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8-guage sawed-off aimed at your feet ~ DANCE OR LOOSE THEM!!! 8-)
8-guage sawed-off aimed at your feet ~ DANCE OR LOOSE THEM!!!
Alright, WHY NOT? You play 'dance music', even if it might be cr*p for dancing to. But WHY? What is it about 'dance' that puts you off giving it a try? Have you tried and had a bad experience? Do you fear it? Do you fear making an a*s of yourself? Why not give it a try? What is it about dance that you don't like? What preconceptions or expectations do you have? And if you really do feel a hate or dread of it, WHY?
If you have something that has happened in your past, direct or second hand, that has built a phobia in you about dance, mild or severe, please, I'd like to hear the tale. I love dance music, but it isn't limited to that, but I really love the dance in the music, when the person playing the music is also dancing it with expression and lift, the kind that electrifies the dance floor and that moves you in a way that you can't keep still, even if it is just keeping time with your foot.
My tale, short, I promise, a very well known musician, worldwide, and I'd been to concerts that featured him. I noticed that while others played, most, people were moved to move, feet tapped, faces smiled. When this person came on to do a solo there wasn't a movement in the place, and not bright smiles like with others.
Then, we happened to be in the same place, music and dance in Clare, and he was sitting in with the locals and playing, and he wasn't showing off. He was also up dancing as well. I gained a sudden appreciation of his music. It was supurb, uplifting, great, inspirational. If he could have captured that on any of the many albums he is featured on I'd own it right out and it would be a favourite.
So, there's the difference, but this is about the 'dance' in 'dance music'... He danced, and was pretty damned good, but I'd have enjoyed dancing opposite him just for the smile and craic.
Re: 8-guage sawed-off aimed at your feet ~ DANCE OR LOOSE THEM!!!
I'm with you on this one it’s been interesting to teach musicians to learn to dance over the years with some it’s like watching a light bulb come on in their heads.
I wonder if there would be fewer questions about rhythm and phrasing on this site if more people did dance.
Re: 8-guage sawed-off aimed at your feet ~ DANCE OR LOOSE THEM!!!
I love dancîng... and been playing for dancers for over 30 years now... and for me it's the spirit of this music. I like hearing most of today's bands, playing fast, with some awesome new tunes...but for me it's so much more pleasant to listen to the music played with a good tempo and with a dancing - how can you say it in english - lilt ? my greatest pleasure is to play for dancers and have them dancing the correct dance without my telling them what it is - means I'm giving the correct swing... And I try to teach my pupils to play with good musical movement, that for the dance, and not just to impress the audience...
Re: 8-guage sawed-off aimed at your feet ~ DANCE OR LOOSE THEM!!!
In many languages "music" and "dance" are indistinguishable and one word is used to describe them collectively, and when you think it about it, this actually makes a lot of sense, and I think that this might be the way that it ought to be.
Re: 8-guage sawed-off aimed at your feet ~ DANCE OR LOOSE THEM!!!
Amen and pass the pasta, no, I'll breakdown and take some of that barbecued lamb...
However, the choir, I want those who are disenchanted with dance to tell me, us, why? What is it that gets you in a twist about it? I know the symptoms, like a kid who misbehaves when they don't understand what the teacher is on about. Well, there's two choices there, you either move to the back of the class and keep quiet, hoping no one will notice or ask you to participate, or you act up and risk being sent out of the room all together. In this case it is often cutting asides or 'jokes' at the expense of dance, as an excuse to not participate.
I was tempted to follow the old addage "use it or lose it!" (one 'o') with something like "move 'em or lose 'em!" But the real thought behind that was that if you don't get fully plugged into that complete aspect of 'tradition', the 'dance music' with the 'dance', then you aren't just losing something, as you probably haven't got it anyway, you're missing the points altogether...
What really keeps folks away from giving dance a try? And if they have and don't like it, what is it you didn't like? Maybe it is just some fiction someone else maintains, such as that it has to be so-and-so for it to be 'acceptable' to them. There are some realy bastards in both areas, music and dance, who regularly turn people away, turn them off, shut them out ~ unfairly...
NOTE FROM A FRIEND: I just recieved and email and a good point was made. It can work both ways. If you dance, why not get more intimate with the other part of this equation, the music. Again, the understanding and appreciation can only grow, though at varying speeds, and you can only improve your dancing as a consequence of making music...
I have to say, in my experience, it seems easier to convince a dancer to play music than to get a musician to dance.
Re: 8-guage sawed-off aimed at your feet ~ Move 'em or lose 'em!!!
Move 'em or lose 'em!!! ~
For some of us you don't have to threaten us to get our feet moving, our toes tappin', the rhythm taking over us ~ just give us a good tune...
For others the only choice is to run...the 'loose'...or to collapse into the same old excuses ~ "I can't dance!" It is this later group I would love to hear from, your whys, even if it is just insecurity and a lack of confidence, or that you are actually convinced you can't dance.
You know my basic feeling, if you can put one foot in front of the other, walk, you can dance. If you can't, for whatever reason, there are other ways to dance. Some people do it with their hands, some can do it with their eyes... I've had a great time dancing with blind folk, deaf folk (who could still feel the rhythm), and with folks in wheelchairs. I've also had some great times with young people in prison and with older folks in a home, and with those with learning difficulties. If all those folks can shake their booty and have a good time answering the rhythm of the music, well, what's stopping you?
That's what I'd love to hear ~ what's stopping you?
Re: 8-guage sawed-off aimed at your feet ~ DANCE OR LOOSE THEM!!!
What's stopping me? I've danced a bit, and didn't hate it. It was all right. But I just kept thinking how I'd rather be over there with the band, playing the tunes instead of dancing to them! So that's what I stick with now. Simple as that.
Re: 8-guage sawed-off aimed at your feet ~ DANCE OR LOOSE THEM!!!
