down-up (with some variation), but what about jigs? Down-up-down-down-up-down etc., as is the standard rhythm strum pattern, or do most lead guitarists use down-up-down-up-down-up as it is for reels?
Or something completely different?
Thanks for any help.
# Posted on December 18th 2007 by ayedbl
Re: Lead picking patterns for jigs on guitar
ayedbi,
I play mostly mandolin now, but I played down-up-down for flat-picking jigs on guitar too. It's what I see played by the guitarist at the sessions I go to now as well. You'd want the same rhythm in melody playing as you would in backing. Though for variation, and especially with really fast jigs, this guitarist will not always back up with down-up-down strumming.
# Posted on December 18th 2007 by Keith Dubinsky
Re: Lead picking patterns for jigs on guitar
The down-up-down can be a bit tricky to execute strictly, I find. And if you hold your pick reasonably parallel to the strings (I know some players like to angle the pick a lot) there shouldn't be too much difference in tone between downstrokes and upstrokes anyway. I think there is too much emphasis on down-up-down - I mean, when do you ever see fiddlers playing down-up-down? It's hard enough flatpicking tunes without having some arbitrary pick direction rules.
So I tend to pick whichever direction comes naturally which for me is a combination of of sweep (or economy) picking and alternating. That is, when I go to a higher string (in pitch) I always use a downstroke. Otherwise I alternate. I don't know how I ended up picking that way - it just happened.
# Posted on December 18th 2007 by DonaldK
Re: Lead picking patterns for jigs on guitar
That said, if I had a lot of repeated notes in a jig (like Paddy's Leather Breeches) I might use down-up-down.
# Posted on December 18th 2007 by DonaldK
Re: Lead picking patterns for jigs on guitar
DUDUDU (the down up down stroke that I think you are talking about) vs. DUD DUD technique is always has legs. I just published an article in banjosessions on it in which I queried several well known banjo players (all of whom play guitar, too) to see what they had to say. Basically DUD DUD won out because no matter what you say, an upstroke does not sound like a down stroke unless your tone is so bad that no one can tell the difference.
Speaking of that, in a session it doesn't make much difference which method you use, you won't be heard anyway.
The DUD DUD "rule" is not arbitrary. In fact it really isn't a rule, just a strong suggestion as it is easier to get the lilt of a jig when you emphasize the first and fourth notes with a downstroke. It is not a hard technique to learn if you practice slowly at first and then speed it up. In the hands of a person with good tone, there is a very noticeable difference.
For the record, Tommy O'Sullivan and John Doyle seem to use DUD DUD when they play jigs.
Mike Keyes
http://www.banjosessions.com
# Posted on December 18th 2007 by mikeyes
Re: Lead picking patterns for jigs on guitar
Well I use DUD, UDU. As The first note of the 6 is the main beat. However there are so many exceptions, ie string crossing sometimes means 2 strings are picked both down or up. I also stick in arbitary 1/16 pairs instead of an 1/8th note, and triplets too which will interupt any pattern.. As a backer i play D-D, UDU as my basic jig rhythm. same on bodhran, guitar etc.
so again, no roblem with volume, though its of course not PC
To conclude I feel that there is no hard and fast rule. the tune itself will dictate the most comfortable picking. Also on the guitar I will be putting in Low D 'drones' where appropriate, this may change the picking. I also may, if playing up the neck use sweep picking with no open strings, all down. The important thing is to accentuate the first note of the bar, this can be done in a number of ways, volume, string choice, lengthening the note etc.
I have a suix string banjo tunes as a guitar, so my guitar techniques can be heard in a session. aalso i play electric guitar in a trio, playing 'alternative' trad
# Posted on December 18th 2007 by jig
Re: Lead picking patterns for jigs on guitar
sorry, dodgy keyboard! that should have read '' I have a six string banjo tuned as a guitar' [dodgy two fingered typist as well]
# Posted on December 18th 2007 by jig
Re: Lead picking patterns for jigs on guitar
"An upstroke does not sound like a down stroke unless your tone is so bad that no one can tell the difference"
Well, that's a matter of debate. I like to think my upstrokes will sound the same as my downstrokes (if I want them to) and don't consider that to be the product of bad tone. It may well be the case that some players pick deliberately in such a way that there ups and downs sound different. Too often, though, I just hear missing notes: no tone as opposed to bad tone.
