IMHO,it's just a corporate wheeze,a gimic,to try and come up with a feature that'll extract a bit more money out of the gullible and naive.It reminds me of ads in woodworking magazines "NO SKILL NEEDED!!" What's the point? The pleasure and satisfaction comes from having acquired the skill.Actually,i find it quite insulting.Perhaps it'll appeal to people who need junk newspapers to tell them what they ought to think and junk tv ads to tell them what to eat and junk magazines...well,you maybe get my drift
grrr.Buy a reasonable honest second hand guitar and spend six months of toil and frustration and then it starts getting better and better and better....until you end up like me not wanting to do anything else cos it's so nice...and i only bother with this computer to give my hands a break
You know, learning to tune your guitar is a great way to train your ear, which will make you a better musician. It'll also teach you to listen to your instrument as you play it, skills which we can all use no matter what instrument we play.
Yes, Richard! Like playing music, except not. Perhaps a bit like those weight loss plans that promise that you can eat whatever you want and not exercise, but lose 10 pounds a week.
Well, i would have to put a good word in for the idea. I have no problems tuning guitars fiddles , harps etc but nonetheless, As a gigging musician using high powered amps a guitar like this would be well handy, It tunes itself! No idea how good it would be but in a stage environment with noisy drumers etc i would be happy to have the benefit of this tool. I think its a brilliant idea. After all with electronic tuners lots of players couldnt tune their guitar by ear anyhow!!! To me, tuning is an essential part of playing, if you cant tune, how do you know if its in tune or not? but for someone like me who has spent 3 decades tuning too many damn instruments i would love to be in that easy position box players like mcdiv... are in .
You're right, jig, the tuner do-dad is a great idea, as anyone who has tried to tune in a chaotic environment would acknowledge. It is a tool, like those that I use in my job every day, that makes things a whole lot easier I am a surveyor, and, although I could still draw maps with pen and vellum, run traverse with a theodolite and chain and calculate my closures in crabbed handwriting on sheets of foolscap, I sure do like them fancy computers and whatnot. There are those in my profession that insist that everyone with a license should be able do things 'the old way', and I agree. But I wouldn't last long in the business if I did. It's the use of appropriate technology. A Realtor with a GPS unit in her pink little hand thinks that she is qualified to find boundaries, but I disagree. I know what it takes to do it, just like you know what it takes to tune a guitar. That doesn't mean we should reject developments like this, just know when to use them.
Hmph This is folk music,ITM,what about all the old masters who played in their own tuning ? But really,it's the general principle of dumbing down,taking skill away from humans,so we have to rely upon technology we have to pay for.
You have a mechanical slave to do this and to do that,and then when they don't work because the electricity goes off,you're left helpless,like those aristocrats in the revolution who couldn't even put their own clothes on because they'd always had a servant to do it since they were babies.How you going to feel batlady when your employer says you're surplus to requirements because there's a neat little drone with GPS and lasers that can hover over the site and transmit the data directly back to HQ,no need to bother with humans at all anymore.Or have i got the wrong idea about what your surveying is?
There's another point I find interesting,about 'not lasting long in business'.This is what happens so often.One doesn't really want the new technology (which is so often environmentally unfriendly) but if the neighbour or competitors have it,they have an (unfair) advantage,so we all get dragged along and forced to use the new (often inferior) technology,whether we like it or not.
It's comparable to athletes using performance enhancing drugs.If they help you win,then there's pressure on everyone to use them,even if they can cause untold damage to the body and an early death.
This market mechanism is blind and beyond anyone's control,it has no intelligence or moral integrity,and yet it is determining our future and the quality of our lives.Does anyone else think it's a bit strange to have faith that we are getting taken somewhere good by this process? Personally I don't. I think it's bizarre that we place our fate in the hands of such a monster.It's a tough argument though,especially when one's life is saved by some fancy hitech gadget,as mine has been.
Wolfbird, I may be replaced by an AI survey robot someday, but I have a hunch that my knees will fatally blow out before then. (But! I can get a knee replacement!)
Fortunately, I know that what I do, in spite of the techie gadgets, still has a major component of "thence, westerly to the 10 acres of Smith", which is delightfully vague. Like playing music. There is a certain skill component that any robot or technician can handle, but there is also the Nyah that you only acquire by keeping your eyes/ears open and making lots of mistakes until you get it right. You can be technically correct but still do the survey or tune wrong.
Maybe that is why, referring back to the 'Architect ' thread, certain professions are well-represented in trad music?
Wolfbird couldn't have put it better. Up to the end of the 19th century fiddlers and violinists all used uncovered gut strings, except for the G which would have been covered with copper wire otherwise it would have had to be impossibly thick. All tuning was routinely done from the pegs; fine adjusters didn't come along until the advent of metal strings. Those musicians knew all about tuning by ear and how to play in tune as a consequence. Mercifully, there are still those today who still do.
