Hello everyone!
Greetings from the Heart of Dixie. I was perusing sites tonight and came across this exceptional forum; nice job.
Some quick background, as I'm new to everyone: I've played Bluegrass and Celtic music for the better part of 30 years(Banjo, Mandolin, Guitar, Flute/Whistle, Button Box, Pipes etc.) I don't consider myself outstanding on any of these, but I'm past the stage of scaring old ladies and making babies cry. Just average. Like to play for fun, mostly.
Anyway, about 2 weeks ago I decided I didn't have enough grief in my life and purchased a cheap Chinese violin(fiddle). It was $99.00. I tuned it G-C-E-A so as to play in the Key of C using G fingering as played on a guitar.(Strange, but works quite well).
Here's the chestnut: I'm able to play about 10 or so tunes with little problem EXCEPT the fact that I am unable physically to get my left hand comfortably around the neck to play the notes. I had to sand off the pointy thing at the bottom of the scroll to make room for my hand to fit and I still have a devil of a time reaching the G string with anything approaching comfort. I've tried almost every position possible(kind of a "Fiddler's Kama Sutra"), yet, the beast keeps defying me.
So, how is it that I'm able to play a Martin Guitar neck with no discomfort yet am unable to find a reasonably comfortable position with this little monster?
ANY insight would be immensley appreciated.
Thank You.
D. Joe
"So, how is it that I'm able to play a Martin Guitar neck with no discomfort yet am unable to find a reasonably comfortable position with this little monster?"
Hey Detritus Joe, nice to meet ya!
It's because you have to twist the wrist around for the fiddle. It's really awkward at first.
To reach the G string you have to reach over even more. It's not a natural thing to do at first, but it does get better after a while. Try swinging your elbow to the right when going for the G string.
It really helps to have a violin or fiddle teacher when first learning the fiddle, because the right way to hold and use it isn't very natural or intuitive. It's almost impossible for someone to describe the right way to you, you really need a teacher there to show you.
If you have to sand off part of the scroll to get a comfortable hold, something is really wrong with your hold. It's really important to get this right at the beginning to avoid serious problems that can haunt you for a long time. If you can take a few beginning lessons from a fiddle or violin teacher, that would be a good idea. It's really hard to figure this out on your own.
'So, how is it that I'm able to play a Martin Guitar neck with no discomfort yet am unable to find a reasonably comfortable position with this little monster?'
The difference is the twist your arm has to make: upper arm in front of your breast, elbow pointed to the right. Do stretching exercises and realize it can take a long time for this to settle.
"I tuned it G-C-E-A so as to play in the Key of C using G fingering as played on a guitar.(Strange, but works quite well)." - The key of "C" may be fine for solo playing, if you intend joining other trad musicians in sessions (which I couldn't recommend too strongly!) you'll find that they play mostly in the keys "D", "G" and "A" only occasionally drifting into "C" or "F". For this reason I'd advise having a try with the more standard G-D-A-E tuning. In any case you're very welcome on board and I hope you get lots of enjoyment out of it as we do.
you must be holding your fiddle incorrectly.I would advise getting a fiddle teacher,I would also advise you not to shave off anything further from your fiddle,sounds like your fiddle has had a close shave.LOL.
mhuppert,isnt tradpiper now jig.
Hey D. Joe,
Welcome to the session.
I know what you mean about the reach on the fiddle. It feels wrong when you start learning. The thing is, it gets easier with time. Just try to keep your wrist straight and keep your elbow in.
As dickens said above though, get a teacher.
Even a couple of lessons early on will steer you down the correct path instead of learning the wrong way!!
Best of luck, and mines a Guinness when your going to the bar
The fiddle is very demanding in physical terms, much mode demanding than a guitar (I play both instrument as well). The more relaxed you are when playing, the easier it gets to get tp the right notes. contrarily to what most people think, you don't necessarily have to twist the wrist to play the fiddle or the classical violin, nor you have to lock your elbow and put your arm under the neck. There many outstanding players who don't twist their wrist; Martin Hayes and Yehudi Menuhin to mention two. If you look at Martin Hayes on youtube, you'll notice his right wrist is not twisted at all; the same goes for many traditional musicians.
At any rate, twisting or not twisting the wrist is not the point. The point is finding a bodily position that enables you to play all notes in the most comfortable way. A good violin teacher can surely help you; a good Alexander technique teacher can probably help you even more. In alternative, you could consider Kato Havas's technique. Just google these names, there might be a teacher in your area.
