The Lambeg Drum like many traditional Irish yes Irish music topics have been used and abused and brought into politics where it has no place. The Lambeg like many instruments like the pipes or irish whistle has a selective following and with equal enthusiasim. The Lambeg orginally played alongside traditional Scottish and Irish tunes espectially those that you all hold dear, the lambeg accompanied these using time drumming by both Catholic and Protestants Irish men. It's a pity you know very little about it as it is a Irish instrument. It is also used may I say very late in its life for Drumming competitions which may i say are for enthusiasts and not for beating it up the Catholics. I would be interested to hear what you feel about this topic.
Bellendean, I’d like to make some observation for you on your thoughts, but I’d like to make a *disclaimer* first – I’m Australian – I hope that doesn’t disappoint. On the other hand I’m at least in a position to give my impressions as someone quite outside whatever *politics* as you might be saying are around the lambeg drum – apart from what I am provided with in the media over the years.
Seamus Kennedy in his entertaining Bodhran solo/demo track (its available on iTunes, Jeremy, so stay your hand) claims that backing up the marching columns of Irish troops in history (most recently no doubt way back in the 1590s and early 1600s) were the pipers (presumably not uilleann pipers unless they were carried on chairs) and ahead of the column might have been around 30 or so bodhran players! I don’t know where he gets it, but I can imagine, especially if the marching was at any pace. It may be difficult with lambegs, as it seems to me. Those armies must surely have had pipes and drums.
On the other hand, I notice that the lambeg (I’m sorry if I haven’t got the term right, in this context, but it seems similar) is the staple drum in Scottish highland bands today. The town where I live has the largest highland band gathering, now in its 30th year, in the southern hemisphere, but not a bodhran in sight.
The lambeg is a vital part of Irish musical tradition and history, regardless of sectarian feeling. I suggest large doses of ibuprofen when listening to them.
I was always impressed with the thought that the lambeg drummers most likely tied one on pretty well the night previous, and must be out there marching and whaling away on those things with vicious hangovers. Ouch.
Regardless of it's beginnings, the Lambeg's recent history seems to be firmly entrenched in sectarian intimidation music. I can think of no other example in which it is currently used. Perhaps if someone more educated than I can show me a picture of one without King Billy on it I might be convinced otherwise.
The Lambeg is no doubt part of the Irish historical experience and unfortunately because of its use in sectarian situations in the recent past, this has been very negative. However, things are now moving in a much more positive direction as evidenced by the recent visit to the States of the two Assembly leaders, Martin and Ian (Some labelled their performance in the Stock Exchange as "Fairy Tale of New York) and instruments such as the Lambeg may come to no longer possess their emotive connotations. Notwithstanding all this I don't think any of us would ever wish to see one turn up at a trad session!!
If you're interested in reading up more on this, can I suggest Gary Hasting's wee book, 'With Fife & Drum'. He explores both the history and recent associations of the Lambeg drums at length. If I recall correctly, Gary reckons that the drums used to be the backing instrument to the fife and flute bands but that in recent decades, have tended to become louder due to competition drumming and now tend to usurp the role of the melody instruments.
Gary also by the way points out there is a considerable marching tradition on both sides of the community in the North. The Orange lads are well known but there's the Ancient Order of Hibernians, I think, amongst others on the Nationalist side. It seems that music is a common pool and both traditions draw from it, both in terms of melody and musicians.
Well firstly it is nice to see that I have at least got some interest in the subject.
Replying to:
Regardless of it's beginnings, the Lambeg's recent history seems to be firmly entrenched in sectarian intimidation music.
I suppose without raising to this comment which does seem to be posted without good awareness of the culture surrounding the Lambeg. but this is good as this is why I posted the disscussion point.
I find it hard to agree that the Lambeg seems to be firmly entrenched in sectarian intimidation music as the music that you play in your everyday sessions which you class as Irish or Scottish are infact the same tunes that we play on the fife along side time drumming.
Well I suppose if you hear the Lambeg being played without the fife as we call competition drumming this is loud as it was designed to be heard Like Indian drums over a long distance and is played in a passific rythm as to Identfy the Drummer.
I can think of no other example in which it is currently used.
I along with my father recently played alongside and Orchestra and 200 strong choir at the ryder cup at the K Club and yes as part of the arrangement. There are also various good quality groups such ast Different Drums, The Ulster Scots Orchestra, The Ulster Scots Experience, Etc.. these are all positive uses don't you think
Perhaps if someone more educated than I can show me a picture of one without King Billy on it I might be convinced otherwise.
We currently have five Lambeg Drums within our Club and none actually have a painting of King Billy on it.
The paintings usualy signify some quality of the Drum or the drummer or have some family or historical connections.
I was at Markethill this year the Heart of the Competition Drumming and out of around 80 to 90 drums shown that night I think if my memory is right there may have been two with King Billy on it.
The types of tunes that we play on the Fife alongside the Lambeg that you may or may not know include:
Garyowen,
Parting Glass,
Gold in every Pocket,
Jacksons Return,
Maids in the Green,
Open the Door,
Russian Retreat,
Raggle Taggle Gypsies,
The Irishmans's Hornpipe
Paddy O'Carroll
The Boys of Blue Hill
The Star of County Down
I had to say something, tried to resist. Just as some politicians tell the truth, there are some Lambeg drummers who try to adopt to a cultural approach to the drum. However traditionally the Lambeg has been to intimidate, from those in AOH or "Kick the Pope" bands, or as it says in the song "Loyal Orange Heroes of Comber" in regard to the lambeg, "Fill your Fenian hearts with fear".
There is light on the horizon. As part of the peace process, along with the "Chuckle Brothers", we are trying to sell two different cultures. Hence the emergency of Roy and the lads with Different Drums, who used to play Eamon Maguire bodhrans, and the need for the 12th and Blackman's Day to become "family" days, of entertainment for all. It has been working in Derry, but Belfast and a number of other areas still have a fair bit to go.
As for the AOH, they should do us all a favour and disband, for musical reasons if nothing else.
And finally, the tunes many bands play may be "Irish" songs familiar to both traditions, but we are not talking reels and jigs here.
"...The band has played across the world, for US & Irish presidents to school children - The message is the same; Celebrate that which makes us different and that which bonds us together."
We are talking reels and jigs that's the whole point when playing ie jig time along side traditional Irish/Scottish tunes because that's what we play.
A kick the pope band as you may call it would not actualy be able to play along side a lambeg. So you can't really use that argument.
Well I suppose if you played a Bodhran alongside the Irish Volunteer, or a snipers promise then that may be conitive of secterian don't you think, depends who your playing it to I think.
Coming from a Drumming club in Belfast I must agree like any inner city area Belfast has a lot to learn but has also alot to offer.
And the songs that are listed above are traditionaly played and were played Like any conflicted country there will be some songs which are played that others may not like as you know all cultures African, Scottish, Irish, Chinese have there war songs but you cannot play a song n a drum It is the person playing the drum not the drum.
Bellendean - thank you for your informative posts. I appreciate your efforts to make this drum a less confrontational issue.
However, I am glad Bliss finally joined this conversation since he lives in the middle of the place where there still is a lingering and festering open wound regarding the use of this drum.
Hopefully, more people like you Bellendean will help the transition away from it's current reputation. I s'pose thats why you started this post ya?
Thank you for your last post it was very much appreciated. I don't know if I have actually made it less confrontational but i'm trying lol
I suppose when you see something as loud as a Lambeg can be being played as hard as you can, well it can be particularly daunting.
But coming from a Protestant area and as enthusiastic about playing the Bodhran, fife, Irish Flute as well as the Lambeg. The culture around the Lambeg scene is not drawn with the same conitations that you would see when the Proddy Boys are swaggering up the road "no offence"
The Bodhran would have taken the same identity as a lambeg in certain areas but we are trying to make the transaction back to what we used to have when there was no propeganda and point scoring.
I don't think anyone minds a good loud drum, Bellendean, except when it is pushed through unappreciative neighborhoods behind a sea of black bowler hats and orange sashes.
However, I am very glad to hear you are taking the drum back to more enjoyable, non-sectarian venues. Best of luck to you.
