So, I just got a new instrument - a fylde touchstone octave mandolin (octave mandola, if you prefer). I like it a lot, and after trying numerous picks find I prefer a chunky (by my standards) .88 pick for tone. Sadly, this has set me back on my triplets, which are handleable on my previous .60 picks. Is it a reasonable expectation to be able to play that ornament on the heavier pick, or am I simply iceskating uphill here? Which picks do you folks prefer?
dunno about mandolins - for shortscale tenor banjo I used D'Andrea pro brite 0.73 but for some reason Clayton imitation tortoiseshell 0.72 seem to work better on longscale tenors I now play.
Try re-cutting the pointy end of the pick - if you form a fairly oblique angle with a distinct, sharp apex you might get a better result for triplets (and for overall crispness too) than with the steeper angled but rounded ends of most proprietary picks.
millionyears_bc - recutting the pick is something I never considered. Thanks!
seaniemcg - those dunlops *were* my preferred pick, but they don't get quite the sound I'm looking for out of this instrument. If I don't come up with a better solution, they are exactly what I'll use Thanks.
I have the same instrument, I hope you get as much fun out of yours as I do with mine. My current favourite pick is a .73 wedgie, I like the roughened and shaped grip. Jim Dunlop nylon .73's also suit me and the Herco Gold flex 50's seem to last for ages.
One day I will find the magic pick, lightening triplets with plenty of volume, until then I suppose I wil just have to practice.
0.60mm should be ok. When you are next in the music shop, order a set of strings and throw 10 picks into your pocket while they are getting you the strings. Dunlop, grey colour.
Years ago I bought a gross of picks from John Pearse, which I still favor and I'm still playing the last of the original gross. These are just about the only thing I use for flatpicking, I can't quite hit the triplets with anything else. I don't know what the material is ("pre-war quality viscoloid", if that means anything to anyone - some sort of celluloid maybe?), but it seems to have a quicker response than the Dunlops or the Claytons.
Now for banjo I'll use a big trianglular Clayton, I forget the gauge exactly and it's worn off the pick so I'll have to figure it out if I lose that one, and if I'm playing mostly rhythm I'll go to something a little softer (Dulop orange, most likely) and for most songs I use my fingers, but for tunes it's the JP Studio Blacks.
And BB - the bit about ripping off the music shops, I'm not sure I got the joke. I know you weren't being serious about stealing from people who make their living off of stuff like strings and picks, that would be vile - but where's the punchline?
An advertisement calls it "bright and loud." I would think a .88mm would dim that brightness.
Even with a .88mm you should be able to get the triplets back but you'll need to loosen your hold on the pick, and then I'm not sure if you would be happy with the lack of attack. Some others here have suggested a .73mm compromise and maybe that's a better idea than an 88.
But actually there's an old rule that might be the best: When you experiment, change only one thing at a time. If you just changed instruments, stay with your .60 and give it some time. Later, try different strings for a different tone. Later, try something else.
I use Gibson heavy mandolin teardrop picks which my dial calipers say are 0.90 mm thick though I can't seem to buy them anymore and have to keep resharpening the ends of the ones that I have left.
I think it is a very personal thing but I prefer a lighter pick for strumming and a heavier pick for flatpicking. The heavier pick to my mind certainly gives the better tone and, for me, better control. I had a friend bring half a gross of Fender celluloid medium picks (0.56 mm) but they keep breaking and are to floopy for my heavy hand.
Thanks for all the help! So, I'm going to stick with my dunlop .60s for a while (changing only one thing at a time), and probably get some .72/.73 picks to play around with (see if I can't get some meatier tone out of this thing eventually.
Oh, and although I'm relatively clueless in the "instruments-you-pick-not-bow" area I've got to recommend this fylde. It's probably a better instrument than I deserve right now.
And BB - the bit about ripping off the music shops,
You are having a laugh?
My friend makes small harps, and sells them to school children, £300, so he is making a profit. A music shop got 6 of him, and sold them at £1,200.
Ripping off music shops? The best guitar in the world could not cost more than £250 to make, so the dearest guitar should be about £500.
As for plectrums, they cost wholesale 10 for a penny, but sell at 30p each. Music shops do not expect you to pay for plectrums, if you are a real musician, and always getting stuff of them.
In short, musical instruments are second only to coffins when it comes to a rip off mark up price.
