Hello everyone,
I'm new to this group but it sounds like a great bunch. Hey, would anyone know what to do if your teaching tinwhistle to a bunch of ex classical musicians and they ask for the sheet music? irish music is not all about the "dots" and I think if i gave it to them they would just stick to the "dots".
Any suggestions?
However, being classically trained & now learning primarily by ear, I think the visualization of a tune's structure is important to begin with when dealing with classically trained musicians & their fundamental understanding of ITM. If you deprive them of *all* the dots, it's like starting with Helen Keller, & it will be a lonngggg time before they get the connection between signing into their palm & understanding what 'water' is. Contrarily, if you tell an English speaker, well French is like any Romantic language, so look for these basic similarities in verb structure, declension etc, I think the language comes much more easily, without necessarily looking at a textbook, but also encouraging through immersion & listening by ear.
Uh oh. I've reintroduced the language metaphor. Apologies in advance. Thank god I'm mostly off nappies! Soon I"ll move on to junior high.
No, no, your right, Em. Weaning them off is probably kinder (hey - you can tell who's a recent dad here!) and more of the class will return next lesson.
BTW, we call them Romance languages this side of the pond.
Also. it wouldn't hurt to send them home with a recording of the tune they are working on and the one they will be working on next, so they can start getting the stuff to seep in. It's soooo much easier when you can hum the tune already.
Fadah, make really sure that they truly understand and buy into "you must learn by ear to get this stuff down right". Even if they have to cheat sometimes and look at sheet music, if they buy into at least the theory of that, they'll probably come out right enough. If they stubbornly stick to sheet music and basically refuse to try any learning by ear, they probably won't. There's exceptions of course, but that's been my experience.
I think possibly for these classically trained musicians that it may be more important to learn by heart than to learn by ear.
Try and get them to understand that the dots can be a useful tool for the classically trained musician, but only a tool. Many classically trained musicians use the dots as a crutch. The dots are not the music. They must learn the tune by heart. They have to be able to sing it in their heads all the way through.
Maybe let them take the music home to learn the tune (with a recording) but don't allow them to bring the dots to lessons, and certainly not to sessions.
I started reading music at about age 4. It's like reading printed words for me, in some ways. It's important also to emphasize that a player should learn to memorize the entire tune, but not kinesthetically (ie: which fingering follows which one). For someone to whom reading music is second nature, it's good to make sure they're learning what Jesse Langan once called "learning the story of the tune" rather than what note comes after what note. But if they're just starting out, I wouldn't worry about that too much.
As a classically trained musician myself, just now really trying to learn ITM, I may have some insights into this situation.
I could read music at 8, and I love reading music to this day. I can look at a page and hear the song in my head, but it's the technical aspects I'm getting this way and not the heart of the song itself. Sheet music and ITM are not necessarily incompatible. For me, I hear a tune I like, listen to it until I can whistle it, find the sheet music, spend 3 days or so memorizing the notes, but then I put away the music and it's only at this point that I truly learn the tune with soul. This may sound like extra work to those of you who can hear a tune and play the notes immediately, but I'm having to learn that bit. When I do play with the sheet music, though, I'm trying to play like the tune I've heard - I don't just play the written notes as they are on the page.
This well may be a transitional period for me. I'd love to be like many of you and be able to better learn by ear, but I don't think I'll ever disparage written music.
As for those new learners, they are probably like me and have written music ingrained in their little brains. When I think of the songs I know by heart, I can actually close my eyes and see a musical score in my head. Give them time to learn more by ear, use sheet music for the useful tool it can be - I like the idea of giving them music for home practice but not in the group. Although, I think you should give them the music, play a tune through yourself first, play it once through with them, then send them home with it. This way, they'll have heard the tune correctly, played through it once, and I think this will help them in the long run.
A little while ago I went to a classical concert given by the Emerald Ensemble, a Bristol-based group of a dozen or so string professionals. They stood (except for the 2 seated cellists) in an arc facing the audience and during the course of the 2-hour concert there was not a scrap of music paper to be seen among the performers - a rarity in classical orchestras. The performance had a vitality and feeling of freedom lacking in some more conventional performances.
Their director, a young concert violinist (who, I am told, played fiddle in a rock band in his teens) is very soon taking up the post of conductor of the chamber orchestra I play in. I suspect we're going to be in for an interesting and exciting time.