Speaking personally, I've come to the conclusion that, for other than all-metal strings, tuning by the pegs is the best and most efficient way. You've just got to ensure that your pegs are set up properly and that the strings are also wound on properly.
In the days when I played the fiddle (some 40 years ago) all of the strings were gut and the G (which was not 'impossibly thick') was certainly not covered in copper wire. Where did you get this information from?
I have to agree with lazyhound there. Allthough i do use a fine tuner on the E sometimes. However one advantage of finetuners is in tuning to an instrument, say a touch sharp of concert, in a session. Retuneing via the pegs in this situation can be tricky. I Have one fiddle with no fine tuners, one with an E and a couple with full sets of inbuilt.
I recomend removing the fine tuners from a wooden tail piece. For a numbr of reasons. stability of tuning, ear training, I gather the tone is affected as well but personally i had'nt realised/noticed.
I recomend this course for steel strings as well.
After 6 months or a year then put them back on if you want.
It allso gets rid of that is it/isnt it uncertainty which can happen with fine tuners, none of this micro adjustment. Its macro all the way!
You know,i don't really care much what people do,if they enjoy it and don't harm others,and it's none of my business.But I think there's an insidious creeping dependency which takes away our personal autonomy and reduces us.I met a city guy,about 30,on a country lane in the middle of nowhere.he'd got a flat tyre.he's like reverted to a helpless lost child.I said 'why don't you cahnge the wheel?' He didn't know that was possible.He didn't even know if he had a spare or where it might be.In the city he just phoned for assistance and a guy would come and do the job for him.
I read somewhere about some guys with a sailing ship that got wrecked on an island,about 300 years ago.They just spent six months building a new one.They knew how to make ropes,nails,everything they needed.
I think it's about 'what we are',in a profound sense.Christianity sees us as sacred children of the Divine.Science sees us as evolved primates,but still awesome because of the wonder and timescale of Evolution.In the UK we are not even citizens,we are all 'subjects' (of Her Majesty).The medical profession sees us as biological machines.Capitalism reduces us to mere 'consumers',cogs in the economic mega-machine.I kinda resent all this.I think there's a bit more to being whatever we are,and we need to insist on that,and reclaim our own birthright,so we can have a bit of dignity and sel-respect.it's a struggle.I can't cook.I rely upon commercially produced ready meals from factories.Pathetic really,to be reliant in such a basic way.
But I can get my sixth string to open D by ear,without any reference,give or take a few microtones,which is kinda handy.
Bravo, wolfbird! We have had helplessness thrust upon us because it is just so....convenient. The human tendency toward economy of effort saw us through thousands of years of evolution, but we may have become too focused on labor-saving devices.
Isn't that woman's work? Ouch! No,I didn't mean to say that )
How about you come and teach me? I'm not easy to find though.
i think it's wonderful,when my address is entered into google maps it comes up showing nothing there....
Wolfbird:
"Hmph This is folk music,ITM,what about all the old masters who played in their own tuning ? But really,it's the general principle of dumbing down,taking skill away from humans,so we have to rely upon technology we have to pay for."
Quite right! In fact shouldn't we do away with all that other gagetry like instruments? What's wrong with looking up, putting a clothespeg on your nose and using your human voice instead of all that mucking around with pipes, reeds, bags and stuff? If you want a drone, learn the way the Mongolian folkies make two notes at once! Forget bodhrans - what's wrong with stamping your foot on the floor? And after all, almost every child learns to whistle, so why bother with those tin tubes, let alone the new long wooden ones?
Come to think of it, why are we communicating with computers, when a good, traditional foot-messenger could get round us all, probably, before dying.
Excuse me, I must go back to going through the soil with my bare hands in the hope of finding an edible root. Haven't got time to stay here.
Mac, - copper wire covered G-string - I saw a reference to this a couple of days ago on a website about baroque violins. I was searching several websites more or less at random for a particular topic (not really relevant here) - which I didn't find - and happened on that comment.
If you wanted to make the counter argument,Lingpupa,anaesthetics would be a more convincing example.
Are you saying that ITM was *worse* 50 years ago? without all the modern 'benefits' ? Anyway,you're missing the point a bit.It's not so much the development of new gadgetry as it is the scale and speed of the change,which is increasing exponentially,along with the numbers of people,the magnitude of the pollution and the destruction of the environment.Do you really *need* 25 brands of toothpaste to choose from?
As far as looking for edible roots (potatoes?) is concerned,would you rather grow your own,that taste nice and are pesticide free,or perhaps you prefer french fries with trans fats? Hunter gatherer soceities actually had better quality of life,better health,more freedom and leisure,than most present day wage slaves,mand they didn't manage to trash the planet for some 50000 years.We're doing it in just one lifetime.
If you're saying that you think this world exists meremly to provide you with entertainment and time saving conveniences,then,sorry,you're entitled to your POV,but I don't agree
My argument isn't to do away with traditional instruments of ITM.I suggest that the range is quite sufficient,to provide for dancing and a good time.It's not about having ever more ultra sophisticated gadgetry.It's about knowing how to have a good time and making people feel good by making good music.
