Is the first eighth note of each group of notes always lengthened slightly throughout a jig? It seems to me, just listening to recordings, that there is more of a lilt in some places than in others. In some recordings I don't even hear it at all. Is it just more pronounced sometimes? I hope my question makes sense.
Thanks.
It makes so much sense that you've answered yourself. If it wasn't for those subtle differences us bodhran players would be replaced by drum machines. Then bar sales would drop (drum machines don't drink) and the session would be kicked out of the pub. Tragedy.
Jigs are played in groups of 3 or 6 notes, depending on how you look at it, because there are 6 eighth notes in a measure.
In terms of length and dynamics for each note: In each group of three notes, the first note is the strongest, since it's the down beat. The second note is the weakest, and the third is somewhere in between.
So the rhythm goes something like this:
ONE two Three FOUR five Six.
Does that make sense? All you can really do is listen to people playing jigs to really pick up on this. Some people play it more subtly than others, but listen closely and you'll get it eventually.
What you have described, Hambledon, tends to be much more pronounced in certain types of playing in Scotland (eg, for dancing) where the first note will last two times or three times the length of the second.
taken from Mike Keyes site ( hope you don't mind MIke), Gerry O ' Connor's take on it, this helped me
I would use DUD DUD. The consecutive down hit marks the tempo and dynamic of the 6/8 rhythm of jigs. Of course there will be times when a smooth passage might not need to be played in such a regimented fashion but a lot depends on how the musician interprets the tune. Rhythm is important in banjo playing especially in a group where it can have a lovely hypnotic effect. In fact if you were to be really precise, in 6/8 jigs the first DUD is strong ,the next DUD is weaker, then the Next DUD is strong followed by the next DUD weaker (and so forth) so one is getting a sort of wave like quality to the jigs. So, you are breaking the 6 note bar up into strong and weak.Hope this makes sense,The emphasis is on the 1 of each 6 notes and repeated almost like a bodhran player (a good bodhran player, that is.)
The original post was asking about note values, not dynamics. This lengthening of the first eighth-note in each group of three in a jig is what Highland pipers call "pointing" or "dotting and cutting" (because putting a dot behind a note lengthens it, but another note must be "cut" or reduced in length to accomodate the dotted note).
So, played dead straight a bar of jig would have six even eighth-notes, but "pointed" would have:
dotted eighth>sixteenth>eighth
dotted eighth >sixteenth> eighth
You hear this especially with uilleann pipes when they're playing a jig more slowly. And there are certain note-groups that on the pipes tend to be "pointed", one being the group:
back D > staccato C sharp > A
All of this only regards the TIMING and has nothing to do with DYNAMICS which is playing notes loud and soft.
As far as dynamics go, there was a thread about that a while back. Many good players like to emphasise the "backbeat" which in a jig is:
one two THREE
four five SIX
and you'll hear that in a lot of bodhran playing. Playing ONE two three FOUR five six sounds laboured and can drag the music down.
The issue here may simply be whether it's a double jig or a single jig. When one of the notes within a triplet is held as a dotted note, it is a single jig. Otherwise, it is a double jig. "The Road to Lisdoonvarna" is a single jig; or to be more festive, "God Rest Ye Merry, Gentlemen" is also a single jig. Is this the distinction you are trying to make?
When this came up I looked through the archives.
There was a little discussion last christmas about rounded vs. pointed rhythms. Highly trained musicians (insert classic) learn to play equal valued 1/8 notes. Trad players give jigs a 'lilt' ~ they swing it. Just keep listening. Some is more pointed, some rounded, some a bit of each. & as they say ~ it is dance music & it is nice to give a lift.
Thanks all. I guess a lot of it is up to the interpretation of the player. It would propobly help if I could get out to some sessions and listen to the players there. I am used to playing jigs with a "rounded" rhythm, but now I am considering using more of a lilt after listening more closely. Nothing exagerated, but just enough to give it a bit of a lift, as you say Muse.
I don't think the issue is single jig vs double jig. The difference between a double jig and a single jig is not dotted vs straight, but the number of notes per bar. Double jigs have six notes per bar, single jigs have four notes per bar.
Double jig: one two three four five six
Single jig: one three four six
So, yes, in a dotted double jig the first note is longer which is a bit like a single jig, but the dotted double jig still have six notes per bar.
sorry Richard, i dont quite get your meaning? a single jig has 12 notes a bar, the emphasis is on 1 so the phrase is longer. a double has 6 note per phrase. this relates to the dance steps.
God rest ye....?! sorry is that a trad tune? never heard it in a session myself. and might walk out in disgust if i did!
Jig Rhythm
Jig Rhythm
Is the first eighth note of each group of notes always lengthened slightly throughout a jig? It seems to me, just listening to recordings, that there is more of a lilt in some places than in others. In some recordings I don't even hear it at all. Is it just more pronounced sometimes? I hope my question makes sense.
Thanks.
# Posted on December 18th 2007 by Hambledon
Re: Jig Rhythm
It makes so much sense that you've answered yourself. If it wasn't for those subtle differences us bodhran players would be replaced by drum machines. Then bar sales would drop (drum machines don't drink) and the session would be kicked out of the pub. Tragedy.
# Posted on December 18th 2007 by mcknowall
Re: Jig Rhythm
Jigs are played in groups of 3 or 6 notes, depending on how you look at it, because there are 6 eighth notes in a measure.