Trevor
A couple of years ago I went to a rehearsal of the Albuquerque (New Mexico) symphony orchestra at which Yo Yo Ma was the featured cello soloist. During the whole rehearsal, Yo Yo Ma had no music whatsoever. He played the whole thing by heart. Problem was, when the group stopped on command of the conductor, to backtrack and replay a section, the conductor had to reach over and show Yo Yo where they were to pick it up again. At one point the baton flew out of the conductor's hand, just missing Yo Yo, who picked it up and handed it back. Just so that turnabout would be fair play, some time later Yo Yo *accidently* on purpose allowed his bow to fly out of his hand so that the conductor could return the favor of picking it up. Quite a laugh was had by all in attendance.
Chris Knox
Yes Zina, written music is a written language that allows the music to be shared in a way it otherwise could not be. We here are all madly typing away at our keyboards to share ideas which we could not otherwise do unless we could all speak to each other. In this day and age, someone who can't read or write is at a serious disadvantage, and will miss out on a lot of cultural richness, and a person who only reads but can't express him/herself articulately with the spoken word will also miss out. The ability to read music should be viewed as an adjunct to what started as an *oral* or performance tradition. Those of us who read music have access to the totality of any and all music that's ever been written down, but we still need to play with others to get the feeling. Those of us who learned to play all by ear will find it a mind-expanding experience to learn the language of the written notes.
Personally, when I'm stranded on a desert island, I'll be glad I have at least four things. My whistle, my Oneill's book, my ability to read music, and my sweetheart... not necessarily in that order.
Chris Knox
Yes, yes, and yes! You're all right, of course. How many of you ITM lovers are also Suzuki teachers, I wonder?
I am, and I've found that both children and adults learn by using all the resources available to them, from their senses and their intellect(s). By using sight-memory, hearing, touch AND the kinesthetic sense, these all reinforce each other a we learn a tune.The repetition that comes from playing the same tunes in private practice, in rehearsals and performance give musicians of every tradition a way to do their art.
Wow, I envy you, Trevor - nothing like that seems to happen here in Toronto. If it does, I've missed it so far, and would love if someone can tell me where and who, and how I could get in on it!
I've seen the occasional guitarist playing from music in a session, but only to get the chords. When they're more advanced they don't need that prop - their ears should then tell them what chords are needed. Come to think of it, I've never seen a bodhr
I think the idea that someone able to read has access to all music that's ever been written is ridicolous. The staves gives us a blind idea of what the REAL music is, both in trad and in classical music. Of course reading music can be useful, but if you don't know a given tradition (being it Irish classical, romanian or whatever), is absolutely useless.
See ye folks
Davide
I have on a bookshelf in front of me the complete works of Shakespeare. Not particularly easy reading, but if I go to a performance of one of the plays where the director, actors and others will have put in hundreds of man-hours of thought and preparation, then the printed word comes to life. Same with music. I've just received in the mail the orchestral cello part of Gilbert & Sullivan's "Mikado", in which I'll be playing in the orchestra pit for a fortnight's run in May. At the moment, a lot of that cello part doesn't seem particularly interesting in isolation, but I do know that at the dress rehearsal it will all come together and take off - says he, with fingers crossed Printed words and music are only shadowy pointers to the reality, but without them most of that reality would forever be unknown and inaccessible to the vast majority.
Trevor
For a practical thing, make your students practice arpeggios and the scales of D and G in various ways like DEF|EFG|FGA|GAB|ABc... and DEFD|EFGE|FGAF|GABG...
As you know, many traditional tunes are the combinations of sclaes and arpeggios, so if they get used to the basic patterns of the tunes on the whistle, they can easily pick up the melodies by ear. But, in my opinion, the tutor must show the fingering to the beginners of the instrument.
I recommend Manx Air "Song of the Kelpie" and fairly popular jig "Kerfunten" as the simple, nice tunes for the beginners of the whistle. I'm sure many of the students will realize they can dispense with the sheet music.
A big, possibly the major, problem with learning tunes by ear is not so much remembering them later on but recalling them. We've all had the experience of the mind going blank when we try to think of a tune we're quite certain we know, but nothing comes until someone plays the first 1 or 2 bars, and then it's all there and we can play it. It's as if the tune is behind a locked door and all we need is a key to unlock the door.
So what I suggest is that a beginner, whether or not from a classical background, should be encouraged to learn and use the ABC notation, not only for obvious reasons when there are websites such as this around, but also so that he/she could keep a little notebook in which are entered the name of each tune as it is taught/learnt, its type (reel, jig etc), what key it's in, and the first 2 bars of the A part and the B part in ABC notation. The brief ABC will be the key that unlocks the door and lets the tune into the forefront of the mind again.
I suggest 2 bars, because many tunes share the same opening bar, and the first 2 bars of the B part because that is sometimes more awkward to recollect than the A.
