This is what happens when three people who don't know any better try to play Irish music in concert. I'm convinced the violinist is looking at sheet music some of the time, is it just me or is the rhythm, tone, ornamentation etc. all wrong here?
There are music stands there, I hope to God the bodhrán player isn't reading from music!
I don't normally pick on non-professional people playing Irish music badly but when they post it on youtube someone needs to tell them if there's something seriously wrong with it.
yep, I agree. It sounds like a classical player that doesn't know any better. very square, IMO. and I don't believe it's "just you." I'm relatively new to this and even I can hear that this just ain't right...
Yeah, it's obviously being played as if it were a classical piece. The rhythm is not there at all. Couldn't tap your foot to it if someone put a gun to your head and tried to force you to. Nice technique, no pulse, no good.
The orchestra-style music stands are a good indication of where this went wrong. These guys are playing from dots and have no idea of what it's really supposed to sound like.
Actually folks this player has a lovely sound and is playing a bit off track but that is better than the scrawbing and squaking I often hear in sessions,
So instead of knocking her how about learning something about better bowing and with that a better sound?
Like I said.... I don't think she knows any better. And I know what it's like, could have been (actually was) me several years ago before my foray into the world of fiddle from violin. Yes, the tone is lovey, and the classical technique is good, but does that mean it's ITM? I don't mean to be knocking her, I just recognise the difference between an etude and a tune... finally!
Not sure how to describe it, but the linear flow is just not there.
But, if this person were to spend time listening to ITM and playing with others that have an idea of what it "is," she'd probably figure it out because it's obvious that the ear is there.
I get it, having been there.
Come on you guys... this isn't fair. We know nothing about the circumstances surrounding this performance or who these people are. They might not even know this video exists and I doubt they thought it would be used as a bad example. Unless they are claiming this exemplifies ITM at its best we really have no right to use this as an example. In other words... go find someone your own size to pick on.
Sure, these guys are obviously not bad musicans and I don't think anyone is saying that they are. But the point of the post is that it's very possible to play ITM badly even if you are a good musician, if you don't understand the music.
Do you doubt that? I mean, listen to it...would you consider that proper trad? It's nothing against the musicians really, but the music sure loses a lot when it's played wrong.
They chose to perform ITM and to post a video publicly for all to listen to...I think it's fair to criticise their failing to play anything close to what they were aiming for. If you post your playing on YouTube, then I think that you are fair game. If you want to make your performance available to the world, then the world has the right to comment on it.
If someone posted this against the will of the musicians then that's a different story, but we don't know that. I hope that the video wasn't posted without the permission of the performers, as that would be pretty bad.
PB, it appears that this is a public concert posted on youtube by the people themselves. If you click on the poster of the video you'll see a whole concert of Irish stuff done by them like this. This is why I posted this. I don't think it's unfair to point out to people that stuff like this really shouldn't be posted on youtube as an example of 'Irish music'.
If the violinist in question happens to discover this discussion then maybe she'll learn a thing or too. No one is ripping her to shreds, I think it's all been constructive criticism and nobody learns without some constructive criticism. It's great that she is playing Irish tunes but it's not great that she's playing them like that in public.
I'd also add that her tone while good for classical music isn't good for trad, it's too clean.........
I found this doing a youtube search for Paddy Fahey whose music and playing I love, so I guess I just got a bit annoyed when one of the first things I came across was this!
"I'd also add that her tone while good for classical music isn't good for trad, it's too clean"
Well, I gotta disagree with you there, frisbee I don't think that there's anything wrong with a clean, beautiful tone, as long as the groove is there. I really like her tone, actually.
ah screetch you see most of the great trad fiddle players have a bit of grit in their tone, a bit of dirt, when this gets cleaned up it just isn't Irish music to me.
Listen to Tommy Peoples, James Byrne, Martin Hayes, Frankie Gavin, Tommy Potts, John Doherty, Charlie Lennon and on and on, they've all got this kind of grit in their tone. Even Paddy Glackin and Sean Maguire who had classical training (and I'm sure both knew how to produce a beautiful 'classical' tone) use a gritty sound when playing trad. To me their sound is beautiful but it's not squeaky clean like classical players get because that sound just isn't the sound of Irish music.
The gritty tone I think has links to fiddle players trying to get a sound close to the Uilleann Pipes, it's nothing to do with sloppy technique, in fact it is a sign of great Irish fiddle technique that someone can produce such a gritty sound without it sounding like a bad player scratching away at a fiddle.
I think some people have an idea that all these old fiddle players had bad technique because the tone they produced wasn't clean like classical players but it's not that at all, Irish music needs a different tone to classical music because it's different music altogether.........
The one thing about this clip is that is truly brings out our perception of what we think is best in Irtrad fiddle, and yes there is a valid point of view here that says playing sweet but off time is simply wrong.
But I don't hear that is the problem in this case. She clearly has terrible timing on decorations and that throws the excellent sound out of the window IF one is compelled by rhythm. But that is the point, not everybody is so compelled.
Have a look at this - http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/15772/comments#comment327701 - particularly the second half where I'm talking about one Christopher Hilton. Now that was a comment about a young professional, probably just out of college at the time, but his CD is still on the market. - not that anyone here is likely to buy it
There's quite a number of players out there with feet in both camps - classical and Irish trad - and who can play well at a top level in both (I met one such last weekend), but they usually have the ability to change their tone (a different fiddle for both types of playing helps here) and mental outlook when switching from one genre to another - a bit like the difference between chatting with your mates in a pub session and giving a formal presentation the next day to a scientific conference.
Sheesh. So harsh. (But I'll confess that I'm inclined to agree).
I don't think it's her overly good tone, it's her rhythm. In fact, I think this is another example of what I was thinking about when I posted this discussion: http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/14666
Just because other stuff from that same poster is also on YouTube still doesn't confirm that they were responsible for posting it or even know it's been posted. One time in this forum someone posted clips asking for names of tunes and it turned out to be me and my mates at our session. I just thank God that didn't become a discussion about how bad players can be. I'm also glad there was no YouTube back when I started playing ITM because we were asked to play at a public library and other similar gigs way before we knew what we were doing. It wasn't that we were bad musicians; we all were music majors in college and had a good reputation for playing renaissance and medieval music. We had just discovered ITM, but we played as though we were playing the other music. It took a while to figure out what exactly the difference was -- I'm still trying to figure it out. But I'm glad there's no video documentation of it that might get posted on YouTube and then a link posted in here and get picked clean by the ITM vultures.
I understand what the discussion is, but I object to using people as an example without knowing anything about them, who or how it was posted and what the gig was all about. If we find out they posted it themselves, then I'll feel differently, but until we know for certain It just seems like bad form.
The main problem IMHO with the clip, is the woeful accompaniment. Bodhran man is farting around with the rhythm, and the guitarist is a couple of milliseconds behind, because she doesnt know where the tunes are going chord-wise. The unfortunate fiddler is fine, just that she's expending all her energy trying to unify the sound of the ensemble - an impossible task if your cohorts are not up to speed
Since the woman is apparently a Suzuki teacher the chances are very high that she would have the music in her head for playing in public, and, as P-K says, the music stand probably holds nothing more than a running order list. During the video she hardly ever looks at the stand, she seems to be trying to keep eye contact with the other two (and don't they need it!).
Note her relaxed upper right arm; its weight hanging from the shoulder provides the bow pressure on the string.
yeah Lazyhound, Drowsy Maggie is in Book 5, right after the A minor 2nd movement Vivaldi...you need to master Maggie before the up bow staccatos in the von Weber..hehehe...still working on that...
she does have a nice looking form...I like to see that...she is comfortable with her bow and fiddle
Listening to her performance of the second tune, Paddy Fahy's, there's some tasty ornamentation and variation in there. But I think we can safely assume that it is not her own - she must have painstakingly transcribed it, note-for-note from a recording. Full marks for attention to detail. A few years of sitting in sessions with box players should knock her into shape.
The person who submitted the video is based in New jersey. Perhaps someone should email them with details of sessions in their area.
I was trained classically for 6 years as a kid and have played Irish for the past six years. I can safely say that my authentic, "gritty" sound comes from my abject and total laziness when it comes to cleaning the used rosin off of my strings. The mystery is solved. First lesson of classical to Trad crossover: Quit cleaning yer fiddle like a total neurotic with obsessive compulsive disorder.. Thank you and good night. [/sarcasm]
It seems that the video was posted by the musicians themselves, a group called LagansLove. The whistle/bodhran player is a member here, using the name LagansLove.com, although that URL leads to a blank page.
I also note that they messed up the tune titles. The first, not the second, tune is the Torn Jacket (the Youtube clip says Torn Hat). But maybe that only bolsters their trad credibility!
'there's some tasty ornamentation and variation in there' - maybe if she was playing Baroque music but she's not, her ornaments are baroque ornaments not Irish ornaments, she articulates them way too slowly.
SWFL Fiddler, the gritty tone is not related to rosin. I know plenty of good players who clean their fiddles regularly but still get that gritty sound, it's more to do with bow pressure I think and perhaps also the way the bowing arm is used. The whole classical technique where the bowing arm is so straight and rigid looking hinders the player from getting the right tone. I know some classically trained trad fiddle players who make the switch well and one of the main things they do is change the way they hold their bowing arm.
Look this girl obviously has a very good classical technique but it just isn't working for Irish music. As GaryAMartin points out it looks very much like these videos have been posted on youtube by the musicians themselves so I think it's valid to point out where they are going wrong. Maybe someone should email the poster of the video to make sure it is them that posted it and maybe they could be directed to this discussion so they might realise they've a lot of work to be doing with the music before presenting it in concert and on youtube like that.
I don't mean to be too critical of these musicians but sometimes it's kind to be cruel
"'there's some tasty ornamentation and variation in there' - maybe if she was playing Baroque music but she's not..."
Yes frisbee - perhaps I didn't expess that very well. I was referring to her *placement* of ornaments and variations rather than her *execution* of them. Her rolls do sound more like baroque turns. But it doesn't sound as if she picked the tune out of a book of session tunes. The variations sound, to me, very much like what a traditional fiddler would play - but not played the way they would play them.
