I have a CD titled 'Music of the Irish Celts' featuring Uillean Pipes played by Dicky Deegan accompanied by various instruments including the Didgeridoo.
There has been much discussion about the place in ITM of the bodhran and the intrusion of other instruments 'foreign' to the tradition such as bazouki,electronic synthesizers,even the ukulele,with folks arguing for maintenance of authentic tradition.
I'm curious to know whether anyone would accept that the Didgeridoo has any place,on the grounds that it is replacing an authentic instrument that has been long lost to the tradition,the horn featured on sound samples here http://homepage.eircom.net/~bronzeagehorns/sounds.html
The Canadian brother/sister band Fiddlehaus employs the digeridoo. Most of their tunes are their originals, but they're heavily influenced by ITM, and the digeridoo really works well.
I have heard it done well once - for one slow air, with a skilled guy who knew his didgeridoo was in the same key. I also have a nice recording where (I think it's a Sharon Shannon CD) uses a didgeridoo for a nice effect with a slow march.
However, I would simply hate it if some silly git tried to toot on it all night long in a session on every tune. It's right up there with djembes and all the other kooky noisemakers that typically wreck a session inside of two sets.
The first 'Irish' band I played in featured a didgeridoo. It happened to be pitched in D, so it worked nicely as a drone on the more pipey tunes. The didgeridooist also played a number of other instruments and sang, so it was used sparingly.
Dicky Deegan is an excellent piper. My first thought was, "What's a good traditional musician like that doing messing about with didges and synths?" (...and the title of the CD sounds a bit soppy and romantic). But I haven't heard it yet.
In its current form, yes - and it is an instrument that many people envisage emblazoned with stars and stripes. But it was first brought to North America by West African slaves - and there are still basically similar instruments to be found in West Africa, known by similar names.
You might call Hop High Ladies an American tune, but it doesn't take much to recognize it as Mrs. MacLeod of Raasay.
The banjo was (I think) developed by African slaves in America, as an instrument to imitate the trad stringed instruments of Africa (the khalam from Sénégal and Mali comes to mind...
"The banjo was (I think) developed by African slaves in America, as an instrument to imitate the trad stringed instruments of Africa"
Yes - Perhaps it is oversimplifying things to say that the *banjo* was brought from Africa. The idea of a stringed instrument with an animal skin for a soundboard came to America with African slaves.
Yeah, so then West African slaves brought banjos (or memories of them) to America, which then found their way to Ireland somehow. And wasn't Australia colonized by Irish prisoners? Perhaps they're finally bring didgeridoos back to Ireland.
It's not the origin of the instrument, it's the sound of it. An Italian fiddle and a German flute playing Polish polkas and Austrian waltzes as well as Scandinavian reels and Scottish jigs* all go nicely to make up "Irish Traditional Music." The African/American/African-American banjo fits well into this sound. The didgeridoo? Well, all I can say is "didgeridon't".
The didgeridoo is a true traditional instrument, and should preserve its status by remaining aloft from a "tradition" that tolerates mandolins, banjos, bazoukis and the like.
Thanks for that link Tonya.Fascinating.Obviously,there are the Aboriginal equivalents of Dow and Llig exhorting the newbies to 'Learn the tunes!' and no doubt similar heated debates about what's trad and what's not I can just imagine a young fella walking up to their campfire with a set of Uillean pipes and causing horror and outrage amongst the elders and purists....
I can see that some instruments from different cultures and countries can be absorbed into a tradition if they are basically compatible.But my question was partly concerned with ancient indigenous Irish instruments,those various kinds of prehistoric and mediaeval horns.
If 'traditional' is defined by excluding new gadgets (like,say, electronic keyboards) does it also have a cut-off date that would exclude the most ancient instruments,even if they were once native to the land?
I've a benefit album for the family of Simon Melia, a great box player from Melbourne, which includes at least one track with Didge & Sticks (similar to the Bones) accompaniment and it works really well. It would get too much on every tune, but in this case it gives an interesting 'local' spin on immigrant music.
I hope nobody thinks that I am suggesting or encouraging didges at sessions.What I find fascinating is the astonishing range of expression that the instrument has,(as demonstrated by the samples at the link I just posted) and the conjecture that the horns of ancient Ireland could have had a similar range.At least,i don't see any obvious reason why they wouldn't have been capable of producing as much variety.I wonder why they vanished?
Couple of observations, folks, which might help:
.Australia was colonised mostly by English prisoners for a good few years. Not all but the vast majority. Irish prisoners sent to Australia after 1798 were many of the supporters and leaders of the revolution in that year. We actually had another attempted revolution in the Parramatta/Castle Hill (Vinegar Hill) area in the years after that, and many of them were then gunned down by the redcoats.
Didges are rhythmic. (They happen to go really well with tublas - Indian music type rhythms.) I have heard the excellent aboriginal singers, dancers and didge players in Sydney (Circular Quay), and listened carefully to the timing of the music. It isn't the western norms. So when it is put into Irish music timing it doesn't have the same effect. They sound nice in the situation, but (to me, as an Australian) it itsn't quite there.
Didges sound really great in the Australian outback.
I have played uilleann pipes with Australian indigenous players and dancers and they (the musicians) really identify with them.
Many Australian indigenous people have Irish surnames (and descent).
I've just arrived in Canberra this afternoon for the weekend.
Canberra is the national capital, and happens, in the ancient indigenous context to be the place of meeting. What a beautiful place it is, and very Australian.
And here’s an extract from a television interview last night in Australia. Jon Muir does solo walking trips across the Australian deserts, Antarctic treks, and other seriously dangerous stuff, which seem to nearly kill him each time. Obviously very tough, but a gentle bloke as well. He's reading from his diary entry as requested by the interviewer. See what he says about the music where there are no players. This is fairly commonly known about in parts of Australia. Does it have any parallel in Ireland? I’m sure there’d be stories no one is prepared to talk about. I wonder what tunes you'd hear.
Jon Muir: …this is from um the walk I’ve just completed. OK, “It happened again last night. An abrupt awakening when I knew instantly what had jolted me from sleep. This time there was no inclination to try and find out where it was coming from because I believed there was no physical explanation for the sound I was hearing. So instead, I listened and absorbed it. Just as I had heard before well on the traverse of Australia, voices chanting, stamping feet, clapping sticks. The unmistakeable sound of a corroboree. Everyday I see evidence of their occupation of the land and feel their presence. Having experienced this before it no longer seems strange to hear their celebration. It’s comforting. I looked up at the stars and gently fall into my usual solid, deep sleep.”
Andrew Denton: And was that a dream, a hallucination? Do you know what that was?
Jon Muir: Um I think, I think I was hearing voices from the past. And I’ve heard that before and not actually really spoke to too many people about it. But on the drive home something very interesting happened, and that was, we stopped in at a mate of mine who lives out there in the outback, Aboriginal bloke, and he had a mate of his over who does a lot of cattle work and spends a lot of time out in the middle of nowhere. And he said to me, we were having a bit of a yarn about this walk I’d just done and he said “Does the desert ever speak to you?” And I said “Yeah, it does.” And he said “Have you heard the corroborees?” And I said, “Yes. Twice.” And he said “I heard one once with two mates and he heard exactly that same thing.” I got out of my sleeping, I thought I’ve got to go and check this out and I got out of my sleeping bag and followed this sound and there was just nothing out there.
