At the last session they played a tune that sounded very Jewish. I was not sitting in the circle at the time, but enjoying a conversation. We noticed the tune sounded very Jewish and started talking about how Jewish music had an influence on all kinds of folk music around the world. I never did catch the name of the tune.
I came here to do a search. I searched on the word Jewish but only one tune came up. It doesn't sound like the right tune. So I'm wondering if you know of any Irish tunes with a strong Jewish influence.
When asked about the origin of the Irish harp I recall people saying that it came to the island from King David.
Also there are loads of tunes in minor or modal minor keys that fit fairly easily into some of the old Kinor dirges.
You might enjoy playing The Temple House and the Star of Munster, also the Morning Star, another minor keyed tune. There is also an old theme which today is called The Star Above The Garter.
The hard thing to find, I notice, is common ground on time sigs and rhythms, but a band like Black Velvet ( modern Israeli celtic outfit which also sometimes features Uilleann pipes in their line up ) comes mighty close.
The sound track is very nice, provided by the band Ceilizemer (half of which is an ITM band called Driving with Fergus). It's a mix of ITM and Irish inflected Klezmer. Also be sure to notice those bottles of kosher Guinness, with the Hebrew labels...
onga bucharesti - de dannan (written by andy statman I believe, a bluegrass mandolin player who became an amazing kelzmer clarinettist - so I understand anyhow).
Is Ireland the only country that has a musical instrument as its national emblem.
And is it really the star of david on the flag of Ulster? (I think its the Ulster flag anyway)
Your link strikes me as harmless enough, KML, I mean, if people want to go for that, why not ? On the other hand, I find the Lost Tribes lot quite sinister. They remind me of that line in Paul Simon's song 'The Boxer', "a man sees what he wants to see and disregards the rest". They bend a quarter of the evidence to suit their story, and completely ignore the other three quarter which doesn't fit. Didn't they do a lot of damage to the archaeology at Tara digging about for anything to strengthen their fantasies ?
Fair point Wolf. But like The Boxer my link is also someone seeing what they want to see, but mostly harmless in this case. The only harm is similar to when people believe alternative medicines are actually better than conventional treatments.
Fundamentally, it's a philosophical issue, IMO. The way I see it, all we have are stories we tell ourselves, and to say that one story is better than another, or even truer than another, is very subjective.
However, there's the category of stories which require evidence to support them, as in a Court, where the police are asked to support the charge, or in science, where there is need for evidence to support the theory.
History is quite tricky, because there are so many 'truths', so many stories running in parallel, and so many groups with vested interests trying to rewrite the narrative to suit their own agendas.
You want conspiracy theory? I decided this conversation wasn't going anywhere so I popped over to google to search on Irish/Jewish tunes and google has already indexed this topic and it ranks first in the list. Creepy!
As one who father is Jewish was and was raised in Judiaism, went to Hebrew School and was even Bat Mitzvah'd. That website flashback me into the scene in Blazing Saddles with Mell Brooks as one of the 'Lost Tribes of Isreal' in full plains Native American dress speaking Yiddish (which at the time I fully understood) All I can say is Oy Vey!
" don't know what Tribe I'm decendent of although my father is a cohanim. Live long and prosper."
There has been a long debate in my family whether or not we are cohanim. There are a lot of graves in my family with the cohanim sign on them. There were ancesters that were among the orignal followers of the Bal Shem Tov. Live long and prosper.
You know, it doesn' t surprise me that two peoples from tribal backgrounds who have been dispised by others should find common ground an share a bond. Long live our friendship!
I hear "Flatbush Waltz " played by Celtic bands the contra dances, and it fits in nicely. So nicely i wonder if I think that is Klezmer just because I heard the Klezmatics play it first. Either way, it is just my opinion, but both traditions have good tunes, and they can blend very well
This thread reminds me of my Bar Mitzva
Jewish music and dancing for most of it, but then came a bit of the Irish stuff, to please my Dad's half of the family.