We are so very quick to knock classical players, yet I have never heard one of my classical colleagues knock any kind of trad playing. And I wonder, when we criticize "rhythm", what are we really talking about? Those 8th notes were clean and tight. Does a two-beat pulse have to hit you in the head before it's called "good rhythm"?
"We are so very quick to knock classical players, yet I have never heard one of my classical colleagues knock any kind of trad playing",
Erm....classical musicians have looked down upon trad players for centuries and many still do. Maybe your colleagues are just compensating for this or maybe they just aren't saying anything out of political correctness. Having studied in a classical college I met plenty of classical musicians who think trad is inferior music and that trad players have poor technique and tone.
The player in the clip has absolutely no swing in her playing, no bounce, she has that very forced rubato style ingrained in her rhythm which is now a standard for classical music but not trad.
We're not knocking her playing of classical music which I'm sure would be very good, we're knocking her playing of trad music which is stylistically not right. If classical players studied performance styles of traditional music as much as they studied performance styles of baroque music then perhaps they wouldn't have such problems with the rhythm, tone, phrasing etc.
I think when we criticise rhythm, it's not so much about the tightness of the notes, nor the accuracy when compared to sheet music - it's more about the emphasis that comes with experience, the knowledge acquired through listening - about more than what can be notated. It's what sets a trad beginner apart from a trad veteran. Sorry for vagueness of description, I'm tired.
Oh, and agree with Frisbee about the classical players looking down thing. My school has a tiny music department which is totally dominated by a small number of classical musicians who look down on me as a complete non-entity (doesn't bother me too much though). My first singing lesson with a new teacher began "So...I hear you like...folk...music. I can't say I approve."
"... a gritty sound when playing trad ... squeaky clean (tone) like classical players get ..."
Good classical violin soloists can get plenty of grit in their tone when the music demands it.
But I don't think gritty vs. clean is the main issue. Rhythm and timing are far more important. Being told to lose the beautiful tone you have laboured over for years might be a bit hard to swallow for a well-schooled classical violinist - it would seem somewhat counter-intuitive. Developing first of all a solid sense of rhythm and a feel for the ornamentation would surely help provide a context for 'refinements' (or whatever the opposite of that is) of tone etc.
Not having studied classical performance to a high level, I can only speculate. But to my knowledge, there is very little emphasis on *rhythm* as such in classical music teaching. There is emphasis on precision of timing, but not on the idea of rhythm as a 'living entity', I think. Even music that is clearly based on dance is typically performed with some degree of rubato (speeding up and slowing down, for those who don't know), so the musician is not allowed to be taken over by the rhythm.
As I have said, I am not classically trained to a high level - I don't know much of what goes on beyond grade VI (and that was on piano - perhaps it differs from one instrument to another). Perhaps Frisbee or someone else can set me straight on this.
In all honesty you hit the nail right on the head. I don't do anything consciously. A lot of "scratchiness" simply comes from concentration on speed and rhythm with bowing as opposed to tone and other more classical virtues.
Not that tone isn't vital either, it just appears to me "scratchiness" appears almost as a side product of putting speed and rhythm first, or "rhythm and timing" as NameChanges nailed it down. "I was so worried about tempo, rhythm, timing and lift that I started to sound scratchy!"
The hard part is not losing your tone. The hard part is elevating the tune over the tone. They don't have to lose their tone, they need to agonizingly realize there are vastly more important things to be concentrating on. We sacrifice tone for the tune, we sacrifice all for the tune. Heck, we sacrifice notes for the tune if it's got enough bpm's.
"I was so worried about tempo, rhythm, timing and lift that I started to sound scratchy!"
"We sacrifice tone for the tune."
I'm glad you said that, SWFL. I didn't have the guts. And I haven't been playing (with) the fiddle all that long, so I sound scratchy whether I want to or not. I think it is true to say, though, that most traditional fiddlers don't invest a lot of time and effort in producing a particular tone, beyond being able to bow a clear, musical note - they develop their tone organically as they learn the music. (The best players, regardless of style or genre, are no doubt able to make fine adjustments to their tone as they choose.) Similary, I think a classical-violinist-turned-trad-fiddler will naturally 'lose' their classical tone (or acquire a more 'traditional' tone) by focusing on other aspects of their playing.
As for performing traditional music in public as a beginner (which was the original topic of this thread): Like it or not, it is quite a common thing. Musicians who have discovered the music on recordings but haven't yet discovered the joy of a good session often want some outlet for their playing. I played 'Irish Traditional' music in a band before I ever went to a session - and I was a d@µn sight worse than the lady in the video (I disappear into the floor when I listen back to the tapes). I'd never have got away with it in Ireland - and neither would they. But New Jersey isn't Connemara, remember.
The URL of the poster is; http://www.youtube.com/LagansLove
There is a photo of the bodhran player.
They have this description on one clip;
LagansLove performs with Mick Mitsch singing, Linda O'Connell Harp, Aimee Morrill fiddle.
So it is possible on YouTube to send an email to the poster, Mick.
"As for performing traditional music in public as a beginner (which was the original topic of this thread)"
I don't think that these guys are beginners really. If they were I'd be less inclined to criticize them. I think that they are good musicians who have all of the ability necessary to play it right but haven't done enough listening (at least in the case of the fidder).
There's nothing wrong with a beginner getting it wrong, we've all been there. But an accomplished classical player shouldn't come to trad and play it like it's learning a new piece of classical music. That's really the only thing that I'm critical of here, the musicianship isn't the problem.
I took a look at some of their other clips and it's very clear that they know their instruments and are good musicians. But here's a really good example of the problem that I think that some of us are talking about below. Listen to the fiddler playing the butterfly. It's very very much played in the classical style...sounds beautiful and shows a lot of skill, but doesn't sound at all like it should:
Of all of them I think that I like hearing the bodhran player playing whistle most of all. I hate to keep picking on the fiddler but it's partly because she is such a good player, which makes me think that she ought to come at it with more of an understanding of the style.
Sunnybear, my Suzuki teacher is working me through Book 4 right now - next year I get to learn Drowsy Maggie in Book 5 . So Book 5 is where the slow movement of the Vivaldi has got to - I wondered why it wasn't in Book 4 along with the rest of his opus 3 no 6.
"I don't think that these guys are beginners really."
They may not be beginners on their respective instruments, or to music a a whole. But I suspect they are relatively new to traditional music - at least, they haven't yet discovered how to make it work. (If they have been playing like that for 10 years, then they're probably doomed to eternal beginnerhood. But if they rally are good musicians, I can't see how that could be possible).
"a classical-violinist-turned-trad-fiddler will naturally 'lose' their classical tone (or acquire a more 'traditional' tone) by focusing on other aspects of their playing"
That's all it takes, worked for me. Now I can go back to cleaning the tone up without losing the "it" that makes "it" what "it" is.
Oh crap, we're back on that Zen thing again I see. [sigh]
it comes right after the Bach Cello suite that has been transcribed for violin...it is in Book 5, I think, because of the shifting (up to 5th position) and the intonation challenges it presents...it is not that terribly difficult..it is very beautiful..what I learned most from that piece was to listen to myself.
Nowhere does it mention she plays ITM, and the closest reference is that she was a fiddler for English folk dances for five years. She's not promoting herself as an exponent of ITM or even an ITM artist. She plays in what appears to be some local group of friends that gave themselves a name and probably were invited to perform at some public event in their area. The bodhran player thought it would be fun to post it on YouTube. Little did he know...
"But if they rally are good musicians, I can't see how that could be possible"
I can, if they haven't done enough listening and the fact that they are good musicians blinds them to the fact that they don't have the style down. Especially if the local audience doesn't know much about trad, which is highly likely.
And yes, I've had an email exchange with the guy who posted the video. You can't give constructive criticism behind someone's back. He was very nice and seemed to really want to know how to nail things down. He was so nice I felt a bit bad about being critical at all, but hey, if it helps them become a better band I don't mind being the bad guy.
"She plays in what appears to be some local group of friends that gave themselves a name and probably were invited to perform at some public event in their area. The bodhran player thought it would be fun to post it on YouTube. Little did he know..."
They have a band, they perform live and post their videos on YouTube, and they have a web site with videos of several performances. They list their status on the web site as "unsigned," which I take as a sign that they aren't just kidding around. And we're supposed to feel bad for taking them seriously?
As opposed to what, condescending to them? I think it shows more respect to take them seriously and treat them as if they are taking their music seriously.
Aside from the YouTube page I haven't found any website for them. I think "unsigned" might be a generic part of the YouTube page... but I'm not sure. What other options does it give you besides "unsigned"? "open for criticism" "ready to be picked apart"?
You might be right about the "unsigned" bit, I didn't think of that, but I still think that they are serious. The link to the web site is above in Tonya's post; it's a YouTube site but many bands--including well established bands--use YouTube to promote their bands.
If they're just friends who get together to have fun and they hate me for criticizing them, oh well, but I think that they are serious. The bodrhan player certainly seemed open to constructive criticism and was very nice about it.
I really think that they have what it takes and just need to work on the style, so I don't feel bad about taking the chance at hurting their feelings if there's a chance that it will make them a better band. Sometimes it takes that to treat fellow musicians with repect.
Well, if they're playing in public you'd hope they had a fairly thick skin anyway. Everyone should do at least one gig at that roadhouse from The Blues Brothers where the band has to play behind reinforced chicken wire.
You could definitely call it "how not to accompany Irish music". The guitar isn't even in tune.
I agree that the fiddler is good but her rhythm is off (she isn't getting any help from the others, that's for sure). It feels like she's trying to get too many ornaments in when she can't play them fast enough. And what's with the music stand? She hasn't memorized the tunes?
Even leaving aside the rhythm, tone, choice of ornamentation, etc, the the description "fastest Drowsy Maggie on Planet Earth!!" makes clear these musicians' lack of exposure to ITM: go to any session, anywhere on Planet Earth, and you're almost guaranteed hear a rendition of Drowsy Maggie just as fast as that one.
I hope that you understand that my crticism was aimed her style, not her skill. And it wasn't really meant to be mean, but to be constructive.
I've felt bad all day about contacting you--it really wasn't fun for me--but I'm not going to talk about how someone needs constructive critisism behind their back and not have the guts to actually offer it. Maybe that makes me a jerk, but I'd rather be a jerk than a hypocrite or coward. For what little it may be worth, my intentions were good and I really wasn't out to put anyone down.