What's not to love? You get some moderate exercise in a social atmosphere (HAS to be better than everyone on their own treadmill/stationary bike in a gym; ipod in ears, glaze on eyes), the opportunity (obligation!) to have hands-on contact with members of the opposite sex, and participation in a ritual activity which, if marketed as some things are, might see most of the golf courses in the world change to grazing land.
At the first Keele Folk Studies Week, where some eminent musicologists and anthropologists got to rub shoulders with their earthy eebahgum gorblimey students in the evenings, it was a delight to see said academics dragged kicking and screaming onto the dance floor, and watch their expressions of fear and bewilderment turn to dazed pleasure as they succeeded in learning and participating in some simple figures.
Say what you will about Morris types, they tend to give equal importance to dance, music, song, and acting up.
Speaking of sawed-off scatterguns, I've just noticed my writing is starting to resemble ceolachan's. Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.
Re: 8-guage sawed-off aimed at your feet ~ DANCE OR LOOSE THEM!!!
I thought you take up an instrument so you don't have to dance? I don't like to dance. I don't know how. I feel like an idiot. I have no rhythm, don't know what to do with my arms. I'm a nerd. The same nerdy kid I was in Junior High School who was taunted and tripped in the halls. So I never learned to dance.
Instead I learned to play an instrument. I have good rhythm on an instrument, I can keep time, and I don't have to worry about what to do with my arms or whether I'm too fat or look stupid.
And when it comes to Irish music I have no idea how the dancing for that is supposed to be done anyway.
I'll admit that the one kind of dancing I do enjoy is the kind with a caller, like square dancing. Then you don't have to worry about what to do. They tell you.
Re: 8-guage sawed-off aimed at your feet ~ DANCE OR LOOSE THEM!!!
Callers / Prompters, and even floor managers, were part of the Irish tradition... Even sometimes now you'll catch a dance where there will be some walk-through and/or prompting...
Re: 8-guage sawed-off aimed at your feet ~ DANCE OR LOOSE THEM!!!
"Why not do both Kelly ?"
There's one ceili a month in my area. Not a huge amount of opportunity for both. Perhaps if there were ceilis close by where I wasn't welcome to play, I would dance at those, but there aren't. And playing is so much more fun! Why bother doing the "okay" activity when I could be doing the great one?
As for dancing being a way of meeting members of the male gender... not so appealing in my case. I'm 20... all the guys who dance at the ceilis are over 40. :P
Re: 8-guage sawed-off aimed at your feet ~ DANCE OR LOOSE THEM!!!
Actually, I'd say that's a bad reason to dance if it is your main motivation. I'd never give that as a reason to dance. It might be something develops as a result, but to choose to go to a dance because you wanted to meet the opposite sex, that shouldn't be your main motivation. Like a session, there are the equivalent twits on the dance floor to the shaky-egg brigade and endless other scary stereotypes...
It may be that you haven't found the music in the dance yet seisflutes? I get joy out of both, and I understand being caught in the middle of the two. I also have to say that my joy with the music increases when there's dancers involved in it as well, a great rush, and watching them too... Without the 'dance', the music seems to be missing something ~ and canned music will never take the place of live, despite the decay that became 'Federated Square Dance" in North America and beyond. (callers calling to naff recordings, never a live musician to be seen, caller-centric!)
Re: 8-guage sawed-off aimed at your feet ~ DANCE OR LOOSE THEM!!!
"So, WHY NOT DANCE? What puts you off it?"
Because it's physically impossible for me. But I'd love to be able to do it. Dance is really what the music's about, the musicians are just there to give the dancers something to dance to. So yeah, I agree, it's really all about dancing.
Re: 8-guage sawed-off aimed at your feet ~ DANCE OR LOOSE THEM!!!
Wish we knew where you lfolks all lived I am sure that between us (Ceol et al ) could maybe find you a set dance class.
The idea that dancing has to be done at a 'ceilis ' and not a pub, outside on the grass or in your kitchen or anywhere else you want is a relatively new development.
I could wax lyrical about the influence of the Catholic Church on the invention of the Ceilidh dancing in the 19th century but life is far too short ( lets change the dancing so it takes up lots of space so it has to be done in the Church Halls so we can watch for immorality ).
Re: 8-guage sawed-off aimed at your feet ~ DANCE OR LOOSE THEM!!!
Occasionally people get up and dance at our sessions too. If I were one of them, whose playing would they dance to? We usually have barely enough to make a half set and leave a couple of us playing (generally me and a bouzouki player).
Anyway, maybe I "haven't found the music in the dance," but maybe, just maybe, some of us really do like playing better than dancing. Which is probably a good thing. Otherwise you dancers might be stuck with that electric accordion stuff...
Re: 8-guage sawed-off aimed at your feet ~ DANCE OR LOOSE THEM!!!
"Because it's physically impossible for me." ~ Screetch
Screetch, your heart is a constant dance...
The 'problem', possibly, may be with origins. Where did you first get the bug to be involved in this tradition?
All those older musicians I can think of, at the moment, weren't introduced to the music minus the dance. They were one and the same. They were simultaneous. That accounts in part why they were dancers as well as musicians, the two things were inseperable.
Now I find the greater numbers of folks who have come to this thing have done so not by that tradition of completeness but via recordings, sessions, folk clubs, and various other media, and too often without any direct tie into the 'tradition'. That's not to say that these other means aren't a kind of 'tradition', but devoid of the more complete picture of having been 'born' into it or influenced in greater part by folks that have that connection. No, you don't need to be born to this tradition to gain an understanding and to become a part of it. But, those that have come by those twisted indirect means, unless they can 'cross over', are missing some of what the more complete tradition of 'dance music' and dance represent, the oneness of it, the intercommunication and the heart of it. Yeah, sorry to say, I do think that if all you have to base your conversion on is recordings and session, the quantity approach minus the complete picture ~ then ~ your heart is missing a very important beat as regards this tradition. That doesn't mean you can't pick it up, and it doesn't mean you can't go on as you have with just a more limited view and expectation of the 'tradition'. It can and does exist in incomplete forms.
seisflutes ~ in Ireland I have been in situations where we danced to our own lilting, or someone took it up. While we had musicians, we all wanted to dance or we were short of a full set, so, we danced to the lilt and had a great time. I wouldn't take away from your fun, however you see it, but I do think that much goes missing when the dance isn't an integral part of what is, when everything else is said ~ dance music... I also think is can be hard to put those lifts and interest that is integral in the relationship into the music if you haven't some physical idea of what it means. So, highland flings get flattened out, along with other things, the 'geography' of the tunes become the plains instead of the varied and interesting terrain the variety of dance music offers, if understood physically instead of just being played flat out in sets. In the session grind the prevalence of reels means that everything often gets treated the same, loses its character... I know that isn't always the case ~ but...