I am curious to see if Bliss has the same take as you regarding the Bodhran. I find it difficult to believe the bodhran and the lambeg having potentially taken the same paths in Norn Iron.
In my younger days in Glasgow I just seem to remember the Orange marches round our streets -- and in particular our street which had a Catholic church right in the middle of it. The lodge, which both comprised and attracted huge crowds would march the streets round the grounds of the church about three times before marching off to cause mischief elsewhere, all the while the Lambegs booming and the fifes trilling. Tell me that is not intimidation or provocation. Even so, this was quite a spectacle in the late 50's early 60's on a peripheral housing estate in Glasgow, where there wasn't much else happening, besides gang warfare. This particular estate, Drumchapel, was predominantly protestant - about two thirds prod to one third catholic; I myself attended a "non-denominational" school (proddy), though my parents professed no religion. Not good enough for some of my peers, who eyed such non-participation as a prelude to "jumpin' the wa'", and similarly a name like Danny sounded a bit papist. Anyway, sectarianism was not confined to Northern Ireland.
Mostly I'm curious as to the motives behind this thread. After all, I thought this website was mostly, but not exclusively, connected with music played in sessions. Is it a plea for absolution or acceptance?
I think you'll have to do three hail marys before they let you in
Anybody playing "The Sniper's Promise" to anyone, at any time, should be stopped, quickly. Even the name should make one ashamed.
And unfortunately "Kick the Pope" bands comprise of thirty flutes, and twenty lambegs.
I once took part in a lambeg competition in Ballee in Ballymena, about 12 years ago. They knew I was a "fenian" drum player (bodhran) but the craic was good, especially when they decided at the speed I was playing the parade would be down Garvaghy Road before anyone noticed
Fortunately some sensible people are trying to change things, and hopefully the Lambeg can fulfill a "cultural" role.
As for the bodhran been seen as belonging to the "other" side, as distinct from Lambeg, I believe this was an invention, one of those "sure the others do the same" arguments. No-one has ever led parades in recent memory celebrating triumphalism by playing bodhrans.
A bit like the 15th August canceling out the 12th. I never even knew about the 15th of August until I was 37. Must be a country thing, like the AOH, who are a very touchy subject with me.
Good luck to you Bellendean, and I hope you succeed in "decriminalising" the Lambeg, for want of another word
The lambeg drum at the centre of bowler-hatted, orange-sashed columns always seemed to be a focus in the media coverage which I ever saw of those marches. It is difficult for outsiders to understand why such marches went into areas or were conducted in ways which would surely cause consternation in some neighbourhoods.
The only comparison I could ever imagine would be as if the annual Anzac Day veterans marches here, attended by thousands of returned Australian soldiers from all conflicts, as age permits them, in memory of the very bitter war fought with the Japanese in World War 2, twere to dress up in their khaki diggers outfits with leather bandoliers and slouch hats with emus plumes and accompanied by our highland pipes and drums as well as pith-helmet fife bands parading three times around the Japanese consulate and into any Japanese neighbourhoods! They don’t do that of course, it would be offensive to do so, and probably highly irrelevant but also alienating, to younger Australian-born Japanese who would have no idea or identification with what happened in WW 2 in the Pacific, and sound as Australian as the diggers themselves. The veterans simply commemorate by marching up the main street of the city, which is made available for them for the day, then disband and go to the pub for a lunch and few beers for the rest of the holiday!
Seems to me that lambegs are really good for accompanying marching music. How about get together some ITM marches, there are there, put together a program and have a military tattoo and festival once a year a joint venture between the Irish army and whomever in Northern Ireland, with a nice barbeque, a few beers and a bit of friendly craic. It works a treat.
And can anyone tell me if the British helicopters still hover over people’s rooftops and backyards in the South Armagh area? All afternoon one day, from the top of Slieve Gullion I watched while helicopters paraded in the valleys below all around the mountain stop and hover just at rooftop levels over peoples houses. Horrific! I asked one lady about it on our way out, and she just burst into tears! Got help her if she then had an orange parade past her front door. Geez, give it a break eh.
The Lambeg Drum like many traditional Irish yes Irish music topics have been used and abused and brought into politics where it has no place.
Helicopters are not isolated to South Armagh If you come down to my house a few nights a week you will be sure to hear one.
But that is not the point we have to stop fighting arguments through our music and allow those who are actually directly envolved break away from those days where propeganda was more important than the truth.
It must be difficult to hear your music, even a lambeg drug,
with a military helicopter banging away twenty metres above your roof for fifteen minutes. What possible purpose does that serve! If that sort of carry-on happened in Australia the government would be voted out of office. No one is allowed to interrupt our ITM here!
Well when we still have nightly attacks and bombs being found in our shopping centres as reasently as two weeks ago I suppose it's something we have to live with.
I wonder is that why they were made so loud so you could compete with the Helicopters :D
Well, I guess the helicopters aren't stopping the bombs in the shopping centres, and the bombs aren't stopping the helicopters either.
Maybe if everyone stopped doing both, and started listening to a few tunes together - then it might stop.
It's a matter of sitting down and studying the tunes and listening to other people's takes and views on how to play along together, after all.
Well I hope "Bannerman" if I was to come down and ask to join in with your wee session some night wither with my Bodrhan, flute, fife or even Lambeg you wouldn't turn me away sure that would be a shame.
"Duijera Dubh" That is exactly the it I'm glad we got to that point. It's about learning and building on the simularities and not the differences. And I'm sure if you blattered away the hardest at most things and didn't take the time to get the best out of your instrument then there wouldn't be a session.
And yet that is what you see all the time when you see them on the news blattering away, but when they are played traditionaly along with a fife or pipes or even an Orchestra then like any instrument they fit in really well.
There is so much time and effort put into making and the upkeep of the drum just to let the skins go lose.
Some of the best skins are kept to put on the drums and then the thiker skins with a few flaws are used for Bodrhans im not saying them all but it would just ruin the time and effort put in and change the whole dynamic of the instrument
It's like saying sure can you not just use a few flutes to blatter it with
Yep, the daikos are great, we have them direct from Japan regularly, excellent stuff, and no politics in sight. You tube has lots of clips under 'daiko'.
Sounds like what is needed is for a unique Ulster group to take up the challenge and fuse ITM with that sort of drumming, take in on tour, make some CDs...
It may make the lambeg used in orange marches look a bit of an anachronism, although I think they'll be plenty to keep it up.
Maybe a migration infusion of about 6 million cashed-up Japanese settlers to buy up your real estate and bring in a completely different mass cultural view to the possibilities of daiko drumming rather than politico-lambeging would be a quick fix.
"Can you take the air out of those lambeg drums ... "
I have no doubt if you did that and played it in a vacuum the results would be very satisfactory.
The link I supplied on you tube "is" an ulster group using Lambegs to play Heartbeat on of the men in the clip is Stephen who I work closely with, they have released a fe CD's themselves.
Have a wee look at their site should be interesting. Not too much TIM but its there.
But there is more and more groups starting to look at TIM versions because that is what traditional accompanied the Lambeg.
But unless we have a wee bit of awareness of the culture then I suppose it will not take off, you just need to look at some of the posts on this strain to see there is a lot of work ahead of us.
I'm going to write to the government here and get them to send in the helicopters to buzz those car hoons that parade up and down the street drowning out my music with their doof-doof rubbish! They're not even the same religion as me for god's sake.
Interesting link, RobBBQ. Bellendean, why don't you try kangaroo skin for a lambeg. You'll get more bounce out of them for sure. Talk to McKnowall about it, it is not a joke actually.
"Regardless of it's beginnings, the Lambeg's recent history seems to be firmly entrenched in sectarian intimidation music."
"Recently", here, should be taken to mean: "at least since 1795 " [when the orange order was founded].
"The lambeg is a vital part of Irish musical tradition and history..."
No one can seriously suggest that this belongs to a "musical" tradition! It does belong to a sinister political movement with close associations with the British white-power movement.
