(That tune is wrong in its writing and midi because I re-posted it later with the good version ... as a result, the good name has been given to the wrong tune, and the rest of the post has been deleted. The modification only appears in the comments. One more thing I don't understand, Ceolachan...)
If some shrewd people could enlight me about this... thanks.
Re: Is a tune traditional on this site because of its oldness or the origin of its composer?
A tune is "traditional" when it has been embraced and played by individuals (and groups) in the community concerned. The age and origin is not so relevant as the TIME the tune has survived in the repertoire of amateur musicians. If Flavour Of The Month was the indicator, then surely Galway Girl would be the all-time greatest "traditional" song.
Re: Is a tune traditional on this site because of its oldness or the origin of its composer?
Why in the world would ITM be mentioned in the same breath or have any relevance to the concept of "political accountability"
The reason ITM is still being played is a testament to the Irish people's resistance to political suppression (aka 'political acountability') of their culture and their music.
Re: Is a tune traditional on this site because of its oldness or the origin of its composer?
Usually a "traditional" tune is one that doesn't really have a known composer, meaning that it's probably been around a while. However, there are many newly composed tunes that are played as often as so-called traditional tunes, such as Paddy Fahey's, Ed Reavy's, and Martin Wynne's tunes. Although their composers are acknowledged (often in the title of the tune), most people have accepted them into the tradition. Mostly, it's based on how widely accepted and played the tune is, and the style in which it was written, rather than how old or by whom it was written.
It has to be subjective.
Tunes have certain characteristics which are 'subjectively' considered part of the tradition.
On this site many people consider Irish traditional session music to be dance tunes. It does not mean everything you hear in session will be Irish or traditional or dance (or music?) Anything else, not "of" the tradition cannot be presented timidly. Tradition changes over time; not because someone has a new tune but because a new tune has something.
And that is, as they say ~ subjective.
Re: Is a tune traditional on this site because of its oldness or the origin of its composer?
"Traditional" usually refers to being passed down through the generations. "Anon" or "gan ainm" (Irish) means the composer is unknown. Sometimes "traditional" is used in place of "gan ainm," but I think they refer to separate categories. I think you can have a traditional tune where the composer is known. If you have one where the composer is unknown, then indicate it with "gan ainm." This makes the most sense to me, but since we’re talking about folk music the logic may vary.
Re: Is a tune traditional on this site because of its oldness or the origin of its composer?
Indeed MacCruiskeen.
Besides many Scottish tunes which have found their way into Irish music session repertoires...worldwide, Calliope House springs to mind as a tune which, although written by an Englishman dave Richardson, must one of the most session-played "Irish" tunes around.
I sniff a hidden agenda in this thread, a plea for acceptance of the tune written by mister z's....ermm..."friend"...but what would I know?
Re: Is a tune traditional on this site because of its oldness or the origin of its composer?
Yea, reading back over what I said now I can see the error. 'Gan ainm' means 'without name' even if the composer is known. Thanks for pointing that out.
Re: Is a tune traditional on this site because of its oldness or the origin of its composer?
Phantom Button's one-liner covers the spirit of it.
" "Traditional" usually refers to being passed down through the generations"
It is not necessary for a tradition to be far-flung.
Re: Is a tune traditional on this site because of its oldness or the origin of its composer?
I think that "traditional" refers simply to what extent the tune is accepted into the tradition. Isn't that all that matters? There are some tunes that seem to fit the definition of a traditional tune; however, they are seldom played and therefore not being passed on the same way that a more newly composed tune may be. I think it's perfectly acceptable for a tune with a known composer to be labeled as traditional, provided that it is given the same treatment within the tradition as a tune without a composer.
Re: Is a tune traditional on this site because of its oldness or the origin of its composer?
IMO, a tune is a tune is a tune no matter when or by whom it was written. If it fits the metre, structure and style of a genre, it belongs in the genre. "Traditional" is a category covering indigenous music with deep roots in any given culture. Living cultures with vibrant musical traditions continuously produce new tunes that gain acceptance by the merits of the melody itself, not the fogginess of its origin.
Very few well-known players avoid tunes simply because the origins are known. A quick perusal of the liner notes on most "pure drop" albums will reveal efforts are made to discover and share the origins of each melody, and the composer is very often known. In fact, knowing this important information is (again IMO) one of the marks of a player who cares deeply about the music and the people who wrote it and is deeply immersed in the culture.
Also, I don't know many great players who don't churn out new tunes when the spirit moves.
You often hear something like "this is an old one", meaning the origins have been lost to the mists of time, but for the most part somebody somewhere knows (or THINKS they know) where whatever tune I'm playing came from, even if I don't, which is most of the time since I'm a dabbler.
I don't subscribe to the attitude a tune has to be old to be traditional, as it implies to me the culture it has come from is dead. A quick trip to Ireland or Quebec is enough to dispel any such illusion.
I suspected that kind of "parish-pump quarrel" while posting this thread. That means there's no absolute truth. And I'm pleased with that only truth...
Re: Is a tune traditional on this site because of its oldness or the origin of its composer?
I once read that traditional music could be defined in terms of "continuity, variation and selection." That is to say, the music is links the past and the present (often in the form that "that's because how it was done" is a valid argument); allows for variation and creates new material; and the community vets the variations and decides what forms the music shall continue in.
The validity of this argument is oft debated, but I think it's a pretty decent place to start.
Re: Is a tune traditional on this site because of its oldness or the origin of its composer?
' "that's because how it was done" is a valid argument...'
But not one you can accept,Andy V? Or not entirely ?
Because I thought your preciously stated position was that there is no 'correct form' ?