I stand by everything I've said, except the stuff about tapping your foot in my first post--that was over the top and was meant for comedic effect, but it stopped being funny to me right after I posted it. That was a bit much and was obviously exaggerated.
The late Sean Maguire was classically trained so that puts paid to the argument that classically trained violin don't make good ITM players. It's all in the genes you see. As for the Utube clip - well the excitement I felt when she upped the tempo for Drowsy Maggie' I nearly fell off me zimmer frame. I'm also pretty sure that the guitar used to play with Metalica, or maybe it was The Grateful Dead
"I think a classical-violinist-turned-trad-fiddler will naturally 'lose' their classical tone (or acquire a more 'traditional' tone) by focusing on other aspects of their playing"
Now where does that leave me, I wonder. A classical cellist who started playing the fiddle 7 years ago and has played nothing but ITM on the instrument in that time, and is now having violin lessons from a Suzuki-trained teacher who plays classical and folk, and plays in a band. I must be the original one-man awkward squad.
BB, were you joking? I thought so at first, but I didn't want to assume just in case. But you don't seem to be on the right continent.
But lay my mind to rest; I don't regret contacting those guys but I hate to think that I've offended, so please put my mind to rest if you aren't that bodhran player that I contacted today.
Not that I put more stock in the feelings of board members versus other musicians, but it was hard to try to offer constructive criticism to a complete stranger so I'd like to know if I've caused offense. It was a pretty difficult thing to do.
Heh, I kind of thought so, but it's been on my mind all day. My email exchanges with the guy were polite and positive, but it's hard to tell a musician that you don't know that they are playing it all wrong. But since I was criticizing them here I felt obligated to bring it to them, where it could do some good.
"The late Sean Maguire was classically trained so that puts paid to the argument that classically trained violin don't make good ITM players"
Free Reed if you look at one of my earlier posts you'll see how I mention people like Sean Maguire and Paddy Glackin and their classical training. I don't think anyone doesn't think that a classically trained player has the ability to play trad successfully, they just have to dedicate a lot of time to it to do it right, Sean Maguire and Paddy Glackin certainly did, indeed they spent a lot more time on trad than classical.
I know a few young american classically trained players who are now very good at Irish music but they'll be the first to admit that it took them a lot of time to adjust, one of them is a regular poster on this site but I'm not going to name her. I will say that she comes over to Ireland a lot and learns from master fiddle players and this has obviously helped her playing immensely.
If the lady in the youtube clip had the same dedication I'm sure she'd become a brilliant trad player. Until such time as she does I hope she thinks again before playig Irish music in public and allowing her mate to post her performances of Irish music on youtube!!!
For what it's worth, the guy who posted the video acknowledged the fact that they weren't playing together very well and knew that they had it wrong there.
That's not such a big deal, and that can come together with practice. But the lack of proper rhythmn with the melody instrument isn't something that will get better with practice and will likely get worse, so that's what I spoke to him about. If the backers are a bit off, so what, they can fix that.
But having the fiddle in the wrong style is fatal and unfixable unless they know about it and do something about it.
Oh, and the bodhran and guitar players play in sessions but nothing was said about the fiddle (violin) player. She's probably the best musician in the lot and ironically the biggest problem, maybe due to the fact that she's a good musician and no one wants to tell her that she's got something wrong.
I was shocked to think you could be that bodhran player. It made me think that I had bodhran playing all wrong and that you were on another plane of excellence that I couldn't possibly understand.
But I guess I was wrong. But I still think that you are the best. No, I know that you are the best. And it's not just the beer talking. At least not while the beer lasts.
When I listened to the YouTube clip, I heard someone playing some traditional dance tunes in a non traditional style. Perhaps it could be called Suzuki style, perhaps not. I found the clarity of the melody interesting, it was fun to hear each an every note so clearly. I missed the implied harmonies that make me sit up and take notice when a good ITM fiddler takes the lead. I also thought that this was not an effective way to create dance music, a bit too fast for my toes. It may be pointless to critisize her for failing to accomplish what she never tried to do.
"It may be pointless to critisize her for failing to accomplish what she never tried to do."
She's in a band that performs Irish tunes. What else would she be trying to do? They call it a "celtic" band, but unfortunately that's pretty common in the States and usually means Irish trad...there's not much of a notion here that there's any other kind of music made by celts.
I agree that her playing is very good, in its own way. But it's classical, not ITM. It's very much playing trad like it's a classical piece, and as someone who had to make the rather hard transition from classical to trad it rubs me the wrong way.
I think we’re taking this all too seriously. It’s just someone’s home video of loved ones playing in a little classroom of some 20 people, mostly kids it seems. I don’t think it’s meant it to be a concert for the masses.
We’ve probably all been to far too many “traditional” sessions in pubs that were infected with terrible timing, intonation to make the ears bleed, and just plain badly-played tunes - especially as the pints add up. I don’t see anyone here whining about those players.
As for the idea that knowing something about classical music automatically means that one cannot play traditional fiddle, well that’s just big pile of bologna.
Do you really think, for example, that the musical abilities of the members of Solas, including Winnie with her classical fiddle background, make them not worthy of playing Irish tunes?
Surely no one posting here sounded very great when they were learning to play. In fact, I’d go so far as to say the most players would sound no where near as good as they think they do if they were removed them the environment of the rumbling session of 10 inarticulate players in a noisy pub, full of loud drunks who don’t care about the music, and then record them in a sterile classroom with a small cheap microphone to be played back on tiny computer speakers.
And what’s on the music stand - music, lyrics, playllists, pizza menus? Who cares? Instead of slamming players we think are inferior to us, we should be listening and learning from the truly great musicians. Now that would benefit us all.
Lots of strange and interesting stuff there,KML.
I'm familiar with most.
IMO,Marcel Leroux has been comprehensively discredited.
In the interests of balance,I suggest http://www.realclimate.org/
for the best informed discussion
One conclusion to draw from all this- the technology that enables some fairly intimate and innocuous event to enter the wider public domain and be broadcast worldwide needs to be handled with care. I, for one, shan't knowingly be advertising my musical prowess on YouTube for a few decades yet!
I like this bit from the YouTube Community Guidelines;
YouTube is for the Community
Remember that this is your community! Each and every user of YouTube makes the site what it is, so don't be afraid to dig in and get involved!
* Have fun with the site. There's a lot here to see, and lots of folks making amazing stuff—one of them might be you! Equipment's getting cheaper and easier to use all the time, so dive in and enjoy.
* Let folks know what you think. Feedback's part of the experience, and when done with respect, can be a great way to make friends, share stories, and make your time on YouTube richer. So leave comments, rate videos, make your own responses to videos that affect you, enter contests of interest—there's a lot going on and a lot of ways to participate here.
I agree. The violinist is a highly trained and experienced professional player and teacher, and it goes without saying that she would wish to improve and get to grips with the Irish style. I think she would also realise that it is most certainly not a five-minute job!
So the bodhran player thought it would be a good idea to post a home video of their gig on YouTube. I still don't get the impression that the fiddler thought it would be fun because her playing would end up getting picked apart on an ITM specific website somewhere. I doubt the bodhran player himself thought so either let alone the back-up player. They don't appear to be promoting themselves as experts of Irish trad and they haven't asked for any advice from the public at large. It still feels like bad form to me to criticize them the way some of you have... sorry.
As I don't have broadband ( cue for a Bateman cartoon - The man who said he didn't have broadband ! ) I couldn't be bothered to wait while the whole video downloaded.
Still, I'm baffled.
How could that lady have been playing folk dance music, even english FDM, especially for actual dancing, for 5 years and not have picked up any of the rhythm and the swing ?
It just goes to show why too much exposure to classical music training is bad for your music.
PB, I like what you're saying because you're defending fellow musicians and I can't fault that.
But look, this isn't a home video. They have a band, they perform, and they are posting performances on YouTube. Are you sure that they didn't post the videos precisely to get critical feedback? The guy who posted the videos, at least, certainly seems open to feedback.
Again, I kind of like what you're saying because I know that you are railing against anonymous blow-hards who just want to kick some newbie to the curb out of some feeling of superiority. But are you sure that that's what's going on here?
When I researched the gal playing fiddle I couldn't find anywhere that she personally promoted herself as any sort of Irish trad fiddler at all. For that reason to have her playing caught on amateur video posted on YouTube and then torn apart by ITM aficionados just doesn't feel right to me. If you guys really want to explore your hypothesis about classically trained ITM fiddlers I think you first need to find a professional player who promotes them self as an expert in ITM styles who started out as a classical player to use as your example. In this thread all you did was beat up some unsuspecting fiddler.
More to the point might be;
'who on this thread is a member of the YouTube community with posting representative of Irish tradition music?'
Probably most of you but let's see the proof. It's pudding as they say.
Tonya, yes, I considered that option - but what if I ever decide to delete those links?...
Anyway, I came back to this thread to mention what I'd forgotten to add - namely that my wife was one of the dancers in those set dances in Kilrush.
Also, I have a couple of still photos on Flickr of me playing the fiddle, but no matter how hard you listen you can't quite catch those incredibly fast rolls
Phantom, there's a professional classical violinist and teacher in Bristol (she's played in some of the major UK orchestras) who took the trouble a few years ago to spend a couple of years in Limerick learning the fiddle and doing a degree in Irish music at the uni there. She's since taught ITM to a respectable number of players in Bristol. I don't think she's a session.org member so I won't mention her name here, but I'll email you tomorrow.
Now that this topic seems to have run it's course perhaps it's time for a summary....
Why did I post this video? Some people have accused me of being unfair or elitist in picking on the players like this but here's why I posted it.
I was on youtube searching for Paddy Fahey tunes and this video was one of the first things that came up. As soon as I saw it I knew it just wasn't right so I decided to post it on here to see what other people thought.
It's obvious to me that the musicians on the clip were oblivious to the fact that they just weren't getting it right. I know many people new to trad come visit this site and know that many of them are classical musicians. I though that by posting this video and explaining what was wrong with it then it could be enlightening for these players and others.
It seems that most people agree that the interpretation is missing the right rhythm, ornamentation, lift and backing. The violinist certainly has excellent technique for classical music but if she wants to perform Irish music it's obvious to most of us that she has a lot to learn, similarly the other musicians have a lot to learn also.