Whistle, I think the point that Bellendean is trying to make, correct me if I am wrong anyone, is that the big drums (similar to Scottish highland drums) were once part of Irish military tradition. *That* tradition became extinct for all historic purposes in 1601 at the Battle of Kinsale. Prior to that battle, there was an epic march of thousands of Irish troops under O'Neill and O'Donnell from Northern Ireland to Kinsale in the dead of winter! Those armies were no doubt accompanied by pipes and drums. What sort of pipes, what sort of drums, remains an undocumented fact, mainly because the Irish lost that one battle, and history was re-written. War pipes were outlawed (hence the uilleann pipes evolution), and whatever happened with drums we don't know, by the look of it.
It is the word "lambeg" that is irritating people, I feel, and the association of that with politics in Northern Ireland in historical memory today. Does Bellendean have a point actually?
Put aside the politics and give the man a chance. If he can't come to the party, then he should not, perhaps have started the thread.
Whistle, the important issue in this thread really is - in my humble observation - is that the northern Irish *protestant* people - represented in this case by *lambeg* drummers, are wanting you to recognise that they are Irish.
Whistle, these descendants have been in Northern Ireland for longer than the European *history* of my country - Australia - exits, by about double!
It will have to be let go sooner or later, and it will. Hopefully your descendants will still afford to be in the area to enjoy what you now enoy. Stop the fighting, play the music - together, and change where change invites you.
A point to be made here as I appreciate peoples opinion we need to move on we have such a shared culture and history, I'm sorry but if you believe that even half of the session tunes you play orginates in Ireland then I think you need to relook at what you are playing.
For I am sure clattered right accross your tunes are decades of influences world wide even the Bodhran can not claim to be uninfluenced by European and African culture.
Last time I was there, I stayed in a thatched maybe a *tourist* cottage in Ardara - I spent the nights listening to the flying wind in front of my peat fire, provided by courtesy of yer man, and listentin' to the music of my choice. I was in Ireland, it does not matter whether I was a catholic or protestant, I experience the same thing as you all.
You see now, Bllndn is saying he is Irish, he shares the culture of the land which he surely does, but he has some redefinition within himself of it - is it not worth listening to?
How can I not be Irish I live in Northern Ireland you see we go back once again to politics. The Lambeg is so big that you can not miss it though people can't see it if you know what I mean. Come one of course things change in a conflicted society and some people graple on to certain sides.
Once I wouldn't have played the Bodhran or the Lambeg but like some of the good friends i've met over the past few years play both.
Blldn, they ^see* it, they don't want to accept it, I think is the point. Yes, it has been conflicted with politics.
Bllndn wants dearly, to be accepted by you as Irish in the context that he can offer, and offer well.
In Australia - I'm sorry about this apparent irrelevance - if you were born in Australia, you are Australian, and you may play whatever music you may wish to share with those born or who come here.
I can honestly say this is not about being Irish or not, looking through the links on the session website there is quite a few non irish musicians and tunes, and I am deffenately not pleeing for acceptance.
At the end of the day we should be able to look past the few negative images and find out what lies below.
*non-Irish musicians*, Blldn? you are definitely not pleading of course, I'm sorry if that is the impression I gave, it was not meant. But yes, negatives could be removed with generosity on both sides of any argument.
I’m not a fan of just making up history in order to appease. Large drums were not used in battle, they are too unwieldy and near impossible to carry long distances. Side drums are more likely to fit the bill. Gaelic Highland warriors who marched with pipers must be distinguished from the highland regiments of the English army founded in the 19th century. The latter used bass drums in their marching bands for military parades. No actual evidence has been presented that large bass drums of the lambeg variety were ever used in Ireland by Gaelic people. In the middle ages the raiding parties marched into the Pale led by torch-bearers at night and by papers by day, no mention is made of their being accompanied by drums of any kind. There is also scant evidence for the use of the Bodhran or similar frame-drums in Irish warfare. If the Gaelic soldiers used any drum at all it is most likely to be the side drum used across northern Europe.
Have a look at the link below, this happened this year on the 12 August 2007 in the centre of our Capital City.
Don't take this in a bad way look at it for what it is and the only point I am trying to make here is that because there is a few bad images doesn't mean that is the way it always was or has to be.
I must agree with whistleblower in this one I believe that the origination of the rope drum as what it is would have been played like a side drum. But there has to be a point here too the bass drum orginally would have been roped and was used to keep time and played with either a wooden ball mallet or a skin covered mallet.
There has also been suggestions that it was used to direct movements just like a trumpet, thus giving it a long distance but these would of certainly been European in origian some people suggest Dutch
Going back to the Bodhran it has been suggested that a simalar type of frame drum and beater was used in the highlands for hunting and then used later for music
No problem on the typo, Whistle. Understood.
Bllndn, don't you think that article is more about an eye for an eye than anything else?
Whistle, I hear that you don't like to make up the history at all, but what are y'er sources for those -very interesting I must say - assertions.
Mate, the big drums came from somewhere, and they're still used to great emotive effect today in highland bands. Mate, I have as much native Irish as Hugenout background as possible, but I can still appreciate the effect that might have been sought to have been achieved some four hundred years ago. Let's be glad we didn't have to make the sacrifices that those poor b*stds did at the order of the landlords.
Guys, if you have no more to say now, after a time, I am going to take my leave for a time, and thank you for your great company and craic. I will be back in a short while.
It's not the article really it's the significants of some of the posts that have been submitted on the thread, about onesided views especially around the Lambeg, just because someone has witnessed an event. That does not mean that it's normal practise.
And If I am only aloud to turn up at a session as long as I leave my Lambeg at home just because someone got annoyed at the bin lid rattlling.
Blldn - I told ye - do a military tattoo - it is ideally made for Irish Army/big drum type exhibitions - like the Edinburgh Tattoo. Someone will do this one day, man, and you will miss out if ye don't listen, for fecks sake.
Duijera Dubh writes: " you don't like to make up the history at all, but what are y'er sources for those -very interesting I must say - assertions."
I think the description of the pipers leading raids on the Pale comes from Giraldus Cambrensis. The rest is from many years reading medieval and early modern Irish historical sources, and from seeing that many of the claims of Irish cultural ‘historians’ have no foundation in the sources. (Incidentally, I don’t think the great pipes were banned in Ireland. They were played quite widely in Ireland into the 20th century. And bellows pipes that were the predecessors of the uilleann pipes have been in Ireland for many hundreds of years).
My point about not making up history is that for some time there has been a movement towards rehabilitating the orange ‘culture’ and making it seem more civilised, with a general disregard for historical truth. There is the Ulster-Scots movement (which claims that various northern protestant dialects constitute a separate ‘language’, a claim rejected by all academic linguists) has attempted to show that some derivative of Scottish culture, rather than anti-Catholic sectarianism, drives the orange movement. And a concomitant attitude of appeasement has occurred in Irish culture, attempting to show that orangism is not sectarian in origin, but has something in common with Irish culture. Needless to say, a brief look at 19th century history puts this attitude to rest. I don’t believe that all musical heritages are equally valuable. I think it would be best if Northern Ireland republican sectarian ‘rebel’ music & sectarian orange music went the way of Ku Klux Klan music & Nazi propaganda music, and was consigned permanently to the trash-can of history.
Our whole community is based on this recently devised word "sectarianism" we do not live in a pluralist community and just by your comments and by you thinking your idea is right confirms this theory.
If we just rubbish the past 300 years history and don't learn from it then what will happen a generation down the line sure it will rear it's head again.
Again the reason for this disscussion is to build on the shared identity of the Lambeg and not to be "sectarian" about it.
I do agree there does need to be clarity around Orange culture and Ulster Scots culture and the two do meet "but" Ulster scots culture is not purely Orangeism although Orangeism as a Catholic reformed faith did change signifacntly due to the influence of scottish presbyterianism. And the links between the islands are unmistakable evident in ITM.
Out of interest i'm not too sure but would you let know where the Ulster Scots state that there language is made up of different "protestant" dialects because i'm not too sure if that's the case. Could be wrong tho!
“Our whole community is based on this recently devised word "sectarianism" we do not live in a pluralist community and just by your comments and by you thinking your idea is right confirms this theory.”