Cheers,
Davide
Mutilating even a chinese fiddle is a bit beyond the pale !
Definitely get a teacher, even if only to sort out your hold.
Funnily enough, I have a fiddle, but never got on with the bowing technique, but having played guitar and mandolin I had no trouble with the fingering.
My first teacher told me to leave a thumb's width between your and and the scroll and hold an imaginary egg in your palm. Your palm should not be touching the back of the neck, your wrist should be as straight as possible and the neck should be supported between the pad of your thumb and the bony bit of the base of your index finger.
If you get this right, your fingers should pretty much fall into place on their own in a normal tuning.
Speaking of which, I strongly recommend starting with a standard fiddle tuning (GDAE), as the finger positions you will have to use with your guitar-friendly variation will be awkward, uncomfortable and counter-intuitive.
The reason this tuning is the bomb is that for most of the keys you will need to play in you won't have to stretch your fourth finger, use your pinkee or play half tones with your index finger. These fingering complications are not impossible later on down the road, but will greatly enhance your suffering at the start.
The other thing is, fiddles (even cheap chinese ones) are very sensitive to the tension of the strings, so it's not wise to deviate more than a full tone on any one string, and then most players seem to only do this on the D and G (ie. for many Quebecois or Metis tunes).
Welcome to the session and good luck with the fiddle.
New Member Fiddle Dilemna:-(
New Member Fiddle Dilemna
Hello everyone!
Greetings from the Heart of Dixie. I was perusing sites tonight and came across this exceptional forum; nice job.
Some quick background, as I'm new to everyone: I've played Bluegrass and Celtic music for the better part of 30 years(Banjo, Mandolin, Guitar, Flute/Whistle, Button Box, Pipes etc.) I don't consider myself outstanding on any of these, but I'm past the stage of scaring old ladies and making babies cry. Just average. Like to play for fun, mostly.
Anyway, about 2 weeks ago I decided I didn't have enough grief in my life and purchased a cheap Chinese violin(fiddle). It was $99.00. I tuned it G-C-E-A so as to play in the Key of C using G fingering as played on a guitar.(Strange, but works quite well).
Here's the chestnut: I'm able to play about 10 or so tunes with little problem EXCEPT the fact that I am unable physically to get my left hand comfortably around the neck to play the notes. I had to sand off the pointy thing at the bottom of the scroll to make room for my hand to fit and I still have a devil of a time reaching the G string with anything approaching comfort. I've tried almost every position possible(kind of a "Fiddler's Kama Sutra"), yet, the beast keeps defying me.
So, how is it that I'm able to play a Martin Guitar neck with no discomfort yet am unable to find a reasonably comfortable position with this little monster?
ANY insight would be immensley appreciated.
Thank You.
D. Joe
# Posted on November 29th 2007 by Detritus Joe
Re: New Member Fiddle Dilemna
"So, how is it that I'm able to play a Martin Guitar neck with no discomfort yet am unable to find a reasonably comfortable position with this little monster?"
Hey Detritus Joe, nice to meet ya!
It's because you have to twist the wrist around for the fiddle. It's really awkward at first.
To reach the G string you have to reach over even more. It's not a natural thing to do at first, but it does get better after a while. Try swinging your elbow to the right when going for the G string.
It really helps to have a violin or fiddle teacher when first learning the fiddle, because the right way to hold and use it isn't very natural or intuitive. It's almost impossible for someone to describe the right way to you, you really need a teacher there to show you.
If you have to sand off part of the scroll to get a comfortable hold, something is really wrong with your hold. It's really important to get this right at the beginning to avoid serious problems that can haunt you for a long time. If you can take a few beginning lessons from a fiddle or violin teacher, that would be a good idea. It's really hard to figure this out on your own.
Good luck, and welcome!
# Posted on November 29th 2007 by Screetch
Re: New Member Fiddle Dilemna
Your name is isn't "tradpiper" is it? (don't worry - inside joke)
# Posted on November 29th 2007 by Hup
Re: New Member Fiddle Dilemna
'So, how is it that I'm able to play a Martin Guitar neck with no discomfort yet am unable to find a reasonably comfortable position with this little monster?'
The difference is the twist your arm has to make: upper arm in front of your breast, elbow pointed to the right. Do stretching exercises and realize it can take a long time for this to settle.
Good luck!
