Old Hag, You Have Killed Me
The Hag With The Money/No Money/Purse/Fiddle
Hag in the Blanket/Corner
Hag at the Kiln/Churn/Spinning Wheel
The Foreign Hag, The Protestant Hag
Cheer Up, Old Hag
I Buried My Wife and Danced on her Grave
Now, maybe I'm being oversensitive here, but one might say that, unless the word 'hag' has some cosy meaning that eludes me, these titles indicate a degree of machismo in Irish music which has somehow hitherto slipped under the radar.
I've been trying to find some explanation for this one-sided phenomenon- something more than a minor lapse in civility, surely. After all, I can't think of too many tunes with titles like 'Get Your Own Dinner, You Sad Old Bastard' or 'He Had A Brain Once, But Drowned It In Guinness'- can you?
What also strikes me is the plethora of songs about 'maids', but very few about women, leaving an almost direct leap from 'maid' to 'hag'- very strange.
Now I appreciate that a lot of tune titles may be born under the influence of drink, and that there can be a good dose of humour present- and possibly a little masculine getting even with an over-bearing matriarch figure somewhere.
Some will even maintain that tune titles are totally irrelevant anyway, and all that counts is the tune itself- but that debate is tangential to my point.
Personally, I feel they tell us something about attitudes, while leaving us to figure out what those attitudes actually are.
Is it time for a purge (along the lines of the predictable- though quite funny- 'Irish Washerperson')?- or is there a serious point in there somewhere that might be worth addressing?
P-K who really cares? The tunes are great and the titles bring a smirk or laugh to most people, in a time of political correctness may the tune names never be changed. Oh no...the feminists are coming to get me!!!
It was explained to me once that "Hag" was a slur on suspicious spinster "witches". I have no corroborating evidence on that. Perhaps not so much a macho thing as a "scared of creepy old ladies" thing.
"She turned me into a Newt! - but I got better..."
Perhaps some of the ren-faire wiccan crowd could answer this one?
At the Fiddle Frenzy last summer, after our teacher gave us "My wife's a drunkard", one of the women in the class asked, pointedly, if there wasn't another tune called "My husband's a drunkard". Our teacher blithely changed the subject.
It is worth noting, however that while traditional music may still be, in terms of sheer numbers, a male-dominated sphere (I don't know any exact - or even approximate - statistics, but I would hazard a guess that men still tip the balance), female musicians appear to me to be judged purely on their musical merits and seem to enjoy an equal status to their male counterparts.
To be clear, I meant the (feminist) radar that was very active linguistically in the States and England from the early 80's and lasted for a decade at least. Irish tune titles seem to be one area that escaped its attention and wrath!
Danny- I find 17 versions of 'Drag Her round The Road' in the Tunes section- is that telling us something?
Who can forget "I burried me wife and danced on her grave". Makes an interesting medley when placed with:
Haste to the wedding/Burried me wife and danced on her grave/My darling asleep
I don't think you necessarily have to be oversensitive, a third wave feminist, or overly concerned about political correctness to be wondering why a lot of tunes have vaguely misogynist-sounding names. True, some of them are good for a laugh, but I think it's an interesting question if you want to know something about gender constructs in the culture in which a lot of these were written. Wouldn't over-analyze it of course, but tunes, like anything else, aren't named in a vacuum, untouched by whatever social context they're written in. So there's something to think about if you're into that academic sh*te.
Silver- I'm not planning to write a thesis on it -it's just an idle thought about a minor phenomenon, but maybe historians of Irish music will look at it in the future and wonder.
Was it male exuberance, repressed sexuality, resentment of women's grip on the purse strings?- God only knows, as the Beach Boys so tellingly put it.
I have heard that "drag her round the road" refers to set dancing and that it is considered a sign of respect to dance on (or near) the grave of a well-regarded dancer. I also suspect that "Old Maids of Galway" may be such because there is a newer tune or version of the tune "Maids of Galway." I have also heard that "hag" is a mistranslation of a less editorial word in irish.