Surely we all believe our beliefs to be true, that’s what makes them beliefs! Just because a word was only recently used to describe a situation does not mean that it was not applicable all along. And the British press since the 19th century has noted that “the Orangeman wishes to see the Catholic crushed under foot”. (quoted in a book called something like Scottish Loyalism, from the Daily Mail in early 19th century if I remember correctly.) Pluralism is not always a good idea. Look at any Orange, Al Kida, or neo-Nazi website, should these people just be appeased and tolerated? Wishing to see the end of a sectarian movement which has anti-Catholicism at its root is not itself a sectarian attitude. Not all old traditions are worth preserving. (I mean, we don’t miss the Nazis, do we?)
The ‘Ulster Scots’ machine does say the language is mainly a protestant phenomenon, it’s not important. My point is that this was really a political fraud, inventing a ‘language’, and getting funding for dubious organizations, even though linguists failed to find one speaker of a distinct language, but only some local dialects of English. It is not a distinct ‘language’, unlike Broad Scots which apparently fits the criteria. And no one in politics dares to say what everyone knows, this was a scam to extract money from the state.
If you don't know your history, you don't know who you are.
Ignoring history, or cultures we don't like, is total ignorance. We must recognize our history, appreciate it, and learn from it, without perpetuating the evils of it.
I can't stand to see people denying their history because it's not PC. That's total sh*te, and it leads to the death of knowledge and understanding.
If you're clinging to history to be an ass, then you're in the wrong, obviously. This is not rocket science.
If you celebrate your history to help teach the valuable lessons learned by it, then you're doing the right thing.
Pretending like Republicanism and Orangeism never existed by ignoring their music is asinine and childish. It's like an ostrich at the first sign of danger.
Be an adult. Be a grown up. Celebrate history and learn from it. Hate has no place in education and celebration.
“If you don't know your history, you don't know who you are.”
I’m not suggesting we stop studying history. But studying history doesn’t necessarily go hand in hand with admiring far-right quasi-religious sectarian movements.
“I can't stand to see people denying their history because it's not PC.”
I’m all for studying history. Surely the ‘politically correct’ view is that all cultures are equally great! This is the pernicious view. Political correctness in Ireland and Britain says that every cultural element within society is simply wonderful. It’s important to understand the past, and very important to find out what actually happened; and important not to make things up for political purposes as in the case of the revisionary history popular in Ireland today (which panders to the PC view). The “the orange order is lovely” view common among Dublin politicians is an example of PC in action.
“Pretending like Republicanism and Orangeism never existed by ignoring their music is asinine and childish.”
It is lamentable that they exist, but I never pretended they didn’t. And I said that their ‘music’ was awful and completely without value, not just that I’m ignoring it. My plea was for this sectarian music to die a death like KKK music. Surely that’s not too controversial.
“Celebrate history and learn from it.”
“Celebrate history?” What does that mean? For instance, do Americans celebrate the Vietnam war? ‘cos they really shouldn’t. The instinct to celebrate all of its past has led many Americans to have a remarkably inaccurate view of their own history (not that different from the false histories taught in fascist states.) If celebrating one’s history means rejoicing in every evil perpetrated by one’s ancestors it’s not something I agree with. Understanding history is another thing. Looking clearly at history is something that rarely happens in popular culture (and is becoming increasingly rare in academia), and celebrating the persecution and extermination of Catholics seems further to impede proper learning and understanding of history.
Whistleb, your views are sound, logically and in sentiment.
I understand, most would, no doubt at all.
My own country had these divisions, Catholic Protestant for a long time. Not sure what happened, I think the heat burned it out of everyone, who then realised we're all in this together, even if we don't think the same.
One is tempted to say that Catholics were put on this earth to shoulder the burden of the rest of the world's "misguidance".
Things will move on though, what you will get in the end in the American or Australian amalgam. Who will mellow out in the end. Whose music survives?
Lambeg Awareness
Lambeg Awareness
The Lambeg Drum like many traditional Irish yes Irish music topics have been used and abused and brought into politics where it has no place. The Lambeg like many instruments like the pipes or irish whistle has a selective following and with equal enthusiasim. The Lambeg orginally played alongside traditional Scottish and Irish tunes espectially those that you all hold dear, the lambeg accompanied these using time drumming by both Catholic and Protestants Irish men. It's a pity you know very little about it as it is a Irish instrument. It is also used may I say very late in its life for Drumming competitions which may i say are for enthusiasts and not for beating it up the Catholics. I would be interested to hear what you feel about this topic.
# Posted on December 10th 2007 by undone
Re: Lambeg Awareness
Bellendean, I’d like to make some observation for you on your thoughts, but I’d like to make a *disclaimer* first – I’m Australian – I hope that doesn’t disappoint. On the other hand I’m at least in a position to give my impressions as someone quite outside whatever *politics* as you might be saying are around the lambeg drum – apart from what I am provided with in the media over the years.
Seamus Kennedy in his entertaining Bodhran solo/demo track (its available on iTunes, Jeremy, so stay your hand) claims that backing up the marching columns of Irish troops in history (most recently no doubt way back in the 1590s and early 1600s) were the pipers (presumably not uilleann pipers unless they were carried on chairs) and ahead of the column might have been around 30 or so bodhran players! I don’t know where he gets it, but I can imagine, especially if the marching was at any pace. It may be difficult with lambegs, as it seems to me. Those armies must surely have had pipes and drums.
On the other hand, I notice that the lambeg (I’m sorry if I haven’t got the term right, in this context, but it seems similar) is the staple drum in Scottish highland bands today. The town where I live has the largest highland band gathering, now in its 30th year, in the southern hemisphere, but not a bodhran in sight.
What would you make of it then?
# Posted on December 10th 2007 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Lambeg Awareness
The lambeg is a vital part of Irish musical tradition and history, regardless of sectarian feeling. I suggest large doses of ibuprofen when listening to them.
I was always impressed with the thought that the lambeg drummers most likely tied one on pretty well the night previous, and must be out there marching and whaling away on those things with vicious hangovers. Ouch.
# Posted on December 10th 2007 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Lambeg Awareness
Regardless of it's beginnings, the Lambeg's recent history seems to be firmly entrenched in sectarian intimidation music. I can think of no other example in which it is currently used. Perhaps if someone more educated than I can show me a picture of one without King Billy on it I might be convinced otherwise.
# Posted on December 10th 2007 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: Lambeg Awareness
Here's one:
http://differentdrums.info/
# Posted on December 10th 2007 by RobBBQ
Re: Lambeg Awareness
The Lambeg is no doubt part of the Irish historical experience and unfortunately because of its use in sectarian situations in the recent past, this has been very negative. However, things are now moving in a much more positive direction as evidenced by the recent visit to the States of the two Assembly leaders, Martin and Ian (Some labelled their performance in the Stock Exchange as "Fairy Tale of New York) and instruments such as the Lambeg may come to no longer possess their emotive connotations. Notwithstanding all this I don't think any of us would ever wish to see one turn up at a trad session!!
# Posted on December 10th 2007 by Bannerman
Re: Lambeg Awareness
If you're interested in reading up more on this, can I suggest Gary Hasting's wee book, 'With Fife & Drum'. He explores both the history and recent associations of the Lambeg drums at length. If I recall correctly, Gary reckons that the drums used to be the backing instrument to the fife and flute bands but that in recent decades, have tended to become louder due to competition drumming and now tend to usurp the role of the melody instruments.
# Posted on December 10th 2007 by the wounded hussar
Re: Lambeg Awareness
Gary also by the way points out there is a considerable marching tradition on both sides of the community in the North. The Orange lads are well known but there's the Ancient Order of Hibernians, I think, amongst others on the Nationalist side. It seems that music is a common pool and both traditions draw from it, both in terms of melody and musicians.
# Posted on December 10th 2007 by the wounded hussar
Re: Lambeg Awareness
Well firstly it is nice to see that I have at least got some interest in the subject.
Replying to:
Regardless of it's beginnings, the Lambeg's recent history seems to be firmly entrenched in sectarian intimidation music.
