I've been asked to give fiddle lessons to a beginner violinist. I'm excited at the prospect, as I am a music education major, string emphasis, and have been playing irish-style fiddle for over 5 years now. Time to try out the teaching skills!
I was just wondering who out there gives/takes lessons and what the normal monthly/hourly cost for those is?
Also, does anyone have suggestions for tunes for someone who has only played the violin for a little while? It's hard when you've been playing for so long to remember what's the easiest to start out with.
Thanks for all your help, I really respect the depth of knowlege and neighborly advice here at the session.
Round Denver the going rate is $20 - $40 an hour, depending on the skillset and rep of the teacher. For special private lessons under master players, it's not unheard of to go up to $45 to $60.
Dawning of the Day, Rakes of Mallow, Road to Lisdoonvarna, Connaughtman's Rambles, and Butterfly are all tunes I got started out with...dunno if that helps you any.
I'm a flute player but here are some of the first tunes I was taught in my private lessons:
jigs (mostly) : Cook in the Kitchen, Seamus Cooley's, Jimmy Wards, Out on the Ocean, Christy Barry's #1, Merrily Kissed the Quakers Wife, Blarney Pilgrim, & Kid on the Mtn
reels: Sally Gardens, Star of Munster, Dunmore Lasses, Man of the House
Currently I'm without regular Irish flute lessons : (
I would be willing to pay any price in order to have private lessons with a couple particular master flute players down in the Boston area. My point? Well if someone really wants lessons and is serious about learning, then they will probably pay whatever price.
Aside from beginner level tunes, how are you planning on teaching your student? By ear? The dots? Some mixture of both? Are you planning on teaching music theory while you're at it?
I'm asking this because I have recently started giving beginner lessons myself and am interested in comparing notes ...
Well, I think since I learned by the dots, I'll be teaching that way. For me, it was easier to pick up the whistle by ear, but I've was trained to read music with the violin, although I do learn by ear often. I think I'll do things like scales classically to train the fingers, but give them tunes as their repertoire.
As far as theory goes, yes, meter, note values, and keys will be included, but not much beyond that. My student is rather young.
Has anyone here learnt the fiddle by ear who can defend that method? and I mean people who didn't play guitar/mandolin/other to begin with.
Hey cat--since you are into comparing notes, and I have a new student as well (I hardly feel worthy, but my teacher is too filled up and suggested I teach this student.) I'll share with you how I am doing it.
Strictly by ear, phrase by phrase using written stuff not at all except I did write down the chords for one tune which seems to be the most complicated one she's learned so far. I am not against the dots as a back up, though, but I wouldn't teach using them. (but then I didn't learn from the dots, either.)
I think she's learning a little theory as we go along--such as-- since this tune is in the key of D, you'll notice the most often used chords will be D, G, and A. Simple stuff like that
Oh, and the instrument is harp--hence all the talk about chords.
EireLibra--I am also learning fiddle by ear, and don't think I would have stuck with it if it had been from the dots. I think maybe a combination of "phrase by phrase" with the dots might work better? (IMHO, skip the dots altogether except as a back up)I At least for traditional Irish music I beleive it would. Just my opinion, I don't want to discourage you if you feel strongly about using the dots....After all, I see you are a music education major--that's got me beat by a longshot--I was a painting major.
I've been trying to teach my lot half-and-half - a little by ear, a little by dots. It's been interesting, because each of my students has different strengths. Some catch on to rhythm, or sight-reading, or learning by ear a lot faster than the others. If for nothing else, being able to accommodate different learning styles seems a good reason to keep teaching this way.
I learned to play instruments by reading the dots and started picking tunes by ear later. I am frankly curious as to how learning everything by ear first compares - I think I would have found it difficult just remembering where my fingers went. Anyway, gotta go, it's late, have a good day everybody.
When you learn by ear, you don't remember where your fingers go, you remember what sound they make when they are at each place.
When you play with dots, you learn that a splodge on the second line up from the bottom is called a "G" which corresponds to your third finger on the second string which makes the noise you now know is reffered to as a "G".
Now I know that if you read well, your brain automatically cuts out these in between processes, but learning by ear is, by deffinition, simpler.
Music is an aural thing. I know your eyes can be used in various ways to "help" you play, but you really shouldn't need them. Especially for music as simple as this diddly stuff
Out here in Montana I charge $8/hour for group lessons in Tinwhistle with about 8 to 5 people. I'd probably charge twice that much if it was one on one.