Another curious thing, a lot of those older musicians were most comfortable and at home with dancers present. Some of them found it hard to play outside of that norm...
Re: 8-guage sawed-off aimed at your feet ~ DANCE OR LOOSE THEM!!!
"I wouldn't take away from your fun, however you see it, but I do think that much goes missing when the dance isn't an integral part of what is, when everything else is said ~ dance music... I also think is can be hard to put those lifts and interest that is integral in the relationship into the music if you haven't some physical idea of what it means."
Oh, I don't disagree with you.
Certainly dance is integral to this music, and it would be no bad thing if as many musicians as possible had a little dancing experience *and vice versa.*
I just don't think everyone has to *love* doing both to the extent that they find it hard to choose between the two. I certainly know my priority.
Like I said, I have done a bit of dancing, and playing for dancers is one of my favorite things to do. I would say I do have some sort of physical idea of what it means, but maybe you see it differently, which is fine. But for now anyway, I haven't changed loyalties.
Re: 8-guage sawed-off aimed at your feet ~ DANCE OR LOOSE THEM!!!
Keep the faith seisfultes! ~ I've enjoyed reading your posts and thinking about them... Gradations in inclination are the norm... I wish those that feel especially strongly against dance, for whatever reason, who avoid it by whatever means, obviously not you, would respond as openly...
You don't need 'love' to have a good time, and I've no doubt, either end of the equation, music or dance, you'd make the best of it and it would be good fun...
Re: 8-guage sawed-off aimed at your feet ~ DANCE OR LOOSE THEM!!!
dancers never understand why people don't want to dance. they go on and on an on, try physically drag you up and just dont get it, some people just don't like to dance! as impossible as it might seem to all ye dancers out there.
i'm a musician and i play for dancers all the time. now the reason is not that i cant dance. i was went to irish dancing for 12 years as a child and was pretty good at it (if i do say so myself), i'm not shy or afraid of being laughed at. i just don't like to dance. i don't force dancers to play the fiddle .
so i think all dancers should be told, if someone says they don't wanna dance twice, leave it at that. i'd like to see an end to people being dragged to the dance floor. no more abuse of non-dancers!!
Re: 8-guage sawed-off aimed at your feet ~ DANCE OR LOOSE THEM!!!
I ahve to agree with ceolachan....I'm a pretty bad dancer, but I do it when I can and love it! It's not like I'm doing stepdancing solos or anything....When there's a caller, I'll jump in and it's great fun!
I can respect anyone's decision not to of course....but all musicians should at least try it a few times!
Re: 8-guage sawed-off aimed at your feet ~ DANCE OR LOOSE THEM!!!
"Dancers never understand why people don't want to dance." ~ lanefest rec.
That was the idea of this thread, maybe not put as clearly as I'd wished, but that is the gist of it. No, it wasn't intended as it started, to be flag waving for dance, and which does carry through the thread, but it was wanting to hear 'reasons', reasonable to phobic, as to why those who have a negative impression about 'dance' have those feelings, and why some people avoid or belittle this aspect of tradition... Thanks for making the effort. It can be damned hard to reach an understanding without dialogue.
" ~ i went to irish dancing for 12 years as a child ~" ~ lanefest rec.
I hate to say it lenefest, but that makes sense too. I don't know where you hail from, but I well remember folks in Ireland who even professed dread and hatred for the dance. Curious, as I am, I delved a little deeper and found out that in most cases they had suffered through it as a kid, the dress up, the medal wining, the classes. Something about that had a powerful influence in turning them away from it and even building in them some element of dread.
" ~ i think all dancers should be told, if someone says they don't wanna dance ~" ~ lanefest rec.
That is a rule with both my wife and I, where we are involved in any way in dance related activities, we don't force people up against their will. We're glad of anyone who's willing to give it a go, music or dance, and they will have our patience, but the welcome is for all and nobody has to dance. How crazy is that, to force someone to do something they are dead set against. But, you are right, some folks push it. We have been on the recieving end of that both sides, music and dance, and it was uncomfortable...
Then there was my mother-in-law. It only riled her, she expecting to refuse anything a minimum of three times before giving in and saying yes. When I used to take her for her word, her first "no thank you", she used to get really frustrated...
Re: 8-guage sawed-off aimed at your feet ~ DANCE OR LOOSE THEM!!!
Well there is the fact that like the tunes, the dances need to be learnt! They have their names, steps etc, so unless you have had a caller/ teacher and partners, and actually practice to get good[ish] then the thrill of 'the swing' etc is not there. Personally Dancing sets hold great memories for me.
Playing for dancers is my favourite musical occupation, without doubt. There is nothing better than seeing a full house loose themselves in dance, We are but 2 sides of the same coin. if all you see of this 'coin' is one side you might be under the mistaken impression thats all there is.
So ceolachan whats with th shotgun then? if your not into forceing folk to dance?
.177 caliber BB pointed at your lips ~ Sing Danny Boy or this is going to sting!!!
Andy never gave Barney the ammo. He was pretty harmless.
When you say dance does it have to be Irish traditional? I have found you can get anyone to dance. It just is not always what you think it is going to be. Back in the day a girl would let you hold her if you could slow dance. Music & dance isn't something stamped on a coin. It's a bag of loot.