I'd say that "because that's how it was done" ,coming from the bearers of the tradition,is a definition of 'correct form'.
The important aspect is the source of the statement.The validity of the argument is diminished,or disappears altogether,if it comes without the authority of those who actually carry the tradition.
Of course,there will never be one precise fixed static view of 'correct',it will always be debated,refined and developed.But that's not the same thing as saying that there is no 'correct form' whatsoever and so 'anything goes'.
Re: Is a tune traditional on this site because of its oldness or the origin of its composer?
Yes,dogmageek,it's a fascinating topic in so many ways...it touches on deeply political and ideological issues...does the music belong 'to the people' or is it 'individual property'?
There are countless examples where land,fishing,and other resources were held in common by an ethnic group.ITM might be seen in that way.And there are countless examples of where the resources that once belonged to everybody get expropriated,often by force or trickery,to become the private property of whoever has seized them.The dominant mainstream capitalist system sees everything as a resource to be exploited for profit,and any infringement of that 'right' as theft.
Even the rain that falls freely from the sky get's somehow magically converted into a bottled commodity that we have to pay for.
Re: Is a tune traditional on this site because of its oldness or the origin of its composer?
No, the argument that the sole definition of what is traditional is based upon the argument that "that is how it was done in the past" is not one that I accept. Personally, I take form and function as more important: for example the previously mentioned 'Calliope House' (composed by Dave Richardson) is, harmonically and structurally traditional and fits into the tradition. 'Music for a Found Harmonium' is definitively not, its structure and its harmonic properties don't allow it to fit into the tradition as we know it. Nontheles, both these tunes have been in circulation for over 20 years which, for me at least, is past prior to my birth - or of the generation before me. So if that argument is the one that you use to define traditional, both those tunes should be traditional (at least to me).
For me, that ain't right. So, I have to alter my definition. That said, I still think that starting with 'continuity, variation and selection' lie at the level above - i.e. they are the macroscopic rules that govern all traditional musics, but for the music that is traditional for me I need a more microscopic set of rules.
The trouble with the phrase 'correct' is that it's so subjective. You play the Irish version of 'Mrs McLeod's Reel' to a Scotsman and he'll most probably tell you it should be in A, not G, and that you're playing the B part before the A. The only way you can define a correct in that situation is add qualifiers. If said Boarder Scotsman plays the same tune in his local style to a Shetlander, the Shetlander will most probably comment upon the greater number of changes of bow direction - neither are correct unless you expand on what you mean by correct. No matter how far down you take it, you invariably find yourself needing to define correct in the situation, only to find that another sub-level sits below it, until you finally reach the level of self-analysis.
Of course, it only matters if you either want or need to create definitions: but to me the most important part of my criteria are they they can become fluid when they no longer work for me.
Apologies for the long post, I just didn't feel I could properly explain myself with less words
Re: Is a tune traditional on this site because of its oldness or the origin of its composer?
Yes,Andy V, I agree that 'correct' is completely subjective - objectivity doesn't come into it - and I like your examples of Irish,Scottish,and Shetland 'bearers of the tradition' each having a different view as to 'correctness'.That's exactly what I meant above,by the ongoing debate.You could probably include even more divergent opinions on 'Mrs.Mcleod's' from Nova Scotia or it's transition into Oldtime and Bluegrass styles.
I realise that 'correct' is a can of worms,but that's not to the same as saying that there is no such thing as 'correct'.It's not an abstract term in this context.It's defined in relation to the body of music that the particular tradition maintains,and the only subjective opinion that has authority is the voice of someone within that tradition.
I see this as a bit comparable to spoken regional accents,or traditions of vernacular architecture.For example,within the tradition of using thatch as a roofing material there are sub-divisions,e.g.straw versus reed,and local preferences for a particular style.
What drew me into this was the previous thread re elitism.Who decides what is authentic,and what is 'correct form' ? is it the local craftsman who has a lifetime of experience doing it the way he was taught by his grandfather as a boy? Or is it someone from outside the area who has never thatched a roof ?
I am going to bet Simon Jeffes never played Music for a Found Harmonium in a trad session.
Is it now played in Irish session because session players thought it might work or ~ because of who introduced the tune? For example; Kevin Burke, Sharon Shannon, Nollaig Casey . . .
Re: Is a tune traditional on this site because of its oldness or the origin of its composer?
As for the example of Music for a Found Harmonium, I think that the may well have been played and popularized if those certain people hadn't recorded/performed it, but it wouldn't have gotten the same publicity. I still don't think that particular tune would be considered "traditional" by most, simply because it doesn't really fit the pattern for a trad tune. But it certainly makes a tune more legitimate for it to be played by a great or well-known player. It probably didn't hurt for that tune to be played at the end of Napoleon Dynamite either! Another similar tune that comes to mind would be something like the Hey Jude Hornpipe played by De Danann. Still not really a trad. tune, but not that uncommonly played, if only for laughs. I know they were the ones responsible for writing it as a hornpipe, but no one would probably ever play the tune if it hadn't been played by De Danann first.
Re: Is a tune traditional on this site because of its oldness or the origin of its composer?
Wolfbird; I don't know, that might depend on whether the thatcher's peers agree on whether or not he's done a good job! I'm sure you won't be surprised that I have to hold my hands up and confess a total ignorance of thatching, but I suspect you're really asking is:
'Are the opinions of academics worth anything?'
I'm afraid that's up to you to decide, I can't make that judgement for you. For me, given what I do and the style in which I have to write on topics, it has to be. If you feel that traditional music has, like the rivers and land of the country been appropriated by an elite, which includes anyone who studies traditional music academically, then I'm not going to attempt to denigrate your opinions or get involved further other than say that we must agree to differ.