And I'd still like to know why fiddlers don't play DUD DUD.
# Posted on December 18th 2007 by DonaldK
Re: Lead picking patterns for jigs on guitar
Actually, fiddlers do often use DUD DUD, slurring the Ds – playing two notes on one bow stroke/direction: | DU(D D)UD | DUD DU(D | D)UD DUD | -- both internally in a measure and across bar lines.
# Posted on December 18th 2007 by fidkid
Re: Lead picking patterns for jigs on guitar
I broached this subject on mandolincafe which led to a fruitful discussion:
I've broken the url up so it doesn't stretch across the page - you'll need to cut & paste it together
http://www.mandolincafe.net/
cgi-bin/ikonboard.cgi?
s=eca3b25145a7bc744904917c95427664;
act=ST;f=5;t=46422;st=0
I've come to the conclusion that DUD DUD isn't necessary all the time, (it will depend a lot on string crossing as "jig" says) but it's a technique that is worth trying to master .
I'm finding it difficult due to a lifetime of playing DUD UDU , but have made some pleasing progress.
# Posted on December 18th 2007 by Bren
Re: Lead picking patterns for jigs on guitar
Two thoughts:
First, banjos are easily played DUDUDU because they are so loud and a thin Dunlop .63 Nylon will impart enough energy to bring out a good tone. But it takes some technique to play so the U and D strokes sound alike. Even a six string banjo has that quality.
Second, guitars are quiet instrments when played as single string instruments (unless they are electric) and if played with a thin pick usually have a thin tone. When played on stage they have the advantage of a microphone/internal elements (or both) but even then are notoriously hard to set up properly.
Players like Tony Rice rely on a thick pick of specific materials to bring out the tone of the instrument and even then the volume is not so great that it doesn't get lost in a non-amplified jam or session setting.
If you use a thin pick, the U and D strokes will probably sound alike. I was just at a Liz Carroll/John Doyle concert and he did some single string work using his normal .63 pick (which works great for chord work on his well set up guitars) but in spite of all his technique, the tone was still thin - but loud because of the dual element and microphone setup he brings to the stage.
The same meme is true for mandolin and other double coursed instruments. The energy requirements for a good tone are much greater than for a banjo and more force is needed. In addition, the shape, material, stiffness and the thickness of a pick all make a difference in tone. Technique plays a great part in tone, especially finding the sweet spot in both the instrument and your arm and then being consistent and precise. It is not an easy thing to do without deliberately practicing it.
If you listen to a mandolin played with a thin flexible pick, you will hear thin tone and thin volume. The same instrument with a thicker stiffer pick will have much more complexity. That complexity is rich enough that if you vary your technique (such as changing from a down stroke to and up stroke - there are power differences with heavier picks) you will vary the way the instrument sounds. Alternatively, a thin pick's energy transfer is probably maxed out going either way for most of us so they tone is similar or the same. DUD DUD with a thin pick will not sound much different from DUDUDU assuming the power on 1 and 4 are close. In that case there is no need to be as precise or consistent.
Mike Keyes
http://www.banjosessions.com
# Posted on December 18th 2007 by mikeyes
Re: Lead picking patterns for jigs on guitar
can be nice when backing to just use all downs DDD DDD. then just vary where your putting emphasis.. on the 1 and 4 works well obviously as does the 4 and 6 together...gives great percussive effect..