I'm not swearing that these things are all accurate, but I have heard them from reputable sources. I am just saying that it's probably not best to take everything at face value. Your suspicions may be right about some things and are certainly wrong about others.
My suspicion is that efforts to "cleanse" the tune titles will either fail or backfire.
Hmm, maybe the men had all the tune titles, but there are plenty of songs which reveal the opposite perspective. Indeed there's a whole bagful of songs about women who married worthless men or married an old git for his money.
Slipped under the radar? You mean you only just noticed?
Whenever I hear tune titles like this (and I'm a woman in case you didn't know) I'm imagining a whole lot of tired women doing all the work around the house and a bunch of whiny musicians down at the pub who refuse to grow up and get a real job complaining about their nagging wives at home.
In other words, these tune titles serve as a great warning to our own daughters not to marry a musician!
P-K, feel free to have good purge for yourself, but I don't think too many musicians will be willing to join you while you're at it. Like Silver Spear says, tune names aren't constructed in a social vacuum, and this is Irish music after all. It's a pretty conservative society, by the way.
P-K , thanks for this interesting thread. I find tune titles fascinating. I have never really thought about your aspect before.
I guess I don't reason in group-think. That is, just because there is an abscent minded woman does not mean that all women are. I also don't think all maids are wise (except on the mustard board).
I really liked the comments of wbajzek who put a positive spin on some titles. Come to think of it, maybe Pull The Knife And Stick It Again has to do with cutting ham in the rafters. Scatter the Mud and Rakes of Mallow have more to do with cleaning up with broom or removing leaves from the lawn.
Some years ago I used to play regularly with a female piper. At that moment in our lives we had each recently split up accrimoniously with our then partners, so a certain tune title was changed slightly to '' I buried my husband and danced on his grave''.
( I wonder if the macho bias in tune titles reflects the fact that years ago there were not many female musicians?)
While it doesn't even the score at all, there is a barndance that local Philadelphia legend, Kevin McGillian, plays which he calls "If There Were No Men". In a peevish mood, I once told another local musician when he announced said barndance, that it also goes by the name "A Perfect World"...in jest, of course!
I'm not seriously suggesting a purge of titles- that bit was a joke.
Robert Ryan points out that this is the music of a conservative society. Conservative, perhaps, but far from deferential, and one where a sense of humour has long been a survival mechanism in less po-faced sections of the community.
There is thus surely an element of devilment and nonsense in many titles, not just those referring to women. This may reflect the fact that the creators didn't really care too much what title they gave, and certainly didn't spend too much time thinking about it.
As I have already hinted, this thread stems from an idle (and tongue-in-cheek) observation given an airing: it is not a serious attempt to launch a campaign or a crusade.
Though I confess I find the wbajzek's ingenious expanation of 'dancing on her grave' a little hard to swallow. Can anyone corroborate that?
I suspect many of these are poor translations - possibly there's no direct equivalent in english, short of turning a single word into a whole phrase.
I know The Burnt Old Man would be better translated as The Withered Old Man, which makes a lot more sense, especially if you listen to the words that go with it.
I found one that made me laugh out loud in an American tunes list. The original title should be "As I Was Kissed Yestreen" (as I was kissed last night). Whoever wrote it down didn't recognise the last word, so it was listed as "As I Was Kissed Astern", which puts a whole new spin on the previous night's events.
And sbhikes:
Son: Da, when I grow up I want to be a musician
Father: Now, son, you know you can't do both...
Fair enough. I also have a vague recollection of having read something like that in Breathnach or some other work, though whether it was 'on' or 'near' the grave I can't remember. If that's the case, it makes it an almost devotional title, I suppose. Still strange, though, to me anyway.
I'm surprised that nobody's mentioned that the word "hag" can also mean "an area from which peat is dug". "Old hag you have killed me" might refer to some bloke who dropped dead after a heavy session cutting turfs for fuel.