Regarding the key the tune is in I'll be pragmatic here and say to just put down the number of flats or sharps. This is because the key/mode of many tunes is often difficult to work out, and all we need to know is the key signature.
I know the lead fiddle in a ceilidh band who keeps such a notebook, even though she has a tremendous repertoire, because when playing for dancers she can't afford to make mistakes. She also includes in her notes the number of bars in the tune, which is important for set dancing.
Trevor
As a classically trained & formerly professional flute player weaning herself "off the dots", I see the pluses and minuses of both approaches. Since I've had my head filled with the minuses for so long by my fiddle-playing pal & other session buddies , I do truly appreciate the value of learning by ear, and now make a point of NOT taking The Big Book of Dots to sessions with me.
But I feel compelled to throw in what I think is a very important pitch for the dots, and this is a psychological one: a musican who's made a career of sight-reading Shostakovich will probably get just a wee bit impatient at not being able to pick up a tune fast. (Especially when he or she could probably read, and play, Music For A Found Harmonium at reasonable tempo, on the first pass (not correctly ornamentationwise, mind you) but they'd nail the tune nonetheless, because that's what classical musicians are trained to do.)
And I personally have taught myself LOTS of tunes from the dots. We only have one session a week here, we have lots of tunes to cover, I had a huge learning curve to catch up with, and I like to be able to play as much as possible. So the dots have proven invaluable for "getting up to speed" on my own, especially without time or budget for, or availability of, recordings to listen to.
One other plus: it's kind of cool to be the one person in a session or workshop who CAN teach the others a totally new tune, or help them over a "brain fart" about one they think they know, because I can read. A guy brought in sheet music to "The Floating Crowbar" the other day, and because I could read it, I could play it for the other guys to learn and now, bingo, we have another tune.
So I agree: the dots are a crutch, but if you view them as a way to get people playing faster and better and more enthusiastically, they have value. It's all about balance. If you can read and it helps you, go for it. Just make sure you also learn how to listen.
The dots are a tool, and a very valuable one. The dots are the universal language of musicians, and they allow us to preserve our creations, when they're too long to teach by ear, or when people are not within hearing distance. To think the dots are bad would be like thinking writing is bad. Sure, writing a message on this board is not the same as interacting with you in person, but is it a bad thing? I think not.
teaching whistle to Mozart
teaching whistle to Mozart
Hello everyone,
I'm new to this group but it sounds like a great bunch. Hey, would anyone know what to do if your teaching tinwhistle to a bunch of ex classical musicians and they ask for the sheet music? irish music is not all about the "dots" and I think if i gave it to them they would just stick to the "dots".
Any suggestions?
# Posted on April 17th 2003 by fadah
Mozart would have it sussed and be teaching the craic back to his teachers, after a couple of lessons!
F
# Posted on April 17th 2003 by Rudall the time
Re: teaching whistle to Mozart
Danny, I agree.
However, being classically trained & now learning primarily by ear, I think the visualization of a tune's structure is important to begin with when dealing with classically trained musicians & their fundamental understanding of ITM. If you deprive them of *all* the dots, it's like starting with Helen Keller, & it will be a lonngggg time before they get the connection between signing into their palm & understanding what 'water' is. Contrarily, if you tell an English speaker, well French is like any Romantic language, so look for these basic similarities in verb structure, declension etc, I think the language comes much more easily, without necessarily looking at a textbook, but also encouraging through immersion & listening by ear.
Uh oh. I've reintroduced the language metaphor. Apologies in advance. Thank god I'm mostly off nappies! Soon I"ll move on to junior high.
# Posted on April 17th 2003 by emily_bmore
Re: teaching whistle to Mozart
No, no, your right, Em. Weaning them off is probably kinder (hey - you can tell who's a recent dad here!) and more of the class will return next lesson.
BTW, we call them Romance languages this side of the pond.
Danny.
# Posted on April 17th 2003 by Rudall the time
Re: teaching whistle to Mozart
LOL touche' mon ami!
# Posted on April 17th 2003 by emily_bmore
Re: teaching whistle to Mozart
Also. it wouldn't hurt to send them home with a recording of the tune they are working on and the one they will be working on next, so they can start getting the stuff to seep in. It's soooo much easier when you can hum the tune already.
# Posted on April 17th 2003 by Andee
Re: teaching whistle to Mozart
Fadah, make really sure that they truly understand and buy into "you must learn by ear to get this stuff down right". Even if they have to cheat sometimes and look at sheet music, if they buy into at least the theory of that, they'll probably come out right enough. If they stubbornly stick to sheet music and basically refuse to try any learning by ear, they probably won't. There's exceptions of course, but that's been my experience.