In terms of length and dynamics for each note: In each group of three notes, the first note is the strongest, since it's the down beat. The second note is the weakest, and the third is somewhere in between.
So the rhythm goes something like this:
ONE two Three FOUR five Six.
Does that make sense? All you can really do is listen to people playing jigs to really pick up on this. Some people play it more subtly than others, but listen closely and you'll get it eventually.
# Posted on December 18th 2007 by FidDLe01
Re: Jig Rhythm
It is true that that pattern is often more pronounced in certain parts of a tune... it's not absolutely the same all the way through.
# Posted on December 18th 2007 by seisflutes
Re: Jig Rhythm
What you have described, Hambledon, tends to be much more pronounced in certain types of playing in Scotland (eg, for dancing) where the first note will last two times or three times the length of the second.
# Posted on December 18th 2007 by DonaldK
Re: Jig Rhythm
taken from Mike Keyes site ( hope you don't mind MIke), Gerry O ' Connor's take on it, this helped me
I would use DUD DUD. The consecutive down hit marks the tempo and dynamic of the 6/8 rhythm of jigs. Of course there will be times when a smooth passage might not need to be played in such a regimented fashion but a lot depends on how the musician interprets the tune. Rhythm is important in banjo playing especially in a group where it can have a lovely hypnotic effect. In fact if you were to be really precise, in 6/8 jigs the first DUD is strong ,the next DUD is weaker, then the Next DUD is strong followed by the next DUD weaker (and so forth) so one is getting a sort of wave like quality to the jigs. So, you are breaking the 6 note bar up into strong and weak.Hope this makes sense,The emphasis is on the 1 of each 6 notes and repeated almost like a bodhran player (a good bodhran player, that is.)
# Posted on December 18th 2007 by molloy
Re: Jig Rhythm
The original post was asking about note values, not dynamics. This lengthening of the first eighth-note in each group of three in a jig is what Highland pipers call "pointing" or "dotting and cutting" (because putting a dot behind a note lengthens it, but another note must be "cut" or reduced in length to accomodate the dotted note).
So, played dead straight a bar of jig would have six even eighth-notes, but "pointed" would have:
dotted eighth>sixteenth>eighth
dotted eighth >sixteenth> eighth
You hear this especially with uilleann pipes when they're playing a jig more slowly. And there are certain note-groups that on the pipes tend to be "pointed", one being the group:
back D > staccato C sharp > A
All of this only regards the TIMING and has nothing to do with DYNAMICS which is playing notes loud and soft.
As far as dynamics go, there was a thread about that a while back. Many good players like to emphasise the "backbeat" which in a jig is:
one two THREE
four five SIX
and you'll hear that in a lot of bodhran playing. Playing ONE two three FOUR five six sounds laboured and can drag the music down.
# Posted on December 18th 2007 by Richard D Cook
Re: Jig Rhythm
The issue here may simply be whether it's a double jig or a single jig. When one of the notes within a triplet is held as a dotted note, it is a single jig. Otherwise, it is a double jig. "The Road to Lisdoonvarna" is a single jig; or to be more festive, "God Rest Ye Merry, Gentlemen" is also a single jig. Is this the distinction you are trying to make?
# Posted on December 18th 2007 by Ailin
Re: Jig Rhythm
When this came up I looked through the archives.
There was a little discussion last christmas about rounded vs. pointed rhythms. Highly trained musicians (insert classic) learn to play equal valued 1/8 notes. Trad players give jigs a 'lilt' ~ they swing it. Just keep listening. Some is more pointed, some rounded, some a bit of each. & as they say ~ it is dance music & it is nice to give a lift.
# Posted on December 18th 2007 by Random_notes
Re: Jig Rhythm
Thanks all. I guess a lot of it is up to the interpretation of the player. It would propobly help if I could get out to some sessions and listen to the players there. I am used to playing jigs with a "rounded" rhythm, but now I am considering using more of a lilt after listening more closely. Nothing exagerated, but just enough to give it a bit of a lift, as you say Muse.
# Posted on December 19th 2007 by Hambledon
Re: Jig Rhythm
I don't think the issue is single jig vs double jig. The difference between a double jig and a single jig is not dotted vs straight, but the number of notes per bar. Double jigs have six notes per bar, single jigs have four notes per bar.
Double jig: one two three four five six
Single jig: one three four six
So, yes, in a dotted double jig the first note is longer which is a bit like a single jig, but the dotted double jig still have six notes per bar.
# Posted on December 19th 2007 by Richard D Cook
Re: Jig Rhythm
God Rest Ye Merry Gentlemen is not a jig.
# Posted on December 19th 2007 by dafydd
Re: Jig Rhythm
Rashers and sausages isn't a jig either but it sounds like one!
# Posted on December 19th 2007 by Bannerman
Re: Jig Rhythm
sorry Richard, i dont quite get your meaning? a single jig has 12 notes a bar, the emphasis is on 1 so the phrase is longer. a double has 6 note per phrase. this relates to the dance steps.
God rest ye....?! sorry is that a trad tune? never heard it in a session myself. and might walk out in disgust if i did!
# Posted on December 19th 2007 by jig
Re: Jig Rhythm
Well it's not The Pogues or even a single jig
but it is kinda gay ~ at least it's 'Merry'
http://ie.youtube.com/watch?v=B9lnM6IGGyg
# Posted on December 20th 2007 by Random_notes