In fact I'm very happy that now is *the* Golden Age for the acoustic guitar.My argument is with the thoughtless acceptance of mindless commercial forces which have very serious negative effects for which there are no apparent solutions.
For example,there was a warning a few days ago that the Highland Pipers ought to become more aware that the African Blackwood tree is becoming extinct because of it's value as a material for chanters.
"think it's about 'what we are',in a profound sense.Christianity sees us as sacred children of the Divine.Science sees us as evolved primates,but still awesome ...to being whatever we are,and we need to insist on that,and reclaim our own birthright,so we can have a bit of dignity and self-respect.it's a struggle.I" Wolfbird.
I like what wolfbird is talking about. This really is the struggle, when so much is done for you. I put a lot of store by "The quality of my day to day life". I play guitar because it improves the quality of my day to day life, and learning to keep the beast in tune is part of the quality of my day to day life. I will not be getting an automatic tuner. Learn more, play more and one will hear more. The more you hear, the better the quality of your day to day life.
Sorry KML,they somehow got overlooked,along with the tantric yogis,rosicrucians,freemasons,mormons,zoroastrians,moonies,hare krishnas,and a few others...apologies to all who may feel left out
Pahleeease,SWFL Fiddler,that should be '*Neo*- Luddites'
Unlike old Neddy,we do know how to use the internet,after all
I almost hate to stick my head up on this one, but...here goes.
I teach college students, and I have discovered that a lot of them have calculators practically glued to their hands and are completely unable to do basic arithmetic in their heads and don't do much better when given a pencil and paper.
The calculator isn't a bad thing but for many people it has gone from being a helpful tool to a crutch that they cannot do without, and that's the problem. It isn't the tool but the person who has developed an unhealthy dependence on the tool that is the problem.
KML,I'm not really a Luddite or a Neo-Luddite.There are plenty of websites presenting the views of folk who are inspired by the historical Ned Ludd movement.I see that movement as a very understandable response to the social conditions of the time.
However,the problems of today are very different in very many respects. A lot of people have what amounts to a quasi-religious faith that technology will solve those problems.I think that is an illusion. A lot of people worship gadgetry,the Jeremy Clarkson syndrome, hypnotised by new toys.A year later and it's all obsoloete and thrown away.Seems very shallow.
"It isn't the tool but the person who has developed an unhealthy dependence on the tool that is the problem."
That's an interesting point,Ginepro.Reminds me of the gun lobby who put it out regularly after some shooting horror.I guess a stone can be a tool, so is a violin, so is a car, so is a cruise missile...which is close to the argument i was attempting to make at the top of the page.
It's easy to become enslaved and dependent, which reduces a person as a human being.Instead of being the masters who use the tools to produce something worthwhile,the tools become dominant and control our lives and define what we are.
Ah, case in point Ginepro. Calculators are a great tool, and even a good learning aid, but they handicap people. The drudgery of toting up columns of figures or doing routine calculations is best handled by machine, but if you don't use your head and pay attention, you can come up with interesting results. Not unlike tuning!
I particularly remember getting ready to play a small concert with some folks. One of the other fiddlers was dutifully twiddling in the corner with her chromatic tuner. Unfortunately, she hadn't noticed that her A was set to something other than 440. And she really didn't hear that it was wrong. Someone had to take her aside and kindly ask her to 'give me and A so I can tune'. Crisis averted.
When I studied science and engineering, calculators hadn't been invented. We all used slide rules (I still have, and occasionally use, mine) and books of mathematical tables (logs, trig etc). A fundamental feature of a slide rule was that you had to have a good idea in your head of the approximate magnitude of the expected result, because the device gives no indication of the position of the decimal point. Naturally, we all became reasonably good at this approximate mental arithmetic.
It was also common to see shopkeepers adding up in their heads virtually instantaneously (and dead accurately) a bill of a couple of dozen items in pounds, shillings and pence (a pre-decimal currency where 12 pence = 1 shilling and 20 shillings = 1 pound), and weights and quantities were all in human-friendly non-decimal Imperial units.
When I teach chem classes, I hold a calculator up and say tell the students, "This is not your brain. You are responsible for the answer you put on your paper." I've seen too many times when people write down a completely ludicrous answer and their excuse is "That's what the calculator said." You have to take responsibility for your use of the tool and think about the result to see if it makes any sense. Use the calculator, by all means, but don't turn off your brain.
I've met plenty of people who can't tell that their own instrument isn't in tune, and I find that sad because, by and large, it's because they aren't listening, and isn't listening a prerequisite for playing well, especially playing well with others? I know a guy who actually played for half an hour before he realized his guitar was missing a string!