I'll bet it pleased the Jewish side as well!
Btw, "Cohanim" is the plural. "Cohen" is the singular. Hence the extremely common surname.
Oh, and Guinness is always Kosher. Even if it hasn't got Hebrew writing on it.(?!)
the flatbush waltz was written by andy statman (see my post above). I'm currently playing quite a lot with a klezmer fiddle player and it's proving quite interesting to see how my irish style contrasts and/or conflicts with her klezmer style. The result is probably a massacre of both traditions
I used the plural just to distinguish it from the surname "Cohan." That's an "Ellis Island name" - my grandmother had that last name although that was not the name in the old country and they were not decended from AAron.
Pirate Fiddler - nice to meet another player from the same background. You too, Joe CSS.
"Pirate Fiddler - nice to meet another player from the same background. You too, Joe CSS.
Also, I've played Jay Ungar tunes at sessions"
On the subject of Jay Unger, a fellow fiddler friend insists that he is Irish and that Ashokan Farewell is based on ITM. I can't find *anything* to substantiate this. Is there anyone out there that can comment on this?
All I can find is what he says about himself. "A kid from the Bronx" I think he may be Jewish.
I wanted to share something with all of you. A story about a late friend of mine Ian Abramovitch a bodhran player of some renown out here in Southern California. He was quiet in demand to play bodhran on albums for local ITM bands. At one recording session there were many Irish musicians with the O' prefix to their surnames.
At the end of the recording session a guy went around to get the musicians name for the liner notes. When he came to Ian, Ian jokingly said "Ian O'Abramovitch". Well the guy wasn't really paying attention because Ian's name ended up being Ian O'Abramovitch on the liner notes!
Irish/Jewish tunes
Irish/Jewish tunes
At the last session they played a tune that sounded very Jewish. I was not sitting in the circle at the time, but enjoying a conversation. We noticed the tune sounded very Jewish and started talking about how Jewish music had an influence on all kinds of folk music around the world. I never did catch the name of the tune.
I came here to do a search. I searched on the word Jewish but only one tune came up. It doesn't sound like the right tune. So I'm wondering if you know of any Irish tunes with a strong Jewish influence.
# Posted on December 10th 2007 by sbhikes
Re: Irish/Jewish tunes
Not in the least surprised!
When asked about the origin of the Irish harp I recall people saying that it came to the island from King David.
Also there are loads of tunes in minor or modal minor keys that fit fairly easily into some of the old Kinor dirges.
You might enjoy playing The Temple House and the Star of Munster, also the Morning Star, another minor keyed tune. There is also an old theme which today is called The Star Above The Garter.
The hard thing to find, I notice, is common ground on time sigs and rhythms, but a band like Black Velvet ( modern Israeli celtic outfit which also sometimes features Uilleann pipes in their line up ) comes mighty close.
# Posted on December 10th 2007 by Schlongbow
Re: Irish/Jewish tunes
Try this tune:
http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/445
# Posted on December 10th 2007 by davydd
Re: Irish/Jewish tunes
And here is a direct link to the real thing
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=llBShCEkMcM
Oh and happy Channukah to yis
# Posted on December 10th 2007 by Schlongbow
Re: Irish/Jewish tunes
I've heard Kevin Burke play that tune in concert, and tell the story about it.
Check out this film, Shalom Ireland:
http://www.shalomireland.com/
The sound track is very nice, provided by the band Ceilizemer (half of which is an ITM band called Driving with Fergus). It's a mix of ITM and Irish inflected Klezmer. Also be sure to notice those bottles of kosher Guinness, with the Hebrew labels...
# Posted on December 10th 2007 by Keith Dubinsky
Re: Irish/Jewish tunes
'Klezmer hornpipes' on Half Set in Harlem by De Danann.