By all accounts, the only reason I really get involved in these discussions is either to add something that I think might not otherwise be mentioned, to challenge some notion that perhaps people haven't thoroughly thought through, or to offer advice on technical matters.
To continue my analogy from above to the next stage: if you wander into a musical gathering in any community where traditional music is played, and ask every single musician to play some well known and old tune of your choice and record the result. They won't all play it the same way, they'll all have different perceptions of it, even if it's in the tiniest detail. The tempos might be slightly different, they might chose to finish it in a particular way, different instruments will use different ornaments, use slightly different techniques, some might chose to play some variations. How would you then chose who is right? They can't all be right, they're different. Hence, they must all be wrong.
That's why, to me, I can't define a 'correct,' because the closer you get to it, I always realise I'm sooner or later going to have to make a personal value judgement. Because if you asked those same people who has the right way of playing it, they'd probably point to the oldest man in the room. And he'd probably say "naw, I don't play it right. Now me old man/grandfather, he had a way of playing it that made ya stand up and dance. Twas a wonderful thing to hear."
I do seem to be contributing a lot of needless words to this thread...I think perhaps I'll call it a day here!
Re: Is a tune traditional on this site because of its oldness or the origin of its composer?
Thanks for taking the time Andy V.I'm really not trying to pick a fight over whether academics are of any value They have to justify their existence,same as many other people.IMO,what they ought to be doing is to clarify problems that other people don't have the time and intellectual resources to be able to do.
I now know why we are seeing this differently.Your example of the players is illuminating.IMO,the way you arrive at your conclusion 'they can't all be right therefore must be wrong' is flawed logic,it's philosophically obsolete logic,and as an academic,you,or your teachers should know better.Precisely the same problem has been found in parallel disciplines,such as theology,the law,archaeology,anthropology,not to mention philosophy,where it has been found that it is impossible to arrive at a precise definition that can be agreed.The hermeneutic spiral.But it's not my place to lecture you here.I think what you've said is worthwhile,stimulating,not 'needless words' at all,so thanks for it.
For us mere mortals we feel the tunes are played the right way by someone else.
The majority of us continue to pursue something elusive ~ we say to ourselves (if not aloud) "that's the way to play that tune!" We hear it, feel it, sense it. But it is a new pursuit at each session. It is traditional because we persist. Because we remember. Because we breath.
Apparently the best of us persist as well;
“As long as you know you've got something to learn, you'll continue to improve. The way I look at it, by the time I reckon I'll be good enough, I'll be too old.”
—Matt Molloy
Re: Is a tune traditional on this site because of its oldness or the origin of its composer?
Actually, that was my point, if I search for a 'correct' I hit the paradox / flawed logic conundrum you state (and I think you might have thought was my point).
I guess you could sum my point up as "they can't all be right, so they must be wrong is a paradox because it requires a correct form to be an incorrect from. So right cannot exist in a universal pure state." Which in itself is bad logic but, because whenever I try do define correct this is the paradox I face, is the best definition I've so far come up with. I guess my point was sort of the same as yours, no entire group will ever agree the definition, and if a definition is rejected can it be really meaningful? Otherwise you do end up with an elite who create and uphold the definitions. And who'd want that?
For what it's worth, I was sort of playing devil's advocate here. Personally, I hear a lot of music that sounds "right" to me. In my honest opinion, the ONLY place to start is with your ears. But for me, I can hear gypsy jazz and hear a tradition (its my second love after trad as is discussed here), I hear blues, gospel, jazz, eastern European music and I can hear the tradition. I can hear tradition in the YouTube clip that started this whole thing off. To be sure, that fiddler needs to make technical adjustments if she wants to be accepted into any tradition I've ever come across, her technique is not right for any style I recognise. It's up to her though, if it makes her happy I'd hope to be the last person to tell her to stop.
But, at the same time, I'm currently listening to a bluegrass version of the Snoop Dogg song "Gin & Juice," (cos its making me smile whilst I'm writing a music analysis essay due tomorrow & I'm due in at 9) so what do I know? At the very least, I should stick to my work schedule!
I thought this started with a composition by Nollaig Casey.
I have not seen a link to any 'Recordings' of her (or anyone else) playing said tune. Much less a YouTube clip. Excuse me while I dab the mustard off my face & do a search on YouTube.
The exchange between Wolfbird and myself is one that sort of started in the elitism thread because I wanted to challenge the perception of how people would define a correct style as I felt the term was being bandied about too freely.
Re: Is a tune traditional on this site because of its oldness or the origin of its composer?
Andy V,this is a bit complicated to explain in a paragraph,but the situation you described so well above,where you have a group of players each with a different version,and the impossibility to decide which is correct,became apparent to philosophers in the 19thC when trying to decide how to choose between different translations of lines of biblical text from ancient manuscripts.Because it was absolutely impossible to prefer one over another using rational criteria,they were stuck in the paradox you mentioned above.To progress it was neccessary to rethink their logical approach,so there's about 150 years of arguments on the topic and mountains of books.It's too much for me to put into a nutshell,but that's my angle on the problem,FWIW
Re: Is a tune traditional on this site because of its oldness or the origin of its composer?
Glad to see De Danann's version of Hey Jude get a mention- I love the third part where they reel it up. As fidDleo says, maybe not trad as such, but fun.
Re: Is a tune traditional on this site because of its oldness or the origin of its composer?
Great discussion folks, followed with enjoyment and respect, but i have to disagree with Pk! Hey jude!? fun?!!! thats what the FF button is for! I could'nt bear it! awfull alltogether. Id rather go to the dentist than listen to that.