Some people might say that these are the sorts of people who most need this guitar, but I would say that these are the people who shouldn't be allowed anywhere near it! Let them learn to pay attention to their instrument and their tuning, let them learn to listen to the instrument and their own playing (and being responsible for your own tuning is a good way to help hone that skill) first. Then it would be safe for them to use the automatic guitar.
Well, there's my three and a half cents worth. And, by the way, if I am going to play with other musicians, I do use a tuner to make sure my instrument is at concert pitch, but if a string goes out, I can hear it and fix it on my own.
Trevor, I still think that slide rules are one of the more elegant tools of science. I used to always carry one so that I could get through an exam when the batteries of my calculator died.
Unfortunately, although I always buy them when I find one in a thrift shop (I am a hopelessly sentimental geek), I can't remember how to use all of the functions. Sigh. Another perfectly good archaic skill bites the dust....
Ginepro:
"I know a guy who actually played for half an hour before he realized his guitar was missing a string!"
Ha,ha LOL
I remember a drugged up teen playing in a club who thought that all that was required was vigorous strumming and passion to put the song across to the equally zonked out audience.He began with 6 strings and then broke one after another,which seemed to encourage even more frenzied strumming,until the song ended with only the 6th remaining.
My experience, too, Trevorhound. “Use of the Slide Rule” was a required course. One hour per week for a semester. Every physics, chemistry and engineering student had a slide rule dangling from the belt.
Woldbird:
"Am I to assume that's the best response you can offer? I thought perhaps you wanted to discuss serious points."
No. I accept that they do exist here, but they are so hard to find I neither look for nor expect to find them any more.
Well,raise whatever serious topic you want to discuss,Lingpupa,
and I'll discuss it with you and I'll try not to lower the level of our conversation by attacking your use of commas and your spelling errors.
There's nothing wrong with a device like this, if you can tell if it's right or not with your own ear and know how to tune on your own. Nothing wrong with a bit of mechanical convenience.
But if it's used by someone who doesn't know any other way to tune....well...that person will likely not ever be a good musician anyway and no one will be fooled into thinking otherwise.
Any guitar player dedicated enough to learn to play well will also learn to tune by ear; no one who is serious about playing would neglect learning to tune up.
It might not be fun to hear the guitar played badly, but at least it's not as painful as hearing it played badly while out of tune
And if you think this thing is bad, have you seen kids playing Guitar Hero?
Auto tuning guitar
Auto tuning guitar
I'm not really a guitar player but an interested in your opinions of the new Gibson automatic tuning guitar.
I'm sure some wouldn't even bother to learn how to tune without the auto feature which in my humble opinion wouldn't be good.
Mary
# Posted on December 6th 2007 by Antikhntr
Re: Auto tuning guitar
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/16006
# Posted on December 6th 2007 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: Auto tuning guitar
Uhoh. I play concertina and can't tune my own instrument.
# Posted on December 6th 2007 by mcdevincabe
Re: Auto tuning guitar
Thanks, KML
I didn't recognize the content of the discussion from the title.
Mary
# Posted on December 6th 2007 by Antikhntr
Re: Auto tuning guitar
IMHO,it's just a corporate wheeze,a gimic,to try and come up with a feature that'll extract a bit more money out of the gullible and naive.It reminds me of ads in woodworking magazines "NO SKILL NEEDED!!" What's the point? The pleasure and satisfaction comes from having acquired the skill.Actually,i find it quite insulting.Perhaps it'll appeal to people who need junk newspapers to tell them what they ought to think and junk tv ads to tell them what to eat and junk magazines...well,you maybe get my drift
grrr.Buy a reasonable honest second hand guitar and spend six months of toil and frustration and then it starts getting better and better and better....until you end up like me not wanting to do anything else cos it's so nice...and i only bother with this computer to give my hands a break
# Posted on December 6th 2007 by wolfbird
Re: Auto tuning guitar
You know, learning to tune your guitar is a great way to train your ear, which will make you a better musician. It'll also teach you to listen to your instrument as you play it, skills which we can all use no matter what instrument we play.
# Posted on December 6th 2007 by Ginepro
Re: Auto tuning guitar
Combine it with one of these - http://www.guitarsimplified.com/
Magic!
# Posted on December 6th 2007 by RichardB
Re: Auto tuning guitar
Yes, Richard! Like playing music, except not. Perhaps a bit like those weight loss plans that promise that you can eat whatever you want and not exercise, but lose 10 pounds a week.
# Posted on December 6th 2007 by Batlady
Re: Auto tuning guitar
Well, i would have to put a good word in for the idea. I have no problems tuning guitars fiddles , harps etc but nonetheless, As a gigging musician using high powered amps a guitar like this would be well handy, It tunes itself! No idea how good it would be but in a stage environment with noisy drumers etc i would be happy to have the benefit of this tool. I think its a brilliant idea. After all with electronic tuners lots of players couldnt tune their guitar by ear anyhow!!! To me, tuning is an essential part of playing, if you cant tune, how do you know if its in tune or not? but for someone like me who has spent 3 decades tuning too many damn instruments i would love to be in that easy position box players like mcdiv... are in .