I'm also a harp teacher, and new around here. Glad to see there's another harpist here! (I'm assuming you mean the thing with strings, not a harmonica...correct me if I'm wrong, but you did mention chords.) Generally what I do for beginners is a lot of technique work with simple repertoire for the first year or so (sometimes less or more, it depends) and then the student is usually ready for dance tunes. I start with jigs and hornpipes, after they've done a bunch of those, then we do reels. I try to focus on different things separately, like 10 minutes for ear training, 10 minutes for drilling notation with flashcards or sightreading, etc. I do try to have everyone become fluent with both notation and ear learning because I think the ultimate goal is for them to not need a teacher anymore! I also work on traditional style from the very beginning with some specific drills I made up. I feel doing it from the beginning is very important, since otherwise they will have unlearning to do! I hope someone finds this useful, or at least entertaining....
I know an awful lot of musicians, often excellent, who can either play by ear or by eye but not both. They always seemed to me to be missing out on half a world of music. Interestingly enough, the kings of the sight-reading world: Beethoven, Mozart, Bach etc. were also known for throwing away their sheet-music and just making something up. At speed. Sometimes with counterpoint and really fiddly bits for flavour.
Sure, I'm teaching my students diddly music right now. Do I want to limit them so that they can *only* play diddly music? Maybe later in their lives they will want to branch out into classical music, or learn some music that they found in a book without asking me to play it for them, or write their own compositions down. For all of the above pursuits, the ability to tell a crotchet from a quaver is useful. Hence my teaching practices.
Sorry for getting on a high horse. Thanks for giving me your opinion, Michael.
Cat, I agree. Dots can be very useful, vital even, in some forms of music. And even if there is only a very tiny chance of some diddler wanting to branch out in later years, then it would help to learn the dots right from the start. It just doesn't help in diddling. (and before I get a tirade, it does't hinder either)
Hey cat,
Re your question about what it's like to learn only from the dots: I have found that tunes that I have taught myself from the dots, without having heard the melody lots of times, or at all to begin with, are tunes that I forget much more easily and also they sound more stilted. If I have the melody in my head already, learning the tune is soooo much easier and I remember it better. I love what Michael said about "remembering the sound the fiddle makes when your fingers are at a particular place on the fiddle." That seems to describe it quite well. I think you have to internalize the tune first before you can really learn it.
Ostrichfeathers, nice to meet you! Just for comparing notes--when I started learning harp, we had maybe 2 lessons just on technique, then went to a simple song (Star of the Couty Down) then right onto the dance tunes! (Of course, still working on technique at the same time) I think after about 4 or 5 jigs and hornpipes we went onto reels. I don't think they are any more difficult than jigs and hornpipes, personally. I had no prior music experience except for about 2 years piano as a child and 2 years playing violin/viola very poorly in elementary school. I had learned to sight read--at least to know what note the dot on the staff was supposed to be. That definitely helps when I want to get past a hard spot in a tune or attempt to learn one using listening from a CD and looking at the notes combo.
Anyway, welcome to the session--it is nice to have another harpist (harper) here. Do you prefer harpist or harper, by the way? Seems in the US, people who play only Irish music prefer harper and in Ireland they say harpist no matter what kind of music you play. Personally I prefer harper, but often say harpist when talking to people unfamiliar with Irish music, it's just easier. To me it's kinda like fiddler vs. violinist.
As far as lessons go--no written stuff used at all. So the only way I know how to teach is to follow my teacher's example, since it worked (still works) for me.
I say harpist myself because I do both Irish and pedal harp (i'm in college for pedal harp now.) It just seems to roll off the tongue nicely for me, anyway...
I think there are probably lots of ways to approach teaching dance tunes. What I've found people find more difficult about reels are that their rhythm and accenting are more complex and technically difficult especially at dance tempo. They do tend to go faster than hornpipes, in particular--at least they should! (Pet peeve: hornpipes played unintentionally so as to be indistinguishable from reels. If anyone was at the All-Ireland Senior fiddle in 2001, they know what I'm talking about.)
One thing that dictates how I teach is that I really want people to play easy enough things that they can play them exactly as they should be played stylistically from the very beginning, with lots of musicality, never "just notes." So, I wait on the dance tunes until I know they can integrate style and ornamentation all at once and that bringing up the tempo will be easy. I started doing this after experience teaching just the melodies to dance tunes and not worrying about style, accenting or ornamentation, and finding that to go back and fix these things later didn't work.