How do you say intoxicated on dance?
Re: 8-bars at a go, sawed-off and aimed at your feet ~ MOVE 'EM OR LOSE 'EM!!!
The coin, and now a bag of loot... You guys are great. I love it.
There is a joke built into the title 'jig'. An 8-guage sawed off would blow up in my face, so I'd be the one who would suffer the most if I was foolish enough to pull the trigger. As well, the largest bore shotgun I've ever pulled the trigger on was a 10 guage and despite having basic know how my shoulder hurt for a long time afterwards. Once was enough... The choice was also a bit more of a 'loose' cannon, to dance or to beat feet out uh here. Maybe it's salt shot?
Since 'tradition', the 'complete' package, was integral to the upbringing of many in Ireland, dance came with the music and the music came with the dance, it was just taken for granted. Musicians danced! And, many dancer also played or sang a bit of music, of some form or the other. That interconnection started to be eroded away in the 1930s with that twit and hypocrit Éamon de Valera and his cronies passing the 'Dance Hall Act', 1935... Music started moving into dance free pubs and dances that were sanctioned by the church and state tended to be Irish free ~ or leaned more to the latest fads ~ foxtrots, quicksteps, waltzes, jive, etc... There were still the rare and secret house dances, but the hammer of the law had broken the back of tradition, the greater part of what had held the tradition together as a collective, as one, as music and dance interdependant of each other, as one ~ with respect, interest and understanding shared...
Things change, I personally don't think this was a change for the better. It wasn't a natural one. It was affected, enforced. Those things were taken for granted, that connection, and the artificial, in particular this law, "The Dance Hall Act", helped to disrupt and disorient and damage that unity, that community of music and dance and good social craic... What was whole and well rounded became disparate and dichotomous...divisive... Now we have a whole slew of folks that have been raised on that division, as either a dancer or a musician, or subjected to the distorted fantasies or dance and music cadres ~ commissions, unions, federations, etc...
Jingoism also intervened and various societies, like the Gaelic League, started passing other laws and judgements and condemnations about what was and wasn't 'IRISH'. Similar ignorance and arrogance also contributed greatly to undermining the language, Irish, which some would say suffered more after the English gave up rule than before...
Re: 8-guage sawed-off aimed at your feet ~ DANCE OR LOOSE THEM!!!
Going back a tad earlier than the earliest known Irish dance and its music, didn't David dance before the Ark of the Covenant? He would have had music played (even if it wasn't quite the sort approved by Cecil B De Mille).
There are plenty of sessions where you may not have much room to move.
You can still have some good craic if the music has a 'lift'. Dance when & where you can but let's keep those sessions in small rooms going. One bit from this thread caught my attention,
"In the session grind the prevalence of reels means that everything often gets treated the same, loses its character... I know that isn't always the case ~ but..."
& of course that changes when the musicians are playing for dancers.
BTW ceolachan we have been playing a number of 3/4 tunes. Do you dance the mazurka? http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/3522
Mazurka Auvergnate
Re: 8-guage sawed-off aimed at your feet ~ DANCE OR LOOSE THEM!!!
"Screetch, your heart is a constant dance...
The 'problem', possibly, may be with origins. Where did you first get the bug to be involved in this tradition?
All those older musicians I can think of"
I'm not old, really, I'm 34. I was born with a disability. I've never really been able to dance but I've always been drawn to dance music, be it folk music or electronic dance music (I listen to and play both!). I think that part of the reason that I love listening to and playing dance music is because it's kind of my way of being a part of the dancing.
I'm seeing a surgeon in January about my first hip replacements; I had many unsuccessful surgeries as a child but the total replacement is pretty much a cure as far as hips are concerned. My hips aren't the only joints that I have problems with, but they are the ones keeping me off the dance floor.
I'll still limp around and I'll still have to limit my activity after that, but there's a good chance that I'll be able to get on a dance floor finally! And believe me, I have plans to make a total ass of myself on every dance floor that I can find, if things turn out well.
Well, I can't say all of that and not explain my condition. I have no problems with talking about it and I don't want to be mysterious about it: I have metaphyseal chondrodysplasia, Schmid type. It's a rare form of dwarfism resulting in mild short stature and abnormal cartilage which wears quickly causing the joints to deteriorate at an early age.
Oh, and ceolachan, I'm not posting this because it bothered me that you assumed that I was old. That was a reasonable assumption and I have no problems with it, I just wanted to clarify so people here will have a more accurate picture of who I am.
8-guage sawed-off aimed at your feet ~ DANCE OR LOOSE THEM!!! 8-)
8-guage sawed-off aimed at your feet ~ DANCE OR LOOSE THEM!!!
Alright, WHY NOT? You play 'dance music', even if it might be cr*p for dancing to. But WHY? What is it about 'dance' that puts you off giving it a try? Have you tried and had a bad experience? Do you fear it? Do you fear making an a*s of yourself? Why not give it a try? What is it about dance that you don't like? What preconceptions or expectations do you have? And if you really do feel a hate or dread of it, WHY?
If you have something that has happened in your past, direct or second hand, that has built a phobia in you about dance, mild or severe, please, I'd like to hear the tale. I love dance music, but it isn't limited to that, but I really love the dance in the music, when the person playing the music is also dancing it with expression and lift, the kind that electrifies the dance floor and that moves you in a way that you can't keep still, even if it is just keeping time with your foot.
My tale, short, I promise, a very well known musician, worldwide, and I'd been to concerts that featured him. I noticed that while others played, most, people were moved to move, feet tapped, faces smiled. When this person came on to do a solo there wasn't a movement in the place, and not bright smiles like with others.
Then, we happened to be in the same place, music and dance in Clare, and he was sitting in with the locals and playing, and he wasn't showing off. He was also up dancing as well. I gained a sudden appreciation of his music. It was supurb, uplifting, great, inspirational. If he could have captured that on any of the many albums he is featured on I'd own it right out and it would be a favourite.