# Posted on December 6th 2007 by jig
Re: Auto tuning guitar
>Combine it with one of these - http://www.guitarsimplified.com/
>Magic!
I love the fact that at the bottom of that page there is a link to a site for 'non-competetive sports'. It just seems appropriate somehow.,.
# Posted on December 6th 2007 by bassetrox
Re: Auto tuning guitar
You're right, jig, the tuner do-dad is a great idea, as anyone who has tried to tune in a chaotic environment would acknowledge. It is a tool, like those that I use in my job every day, that makes things a whole lot easier I am a surveyor, and, although I could still draw maps with pen and vellum, run traverse with a theodolite and chain and calculate my closures in crabbed handwriting on sheets of foolscap, I sure do like them fancy computers and whatnot. There are those in my profession that insist that everyone with a license should be able do things 'the old way', and I agree. But I wouldn't last long in the business if I did. It's the use of appropriate technology. A Realtor with a GPS unit in her pink little hand thinks that she is qualified to find boundaries, but I disagree. I know what it takes to do it, just like you know what it takes to tune a guitar. That doesn't mean we should reject developments like this, just know when to use them.
# Posted on December 6th 2007 by Batlady
Re: Auto tuning guitar
Hmph
This is folk music,ITM,what about all the old masters who played in their own tuning ? But really,it's the general principle of dumbing down,taking skill away from humans,so we have to rely upon technology we have to pay for.
You have a mechanical slave to do this and to do that,and then when they don't work because the electricity goes off,you're left helpless,like those aristocrats in the revolution who couldn't even put their own clothes on because they'd always had a servant to do it since they were babies.How you going to feel batlady when your employer says you're surplus to requirements because there's a neat little drone with GPS and lasers that can hover over the site and transmit the data directly back to HQ,no need to bother with humans at all anymore.Or have i got the wrong idea about what your surveying is?
There's another point I find interesting,about 'not lasting long in business'.This is what happens so often.One doesn't really want the new technology (which is so often environmentally unfriendly) but if the neighbour or competitors have it,they have an (unfair) advantage,so we all get dragged along and forced to use the new (often inferior) technology,whether we like it or not.
It's comparable to athletes using performance enhancing drugs.If they help you win,then there's pressure on everyone to use them,even if they can cause untold damage to the body and an early death.
This market mechanism is blind and beyond anyone's control,it has no intelligence or moral integrity,and yet it is determining our future and the quality of our lives.Does anyone else think it's a bit strange to have faith that we are getting taken somewhere good by this process? Personally I don't. I think it's bizarre that we place our fate in the hands of such a monster.It's a tough argument though,especially when one's life is saved by some fancy hitech gadget,as mine has been.
# Posted on December 6th 2007 by wolfbird
Re: Auto tuning guitar
Wolfbird, I may be replaced by an AI survey robot someday, but I have a hunch that my knees will fatally blow out before then. (But! I can get a knee replacement!)
Fortunately, I know that what I do, in spite of the techie gadgets, still has a major component of "thence, westerly to the 10 acres of Smith", which is delightfully vague. Like playing music. There is a certain skill component that any robot or technician can handle, but there is also the Nyah that you only acquire by keeping your eyes/ears open and making lots of mistakes until you get it right. You can be technically correct but still do the survey or tune wrong.
Maybe that is why, referring back to the 'Architect ' thread, certain professions are well-represented in trad music?
# Posted on December 6th 2007 by Batlady
Re: Auto tuning guitar
Wolfbird couldn't have put it better. Up to the end of the 19th century fiddlers and violinists all used uncovered gut strings, except for the G which would have been covered with copper wire otherwise it would have had to be impossibly thick. All tuning was routinely done from the pegs; fine adjusters didn't come along until the advent of metal strings. Those musicians knew all about tuning by ear and how to play in tune as a consequence. Mercifully, there are still those today who still do.
Speaking personally, I've come to the conclusion that, for other than all-metal strings, tuning by the pegs is the best and most efficient way. You've just got to ensure that your pegs are set up properly and that the strings are also wound on properly.
# Posted on December 6th 2007 by lazyhound
Re: Auto tuning guitar
Hmm, Lazyhound,
In the days when I played the fiddle (some 40 years ago) all of the strings were gut and the G (which was not 'impossibly thick') was certainly not covered in copper wire. Where did you get this information from?
# Posted on December 6th 2007 by Floss the Tethers
Re: Auto tuning guitar
I have to agree with lazyhound there. Allthough i do use a fine tuner on the E sometimes. However one advantage of finetuners is in tuning to an instrument, say a touch sharp of concert, in a session. Retuneing via the pegs in this situation can be tricky. I Have one fiddle with no fine tuners, one with an E and a couple with full sets of inbuilt.