Re: Is a tune traditional on this site because of its oldness or the origin of its composer?
Well, jig, I didn't like the McCartney version, so I suppose this version came as a pleasant surprise! To set it in context, on my CD it comes immediately before the song 'My Irish Molly- O'- now that would send anyone clamouring to see the dentist
Re: Is a tune traditional on this site because of its oldness or the origin of its composer?
I'm not talking now about music,or ITM in particular,but rather the intellectual problem of how to decide which of a set of interpretations is 'correct' (or most accurate or best or whatever.) and who is entitled to make a judgement that is backed by authority.
It's the kind of problem that'll make anyones brain ache, because,as Andy V illustrated so well above,if you've got ten different versions by ten different players,all of whom are respected,how can anybody say which is 'correct',except from a totally subjective position,which is really no better than saying 'I prefer blue socks to green socks,and I don't know why'.
My point is,that this paradox has already turned up in many other fields.The simple logic that poses a 'right' versus 'wrong' choice cannot deal with the paradox.The philosophers,who are the folks who enjoy working on such conundrums,came up with hermeneutics,as the answer,see for example
I have to admit it's a somewhat rarified subject that probably doesn't appeal to many,but there you go
Regarding ITM,I believe that valid authority rests with the bearers of the tradition themselves,IMHO. Academics and others are entitled to observe and form their opinions,of course,but they cannot claim primary authority.However,if we were talking about an extinct tradition,(say the music of prehistoric Sumeria or some such),then the academics would be the only authority and the best palce to turn to seek informed opinions.
Re: Is a tune traditional on this site because of its oldness or the origin of its composer?
Heeeey, I didn't jump it, I initially offered a reply to the opening question and then was called upon to explain two potentially conflicting statements. Besides, considering some of the appalling hi-jacks in the past by MG, Dow and the old hands, this is small fry! It sort of relates to the question anyway.
Wolfbird; I'm afraid my understanding in the application of hermeneutics isn't full enough to offer any robust response involving them this debate, sorry. However, I think if you re-read from the very start of this subject you'll realise that you've drifted a bit and tried to shuffle my argument into an indefensible position (i.e. your last statement was never mentioned anywhere by me). As any further discussion on my part would leave me accused / or dangerously close to the implication that I think trad music should only be for the elite, I'm done.
I am not sure who the hijacker was . . .
Andy if you are going to do something then do it.
Dow never does anything ~ sort of.
I dig through the archives & now that I have the context . . .
Welshman . . . frisbee . . . New Jersey? I can better understand what you are saying.
Frankly I am still trying to comprehend Mister Z's intent.
If the tune he refers to has merit I would, at the very least, like to hear the recording. (Anybody?) That still eludes me.
I always think the original poster is entitled to a direct answer. As well as all the grandiose banter that this board has developed to a fine art.
Mister Z? I just looked at a few of your tune submissions ~
& while I might not be able to demonstrate the 'correct' way to get new tunes accepted into the tradition via this site you, my good man, are doing everything possible to ensure that it never happens. &BTW you might want to heed Ceolachan's advice.
Is a tune traditional on this site because of its oldness or the origin of its composer?
Is a tune traditional on this site because of its oldness or the origin of its composer?
Even contemporary? Many tunes I posted here received some surprising comments ... Ex,
http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/6948
(That tune is wrong in its writing and midi because I re-posted it later with the good version ... as a result, the good name has been given to the wrong tune, and the rest of the post has been deleted. The modification only appears in the comments. One more thing I don't understand, Ceolachan...)
If some shrewd people could enlight me about this... thanks.
# Posted on November 30th 2007 by shoe
Re: Is a tune traditional on this site because of its oldness or the origin of its composer?
A tune is "traditional" when it has been embraced and played by individuals (and groups) in the community concerned. The age and origin is not so relevant as the TIME the tune has survived in the repertoire of amateur musicians. If Flavour Of The Month was the indicator, then surely Galway Girl would be the all-time greatest "traditional" song.
# Posted on November 30th 2007 by oldstrings
Re: Is a tune traditional on this site because of its oldness or the origin of its composer?
Can "contemporary traditional" be a more profound oxymoron than "legal ethics"?
# Posted on November 30th 2007 by oldstrings
Re: Is a tune traditional on this site because of its oldness or the origin of its composer?
How about political accountability?
# Posted on November 30th 2007 by Backer
Welcome Page ~ thesession.org
"Some of the tunes are well known, and some are more obscure. It's this mixture of the familiar and the new that makes for a good session."
# Posted on November 30th 2007 by Random_notes
Re: Is a tune traditional on this site because of its oldness or the origin of its composer?
Why in the world would ITM be mentioned in the same breath or have any relevance to the concept of "political accountability"
The reason ITM is still being played is a testament to the Irish people's resistance to political suppression (aka 'political acountability') of their culture and their music.
And the World is better for it.
# Posted on November 30th 2007 by zippydw
Fine. That's what it seemed to me. I'm put at rest.
# Posted on November 30th 2007 by shoe
(reference to themuse's last post)
# Posted on November 30th 2007 by shoe
Re: Is a tune traditional on this site because of its oldness or the origin of its composer?
Usually a "traditional" tune is one that doesn't really have a known composer, meaning that it's probably been around a while. However, there are many newly composed tunes that are played as often as so-called traditional tunes, such as Paddy Fahey's, Ed Reavy's, and Martin Wynne's tunes. Although their composers are acknowledged (often in the title of the tune), most people have accepted them into the tradition. Mostly, it's based on how widely accepted and played the tune is, and the style in which it was written, rather than how old or by whom it was written.