I am still somewhat amused by this. When shopping in a music shop, always get a number of items.
Example; Two Christmas's ago, I decide to get a reasonable semi-acoustic guitar for my son. The guitar "expert" in the shop immediately goes to a nice Yamaha, retail price £620 but reduced to £425. So we go for that, best gold plated lead at £30, strings, two Lee Oskar blues harps, capo, and whatever, bring the bill to £590. While they are doing all this I casually and openly select about 10 plectrums, different gauges. Now no honest person is going to attempt to charge you for these.
I then waited until they had packed everything up, and then told the shop that I only had £450. They snatched my hand off, as they are still making a handsome profit.
I remember my son coming home from town, aged 14, with a load of plectrums, claiming that he was now a "real" musician.
bb - a quick lesson in economics;
By buying plectrums in the shop, you are helping to pay the guy's rent, business rates, heating and lighting bills, the times he sits there and nobody comes in but the mortgage ( as Ry Cooder sang ) works the hardest of us all; his expertise, the fact that he had an instrument on the wall that he'd reduced because it was better to get back the money he'd laid out and a small profit to keep things turning over.
I've also heard it argued that an instrument-maker needs to charge 3 times what it actually costs to make an individual instrument, when he sells it, to make a profit.
And most of us would admit we need and respect these instrument-makers and sellers.
His expertise? He was a banana importer, doesn't know one end of a guitar from a clarinet, but he is a salesman.
Plectrums are gifts, believe me.
Was at a party once, and came across the best guitar ever seen, and sounded beautiful. My mate, a guitar expert, was willing to swap his Lakewood for it, or swap his friend's Lowden for it. But the owner would not part with it as he said it would take him a few months at night class to make another one! True story. As he said himself, put a sticker saying Lowden on it and it was worth £3,000. Cost £200 to make. Really beautiful guitar.
Think of guitar shops as furniture shops. You go into a furniture shop with £2,000 in your pocket, they will sell you ANY suite in the shop, doesn't matter if it is marked at £7,000.
So, my way, the shop is just stealing a bit less from you.
Remember, all business people are corrupt, and basically thieves.
Wow, I thought you were making a joke in incredibly poor taste. You know, in my career as a musician, I've always been able to afford plectrums - in fact, I take that as a sign that I'm a "real" musician, in contrast to your view. Now when I teach through a shop, I get freebies, but I make sure that *they* give them to me. That's what a gift is. Otherwise, it's theft, and you're helping to drive away local music stores that are already feeling pressure from online sales.
Sure, the material of a guitar is minimal cost. But there is skill and time involved in its construction, and very real overhead costs to craftsmen and retailers.
If you're offered a gift, it's a gift. If you distract someone and grab their stuff while they're not looking, you're a thief. Bad enough to be a thief, but let's not have you running off at the mouth justifying shoplifting like some teenage pseudo-anarchist who's read three words of Proudhon and thinks he's the second coming of Marx. That's just embarassing, coming from a grown man.
The best guitar in the world will cost a lot more than £250 to make - a Rio Rosewood back and sides set alone could set you back £500 plus. And then there is the time. Some hand built jobs will come in at 200 hours plus, especially if there is a lot of intricate inlay work.
Well i play triplets galore! and i do them all on a 1mm dunlop so no, its not unrealistic. I match them with heavy strings , 12 for the E. I tried smaller guages but have settled now for the last 15yrs or so. I buy them by the handfull 10 for 5e around here. I like to have a rake of them stashed away in my wallet. Nothing worse than no pick when you need one. I have never robbed plectrums, and consider myself a 'musician'.
Not to mind the labour involved to make 'em/
Plus the guys in the shops don't get them 9guitars or picks) for cost price either, so more than likely you're stealing off guys trying to earn an honest living.
Good man yerself.
Take bodhran sticks, which some people call tippers. Now I needed one once, picked out a really nice thin slinky black number, a fine bit of craftsmanship. The shop owner says "They are £8". I just laugh, and say "£8? Do you want me to call the police to report a theft", and put the stick in my pocket. He doesn't expect me to pay for it. The odd newcomer or mug might buy a tipper, or plectrums, but "real" musicians do not. The shop owner expects this.