Hello DD.Thanks for the contribution.yes,I read this when you posted it a couple of days ago.Do you want more comments?
My view is that there is nothing whatsoever surprising about Muir's experience.If I remember correctly,a survey a few years ago in the UK claimed that three quarters of those interviewed had stories to tell of approximately similar 'odd' experiences at some time in their lives.In many cultures around the world people have expected to have such experiences.
The reason that you,and others,think Muir's story is peculiar is because you have bought into the euro-american mainstream model of reality which gets indoctrinated into us by the education system.It's a philosophical model derived from Enlightenment science plus materialism,industrialism,capitalism,and other influences,and IMO,is profoundly and fundamentally wrong.It's a model which claims that the world is just a sort of machine composed of inert 'stuff' and that any spiritual aspects are the result of some sort of pathological delusion.It's a view that's been comprehensively demolished by many thinkers but it persists because it is politically convenient and suits those who have no respect for anything except money.It means that the planet and all its inhabitants can be seen as nothing more than ccommodities to be exploited and abused in anyway that is convenient.
If you think about it,the division between 'real' and 'hallucination' is nonsensical.Imagine yourself on your death bed,reviewing the totality of your lifetime.All that you will recall will be experiences of many and various sorts.You might even find that a movie had a major effect.Is a movie 'real'? It's just flickering light projected onto a screen,yet a good one can make a powerful impact.All that we have are experiences of various qualities.There are books and websites recounting thousands and thousands of stories like Muir's.
Wow, wolfbird! Yep, it is so easy to dismiss those cultures, usually extremely long surviving, that are based on spiritualism instead of civilisation. The civilised logic discounts these cultures as primative, but it is actually the so called civilised that are the blinkered ones. It is civilisation that is unsustainable very long term, whereas, communing with the Dreamtime Ancestors and gathering from the land just might be a more sustainable way. We need to listen.
Clear Drops,you like? I think my views are usually considered eccentric,but the madness of the mainstream,so called 'civilisation', is going to cause the extinction of all of us.
For the conventional economics that governments follow,it makes perfect sense to trash the planet as fast as possible,because it maximizes returns on investment,which is what all shareholders want.I say,fight back! "It's the ECOLOGY,stoopid!"
No, I don't think Muir's experience is peculiar at all, wolfbird. Many do, no doubt. I find it interesting that Muir himself said that he had been reluctant to tell people about it, so he said it anyway on a national broadcast.
Civilisation may well cause the extinction of all of us. I have a feeling the planet will reinvent itself though.
> I can just imagine a young fella walking up to their campfire with a set of Uillean pipes and causing horror and outrage among the elders and purists...wolfie.
That's not my impression of how they would react at all. On the contrary, they seem to me to be very accepting and interested in uillean pipes. You see, as has been said above, it is the ITM professional musicians and others that are seeking to include the didge in Irish music. Personally, I find it interesting, but I'm not so sure it's a great fit. I notice, as far as I can see in Australia, that the indigenous didge players don't go out of their way to include uilleann pipes at their sessions.
Dicky Deegan,the great player that he is, and others, I think are drawing some interesting comparisons by including the didge in ITM, and to those not used to the didge, it might have an attraction. I just find it a bit out of context, is all, because it sounds to me like what they are getting the didge to do in ITM, doesn't seem to allow the didge to do full justice to its genre in that context. Maybe the ancient celtic horn that wolfbird points out might be a better choice. Has anyone tried that? Try it.
Did you check out the debate and differing opinions,DD,and the desire some have to keep their tradition intact and undiluted ?
You "have a feeling" ? Do you think then,that your personal feeling is any sort of reliable guide as to what the Earth may or may not do?
"Try it." Not sure what you're suggesting to try.The Bronze Age horn? Suggest you try it yourself.And be sure to come back and tell us all how you got on,eh.Thanks for your thoughts.
Wolfie, I have no doubt that indigenous Australians would really love to keep their tradition intact and undiluted, if that's what you're saying.
Do I think that my personal feeling is any sort of reliable guide as to what the Earth may or may not do? - For me, it's a guide, yes. A guide is a guide.
I'm not into the bronze age horn, wolfie. You're the one suggesting it might be better than the didge for ITM. I tend to agree. I have a feeling you might be right, mind you, that's a guide only. You might be better qualified to provide the findings, if your views about the didge are any guide.
Great craic. This is about as subtle as a pipe band at a corroboree.
DD,that's not what i'm saying.I was asking you,if you had checked out the views,the views of indigenous Australians,as illustrated on the website posted above.I get the impression you have not.
I have never suggested either the didge or the various ancient horns be incorporated into ITM.I think it is fascinating that Ireland once had an instrument,producing a sound roughly corresponding to the didge.I wanted to hear the views of folks on this site.Thanks for yours.
Wolfbird, I have seen the views expressed at the site, and they are exactly what I would expect the indigenous Australian didge players to say. They sound to me not dissimilar to views I've seen and heard expressed about the difference between ITM played by people born in Ireland and raised in the tradition, and those not.
If professional or other ITM players want to include the didge in their recordings/playing they are clearly free to do so. But I do think there is much more to the playing of a didge to what they are *limited* to in ITM. That doesn't really do a great deal of justice to what they are about.
One of the comments at the site is about "inspiration from the environment". Just so. If the didge is about being a conduit for inspiration between the people and the land, I'm not sure that can be reflected in a limited backing in an ITM recording. Sure, it might serve as an introduction to the didge to those who haven't heard it before, or are mildly interested, but it isn't the whole deal. The didge needs to be given its own space to really be understood in the fullest sense.
I just think we need to be careful about what could be seen as "cultural appropriation" of the didge, and then delivering to listeners an out-of-context, limited view of the instrument, and then generate negative views about it.
If we want to fairly appreciate the didge, I have a feeling we need to understand the land, the stories and the environment from which it comes, not just depend on the impression given by it being deigned to be included in ITM. Are we really qualified to comment on it fairly if that is our only exposure to it.
Maybe find an instrument like the bronze age horn that might have a more ready context. Or not.
Yes, I understand your environmental angle completely Duijera. The didge is synonymous with heat, silence, space
song of cicada in the middle of the day, massive fly like creatures colliding with unsuspecting flesh while taking shelter under the stringybark, staring out at the still, baked, brilliance of the landscape. No physical threats but those of nature itself , appearing at wide sporadic intervals just to remind you you're alone.
Being able to articulate my reaction to the sound of the didge
so easily has just made me also aware of how little I know about the enviromental ties of Irish Music. A thread perhaps to
put to the Native Irish contingent?
I thought the thread was about the use of the didge in ITM, as the sound of it resembles some ancient Irish horn.....
I didn't think the thread was about the value of the didge in general or the value one places on it soley as a result of only hearing it played in ITM....
chuneboi, how about sending your comments to the indigenous website provided above, to get some feedback from the aboriginal players. Mate!
I guess that a lot of the native Irish players would indeed have a lot to say about the environmental ties of Irish Music. Put it to them why don't you?
Yes, wyogal, threads seem to turn into tangled webs sometimes don't they.