I suppose without raising to this comment which does seem to be posted without good awareness of the culture surrounding the Lambeg. but this is good as this is why I posted the disscussion point.
I find it hard to agree that the Lambeg seems to be firmly entrenched in sectarian intimidation music as the music that you play in your everyday sessions which you class as Irish or Scottish are infact the same tunes that we play on the fife along side time drumming.
Well I suppose if you hear the Lambeg being played without the fife as we call competition drumming this is loud as it was designed to be heard Like Indian drums over a long distance and is played in a passific rythm as to Identfy the Drummer.
# Posted on December 11th 2007 by undone
Re: Lambeg Awareness
Replying to:
I can think of no other example in which it is currently used.
I along with my father recently played alongside and Orchestra and 200 strong choir at the ryder cup at the K Club and yes as part of the arrangement. There are also various good quality groups such ast Different Drums, The Ulster Scots Orchestra, The Ulster Scots Experience, Etc.. these are all positive uses don't you think
# Posted on December 11th 2007 by undone
Re: Lambeg Awareness
Replying to:
Perhaps if someone more educated than I can show me a picture of one without King Billy on it I might be convinced otherwise.
We currently have five Lambeg Drums within our Club and none actually have a painting of King Billy on it.
The paintings usualy signify some quality of the Drum or the drummer or have some family or historical connections.
I was at Markethill this year the Heart of the Competition Drumming and out of around 80 to 90 drums shown that night I think if my memory is right there may have been two with King Billy on it.
# Posted on December 11th 2007 by undone
Re: Lambeg Awareness
The types of tunes that we play on the Fife alongside the Lambeg that you may or may not know include:
Garyowen,
Parting Glass,
Gold in every Pocket,
Jacksons Return,
Maids in the Green,
Open the Door,
Russian Retreat,
Raggle Taggle Gypsies,
The Irishmans's Hornpipe
Paddy O'Carroll
The Boys of Blue Hill
The Star of County Down
And many many More
# Posted on December 11th 2007 by undone
Re: Lambeg Awareness
I have read alot about the politics of Ireland-Scotland-England... just when I think I understand, it gets fuzzy again...
# Posted on December 11th 2007 by The Merry Highlander
Re: Lambeg Awareness
I had to say something, tried to resist. Just as some politicians tell the truth, there are some Lambeg drummers who try to adopt to a cultural approach to the drum. However traditionally the Lambeg has been to intimidate, from those in AOH or "Kick the Pope" bands, or as it says in the song "Loyal Orange Heroes of Comber" in regard to the lambeg, "Fill your Fenian hearts with fear".
There is light on the horizon. As part of the peace process, along with the "Chuckle Brothers", we are trying to sell two different cultures. Hence the emergency of Roy and the lads with Different Drums, who used to play Eamon Maguire bodhrans, and the need for the 12th and Blackman's Day to become "family" days, of entertainment for all. It has been working in Derry, but Belfast and a number of other areas still have a fair bit to go.
As for the AOH, they should do us all a favour and disband, for musical reasons if nothing else.
And finally, the tunes many bands play may be "Irish" songs familiar to both traditions, but we are not talking reels and jigs here.
# Posted on December 11th 2007 by bodhran bliss
Re: Lambeg Awareness
http://differentdrums.info/
Great link RobBBQ, so nice I had to post it twice.
Merry Christmas everyone, peaceful drumming y'all.
# Posted on December 11th 2007 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Lambeg Awareness
Just in case anyone didn't click:
"...The band has played across the world, for US & Irish presidents to school children - The message is the same; Celebrate that which makes us different and that which bonds us together."
# Posted on December 11th 2007 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Lambeg Awareness
We are talking reels and jigs that's the whole point when playing ie jig time along side traditional Irish/Scottish tunes because that's what we play.
A kick the pope band as you may call it would not actualy be able to play along side a lambeg. So you can't really use that argument.
Well I suppose if you played a Bodhran alongside the Irish Volunteer, or a snipers promise then that may be conitive of secterian don't you think, depends who your playing it to I think.
Coming from a Drumming club in Belfast I must agree like any inner city area Belfast has a lot to learn but has also alot to offer.
And the songs that are listed above are traditionaly played and were played Like any conflicted country there will be some songs which are played that others may not like as you know all cultures African, Scottish, Irish, Chinese have there war songs but you cannot play a song n a drum It is the person playing the drum not the drum.
# Posted on December 11th 2007 by undone
Re: Lambeg Awareness
Bellendean - thank you for your informative posts. I appreciate your efforts to make this drum a less confrontational issue.
However, I am glad Bliss finally joined this conversation since he lives in the middle of the place where there still is a lingering and festering open wound regarding the use of this drum.
Hopefully, more people like you Bellendean will help the transition away from it's current reputation. I s'pose thats why you started this post ya?
# Posted on December 11th 2007 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: Lambeg Awareness
Thank you for your last post it was very much appreciated. I don't know if I have actually made it less confrontational but i'm trying lol
I suppose when you see something as loud as a Lambeg can be being played as hard as you can, well it can be particularly daunting.
But coming from a Protestant area and as enthusiastic about playing the Bodhran, fife, Irish Flute as well as the Lambeg. The culture around the Lambeg scene is not drawn with the same conitations that you would see when the Proddy Boys are swaggering up the road "no offence"
The Bodhran would have taken the same identity as a lambeg in certain areas but we are trying to make the transaction back to what we used to have when there was no propeganda and point scoring.
# Posted on December 11th 2007 by undone
Re: Lambeg Awareness
Sorry didn't finnish that.
A good aul session.
# Posted on December 11th 2007 by undone
Re: Lambeg Awareness
I don't think anyone minds a good loud drum, Bellendean, except when it is pushed through unappreciative neighborhoods behind a sea of black bowler hats and orange sashes.
However, I am very glad to hear you are taking the drum back to more enjoyable, non-sectarian venues. Best of luck to you.
I am curious to see if Bliss has the same take as you regarding the Bodhran. I find it difficult to believe the bodhran and the lambeg having potentially taken the same paths in Norn Iron.
# Posted on December 11th 2007 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: Lambeg Awareness
In my younger days in Glasgow I just seem to remember the Orange marches round our streets -- and in particular our street which had a Catholic church right in the middle of it. The lodge, which both comprised and attracted huge crowds would march the streets round the grounds of the church about three times before marching off to cause mischief elsewhere, all the while the Lambegs booming and the fifes trilling. Tell me that is not intimidation or provocation. Even so, this was quite a spectacle in the late 50's early 60's on a peripheral housing estate in Glasgow, where there wasn't much else happening, besides gang warfare. This particular estate, Drumchapel, was predominantly protestant - about two thirds prod to one third catholic; I myself attended a "non-denominational" school (proddy), though my parents professed no religion. Not good enough for some of my peers, who eyed such non-participation as a prelude to "jumpin' the wa'", and similarly a name like Danny sounded a bit papist. Anyway, sectarianism was not confined to Northern Ireland.
Mostly I'm curious as to the motives behind this thread. After all, I thought this website was mostly, but not exclusively, connected with music played in sessions. Is it a plea for absolution or acceptance?
I think you'll have to do three hail marys before they let you in
# Posted on December 11th 2007 by Alf Tupper
Re: Lambeg Awareness
Anybody playing "The Sniper's Promise" to anyone, at any time, should be stopped, quickly. Even the name should make one ashamed.
And unfortunately "Kick the Pope" bands comprise of thirty flutes, and twenty lambegs.
I once took part in a lambeg competition in Ballee in Ballymena, about 12 years ago. They knew I was a "fenian" drum player (bodhran) but the craic was good, especially when they decided at the speed I was playing the parade would be down Garvaghy Road before anyone noticed
Fortunately some sensible people are trying to change things, and hopefully the Lambeg can fulfill a "cultural" role.
As for the bodhran been seen as belonging to the "other" side, as distinct from Lambeg, I believe this was an invention, one of those "sure the others do the same" arguments. No-one has ever led parades in recent memory celebrating triumphalism by playing bodhrans.
A bit like the 15th August canceling out the 12th. I never even knew about the 15th of August until I was 37. Must be a country thing, like the AOH, who are a very touchy subject with me.