# Posted on December 10th 2007 by Henk Bos
Re: Irish/Jewish tunes
onga bucharesti - de dannan (written by andy statman I believe, a bluegrass mandolin player who became an amazing kelzmer clarinettist - so I understand anyhow).
# Posted on December 10th 2007 by pavlf
Re: Irish/Jewish tunes
Is Ireland the only country that has a musical instrument as its national emblem.
And is it really the star of david on the flag of Ulster? (I think its the Ulster flag anyway)
# Posted on December 10th 2007 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Irish/Jewish tunes
Was it The Goy in the Bap?
# Posted on December 10th 2007 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: Irish/Jewish tunes
Here's a Klezmer piece you can treat as a reel:
http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display.php/7881
# Posted on December 10th 2007 by Bleedin' Heart
Re: Irish/Jewish tunes
You can try this one too - fits nicely ahead of Majofis
http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/3749
# Posted on December 10th 2007 by stripthewillow
Re: Irish/Jewish tunes
Star of David on the Ulster flag? Got conspiracy?
http://jahtruth.co.uk/uflag.htm
# Posted on December 10th 2007 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Irish/Jewish tunes
HA! That link is hilarious.
# Posted on December 10th 2007 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Irish/Jewish tunes
SWFLF - where did you dig up this site?
See if you like one, also rather "unusual", by someone I used to know:
http://www.kensor.net/mas/
# Posted on December 10th 2007 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: Irish/Jewish tunes
Your link strikes me as harmless enough, KML, I mean, if people want to go for that, why not ? On the other hand, I find the Lost Tribes lot quite sinister. They remind me of that line in Paul Simon's song 'The Boxer', "a man sees what he wants to see and disregards the rest". They bend a quarter of the evidence to suit their story, and completely ignore the other three quarter which doesn't fit. Didn't they do a lot of damage to the archaeology at Tara digging about for anything to strengthen their fantasies ?
# Posted on December 10th 2007 by wolfbird
Re: Irish/Jewish tunes
Fair point Wolf. But like The Boxer my link is also someone seeing what they want to see, but mostly harmless in this case. The only harm is similar to when people believe alternative medicines are actually better than conventional treatments.
# Posted on December 10th 2007 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: Irish/Jewish tunes
Fundamentally, it's a philosophical issue, IMO. The way I see it, all we have are stories we tell ourselves, and to say that one story is better than another, or even truer than another, is very subjective.
However, there's the category of stories which require evidence to support them, as in a Court, where the police are asked to support the charge, or in science, where there is need for evidence to support the theory.
History is quite tricky, because there are so many 'truths', so many stories running in parallel, and so many groups with vested interests trying to rewrite the narrative to suit their own agendas.
# Posted on December 10th 2007 by wolfbird
Re: Irish/Jewish tunes
SWFL, every word of that website is true. As one of the chosen people, I know.
# Posted on December 11th 2007 by bodhran bliss
Re: Irish/Jewish tunes
Whew. Thanks Mr. bb. I'm a conspiracy connoisseur but even that was a bit much.
# Posted on December 11th 2007 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Irish/Jewish tunes
I don't know what Tribe I'm decendent of although my father is a cohanim. Live long and prosper.
# Posted on December 11th 2007 by grumblingoldwoman
Re: Irish/Jewish tunes
You want conspiracy theory? I decided this conversation wasn't going anywhere so I popped over to google to search on Irish/Jewish tunes and google has already indexed this topic and it ranks first in the list. Creepy!
# Posted on December 11th 2007 by sbhikes
Re: Irish/Jewish tunes
So am I the only one who knows "The Kosher Reel" ?
# Posted on December 11th 2007 by Kenny
Re: Irish/Jewish tunes
As one who father is Jewish was and was raised in Judiaism, went to Hebrew School and was even Bat Mitzvah'd. That website flashback me into the scene in Blazing Saddles with Mell Brooks as one of the 'Lost Tribes of Isreal' in full plains Native American dress speaking Yiddish (which at the time I fully understood) All I can say is Oy Vey!