Zina
# Posted on April 17th 2003 by Zina Lee
Re: teaching whistle to Mozart
Danny, the thing is, most classical musicians were probably already fluent sight readers by the age of 8.
# Posted on April 18th 2003 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: teaching whistle to Mozart
I think possibly for these classically trained musicians that it may be more important to learn by heart than to learn by ear.
Try and get them to understand that the dots can be a useful tool for the classically trained musician, but only a tool. Many classically trained musicians use the dots as a crutch. The dots are not the music. They must learn the tune by heart. They have to be able to sing it in their heads all the way through.
Maybe let them take the music home to learn the tune (with a recording) but don't allow them to bring the dots to lessons, and certainly not to sessions.
Just a thought.
# Posted on April 18th 2003 by Tusong200
Re: teaching whistle to Mozart
I started reading music at about age 4. It's like reading printed words for me, in some ways. It's important also to emphasize that a player should learn to memorize the entire tune, but not kinesthetically (ie: which fingering follows which one). For someone to whom reading music is second nature, it's good to make sure they're learning what Jesse Langan once called "learning the story of the tune" rather than what note comes after what note. But if they're just starting out, I wouldn't worry about that too much.
zls
# Posted on April 18th 2003 by Zina Lee
Re: teaching whistle to Mozart
As a classically trained musician myself, just now really trying to learn ITM, I may have some insights into this situation.
I could read music at 8, and I love reading music to this day. I can look at a page and hear the song in my head, but it's the technical aspects I'm getting this way and not the heart of the song itself. Sheet music and ITM are not necessarily incompatible. For me, I hear a tune I like, listen to it until I can whistle it, find the sheet music, spend 3 days or so memorizing the notes, but then I put away the music and it's only at this point that I truly learn the tune with soul. This may sound like extra work to those of you who can hear a tune and play the notes immediately, but I'm having to learn that bit. When I do play with the sheet music, though, I'm trying to play like the tune I've heard - I don't just play the written notes as they are on the page.
This well may be a transitional period for me. I'd love to be like many of you and be able to better learn by ear, but I don't think I'll ever disparage written music.
As for those new learners, they are probably like me and have written music ingrained in their little brains. When I think of the songs I know by heart, I can actually close my eyes and see a musical score in my head. Give them time to learn more by ear, use sheet music for the useful tool it can be - I like the idea of giving them music for home practice but not in the group. Although, I think you should give them the music, play a tune through yourself first, play it once through with them, then send them home with it. This way, they'll have heard the tune correctly, played through it once, and I think this will help them in the long run.
Eric
# Posted on April 18th 2003 by Jayhawk
Re: teaching whistle to Mozart
A little while ago I went to a classical concert given by the Emerald Ensemble, a Bristol-based group of a dozen or so string professionals. They stood (except for the 2 seated cellists) in an arc facing the audience and during the course of the 2-hour concert there was not a scrap of music paper to be seen among the performers - a rarity in classical orchestras. The performance had a vitality and feeling of freedom lacking in some more conventional performances.
Their director, a young concert violinist (who, I am told, played fiddle in a rock band in his teens) is very soon taking up the post of conductor of the chamber orchestra I play in. I suspect we're going to be in for an interesting and exciting time.
Trevor
# Posted on April 18th 2003 by Trevor Jennings
Re: teaching whistle to Mozart
A couple of years ago I went to a rehearsal of the Albuquerque (New Mexico) symphony orchestra at which Yo Yo Ma was the featured cello soloist. During the whole rehearsal, Yo Yo Ma had no music whatsoever. He played the whole thing by heart. Problem was, when the group stopped on command of the conductor, to backtrack and replay a section, the conductor had to reach over and show Yo Yo where they were to pick it up again. At one point the baton flew out of the conductor's hand, just missing Yo Yo, who picked it up and handed it back. Just so that turnabout would be fair play, some time later Yo Yo *accidently* on purpose allowed his bow to fly out of his hand so that the conductor could return the favor of picking it up. Quite a laugh was had by all in attendance.
Chris Knox
# Posted on April 18th 2003 by unique
Yes Zina, written music is a written language that allows the music to be shared in a way it otherwise could not be. We here are all madly typing away at our keyboards to share ideas which we could not otherwise do unless we could all speak to each other. In this day and age, someone who can't read or write is at a serious disadvantage, and will miss out on a lot of cultural richness, and a person who only reads but can't express him/herself articulately with the spoken word will also miss out. The ability to read music should be viewed as an adjunct to what started as an *oral* or performance tradition. Those of us who read music have access to the totality of any and all music that's ever been written down, but we still need to play with others to get the feeling. Those of us who learned to play all by ear will find it a mind-expanding experience to learn the language of the written notes.