So, there's the difference, but this is about the 'dance' in 'dance music'... He danced, and was pretty damned good, but I'd have enjoyed dancing opposite him just for the smile and craic.
So, WHY NOT DANCE? What puts you off it?
# Posted on December 8th 2007 by ceolachan
Re: 8-guage sawed-off aimed at your feet ~ DANCE OR LOOSE THEM!!!
I'm with you on this one it’s been interesting to teach musicians to learn to dance over the years with some it’s like watching a light bulb come on in their heads.
I wonder if there would be fewer questions about rhythm and phrasing on this site if more people did dance.
# Posted on December 8th 2007 by bazouki dave and the real tooty flutey
Re: 8-guage sawed-off aimed at your feet ~ DANCE OR LOOSE THEM!!!
I love dancîng... and been playing for dancers for over 30 years now... and for me it's the spirit of this music. I like hearing most of today's bands, playing fast, with some awesome new tunes...but for me it's so much more pleasant to listen to the music played with a good tempo and with a dancing - how can you say it in english - lilt ? my greatest pleasure is to play for dancers and have them dancing the correct dance without my telling them what it is - means I'm giving the correct swing... And I try to teach my pupils to play with good musical movement, that for the dance, and not just to impress the audience...
# Posted on December 8th 2007 by Nikita Pfister
Re: 8-guage sawed-off aimed at your feet ~ DANCE OR LOOSE THEM!!!
You're preaching to the choir in my case. Testify, my brother.
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/15360
# Posted on December 8th 2007 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: 8-guage sawed-off aimed at your feet ~ DANCE OR LOOSE THEM!!!
In many languages "music" and "dance" are indistinguishable and one word is used to describe them collectively, and when you think it about it, this actually makes a lot of sense, and I think that this might be the way that it ought to be.
# Posted on December 8th 2007 by mehitabel23
Re: 8-guage sawed-off aimed at your feet ~ DANCE OR LOOSE THEM!!!
Amen and pass the pasta, no, I'll breakdown and take some of that barbecued lamb...
However, the choir, I want those who are disenchanted with dance to tell me, us, why? What is it that gets you in a twist about it? I know the symptoms, like a kid who misbehaves when they don't understand what the teacher is on about. Well, there's two choices there, you either move to the back of the class and keep quiet, hoping no one will notice or ask you to participate, or you act up and risk being sent out of the room all together. In this case it is often cutting asides or 'jokes' at the expense of dance, as an excuse to not participate.
I was tempted to follow the old addage "use it or lose it!" (one 'o') with something like "move 'em or lose 'em!" But the real thought behind that was that if you don't get fully plugged into that complete aspect of 'tradition', the 'dance music' with the 'dance', then you aren't just losing something, as you probably haven't got it anyway, you're missing the points altogether...
What really keeps folks away from giving dance a try? And if they have and don't like it, what is it you didn't like? Maybe it is just some fiction someone else maintains, such as that it has to be so-and-so for it to be 'acceptable' to them. There are some realy bastards in both areas, music and dance, who regularly turn people away, turn them off, shut them out ~ unfairly...
NOTE FROM A FRIEND: I just recieved and email and a good point was made. It can work both ways. If you dance, why not get more intimate with the other part of this equation, the music. Again, the understanding and appreciation can only grow, though at varying speeds, and you can only improve your dancing as a consequence of making music...
I have to say, in my experience, it seems easier to convince a dancer to play music than to get a musician to dance.
# Posted on December 8th 2007 by ceolachan
Re: 8-guage sawed-off aimed at your feet ~ Move 'em or lose 'em!!!
Move 'em or lose 'em!!! ~
For some of us you don't have to threaten us to get our feet moving, our toes tappin', the rhythm taking over us ~ just give us a good tune...
For others the only choice is to run...the 'loose'...or to collapse into the same old excuses ~ "I can't dance!" It is this later group I would love to hear from, your whys, even if it is just insecurity and a lack of confidence, or that you are actually convinced you can't dance.
You know my basic feeling, if you can put one foot in front of the other, walk, you can dance. If you can't, for whatever reason, there are other ways to dance. Some people do it with their hands, some can do it with their eyes... I've had a great time dancing with blind folk, deaf folk (who could still feel the rhythm), and with folks in wheelchairs. I've also had some great times with young people in prison and with older folks in a home, and with those with learning difficulties. If all those folks can shake their booty and have a good time answering the rhythm of the music, well, what's stopping you?
That's what I'd love to hear ~ what's stopping you?
# Posted on December 8th 2007 by ceolachan
Re: 8-guage sawed-off aimed at your feet ~ DANCE OR LOOSE THEM!!!
What's stopping me? I've danced a bit, and didn't hate it. It was all right. But I just kept thinking how I'd rather be over there with the band, playing the tunes instead of dancing to them! So that's what I stick with now. Simple as that.
# Posted on December 8th 2007 by seisflutes
Re: 8-guage sawed-off aimed at your feet ~ DANCE OR LOOSE THEM!!!
Why not do both Kelly ?
# Posted on December 8th 2007 by bazouki dave and the real tooty flutey
Re: 8-guage sawed-off aimed at your feet ~ DANCE OR LOOSE THEM!!!
( its how I met Tooty )
# Posted on December 8th 2007 by bazouki dave and the real tooty flutey
Re: 8-guage sawed-off aimed at your feet ~ DANCE OR LOOSE THEM!!!
What's not to love? You get some moderate exercise in a social atmosphere (HAS to be better than everyone on their own treadmill/stationary bike in a gym; ipod in ears, glaze on eyes), the opportunity (obligation!) to have hands-on contact with members of the opposite sex, and participation in a ritual activity which, if marketed as some things are, might see most of the golf courses in the world change to grazing land.
At the first Keele Folk Studies Week, where some eminent musicologists and anthropologists got to rub shoulders with their earthy eebahgum gorblimey students in the evenings, it was a delight to see said academics dragged kicking and screaming onto the dance floor, and watch their expressions of fear and bewilderment turn to dazed pleasure as they succeeded in learning and participating in some simple figures.