Hi wyogal,I asked the question pretty much in line with what you just have said,but I'm flexible and don't object if the topic drifts,because I'm interested in learning,and new angles can be sometimes be illuminating.
I'm mystified why duijera dubh placed his whole thread topic from a few days ago onto this page,because it's not common etiquette.
However it's quite interesting so I don't object to the distraction.
Perhaps he's like to rephrase his contribution to clarify whatever point it is that he has in mind.
Nah, wolfbird, I think I'm all rephrased out right now. I'd say most people would have got the drift.
And yes, wolfie, I guess we're all learners here. I hope you've learned something from the thread, if not about the didge - or at least more than you knew before about it.
I will await the playing of the bronze age horn by some brave soul at an ITM session.
I wouldn't agree with you there, wolfo. Don't be selling yourself short at all. I think you've changed some perspectives already.
Think about it all maybe; esp. re-read that indigenous website - a few times, and let yourself assimilate those comments. That site's magic for getting a really good understanding of the issues that have been talked about.
I've just returned actually from a photographic exhibition of Aboriginal sacred sites at the National Library here. It was absolutely great. The guy has spent 30 years travelling around collecting and recording these. (One of the photos was, by agreement with the tribal elders, behind curtains, access *restricted to men* as it said. Wow.)
Here's a nice extract from the exhibition, by the author:
"I thought back to what I was told on more than one occasion by Aboriginal men, as they showed me their special places. They said the energy of centuries of the ritual use of ochre, blood, story, dance, song and secrecy was still there, but is was now *in the ground*, under the ceremonial place. It was dangerous to try, but that energy could be reactivated if it was done *the right way*. Whether this is true or not, it changed my perceptions, and all the caged and contained places I photographed are now not quite as they seem."
That's where didges sound really good - and especially when they're telling a story and accompanying dance and chant. That's the context.
Playing uilleann pipes or ITM in places like that, while the sentiments and symbolisms of doing so might be appreciated, in the end it sounds and feels, to me anyway, a bit out of place, you can probably imagine. To me, that's a bit of the same feeling when I hear didges played in ITM.
It's right there in the last paragraph, mate.
If that's not clear enough, then I'll have to leave it to you.
No one else seems to be missing the point, unless I'm mistaken. Good luck to you.
Forgive me,Duijera Dubh,but I posted the topic at the top of the page,concerning Irish traditional music and various instruments which have entered that tradition....erm,nothing that i mentioned connects to Australian landscape or what instruments are best for playing in the Australian landscape,so the relevance of what you've said evades me.
If you want to discuss THAT topic,you don't need me to tell you how to set up a new thread.
The impression you've given me is that you don't have a musical culture of your own so you attempt to co-opt the tradition of the Irish on the one hand,and of the indigenous Australians on the other,and glue them together.Both the Irish and Aboriginals who try to preserve their traditional culture might find such a mixture objectionable.I'd have some sympathy for that view.
However,cross-cultural blending has been going on forever and can lead to positive new genres,rock and roll being an example.The threat nowadays comes because of the internet and other media and easy travel means that cultural changes happen so much faster than ever before.The pressures on minority cultures are amplified and traditions that have survived for many centuries can vanish unless they are supported.
I personally believe that any of you that think that the digeridoo has a place in ITM need to examine you minds....you are deluded and completely off the mark...yet another example of the delusion of if it is art anything goes rot.
Also Duijera Dubh, I was intrested to read your personal profile, the word didgeridoo did not come for the irish and to even suggest that is a huge insult to the indigenous people of australia. Why not research the indigenous culture and their languages before you start writing "knowledgeably" on the subject. Tombo out!
You're entitled to your opinion,Tombo.At first glance,I'd tend to agree with you.Except that,when a Tasmanian player of Uillean Pipes produces a CD called 'Music of the Irish Celts' (of course,the CD title might have been out of his control) featuring didge,I ponder my opinion,and it came to mind that the Irish Celts once had an instrument resembling the didge....
I thought it was an interesting topic to explore,and I'm grateful for the various contributions that have been offered.
I know that Dicky used the didgeridoo on his album, but then again he may be a little out there as well! He is a brilliant piper but sometimes everyone gets it wrong have a great day wolfbird
I'd guess that Dicky Deegan's opinion might differ from your own.
I like to dig a bit before I decide.I tend toward the view that if someone's music is really very high quality,it can stand alone,not needing to claim support from any particular cultural context.Then there's another type of music that is recognised for it's authenticity,in that it faithfully exemplifies a particular tradition.
As one very interested in the history of the music, from a sound, instrument and tune standpoint, not an academic one, one of the biggest frustrations is that there are no recordings before a certain period.
We just had this wonderful old style melodian player here in NJ/NY named Alan Morrisroe, who can trace his style back for sure at least 200 years, since he learned from his grandmother, born 1884, and she had learned from the old folks in Swinford, Co. Mayo, and a good number of them had been born in the early 1800s. It is more than likely they learned from many old folks as well, living in the 1700's so likely that style is older. We do lose the thread before that, except for written music, the little there was. And who knows what instruments people picked up and used way back in the bronze age or what in the world the music sounded like. Was it primitive , crude and tribal sounding or possibly more sophisticated that we could ever imagine.
Along the same lines we have a fellow out here in NJ who plays clarinet with the NJ Symphony, he primarily plays whistles at sessions, but will turn the tunes out quite well on clarinet. Many tell him it's not a trad instrument, but many others like it and he is always asked by someone to take out the clarinet. I copied for him an old photo of Paddy Sweeney's Band, complete with a clarinetist, so he can carry that around when someone gives him lip about it, and show it was indeed used at times by respected musicians. And Mary Bergin heard him last summer and loved the sound of it, she raved on and on about it.
I have heard a didgie just once and when used like a drone it sounds haunting and I liked it. If it works in well on certain tunes, why not. Uillean Pipes, as someone (was it you? I am not focusing real well this AM after the holiday haze) have not been around all that long either, wonder what the first comments were like when they came out. What about harpsichord, used by Triona Ni'Dhomnaill. Not the usual fare, but a great sound. Never mind Bouzouki.
I think what it takes is a fine ITM musician to introduce a new (even if ancient) instrument into the music and play it well and tastefully where it gives the music a great sound and lift, and then it catches on. Suddenly everyone would want one and it would be the next cool thing to have, Celtic knotwork and all likely inlaid into the wood!
Sounds like you have found some real treasure from Alan Morrisroe.I look forward to learning more about that.
Yes,isn't the speculation about the nature of the earlier music tantalizing? We have all been so brainwashed to glorify our own time as being so wonderful,the myth of 'progress' where everything is always 'new',we forget that just because people are dead,it doesn't follow that they were stupid,uncultured,insensitive,and without recorded music and radio,etc, they probably gave their music greater value and respect than we do.
If you follow the history and prehistory of woodworking,people were very highly skilled.(e.g. According to Oliver Rackham,Iron Age wheelwrighting was superior to any since.) If it was possible to do an archaeology of music we might be very surprised and have our preconceptions overturned.
The introduction of new sounds or instruments is quite a tricky subject.I remember a brief period in my teens when,as a folkie,I disparaged all except authentic acoustic instruments...until the moment when I first heard Jimi Hendrix.