The reason I do sheet music is that a lot of my students, especially kids, do school orchestra and pedal harp as well. I also have found that students' ear skills may be well behind their technical ability, which if it is the case, they will be working on as another aspect of their lessons, and so giving them something written to refer to in case they forget a fingering or a short passage means they can learn the arrangement (on harp you have a whole other thing to worry about!) in one week. If they're not getting a left hand the same week they learn the tune, all they get is a slow recording to figure it out from, and are expected to do it...but I have not yet found a tape recorder that clearly picks up the bass on the harp so that a student could really learn it from there. If anyone has, please let me know!! Surpisingly, though, the kids and teenagers that I teach genreally don't want to "cheat" and really do only look at sheet music I give them as a last resort...and before long they don't even want it anymore! The adults are another story, particularly when teaching accompaniment, which is totally improv...but that's another thing altogether. I'll probably post a separate question about that.
I really don't get to compare notes on teaching Irish very often, so this is cool! By the way, are you going to Harpcon this summer?
You're right Michael, tunes learned only from the dots tend to be a bit stilted. It really helps hearing someone play it, especially something with a strong rhythm like a hornpipe or reel. And I often find that once I have the tune in my head I spend time re-learning it by ear, which is weird.
There's been some very interesting stuff coming up in this thread. I'm glad that I started reading it. Thanks guys.
In the Boston and Cape Cod area, private lessons run anywhere from $30.00 - $55.00 per hour. The beginner tunes I learned were: Rattlin Bog, Up She Goes, Mairi's Wedding, and Connaughtsman's Rambles. Good luck!
Private Lessons
Private Lessons
I've been asked to give fiddle lessons to a beginner violinist. I'm excited at the prospect, as I am a music education major, string emphasis, and have been playing irish-style fiddle for over 5 years now. Time to try out the teaching skills!
I was just wondering who out there gives/takes lessons and what the normal monthly/hourly cost for those is?
Also, does anyone have suggestions for tunes for someone who has only played the violin for a little while? It's hard when you've been playing for so long to remember what's the easiest to start out with.
Thanks for all your help, I really respect the depth of knowlege and neighborly advice here at the session.
# Posted on April 20th 2003 by EireLibra
Re: Private Lessons
Round Denver the going rate is $20 - $40 an hour, depending on the skillset and rep of the teacher. For special private lessons under master players, it's not unheard of to go up to $45 to $60.
Dawning of the Day, Rakes of Mallow, Road to Lisdoonvarna, Connaughtman's Rambles, and Butterfly are all tunes I got started out with...dunno if that helps you any.
Zina
# Posted on April 20th 2003 by Zina Lee
Re: Private Lessons
In Vermont the rates go from $20 to $30 per hour.
I'm a flute player but here are some of the first tunes I was taught in my private lessons:
jigs (mostly) : Cook in the Kitchen, Seamus Cooley's, Jimmy Wards, Out on the Ocean, Christy Barry's #1, Merrily Kissed the Quakers Wife, Blarney Pilgrim, & Kid on the Mtn
reels: Sally Gardens, Star of Munster, Dunmore Lasses, Man of the House
Joyce
# Posted on April 20th 2003 by JMH
Re: Private Lessons
Currently I'm without regular Irish flute lessons : (
I would be willing to pay any price in order to have private lessons with a couple particular master flute players down in the Boston area. My point? Well if someone really wants lessons and is serious about learning, then they will probably pay whatever price.
Joyce
# Posted on April 21st 2003 by JMH
Re: Private Lessons
college level (as in the teacher is in college) private lessons are normally $10/30minutes, I was told...
# Posted on April 21st 2003 by loscann7
Re: Private Lessons
Aside from beginner level tunes, how are you planning on teaching your student? By ear? The dots? Some mixture of both? Are you planning on teaching music theory while you're at it?
I'm asking this because I have recently started giving beginner lessons myself and am interested in comparing notes ...
# Posted on April 22nd 2003 by cat
Re: Private Lessons
Well, I think since I learned by the dots, I'll be teaching that way. For me, it was easier to pick up the whistle by ear, but I've was trained to read music with the violin, although I do learn by ear often. I think I'll do things like scales classically to train the fingers, but give them tunes as their repertoire.
As far as theory goes, yes, meter, note values, and keys will be included, but not much beyond that. My student is rather young.
Has anyone here learnt the fiddle by ear who can defend that method? and I mean people who didn't play guitar/mandolin/other to begin with.
# Posted on April 22nd 2003 by EireLibra
Re: Private Lessons
what sort of music does your young student want to play?
# Posted on April 22nd 2003 by biggus dave
Re: Private Lessons
Hey cat--since you are into comparing notes, and I have a new student as well (I hardly feel worthy, but my teacher is too filled up and suggested I teach this student.) I'll share with you how I am doing it.