Say what you will about Morris types, they tend to give equal importance to dance, music, song, and acting up.
Speaking of sawed-off scatterguns, I've just noticed my writing is starting to resemble ceolachan's. Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.
# Posted on December 8th 2007 by oldstrings
Re: 8-guage sawed-off aimed at your feet ~ DANCE OR LOOSE THEM!!!
I thought you take up an instrument so you don't have to dance? I don't like to dance. I don't know how. I feel like an idiot. I have no rhythm, don't know what to do with my arms. I'm a nerd. The same nerdy kid I was in Junior High School who was taunted and tripped in the halls. So I never learned to dance.
Instead I learned to play an instrument. I have good rhythm on an instrument, I can keep time, and I don't have to worry about what to do with my arms or whether I'm too fat or look stupid.
And when it comes to Irish music I have no idea how the dancing for that is supposed to be done anyway.
I'll admit that the one kind of dancing I do enjoy is the kind with a caller, like square dancing. Then you don't have to worry about what to do. They tell you.
# Posted on December 8th 2007 by sbhikes
Re: 8-guage sawed-off aimed at your feet ~ DANCE OR LOOSE THEM!!!
Callers / Prompters, and even floor managers, were part of the Irish tradition... Even sometimes now you'll catch a dance where there will be some walk-through and/or prompting...
# Posted on December 8th 2007 by ceolachan
Re: 8-guage sawed-off aimed at your feet ~ DANCE OR LOOSE THEM!!!
"Why not do both Kelly ?"
There's one ceili a month in my area. Not a huge amount of opportunity for both. Perhaps if there were ceilis close by where I wasn't welcome to play, I would dance at those, but there aren't. And playing is so much more fun! Why bother doing the "okay" activity when I could be doing the great one?
As for dancing being a way of meeting members of the male gender... not so appealing in my case. I'm 20... all the guys who dance at the ceilis are over 40. :P
# Posted on December 8th 2007 by seisflutes
Re: 8-guage sawed-off aimed at your feet ~ DANCE OR LOOSE THEM!!!
Actually, I'd say that's a bad reason to dance if it is your main motivation. I'd never give that as a reason to dance. It might be something develops as a result, but to choose to go to a dance because you wanted to meet the opposite sex, that shouldn't be your main motivation. Like a session, there are the equivalent twits on the dance floor to the shaky-egg brigade and endless other scary stereotypes...
It may be that you haven't found the music in the dance yet seisflutes? I get joy out of both, and I understand being caught in the middle of the two. I also have to say that my joy with the music increases when there's dancers involved in it as well, a great rush, and watching them too... Without the 'dance', the music seems to be missing something ~ and canned music will never take the place of live, despite the decay that became 'Federated Square Dance" in North America and beyond. (callers calling to naff recordings, never a live musician to be seen, caller-centric!)
# Posted on December 8th 2007 by ceolachan
seisflute, sometimes it is more fun and safer to dance with the same sex...
# Posted on December 8th 2007 by ceolachan
Re: 8-guage sawed-off aimed at your feet ~ DANCE OR LOOSE THEM!!!
Well I read the 2nd response & that pretty well left me out.
# Posted on December 8th 2007 by Random_notes
Re: 8-guage sawed-off aimed at your feet ~ DANCE OR LOOSE THEM!!!
Understood! ~
# Posted on December 8th 2007 by ceolachan
Re: 8-guage sawed-off aimed at your feet ~ DANCE OR LOOSE THEM!!!
"So, WHY NOT DANCE? What puts you off it?"
Because it's physically impossible for me. But I'd love to be able to do it. Dance is really what the music's about, the musicians are just there to give the dancers something to dance to. So yeah, I agree, it's really all about dancing.
# Posted on December 8th 2007 by Marklar
Re: 8-guage sawed-off aimed at your feet ~ DANCE OR LOOSE THEM!!!
Wish we knew where you lfolks all lived I am sure that between us (Ceol et al ) could maybe find you a set dance class.
The idea that dancing has to be done at a 'ceilis ' and not a pub, outside on the grass or in your kitchen or anywhere else you want is a relatively new development.
I could wax lyrical about the influence of the Catholic Church on the invention of the Ceilidh dancing in the 19th century but life is far too short ( lets change the dancing so it takes up lots of space so it has to be done in the Church Halls so we can watch for immorality ).
# Posted on December 8th 2007 by bazouki dave and the real tooty flutey
Re: 8-guage sawed-off aimed at your feet ~ DANCE OR LOOSE THEM!!!
Occasionally people get up and dance at our sessions too. If I were one of them, whose playing would they dance to? We usually have barely enough to make a half set and leave a couple of us playing (generally me and a bouzouki player).
Anyway, maybe I "haven't found the music in the dance," but maybe, just maybe, some of us really do like playing better than dancing. Which is probably a good thing. Otherwise you dancers might be stuck with that electric accordion stuff...
# Posted on December 8th 2007 by seisflutes
Re: 8-guage sawed-off aimed at your feet ~ DANCE OR LOOSE THEM!!!
"Because it's physically impossible for me." ~ Screetch
Screetch, your heart is a constant dance...
The 'problem', possibly, may be with origins. Where did you first get the bug to be involved in this tradition?
All those older musicians I can think of, at the moment, weren't introduced to the music minus the dance. They were one and the same. They were simultaneous. That accounts in part why they were dancers as well as musicians, the two things were inseperable.