Remember this video was posted by the musicians themselves, they are a group who describe themselves as playing Celtic music. They perform the music live.
So what's the harm in constructively criticising these things in a public arena? After all they posted the video on youtube for the world to see..
I posted this for the good of the music more than anything because if the music is being played and broadcast publically then surely when it is not right it needs to be pointed out, otherwise other people without the knowledge might think that this is the right way to play the music and they will learn it like this and others will learn it from them and so on until a very skewed version of the music develops.
This is not a case of stylistic freedom, I'm all for players who are well versed in the music going off in unique styles. This is a case of musicians of a good level who misunderstand the music on a fundamental level. They haven't got the rhythm, the lift or the ornamentation anywhere near right. These things are so fundamental to the music that without them it simply isn't Irish music.
It's important for those of us who love the music to ensure that the fundamental qualities that make Irish music what it is don't get lost due to musicians taking the music, adapting it and publically broadcasting it without actually learning it properly first.
I apologise if by posting this I offended anyone but remember the people in this video posted this on youtube themselves and for that reason I believe I was well within my right to post this discussion.
I mist add that the classical violinist and teacher in Bristol who learned the fiddle in Ireland said that it took her two years to eradicate her classical style from her fiddle playing, thus effectively making her bilingual in both musical languages. So that shows it can be done, but it takes time and dedication.
I think she's doing well, for a classical player who is obviously somewhat new to Irish music.
As someone pointed out above, she seems to be playing a version based on a detailed transcription of a traditional player, as the ornamentatin doesn't seem to flow naturally from her interaction with the tune. Rather the ornamentation seems to be built into the version which she is faithfully performing.
After more listening to trad players, and playing along with others at sessions, she will probably develop into a good trad-sounding player. Suzuki-trained violinists are like that- they have great ears and soon can mimick pretty much any style they are exposed to.
"otherwise other people without the knowledge might think that this is the right way to play the music and they will learn it like this and others will learn it from them and so on until a very skewed version of the music develops."
taken from frisbee's post above. It is the premise on which he stands. It is similar to the domino theory. I thought it might warrant repetition.
Wince! What more can i say? I know i go on about ornaments, and rhythm. Perhaps this is one reason why.!
>>I think she's doing well, for a classical player who is obviously somewhat new to Irish music>>
I cant agree, there are numerous basic errors which would not be tolerated in any musical form! let alone 'classical'!
IT might seem harsh to critisise an individual, but we are simply using this film to point out pottential and actual problem. After all I am sure she recognises the 'faults' though quite how she let the clip get on you tube is beyond me!
She has a nice tone, and her intonation is good. but there were both blatent rhythmic errors as well as subtle 'misses'. Rhythm is a case for absolute precision, without that precision, it simply evaporates.
I am sure with a bit more work and understanding she could be a good fiddler, in what ever genre she chooses and i wish her the best of luck.
Hello! Not had a look here for a while. How Not To Play Irish Music.
Stop having a go at the fiddle-player. It's the bodhrán-player's fault! For some reason, he doesn't seem to have the "swing", either. That would have helped.
How not to play Irish music
How not to play Irish music
This is what happens when three people who don't know any better try to play Irish music in concert. I'm convinced the violinist is looking at sheet music some of the time, is it just me or is the rhythm, tone, ornamentation etc. all wrong here?
There are music stands there, I hope to God the bodhrán player isn't reading from music!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvjQ8TfMjf0
I don't normally pick on non-professional people playing Irish music badly but when they post it on youtube someone needs to tell them if there's something seriously wrong with it.
So am I being too harsh or is it just bad?
# Posted on November 24th 2007 by Worldwide Pants
Re: How not to play Irish music
yep, I agree. It sounds like a classical player that doesn't know any better. very square, IMO. and I don't believe it's "just you." I'm relatively new to this and even I can hear that this just ain't right...
# Posted on November 24th 2007 by wyogal
Re: How not to play Irish music
Yeah, it's obviously being played as if it were a classical piece. The rhythm is not there at all. Couldn't tap your foot to it if someone put a gun to your head and tried to force you to. Nice technique, no pulse, no good.
The orchestra-style music stands are a good indication of where this went wrong. These guys are playing from dots and have no idea of what it's really supposed to sound like.
# Posted on November 24th 2007 by Marklar
Re: How not to play Irish music
Actually folks this player has a lovely sound and is playing a bit off track but that is better than the scrawbing and squaking I often hear in sessions,
So instead of knocking her how about learning something about better bowing and with that a better sound?
# Posted on November 24th 2007 by Schlongbow
Re: How not to play Irish music
She may have good technique, but I'd take better rhythm and less technique any day. It the rhythm is off, it just isn't right.
I'd much prefer the scrawbing and squaking if the rhythm is right, myself.
# Posted on November 24th 2007 by Marklar
Re: How not to play Irish music
Er, If not It. I wish we had an edit button on this board...:(
# Posted on November 24th 2007 by Marklar
Re: How not to play Irish music
Like I said.... I don't think she knows any better. And I know what it's like, could have been (actually was) me several years ago before my foray into the world of fiddle from violin. Yes, the tone is lovey, and the classical technique is good, but does that mean it's ITM? I don't mean to be knocking her, I just recognise the difference between an etude and a tune... finally!
Not sure how to describe it, but the linear flow is just not there.
But, if this person were to spend time listening to ITM and playing with others that have an idea of what it "is," she'd probably figure it out because it's obvious that the ear is there.
I get it, having been there.
# Posted on November 24th 2007 by wyogal
Re: How not to play Irish music
Come on you guys... this isn't fair. We know nothing about the circumstances surrounding this performance or who these people are. They might not even know this video exists and I doubt they thought it would be used as a bad example. Unless they are claiming this exemplifies ITM at its best we really have no right to use this as an example. In other words... go find someone your own size to pick on.
# Posted on November 24th 2007 by Phantom Button
Re: How not to play Irish music
Sure, these guys are obviously not bad musicans and I don't think anyone is saying that they are. But the point of the post is that it's very possible to play ITM badly even if you are a good musician, if you don't understand the music.
Do you doubt that? I mean, listen to it...would you consider that proper trad? It's nothing against the musicians really, but the music sure loses a lot when it's played wrong.
They chose to perform ITM and to post a video publicly for all to listen to...I think it's fair to criticise their failing to play anything close to what they were aiming for. If you post your playing on YouTube, then I think that you are fair game. If you want to make your performance available to the world, then the world has the right to comment on it.
If someone posted this against the will of the musicians then that's a different story, but we don't know that. I hope that the video wasn't posted without the permission of the performers, as that would be pretty bad.
# Posted on November 24th 2007 by Marklar
Re: How not to play Irish music
PB, it appears that this is a public concert posted on youtube by the people themselves. If you click on the poster of the video you'll see a whole concert of Irish stuff done by them like this. This is why I posted this. I don't think it's unfair to point out to people that stuff like this really shouldn't be posted on youtube as an example of 'Irish music'.
If the violinist in question happens to discover this discussion then maybe she'll learn a thing or too. No one is ripping her to shreds, I think it's all been constructive criticism and nobody learns without some constructive criticism. It's great that she is playing Irish tunes but it's not great that she's playing them like that in public.
I'd also add that her tone while good for classical music isn't good for trad, it's too clean.........
I found this doing a youtube search for Paddy Fahey whose music and playing I love, so I guess I just got a bit annoyed when one of the first things I came across was this!
# Posted on November 24th 2007 by Worldwide Pants
Re: How not to play Irish music
should also add that even though she hasn't got the right feel for the music the violinist is a lot better than the bodhrán player!
# Posted on November 24th 2007 by Worldwide Pants
Re: How not to play Irish music
"I'd also add that her tone while good for classical music isn't good for trad, it's too clean"
Well, I gotta disagree with you there, frisbee
I don't think that there's anything wrong with a clean, beautiful tone, as long as the groove is there. I really like her tone, actually.
# Posted on November 24th 2007 by Marklar
Re: How not to play Irish music
ah screetch you see most of the great trad fiddle players have a bit of grit in their tone, a bit of dirt, when this gets cleaned up it just isn't Irish music to me.
Listen to Tommy Peoples, James Byrne, Martin Hayes, Frankie Gavin, Tommy Potts, John Doherty, Charlie Lennon and on and on, they've all got this kind of grit in their tone. Even Paddy Glackin and Sean Maguire who had classical training (and I'm sure both knew how to produce a beautiful 'classical' tone) use a gritty sound when playing trad. To me their sound is beautiful but it's not squeaky clean like classical players get because that sound just isn't the sound of Irish music.
The gritty tone I think has links to fiddle players trying to get a sound close to the Uilleann Pipes, it's nothing to do with sloppy technique, in fact it is a sign of great Irish fiddle technique that someone can produce such a gritty sound without it sounding like a bad player scratching away at a fiddle.
I think some people have an idea that all these old fiddle players had bad technique because the tone they produced wasn't clean like classical players but it's not that at all, Irish music needs a different tone to classical music because it's different music altogether.........
# Posted on November 24th 2007 by Worldwide Pants
Re: How not to play Irish music
The one thing about this clip is that is truly brings out our perception of what we think is best in Irtrad fiddle, and yes there is a valid point of view here that says playing sweet but off time is simply wrong.
But I don't hear that is the problem in this case. She clearly has terrible timing on decorations and that throws the excellent sound out of the window IF one is compelled by rhythm. But that is the point, not everybody is so compelled.
# Posted on November 24th 2007 by Schlongbow
Re: How not to play Irish music
Have a look at this -
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/15772/comments#comment327701 - particularly the second half where I'm talking about one Christopher Hilton. Now that was a comment about a young professional, probably just out of college at the time, but his CD is still on the market. - not that anyone here is likely to buy it
There's quite a number of players out there with feet in both camps - classical and Irish trad - and who can play well at a top level in both (I met one such last weekend), but they usually have the ability to change their tone (a different fiddle for both types of playing helps here) and mental outlook when switching from one genre to another - a bit like the difference between chatting with your mates in a pub session and giving a formal presentation the next day to a scientific conference.