Strictly by ear, phrase by phrase using written stuff not at all except I did write down the chords for one tune which seems to be the most complicated one she's learned so far. I am not against the dots as a back up, though, but I wouldn't teach using them. (but then I didn't learn from the dots, either.)
I think she's learning a little theory as we go along--such as-- since this tune is in the key of D, you'll notice the most often used chords will be D, G, and A. Simple stuff like that
Oh, and the instrument is harp--hence all the talk about chords.
EireLibra--I am also learning fiddle by ear, and don't think I would have stuck with it if it had been from the dots. I think maybe a combination of "phrase by phrase" with the dots might work better? (IMHO, skip the dots altogether except as a back up)I At least for traditional Irish music I beleive it would. Just my opinion, I don't want to discourage you if you feel strongly about using the dots....After all, I see you are a music education major--that's got me beat by a longshot--I was a painting major.
# Posted on April 22nd 2003 by Andee
Re: Private Lessons
Hi Andee,
Thanks for your thoughts.
I've been trying to teach my lot half-and-half - a little by ear, a little by dots. It's been interesting, because each of my students has different strengths. Some catch on to rhythm, or sight-reading, or learning by ear a lot faster than the others. If for nothing else, being able to accommodate different learning styles seems a good reason to keep teaching this way.
I learned to play instruments by reading the dots and started picking tunes by ear later. I am frankly curious as to how learning everything by ear first compares - I think I would have found it difficult just remembering where my fingers went. Anyway, gotta go, it's late, have a good day everybody.
Cat
# Posted on April 23rd 2003 by cat
Re: Private Lessons
When you learn by ear, you don't remember where your fingers go, you remember what sound they make when they are at each place.
When you play with dots, you learn that a splodge on the second line up from the bottom is called a "G" which corresponds to your third finger on the second string which makes the noise you now know is reffered to as a "G".
Now I know that if you read well, your brain automatically cuts out these in between processes, but learning by ear is, by deffinition, simpler.
Music is an aural thing. I know your eyes can be used in various ways to "help" you play, but you really shouldn't need them. Especially for music as simple as this diddly stuff
# Posted on April 23rd 2003 by llig leahcim
Re: Private Lessons
Out here in Montana I charge $8/hour for group lessons in Tinwhistle with about 8 to 5 people. I'd probably charge twice that much if it was one on one.
# Posted on April 24th 2003 by fadah
Re: Private Lessons
Hi Andee, adn everyone!...
I'm also a harp teacher, and new around here. Glad to see there's another harpist here! (I'm assuming you mean the thing with strings, not a harmonica...correct me if I'm wrong, but you did mention chords.) Generally what I do for beginners is a lot of technique work with simple repertoire for the first year or so (sometimes less or more, it depends) and then the student is usually ready for dance tunes. I start with jigs and hornpipes, after they've done a bunch of those, then we do reels. I try to focus on different things separately, like 10 minutes for ear training, 10 minutes for drilling notation with flashcards or sightreading, etc. I do try to have everyone become fluent with both notation and ear learning because I think the ultimate goal is for them to not need a teacher anymore! I also work on traditional style from the very beginning with some specific drills I made up. I feel doing it from the beginning is very important, since otherwise they will have unlearning to do! I hope someone finds this useful, or at least entertaining....
# Posted on April 24th 2003 by ostrichfeathers
Music is an aural thing ...
I know an awful lot of musicians, often excellent, who can either play by ear or by eye but not both. They always seemed to me to be missing out on half a world of music. Interestingly enough, the kings of the sight-reading world: Beethoven, Mozart, Bach etc. were also known for throwing away their sheet-music and just making something up. At speed. Sometimes with counterpoint and really fiddly bits for flavour.
Sure, I'm teaching my students diddly music right now. Do I want to limit them so that they can *only* play diddly music? Maybe later in their lives they will want to branch out into classical music, or learn some music that they found in a book without asking me to play it for them, or write their own compositions down. For all of the above pursuits, the ability to tell a crotchet from a quaver is useful. Hence my teaching practices.
Sorry for getting on a high horse. Thanks for giving me your opinion, Michael.