I think really great musicians like say,Jan Gabarek or John McLaughlin can make great original music playing with musicians drawn from any background.But I also believe that the remaining traditions of ethnic music need to try and remain distinct and define their boundaries,in so far as that's possible.
Anyway,thanks for your words,iris,and thanks again to all the others who contributed to this thread, and to my own on-going education
Seems to me that Iris makes a very interesting and relevant point when she says:
>I have heard a didgie just once and when used like a drone it sounds haunting and I liked it. <
I was interested to hear what she (or anyone else) might see as uses of a didge other than as *a drone* in ITM.
“The term didjeridu is onomatopoetic and not of indigenous origin. That is, didjeridu is a word of Western invention, first coined in the early part of the 20th century to describe the sounds made by the instrument. It is also fairly certain that the earliest usage of the expression applied to instruments encountered in Western Arnhem Land or in the region to its immediate south, where repeating rhythms or sound patternings such as "didjeridu-dideru", "didjemro" and "didjeramo-rebo" are found. However, today, the word didjeridu is used much more generally to include instruments originating from all parts of Aboriginal Australia as well as a broad spectrum of instruments produced by indigenous and non-indigenous makers utilising an array of modern materials and methods.”
“Traditional didjeridu techniques.
The most sophisticated and technically refined playing styles have developed among the coastal Aboriginal groups of northern Australia. Indeed, the finest didjeridu players on this planet are to be found on Groote Eylandt, north-east Arnhem Land, and Western Arnhem Land. In these areas, didjeridu compositions are rhythmically complex and multi-dimensional and the techniques that are the cornerstone of these compositions are nothing short of extraordinary. Traditional Aboriginal techniques are based on pulsed accents effected through tongue, throat and diaphragm manipulations.
Playing the didjeridu in the classical styles of Arnhem Land is a source of continued inspiration and challenge for a growing number of didjeridu players throughout the world. Whilst musically diverse and geographically distinct, classical traditional playing styles can be clumped into 2 general categories: overtone-present and overtone-absent.
The overtone-present style is endemic to Groote Eylandt, north-east Arnhem Land, north-central Arnhem Land and south-east Arnhem Land. Only the first overtone note is used in traditional Aboriginal society.
The overtone-absent style in used in other parts of the Northern Territory including Western Arnhem Land and the NW region of the Northern Territory.
Contemporary didjeridu styles
Contemporary styles are basically anything that is not traditional. Some Aboriginal players liken contemporary playing to aeroplane noises! Typically, contemporary playing consists of swirling, bouncing sounds with plenty of vocal effects. More accomplished contemporary players are driven by beat and rhythm.”
Puts a whole new dimension to it, doesn’t it.
So, for those wondering whether the didj has a place in ITM, you can make your own conclusions. I guess there is a place for it, if some people want to make one, but I would think that space might well limit the potential, meaning and real use of the instrument. So, before judging the didj negatively, perhaps we might consider the constraints placed upon it by its use in ITM in isolation from its own context. Square pegs don’t fit easily in round holes, unless you make some fairly drastic modifications.
Didgeridoos
Didgeridoos
I have a CD titled 'Music of the Irish Celts' featuring Uillean Pipes played by Dicky Deegan accompanied by various instruments including the Didgeridoo.
There has been much discussion about the place in ITM of the bodhran and the intrusion of other instruments 'foreign' to the tradition such as bazouki,electronic synthesizers,even the ukulele,with folks arguing for maintenance of authentic tradition.
I'm curious to know whether anyone would accept that the Didgeridoo has any place,on the grounds that it is replacing an authentic instrument that has been long lost to the tradition,the horn featured on sound samples here
http://homepage.eircom.net/~bronzeagehorns/sounds.html
# Posted on November 22nd 2007 by wolfbird
Re: Didgeridoos
Ha Ha ha! LOL..... personally i think thats a step TOO far, but each to their own;-D
# Posted on November 22nd 2007 by the wicked hacker
Re: Didgeridoos
The Canadian brother/sister band Fiddlehaus employs the digeridoo. Most of their tunes are their originals, but they're heavily influenced by ITM, and the digeridoo really works well.
# Posted on November 22nd 2007 by Tall, Dark, and Mysterious
Re: Didgeridoos
I have heard it done well once - for one slow air, with a skilled guy who knew his didgeridoo was in the same key. I also have a nice recording where (I think it's a Sharon Shannon CD) uses a didgeridoo for a nice effect with a slow march.
However, I would simply hate it if some silly git tried to toot on it all night long in a session on every tune. It's right up there with djembes and all the other kooky noisemakers that typically wreck a session inside of two sets.
# Posted on November 22nd 2007 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: Didgeridoos
The first 'Irish' band I played in featured a didgeridoo. It happened to be pitched in D, so it worked nicely as a drone on the more pipey tunes. The didgeridooist also played a number of other instruments and sang, so it was used sparingly.
Dicky Deegan is an excellent piper. My first thought was, "What's a good traditional musician like that doing messing about with didges and synths?" (...and the title of the CD sounds a bit soppy and romantic). But I haven't heard it yet.
# Posted on November 22nd 2007 by OrganicPeatCreature
Re: Didgeridoos
...and my second thought is, good on him for not being a slave to people's expectations. But, again, I haven't heard it yet.
# Posted on November 22nd 2007 by OrganicPeatCreature
Re: Didgeridoos
Well, isn't the banjo originally an African instrument?
# Posted on November 22nd 2007 by sbhikes
Re: Didgeridoos
Steve Cooney used didgeriedoo to nice effect on albums with Seamus Begley, Sharon Shannon, Deanta,
have not heard anyone else try it.
Id say it would be pretty hard to find any to make it fit like Steve did! ;)
# Posted on November 22nd 2007 by S.Doherty
Re: Didgeridoos
...Dickie Deegan is from Tasmania, so perhaps there is a little more depth to his choice of accompaniment that there might at first seem to be.
# Posted on November 22nd 2007 by OrganicPeatCreature
Re: Didgeridoos
The banjo is an american instrument.
# Posted on November 22nd 2007 by Farr
Re: Didgeridoos
"The banjo is an American instrument."
In its current form, yes - and it is an instrument that many people envisage emblazoned with stars and stripes. But it was first brought to North America by West African slaves - and there are still basically similar instruments to be found in West Africa, known by similar names.
You might call Hop High Ladies an American tune, but it doesn't take much to recognize it as Mrs. MacLeod of Raasay.
Or am I missing some irony, Farr?
# Posted on November 22nd 2007 by OrganicPeatCreature
Re: Didgeridoos
The banjo was (I think) developed by African slaves in America, as an instrument to imitate the trad stringed instruments of Africa (the khalam from Sénégal and Mali comes to mind...
# Posted on November 22nd 2007 by mehitabel23
Re: Didgeridoos
).
And a pitched didgeridoo can be used to wonderful effect, in any kind of music (Outback of course!)
(http://youtube.com/watch?v=Sg3B57pm85Y)
# Posted on November 22nd 2007 by mehitabel23
Re: Didgeridoos
"The banjo was (I think) developed by African slaves in America, as an instrument to imitate the trad stringed instruments of Africa"
Yes - Perhaps it is oversimplifying things to say that the *banjo* was brought from Africa. The idea of a stringed instrument with an animal skin for a soundboard came to America with African slaves.