Another store I use. The owner has three young staff as well. Now you go in and get a young server. "One of thoise nice Lauren classical guitars at £39, I need a bag for it, £10, and extra strings, £5" Now the young guy, not understanding how music shops work, will ask you for £54. The owner will say "Give us £30". That way, he knows you will return.
As for the guys trying to earn an "honest" living. At the shop where I steal most plectrums, the owner has just bought a new holiday home and a boat. If I had known that, I would have stole the guitar as well.
You see Jon K, some of us maintain our values, and remain pseudo anarchists, rather than sell out to middle class capitalism as we get older.
Robin Hood? Ah, you're a modern day Robin Hood, are you? How many tippers have you given to the poor lately? Do you go down to the Tesco and pocket a few cans of soup for the elderly as well? Or do you only steal from small local merchants, is that part of your code of honor that you refuse to sell out?
Ah so the pseudo-anarchist would prefer to do business in a “three floors high, a monstrous size of a shop” rather than bother finding a small local merchant.
I think that for an independent luthier to make a top quality high end guitar,the materials plus case is going to be well over a thousand pounds,then there's all the overheads,and if the guy wants a reasonable return for the hours spent,so that he can stay alive and in business,he or she will have to double that,and to take a bit of pressure off so there's time to experiment and have a bit of leisure,it's got to be around the three thousand mark,and that means no big mistakes,like dropping a chisel on the sound board or the neck warping.
Then there are th big name luthiers who charge much more,but then you're paying a lot for the name and cachet.
Factory made guitars have different economics.They spend a fortune on glossy adverts and sponsoring and shipping containers around the planet.
I play with my own natural fingers.Don't bother with no new fangled artificial aids like plectrums.
Jaysus – are there no small shops left in Belfast ?
Maybe they were all ripped off by “real” “musicians”.
Come on down to Dublin we’ve loads of them - plenty of real musicians keeping them in business.
At last, someone who knows what a "real" musician is, someone who understands the crack. I shall head down immediately, Walton's say, to support the small business in the Celtic Tiger.
And bar the size of the shops, he is right. A great guitar player and friend of mine lived in Ballymun for a few year. Just before the euro he got a guitar for £5, the strings cost more. Good guitar, however, although this bloke literally could play a tennis racket.
Naturally he got these items in a "second hand store" rather than a music shop, because the majority of music shops are massive nowadays, like everything else.
Mind you, he went to the music store to steal a few plectrums, being a real musician.
So Dublin appears to have "real" musicians, newcomer/mug types, and good old ordinary thieves who stole from the small business, the ordinary guy trying to keep things like they used to be. That's criminal, but then it was Dublin.
Might nip down some day to reconquer the place though.
Are u descended from they Viking marauders BB?
yup,i wasn't serious about plectrums.They are good for lots of things.I spent twenty years flatpicking bluegrass tunes til I realized the error of my ways.Don't like thieves though.They should all be hung on gibbetts at every crossroads,food for the crows.And ravens.
ah good man bb - typical of your logic - you name the biggest music chain store as if all the music stores are like that - try byrnes just around the cornor - nice family run place - nah don;t bother, you'll only try to steal something from them.
Continue "buying" in the big stores, and continue telling people what an anarchist you are....we believ you....honest.
One of my luthier buddies gets around 2000USD for his guitars and he figures if he works very efficiently, he can clear about 13USD per hour for his work. That’s about what a sales clerk in a small store makes.
I confess. I am not an anarchist. I am a devoted socialist, following in the footsteps of a noted Irishman, Thompson, A Scot, Connolly, and a scouser, Larkin.
But this conversation is daft, as it depends on the concept of a "real" musician. That does not have anything to do with playing ability.
Take Waltons. Now a real musician is not going to go in there and buy a bodhran, certainly not at that price. And if you do run up a bill in Waltons for say 40 Euros, well you do not pay for plectrums or tippers, they MUST be free, in a socialist world.
Same scenario in Byrnes, except Byrne's would not ask you to pay for the plectrums in the first place, as they, unlike the big stores, already accept the principle of a better distribution of the world's wealth.
Now if you walk into ANY shop, and all you want is 5 plectrums, they will all charge you. But real musicians do not do that.
It must be a British thing, this "real" musician concept.