# Posted on November 30th 2007 by FidDLe01
This is quite subjective...
# Posted on November 30th 2007 by shoe
Is a tune traditional because?
It has to be subjective.
Tunes have certain characteristics which are 'subjectively' considered part of the tradition.
On this site many people consider Irish traditional session music to be dance tunes. It does not mean everything you hear in session will be Irish or traditional or dance (or music?) Anything else, not "of" the tradition cannot be presented timidly. Tradition changes over time; not because someone has a new tune but because a new tune has something.
And that is, as they say ~ subjective.
# Posted on November 30th 2007 by Random_notes
Re: Is a tune traditional on this site because of its oldness or the origin of its composer?
"Traditional" usually refers to being passed down through the generations. "Anon" or "gan ainm" (Irish) means the composer is unknown. Sometimes "traditional" is used in place of "gan ainm," but I think they refer to separate categories. I think you can have a traditional tune where the composer is known. If you have one where the composer is unknown, then indicate it with "gan ainm." This makes the most sense to me, but since we’re talking about folk music the logic may vary.
# Posted on November 30th 2007 by Phantom Button
Re: Is a tune traditional on this site because of its oldness or the origin of its composer?
Er, no, TPB, 'gan ainm' means 'without name' and refers to the title of a tune, not the composer.
# Posted on December 1st 2007 by Floss the Tethers
Re: Is a tune traditional on this site because of its oldness or the origin of its composer?
Indeed MacCruiskeen.
Besides many Scottish tunes which have found their way into Irish music session repertoires...worldwide, Calliope House springs to mind as a tune which, although written by an Englishman dave Richardson, must one of the most session-played "Irish" tunes around.
I sniff a hidden agenda in this thread, a plea for acceptance of the tune written by mister z's....ermm..."friend"...but what would I know?
# Posted on December 1st 2007 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: Is a tune traditional on this site because of its oldness or the origin of its composer?
Yea, reading back over what I said now I can see the error. 'Gan ainm' means 'without name' even if the composer is known. Thanks for pointing that out.
# Posted on December 1st 2007 by Phantom Button
?
Yeah, Nolaig, my great friend!
# Posted on December 1st 2007 by shoe
...to think that she even doesn't knows... sob
# Posted on December 1st 2007 by shoe
Re: Is a tune traditional on this site because of its oldness or the origin of its composer?
"it's based on how widely accepted and played the tune is"
So we're in agreement, FidDLeo1?
"The age and origin is not so relevant as the TIME the tune has survived in the repertoire of amateur musicians."
Except that length is more important than width.
*simulate smirky face*
# Posted on December 1st 2007 by oldstrings
Re: Is a tune traditional on this site because of its oldness or the origin of its composer?
Phantom Button's one-liner covers the spirit of it.
" "Traditional" usually refers to being passed down through the generations"
It is not necessary for a tradition to be far-flung.
# Posted on December 1st 2007 by oldstrings
Re: Is a tune traditional on this site because of its oldness or the origin of its composer?
I think that "traditional" refers simply to what extent the tune is accepted into the tradition. Isn't that all that matters? There are some tunes that seem to fit the definition of a traditional tune; however, they are seldom played and therefore not being passed on the same way that a more newly composed tune may be. I think it's perfectly acceptable for a tune with a known composer to be labeled as traditional, provided that it is given the same treatment within the tradition as a tune without a composer.
# Posted on December 1st 2007 by FidDLe01
Re: Is a tune traditional on this site because of its oldness or the origin of its composer?
IMO, a tune is a tune is a tune no matter when or by whom it was written. If it fits the metre, structure and style of a genre, it belongs in the genre. "Traditional" is a category covering indigenous music with deep roots in any given culture. Living cultures with vibrant musical traditions continuously produce new tunes that gain acceptance by the merits of the melody itself, not the fogginess of its origin.
Very few well-known players avoid tunes simply because the origins are known. A quick perusal of the liner notes on most "pure drop" albums will reveal efforts are made to discover and share the origins of each melody, and the composer is very often known. In fact, knowing this important information is (again IMO) one of the marks of a player who cares deeply about the music and the people who wrote it and is deeply immersed in the culture.
Also, I don't know many great players who don't churn out new tunes when the spirit moves.
You often hear something like "this is an old one", meaning the origins have been lost to the mists of time, but for the most part somebody somewhere knows (or THINKS they know) where whatever tune I'm playing came from, even if I don't, which is most of the time since I'm a dabbler.
I don't subscribe to the attitude a tune has to be old to be traditional, as it implies to me the culture it has come from is dead. A quick trip to Ireland or Quebec is enough to dispel any such illusion.
# Posted on December 1st 2007 by Kerri Brown
Re: Is a tune traditional on this site because of its oldness or the origin of its composer?
If a tune has a tradition of being liked, and played by others...
# Posted on December 1st 2007 by drone
Re: Is a tune traditional on this site because of its oldness or the origin of its composer?
Also, whether a tune is traditional or not has to do with how traditional a player the composer is.
# Posted on December 1st 2007 by FidDLe01
Is a tune traditional because of its origin?
Where do these tunes come from anyway?
Take a look at Strayaway Child for example.
# Posted on December 1st 2007 by Random_notes
I suspected that kind of "parish-pump quarrel" while posting this thread. That means there's no absolute truth. And I'm pleased with that only truth...
# Posted on December 1st 2007 by shoe
lol
# Posted on December 1st 2007 by shoe
Re: Is a tune traditional on this site because of its oldness or the origin of its composer?
Heed the words of Kerri Brown. For the most concise advice on session ettiquette, read her bio.