Good luck to you Bellendean, and I hope you succeed in "decriminalising" the Lambeg, for want of another word
# Posted on December 11th 2007 by bodhran bliss
Re: Lambeg Awareness
The lambeg drum at the centre of bowler-hatted, orange-sashed columns always seemed to be a focus in the media coverage which I ever saw of those marches. It is difficult for outsiders to understand why such marches went into areas or were conducted in ways which would surely cause consternation in some neighbourhoods.
The only comparison I could ever imagine would be as if the annual Anzac Day veterans marches here, attended by thousands of returned Australian soldiers from all conflicts, as age permits them, in memory of the very bitter war fought with the Japanese in World War 2, twere to dress up in their khaki diggers outfits with leather bandoliers and slouch hats with emus plumes and accompanied by our highland pipes and drums as well as pith-helmet fife bands parading three times around the Japanese consulate and into any Japanese neighbourhoods! They don’t do that of course, it would be offensive to do so, and probably highly irrelevant but also alienating, to younger Australian-born Japanese who would have no idea or identification with what happened in WW 2 in the Pacific, and sound as Australian as the diggers themselves. The veterans simply commemorate by marching up the main street of the city, which is made available for them for the day, then disband and go to the pub for a lunch and few beers for the rest of the holiday!
Seems to me that lambegs are really good for accompanying marching music. How about get together some ITM marches, there are there, put together a program and have a military tattoo and festival once a year a joint venture between the Irish army and whomever in Northern Ireland, with a nice barbeque, a few beers and a bit of friendly craic. It works a treat.
And can anyone tell me if the British helicopters still hover over people’s rooftops and backyards in the South Armagh area? All afternoon one day, from the top of Slieve Gullion I watched while helicopters paraded in the valleys below all around the mountain stop and hover just at rooftop levels over peoples houses. Horrific! I asked one lady about it on our way out, and she just burst into tears! Got help her if she then had an orange parade past her front door. Geez, give it a break eh.
# Posted on December 11th 2007 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Lambeg Awareness
once again Can i just go back to my original post
The Lambeg Drum like many traditional Irish yes Irish music topics have been used and abused and brought into politics where it has no place.
Helicopters are not isolated to South Armagh If you come down to my house a few nights a week you will be sure to hear one.
But that is not the point we have to stop fighting arguments through our music and allow those who are actually directly envolved break away from those days where propeganda was more important than the truth.
# Posted on December 11th 2007 by undone
Re: Lambeg Awareness
It must be difficult to hear your music, even a lambeg drug,
with a military helicopter banging away twenty metres above your roof for fifteen minutes. What possible purpose does that serve! If that sort of carry-on happened in Australia the government would be voted out of office. No one is allowed to interrupt our ITM here!
# Posted on December 11th 2007 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Lambeg Awareness
Well when we still have nightly attacks and bombs being found in our shopping centres as reasently as two weeks ago I suppose it's something we have to live with.
I wonder is that why they were made so loud so you could compete with the Helicopters :D
# Posted on December 11th 2007 by undone
Re: Lambeg Awareness
Well, I guess the helicopters aren't stopping the bombs in the shopping centres, and the bombs aren't stopping the helicopters either.
Maybe if everyone stopped doing both, and started listening to a few tunes together - then it might stop.
It's a matter of sitting down and studying the tunes and listening to other people's takes and views on how to play along together, after all.
# Posted on December 11th 2007 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Lambeg Awareness
Well I hope "Bannerman" if I was to come down and ask to join in with your wee session some night wither with my Bodrhan, flute, fife or even Lambeg you wouldn't turn me away sure that would be a shame.
# Posted on December 11th 2007 by undone
Re: Lambeg Awareness
"Duijera Dubh" That is exactly the it I'm glad we got to that point. It's about learning and building on the simularities and not the differences. And I'm sure if you blattered away the hardest at most things and didn't take the time to get the best out of your instrument then there wouldn't be a session.
# Posted on December 11th 2007 by undone
Re: Lambeg Awareness
A lambeg drum banging along without a tune for company would be a strange sight indeed. All bang, no joy.
# Posted on December 11th 2007 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Lambeg Awareness
Can you take the air out of those lambeg drums and just beat the skin along with the tunes, would it go better?
# Posted on December 11th 2007 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Lambeg Awareness
And yet that is what you see all the time when you see them on the news blattering away, but when they are played traditionaly along with a fife or pipes or even an Orchestra then like any instrument they fit in really well.
# Posted on December 11th 2007 by undone
Re: Lambeg Awareness
www.youtube.com/watch?v=e_VdSI9ngkA
Duijera Dubh
Have a wee look at this on you tube and this is even without music tell me what you think.
# Posted on December 11th 2007 by undone
Re: Lambeg Awareness
There is so much time and effort put into making and the upkeep of the drum just to let the skins go lose.
Some of the best skins are kept to put on the drums and then the thiker skins with a few flaws are used for Bodrhans im not saying them all but it would just ruin the time and effort put in and change the whole dynamic of the instrument
It's like saying sure can you not just use a few flutes to blatter it with
# Posted on December 11th 2007 by undone
Re: Lambeg Awareness
Yep, the daikos are great, we have them direct from Japan regularly, excellent stuff, and no politics in sight. You tube has lots of clips under 'daiko'.
Sounds like what is needed is for a unique Ulster group to take up the challenge and fuse ITM with that sort of drumming, take in on tour, make some CDs...
It may make the lambeg used in orange marches look a bit of an anachronism, although I think they'll be plenty to keep it up.
Maybe a migration infusion of about 6 million cashed-up Japanese settlers to buy up your real estate and bring in a completely different mass cultural view to the possibilities of daiko drumming rather than politico-lambeging would be a quick fix.
# Posted on December 11th 2007 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Lambeg Awareness
"Can you take the air out of those lambeg drums ... "
I have no doubt if you did that and played it in a vacuum the results would be very satisfactory.
# Posted on December 11th 2007 by lazyhound
Re: Lambeg Awareness
The link I supplied on you tube "is" an ulster group using Lambegs to play Heartbeat on of the men in the clip is Stephen who I work closely with, they have released a fe CD's themselves.
# Posted on December 11th 2007 by undone
Re: Lambeg Awareness
So what tunes do they play along with, Bellendean?
# Posted on December 11th 2007 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Lambeg Awareness
The group is called Different Drums they have been posted above by other people
http://differentdrums.info/
Have a wee look at their site should be interesting. Not too much TIM but its there.
But there is more and more groups starting to look at TIM versions because that is what traditional accompanied the Lambeg.
But unless we have a wee bit of awareness of the culture then I suppose it will not take off, you just need to look at some of the posts on this strain to see there is a lot of work ahead of us.
# Posted on December 11th 2007 by undone
Re: Lambeg Awareness
Interesting review:
http://www.differentdrums.info/epk/reviews.htm
Well, I hope it all works for you, to make things better.
Will it stop those damn helicopters and the bombs!
# Posted on December 11th 2007 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Lambeg Awareness
Who knows lol well sure as they play their wee games sure we can play our wee sessions I wonder who will have the best time at the end of the day
# Posted on December 11th 2007 by undone
Re: Lambeg Awareness
I'm going to write to the government here and get them to send in the helicopters to buzz those car hoons that parade up and down the street drowning out my music with their doof-doof rubbish! They're not even the same religion as me for god's sake.
# Posted on December 11th 2007 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Lambeg Awareness
And I bet I know who they vote for too! Anyone playing that sort of music couldn't be trusted! The dirty traitors.
# Posted on December 11th 2007 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Lambeg Awareness
They've got to be foreigners. Just look at them will you.
# Posted on December 11th 2007 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Lambeg Awareness
And you gave me a hard time
# Posted on December 11th 2007 by undone
Re: Lambeg Awareness
Just for the folks who might not know:
http://www.drumdojo.com/world/ireland/lambeg.htm
# Posted on December 11th 2007 by RobBBQ
Re: Lambeg Awareness
It's just all thumping good craic, Bellendean, eh.