# Posted on November 24th 2007 by lazyhound
Re: How not to play Irish music
Sheesh. So harsh. (But I'll confess that I'm inclined to agree).
I don't think it's her overly good tone, it's her rhythm. In fact, I think this is another example of what I was thinking about when I posted this discussion: http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/14666
# Posted on November 24th 2007 by Georgi
Re: How not to play Irish music
Just because other stuff from that same poster is also on YouTube still doesn't confirm that they were responsible for posting it or even know it's been posted. One time in this forum someone posted clips asking for names of tunes and it turned out to be me and my mates at our session. I just thank God that didn't become a discussion about how bad players can be. I'm also glad there was no YouTube back when I started playing ITM because we were asked to play at a public library and other similar gigs way before we knew what we were doing. It wasn't that we were bad musicians; we all were music majors in college and had a good reputation for playing renaissance and medieval music. We had just discovered ITM, but we played as though we were playing the other music. It took a while to figure out what exactly the difference was -- I'm still trying to figure it out. But I'm glad there's no video documentation of it that might get posted on YouTube and then a link posted in here and get picked clean by the ITM vultures.
I understand what the discussion is, but I object to using people as an example without knowing anything about them, who or how it was posted and what the gig was all about. If we find out they posted it themselves, then I'll feel differently, but until we know for certain It just seems like bad form.
# Posted on November 24th 2007 by Phantom Button
Re: How not to play Irish music
At the end, the guy says something about the woman having a Suzuki studio, so maybe the stands are just there to hold the tune lists.
# Posted on November 24th 2007 by P-K
Re: How not to play Irish music
The main problem IMHO with the clip, is the woeful accompaniment. Bodhran man is farting around with the rhythm, and the guitarist is a couple of milliseconds behind, because she doesnt know where the tunes are going chord-wise. The unfortunate fiddler is fine, just that she's expending all her energy trying to unify the sound of the ensemble - an impossible task if your cohorts are not up to speed
# Posted on November 24th 2007 by Backer
Re: How not to play Irish music
Since the woman is apparently a Suzuki teacher the chances are very high that she would have the music in her head for playing in public, and, as P-K says, the music stand probably holds nothing more than a running order list. During the video she hardly ever looks at the stand, she seems to be trying to keep eye contact with the other two (and don't they need it!).
Note her relaxed upper right arm; its weight hanging from the shoulder provides the bow pressure on the string.
# Posted on November 24th 2007 by lazyhound
Re: How not to play Irish music
No comment other than inviting ye who are free from sin to cast the first stone.
# Posted on November 24th 2007 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: How not to play Irish music
yeah Lazyhound, Drowsy Maggie is in Book 5, right after the A minor 2nd movement Vivaldi...you need to master Maggie before the up bow staccatos in the von Weber..hehehe...still working on that...
she does have a nice looking form...I like to see that...she is comfortable with her bow and fiddle
# Posted on November 24th 2007 by Sunnybear
Re: How not to play Irish music
Listening to her performance of the second tune, Paddy Fahy's, there's some tasty ornamentation and variation in there. But I think we can safely assume that it is not her own - she must have painstakingly transcribed it, note-for-note from a recording. Full marks for attention to detail. A few years of sitting in sessions with box players should knock her into shape.
The person who submitted the video is based in New jersey. Perhaps someone should email them with details of sessions in their area.
# Posted on November 24th 2007 by granama
Re: How not to play Irish music
"...use a gritty sound when playing trad..."
I was trained classically for 6 years as a kid and have played Irish for the past six years. I can safely say that my authentic, "gritty" sound comes from my abject and total laziness when it comes to cleaning the used rosin off of my strings. The mystery is solved. First lesson of classical to Trad crossover: Quit cleaning yer fiddle like a total neurotic with obsessive compulsive disorder.. Thank you and good night. [/sarcasm]
# Posted on November 24th 2007 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: How not to play Irish music
It seems that the video was posted by the musicians themselves, a group called LagansLove. The whistle/bodhran player is a member here, using the name LagansLove.com, although that URL leads to a blank page.
I also note that they messed up the tune titles. The first, not the second, tune is the Torn Jacket (the Youtube clip says Torn Hat). But maybe that only bolsters their trad credibility!
# Posted on November 24th 2007 by GaryAMartin
Re: How not to play Irish music
'there's some tasty ornamentation and variation in there' - maybe if she was playing Baroque music but she's not, her ornaments are baroque ornaments not Irish ornaments, she articulates them way too slowly.
SWFL Fiddler, the gritty tone is not related to rosin. I know plenty of good players who clean their fiddles regularly but still get that gritty sound, it's more to do with bow pressure I think and perhaps also the way the bowing arm is used. The whole classical technique where the bowing arm is so straight and rigid looking hinders the player from getting the right tone. I know some classically trained trad fiddle players who make the switch well and one of the main things they do is change the way they hold their bowing arm.
Look this girl obviously has a very good classical technique but it just isn't working for Irish music. As GaryAMartin points out it looks very much like these videos have been posted on youtube by the musicians themselves so I think it's valid to point out where they are going wrong. Maybe someone should email the poster of the video to make sure it is them that posted it and maybe they could be directed to this discussion so they might realise they've a lot of work to be doing with the music before presenting it in concert and on youtube like that.
I don't mean to be too critical of these musicians but sometimes it's kind to be cruel
# Posted on November 24th 2007 by Worldwide Pants
Re: How not to play Irish music
It's not as bad as Frankie Gavin playing Bach!
# Posted on November 24th 2007 by neddiescotus
Re: How not to play Irish music
frisbee, please reread my post and look carefully for the "end sarcasm" tag at the finish. ;)
# Posted on November 24th 2007 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: How not to play Irish music
"'there's some tasty ornamentation and variation in there' - maybe if she was playing Baroque music but she's not..."
Yes frisbee - perhaps I didn't expess that very well. I was referring to her *placement* of ornaments and variations rather than her *execution* of them. Her rolls do sound more like baroque turns. But it doesn't sound as if she picked the tune out of a book of session tunes. The variations sound, to me, very much like what a traditional fiddler would play - but not played the way they would play them.
# Posted on November 24th 2007 by granama
Re: How not to play Irish music
We are so very quick to knock classical players, yet I have never heard one of my classical colleagues knock any kind of trad playing. And I wonder, when we criticize "rhythm", what are we really talking about? Those 8th notes were clean and tight. Does a two-beat pulse have to hit you in the head before it's called "good rhythm"?
# Posted on November 24th 2007 by Greg the Piano Tuner
Re: How not to play Irish music
sorry SWFL I thought you were just being sarcastic about this sentence
"Quit cleaning yer fiddle like a total neurotic with obsessive compulsive disorder.. Thank you and good night"
The rest of your post reads quite sincerely, guess that's the problem with trying to be sarcastic in print.
Oh and I REALLY agree with all your comments.all the time.....now was that sarcastic or not?
# Posted on November 24th 2007 by Worldwide Pants
Re: How not to play Irish music
"We are so very quick to knock classical players, yet I have never heard one of my classical colleagues knock any kind of trad playing",
Erm....classical musicians have looked down upon trad players for centuries and many still do. Maybe your colleagues are just compensating for this or maybe they just aren't saying anything out of political correctness. Having studied in a classical college I met plenty of classical musicians who think trad is inferior music and that trad players have poor technique and tone.
The player in the clip has absolutely no swing in her playing, no bounce, she has that very forced rubato style ingrained in her rhythm which is now a standard for classical music but not trad.
We're not knocking her playing of classical music which I'm sure would be very good, we're knocking her playing of trad music which is stylistically not right. If classical players studied performance styles of traditional music as much as they studied performance styles of baroque music then perhaps they wouldn't have such problems with the rhythm, tone, phrasing etc.
# Posted on November 24th 2007 by Worldwide Pants
Re: How not to play Irish music
I agree with NCRC about the ornaments.
I think when we criticise rhythm, it's not so much about the tightness of the notes, nor the accuracy when compared to sheet music - it's more about the emphasis that comes with experience, the knowledge acquired through listening - about more than what can be notated. It's what sets a trad beginner apart from a trad veteran. Sorry for vagueness of description, I'm tired.
# Posted on November 24th 2007 by mehitabel23
Re: How not to play Irish music
Oh, and agree with Frisbee about the classical players looking down thing. My school has a tiny music department which is totally dominated by a small number of classical musicians who look down on me as a complete non-entity (doesn't bother me too much though). My first singing lesson with a new teacher began "So...I hear you like...folk...music. I can't say I approve."
# Posted on November 24th 2007 by mehitabel23
Re: How not to play Irish music
"... a gritty sound when playing trad ... squeaky clean (tone) like classical players get ..."
Good classical violin soloists can get plenty of grit in their tone when the music demands it.
But I don't think gritty vs. clean is the main issue. Rhythm and timing are far more important. Being told to lose the beautiful tone you have laboured over for years might be a bit hard to swallow for a well-schooled classical violinist - it would seem somewhat counter-intuitive. Developing first of all a solid sense of rhythm and a feel for the ornamentation would surely help provide a context for 'refinements' (or whatever the opposite of that is) of tone etc.
# Posted on November 24th 2007 by granama
Re: How not to play Irish music
Not having studied classical performance to a high level, I can only speculate. But to my knowledge, there is very little emphasis on *rhythm* as such in classical music teaching. There is emphasis on precision of timing, but not on the idea of rhythm as a 'living entity', I think. Even music that is clearly based on dance is typically performed with some degree of rubato (speeding up and slowing down, for those who don't know), so the musician is not allowed to be taken over by the rhythm.
As I have said, I am not classically trained to a high level - I don't know much of what goes on beyond grade VI (and that was on piano - perhaps it differs from one instrument to another). Perhaps Frisbee or someone else can set me straight on this.
# Posted on November 24th 2007 by granama
Re: How not to play Irish music
LOL frisbee! I suppose I was half kidding.
In all honesty you hit the nail right on the head. I don't do anything consciously. A lot of "scratchiness" simply comes from concentration on speed and rhythm with bowing as opposed to tone and other more classical virtues.
Not that tone isn't vital either, it just appears to me "scratchiness" appears almost as a side product of putting speed and rhythm first, or "rhythm and timing" as NameChanges nailed it down. "I was so worried about tempo, rhythm, timing and lift that I started to sound scratchy!"