Bliss old boy, I don't think you're any kind of socialist at all, devoted or otherwise. Generally, socialism as I've known it isn't founded on the abolition of property rights, as you're advocating, it's founded on a communal responsibility for some aspects of economic life, most generally the infrastructure like roads and bridges, as well as services which provide a benefit to the community when provided to the individual, eg police and fire, health care, immunizations, education, and the like. A socialist might argue that even those who lack children benefit from overall education of the little buggers, since even the childless will eventually be old and rely on the succeeding generation to keep things running - that's a socialist. A petty thief, on the other hand, might argue that somebody else has money, and therefore it is right and proper that I relieve them of some of it. That is what we call sophistry in defense of your own interest, that being shoplifting.
The only socialism you're advocating is the freelance sort - walking around socializing everything in sight, but let's hear you squawk when someone lays a hand on YOUR stuff. Then it's where's the cops when you need one, right?
Moving on - you're following in the footsteps of Larkin and Connolly? First you're Robin Hood, then you're leading the Easter Rising - what's next, you're Gandhi, passively resisting the imperialist shopkeepers? I'd like to hear you explain that one, just as soon as you've worked out some sort of connection between some imperialist war, which one you haven't specified but it sounds an awful lot like the one in Iraq, and petty theft for your own personal gain. Having done that, you can show us, your devoted pupils, the connection between fighting for the independence of the nation and pocketing everything that's not nailed down.
That's two answers you owe me. Let's have 'em,.
this conversation is totally pointless.. i buy plecs, my local place know me, and if i get em free from time to time, ok, im not complaining, but i'm not gonna automatically expect to get em free.. thats just being a presumptuous prick. and as for tippers, well i dunno bout yourself, but the ones i see in shops are usually them big knobbly unwieldy ones that are pretty useless except to the batterers. wouldnt dream of playing with one. i make all my own, some good, some not so good..
pick choice?
pick choice?
So, I just got a new instrument - a fylde touchstone octave mandolin (octave mandola, if you prefer). I like it a lot, and after trying numerous picks find I prefer a chunky (by my standards) .88 pick for tone. Sadly, this has set me back on my triplets, which are handleable on my previous .60 picks. Is it a reasonable expectation to be able to play that ornament on the heavier pick, or am I simply iceskating uphill here? Which picks do you folks prefer?
T.J.
# Posted on December 3rd 2007 by reenactor
Re: pick choice?
dunno about mandolins - for shortscale tenor banjo I used D'Andrea pro brite 0.73 but for some reason Clayton imitation tortoiseshell 0.72 seem to work better on longscale tenors I now play.
Try re-cutting the pointy end of the pick - if you form a fairly oblique angle with a distinct, sharp apex you might get a better result for triplets (and for overall crispness too) than with the steeper angled but rounded ends of most proprietary picks.
# Posted on December 3rd 2007 by millionyears_bc
Re: pick choice?
Try Dunlop ultex 0.60s, that what I use on my Cittern.
You can get them on ebay in packs of 12.
# Posted on December 3rd 2007 by seaniemcg
Re: pick choice?
millionyears_bc - recutting the pick is something I never considered. Thanks!
seaniemcg - those dunlops *were* my preferred pick, but they don't get quite the sound I'm looking for out of this instrument. If I don't come up with a better solution, they are exactly what I'll use
Thanks.
# Posted on December 3rd 2007 by reenactor
Re: pick choice?
I have the same instrument, I hope you get as much fun out of yours as I do with mine. My current favourite pick is a .73 wedgie, I like the roughened and shaped grip. Jim Dunlop nylon .73's also suit me and the Herco Gold flex 50's seem to last for ages.
One day I will find the magic pick, lightening triplets with plenty of volume, until then I suppose I wil just have to practice.
# Posted on December 3rd 2007 by len
Re: pick choice?
Andy Irvine uses Dunlop green Tortex 0.88mm on his octave mandolin...I find them a bit too hard, but you should try em out.
All the best with it!
# Posted on December 3rd 2007 by seaniemcg
Re: pick choice?
Worth having a look at:
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/15130/comments#comment312225
# Posted on December 4th 2007 by Lurcherjohn
Re: pick choice?
0.60mm should be ok. When you are next in the music shop, order a set of strings and throw 10 picks into your pocket while they are getting you the strings. Dunlop, grey colour.
Real musicians never buy plectri (?) plectrums.
# Posted on December 4th 2007 by bodhran bliss
Re: pick choice?