# Posted on December 18th 2007 by ljw
Re: Lead picking patterns for jigs on guitar
dud dud for jigs,there is a hell of adifference in emphasis [in my opinion].du for reels,except when crossing strings when I prefer to use dd.
for polkas I prefer to start the main beat on an up,giving emphasis on a down for the off beat
fiddlers do use dud dud,but fiddlers have the advantage that they can do much more slurring,and thus have many more different combinations, they can slur three notes or slur two one[ddu]or [d uu],it is silly to compare picked string instruments to a fiddle.
# Posted on December 18th 2007 by dickens metrognome
Re: Lead picking patterns for jigs on guitar
I suppose I tend to be a pretty heavy guitar player and prefer to use a fairly heavy pick, at 0.93mm, for flatpicking (where I might use a lighter one for strumming - but I keep breaking my 0.56s) and so there doesn't tend to be much natural difference in emphasis between my Ds and Us. So I can play UDU with most of the emphasis on the first U or UDD with most of the emphasis on the U.
So if I was playing Charlie Hunter's I might pick |DFA GBd|Adf a2g| as |DUD UDD|UDD U D|. Weird, eh?
# Posted on December 18th 2007 by DonaldK
Re: Lead picking patterns for jigs on guitar
Silly to compare plectrum & bows... yeah, maybe.
DonaldK was joking, I think - (or throwing down a gauntlet!) -- a diffficult technique, to lift and play two downstrokes with the bow, in time and at speed. I've heard it in Danish and Swedish music, very staccato and rough, to wonderful effect.
# Posted on December 19th 2007 by fidkid
Re: Lead picking patterns for jigs on guitar
My concern with DUD, DUD would be that the 2nd triplet might sound too much like the first, becomeing in effect a fast waltz! Also this pattern, I Imagine would be much harder to consistantly perform. Once again I suggest the tune itself should dictate any pattern used. Which strings etc. Also, I will ellongate the first note of the bar to accentuate the jig rhythm and will accentuate the second triplet with a heavier stroke, even though it will be an up pick. I cant see any reason for this old dog to change now.
What about slip and single jig picking patterns? how would you's pick them?
# Posted on December 19th 2007 by jig
Re: Lead picking patterns for jigs on guitar
I am a fingerpicker for both tunes and backing but can flatpick a tune too, and have to say I find there may be a lot of basic patterning in both finger and flatpick playing, but you can't be glued to it. Tunes will demand you break it now and again. there are places you'll do a little split second stop/pause/hold back in the tune, as a fiddler might, and then you may pick it up again doing the same down or up stroke twice in a row, which breaks the pattern.
It's the hardest thing to convey and teach to a guitar student, especially ones coming from folk music, particularly those used to backing their own singing. It's not the same ball game at all. Sure, You have to teach the basic picking for a jig, reel, whatever timing, yet the person has to learn to really listen to the tunes note for note, whether backing or tune playing, and not be so rigidly tied to a picking pattern.
You just listen, learn the melody and do as any other melody player would. You might draw out a note (on fiddle or winds easy enough, on guitar you may bend the string a bit to draw it out for example) . The drawing out of a note will always break the pattern, but that or the little stops and hesitations, the things that will break the pattern are what give the music its life, its emotion and feeling, its personality, lets the personality of the player come through. It gives the tunes its light and darks and lows and highs.Otherwise you may as well be typing on a typewriter hammering out notes in a repetitive pattern.
Once you learn the tune with your pattern, you can start then to deviate from it. Surely you notice at first, you pick it out note by note, and all the notes have the same timing, then once the tune is memorized you can start the deviations from the pattern, and that is really what makes the music wake up. Just my humble opinion here, but the music sounds better when there are little surprises in it all over the place. Once you know a tune well, you can really make those strings cry and laugh, be dark or lighthearted and all mixed into the same tune, that's what gives it life, and to do that you must be willing to drop the pattern here and there a little. Not so much that it doesn't make sense anymore, but used as a spice...that is good music.
# Posted on December 20th 2007 by irisnevins
Re: Lead picking patterns for jigs on guitar
Thanks for all your thoughtful comments, everyone. You've been quite helpful.
-Aye.
# Posted on December 22nd 2007 by ayedbl