The hard part is not losing your tone. The hard part is elevating the tune over the tone. They don't have to lose their tone, they need to agonizingly realize there are vastly more important things to be concentrating on. We sacrifice tone for the tune, we sacrifice all for the tune. Heck, we sacrifice notes for the tune if it's got enough bpm's.
# Posted on November 24th 2007 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: How not to play Irish music
She doesn't stay in time, not even with the wrong rhythmic emphasis. Regardless of whether it's right or wrong (it's wrong) it simply isn't in time.
# Posted on November 24th 2007 by pavlf
Re: How not to play Irish music
"I was so worried about tempo, rhythm, timing and lift that I started to sound scratchy!"
"We sacrifice tone for the tune."
I'm glad you said that, SWFL. I didn't have the guts. And I haven't been playing (with) the fiddle all that long, so I sound scratchy whether I want to or not. I think it is true to say, though, that most traditional fiddlers don't invest a lot of time and effort in producing a particular tone, beyond being able to bow a clear, musical note - they develop their tone organically as they learn the music. (The best players, regardless of style or genre, are no doubt able to make fine adjustments to their tone as they choose.) Similary, I think a classical-violinist-turned-trad-fiddler will naturally 'lose' their classical tone (or acquire a more 'traditional' tone) by focusing on other aspects of their playing.
As for performing traditional music in public as a beginner (which was the original topic of this thread): Like it or not, it is quite a common thing. Musicians who have discovered the music on recordings but haven't yet discovered the joy of a good session often want some outlet for their playing. I played 'Irish Traditional' music in a band before I ever went to a session - and I was a d@µn sight worse than the lady in the video (I disappear into the floor when I listen back to the tapes). I'd never have got away with it in Ireland - and neither would they. But New Jersey isn't Connemara, remember.
# Posted on November 24th 2007 by granama
Re: How not to play Irish music
The URL of the poster is; http://www.youtube.com/LagansLove
There is a photo of the bodhran player.
They have this description on one clip;
LagansLove performs with Mick Mitsch singing, Linda O'Connell Harp, Aimee Morrill fiddle.
So it is possible on YouTube to send an email to the poster, Mick.
# Posted on November 24th 2007 by Tonya
Re: How not to play Irish music
"As for performing traditional music in public as a beginner (which was the original topic of this thread)"
I don't think that these guys are beginners really. If they were I'd be less inclined to criticize them. I think that they are good musicians who have all of the ability necessary to play it right but haven't done enough listening (at least in the case of the fidder).
There's nothing wrong with a beginner getting it wrong, we've all been there. But an accomplished classical player shouldn't come to trad and play it like it's learning a new piece of classical music. That's really the only thing that I'm critical of here, the musicianship isn't the problem.
# Posted on November 24th 2007 by Marklar
Re: How not to play Irish music
I took a look at some of their other clips and it's very clear that they know their instruments and are good musicians. But here's a really good example of the problem that I think that some of us are talking about below. Listen to the fiddler playing the butterfly. It's very very much played in the classical style...sounds beautiful and shows a lot of skill, but doesn't sound at all like it should:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=auc16ZH3dZg
Of all of them I think that I like hearing the bodhran player playing whistle most of all. I hate to keep picking on the fiddler but it's partly because she is such a good player, which makes me think that she ought to come at it with more of an understanding of the style.
# Posted on November 24th 2007 by Marklar
Re: How not to play Irish music
Sunnybear, my Suzuki teacher is working me through Book 4 right now - next year I get to learn Drowsy Maggie in Book 5
. So Book 5 is where the slow movement of the Vivaldi has got to - I wondered why it wasn't in Book 4 along with the rest of his opus 3 no 6.
# Posted on November 24th 2007 by lazyhound
Re: How not to play Irish music
"I don't think that these guys are beginners really."
They may not be beginners on their respective instruments, or to music a a whole. But I suspect they are relatively new to traditional music - at least, they haven't yet discovered how to make it work. (If they have been playing like that for 10 years, then they're probably doomed to eternal beginnerhood. But if they rally are good musicians, I can't see how that could be possible).
# Posted on November 24th 2007 by granama
Re: How not to play Irish music
That's it!
"a classical-violinist-turned-trad-fiddler will naturally 'lose' their classical tone (or acquire a more 'traditional' tone) by focusing on other aspects of their playing"
That's all it takes, worked for me. Now I can go back to cleaning the tone up without losing the "it" that makes "it" what "it" is.
Oh crap, we're back on that Zen thing again I see. [sigh]
# Posted on November 24th 2007 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: How not to play Irish music
it comes right after the Bach Cello suite that has been transcribed for violin...it is in Book 5, I think, because of the shifting (up to 5th position) and the intonation challenges it presents...it is not that terribly difficult..it is very beautiful..what I learned most from that piece was to listen to myself.
# Posted on November 24th 2007 by Sunnybear
Re: How not to play Irish music
Here you go, kids, the person you're picking apart: http://www.aimeeviolin.com/biography.html
Nowhere does it mention she plays ITM, and the closest reference is that she was a fiddler for English folk dances for five years. She's not promoting herself as an exponent of ITM or even an ITM artist. She plays in what appears to be some local group of friends that gave themselves a name and probably were invited to perform at some public event in their area. The bodhran player thought it would be fun to post it on YouTube. Little did he know...
# Posted on November 24th 2007 by Phantom Button
Re: How not to play Irish music
"But if they rally are good musicians, I can't see how that could be possible"
I can, if they haven't done enough listening and the fact that they are good musicians blinds them to the fact that they don't have the style down. Especially if the local audience doesn't know much about trad, which is highly likely.
And yes, I've had an email exchange with the guy who posted the video. You can't give constructive criticism behind someone's back. He was very nice and seemed to really want to know how to nail things down. He was so nice I felt a bit bad about being critical at all, but hey, if it helps them become a better band I don't mind being the bad guy.
# Posted on November 24th 2007 by Marklar
Re: How not to play Irish music
"She plays in what appears to be some local group of friends that gave themselves a name and probably were invited to perform at some public event in their area. The bodhran player thought it would be fun to post it on YouTube. Little did he know..."
They have a band, they perform live and post their videos on YouTube, and they have a web site with videos of several performances. They list their status on the web site as "unsigned," which I take as a sign that they aren't just kidding around. And we're supposed to feel bad for taking them seriously?
As opposed to what, condescending to them? I think it shows more respect to take them seriously and treat them as if they are taking their music seriously.
# Posted on November 24th 2007 by Marklar
Re: How not to play Irish music
Aside from the YouTube page I haven't found any website for them. I think "unsigned" might be a generic part of the YouTube page... but I'm not sure. What other options does it give you besides "unsigned"? "open for criticism" "ready to be picked apart"?
# Posted on November 24th 2007 by Phantom Button
Re: How not to play Irish music
You might be right about the "unsigned" bit, I didn't think of that, but I still think that they are serious. The link to the web site is above in Tonya's post; it's a YouTube site but many bands--including well established bands--use YouTube to promote their bands.
If they're just friends who get together to have fun and they hate me for criticizing them, oh well, but I think that they are serious. The bodrhan player certainly seemed open to constructive criticism and was very nice about it.
I really think that they have what it takes and just need to work on the style, so I don't feel bad about taking the chance at hurting their feelings if there's a chance that it will make them a better band. Sometimes it takes that to treat fellow musicians with repect.
# Posted on November 24th 2007 by Marklar
Re: How not to play Irish music
Bodhran not bodrhan...oh well I'm hardly the first to typo that one.
# Posted on November 24th 2007 by Marklar
Re: How not to play Irish music
Well, if they're playing in public you'd hope they had a fairly thick skin anyway. Everyone should do at least one gig at that roadhouse from The Blues Brothers where the band has to play behind reinforced chicken wire.
# Posted on November 24th 2007 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: How not to play Irish music
Rawhide!
# Posted on November 24th 2007 by wyogal
Re: How not to play Irish music
I think Turkey in the Straw would go over even better.
# Posted on November 24th 2007 by Marklar
Re: How not to play Irish music
Stand by your man......
# Posted on November 24th 2007 by wyogal
Re: How not to play Irish music
Bob's Country Bunker ~ roll tape
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-NJMOJcZM8
# Posted on November 24th 2007 by Tonya
Re: How not to play Irish music
Thank-you, Tonya!
# Posted on November 24th 2007 by wyogal
Re: How not to play Irish music
You could definitely call it "how not to accompany Irish music". The guitar isn't even in tune.
I agree that the fiddler is good but her rhythm is off (she isn't getting any help from the others, that's for sure). It feels like she's trying to get too many ornaments in when she can't play them fast enough. And what's with the music stand? She hasn't memorized the tunes?
# Posted on November 24th 2007 by kennedy
Re: How not to play Irish music
"What key?
A, good country key.
Rawhide in A!"
ROFL, I'd forgotten how funny that scene was
# Posted on November 24th 2007 by Marklar
Re: How not to play Irish music
Even leaving aside the rhythm, tone, choice of ornamentation, etc, the the description "fastest Drowsy Maggie on Planet Earth!!" makes clear these musicians' lack of exposure to ITM: go to any session, anywhere on Planet Earth, and you're almost guaranteed hear a rendition of Drowsy Maggie just as fast as that one.
# Posted on November 25th 2007 by Tall, Dark, and Mysterious
Re: How not to play Irish music
That's me on the bodhran
# Posted on November 25th 2007 by bodhran bliss
Re: How not to play Irish music
And say what you like, but the girl plays the fiddle a lot better than I do.
# Posted on November 25th 2007 by bodhran bliss
Re: How not to play Irish music
I hope that you understand that my crticism was aimed her style, not her skill. And it wasn't really meant to be mean, but to be constructive.
I've felt bad all day about contacting you--it really wasn't fun for me--but I'm not going to talk about how someone needs constructive critisism behind their back and not have the guts to actually offer it. Maybe that makes me a jerk, but I'd rather be a jerk than a hypocrite or coward. For what little it may be worth, my intentions were good and I really wasn't out to put anyone down.
I stand by everything I've said, except the stuff about tapping your foot in my first post--that was over the top and was meant for comedic effect, but it stopped being funny to me right after I posted it. That was a bit much and was obviously exaggerated.