Years ago I bought a gross of picks from John Pearse, which I still favor and I'm still playing the last of the original gross. These are just about the only thing I use for flatpicking, I can't quite hit the triplets with anything else. I don't know what the material is ("pre-war quality viscoloid", if that means anything to anyone - some sort of celluloid maybe?), but it seems to have a quicker response than the Dunlops or the Claytons.
Now for banjo I'll use a big trianglular Clayton, I forget the gauge exactly and it's worn off the pick so I'll have to figure it out if I lose that one, and if I'm playing mostly rhythm I'll go to something a little softer (Dulop orange, most likely) and for most songs I use my fingers, but for tunes it's the JP Studio Blacks.
And BB - the bit about ripping off the music shops, I'm not sure I got the joke. I know you weren't being serious about stealing from people who make their living off of stuff like strings and picks, that would be vile - but where's the punchline?
# Posted on December 4th 2007 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: pick choice?
An advertisement calls it "bright and loud." I would think a .88mm would dim that brightness.
Even with a .88mm you should be able to get the triplets back but you'll need to loosen your hold on the pick, and then I'm not sure if you would be happy with the lack of attack. Some others here have suggested a .73mm compromise and maybe that's a better idea than an 88.
But actually there's an old rule that might be the best: When you experiment, change only one thing at a time. If you just changed instruments, stay with your .60 and give it some time. Later, try different strings for a different tone. Later, try something else.
Good luck. I'm envious.
# Posted on December 4th 2007 by BarryM
Re: pick choice?
Dunlop .06's are grand but you all should try out Herdim three sided plecs.
One plectrum, three thicknesses... NICE
# Posted on December 4th 2007 by session savage
Re: pick choice?
I use Gibson heavy mandolin teardrop picks which my dial calipers say are 0.90 mm thick though I can't seem to buy them anymore and have to keep resharpening the ends of the ones that I have left.
I think it is a very personal thing but I prefer a lighter pick for strumming and a heavier pick for flatpicking. The heavier pick to my mind certainly gives the better tone and, for me, better control. I had a friend bring half a gross of Fender celluloid medium picks (0.56 mm) but they keep breaking and are to floopy for my heavy hand.
# Posted on December 4th 2007 by DonaldK
Re: pick choice?
That'll be back from the states and floppy. Mmm? Floopy? I like that word.
# Posted on December 4th 2007 by DonaldK
Re: pick choice?
Thanks for all the help! So, I'm going to stick with my dunlop .60s for a while (changing only one thing at a time), and probably get some .72/.73 picks to play around with (see if I can't get some meatier tone out of this thing eventually.
Oh, and although I'm relatively clueless in the "instruments-you-pick-not-bow" area I've got to recommend this fylde. It's probably a better instrument than I deserve right now.
T.J.
# Posted on December 4th 2007 by reenactor
Re: pick choice?
BB
tell us you were joking
# Posted on December 4th 2007 by millionyears_bc
Re: pick choice?
And BB - the bit about ripping off the music shops,
You are having a laugh?
My friend makes small harps, and sells them to school children, £300, so he is making a profit. A music shop got 6 of him, and sold them at £1,200.
Ripping off music shops? The best guitar in the world could not cost more than £250 to make, so the dearest guitar should be about £500.
As for plectrums, they cost wholesale 10 for a penny, but sell at 30p each. Music shops do not expect you to pay for plectrums, if you are a real musician, and always getting stuff of them.
In short, musical instruments are second only to coffins when it comes to a rip off mark up price.
No, I was not joking.
# Posted on December 4th 2007 by bodhran bliss
Re: pick choice?
I am still somewhat amused by this. When shopping in a music shop, always get a number of items.
Example; Two Christmas's ago, I decide to get a reasonable semi-acoustic guitar for my son. The guitar "expert" in the shop immediately goes to a nice Yamaha, retail price £620 but reduced to £425. So we go for that, best gold plated lead at £30, strings, two Lee Oskar blues harps, capo, and whatever, bring the bill to £590. While they are doing all this I casually and openly select about 10 plectrums, different gauges. Now no honest person is going to attempt to charge you for these.
I then waited until they had packed everything up, and then told the shop that I only had £450. They snatched my hand off, as they are still making a handsome profit.
I remember my son coming home from town, aged 14, with a load of plectrums, claiming that he was now a "real" musician.