I recomend removing the fine tuners from a wooden tail piece. For a numbr of reasons. stability of tuning, ear training, I gather the tone is affected as well but personally i had'nt realised/noticed.
I recomend this course for steel strings as well.
After 6 months or a year then put them back on if you want.
It allso gets rid of that is it/isnt it uncertainty which can happen with fine tuners, none of this micro adjustment. Its macro all the way!
# Posted on December 6th 2007 by jig
Re: Auto tuning guitar
You know,i don't really care much what people do,if they enjoy it and don't harm others,and it's none of my business.But I think there's an insidious creeping dependency which takes away our personal autonomy and reduces us.I met a city guy,about 30,on a country lane in the middle of nowhere.he'd got a flat tyre.he's like reverted to a helpless lost child.I said 'why don't you cahnge the wheel?' He didn't know that was possible.He didn't even know if he had a spare or where it might be.In the city he just phoned for assistance and a guy would come and do the job for him.
I read somewhere about some guys with a sailing ship that got wrecked on an island,about 300 years ago.They just spent six months building a new one.They knew how to make ropes,nails,everything they needed.
I think it's about 'what we are',in a profound sense.Christianity sees us as sacred children of the Divine.Science sees us as evolved primates,but still awesome because of the wonder and timescale of Evolution.In the UK we are not even citizens,we are all 'subjects' (of Her Majesty).The medical profession sees us as biological machines.Capitalism reduces us to mere 'consumers',cogs in the economic mega-machine.I kinda resent all this.I think there's a bit more to being whatever we are,and we need to insist on that,and reclaim our own birthright,so we can have a bit of dignity and sel-respect.it's a struggle.I can't cook.I rely upon commercially produced ready meals from factories.Pathetic really,to be reliant in such a basic way.
But I can get my sixth string to open D by ear,without any reference,give or take a few microtones,which is kinda handy.
# Posted on December 6th 2007 by wolfbird
Re: Auto tuning guitar
Bravo, wolfbird! We have had helplessness thrust upon us because it is just so....convenient. The human tendency toward economy of effort saw us through thousands of years of evolution, but we may have become too focused on labor-saving devices.
Now, do yourself a favor and lean to make bread.
# Posted on December 6th 2007 by Batlady
Re: Auto tuning guitar
Isn't that woman's work? Ouch! No,I didn't mean to say that
)
How about you come and teach me? I'm not easy to find though.
i think it's wonderful,when my address is entered into google maps it comes up showing nothing there....
# Posted on December 6th 2007 by wolfbird
Re: Auto tuning guitar
[Raps wolfbird smartly with wooden spoon]
Get to work, ya slacker:
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/11/08/dining/081mrex.html
# Posted on December 7th 2007 by Batlady
Re: Auto tuning guitar
Wolfbird:
"Hmph This is folk music,ITM,what about all the old masters who played in their own tuning ? But really,it's the general principle of dumbing down,taking skill away from humans,so we have to rely upon technology we have to pay for."
Quite right! In fact shouldn't we do away with all that other gagetry like instruments? What's wrong with looking up, putting a clothespeg on your nose and using your human voice instead of all that mucking around with pipes, reeds, bags and stuff? If you want a drone, learn the way the Mongolian folkies make two notes at once! Forget bodhrans - what's wrong with stamping your foot on the floor? And after all, almost every child learns to whistle, so why bother with those tin tubes, let alone the new long wooden ones?
Come to think of it, why are we communicating with computers, when a good, traditional foot-messenger could get round us all, probably, before dying.
Excuse me, I must go back to going through the soil with my bare hands in the hope of finding an edible root. Haven't got time to stay here.
# Posted on December 7th 2007 by Lingpupa
Re: Auto tuning guitar
Mac, - copper wire covered G-string - I saw a reference to this a couple of days ago on a website about baroque violins. I was searching several websites more or less at random for a particular topic (not really relevant here) - which I didn't find - and happened on that comment.
# Posted on December 7th 2007 by lazyhound
Re: Auto tuning guitar
If you wanted to make the counter argument,Lingpupa,anaesthetics would be a more convincing example.
Are you saying that ITM was *worse* 50 years ago? without all the modern 'benefits' ? Anyway,you're missing the point a bit.It's not so much the development of new gadgetry as it is the scale and speed of the change,which is increasing exponentially,along with the numbers of people,the magnitude of the pollution and the destruction of the environment.Do you really *need* 25 brands of toothpaste to choose from?
As far as looking for edible roots (potatoes?) is concerned,would you rather grow your own,that taste nice and are pesticide free,or perhaps you prefer french fries with trans fats? Hunter gatherer soceities actually had better quality of life,better health,more freedom and leisure,than most present day wage slaves,mand they didn't manage to trash the planet for some 50000 years.We're doing it in just one lifetime.