“Woman of the House on the Floor” (tune #1370 here). I've been told that refers to the lady of the house (wife/mother) lying dead in her coffin. Not exactly a macho tune title, come to think of it.
I'm interested in this idea of mis-translation from the Irish being responsible for the preponderance of 'hags' in titles, creepy or otherwise.
What is the word in Irish that provides such a challenge to translators, the essence of whose job consists in rendering nuance?
Though of course, if you repeat it often enough, even 'hag' comes to sound like a term of endearment
Spurred by RR's reference to 'drunken hoors', I found this:-
Cute hoor
From Wikipedia
" In Hiberno-English, a cute hoor is a sly, cunning rogue...The word hoor (rhymes with "sure" or "newer") is a pronunciation spelling of an old pronunciation of the word whore, but the term cute hoor has no sexual connotations, referring to more general roguishness.
The term cute hoor is often used as a quasi-affectionate term, for someone whose utter unreliability and untrustworthiness is well known, seen through and treated almost as a joke."
So let's just substitute 'hoor' for 'hag' - then Bob's Yer Uncle and Fanny's Yer Aunt.
In terms of the use of hag in the title of tunes I am inclined to the argument proposed by Breandan Breathnach (1993) that frequently titles have no bearing on reality. As he suggests the "Irish Washerwoman" was never about a washerwoman and similarly "Geese in the Bog" was never about geese.
More likely is the suggestion raised by many that the title has a connection with the rhythm of the last bar of the tune. Or sometimes it is just a convenient title - just to simply label it. So in that case changing the title to a "mature woman" instead of "hag" could change the rhythm.
Yes, always nice to get a helping hand from the rhythm of the title- 'The Maid Behind The Bar' and 'Oyster Girl' spring to mind (OK, the latter may be English (??), but a cracking tune for all that- and it's in the Tunes section- liberal, or what!)
And just think what havoc a 'Little Old Lady'' could wreak if she were substituted for the ubiquitous 'hag' in the tag
I think a lot of people are losing the plot on this one. Firstly, a 'hag' is not necessarily a crippled and ugly old woman. A hag or a cailleach, its irish equivilent, was often used to describe a wise woman and is not necessarily degrading. It's meaning and use have just altered in time.
Second, i don't think PCisms existed when most of these tunes were written and thankfully in ireland we're still not PC-fanatics like in certain other countries....
Third, the music was previously dominated by men, but of course, women had their say as well. Look up the songs "Maids, never marry an old man", "well below the valley-o" and "An seandoinne doite" and you'll see a startling balance!
Macho Tune Titles?
Macho Tune Titles?
Old Hag, You Have Killed Me
The Hag With The Money/No Money/Purse/Fiddle
Hag in the Blanket/Corner
Hag at the Kiln/Churn/Spinning Wheel
The Foreign Hag, The Protestant Hag
Cheer Up, Old Hag
I Buried My Wife and Danced on her Grave
Now, maybe I'm being oversensitive here, but one might say that, unless the word 'hag' has some cosy meaning that eludes me, these titles indicate a degree of machismo in Irish music which has somehow hitherto slipped under the radar.
I've been trying to find some explanation for this one-sided phenomenon- something more than a minor lapse in civility, surely. After all, I can't think of too many tunes with titles like 'Get Your Own Dinner, You Sad Old Bastard' or 'He Had A Brain Once, But Drowned It In Guinness'- can you?
What also strikes me is the plethora of songs about 'maids', but very few about women, leaving an almost direct leap from 'maid' to 'hag'- very strange.
Now I appreciate that a lot of tune titles may be born under the influence of drink, and that there can be a good dose of humour present- and possibly a little masculine getting even with an over-bearing matriarch figure somewhere.
Some will even maintain that tune titles are totally irrelevant anyway, and all that counts is the tune itself- but that debate is tangential to my point.
Personally, I feel they tell us something about attitudes, while leaving us to figure out what those attitudes actually are.