# Posted on December 4th 2007 by bodhran bliss
Re: pick choice?
bb - a quick lesson in economics;
By buying plectrums in the shop, you are helping to pay the guy's rent, business rates, heating and lighting bills, the times he sits there and nobody comes in but the mortgage ( as Ry Cooder sang ) works the hardest of us all; his expertise, the fact that he had an instrument on the wall that he'd reduced because it was better to get back the money he'd laid out and a small profit to keep things turning over.
I've also heard it argued that an instrument-maker needs to charge 3 times what it actually costs to make an individual instrument, when he sells it, to make a profit.
And most of us would admit we need and respect these instrument-makers and sellers.
# Posted on December 4th 2007 by Guernsey Pete
Re: pick choice?
His expertise? He was a banana importer, doesn't know one end of a guitar from a clarinet, but he is a salesman.
Plectrums are gifts, believe me.
Was at a party once, and came across the best guitar ever seen, and sounded beautiful. My mate, a guitar expert, was willing to swap his Lakewood for it, or swap his friend's Lowden for it. But the owner would not part with it as he said it would take him a few months at night class to make another one! True story. As he said himself, put a sticker saying Lowden on it and it was worth £3,000. Cost £200 to make. Really beautiful guitar.
Think of guitar shops as furniture shops. You go into a furniture shop with £2,000 in your pocket, they will sell you ANY suite in the shop, doesn't matter if it is marked at £7,000.
So, my way, the shop is just stealing a bit less from you.
Remember, all business people are corrupt, and basically thieves.
# Posted on December 4th 2007 by bodhran bliss
Re: pick choice?
BB,
Wow, I thought you were making a joke in incredibly poor taste. You know, in my career as a musician, I've always been able to afford plectrums - in fact, I take that as a sign that I'm a "real" musician, in contrast to your view. Now when I teach through a shop, I get freebies, but I make sure that *they* give them to me. That's what a gift is. Otherwise, it's theft, and you're helping to drive away local music stores that are already feeling pressure from online sales.
Sure, the material of a guitar is minimal cost. But there is skill and time involved in its construction, and very real overhead costs to craftsmen and retailers.
# Posted on December 4th 2007 by reenactor
Re: pick choice?
If any one can morally justify charging 30 pence for a plectrum, go ahead.
And maybe we live in different cultures. Newcomers buy plectrums around here, musicians help themselves to them.
# Posted on December 4th 2007 by bodhran bliss
Re: pick choice?
If you're offered a gift, it's a gift. If you distract someone and grab their stuff while they're not looking, you're a thief. Bad enough to be a thief, but let's not have you running off at the mouth justifying shoplifting like some teenage pseudo-anarchist who's read three words of Proudhon and thinks he's the second coming of Marx. That's just embarassing, coming from a grown man.
# Posted on December 5th 2007 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: pick choice?
The best guitar in the world will cost a lot more than £250 to make - a Rio Rosewood back and sides set alone could set you back £500 plus. And then there is the time. Some hand built jobs will come in at 200 hours plus, especially if there is a lot of intricate inlay work.
# Posted on December 5th 2007 by DonaldK
Re: pick choice?
Well i play triplets galore! and i do them all on a 1mm dunlop so no, its not unrealistic. I match them with heavy strings , 12 for the E. I tried smaller guages but have settled now for the last 15yrs or so. I buy them by the handfull 10 for 5e around here. I like to have a rake of them stashed away in my wallet. Nothing worse than no pick when you need one. I have never robbed plectrums, and consider myself a 'musician'.
# Posted on December 5th 2007 by jig
Re: pick choice?
Not to mind the labour involved to make 'em/
Plus the guys in the shops don't get them 9guitars or picks) for cost price either, so more than likely you're stealing off guys trying to earn an honest living.
Good man yerself.
# Posted on December 5th 2007 by BegF
Re: pick choice?
As a "real" musician can I explain.
Take bodhran sticks, which some people call tippers. Now I needed one once, picked out a really nice thin slinky black number, a fine bit of craftsmanship. The shop owner says "They are £8". I just laugh, and say "£8? Do you want me to call the police to report a theft", and put the stick in my pocket. He doesn't expect me to pay for it. The odd newcomer or mug might buy a tipper, or plectrums, but "real" musicians do not. The shop owner expects this.