# Posted on November 25th 2007 by Marklar
Re: How not to play Irish music
The late Sean Maguire was classically trained so that puts paid to the argument that classically trained violin don't make good ITM players. It's all in the genes you see. As for the Utube clip - well the excitement I felt when she upped the tempo for Drowsy Maggie' I nearly fell off me zimmer frame. I'm also pretty sure that the guitar used to play with Metalica, or maybe it was The Grateful Dead
# Posted on November 25th 2007 by Free Reed
Re: How not to play Irish music
"I think a classical-violinist-turned-trad-fiddler will naturally 'lose' their classical tone (or acquire a more 'traditional' tone) by focusing on other aspects of their playing"
Now where does that leave me, I wonder. A classical cellist who started playing the fiddle 7 years ago and has played nothing but ITM on the instrument in that time, and is now having violin lessons from a Suzuki-trained teacher who plays classical and folk, and plays in a band. I must be the original one-man awkward squad.
# Posted on November 25th 2007 by lazyhound
Re: How not to play Irish music
Bliss, are you classically trained on the bodhran?
# Posted on November 25th 2007 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: How not to play Irish music
BB, were you joking? I thought so at first, but I didn't want to assume just in case. But you don't seem to be on the right continent.
But lay my mind to rest; I don't regret contacting those guys but I hate to think that I've offended, so please put my mind to rest if you aren't that bodhran player that I contacted today.
Not that I put more stock in the feelings of board members versus other musicians, but it was hard to try to offer constructive criticism to a complete stranger so I'd like to know if I've caused offense. It was a pretty difficult thing to do.
# Posted on November 25th 2007 by Marklar
Re: How not to play Irish music
Didn't you realise it was bliss? You're in big trouble now. He's a black belt in Tae Kwon Bo Rawn.
# Posted on November 25th 2007 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: How not to play Irish music
"BB, were you joking? I thought so at first, but I didn't want to assume just in case. But you don't seem to be on the right continent."
~~~
Try right planet. hahahaha
# Posted on November 25th 2007 by Phantom Button
Re: How not to play Irish music
Bliss is always joking Screetch, at least I hope he is, if not he's the most deluded guy on the planet
# Posted on November 25th 2007 by Worldwide Pants
Re: How not to play Irish music
Heh, I kind of thought so, but it's been on my mind all day. My email exchanges with the guy were polite and positive, but it's hard to tell a musician that you don't know that they are playing it all wrong. But since I was criticizing them here I felt obligated to bring it to them, where it could do some good.
# Posted on November 25th 2007 by Marklar
Re: How not to play Irish music
"The late Sean Maguire was classically trained so that puts paid to the argument that classically trained violin don't make good ITM players"
Free Reed if you look at one of my earlier posts you'll see how I mention people like Sean Maguire and Paddy Glackin and their classical training. I don't think anyone doesn't think that a classically trained player has the ability to play trad successfully, they just have to dedicate a lot of time to it to do it right, Sean Maguire and Paddy Glackin certainly did, indeed they spent a lot more time on trad than classical.
I know a few young american classically trained players who are now very good at Irish music but they'll be the first to admit that it took them a lot of time to adjust, one of them is a regular poster on this site but I'm not going to name her. I will say that she comes over to Ireland a lot and learns from master fiddle players and this has obviously helped her playing immensely.
If the lady in the youtube clip had the same dedication I'm sure she'd become a brilliant trad player. Until such time as she does I hope she thinks again before playig Irish music in public and allowing her mate to post her performances of Irish music on youtube!!!
# Posted on November 25th 2007 by Worldwide Pants
Re: How not to play Irish music
For what it's worth, the guy who posted the video acknowledged the fact that they weren't playing together very well and knew that they had it wrong there.
That's not such a big deal, and that can come together with practice. But the lack of proper rhythmn with the melody instrument isn't something that will get better with practice and will likely get worse, so that's what I spoke to him about. If the backers are a bit off, so what, they can fix that.
But having the fiddle in the wrong style is fatal and unfixable unless they know about it and do something about it.
# Posted on November 25th 2007 by Marklar
Re: How not to play Irish music
Oh, and the bodhran and guitar players play in sessions but nothing was said about the fiddle (violin) player. She's probably the best musician in the lot and ironically the biggest problem, maybe due to the fact that she's a good musician and no one wants to tell her that she's got something wrong.
# Posted on November 25th 2007 by Marklar
Re: How not to play Irish music
Thank you Frisbee.
And Screetch, you have offended me now.
# Posted on November 25th 2007 by bodhran bliss
Re: How not to play Irish music
Sorry BB, but I've had a couple of beers now and I no longer care.
# Posted on November 25th 2007 by Marklar
Re: How not to play Irish music
Have you ever heard John Joe, or Ringo, or Tommy Hates or Mercier?
Well, I am none of those and I am the best in the world.
Now, is that me on that video?
# Posted on November 25th 2007 by bodhran bliss
Re: How not to play Irish music
I think I'm going to have to get more beer to keep up with you.
# Posted on November 25th 2007 by Marklar
Re: How not to play Irish music
And I liked your "on another planet" comment Jack.
# Posted on November 25th 2007 by bodhran bliss
Re: How not to play Irish music
OK. It is me.
I have been leading a false existence since I appeared here. You didn't really believe all that "best in the world" bit?
Do you not think I am very good though?
# Posted on November 25th 2007 by bodhran bliss
Re: How not to play Irish music
I was shocked to think you could be that bodhran player. It made me think that I had bodhran playing all wrong and that you were on another plane of excellence that I couldn't possibly understand.
But I guess I was wrong. But I still think that you are the best. No, I know that you are the best. And it's not just the beer talking. At least not while the beer lasts.
# Posted on November 25th 2007 by Marklar
Re: How not to play Irish music
When I listened to the YouTube clip, I heard someone playing some traditional dance tunes in a non traditional style. Perhaps it could be called Suzuki style, perhaps not. I found the clarity of the melody interesting, it was fun to hear each an every note so clearly. I missed the implied harmonies that make me sit up and take notice when a good ITM fiddler takes the lead. I also thought that this was not an effective way to create dance music, a bit too fast for my toes. It may be pointless to critisize her for failing to accomplish what she never tried to do.
# Posted on November 25th 2007 by toumi
Re: How not to play Irish music
"It may be pointless to critisize her for failing to accomplish what she never tried to do."
She's in a band that performs Irish tunes. What else would she be trying to do? They call it a "celtic" band, but unfortunately that's pretty common in the States and usually means Irish trad...there's not much of a notion here that there's any other kind of music made by celts.
I agree that her playing is very good, in its own way. But it's classical, not ITM. It's very much playing trad like it's a classical piece, and as someone who had to make the rather hard transition from classical to trad it rubs me the wrong way.
# Posted on November 25th 2007 by Marklar
Re: How not to play Irish music
I think we’re taking this all too seriously. It’s just someone’s home video of loved ones playing in a little classroom of some 20 people, mostly kids it seems. I don’t think it’s meant it to be a concert for the masses.
We’ve probably all been to far too many “traditional” sessions in pubs that were infected with terrible timing, intonation to make the ears bleed, and just plain badly-played tunes - especially as the pints add up. I don’t see anyone here whining about those players.
As for the idea that knowing something about classical music automatically means that one cannot play traditional fiddle, well that’s just big pile of bologna.
Do you really think, for example, that the musical abilities of the members of Solas, including Winnie with her classical fiddle background, make them not worthy of playing Irish tunes?
Surely no one posting here sounded very great when they were learning to play. In fact, I’d go so far as to say the most players would sound no where near as good as they think they do if they were removed them the environment of the rumbling session of 10 inarticulate players in a noisy pub, full of loud drunks who don’t care about the music, and then record them in a sterile classroom with a small cheap microphone to be played back on tiny computer speakers.
And what’s on the music stand - music, lyrics, playllists, pizza menus? Who cares? Instead of slamming players we think are inferior to us, we should be listening and learning from the truly great musicians. Now that would benefit us all.
# Posted on November 25th 2007 by SoCalMan
Re: How not to play Irish music
Yep - far too seriously - THIS is what we should be taking seriously
http://educate-yourself.org/ct/#intro
# Posted on November 25th 2007 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: How not to play Irish music
Lots of strange and interesting stuff there,KML.
I'm familiar with most.
IMO,Marcel Leroux has been comprehensively discredited.
In the interests of balance,I suggest http://www.realclimate.org/
for the best informed discussion
# Posted on November 25th 2007 by wolfbird
Re: How not to play Irish music
Good idea... let's get into a heated Global Warming debate so that this thread will get tossed into the cyberbin.
# Posted on November 25th 2007 by Phantom Button
Re: How not to play Irish music
You're right,Phantom Button.Let's not.Mea culpa.
# Posted on November 25th 2007 by wolfbird
Re: How not to play Irish music
One conclusion to draw from all this- the technology that enables some fairly intimate and innocuous event to enter the wider public domain and be broadcast worldwide needs to be handled with care. I, for one, shan't knowingly be advertising my musical prowess on YouTube for a few decades yet!
# Posted on November 25th 2007 by P-K
Re: How not to play Irish music
Sounds more like a Scottish fiddler than Irish, to me.
# Posted on November 25th 2007 by geoffwright
Re: How not to play Irish music
That's the whole point here. Who put this on Youtube. If it was the musicians, it is worrying.
# Posted on November 25th 2007 by bodhran bliss
How not to play Irish music (on YouTube)
I like this bit from the YouTube Community Guidelines;
YouTube is for the Community
Remember that this is your community! Each and every user of YouTube makes the site what it is, so don't be afraid to dig in and get involved!
* Have fun with the site. There's a lot here to see, and lots of folks making amazing stuff—one of them might be you! Equipment's getting cheaper and easier to use all the time, so dive in and enjoy.
* Let folks know what you think. Feedback's part of the experience, and when done with respect, can be a great way to make friends, share stories, and make your time on YouTube richer. So leave comments, rate videos, make your own responses to videos that affect you, enter contests of interest—there's a lot going on and a lot of ways to participate here.
# Posted on November 25th 2007 by Tonya
Re: How not to play Irish music
"That's the whole point here. Who put this on Youtube. If it was the musicians, it is worrying."