Is it time for a purge (along the lines of the predictable- though quite funny- 'Irish Washerperson')?- or is there a serious point in there somewhere that might be worth addressing?
# Posted on November 22nd 2007 by P-K
Re: Macho Tune Titles?
P-K who really cares? The tunes are great and the titles bring a smirk or laugh to most people, in a time of political correctness may the tune names never be changed. Oh no...the feminists are coming to get me!!!
# Posted on November 22nd 2007 by fiddly dee fiddly doo oh how all take it so seriously!
Re: Macho Tune Titles?
It was explained to me once that "Hag" was a slur on suspicious spinster "witches". I have no corroborating evidence on that. Perhaps not so much a macho thing as a "scared of creepy old ladies" thing.
"She turned me into a Newt! - but I got better..."
Perhaps some of the ren-faire wiccan crowd could answer this one?
# Posted on November 22nd 2007 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: Macho Tune Titles?
Tombo- I'm not pc, nor a feminist, nor even an Australian- but I sure hope they catch you
# Posted on November 22nd 2007 by P-K
Re: Macho Tune Titles?
To maintain strict fairness gender-wise is our current climate of political correctness we often play Fanny Power and Wee Willy's Whiskers as a set.
Keith
# Posted on November 22nd 2007 by ocarolan
Re: Macho Tune Titles?
Doh! Should be "in" not "is" of course.
# Posted on November 22nd 2007 by ocarolan
Re: Macho Tune Titles?
"Absent-minded Woman."
"Old Maids Of Galway."
"How Much Has She Got?"
And, of course, as mentined above - "Buried My Wife, etc."
Where's the problem?
# Posted on November 22nd 2007 by Rook
Re: Macho Tune Titles?
At the Fiddle Frenzy last summer, after our teacher gave us "My wife's a drunkard", one of the women in the class asked, pointedly, if there wasn't another tune called "My husband's a drunkard". Our teacher blithely changed the subject.
# Posted on November 22nd 2007 by reedy grins
Re: Macho Tune Titles?
"a degree of machismo in Irish music which has somehow hitherto slipped under the radar."
?????
Who ever said that Irish music was politically correct?
# Posted on November 22nd 2007 by OrganicPeatCreature
Re: Macho Tune Titles?
drag her round the road?
# Posted on November 22nd 2007 by Nick Splease
Re: Macho Tune Titles?
It is worth noting, however that while traditional music may still be, in terms of sheer numbers, a male-dominated sphere (I don't know any exact - or even approximate - statistics, but I would hazard a guess that men still tip the balance), female musicians appear to me to be judged purely on their musical merits and seem to enjoy an equal status to their male counterparts.
Does anyone disagree?
# Posted on November 22nd 2007 by OrganicPeatCreature
Re: Macho Tune Titles?
Behind the Haystack, aka Squeeze Your Thighs
An Phis Fliuch, aka The Bridegroom's Delight, etc (see the Tunes section for more).
# Posted on November 22nd 2007 by lazyhound
Re: Macho Tune Titles?
NCRC- certainly I didn't say it.
To be clear, I meant the (feminist) radar that was very active linguistically in the States and England from the early 80's and lasted for a decade at least. Irish tune titles seem to be one area that escaped its attention and wrath!
Danny- I find 17 versions of 'Drag Her round The Road' in the Tunes section- is that telling us something?
# Posted on November 22nd 2007 by P-K
Re: Macho Tune Titles?
Who can forget "I burried me wife and danced on her grave". Makes an interesting medley when placed with:
Haste to the wedding/Burried me wife and danced on her grave/My darling asleep
(my appoligies if it was already mentioned.
# Posted on November 22nd 2007 by flyinfiddler
Re: Macho Tune Titles?
Oops, burried me wife was in the first post. Sorry 'bout that.
Well Happy Thanksgiving to those in the USA anyway.
# Posted on November 22nd 2007 by flyinfiddler
Re: Macho Tune Titles?