# Posted on November 29th 2007 by Henk Bos
Re: New Member Fiddle Dilemna
"I tuned it G-C-E-A so as to play in the Key of C using G fingering as played on a guitar.(Strange, but works quite well)." - The key of "C" may be fine for solo playing, if you intend joining other trad musicians in sessions (which I couldn't recommend too strongly!) you'll find that they play mostly in the keys "D", "G" and "A" only occasionally drifting into "C" or "F". For this reason I'd advise having a try with the more standard G-D-A-E tuning. In any case you're very welcome on board and I hope you get lots of enjoyment out of it as we do.
# Posted on November 29th 2007 by Bannerman
Re: New Member Fiddle Dilemna
Hello,
Sorry to interfere in this discussion, but could you tell me how to post a new thread (topic) ? i didn't find :(
ty,
Val'
a french fiddler
# Posted on November 29th 2007 by Valenten
Re: New Member Fiddle Dilemna
Click on "submit a discussion" and follow the steps outlined - there shouldn't be any problems.
# Posted on November 29th 2007 by Bannerman
Re: New Member Fiddle Dilemna
you must be holding your fiddle incorrectly.I would advise getting a fiddle teacher,I would also advise you not to shave off anything further from your fiddle,sounds like your fiddle has had a close shave.LOL.
mhuppert,isnt tradpiper now jig.
# Posted on November 29th 2007 by dickens metrognome
Re: New Member Fiddle Dilemna
Hey D. Joe,
Welcome to the session.
I know what you mean about the reach on the fiddle. It feels wrong when you start learning. The thing is, it gets easier with time. Just try to keep your wrist straight and keep your elbow in.
As dickens said above though, get a teacher.
Even a couple of lessons early on will steer you down the correct path instead of learning the wrong way!!
Best of luck, and mines a Guinness when your going to the bar
# Posted on November 29th 2007 by session savage
Re: New Member Fiddle Dilemna
The fiddle is very demanding in physical terms, much mode demanding than a guitar (I play both instrument as well). The more relaxed you are when playing, the easier it gets to get tp the right notes. contrarily to what most people think, you don't necessarily have to twist the wrist to play the fiddle or the classical violin, nor you have to lock your elbow and put your arm under the neck. There many outstanding players who don't twist their wrist; Martin Hayes and Yehudi Menuhin to mention two. If you look at Martin Hayes on youtube, you'll notice his right wrist is not twisted at all; the same goes for many traditional musicians.
At any rate, twisting or not twisting the wrist is not the point. The point is finding a bodily position that enables you to play all notes in the most comfortable way. A good violin teacher can surely help you; a good Alexander technique teacher can probably help you even more. In alternative, you could consider Kato Havas's technique. Just google these names, there might be a teacher in your area.
Cheers,
Davide
# Posted on November 29th 2007 by nutsmuggler
Re: New Member Fiddle Dilemna
Mutilating even a chinese fiddle is a bit beyond the pale !
Definitely get a teacher, even if only to sort out your hold.
Funnily enough, I have a fiddle, but never got on with the bowing technique, but having played guitar and mandolin I had no trouble with the fingering.
# Posted on November 29th 2007 by Guernsey Pete
Re: New Member Fiddle Dilemna
Well now dickens, one wonders. The evil tradpiper may take on many forms ...
# Posted on November 30th 2007 by Hup
Re: New Member Fiddle Dilemna
My first teacher told me to leave a thumb's width between your and and the scroll and hold an imaginary egg in your palm. Your palm should not be touching the back of the neck, your wrist should be as straight as possible and the neck should be supported between the pad of your thumb and the bony bit of the base of your index finger.
If you get this right, your fingers should pretty much fall into place on their own in a normal tuning.
Speaking of which, I strongly recommend starting with a standard fiddle tuning (GDAE), as the finger positions you will have to use with your guitar-friendly variation will be awkward, uncomfortable and counter-intuitive.
The reason this tuning is the bomb is that for most of the keys you will need to play in you won't have to stretch your fourth finger, use your pinkee or play half tones with your index finger. These fingering complications are not impossible later on down the road, but will greatly enhance your suffering at the start.
The other thing is, fiddles (even cheap chinese ones) are very sensitive to the tension of the strings, so it's not wise to deviate more than a full tone on any one string, and then most players seem to only do this on the D and G (ie. for many Quebecois or Metis tunes).
Welcome to the session and good luck with the fiddle.
# Posted on November 30th 2007 by Kerri Brown
Re: New Member Fiddle Dilemna
"Your and" should be "your hand". Sorry - been living in Cornwall!
# Posted on November 30th 2007 by Kerri Brown