If you're saying that you think this world exists meremly to provide you with entertainment and time saving conveniences,then,sorry,you're entitled to your POV,but I don't agree
# Posted on December 7th 2007 by wolfbird
Re: Auto tuning guitar
Lingpupa,perhaps you missed this link from an earlier discussion?
http://homepage.eircom.net/~bronzeagehorns/index.html
My argument isn't to do away with traditional instruments of ITM.I suggest that the range is quite sufficient,to provide for dancing and a good time.It's not about having ever more ultra sophisticated gadgetry.It's about knowing how to have a good time and making people feel good by making good music.
In fact I'm very happy that now is *the* Golden Age for the acoustic guitar.My argument is with the thoughtless acceptance of mindless commercial forces which have very serious negative effects for which there are no apparent solutions.
For example,there was a warning a few days ago that the Highland Pipers ought to become more aware that the African Blackwood tree is becoming extinct because of it's value as a material for chanters.
# Posted on December 7th 2007 by wolfbird
Re: Auto tuning guitar
"think it's about 'what we are',in a profound sense.Christianity sees us as sacred children of the Divine.Science sees us as evolved primates,but still awesome ...to being whatever we are,and we need to insist on that,and reclaim our own birthright,so we can have a bit of dignity and self-respect.it's a struggle.I" Wolfbird.
I like what wolfbird is talking about. This really is the struggle, when so much is done for you. I put a lot of store by "The quality of my day to day life". I play guitar because it improves the quality of my day to day life, and learning to keep the beast in tune is part of the quality of my day to day life. I will not be getting an automatic tuner. Learn more, play more and one will hear more. The more you hear, the better the quality of your day to day life.
# Posted on December 7th 2007 by toumi
Re: Auto tuning guitar
Between this and this:
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/16025
It's not looking good for us humans. Fight the machines! Up the Luddites!
# Posted on December 7th 2007 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Auto tuning guitar
Erm...so, what about Christian scientists?
# Posted on December 7th 2007 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: Auto tuning guitar
Sorry KML,they somehow got overlooked,along with the tantric yogis,rosicrucians,freemasons,mormons,zoroastrians,moonies,hare krishnas,and a few others...apologies to all who may feel left out
Pahleeease,SWFL Fiddler,that should be '*Neo*- Luddites'
Unlike old Neddy,we do know how to use the internet,after all
# Posted on December 7th 2007 by wolfbird
Re: Auto tuning guitar
And what about the spaces after the commas or full stops? Are they an innovation you feel uncomfortable with?
# Posted on December 7th 2007 by Lingpupa
Re: Auto tuning guitar
I almost hate to stick my head up on this one, but...here goes.
I teach college students, and I have discovered that a lot of them have calculators practically glued to their hands and are completely unable to do basic arithmetic in their heads and don't do much better when given a pencil and paper.
The calculator isn't a bad thing but for many people it has gone from being a helpful tool to a crutch that they cannot do without, and that's the problem. It isn't the tool but the person who has developed an unhealthy dependence on the tool that is the problem.
# Posted on December 7th 2007 by Ginepro
Re: Auto tuning guitar
Ah, Wolfie - so that should be "Luddites of the World Unite...Online anyway..."...or is that a bit too ironic for this site?
# Posted on December 7th 2007 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: Auto tuning guitar
Lingpupa,my writing style certainly leaves me open to criticism.
Am I to assume that's the best response you can offer? I thought perhaps you wanted to discuss serious points.
# Posted on December 7th 2007 by wolfbird
Re: Auto tuning guitar
KML,I'm not really a Luddite or a Neo-Luddite.There are plenty of websites presenting the views of folk who are inspired by the historical Ned Ludd movement.I see that movement as a very understandable response to the social conditions of the time.
However,the problems of today are very different in very many respects. A lot of people have what amounts to a quasi-religious faith that technology will solve those problems.I think that is an illusion. A lot of people worship gadgetry,the Jeremy Clarkson syndrome, hypnotised by new toys.A year later and it's all obsoloete and thrown away.Seems very shallow.
# Posted on December 7th 2007 by wolfbird
Re: Auto tuning guitar
"It isn't the tool but the person who has developed an unhealthy dependence on the tool that is the problem."
That's an interesting point,Ginepro.Reminds me of the gun lobby who put it out regularly after some shooting horror.I guess a stone can be a tool, so is a violin, so is a car, so is a cruise missile...which is close to the argument i was attempting to make at the top of the page.
It's easy to become enslaved and dependent, which reduces a person as a human being.Instead of being the masters who use the tools to produce something worthwhile,the tools become dominant and control our lives and define what we are.
# Posted on December 7th 2007 by wolfbird
Re: Auto tuning guitar
Ah, case in point Ginepro. Calculators are a great tool, and even a good learning aid, but they handicap people. The drudgery of toting up columns of figures or doing routine calculations is best handled by machine, but if you don't use your head and pay attention, you can come up with interesting results. Not unlike tuning!