It was the musicians. I've contacted one of them, and for the record I was polite and complementary about it, but also brought up a point about style.
These guys seem serious and want to improve.
# Posted on November 26th 2007 by Marklar
Re: How not to play Irish music
I agree. The violinist is a highly trained and experienced professional player and teacher, and it goes without saying that she would wish to improve and get to grips with the Irish style. I think she would also realise that it is most certainly not a five-minute job!
# Posted on November 26th 2007 by lazyhound
Re: How not to play Irish music
So the bodhran player thought it would be a good idea to post a home video of their gig on YouTube. I still don't get the impression that the fiddler thought it would be fun because her playing would end up getting picked apart on an ITM specific website somewhere. I doubt the bodhran player himself thought so either let alone the back-up player. They don't appear to be promoting themselves as experts of Irish trad and they haven't asked for any advice from the public at large. It still feels like bad form to me to criticize them the way some of you have... sorry.
# Posted on November 26th 2007 by Phantom Button
Re: How not to play Irish music
As I don't have broadband ( cue for a Bateman cartoon - The man who said he didn't have broadband ! ) I couldn't be bothered to wait while the whole video downloaded.
Still, I'm baffled.
How could that lady have been playing folk dance music, even english FDM, especially for actual dancing, for 5 years and not have picked up any of the rhythm and the swing ?
It just goes to show why too much exposure to classical music training is bad for your music.
# Posted on November 26th 2007 by Guernsey Pete
Re: How not to play Irish music
PB, I like what you're saying because you're defending fellow musicians and I can't fault that.
But look, this isn't a home video. They have a band, they perform, and they are posting performances on YouTube. Are you sure that they didn't post the videos precisely to get critical feedback? The guy who posted the videos, at least, certainly seems open to feedback.
Again, I kind of like what you're saying because I know that you are railing against anonymous blow-hards who just want to kick some newbie to the curb out of some feeling of superiority. But are you sure that that's what's going on here?
# Posted on November 26th 2007 by Marklar
Re: How not to play Irish music
When I researched the gal playing fiddle I couldn't find anywhere that she personally promoted herself as any sort of Irish trad fiddler at all. For that reason to have her playing caught on amateur video posted on YouTube and then torn apart by ITM aficionados just doesn't feel right to me. If you guys really want to explore your hypothesis about classically trained ITM fiddlers I think you first need to find a professional player who promotes them self as an expert in ITM styles who started out as a classical player to use as your example. In this thread all you did was beat up some unsuspecting fiddler.
# Posted on November 26th 2007 by Phantom Button
How not to post Irish music
More to the point might be;
'who on this thread is a member of the YouTube community with posting representative of Irish tradition music?'
Probably most of you but let's see the proof. It's pudding as they say.
# Posted on November 26th 2007 by Tonya
Re: How not to play Irish music
here is my sons pipe bands' "Irish Set"
he is the little guy to the left of the bass drum
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-TiHypMITcA
# Posted on November 26th 2007 by Sunnybear
Re: How not to play Irish music
Here are videos I've made representative of Irish tradition and which I've posted on YouTube:
Mrs Crotty Festival, Kilrush (August 2004) - Set Dancers in The Square:
Plain Set (Figure 1) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a_r23E6j4rA
Plain Set (Figure 2) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0j7WLKiuJR4
Plain Set (Figure 3) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ltHJZMJs4Xk
Plain Set (Figure 4) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xUAF9N9yzEc
Plain Set (Figures 5,6) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6bvf5qVeyLk
Clare Lancers (Figure 1) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CfswZfaA7OM
Clare Lancers (Figure 2) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zQxklmAd4hI
Clare Lancers (Figure 3) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BjiMBHwmE3s
Clare Lancers (Figure 4) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fx54s9XeWV0
Clare Lancers (Figure 5) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cUTQMwdEGR0
Cashel Set (Figure 1) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AyX9ih2HMI0
Cashel Set (Figures 2,3) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EpRj7XLHxw4
Cashel Set (Figure 4) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S6ozZTNC1d4
Cashel Set (Figure 5) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82Lx6qsHM8Q
Cashel Set (Figure 6) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yxqt_4TvGAQ
Swinford (Co Mayo) (August 2005):
Uillean piper playing in Swinford http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2d66qTq4w6s
Uillean piper playing in Swinford's Famine Cemetery http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OkhyQA0xpns
# Posted on November 26th 2007 by lazyhound
Re: How not to play Irish music
Perhaps a simple; http://www.youtube.com/user/lazyhound
# Posted on November 26th 2007 by Tonya
Re: How not to play Irish music
Tonya, yes, I considered that option - but what if I ever decide to delete those links?...
Anyway, I came back to this thread to mention what I'd forgotten to add - namely that my wife was one of the dancers in those set dances in Kilrush.
Also, I have a couple of still photos on Flickr of me playing the fiddle, but no matter how hard you listen you can't quite catch those incredibly fast rolls
Phantom, there's a professional classical violinist and teacher in Bristol (she's played in some of the major UK orchestras) who took the trouble a few years ago to spend a couple of years in Limerick learning the fiddle and doing a degree in Irish music at the uni there. She's since taught ITM to a respectable number of players in Bristol. I don't think she's a session.org member so I won't mention her name here, but I'll email you tomorrow.
# Posted on November 26th 2007 by lazyhound
Re: How not to play Irish music
Now that this topic seems to have run it's course perhaps it's time for a summary....
Why did I post this video? Some people have accused me of being unfair or elitist in picking on the players like this but here's why I posted it.
I was on youtube searching for Paddy Fahey tunes and this video was one of the first things that came up. As soon as I saw it I knew it just wasn't right so I decided to post it on here to see what other people thought.
It's obvious to me that the musicians on the clip were oblivious to the fact that they just weren't getting it right. I know many people new to trad come visit this site and know that many of them are classical musicians. I though that by posting this video and explaining what was wrong with it then it could be enlightening for these players and others.
It seems that most people agree that the interpretation is missing the right rhythm, ornamentation, lift and backing. The violinist certainly has excellent technique for classical music but if she wants to perform Irish music it's obvious to most of us that she has a lot to learn, similarly the other musicians have a lot to learn also.
Remember this video was posted by the musicians themselves, they are a group who describe themselves as playing Celtic music. They perform the music live.
So what's the harm in constructively criticising these things in a public arena? After all they posted the video on youtube for the world to see..
I posted this for the good of the music more than anything because if the music is being played and broadcast publically then surely when it is not right it needs to be pointed out, otherwise other people without the knowledge might think that this is the right way to play the music and they will learn it like this and others will learn it from them and so on until a very skewed version of the music develops.
This is not a case of stylistic freedom, I'm all for players who are well versed in the music going off in unique styles. This is a case of musicians of a good level who misunderstand the music on a fundamental level. They haven't got the rhythm, the lift or the ornamentation anywhere near right. These things are so fundamental to the music that without them it simply isn't Irish music.
It's important for those of us who love the music to ensure that the fundamental qualities that make Irish music what it is don't get lost due to musicians taking the music, adapting it and publically broadcasting it without actually learning it properly first.
I apologise if by posting this I offended anyone but remember the people in this video posted this on youtube themselves and for that reason I believe I was well within my right to post this discussion.
# Posted on November 26th 2007 by Worldwide Pants
Re: How not to play Irish music
I mist add that the classical violinist and teacher in Bristol who learned the fiddle in Ireland said that it took her two years to eradicate her classical style from her fiddle playing, thus effectively making her bilingual in both musical languages. So that shows it can be done, but it takes time and dedication.
# Posted on November 26th 2007 by lazyhound
Re: How not to play Irish music
"must"
# Posted on November 26th 2007 by lazyhound
Re: How not to play Irish music
I think she's doing well, for a classical player who is obviously somewhat new to Irish music.
As someone pointed out above, she seems to be playing a version based on a detailed transcription of a traditional player, as the ornamentatin doesn't seem to flow naturally from her interaction with the tune. Rather the ornamentation seems to be built into the version which she is faithfully performing.
After more listening to trad players, and playing along with others at sessions, she will probably develop into a good trad-sounding player. Suzuki-trained violinists are like that- they have great ears and soon can mimick pretty much any style they are exposed to.
# Posted on November 26th 2007 by Richard D Cook
Critical premise
"otherwise other people without the knowledge might think that this is the right way to play the music and they will learn it like this and others will learn it from them and so on until a very skewed version of the music develops."
taken from frisbee's post above. It is the premise on which he stands. It is similar to the domino theory. I thought it might warrant repetition.
# Posted on November 26th 2007 by Tonya
Re: How not to play Irish music
Think I'd rather let the dominos fall where they may.
# Posted on November 26th 2007 by grego
Re: How not to play Irish music
"Even Paddy Glackin and Sean Maguire who had classical training (and I'm sure both knew how to produce a beautiful 'classical' tone."
They both had very little classical training really. We have no evidence whatever that they could produce a good classical tone, or good Irish music!
# Posted on November 28th 2007 by neddiescotus
Re: How not to play Irish music
Not true, I know from the horses mouth that Glackin was sent to classical violin lessons for a lot of his childhood.
# Posted on November 29th 2007 by Worldwide Pants
Re: How not to play Irish music
Wince! What more can i say? I know i go on about ornaments, and rhythm. Perhaps this is one reason why.!
>>I think she's doing well, for a classical player who is obviously somewhat new to Irish music>>
I cant agree, there are numerous basic errors which would not be tolerated in any musical form! let alone 'classical'!
IT might seem harsh to critisise an individual, but we are simply using this film to point out pottential and actual problem. After all I am sure she recognises the 'faults' though quite how she let the clip get on you tube is beyond me!
She has a nice tone, and her intonation is good. but there were both blatent rhythmic errors as well as subtle 'misses'. Rhythm is a case for absolute precision, without that precision, it simply evaporates.
I am sure with a bit more work and understanding she could be a good fiddler, in what ever genre she chooses and i wish her the best of luck.
# Posted on November 29th 2007 by jig
Re: How not to play Irish music
Hello! Not had a look here for a while. How Not To Play Irish Music.
Stop having a go at the fiddle-player. It's the bodhrán-player's fault! For some reason, he doesn't seem to have the "swing", either. That would have helped.
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# Posted on December 7th 2007 by greenman