I don't think you necessarily have to be oversensitive, a third wave feminist, or overly concerned about political correctness to be wondering why a lot of tunes have vaguely misogynist-sounding names. True, some of them are good for a laugh, but I think it's an interesting question if you want to know something about gender constructs in the culture in which a lot of these were written. Wouldn't over-analyze it of course, but tunes, like anything else, aren't named in a vacuum, untouched by whatever social context they're written in. So there's something to think about if you're into that academic sh*te.
# Posted on November 22nd 2007 by TheSilverSpear
Re: Macho Tune Titles?
Off-topic, Trevor- that tune is about a cat left out in the rain (boy, am I glad I bought that Collins Gem Dictionary).
# Posted on November 22nd 2007 by P-K
Re: Macho Tune Titles?
Um, well, yes, if you say so
# Posted on November 22nd 2007 by lazyhound
Re: Macho Tune Titles?
Yes, in the days of old "hag" was a term for creepy old ladies that were assumed to be possibly connected with witchcraft. Or were just creepy...
It was also used alternatively, to describe an elderly lady from lower socio-economic stock who presented as broken down and world-worn...ie creepy
# Posted on November 22nd 2007 by meemtp
Re: Macho Tune Titles?
Silver- I'm not planning to write a thesis on it
-it's just an idle thought about a minor phenomenon, but maybe historians of Irish music will look at it in the future and wonder.
Was it male exuberance, repressed sexuality, resentment of women's grip on the purse strings?- God only knows, as the Beach Boys so tellingly put it.
# Posted on November 22nd 2007 by P-K
Re: Macho Tune Titles?
I have heard that "drag her round the road" refers to set dancing and that it is considered a sign of respect to dance on (or near) the grave of a well-regarded dancer. I also suspect that "Old Maids of Galway" may be such because there is a newer tune or version of the tune "Maids of Galway." I have also heard that "hag" is a mistranslation of a less editorial word in irish.
I'm not swearing that these things are all accurate, but I have heard them from reputable sources. I am just saying that it's probably not best to take everything at face value. Your suspicions may be right about some things and are certainly wrong about others.
My suspicion is that efforts to "cleanse" the tune titles will either fail or backfire.
# Posted on November 22nd 2007 by wbajzek
Re: Macho Tune Titles?
Hmm, maybe the men had all the tune titles, but there are plenty of songs which reveal the opposite perspective. Indeed there's a whole bagful of songs about women who married worthless men or married an old git for his money.
# Posted on November 22nd 2007 by Floss the Tethers
Re: Macho Tune Titles?
Slipped under the radar? You mean you only just noticed?
Whenever I hear tune titles like this (and I'm a woman in case you didn't know) I'm imagining a whole lot of tired women doing all the work around the house and a bunch of whiny musicians down at the pub who refuse to grow up and get a real job complaining about their nagging wives at home.
In other words, these tune titles serve as a great warning to our own daughters not to marry a musician!
# Posted on November 22nd 2007 by sbhikes
Re: Macho Tune Titles?
P-K, feel free to have good purge for yourself, but I don't think too many musicians will be willing to join you while you're at it. Like Silver Spear says, tune names aren't constructed in a social vacuum, and this is Irish music after all. It's a pretty conservative society, by the way.
# Posted on November 22nd 2007 by Robert Ryan
Re: Macho Tune Titles?
'The Woman with the Hairy Knees' does it for me as I knew a few in my day.
# Posted on November 22nd 2007 by Free Reed
Re: Macho Tune Titles?
P-K , thanks for this interesting thread. I find tune titles fascinating. I have never really thought about your aspect before.
I guess I don't reason in group-think. That is, just because there is an abscent minded woman does not mean that all women are. I also don't think all maids are wise (except on the mustard board).
I really liked the comments of wbajzek who put a positive spin on some titles. Come to think of it, maybe Pull The Knife And Stick It Again has to do with cutting ham in the rafters. Scatter the Mud and Rakes of Mallow have more to do with cleaning up with broom or removing leaves from the lawn.