# Posted on December 1st 2007 by oldstrings
Re: Is a tune traditional on this site because of its oldness or the origin of its composer?
I once read that traditional music could be defined in terms of "continuity, variation and selection." That is to say, the music is links the past and the present (often in the form that "that's because how it was done" is a valid argument); allows for variation and creates new material; and the community vets the variations and decides what forms the music shall continue in.
The validity of this argument is oft debated, but I think it's a pretty decent place to start.
# Posted on December 2nd 2007 by Andy V
Re: Is a tune traditional on this site because of its oldness or the origin of its composer?
' "that's because how it was done" is a valid argument...'
But not one you can accept,Andy V? Or not entirely ?
Because I thought your preciously stated position was that there is no 'correct form' ?
I'd say that "because that's how it was done" ,coming from the bearers of the tradition,is a definition of 'correct form'.
The important aspect is the source of the statement.The validity of the argument is diminished,or disappears altogether,if it comes without the authority of those who actually carry the tradition.
Of course,there will never be one precise fixed static view of 'correct',it will always be debated,refined and developed.But that's not the same thing as saying that there is no 'correct form' whatsoever and so 'anything goes'.
# Posted on December 2nd 2007 by wolfbird
Re: Is a tune traditional on this site because of its oldness or the origin of its composer?
Hopefully it's becase no MF will come and make you pay money to play it.
# Posted on December 2nd 2007 by dogmageek
Re: Is a tune traditional on this site because of its oldness or the origin of its composer?
Yes,dogmageek,it's a fascinating topic in so many ways...it touches on deeply political and ideological issues...does the music belong 'to the people' or is it 'individual property'?
There are countless examples where land,fishing,and other resources were held in common by an ethnic group.ITM might be seen in that way.And there are countless examples of where the resources that once belonged to everybody get expropriated,often by force or trickery,to become the private property of whoever has seized them.The dominant mainstream capitalist system sees everything as a resource to be exploited for profit,and any infringement of that 'right' as theft.
Even the rain that falls freely from the sky get's somehow magically converted into a bottled commodity that we have to pay for.
# Posted on December 2nd 2007 by wolfbird
Re: Is a tune traditional on this site because of its oldness or the origin of its composer?
No, the argument that the sole definition of what is traditional is based upon the argument that "that is how it was done in the past" is not one that I accept. Personally, I take form and function as more important: for example the previously mentioned 'Calliope House' (composed by Dave Richardson) is, harmonically and structurally traditional and fits into the tradition. 'Music for a Found Harmonium' is definitively not, its structure and its harmonic properties don't allow it to fit into the tradition as we know it. Nontheles, both these tunes have been in circulation for over 20 years which, for me at least, is past prior to my birth - or of the generation before me. So if that argument is the one that you use to define traditional, both those tunes should be traditional (at least to me).
For me, that ain't right. So, I have to alter my definition. That said, I still think that starting with 'continuity, variation and selection' lie at the level above - i.e. they are the macroscopic rules that govern all traditional musics, but for the music that is traditional for me I need a more microscopic set of rules.
The trouble with the phrase 'correct' is that it's so subjective. You play the Irish version of 'Mrs McLeod's Reel' to a Scotsman and he'll most probably tell you it should be in A, not G, and that you're playing the B part before the A. The only way you can define a correct in that situation is add qualifiers. If said Boarder Scotsman plays the same tune in his local style to a Shetlander, the Shetlander will most probably comment upon the greater number of changes of bow direction - neither are correct unless you expand on what you mean by correct. No matter how far down you take it, you invariably find yourself needing to define correct in the situation, only to find that another sub-level sits below it, until you finally reach the level of self-analysis.
Of course, it only matters if you either want or need to create definitions: but to me the most important part of my criteria are they they can become fluid when they no longer work for me.
Apologies for the long post, I just didn't feel I could properly explain myself with less words
# Posted on December 2nd 2007 by Andy V
Re: Is a tune traditional on this site because of its oldness or the origin of its composer?
Yes,Andy V, I agree that 'correct' is completely subjective - objectivity doesn't come into it - and I like your examples of Irish,Scottish,and Shetland 'bearers of the tradition' each having a different view as to 'correctness'.That's exactly what I meant above,by the ongoing debate.You could probably include even more divergent opinions on 'Mrs.Mcleod's' from Nova Scotia or it's transition into Oldtime and Bluegrass styles.
I realise that 'correct' is a can of worms,but that's not to the same as saying that there is no such thing as 'correct'.It's not an abstract term in this context.It's defined in relation to the body of music that the particular tradition maintains,and the only subjective opinion that has authority is the voice of someone within that tradition.
I see this as a bit comparable to spoken regional accents,or traditions of vernacular architecture.For example,within the tradition of using thatch as a roofing material there are sub-divisions,e.g.straw versus reed,and local preferences for a particular style.
What drew me into this was the previous thread re elitism.Who decides what is authentic,and what is 'correct form' ? is it the local craftsman who has a lifetime of experience doing it the way he was taught by his grandfather as a boy? Or is it someone from outside the area who has never thatched a roof ?
# Posted on December 2nd 2007 by wolfbird
Is a harmonium tune traditional?
I am going to bet Simon Jeffes never played Music for a Found Harmonium in a trad session.
Is it now played in Irish session because session players thought it might work or ~ because of who introduced the tune? For example; Kevin Burke, Sharon Shannon, Nollaig Casey . . .
# Posted on December 2nd 2007 by Random_notes
Re: Is a tune traditional on this site because of its oldness or the origin of its composer?