Cat
# Posted on April 24th 2003 by cat
Re: Private Lessons
Cat, I agree. Dots can be very useful, vital even, in some forms of music. And even if there is only a very tiny chance of some diddler wanting to branch out in later years, then it would help to learn the dots right from the start. It just doesn't help in diddling. (and before I get a tirade, it does't hinder either)
# Posted on April 24th 2003 by llig leahcim
Re: Private Lessons
Hey cat,
Re your question about what it's like to learn only from the dots: I have found that tunes that I have taught myself from the dots, without having heard the melody lots of times, or at all to begin with, are tunes that I forget much more easily and also they sound more stilted. If I have the melody in my head already, learning the tune is soooo much easier and I remember it better. I love what Michael said about "remembering the sound the fiddle makes when your fingers are at a particular place on the fiddle." That seems to describe it quite well. I think you have to internalize the tune first before you can really learn it.
Ostrichfeathers, nice to meet you! Just for comparing notes--when I started learning harp, we had maybe 2 lessons just on technique, then went to a simple song (Star of the Couty Down) then right onto the dance tunes! (Of course, still working on technique at the same time) I think after about 4 or 5 jigs and hornpipes we went onto reels. I don't think they are any more difficult than jigs and hornpipes, personally. I had no prior music experience except for about 2 years piano as a child and 2 years playing violin/viola very poorly in elementary school. I had learned to sight read--at least to know what note the dot on the staff was supposed to be. That definitely helps when I want to get past a hard spot in a tune or attempt to learn one using listening from a CD and looking at the notes combo.
Anyway, welcome to the session--it is nice to have another harpist (harper) here. Do you prefer harpist or harper, by the way? Seems in the US, people who play only Irish music prefer harper and in Ireland they say harpist no matter what kind of music you play. Personally I prefer harper, but often say harpist when talking to people unfamiliar with Irish music, it's just easier. To me it's kinda like fiddler vs. violinist.
As far as lessons go--no written stuff used at all. So the only way I know how to teach is to follow my teacher's example, since it worked (still works) for me.
# Posted on April 24th 2003 by Andee
Re: Private Lessons
I say harpist myself because I do both Irish and pedal harp (i'm in college for pedal harp now.) It just seems to roll off the tongue nicely for me, anyway...
I think there are probably lots of ways to approach teaching dance tunes. What I've found people find more difficult about reels are that their rhythm and accenting are more complex and technically difficult especially at dance tempo. They do tend to go faster than hornpipes, in particular--at least they should! (Pet peeve: hornpipes played unintentionally so as to be indistinguishable from reels. If anyone was at the All-Ireland Senior fiddle in 2001, they know what I'm talking about.)
One thing that dictates how I teach is that I really want people to play easy enough things that they can play them exactly as they should be played stylistically from the very beginning, with lots of musicality, never "just notes." So, I wait on the dance tunes until I know they can integrate style and ornamentation all at once and that bringing up the tempo will be easy. I started doing this after experience teaching just the melodies to dance tunes and not worrying about style, accenting or ornamentation, and finding that to go back and fix these things later didn't work.
The reason I do sheet music is that a lot of my students, especially kids, do school orchestra and pedal harp as well. I also have found that students' ear skills may be well behind their technical ability, which if it is the case, they will be working on as another aspect of their lessons, and so giving them something written to refer to in case they forget a fingering or a short passage means they can learn the arrangement (on harp you have a whole other thing to worry about!) in one week. If they're not getting a left hand the same week they learn the tune, all they get is a slow recording to figure it out from, and are expected to do it...but I have not yet found a tape recorder that clearly picks up the bass on the harp so that a student could really learn it from there. If anyone has, please let me know!! Surpisingly, though, the kids and teenagers that I teach genreally don't want to "cheat" and really do only look at sheet music I give them as a last resort...and before long they don't even want it anymore! The adults are another story, particularly when teaching accompaniment, which is totally improv...but that's another thing altogether. I'll probably post a separate question about that.
I really don't get to compare notes on teaching Irish very often, so this is cool! By the way, are you going to Harpcon this summer?
# Posted on April 25th 2003 by ostrichfeathers
Re: Private Lessons
You're right Michael, tunes learned only from the dots tend to be a bit stilted. It really helps hearing someone play it, especially something with a strong rhythm like a hornpipe or reel. And I often find that once I have the tune in my head I spend time re-learning it by ear, which is weird.
There's been some very interesting stuff coming up in this thread. I'm glad that I started reading it. Thanks guys.
Cat
# Posted on April 25th 2003 by cat
Re: Private Lessons
In the Boston and Cape Cod area, private lessons run anywhere from $30.00 - $55.00 per hour. The beginner tunes I learned were: Rattlin Bog, Up She Goes, Mairi's Wedding, and Connaughtsman's Rambles. Good luck!
# Posted on April 27th 2003 by jigsnreels