# Posted on November 22nd 2007 by OrganicPeatCreature
Re: Didgeridoos
Yeah, so then West African slaves brought banjos (or memories of them) to America, which then found their way to Ireland somehow. And wasn't Australia colonized by Irish prisoners? Perhaps they're finally bring didgeridoos back to Ireland.
# Posted on November 22nd 2007 by sbhikes
Re: Didgeridoos
Er, that'd be "bringing".
# Posted on November 22nd 2007 by sbhikes
Re: Didgeridoos
It's not the origin of the instrument, it's the sound of it. An Italian fiddle and a German flute playing Polish polkas and Austrian waltzes as well as Scandinavian reels and Scottish jigs* all go nicely to make up "Irish Traditional Music." The African/American/African-American banjo fits well into this sound. The didgeridoo? Well, all I can say is "didgeridon't".
# Posted on November 22nd 2007 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Didgeridoos
Here is a demonstration of akonting playing from Senegal,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b1zC4SSbdmU
# Posted on November 22nd 2007 by Tonya
Re: Didgeridoos
The didgeridoo is a true traditional instrument, and should preserve its status by remaining aloft from a "tradition" that tolerates mandolins, banjos, bazoukis and the like.
# Posted on November 22nd 2007 by bodhran bliss
Re: Didgeridoos
That is interesting bodhran bliss. Here are some more comments about sharing traditional music.
http://www.yirrkala.com/yidaki/dhawu/32play.html
# Posted on November 22nd 2007 by Tonya
Re: Didgeridoos
Thanks for that link Tonya.Fascinating.Obviously,there are the Aboriginal equivalents of Dow and Llig exhorting the newbies to 'Learn the tunes!' and no doubt similar heated debates about what's trad and what's not
I can just imagine a young fella walking up to their campfire with a set of Uillean pipes and causing horror and outrage amongst the elders and purists....
I can see that some instruments from different cultures and countries can be absorbed into a tradition if they are basically compatible.But my question was partly concerned with ancient indigenous Irish instruments,those various kinds of prehistoric and mediaeval horns.
If 'traditional' is defined by excluding new gadgets (like,say, electronic keyboards) does it also have a cut-off date that would exclude the most ancient instruments,even if they were once native to the land?
# Posted on November 23rd 2007 by wolfbird
Re: Didgeridoos
The electronic keyboard would have been in at the start of ITM if someone had gotten around to inventing electric.
# Posted on November 23rd 2007 by bodhran bliss
Re: Didgeridoos
www.thecorroboree.org/discussions.
# Posted on November 23rd 2007 by chuneboi slim
Re: Didgeridoos
Hi chuneboi.I tried the link.It doesn't seem to work
# Posted on November 23rd 2007 by wolfbird
Re: Didgeridoos
Doesn't Stockton's Wing use a didgeridoo in a few of their tracks?
# Posted on November 23rd 2007 by TheSilverSpear
Re: Didgeridoos
I've a benefit album for the family of Simon Melia, a great box player from Melbourne, which includes at least one track with Didge & Sticks (similar to the Bones) accompaniment and it works really well. It would get too much on every tune, but in this case it gives an interesting 'local' spin on immigrant music.
# Posted on November 23rd 2007 by bc_box_player
Re: Didgeridoos
Hello Wolfbird. How's it going. Long time no hear etc.
It was an attempt at humour.Sorry. I'm not very good at that stuff.
# Posted on November 23rd 2007 by chuneboi slim
Re: Didgeridoos
Hi chuneboi,aha! it's funny now I get you
# Posted on November 23rd 2007 by wolfbird
Re: Didgeridoos
http://www.corroboree.tk/
# Posted on November 23rd 2007 by wolfbird
Re: Didgeridoos
I hope nobody thinks that I am suggesting or encouraging didges at sessions.What I find fascinating is the astonishing range of expression that the instrument has,(as demonstrated by the samples at the link I just posted) and the conjecture that the horns of ancient Ireland could have had a similar range.At least,i don't see any obvious reason why they wouldn't have been capable of producing as much variety.I wonder why they vanished?
# Posted on November 23rd 2007 by wolfbird
Re: Didgeridoos
Couple of observations, folks, which might help:
.Australia was colonised mostly by English prisoners for a good few years. Not all but the vast majority. Irish prisoners sent to Australia after 1798 were many of the supporters and leaders of the revolution in that year. We actually had another attempted revolution in the Parramatta/Castle Hill (Vinegar Hill) area in the years after that, and many of them were then gunned down by the redcoats.
Didges are rhythmic. (They happen to go really well with tublas - Indian music type rhythms.) I have heard the excellent aboriginal singers, dancers and didge players in Sydney (Circular Quay), and listened carefully to the timing of the music. It isn't the western norms. So when it is put into Irish music timing it doesn't have the same effect. They sound nice in the situation, but (to me, as an Australian) it itsn't quite there.
Didges sound really great in the Australian outback.
I have played uilleann pipes with Australian indigenous players and dancers and they (the musicians) really identify with them.
Many Australian indigenous people have Irish surnames (and descent).
# Posted on November 23rd 2007 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Didgeridoos
I've just arrived in Canberra this afternoon for the weekend.
Canberra is the national capital, and happens, in the ancient indigenous context to be the place of meeting. What a beautiful place it is, and very Australian.
And here’s an extract from a television interview last night in Australia. Jon Muir does solo walking trips across the Australian deserts, Antarctic treks, and other seriously dangerous stuff, which seem to nearly kill him each time. Obviously very tough, but a gentle bloke as well. He's reading from his diary entry as requested by the interviewer. See what he says about the music where there are no players. This is fairly commonly known about in parts of Australia. Does it have any parallel in Ireland? I’m sure there’d be stories no one is prepared to talk about. I wonder what tunes you'd hear.
Jon Muir: …this is from um the walk I’ve just completed. OK, “It happened again last night. An abrupt awakening when I knew instantly what had jolted me from sleep. This time there was no inclination to try and find out where it was coming from because I believed there was no physical explanation for the sound I was hearing. So instead, I listened and absorbed it. Just as I had heard before well on the traverse of Australia, voices chanting, stamping feet, clapping sticks. The unmistakeable sound of a corroboree. Everyday I see evidence of their occupation of the land and feel their presence. Having experienced this before it no longer seems strange to hear their celebration. It’s comforting. I looked up at the stars and gently fall into my usual solid, deep sleep.”
Andrew Denton: And was that a dream, a hallucination? Do you know what that was?
Jon Muir: Um I think, I think I was hearing voices from the past. And I’ve heard that before and not actually really spoke to too many people about it. But on the drive home something very interesting happened, and that was, we stopped in at a mate of mine who lives out there in the outback, Aboriginal bloke, and he had a mate of his over who does a lot of cattle work and spends a lot of time out in the middle of nowhere. And he said to me, we were having a bit of a yarn about this walk I’d just done and he said “Does the desert ever speak to you?” And I said “Yeah, it does.” And he said “Have you heard the corroborees?” And I said, “Yes. Twice.” And he said “I heard one once with two mates and he heard exactly that same thing.” I got out of my sleeping, I thought I’ve got to go and check this out and I got out of my sleeping bag and followed this sound and there was just nothing out there.