Another store I use. The owner has three young staff as well. Now you go in and get a young server. "One of thoise nice Lauren classical guitars at £39, I need a bag for it, £10, and extra strings, £5" Now the young guy, not understanding how music shops work, will ask you for £54. The owner will say "Give us £30". That way, he knows you will return.
As for the guys trying to earn an "honest" living. At the shop where I steal most plectrums, the owner has just bought a new holiday home and a boat. If I had known that, I would have stole the guitar as well.
You see Jon K, some of us maintain our values, and remain pseudo anarchists, rather than sell out to middle class capitalism as we get older.
# Posted on December 5th 2007 by bodhran bliss
Re: pick choice?
But your not real , your a pseudo anarchist - and it's obvious, the pseudo guys make a big deal about it to show off - you're a poser !
# Posted on December 6th 2007 by BegF
Re: pick choice?
Just like Robin Hood? He was a legend as well.
# Posted on December 6th 2007 by bodhran bliss
Re: pick choice?
Robin Hood? Ah, you're a modern day Robin Hood, are you? How many tippers have you given to the poor lately? Do you go down to the Tesco and pocket a few cans of soup for the elderly as well? Or do you only steal from small local merchants, is that part of your code of honor that you refuse to sell out?
# Posted on December 6th 2007 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: pick choice?
small local merchants?
The music shop is three floors high, a monstrous size of a shop. I do not live in Hicksville.
And the elderly worship me, they want to make me into some kind of legendary "Do-Gooder". God bless ,em.
And all of this reminds me that I need more plectrums, having distributed most of the others to the needy.
# Posted on December 6th 2007 by bodhran bliss
Re: pick choice?
Ah so the pseudo-anarchist would prefer to do business in a “three floors high, a monstrous size of a shop” rather than bother finding a small local merchant.
Good man.
# Posted on December 6th 2007 by BegF
Re: pick choice?
I think that for an independent luthier to make a top quality high end guitar,the materials plus case is going to be well over a thousand pounds,then there's all the overheads,and if the guy wants a reasonable return for the hours spent,so that he can stay alive and in business,he or she will have to double that,and to take a bit of pressure off so there's time to experiment and have a bit of leisure,it's got to be around the three thousand mark,and that means no big mistakes,like dropping a chisel on the sound board or the neck warping.
Then there are th big name luthiers who charge much more,but then you're paying a lot for the name and cachet.
Factory made guitars have different economics.They spend a fortune on glossy adverts and sponsoring and shipping containers around the planet.
I play with my own natural fingers.Don't bother with no new fangled artificial aids like plectrums.
# Posted on December 6th 2007 by wolfbird
Re: pick choice?
Jaysus, now I have to go to the good old US of A to get a plectrum?
And Wolfbird, I can't use a plectrum on a guitar, but it is a must for the mandolin.
Hasta La Victoria Siempre.
# Posted on December 6th 2007 by bodhran bliss
Re: pick choice?
Jaysus – are there no small shops left in Belfast ?
Maybe they were all ripped off by “real” “musicians”.
Come on down to Dublin we’ve loads of them - plenty of real musicians keeping them in business.
# Posted on December 6th 2007 by BegF
Re: pick choice?
At last, someone who knows what a "real" musician is, someone who understands the crack. I shall head down immediately, Walton's say, to support the small business in the Celtic Tiger.
And bar the size of the shops, he is right. A great guitar player and friend of mine lived in Ballymun for a few year. Just before the euro he got a guitar for £5, the strings cost more. Good guitar, however, although this bloke literally could play a tennis racket.
Naturally he got these items in a "second hand store" rather than a music shop, because the majority of music shops are massive nowadays, like everything else.
Mind you, he went to the music store to steal a few plectrums, being a real musician.
So Dublin appears to have "real" musicians, newcomer/mug types, and good old ordinary thieves who stole from the small business, the ordinary guy trying to keep things like they used to be. That's criminal, but then it was Dublin.
Might nip down some day to reconquer the place though.
# Posted on December 6th 2007 by bodhran bliss
Re: pick choice?
Are u descended from they Viking marauders BB?
yup,i wasn't serious about plectrums.They are good for lots of things.I spent twenty years flatpicking bluegrass tunes til I realized the error of my ways.Don't like thieves though.They should all be hung on gibbetts at every crossroads,food for the crows.And ravens.