# Posted on December 12th 2007 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Lambeg Awareness
Interesting link, RobBBQ. Bellendean, why don't you try kangaroo skin for a lambeg. You'll get more bounce out of them for sure. Talk to McKnowall about it, it is not a joke actually.
# Posted on December 12th 2007 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Lambeg Awareness
The lambeg is a horrible noisy beast played generally by people who could be similarly described.
Goodnight!
# Posted on December 12th 2007 by mcknowall
Re: Lambeg Awareness
On the other hand, maybe don't ask McKnowall.
# Posted on December 12th 2007 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Lambeg Awareness
mcknowall, it's a helluva lot of kangaroo skin.
# Posted on December 12th 2007 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Lambeg Awareness
Well someone has just described themselves there so not worth much more of a response eh!
# Posted on December 12th 2007 by undone
Re: Lambeg Awareness
Give it a go anyway, Blldn.
# Posted on December 12th 2007 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Lambeg Awareness
"Regardless of it's beginnings, the Lambeg's recent history seems to be firmly entrenched in sectarian intimidation music."
"Recently", here, should be taken to mean: "at least since 1795 " [when the orange order was founded].
"The lambeg is a vital part of Irish musical tradition and history..."
No one can seriously suggest that this belongs to a "musical" tradition! It does belong to a sinister political movement with close associations with the British white-power movement.
# Posted on December 12th 2007 by whistleblower
Re: Lambeg Awareness
Whistle, I think the point that Bellendean is trying to make, correct me if I am wrong anyone, is that the big drums (similar to Scottish highland drums) were once part of Irish military tradition. *That* tradition became extinct for all historic purposes in 1601 at the Battle of Kinsale. Prior to that battle, there was an epic march of thousands of Irish troops under O'Neill and O'Donnell from Northern Ireland to Kinsale in the dead of winter! Those armies were no doubt accompanied by pipes and drums. What sort of pipes, what sort of drums, remains an undocumented fact, mainly because the Irish lost that one battle, and history was re-written. War pipes were outlawed (hence the uilleann pipes evolution), and whatever happened with drums we don't know, by the look of it.
It is the word "lambeg" that is irritating people, I feel, and the association of that with politics in Northern Ireland in historical memory today. Does Bellendean have a point actually?
Put aside the politics and give the man a chance. If he can't come to the party, then he should not, perhaps have started the thread.
# Posted on December 12th 2007 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Lambeg Awareness
You see, Bellendean, it can be easier to be an outsider to these situations, to have a *different* view.
# Posted on December 12th 2007 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Lambeg Awareness
Whistle, the important issue in this thread really is - in my humble observation - is that the northern Irish *protestant* people - represented in this case by *lambeg* drummers, are wanting you to recognise that they are Irish.
Whistle, these descendants have been in Northern Ireland for longer than the European *history* of my country - Australia - exits, by about double!
It will have to be let go sooner or later, and it will. Hopefully your descendants will still afford to be in the area to enjoy what you now enoy. Stop the fighting, play the music - together, and change where change invites you.
# Posted on December 12th 2007 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Lambeg Awareness
Bin lids intimidate me do they intimidate you
# Posted on December 12th 2007 by undone
Re: Lambeg Awareness
You see, whistle - why is Bllndn talking like he is? What is he on about.
# Posted on December 12th 2007 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Lambeg Awareness
A point to be made here as I appreciate peoples opinion we need to move on we have such a shared culture and history, I'm sorry but if you believe that even half of the session tunes you play orginates in Ireland then I think you need to relook at what you are playing.
For I am sure clattered right accross your tunes are decades of influences world wide even the Bodhran can not claim to be uninfluenced by European and African culture.
# Posted on December 12th 2007 by undone
Re: Lambeg Awareness
Last time I was there, I stayed in a thatched maybe a *tourist* cottage in Ardara - I spent the nights listening to the flying wind in front of my peat fire, provided by courtesy of yer man, and listentin' to the music of my choice. I was in Ireland, it does not matter whether I was a catholic or protestant, I experience the same thing as you all.
# Posted on December 12th 2007 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Lambeg Awareness
You see now, Bllndn is saying he is Irish, he shares the culture of the land which he surely does, but he has some redefinition within himself of it - is it not worth listening to?
# Posted on December 12th 2007 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Lambeg Awareness
How can I not be Irish I live in Northern Ireland you see we go back once again to politics. The Lambeg is so big that you can not miss it though people can't see it if you know what I mean. Come one of course things change in a conflicted society and some people graple on to certain sides.
Once I wouldn't have played the Bodhran or the Lambeg but like some of the good friends i've met over the past few years play both.
# Posted on December 12th 2007 by undone
Re: Lambeg Awareness
Blldn, they ^see* it, they don't want to accept it, I think is the point. Yes, it has been conflicted with politics.
Bllndn wants dearly, to be accepted by you as Irish in the context that he can offer, and offer well.
In Australia - I'm sorry about this apparent irrelevance - if you were born in Australia, you are Australian, and you may play whatever music you may wish to share with those born or who come here.
# Posted on December 12th 2007 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Lambeg Awareness
I can honestly say this is not about being Irish or not, looking through the links on the session website there is quite a few non irish musicians and tunes, and I am deffenately not pleeing for acceptance.
At the end of the day we should be able to look past the few negative images and find out what lies below.
# Posted on December 12th 2007 by undone
Re: Lambeg Awareness
*non-Irish musicians*, Blldn? you are definitely not pleading of course, I'm sorry if that is the impression I gave, it was not meant. But yes, negatives could be removed with generosity on both sides of any argument.
# Posted on December 12th 2007 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Lambeg Awareness
I’m not a fan of just making up history in order to appease. Large drums were not used in battle, they are too unwieldy and near impossible to carry long distances. Side drums are more likely to fit the bill. Gaelic Highland warriors who marched with pipers must be distinguished from the highland regiments of the English army founded in the 19th century. The latter used bass drums in their marching bands for military parades. No actual evidence has been presented that large bass drums of the lambeg variety were ever used in Ireland by Gaelic people. In the middle ages the raiding parties marched into the Pale led by torch-bearers at night and by papers by day, no mention is made of their being accompanied by drums of any kind. There is also scant evidence for the use of the Bodhran or similar frame-drums in Irish warfare. If the Gaelic soldiers used any drum at all it is most likely to be the side drum used across northern Europe.
# Posted on December 12th 2007 by whistleblower
Re: Lambeg Awareness
Have a look at the link below, this happened this year on the 12 August 2007 in the centre of our Capital City.
Don't take this in a bad way look at it for what it is and the only point I am trying to make here is that because there is a few bad images doesn't mean that is the way it always was or has to be.
http://home.btconnect.com/shankillmirror/pdf/118/SM%20Ed%20118%20p01.pdf
# Posted on December 12th 2007 by undone
Re: Lambeg Awareness
I must agree with whistleblower in this one I believe that the origination of the rope drum as what it is would have been played like a side drum. But there has to be a point here too the bass drum orginally would have been roped and was used to keep time and played with either a wooden ball mallet or a skin covered mallet.
# Posted on December 12th 2007 by undone
Re: Lambeg Awareness
That should be "by pipers by day", not "papers"!
# Posted on December 12th 2007 by whistleblower
Re: Lambeg Awareness
There has also been suggestions that it was used to direct movements just like a trumpet, thus giving it a long distance but these would of certainly been European in origian some people suggest Dutch
# Posted on December 12th 2007 by undone
Re: Lambeg Awareness
Going back to the Bodhran it has been suggested that a simalar type of frame drum and beater was used in the highlands for hunting and then used later for music
# Posted on December 12th 2007 by undone
Re: Lambeg Awareness
No problem on the typo, Whistle. Understood.
Bllndn, don't you think that article is more about an eye for an eye than anything else?
Whistle, I hear that you don't like to make up the history at all, but what are y'er sources for those -very interesting I must say - assertions.
Mate, the big drums came from somewhere, and they're still used to great emotive effect today in highland bands. Mate, I have as much native Irish as Hugenout background as possible, but I can still appreciate the effect that might have been sought to have been achieved some four hundred years ago. Let's be glad we didn't have to make the sacrifices that those poor b*stds did at the order of the landlords.