# Posted on November 23rd 2007 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Didgeridoos
Hello DD.Thanks for the contribution.yes,I read this when you posted it a couple of days ago.Do you want more comments?
My view is that there is nothing whatsoever surprising about Muir's experience.If I remember correctly,a survey a few years ago in the UK claimed that three quarters of those interviewed had stories to tell of approximately similar 'odd' experiences at some time in their lives.In many cultures around the world people have expected to have such experiences.
The reason that you,and others,think Muir's story is peculiar is because you have bought into the euro-american mainstream model of reality which gets indoctrinated into us by the education system.It's a philosophical model derived from Enlightenment science plus materialism,industrialism,capitalism,and other influences,and IMO,is profoundly and fundamentally wrong.It's a model which claims that the world is just a sort of machine composed of inert 'stuff' and that any spiritual aspects are the result of some sort of pathological delusion.It's a view that's been comprehensively demolished by many thinkers but it persists because it is politically convenient and suits those who have no respect for anything except money.It means that the planet and all its inhabitants can be seen as nothing more than ccommodities to be exploited and abused in anyway that is convenient.
If you think about it,the division between 'real' and 'hallucination' is nonsensical.Imagine yourself on your death bed,reviewing the totality of your lifetime.All that you will recall will be experiences of many and various sorts.You might even find that a movie had a major effect.Is a movie 'real'? It's just flickering light projected onto a screen,yet a good one can make a powerful impact.All that we have are experiences of various qualities.There are books and websites recounting thousands and thousands of stories like Muir's.
# Posted on November 23rd 2007 by wolfbird
Re: Didgeridoos
Wow, wolfbird! Yep, it is so easy to dismiss those cultures, usually extremely long surviving, that are based on spiritualism instead of civilisation. The civilised logic discounts these cultures as primative, but it is actually the so called civilised that are the blinkered ones. It is civilisation that is unsustainable very long term, whereas, communing with the Dreamtime Ancestors and gathering from the land just might be a more sustainable way. We need to listen.
# Posted on November 23rd 2007 by Clear Drops
Re: Didgeridoos
Clear Drops,you like?
I think my views are usually considered eccentric,but the madness of the mainstream,so called 'civilisation', is going to cause the extinction of all of us.
For the conventional economics that governments follow,it makes perfect sense to trash the planet as fast as possible,because it maximizes returns on investment,which is what all shareholders want.I say,fight back! "It's the ECOLOGY,stoopid!"
http://www.insurgentdesire.org.uk/artifacts.htm
# Posted on November 23rd 2007 by wolfbird
Re: Didgeridoos
No, I don't think Muir's experience is peculiar at all, wolfbird. Many do, no doubt. I find it interesting that Muir himself said that he had been reluctant to tell people about it, so he said it anyway on a national broadcast.
Civilisation may well cause the extinction of all of us. I have a feeling the planet will reinvent itself though.
# Posted on November 23rd 2007 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Didgeridoos
> I can just imagine a young fella walking up to their campfire with a set of Uillean pipes and causing horror and outrage among the elders and purists...wolfie.
That's not my impression of how they would react at all. On the contrary, they seem to me to be very accepting and interested in uillean pipes. You see, as has been said above, it is the ITM professional musicians and others that are seeking to include the didge in Irish music. Personally, I find it interesting, but I'm not so sure it's a great fit. I notice, as far as I can see in Australia, that the indigenous didge players don't go out of their way to include uilleann pipes at their sessions.
Dicky Deegan,the great player that he is, and others, I think are drawing some interesting comparisons by including the didge in ITM, and to those not used to the didge, it might have an attraction. I just find it a bit out of context, is all, because it sounds to me like what they are getting the didge to do in ITM, doesn't seem to allow the didge to do full justice to its genre in that context. Maybe the ancient celtic horn that wolfbird points out might be a better choice. Has anyone tried that? Try it.
# Posted on November 23rd 2007 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Didgeridoos
Did you check out the debate and differing opinions,DD,and the desire some have to keep their tradition intact and undiluted ?
You "have a feeling" ? Do you think then,that your personal feeling is any sort of reliable guide as to what the Earth may or may not do?
"Try it." Not sure what you're suggesting to try.The Bronze Age horn? Suggest you try it yourself.And be sure to come back and tell us all how you got on,eh.Thanks for your thoughts.
# Posted on November 23rd 2007 by wolfbird
Re: Didgeridoos
Great thread wolfbird. Great posts Duijera.
# Posted on November 23rd 2007 by chuneboi slim
Re: Didgeridoos
Wolfie, I have no doubt that indigenous Australians would really love to keep their tradition intact and undiluted, if that's what you're saying.
Do I think that my personal feeling is any sort of reliable guide as to what the Earth may or may not do? - For me, it's a guide, yes. A guide is a guide.
I'm not into the bronze age horn, wolfie. You're the one suggesting it might be better than the didge for ITM. I tend to agree. I have a feeling you might be right, mind you, that's a guide only. You might be better qualified to provide the findings, if your views about the didge are any guide.
Great craic. This is about as subtle as a pipe band at a corroboree.
# Posted on November 24th 2007 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Didgeridoos
DD,that's not what i'm saying.I was asking you,if you had checked out the views,the views of indigenous Australians,as illustrated on the website posted above.I get the impression you have not.
I have never suggested either the didge or the various ancient horns be incorporated into ITM.I think it is fascinating that Ireland once had an instrument,producing a sound roughly corresponding to the didge.I wanted to hear the views of folks on this site.Thanks for yours.
# Posted on November 24th 2007 by wolfbird
Re: Didgeridoos
Wolfbird, I have seen the views expressed at the site, and they are exactly what I would expect the indigenous Australian didge players to say. They sound to me not dissimilar to views I've seen and heard expressed about the difference between ITM played by people born in Ireland and raised in the tradition, and those not.
If professional or other ITM players want to include the didge in their recordings/playing they are clearly free to do so. But I do think there is much more to the playing of a didge to what they are *limited* to in ITM. That doesn't really do a great deal of justice to what they are about.
One of the comments at the site is about "inspiration from the environment". Just so. If the didge is about being a conduit for inspiration between the people and the land, I'm not sure that can be reflected in a limited backing in an ITM recording. Sure, it might serve as an introduction to the didge to those who haven't heard it before, or are mildly interested, but it isn't the whole deal. The didge needs to be given its own space to really be understood in the fullest sense.
I just think we need to be careful about what could be seen as "cultural appropriation" of the didge, and then delivering to listeners an out-of-context, limited view of the instrument, and then generate negative views about it.
If we want to fairly appreciate the didge, I have a feeling we need to understand the land, the stories and the environment from which it comes, not just depend on the impression given by it being deigned to be included in ITM. Are we really qualified to comment on it fairly if that is our only exposure to it.
Maybe find an instrument like the bronze age horn that might have a more ready context. Or not.
# Posted on November 24th 2007 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Didgeridoos
Sorry,DD,I have no idea what you're trying to say,but thanks for it anyway.