Herself
# Posted on December 11th 2007 by Pirate-Fiddler
Re: Irish/Jewish tunes
" don't know what Tribe I'm decendent of although my father is a cohanim. Live long and prosper."
There has been a long debate in my family whether or not we are cohanim. There are a lot of graves in my family with the cohanim sign on them. There were ancesters that were among the orignal followers of the Bal Shem Tov. Live long and prosper.
You know, it doesn' t surprise me that two peoples from tribal backgrounds who have been dispised by others should find common ground an share a bond. Long live our friendship!
I love when musical traditions unite!
# Posted on December 11th 2007 by Pirate-Fiddler
Re: Irish/Jewish tunes
I hear "Flatbush Waltz " played by Celtic bands the contra dances, and it fits in nicely. So nicely i wonder if I think that is Klezmer just because I heard the Klezmatics play it first. Either way, it is just my opinion, but both traditions have good tunes, and they can blend very well
# Posted on December 12th 2007 by toumi
Re: Irish/Jewish tunes
This thread reminds me of my Bar Mitzva
Jewish music and dancing for most of it, but then came a bit of the Irish stuff, to please my Dad's half of the family.
I'll bet it pleased the Jewish side as well!
# Posted on December 12th 2007 by Joe CSS
Re: Irish/Jewish tunes
Btw, "Cohanim" is the plural. "Cohen" is the singular. Hence the extremely common surname.
Oh, and Guinness is always Kosher. Even if it hasn't got Hebrew writing on it.(?!)
# Posted on December 12th 2007 by Joe CSS
Re: Irish/Jewish tunes
the flatbush waltz was written by andy statman (see my post above). I'm currently playing quite a lot with a klezmer fiddle player and it's proving quite interesting to see how my irish style contrasts and/or conflicts with her klezmer style. The result is probably a massacre of both traditions
# Posted on December 12th 2007 by pavlf
Re: Irish/Jewish tunes
I used the plural just to distinguish it from the surname "Cohan." That's an "Ellis Island name" - my grandmother had that last name although that was not the name in the old country and they were not decended from AAron.
Pirate Fiddler - nice to meet another player from the same background. You too, Joe CSS.
Also, I've played Jay Ungar tunes at sessions.
# Posted on December 13th 2007 by grumblingoldwoman
Re: Irish/Jewish tunes
Anyone want to start debating the influence of Klezmer musicians on ( American ) jazz ?
That's a whole other extra subject.
# Posted on December 13th 2007 by Guernsey Pete
Re: Irish/Jewish tunes
What about "Shalom Aleichem" on Tony McManus' <Ceol More>?
# Posted on December 14th 2007 by bdh
Re: Irish/Jewish tunes
"Pirate Fiddler - nice to meet another player from the same background. You too, Joe CSS.
Also, I've played Jay Ungar tunes at sessions"
On the subject of Jay Unger, a fellow fiddler friend insists that he is Irish and that Ashokan Farewell is based on ITM. I can't find *anything* to substantiate this. Is there anyone out there that can comment on this?
All I can find is what he says about himself. "A kid from the Bronx" I think he may be Jewish.
Thanks
# Posted on December 14th 2007 by Pirate-Fiddler
Re: Irish/Jewish tunes
I wanted to share something with all of you. A story about a late friend of mine Ian Abramovitch a bodhran player of some renown out here in Southern California. He was quiet in demand to play bodhran on albums for local ITM bands. At one recording session there were many Irish musicians with the O' prefix to their surnames.
At the end of the recording session a guy went around to get the musicians name for the liner notes. When he came to Ian, Ian jokingly said "Ian O'Abramovitch". Well the guy wasn't really paying attention because Ian's name ended up being Ian O'Abramovitch on the liner notes!
There's an Irish/Jewish connection for you!
# Posted on January 11th 2008 by Pirate-Fiddler