# Posted on November 22nd 2007 by feardearg
Re: Macho Tune Titles?
Some years ago I used to play regularly with a female piper. At that moment in our lives we had each recently split up accrimoniously with our then partners, so a certain tune title was changed slightly to '' I buried my husband and danced on his grave''.
( I wonder if the macho bias in tune titles reflects the fact that years ago there were not many female musicians?)
# Posted on November 22nd 2007 by cathycook
Re: Macho Tune Titles?
While it doesn't even the score at all, there is a barndance that local Philadelphia legend, Kevin McGillian, plays which he calls "If There Were No Men". In a peevish mood, I once told another local musician when he announced said barndance, that it also goes by the name "A Perfect World"...in jest, of course!
# Posted on November 23rd 2007 by moria enya
Re: Macho Tune Titles?
Was it this barndance?
http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/1376
# Posted on November 23rd 2007 by wbajzek
Re: Macho Tune Titles?
I'm not seriously suggesting a purge of titles- that bit was a joke.
Robert Ryan points out that this is the music of a conservative society. Conservative, perhaps, but far from deferential, and one where a sense of humour has long been a survival mechanism in less po-faced sections of the community.
There is thus surely an element of devilment and nonsense in many titles, not just those referring to women. This may reflect the fact that the creators didn't really care too much what title they gave, and certainly didn't spend too much time thinking about it.
As I have already hinted, this thread stems from an idle (and tongue-in-cheek) observation given an airing: it is not a serious attempt to launch a campaign or a crusade.
Though I confess I find the wbajzek's ingenious expanation of 'dancing on her grave' a little hard to swallow. Can anyone corroborate that?
# Posted on November 23rd 2007 by P-K
Re: Macho Tune Titles?
I'd love to see the PP's face if he caught a bunch of drunken hoors celebrating someone's demise in such a fashion...
# Posted on November 23rd 2007 by Robert Ryan
Re: Macho Tune Titles?
I suspect many of these are poor translations - possibly there's no direct equivalent in english, short of turning a single word into a whole phrase.
I know The Burnt Old Man would be better translated as The Withered Old Man, which makes a lot more sense, especially if you listen to the words that go with it.
I found one that made me laugh out loud in an American tunes list. The original title should be "As I Was Kissed Yestreen" (as I was kissed last night). Whoever wrote it down didn't recognise the last word, so it was listed as "As I Was Kissed Astern", which puts a whole new spin on the previous night's events.
And sbhikes:
Son: Da, when I grow up I want to be a musician
Father: Now, son, you know you can't do both...
# Posted on November 23rd 2007 by bc_box_player
Re: Macho Tune Titles?
"Though I confess I find the wbajzek's ingenious expanation of 'dancing on her grave' a little hard to swallow. Can anyone corroborate that?"
I heard it from Catherine McEvoy.
# Posted on November 23rd 2007 by wbajzek
Re: Macho Tune Titles?
Fair enough. I also have a vague recollection of having read something like that in Breathnach or some other work, though whether it was 'on' or 'near' the grave I can't remember. If that's the case, it makes it an almost devotional title, I suppose. Still strange, though, to me anyway.
# Posted on November 23rd 2007 by P-K
Re: Macho Tune Titles?
I'm surprised that nobody's mentioned that the word "hag" can also mean "an area from which peat is dug". "Old hag you have killed me" might refer to some bloke who dropped dead after a heavy session cutting turfs for fuel.
Mightn't it?
# Posted on November 23rd 2007 by DavyR
Re: Macho Tune Titles?
Maybe 'Old Hag you have killed me' should be changed to..
'Lady from the mature age bracket in our society, you have terminated my life!"
doesn’t have the same ring to it though!
What about other difficuly titles like..
'The Jolly Tinker' or 'Never was Piping so Gay'
# Posted on November 23rd 2007 by Kess
Re: Macho Tune Titles?