# Posted on November 24th 2007 by wolfbird
Re: Didgeridoos
I think I could see that, wolfbird, but tried anyway.
# Posted on November 24th 2007 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Didgeridoos
Yes, I understand your environmental angle completely Duijera. The didge is synonymous with heat, silence, space
song of cicada in the middle of the day, massive fly like creatures colliding with unsuspecting flesh while taking shelter under the stringybark, staring out at the still, baked, brilliance of the landscape. No physical threats but those of nature itself , appearing at wide sporadic intervals just to remind you you're alone.
Being able to articulate my reaction to the sound of the didge
so easily has just made me also aware of how little I know about the enviromental ties of Irish Music. A thread perhaps to
put to the Native Irish contingent?
# Posted on November 24th 2007 by chuneboi slim
Re: Didgeridoos
I thought the thread was about the use of the didge in ITM, as the sound of it resembles some ancient Irish horn.....
I didn't think the thread was about the value of the didge in general or the value one places on it soley as a result of only hearing it played in ITM....
# Posted on November 24th 2007 by wyogal
Re: Didgeridoos
chuneboi, how about sending your comments to the indigenous website provided above, to get some feedback from the aboriginal players. Mate!
I guess that a lot of the native Irish players would indeed have a lot to say about the environmental ties of Irish Music. Put it to them why don't you?
Yes, wyogal, threads seem to turn into tangled webs sometimes don't they.
# Posted on November 24th 2007 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Didgeridoos
LOL
# Posted on November 24th 2007 by wyogal
Re: Didgeridoos
Hi wyogal,I asked the question pretty much in line with what you just have said,but I'm flexible and don't object if the topic drifts,because I'm interested in learning,and new angles can be sometimes be illuminating.
I'm mystified why duijera dubh placed his whole thread topic from a few days ago onto this page,because it's not common etiquette.
However it's quite interesting so I don't object to the distraction.
Perhaps he's like to rephrase his contribution to clarify whatever point it is that he has in mind.
# Posted on November 24th 2007 by wolfbird
Re: Didgeridoos
Nah, wolfbird, I think I'm all rephrased out right now. I'd say most people would have got the drift.
And yes, wolfie, I guess we're all learners here. I hope you've learned something from the thread, if not about the didge - or at least more than you knew before about it.
I will await the playing of the bronze age horn by some brave soul at an ITM session.
# Posted on November 24th 2007 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Didgeridoos
Folks, I have to be away now. But I'll be back, don't worry. Thanks for the craic.
# Posted on November 24th 2007 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Didgeridoos
I'm obviously much too stupid to understand your drift,DD,or to learn anything from you,but thanks for your contribution.
# Posted on November 24th 2007 by wolfbird
Re: Didgeridoos
I wouldn't agree with you there, wolfo. Don't be selling yourself short at all. I think you've changed some perspectives already.
Think about it all maybe; esp. re-read that indigenous website - a few times, and let yourself assimilate those comments. That site's magic for getting a really good understanding of the issues that have been talked about.
I've just returned actually from a photographic exhibition of Aboriginal sacred sites at the National Library here. It was absolutely great. The guy has spent 30 years travelling around collecting and recording these. (One of the photos was, by agreement with the tribal elders, behind curtains, access *restricted to men* as it said. Wow.)
Here's a nice extract from the exhibition, by the author:
"I thought back to what I was told on more than one occasion by Aboriginal men, as they showed me their special places. They said the energy of centuries of the ritual use of ochre, blood, story, dance, song and secrecy was still there, but is was now *in the ground*, under the ceremonial place. It was dangerous to try, but that energy could be reactivated if it was done *the right way*. Whether this is true or not, it changed my perceptions, and all the caged and contained places I photographed are now not quite as they seem."
That's where didges sound really good - and especially when they're telling a story and accompanying dance and chant. That's the context.
Playing uilleann pipes or ITM in places like that, while the sentiments and symbolisms of doing so might be appreciated, in the end it sounds and feels, to me anyway, a bit out of place, you can probably imagine. To me, that's a bit of the same feeling when I hear didges played in ITM.
# Posted on November 24th 2007 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Didgeridoos
So? What's your point that's relevant to the topic?
# Posted on November 24th 2007 by wolfbird
Re: Didgeridoos
It's right there in the last paragraph, mate.
If that's not clear enough, then I'll have to leave it to you.
No one else seems to be missing the point, unless I'm mistaken. Good luck to you.
# Posted on November 24th 2007 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Didgeridoos
Forgive me,Duijera Dubh,but I posted the topic at the top of the page,concerning Irish traditional music and various instruments which have entered that tradition....erm,nothing that i mentioned connects to Australian landscape or what instruments are best for playing in the Australian landscape,so the relevance of what you've said evades me.
If you want to discuss THAT topic,you don't need me to tell you how to set up a new thread.
The impression you've given me is that you don't have a musical culture of your own so you attempt to co-opt the tradition of the Irish on the one hand,and of the indigenous Australians on the other,and glue them together.Both the Irish and Aboriginals who try to preserve their traditional culture might find such a mixture objectionable.I'd have some sympathy for that view.
However,cross-cultural blending has been going on forever and can lead to positive new genres,rock and roll being an example.The threat nowadays comes because of the internet and other media and easy travel means that cultural changes happen so much faster than ever before.The pressures on minority cultures are amplified and traditions that have survived for many centuries can vanish unless they are supported.
# Posted on November 24th 2007 by wolfbird
Re: Didgeridoos
I personally believe that any of you that think that the digeridoo has a place in ITM need to examine you minds....you are deluded and completely off the mark...yet another example of the delusion of if it is art anything goes rot.
Also Duijera Dubh, I was intrested to read your personal profile, the word didgeridoo did not come for the irish and to even suggest that is a huge insult to the indigenous people of australia. Why not research the indigenous culture and their languages before you start writing "knowledgeably" on the subject. Tombo out!
# Posted on November 24th 2007 by fiddly dee fiddly doo oh how all take it so seriously!
Re: Didgeridoos
You're entitled to your opinion,Tombo.At first glance,I'd tend to agree with you.Except that,when a Tasmanian player of Uillean Pipes produces a CD called 'Music of the Irish Celts' (of course,the CD title might have been out of his control) featuring didge,I ponder my opinion,and it came to mind that the Irish Celts once had an instrument resembling the didge....
I thought it was an interesting topic to explore,and I'm grateful for the various contributions that have been offered.
# Posted on November 24th 2007 by wolfbird
Re: Didgeridoos
I recommend that you wear something with a lot of orange if you attempt playing one in Colorado.
# Posted on November 24th 2007 by Lint - upon - Tweed
Re: Didgeridoos
Why? To avoid being mistaken for an elk?
# Posted on November 24th 2007 by wolfbird
Re: Didgeridoos
I know that Dicky used the didgeridoo on his album, but then again he may be a little out there as well! He is a brilliant piper but sometimes everyone gets it wrong
have a great day wolfbird
# Posted on November 24th 2007 by fiddly dee fiddly doo oh how all take it so seriously!
Re: Didgeridoos
Thanks,tombo,I'll try to have a great day
I'd guess that Dicky Deegan's opinion might differ from your own.