# Posted on December 6th 2007 by wolfbird
Re: pick choice?
ah good man bb - typical of your logic - you name the biggest music chain store as if all the music stores are like that - try byrnes just around the cornor - nice family run place - nah don;t bother, you'll only try to steal something from them.
Continue "buying" in the big stores, and continue telling people what an anarchist you are....we believ you....honest.
# Posted on December 6th 2007 by BegF
Re: pick choice?
One of my luthier buddies gets around 2000USD for his guitars and he figures if he works very efficiently, he can clear about 13USD per hour for his work. That’s about what a sales clerk in a small store makes.
# Posted on December 6th 2007 by Bob himself
Re: pick choice?
I confess. I am not an anarchist. I am a devoted socialist, following in the footsteps of a noted Irishman, Thompson, A Scot, Connolly, and a scouser, Larkin.
But this conversation is daft, as it depends on the concept of a "real" musician. That does not have anything to do with playing ability.
Take Waltons. Now a real musician is not going to go in there and buy a bodhran, certainly not at that price. And if you do run up a bill in Waltons for say 40 Euros, well you do not pay for plectrums or tippers, they MUST be free, in a socialist world.
Same scenario in Byrnes, except Byrne's would not ask you to pay for the plectrums in the first place, as they, unlike the big stores, already accept the principle of a better distribution of the world's wealth.
Now if you walk into ANY shop, and all you want is 5 plectrums, they will all charge you. But real musicians do not do that.
It must be a British thing, this "real" musician concept.
# Posted on December 6th 2007 by bodhran bliss
Re: pick choice?
And you probably get plectrums in brown envelopes and brown paper bags in Dublin.
Still, I enjoy being the "Dillinger" of the yellow board.
# Posted on December 7th 2007 by bodhran bliss
Re: pick choice?
Bliss old boy, I don't think you're any kind of socialist at all, devoted or otherwise. Generally, socialism as I've known it isn't founded on the abolition of property rights, as you're advocating, it's founded on a communal responsibility for some aspects of economic life, most generally the infrastructure like roads and bridges, as well as services which provide a benefit to the community when provided to the individual, eg police and fire, health care, immunizations, education, and the like. A socialist might argue that even those who lack children benefit from overall education of the little buggers, since even the childless will eventually be old and rely on the succeeding generation to keep things running - that's a socialist. A petty thief, on the other hand, might argue that somebody else has money, and therefore it is right and proper that I relieve them of some of it. That is what we call sophistry in defense of your own interest, that being shoplifting.
The only socialism you're advocating is the freelance sort - walking around socializing everything in sight, but let's hear you squawk when someone lays a hand on YOUR stuff. Then it's where's the cops when you need one, right?
Moving on - you're following in the footsteps of Larkin and Connolly? First you're Robin Hood, then you're leading the Easter Rising - what's next, you're Gandhi, passively resisting the imperialist shopkeepers? I'd like to hear you explain that one, just as soon as you've worked out some sort of connection between some imperialist war, which one you haven't specified but it sounds an awful lot like the one in Iraq, and petty theft for your own personal gain. Having done that, you can show us, your devoted pupils, the connection between fighting for the independence of the nation and pocketing everything that's not nailed down.
That's two answers you owe me. Let's have 'em,.
# Posted on December 7th 2007 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: pick choice?
You seem to have answered all your own questions, to your own satisfaction I am sure.
Hasta La Victoria Siempre.
# Posted on December 7th 2007 by bodhran bliss
Re: pick choice?
this conversation is totally pointless.. i buy plecs, my local place know me, and if i get em free from time to time, ok, im not complaining, but i'm not gonna automatically expect to get em free.. thats just being a presumptuous prick. and as for tippers, well i dunno bout yourself, but the ones i see in shops are usually them big knobbly unwieldy ones that are pretty useless except to the batterers. wouldnt dream of playing with one. i make all my own, some good, some not so good..
# Posted on December 10th 2007 by diarmaidanconnachtach
Re: pick choice?
Most sticks are useless, so why charge £6 for them? I pick out the one good long, thin one, and pocket that.
As for being a presumptuous prick, I rather like to think I am slightly better educated than many.
Including the entire population of Tubbercurry.
# Posted on December 12th 2007 by bodhran bliss