As for the example of Music for a Found Harmonium, I think that the may well have been played and popularized if those certain people hadn't recorded/performed it, but it wouldn't have gotten the same publicity. I still don't think that particular tune would be considered "traditional" by most, simply because it doesn't really fit the pattern for a trad tune. But it certainly makes a tune more legitimate for it to be played by a great or well-known player. It probably didn't hurt for that tune to be played at the end of Napoleon Dynamite either! Another similar tune that comes to mind would be something like the Hey Jude Hornpipe played by De Danann. Still not really a trad. tune, but not that uncommonly played, if only for laughs. I know they were the ones responsible for writing it as a hornpipe, but no one would probably ever play the tune if it hadn't been played by De Danann first.
# Posted on December 2nd 2007 by FidDLe01
Re: Is a tune traditional on this site because of its oldness or the origin of its composer?
Wolfbird; I don't know, that might depend on whether the thatcher's peers agree on whether or not he's done a good job! I'm sure you won't be surprised that I have to hold my hands up and confess a total ignorance of thatching, but I suspect you're really asking is:
'Are the opinions of academics worth anything?'
I'm afraid that's up to you to decide, I can't make that judgement for you. For me, given what I do and the style in which I have to write on topics, it has to be. If you feel that traditional music has, like the rivers and land of the country been appropriated by an elite, which includes anyone who studies traditional music academically, then I'm not going to attempt to denigrate your opinions or get involved further other than say that we must agree to differ.
By all accounts, the only reason I really get involved in these discussions is either to add something that I think might not otherwise be mentioned, to challenge some notion that perhaps people haven't thoroughly thought through, or to offer advice on technical matters.
To continue my analogy from above to the next stage: if you wander into a musical gathering in any community where traditional music is played, and ask every single musician to play some well known and old tune of your choice and record the result. They won't all play it the same way, they'll all have different perceptions of it, even if it's in the tiniest detail. The tempos might be slightly different, they might chose to finish it in a particular way, different instruments will use different ornaments, use slightly different techniques, some might chose to play some variations. How would you then chose who is right? They can't all be right, they're different. Hence, they must all be wrong.
That's why, to me, I can't define a 'correct,' because the closer you get to it, I always realise I'm sooner or later going to have to make a personal value judgement. Because if you asked those same people who has the right way of playing it, they'd probably point to the oldest man in the room. And he'd probably say "naw, I don't play it right. Now me old man/grandfather, he had a way of playing it that made ya stand up and dance. Twas a wonderful thing to hear."
I do seem to be contributing a lot of needless words to this thread...I think perhaps I'll call it a day here!
# Posted on December 2nd 2007 by Andy V
Re: Is a tune traditional on this site because of its oldness or the origin of its composer?
Thanks for taking the time Andy V.I'm really not trying to pick a fight over whether academics are of any value
They have to justify their existence,same as many other people.IMO,what they ought to be doing is to clarify problems that other people don't have the time and intellectual resources to be able to do.
I now know why we are seeing this differently.Your example of the players is illuminating.IMO,the way you arrive at your conclusion 'they can't all be right therefore must be wrong' is flawed logic,it's philosophically obsolete logic,and as an academic,you,or your teachers should know better.Precisely the same problem has been found in parallel disciplines,such as theology,the law,archaeology,anthropology,not to mention philosophy,where it has been found that it is impossible to arrive at a precise definition that can be agreed.The hermeneutic spiral.But it's not my place to lecture you here.I think what you've said is worthwhile,stimulating,not 'needless words' at all,so thanks for it.
# Posted on December 3rd 2007 by wolfbird
Is a tune traditional?
For us mere mortals we feel the tunes are played the right way by someone else.
The majority of us continue to pursue something elusive ~ we say to ourselves (if not aloud) "that's the way to play that tune!" We hear it, feel it, sense it. But it is a new pursuit at each session. It is traditional because we persist. Because we remember. Because we breath.
Apparently the best of us persist as well;
“As long as you know you've got something to learn, you'll continue to improve. The way I look at it, by the time I reckon I'll be good enough, I'll be too old.”
—Matt Molloy
# Posted on December 3rd 2007 by Random_notes
Re: Is a tune traditional on this site because of its oldness or the origin of its composer?
Actually, that was my point, if I search for a 'correct' I hit the paradox / flawed logic conundrum you state (and I think you might have thought was my point).
I guess you could sum my point up as "they can't all be right, so they must be wrong is a paradox because it requires a correct form to be an incorrect from. So right cannot exist in a universal pure state." Which in itself is bad logic but, because whenever I try do define correct this is the paradox I face, is the best definition I've so far come up with. I guess my point was sort of the same as yours, no entire group will ever agree the definition, and if a definition is rejected can it be really meaningful? Otherwise you do end up with an elite who create and uphold the definitions. And who'd want that?
For what it's worth, I was sort of playing devil's advocate here. Personally, I hear a lot of music that sounds "right" to me. In my honest opinion, the ONLY place to start is with your ears. But for me, I can hear gypsy jazz and hear a tradition (its my second love after trad as is discussed here), I hear blues, gospel, jazz, eastern European music and I can hear the tradition. I can hear tradition in the YouTube clip that started this whole thing off. To be sure, that fiddler needs to make technical adjustments if she wants to be accepted into any tradition I've ever come across, her technique is not right for any style I recognise. It's up to her though, if it makes her happy I'd hope to be the last person to tell her to stop.
But, at the same time, I'm currently listening to a bluegrass version of the Snoop Dogg song "Gin & Juice," (cos its making me smile whilst I'm writing a music analysis essay due tomorrow & I'm due in at 9) so what do I know?
At the very least, I should stick to my work schedule!