I like to dig a bit before I decide.I tend toward the view that if someone's music is really very high quality,it can stand alone,not needing to claim support from any particular cultural context.Then there's another type of music that is recognised for it's authenticity,in that it faithfully exemplifies a particular tradition.
# Posted on November 24th 2007 by wolfbird
Re: Didgeridoos
Hi Wolfbird, hope you are keeping well!
As one very interested in the history of the music, from a sound, instrument and tune standpoint, not an academic one, one of the biggest frustrations is that there are no recordings before a certain period.
We just had this wonderful old style melodian player here in NJ/NY named Alan Morrisroe, who can trace his style back for sure at least 200 years, since he learned from his grandmother, born 1884, and she had learned from the old folks in Swinford, Co. Mayo, and a good number of them had been born in the early 1800s. It is more than likely they learned from many old folks as well, living in the 1700's so likely that style is older. We do lose the thread before that, except for written music, the little there was. And who knows what instruments people picked up and used way back in the bronze age or what in the world the music sounded like. Was it primitive , crude and tribal sounding or possibly more sophisticated that we could ever imagine.
Along the same lines we have a fellow out here in NJ who plays clarinet with the NJ Symphony, he primarily plays whistles at sessions, but will turn the tunes out quite well on clarinet. Many tell him it's not a trad instrument, but many others like it and he is always asked by someone to take out the clarinet. I copied for him an old photo of Paddy Sweeney's Band, complete with a clarinetist, so he can carry that around when someone gives him lip about it, and show it was indeed used at times by respected musicians. And Mary Bergin heard him last summer and loved the sound of it, she raved on and on about it.
I have heard a didgie just once and when used like a drone it sounds haunting and I liked it. If it works in well on certain tunes, why not. Uillean Pipes, as someone (was it you? I am not focusing real well this AM after the holiday haze) have not been around all that long either, wonder what the first comments were like when they came out. What about harpsichord, used by Triona Ni'Dhomnaill. Not the usual fare, but a great sound. Never mind Bouzouki.
I think what it takes is a fine ITM musician to introduce a new (even if ancient) instrument into the music and play it well and tastefully where it gives the music a great sound and lift, and then it catches on. Suddenly everyone would want one and it would be the next cool thing to have, Celtic knotwork and all likely inlaid into the wood!
# Posted on November 24th 2007 by irisnevins
Re: Didgeridoos
Hi Iris,and good wishes to yourself too,
Sounds like you have found some real treasure from Alan Morrisroe.I look forward to learning more about that.
Yes,isn't the speculation about the nature of the earlier music tantalizing? We have all been so brainwashed to glorify our own time as being so wonderful,the myth of 'progress' where everything is always 'new',we forget that just because people are dead,it doesn't follow that they were stupid,uncultured,insensitive,and without recorded music and radio,etc, they probably gave their music greater value and respect than we do.
If you follow the history and prehistory of woodworking,people were very highly skilled.(e.g. According to Oliver Rackham,Iron Age wheelwrighting was superior to any since.) If it was possible to do an archaeology of music we might be very surprised and have our preconceptions overturned.
The introduction of new sounds or instruments is quite a tricky subject.I remember a brief period in my teens when,as a folkie,I disparaged all except authentic acoustic instruments...until the moment when I first heard Jimi Hendrix.
I think really great musicians like say,Jan Gabarek or John McLaughlin can make great original music playing with musicians drawn from any background.But I also believe that the remaining traditions of ethnic music need to try and remain distinct and define their boundaries,in so far as that's possible.
Anyway,thanks for your words,iris,and thanks again to all the others who contributed to this thread, and to my own on-going education
# Posted on November 25th 2007 by wolfbird
Re: Didgeridoos
Seems to me that Iris makes a very interesting and relevant point when she says:
>I have heard a didgie just once and when used like a drone it sounds haunting and I liked it. <
I was interested to hear what she (or anyone else) might see as uses of a didge other than as *a drone* in ITM.
# Posted on November 25th 2007 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Didgeridoos
Triona Ni'Dhomnaill played a Clavinet.
# Posted on November 27th 2007 by dafydd
Re: Didgeridoos
And by the way, Tombo, here's an extract from the iDidj cultural website on the origin of the word didjeridu, before jumping to conclusions:
http://www.ididj.com.au/theDidjeridu/what.html
“The term didjeridu is onomatopoetic and not of indigenous origin. That is, didjeridu is a word of Western invention, first coined in the early part of the 20th century to describe the sounds made by the instrument. It is also fairly certain that the earliest usage of the expression applied to instruments encountered in Western Arnhem Land or in the region to its immediate south, where repeating rhythms or sound patternings such as "didjeridu-dideru", "didjemro" and "didjeramo-rebo" are found. However, today, the word didjeridu is used much more generally to include instruments originating from all parts of Aboriginal Australia as well as a broad spectrum of instruments produced by indigenous and non-indigenous makers utilising an array of modern materials and methods.”
How's that for putting in a pipe and smoking it.
# Posted on December 1st 2007 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Didgeridoos
For the record, for present or future interested readers, a further extract:
http://www.ididj.com.au/theDidjeridu/play.html
“Traditional didjeridu techniques.
The most sophisticated and technically refined playing styles have developed among the coastal Aboriginal groups of northern Australia. Indeed, the finest didjeridu players on this planet are to be found on Groote Eylandt, north-east Arnhem Land, and Western Arnhem Land. In these areas, didjeridu compositions are rhythmically complex and multi-dimensional and the techniques that are the cornerstone of these compositions are nothing short of extraordinary. Traditional Aboriginal techniques are based on pulsed accents effected through tongue, throat and diaphragm manipulations.
Playing the didjeridu in the classical styles of Arnhem Land is a source of continued inspiration and challenge for a growing number of didjeridu players throughout the world. Whilst musically diverse and geographically distinct, classical traditional playing styles can be clumped into 2 general categories: overtone-present and overtone-absent.
The overtone-present style is endemic to Groote Eylandt, north-east Arnhem Land, north-central Arnhem Land and south-east Arnhem Land. Only the first overtone note is used in traditional Aboriginal society.
The overtone-absent style in used in other parts of the Northern Territory including Western Arnhem Land and the NW region of the Northern Territory.
Contemporary didjeridu styles
Contemporary styles are basically anything that is not traditional. Some Aboriginal players liken contemporary playing to aeroplane noises! Typically, contemporary playing consists of swirling, bouncing sounds with plenty of vocal effects. More accomplished contemporary players are driven by beat and rhythm.”
Puts a whole new dimension to it, doesn’t it.
So, for those wondering whether the didj has a place in ITM, you can make your own conclusions. I guess there is a place for it, if some people want to make one, but I would think that space might well limit the potential, meaning and real use of the instrument. So, before judging the didj negatively, perhaps we might consider the constraints placed upon it by its use in ITM in isolation from its own context. Square pegs don’t fit easily in round holes, unless you make some fairly drastic modifications.
# Posted on December 1st 2007 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Didgeridoos
How does this fit into ITM, if at all?! Maybe the bronze age horn sounded something the same. Enjoy.
http://www.ididj.com.au/store/music/magomaster.mp3
http://www.ididj.com.au/store/music/whitecockatoo.mp3
# Posted on December 1st 2007 by Duijera Dubh