“Woman of the House on the Floor” (tune #1370 here). I've been told that refers to the lady of the house (wife/mother) lying dead in her coffin. Not exactly a macho tune title, come to think of it.
# Posted on November 23rd 2007 by lazyhound
Re: Macho Tune Titles?
The title is actually ' Bean a'Ti ar an Urlar Obair' : The woman of the House on the Floor, working
# Posted on November 23rd 2007 by <>-_-_-<>
Re: Macho Tune Titles?
Not on her back, I hope?
# Posted on November 23rd 2007 by DavyR
Re: Macho Tune Titles?
I'm interested in this idea of mis-translation from the Irish being responsible for the preponderance of 'hags' in titles, creepy or otherwise.
What is the word in Irish that provides such a challenge to translators, the essence of whose job consists in rendering nuance?
Though of course, if you repeat it often enough, even 'hag' comes to sound like a term of endearment
# Posted on November 23rd 2007 by P-K
Re: Macho Tune Titles?
Kilfarboy, thanks for explaining that. I was misinformed.
# Posted on November 23rd 2007 by lazyhound
Re: Macho Tune Titles?
Spurred by RR's reference to 'drunken hoors', I found this:-
Cute hoor
From Wikipedia
" In Hiberno-English, a cute hoor is a sly, cunning rogue...The word hoor (rhymes with "sure" or "newer") is a pronunciation spelling of an old pronunciation of the word whore, but the term cute hoor has no sexual connotations, referring to more general roguishness.
The term cute hoor is often used as a quasi-affectionate term, for someone whose utter unreliability and untrustworthiness is well known, seen through and treated almost as a joke."
So let's just substitute 'hoor' for 'hag' - then Bob's Yer Uncle and Fanny's Yer Aunt.
# Posted on November 23rd 2007 by P-K
Re: Macho Tune Titles?
In terms of the use of hag in the title of tunes I am inclined to the argument proposed by Breandan Breathnach (1993) that frequently titles have no bearing on reality. As he suggests the "Irish Washerwoman" was never about a washerwoman and similarly "Geese in the Bog" was never about geese.
More likely is the suggestion raised by many that the title has a connection with the rhythm of the last bar of the tune. Or sometimes it is just a convenient title - just to simply label it. So in that case changing the title to a "mature woman" instead of "hag" could change the rhythm.
D
# Posted on November 23rd 2007 by Welshman
Re: Macho Tune Titles?
Yes, always nice to get a helping hand from the rhythm of the title- 'The Maid Behind The Bar' and 'Oyster Girl' spring to mind (OK, the latter may be English (??), but a cracking tune for all that- and it's in the Tunes section- liberal, or what!)
And just think what havoc a 'Little Old Lady'' could wreak if she were substituted for the ubiquitous 'hag' in the tag
# Posted on November 23rd 2007 by P-K
Re: Macho Tune Titles?
I think a lot of people are losing the plot on this one. Firstly, a 'hag' is not necessarily a crippled and ugly old woman. A hag or a cailleach, its irish equivilent, was often used to describe a wise woman and is not necessarily degrading. It's meaning and use have just altered in time.
Second, i don't think PCisms existed when most of these tunes were written and thankfully in ireland we're still not PC-fanatics like in certain other countries....
Third, the music was previously dominated by men, but of course, women had their say as well. Look up the songs "Maids, never marry an old man", "well below the valley-o" and "An seandoinne doite" and you'll see a startling balance!
# Posted on December 7th 2007 by r o'm
Re: Macho Tune Titles?
“The Hole in the Hedge” - is it my imagination working overtime, or is there an element of ambiguity, or even a double entendre, in that tune title?
# Posted on December 8th 2007 by lazyhound
Re: Macho Tune Titles?
Thanks, r o'm, for introducing us (me, anyway) to the word 'cailleach', and its different interpretations.
And yes, Trevor, maybe you are getting a bit carried away on that one- lay off the Jilly Cooper novels for a while!
# Posted on December 9th 2007 by P-K