Now I find the greater numbers of folks who have come to this thing have done so not by that tradition of completeness but via recordings, sessions, folk clubs, and various other media, and too often without any direct tie into the 'tradition'. That's not to say that these other means aren't a kind of 'tradition', but devoid of the more complete picture of having been 'born' into it or influenced in greater part by folks that have that connection. No, you don't need to be born to this tradition to gain an understanding and to become a part of it. But, those that have come by those twisted indirect means, unless they can 'cross over', are missing some of what the more complete tradition of 'dance music' and dance represent, the oneness of it, the intercommunication and the heart of it. Yeah, sorry to say, I do think that if all you have to base your conversion on is recordings and session, the quantity approach minus the complete picture ~ then ~ your heart is missing a very important beat as regards this tradition. That doesn't mean you can't pick it up, and it doesn't mean you can't go on as you have with just a more limited view and expectation of the 'tradition'. It can and does exist in incomplete forms.
seisflutes ~ in Ireland I have been in situations where we danced to our own lilting, or someone took it up. While we had musicians, we all wanted to dance or we were short of a full set, so, we danced to the lilt and had a great time. I wouldn't take away from your fun, however you see it, but I do think that much goes missing when the dance isn't an integral part of what is, when everything else is said ~ dance music... I also think is can be hard to put those lifts and interest that is integral in the relationship into the music if you haven't some physical idea of what it means. So, highland flings get flattened out, along with other things, the 'geography' of the tunes become the plains instead of the varied and interesting terrain the variety of dance music offers, if understood physically instead of just being played flat out in sets. In the session grind the prevalence of reels means that everything often gets treated the same, loses its character... I know that isn't always the case ~ but...
# Posted on December 8th 2007 by ceolachan
Another curious thing, a lot of those older musicians were most comfortable and at home with dancers present. Some of them found it hard to play outside of that norm...
# Posted on December 9th 2007 by ceolachan
Re: 8-guage sawed-off aimed at your feet ~ DANCE OR LOOSE THEM!!!
"I wouldn't take away from your fun, however you see it, but I do think that much goes missing when the dance isn't an integral part of what is, when everything else is said ~ dance music... I also think is can be hard to put those lifts and interest that is integral in the relationship into the music if you haven't some physical idea of what it means."
Oh, I don't disagree with you.
Certainly dance is integral to this music, and it would be no bad thing if as many musicians as possible had a little dancing experience *and vice versa.*
I just don't think everyone has to *love* doing both to the extent that they find it hard to choose between the two. I certainly know my priority.
Like I said, I have done a bit of dancing, and playing for dancers is one of my favorite things to do. I would say I do have some sort of physical idea of what it means, but maybe you see it differently, which is fine. But for now anyway, I haven't changed loyalties.
# Posted on December 9th 2007 by seisflutes
Re: 8-guage sawed-off aimed at your feet ~ DANCE OR LOOSE THEM!!!
Keep the faith seisfultes! ~ I've enjoyed reading your posts and thinking about them... Gradations in inclination are the norm... I wish those that feel especially strongly against dance, for whatever reason, who avoid it by whatever means, obviously not you, would respond as openly...
You don't need 'love' to have a good time, and I've no doubt, either end of the equation, music or dance, you'd make the best of it and it would be good fun...
# Posted on December 9th 2007 by ceolachan
Re: 8-guage sawed-off aimed at your feet ~ DANCE OR LOOSE THEM!!!
dancers never understand why people don't want to dance. they go on and on an on, try physically drag you up and just dont get it, some people just don't like to dance! as impossible as it might seem to all ye dancers out there.
i'm a musician and i play for dancers all the time. now the reason is not that i cant dance. i was went to irish dancing for 12 years as a child and was pretty good at it (if i do say so myself), i'm not shy or afraid of being laughed at. i just don't like to dance. i don't force dancers to play the fiddle .
so i think all dancers should be told, if someone says they don't wanna dance twice, leave it at that. i'd like to see an end to people being dragged to the dance floor. no more abuse of non-dancers!!
# Posted on December 9th 2007 by lanefest rec.
Re: 8-guage sawed-off aimed at your feet ~ DANCE OR LOOSE THEM!!!
I ahve to agree with ceolachan....I'm a pretty bad dancer, but I do it when I can and love it! It's not like I'm doing stepdancing solos or anything....When there's a caller, I'll jump in and it's great fun!
I can respect anyone's decision not to of course....but all musicians should at least try it a few times!
# Posted on December 9th 2007 by possumawesome
Re: 8-guage sawed-off aimed at your feet ~ DANCE OR LOOSE THEM!!!
"Dancers never understand why people don't want to dance." ~ lanefest rec.
That was the idea of this thread, maybe not put as clearly as I'd wished, but that is the gist of it. No, it wasn't intended as it started, to be flag waving for dance, and which does carry through the thread, but it was wanting to hear 'reasons', reasonable to phobic, as to why those who have a negative impression about 'dance' have those feelings, and why some people avoid or belittle this aspect of tradition... Thanks for making the effort. It can be damned hard to reach an understanding without dialogue.
" ~ i went to irish dancing for 12 years as a child ~" ~ lanefest rec.
I hate to say it lenefest, but that makes sense too. I don't know where you hail from, but I well remember folks in Ireland who even professed dread and hatred for the dance. Curious, as I am, I delved a little deeper and found out that in most cases they had suffered through it as a kid, the dress up, the medal wining, the classes. Something about that had a powerful influence in turning them away from it and even building in them some element of dread.
" ~ i think all dancers should be told, if someone says they don't wanna dance ~" ~ lanefest rec.
That is a rule with both my wife and I, where we are involved in any way in dance related activities, we don't force people up against their will. We're glad of anyone who's willing to give it a go, music or dance, and they will have our patience, but the welcome is for all and nobody has to dance. How crazy is that, to force someone to do something they are dead set against. But, you are right, some folks push it. We have been on the recieving end of that both sides, music and dance, and it was uncomfortable...
Then there was my mother-in-law. It only riled her, she expecting to refuse anything a minimum of three times before giving in and saying yes. When I used to take her for her word, her first "no thank you", she used to get really frustrated...
# Posted on December 9th 2007 by ceolachan
Re: 8-guage sawed-off aimed at your feet ~ DANCE OR LOOSE THEM!!!
Well there is the fact that like the tunes, the dances need to be learnt! They have their names, steps etc, so unless you have had a caller/ teacher and partners, and actually practice to get good[ish] then the thrill of 'the swing' etc is not there. Personally Dancing sets hold great memories for me.