I particularly remember getting ready to play a small concert with some folks. One of the other fiddlers was dutifully twiddling in the corner with her chromatic tuner. Unfortunately, she hadn't noticed that her A was set to something other than 440. And she really didn't hear that it was wrong. Someone had to take her aside and kindly ask her to 'give me and A so I can tune'. Crisis averted.
# Posted on December 7th 2007 by Batlady
Re: Auto tuning guitar
When I studied science and engineering, calculators hadn't been invented. We all used slide rules (I still have, and occasionally use, mine) and books of mathematical tables (logs, trig etc). A fundamental feature of a slide rule was that you had to have a good idea in your head of the approximate magnitude of the expected result, because the device gives no indication of the position of the decimal point. Naturally, we all became reasonably good at this approximate mental arithmetic.
It was also common to see shopkeepers adding up in their heads virtually instantaneously (and dead accurately) a bill of a couple of dozen items in pounds, shillings and pence (a pre-decimal currency where 12 pence = 1 shilling and 20 shillings = 1 pound), and weights and quantities were all in human-friendly non-decimal Imperial units.
# Posted on December 7th 2007 by lazyhound
Re: Auto tuning guitar
When I teach chem classes, I hold a calculator up and say tell the students, "This is not your brain. You are responsible for the answer you put on your paper." I've seen too many times when people write down a completely ludicrous answer and their excuse is "That's what the calculator said." You have to take responsibility for your use of the tool and think about the result to see if it makes any sense. Use the calculator, by all means, but don't turn off your brain.
I've met plenty of people who can't tell that their own instrument isn't in tune, and I find that sad because, by and large, it's because they aren't listening, and isn't listening a prerequisite for playing well, especially playing well with others? I know a guy who actually played for half an hour before he realized his guitar was missing a string!
Some people might say that these are the sorts of people who most need this guitar, but I would say that these are the people who shouldn't be allowed anywhere near it! Let them learn to pay attention to their instrument and their tuning, let them learn to listen to the instrument and their own playing (and being responsible for your own tuning is a good way to help hone that skill) first. Then it would be safe for them to use the automatic guitar.
Well, there's my three and a half cents worth. And, by the way, if I am going to play with other musicians, I do use a tuner to make sure my instrument is at concert pitch, but if a string goes out, I can hear it and fix it on my own.
Rant over.
# Posted on December 7th 2007 by Ginepro
Re: Auto tuning guitar
Trevor, I still think that slide rules are one of the more elegant tools of science. I used to always carry one so that I could get through an exam when the batteries of my calculator died.
Unfortunately, although I always buy them when I find one in a thrift shop (I am a hopelessly sentimental geek), I can't remember how to use all of the functions. Sigh. Another perfectly good archaic skill bites the dust....
# Posted on December 7th 2007 by Batlady
Re: Auto tuning guitar
Ginepro:
"I know a guy who actually played for half an hour before he realized his guitar was missing a string!"
Ha,ha LOL
I remember a drugged up teen playing in a club who thought that all that was required was vigorous strumming and passion to put the song across to the equally zonked out audience.He began with 6 strings and then broke one after another,which seemed to encourage even more frenzied strumming,until the song ended with only the 6th remaining.
# Posted on December 7th 2007 by wolfbird
Re: Auto tuning guitar
My experience, too, Trevorhound. “Use of the Slide Rule” was a required course. One hour per week for a semester. Every physics, chemistry and engineering student had a slide rule dangling from the belt.
# Posted on December 7th 2007 by Bob himself
Re: Auto tuning guitar
Wolfbird: that's hysterical.
The guy I was talking about was stone cold sober at the time!
# Posted on December 7th 2007 by Ginepro
Re: Auto tuning guitar
Woldbird:
"Am I to assume that's the best response you can offer? I thought perhaps you wanted to discuss serious points."
No. I accept that they do exist here, but they are so hard to find I neither look for nor expect to find them any more.
# Posted on December 8th 2007 by Lingpupa
Re: Auto tuning guitar
Well,raise whatever serious topic you want to discuss,Lingpupa,
and I'll discuss it with you and I'll try not to lower the level of our conversation by attacking your use of commas and your spelling errors.
# Posted on December 8th 2007 by wolfbird
Re: Auto tuning guitar
There's nothing wrong with a device like this, if you can tell if it's right or not with your own ear and know how to tune on your own. Nothing wrong with a bit of mechanical convenience.
But if it's used by someone who doesn't know any other way to tune....well...that person will likely not ever be a good musician anyway and no one will be fooled into thinking otherwise.
Any guitar player dedicated enough to learn to play well will also learn to tune by ear; no one who is serious about playing would neglect learning to tune up.
It might not be fun to hear the guitar played badly, but at least it's not as painful as hearing it played badly while out of tune
And if you think this thing is bad, have you seen kids playing Guitar Hero?
# Posted on December 8th 2007 by Marklar
Re: Auto tuning guitar
I have a bass player who claims his axe is factory tuned!
# Posted on December 10th 2007 by zippydw