Andy
# Posted on December 3rd 2007 by Andy V
Trip to Fanore?
I thought this started with a composition by Nollaig Casey.
I have not seen a link to any 'Recordings' of her (or anyone else) playing said tune. Much less a YouTube clip. Excuse me while I dab the mustard off my face & do a search on YouTube.
# Posted on December 3rd 2007 by Random_notes
Re: Is a tune traditional on this site because of its oldness or the origin of its composer?
Nah, there was a YouTube related thread here:
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/15910
which then inspired:
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/15921
The exchange between Wolfbird and myself is one that sort of started in the elitism thread because I wanted to challenge the perception of how people would define a correct style as I felt the term was being bandied about too freely.
# Posted on December 3rd 2007 by Andy V
Re: Is a tune traditional on this site because of its oldness or the origin of its composer?
Andy V,this is a bit complicated to explain in a paragraph,but the situation you described so well above,where you have a group of players each with a different version,and the impossibility to decide which is correct,became apparent to philosophers in the 19thC when trying to decide how to choose between different translations of lines of biblical text from ancient manuscripts.Because it was absolutely impossible to prefer one over another using rational criteria,they were stuck in the paradox you mentioned above.To progress it was neccessary to rethink their logical approach,so there's about 150 years of arguments on the topic and mountains of books.It's too much for me to put into a nutshell,but that's my angle on the problem,FWIW
# Posted on December 3rd 2007 by wolfbird
Re: Is a tune traditional on this site because of its oldness or the origin of its composer?
Glad to see De Danann's version of Hey Jude get a mention- I love the third part where they reel it up. As fidDleo says, maybe not trad as such, but fun.
# Posted on December 3rd 2007 by P-K
Re: Is a tune traditional on this site because of its oldness or the origin of its composer?
Great discussion folks, followed with enjoyment and respect, but i have to disagree with Pk! Hey jude!? fun?!!! thats what the FF button is for! I could'nt bear it! awfull alltogether. Id rather go to the dentist than listen to that.
# Posted on December 3rd 2007 by jig
Re: Is a tune traditional on this site because of its oldness or the origin of its composer?
Well, jig, I didn't like the McCartney version, so I suppose this version came as a pleasant surprise! To set it in context, on my CD it comes immediately before the song 'My Irish Molly- O'- now that would send anyone clamouring to see the dentist
# Posted on December 3rd 2007 by P-K
Trip to Fanore?
Thanks Andy V.
Why jump someone's thread once 2 have already been "inspired"?
# Posted on December 3rd 2007 by Random_notes
Re: Is a tune traditional on this site because of its oldness or the origin of its composer?
I'm not talking now about music,or ITM in particular,but rather the intellectual problem of how to decide which of a set of interpretations is 'correct' (or most accurate or best or whatever.) and who is entitled to make a judgement that is backed by authority.
It's the kind of problem that'll make anyones brain ache, because,as Andy V illustrated so well above,if you've got ten different versions by ten different players,all of whom are respected,how can anybody say which is 'correct',except from a totally subjective position,which is really no better than saying 'I prefer blue socks to green socks,and I don't know why'.
My point is,that this paradox has already turned up in many other fields.The simple logic that poses a 'right' versus 'wrong' choice cannot deal with the paradox.The philosophers,who are the folks who enjoy working on such conundrums,came up with hermeneutics,as the answer,see for example
http://traumwerk.stanford.edu:3455/Archaeopaedia/56
I have to admit it's a somewhat rarified subject that probably doesn't appeal to many,but there you go
Regarding ITM,I believe that valid authority rests with the bearers of the tradition themselves,IMHO. Academics and others are entitled to observe and form their opinions,of course,but they cannot claim primary authority.However,if we were talking about an extinct tradition,(say the music of prehistoric Sumeria or some such),then the academics would be the only authority and the best palce to turn to seek informed opinions.
# Posted on December 3rd 2007 by wolfbird
Re: Is a tune traditional on this site because of its oldness or the origin of its composer?
Heeeey, I didn't jump it, I initially offered a reply to the opening question and then was called upon to explain two potentially conflicting statements. Besides, considering some of the appalling hi-jacks in the past by MG, Dow and the old hands, this is small fry! It sort of relates to the question anyway.
Wolfbird; I'm afraid my understanding in the application of hermeneutics isn't full enough to offer any robust response involving them this debate, sorry. However, I think if you re-read from the very start of this subject you'll realise that you've drifted a bit and tried to shuffle my argument into an indefensible position (i.e. your last statement was never mentioned anywhere by me). As any further discussion on my part would leave me accused / or dangerously close to the implication that I think trad music should only be for the elite, I'm done.
# Posted on December 4th 2007 by Andy V
Let's hear the playback
I am not sure who the hijacker was . . .
Andy if you are going to do something then do it.
Dow never does anything ~ sort of.
I dig through the archives & now that I have the context . . .
Welshman . . . frisbee . . . New Jersey? I can better understand what you are saying.
Frankly I am still trying to comprehend Mister Z's intent.
If the tune he refers to has merit I would, at the very least, like to hear the recording. (Anybody?) That still eludes me.
I always think the original poster is entitled to a direct answer. As well as all the grandiose banter that this board has developed to a fine art.
# Posted on December 4th 2007 by Random_notes
A tune on this site?
Mister Z? I just looked at a few of your tune submissions ~
& while I might not be able to demonstrate the 'correct' way to get new tunes accepted into the tradition via this site you, my good man, are doing everything possible to ensure that it never happens. &BTW you might want to heed Ceolachan's advice.
# Posted on December 4th 2007 by Random_notes