Playing for dancers is my favourite musical occupation, without doubt. There is nothing better than seeing a full house loose themselves in dance, We are but 2 sides of the same coin. if all you see of this 'coin' is one side you might be under the mistaken impression thats all there is.
So ceolachan whats with th shotgun then? if your not into forceing folk to dance?
# Posted on December 10th 2007 by jig
.177 caliber BB pointed at your lips ~ Sing Danny Boy or this is going to sting!!!
Andy never gave Barney the ammo. He was pretty harmless.
When you say dance does it have to be Irish traditional? I have found you can get anyone to dance. It just is not always what you think it is going to be. Back in the day a girl would let you hold her if you could slow dance. Music & dance isn't something stamped on a coin. It's a bag of loot.
How do you say intoxicated on dance?
# Posted on December 10th 2007 by Random_notes
Re: 8-bars at a go, sawed-off and aimed at your feet ~ MOVE 'EM OR LOSE 'EM!!!
The coin, and now a bag of loot... You guys are great. I love it.
There is a joke built into the title 'jig'. An 8-guage sawed off would blow up in my face, so I'd be the one who would suffer the most if I was foolish enough to pull the trigger. As well, the largest bore shotgun I've ever pulled the trigger on was a 10 guage and despite having basic know how my shoulder hurt for a long time afterwards. Once was enough... The choice was also a bit more of a 'loose' cannon, to dance or to beat feet out uh here. Maybe it's salt shot?
Since 'tradition', the 'complete' package, was integral to the upbringing of many in Ireland, dance came with the music and the music came with the dance, it was just taken for granted. Musicians danced! And, many dancer also played or sang a bit of music, of some form or the other. That interconnection started to be eroded away in the 1930s with that twit and hypocrit Éamon de Valera and his cronies passing the 'Dance Hall Act', 1935... Music started moving into dance free pubs and dances that were sanctioned by the church and state tended to be Irish free ~ or leaned more to the latest fads ~ foxtrots, quicksteps, waltzes, jive, etc... There were still the rare and secret house dances, but the hammer of the law had broken the back of tradition, the greater part of what had held the tradition together as a collective, as one, as music and dance interdependant of each other, as one ~ with respect, interest and understanding shared...
Things change, I personally don't think this was a change for the better. It wasn't a natural one. It was affected, enforced. Those things were taken for granted, that connection, and the artificial, in particular this law, "The Dance Hall Act", helped to disrupt and disorient and damage that unity, that community of music and dance and good social craic... What was whole and well rounded became disparate and dichotomous...divisive... Now we have a whole slew of folks that have been raised on that division, as either a dancer or a musician, or subjected to the distorted fantasies or dance and music cadres ~ commissions, unions, federations, etc...
http://www.setdance.com/pdha/pdha.html
# Posted on December 10th 2007 by ceolachan
Jingoism also intervened and various societies, like the Gaelic League, started passing other laws and judgements and condemnations about what was and wasn't 'IRISH'. Similar ignorance and arrogance also contributed greatly to undermining the language, Irish, which some would say suffered more after the English gave up rule than before...
# Posted on December 10th 2007 by ceolachan
Re: 8-guage sawed-off aimed at your feet ~ DANCE OR LOOSE THEM!!!
Going back a tad earlier than the earliest known Irish dance and its music, didn't David dance before the Ark of the Covenant? He would have had music played (even if it wasn't quite the sort approved by Cecil B De Mille).
# Posted on December 10th 2007 by lazyhound
Re: 8-guage sawed-off aimed at your feet ~ DANCE OR LOOSE THEM!!!
& naked?
http://home.halden.net/rolf/merian/m083.jpg
Let's not go quoting scriptures now, what was that bit in psalms?
# Posted on December 10th 2007 by ceolachan
DANCE OR LOOSE
There are plenty of sessions where you may not have much room to move.
You can still have some good craic if the music has a 'lift'. Dance when & where you can but let's keep those sessions in small rooms going. One bit from this thread caught my attention,
"In the session grind the prevalence of reels means that everything often gets treated the same, loses its character... I know that isn't always the case ~ but..."
& of course that changes when the musicians are playing for dancers.
BTW ceolachan we have been playing a number of 3/4 tunes. Do you dance the mazurka?
http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/3522
Mazurka Auvergnate
# Posted on December 11th 2007 by Random_notes
Re: 8-guage sawed-off aimed at your feet ~ DANCE OR LOOSE THEM!!!
"Screetch, your heart is a constant dance...
The 'problem', possibly, may be with origins. Where did you first get the bug to be involved in this tradition?
All those older musicians I can think of"
I'm not old, really, I'm 34. I was born with a disability. I've never really been able to dance but I've always been drawn to dance music, be it folk music or electronic dance music (I listen to and play both!). I think that part of the reason that I love listening to and playing dance music is because it's kind of my way of being a part of the dancing.
I'm seeing a surgeon in January about my first hip replacements; I had many unsuccessful surgeries as a child but the total replacement is pretty much a cure as far as hips are concerned. My hips aren't the only joints that I have problems with, but they are the ones keeping me off the dance floor.
I'll still limp around and I'll still have to limit my activity after that, but there's a good chance that I'll be able to get on a dance floor finally! And believe me, I have plans to make a total ass of myself on every dance floor that I can find, if things turn out well.
Well, I can't say all of that and not explain my condition. I have no problems with talking about it and I don't want to be mysterious about it: I have metaphyseal chondrodysplasia, Schmid type. It's a rare form of dwarfism resulting in mild short stature and abnormal cartilage which wears quickly causing the joints to deteriorate at an early age.
Oh, and ceolachan, I'm not posting this because it bothered me that you assumed that I was old. That was a reasonable assumption and I have no problems with it, I just wanted to clarify so people here will have a more accurate picture of who I am.
# Posted on December 16th 2007 by Marklar