# Posted on December 12th 2007 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Lambeg Awareness
Bllndn, don't you think that article is more about an eye for an eye than anything else?
I didn't understand what you ment ?
# Posted on December 12th 2007 by undone
Re: Lambeg Awareness
Bllndn, one side is just having a go at the other isn't it?
# Posted on December 12th 2007 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Lambeg Awareness
Guys, if you have no more to say now, after a time, I am going to take my leave for a time, and thank you for your great company and craic. I will be back in a short while.
# Posted on December 12th 2007 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Lambeg Awareness
It's not the article really it's the significants of some of the posts that have been submitted on the thread, about onesided views especially around the Lambeg, just because someone has witnessed an event. That does not mean that it's normal practise.
And If I am only aloud to turn up at a session as long as I leave my Lambeg at home just because someone got annoyed at the bin lid rattlling.
# Posted on December 12th 2007 by undone
Re: Lambeg Awareness
Blldn - I told ye - do a military tattoo - it is ideally made for Irish Army/big drum type exhibitions - like the Edinburgh Tattoo. Someone will do this one day, man, and you will miss out if ye don't listen, for fecks sake.
# Posted on December 12th 2007 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Lambeg Awareness
Duijera Dubh writes: " you don't like to make up the history at all, but what are y'er sources for those -very interesting I must say - assertions."
I think the description of the pipers leading raids on the Pale comes from Giraldus Cambrensis. The rest is from many years reading medieval and early modern Irish historical sources, and from seeing that many of the claims of Irish cultural ‘historians’ have no foundation in the sources. (Incidentally, I don’t think the great pipes were banned in Ireland. They were played quite widely in Ireland into the 20th century. And bellows pipes that were the predecessors of the uilleann pipes have been in Ireland for many hundreds of years).
My point about not making up history is that for some time there has been a movement towards rehabilitating the orange ‘culture’ and making it seem more civilised, with a general disregard for historical truth. There is the Ulster-Scots movement (which claims that various northern protestant dialects constitute a separate ‘language’, a claim rejected by all academic linguists) has attempted to show that some derivative of Scottish culture, rather than anti-Catholic sectarianism, drives the orange movement. And a concomitant attitude of appeasement has occurred in Irish culture, attempting to show that orangism is not sectarian in origin, but has something in common with Irish culture. Needless to say, a brief look at 19th century history puts this attitude to rest. I don’t believe that all musical heritages are equally valuable. I think it would be best if Northern Ireland republican sectarian ‘rebel’ music & sectarian orange music went the way of Ku Klux Klan music & Nazi propaganda music, and was consigned permanently to the trash-can of history.
# Posted on December 12th 2007 by whistleblower
Re: Lambeg Awareness
Our whole community is based on this recently devised word "sectarianism" we do not live in a pluralist community and just by your comments and by you thinking your idea is right confirms this theory.
If we just rubbish the past 300 years history and don't learn from it then what will happen a generation down the line sure it will rear it's head again.
Again the reason for this disscussion is to build on the shared identity of the Lambeg and not to be "sectarian" about it.
I do agree there does need to be clarity around Orange culture and Ulster Scots culture and the two do meet "but" Ulster scots culture is not purely Orangeism although Orangeism as a Catholic reformed faith did change signifacntly due to the influence of scottish presbyterianism. And the links between the islands are unmistakable evident in ITM.
# Posted on December 13th 2007 by undone
Re: Lambeg Awareness
Out of interest i'm not too sure but would you let know where the Ulster Scots state that there language is made up of different "protestant" dialects because i'm not too sure if that's the case. Could be wrong tho!
# Posted on December 13th 2007 by undone
Re: Lambeg Awareness
“Our whole community is based on this recently devised word "sectarianism" we do not live in a pluralist community and just by your comments and by you thinking your idea is right confirms this theory.”
Surely we all believe our beliefs to be true, that’s what makes them beliefs! Just because a word was only recently used to describe a situation does not mean that it was not applicable all along. And the British press since the 19th century has noted that “the Orangeman wishes to see the Catholic crushed under foot”. (quoted in a book called something like Scottish Loyalism, from the Daily Mail in early 19th century if I remember correctly.) Pluralism is not always a good idea. Look at any Orange, Al Kida, or neo-Nazi website, should these people just be appeased and tolerated? Wishing to see the end of a sectarian movement which has anti-Catholicism at its root is not itself a sectarian attitude. Not all old traditions are worth preserving. (I mean, we don’t miss the Nazis, do we?)
The ‘Ulster Scots’ machine does say the language is mainly a protestant phenomenon, it’s not important. My point is that this was really a political fraud, inventing a ‘language’, and getting funding for dubious organizations, even though linguists failed to find one speaker of a distinct language, but only some local dialects of English. It is not a distinct ‘language’, unlike Broad Scots which apparently fits the criteria. And no one in politics dares to say what everyone knows, this was a scam to extract money from the state.
# Posted on December 13th 2007 by whistleblower
Re: Lambeg Awareness
If you don't know your history, you don't know who you are.
Ignoring history, or cultures we don't like, is total ignorance. We must recognize our history, appreciate it, and learn from it, without perpetuating the evils of it.
I can't stand to see people denying their history because it's not PC. That's total sh*te, and it leads to the death of knowledge and understanding.
If you're clinging to history to be an ass, then you're in the wrong, obviously. This is not rocket science.
If you celebrate your history to help teach the valuable lessons learned by it, then you're doing the right thing.
Pretending like Republicanism and Orangeism never existed by ignoring their music is asinine and childish. It's like an ostrich at the first sign of danger.
Be an adult. Be a grown up. Celebrate history and learn from it. Hate has no place in education and celebration.
# Posted on December 13th 2007 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Lambeg Awareness
“If you don't know your history, you don't know who you are.”
I’m not suggesting we stop studying history. But studying history doesn’t necessarily go hand in hand with admiring far-right quasi-religious sectarian movements.
“I can't stand to see people denying their history because it's not PC.”
I’m all for studying history. Surely the ‘politically correct’ view is that all cultures are equally great! This is the pernicious view. Political correctness in Ireland and Britain says that every cultural element within society is simply wonderful. It’s important to understand the past, and very important to find out what actually happened; and important not to make things up for political purposes as in the case of the revisionary history popular in Ireland today (which panders to the PC view). The “the orange order is lovely” view common among Dublin politicians is an example of PC in action.
“Pretending like Republicanism and Orangeism never existed by ignoring their music is asinine and childish.”
It is lamentable that they exist, but I never pretended they didn’t. And I said that their ‘music’ was awful and completely without value, not just that I’m ignoring it. My plea was for this sectarian music to die a death like KKK music. Surely that’s not too controversial.
“Celebrate history and learn from it.”
“Celebrate history?” What does that mean? For instance, do Americans celebrate the Vietnam war? ‘cos they really shouldn’t. The instinct to celebrate all of its past has led many Americans to have a remarkably inaccurate view of their own history (not that different from the false histories taught in fascist states.) If celebrating one’s history means rejoicing in every evil perpetrated by one’s ancestors it’s not something I agree with. Understanding history is another thing. Looking clearly at history is something that rarely happens in popular culture (and is becoming increasingly rare in academia), and celebrating the persecution and extermination of Catholics seems further to impede proper learning and understanding of history.
# Posted on December 13th 2007 by whistleblower
Re: Lambeg Awareness
Never mind traditions, think musically. A Lambeg in a session? John McEnroe expressions come to mind.
# Posted on December 14th 2007 by bodhran bliss
Re: Lambeg Awareness
Whistleb, your views are sound, logically and in sentiment.
I understand, most would, no doubt at all.
My own country had these divisions, Catholic Protestant for a long time. Not sure what happened, I think the heat burned it out of everyone, who then realised we're all in this together, even if we don't think the same.
One is tempted to say that Catholics were put on this earth to shoulder the burden of the rest of the world's "misguidance".
Things will move on though, what you will get in the end in the American or Australian amalgam. Who will mellow out in the end. Whose music survives?
# Posted on December 16th 2007 by Duijera Dubh