Personally, when I'm stranded on a desert island, I'll be glad I have at least four things. My whistle, my Oneill's book, my ability to read music, and my sweetheart... not necessarily in that order.
Chris Knox
# Posted on April 18th 2003 by unique
Re: teaching whistle to Mozart
Yes, yes, and yes! You're all right, of course. How many of you ITM lovers are also Suzuki teachers, I wonder?
I am, and I've found that both children and adults learn by using all the resources available to them, from their senses and their intellect(s). By using sight-memory, hearing, touch AND the kinesthetic sense, these all reinforce each other a we learn a tune.The repetition that comes from playing the same tunes in private practice, in rehearsals and performance give musicians of every tradition a way to do their art.
Wow, I envy you, Trevor - nothing like that seems to happen here in Toronto. If it does, I've missed it so far, and would love if someone can tell me where and who, and how I could get in on it!
Got to go and play my violin now!
Helen
# Posted on April 18th 2003 by fiddlefingers
Re: teaching whistle to Mozart
I've seen the occasional guitarist playing from music in a session, but only to get the chords. When they're more advanced they don't need that prop - their ears should then tell them what chords are needed. Come to think of it, I've never seen a bodhr
# Posted on April 18th 2003 by Trevor Jennings
Re: teaching whistle to Mozart
I think the idea that someone able to read has access to all music that's ever been written is ridicolous. The staves gives us a blind idea of what the REAL music is, both in trad and in classical music. Of course reading music can be useful, but if you don't know a given tradition (being it Irish classical, romanian or whatever), is absolutely useless.
See ye folks
Davide
# Posted on April 18th 2003 by nutsmuggler
Re: teaching whistle to Mozart
I have on a bookshelf in front of me the complete works of Shakespeare. Not particularly easy reading, but if I go to a performance of one of the plays where the director, actors and others will have put in hundreds of man-hours of thought and preparation, then the printed word comes to life. Same with music. I've just received in the mail the orchestral cello part of Gilbert & Sullivan's "Mikado", in which I'll be playing in the orchestra pit for a fortnight's run in May. At the moment, a lot of that cello part doesn't seem particularly interesting in isolation, but I do know that at the dress rehearsal it will all come together and take off - says he, with fingers crossed
Printed words and music are only shadowy pointers to the reality, but without them most of that reality would forever be unknown and inaccessible to the vast majority.
Trevor
# Posted on April 18th 2003 by Trevor Jennings
Re: teaching whistle to Mozart
For a practical thing, make your students practice arpeggios and the scales of D and G in various ways like DEF|EFG|FGA|GAB|ABc... and DEFD|EFGE|FGAF|GABG...
As you know, many traditional tunes are the combinations of sclaes and arpeggios, so if they get used to the basic patterns of the tunes on the whistle, they can easily pick up the melodies by ear. But, in my opinion, the tutor must show the fingering to the beginners of the instrument.
I recommend Manx Air "Song of the Kelpie" and fairly popular jig "Kerfunten" as the simple, nice tunes for the beginners of the whistle. I'm sure many of the students will realize they can dispense with the sheet music.
# Posted on April 18th 2003 by slainte
Re: teaching whistle to Mozart
A big, possibly the major, problem with learning tunes by ear is not so much remembering them later on but recalling them. We've all had the experience of the mind going blank when we try to think of a tune we're quite certain we know, but nothing comes until someone plays the first 1 or 2 bars, and then it's all there and we can play it. It's as if the tune is behind a locked door and all we need is a key to unlock the door.
So what I suggest is that a beginner, whether or not from a classical background, should be encouraged to learn and use the ABC notation, not only for obvious reasons when there are websites such as this around, but also so that he/she could keep a little notebook in which are entered the name of each tune as it is taught/learnt, its type (reel, jig etc), what key it's in, and the first 2 bars of the A part and the B part in ABC notation. The brief ABC will be the key that unlocks the door and lets the tune into the forefront of the mind again.
I suggest 2 bars, because many tunes share the same opening bar, and the first 2 bars of the B part because that is sometimes more awkward to recollect than the A.
Regarding the key the tune is in I'll be pragmatic here and say to just put down the number of flats or sharps. This is because the key/mode of many tunes is often difficult to work out, and all we need to know is the key signature.
I know the lead fiddle in a ceilidh band who keeps such a notebook, even though she has a tremendous repertoire, because when playing for dancers she can't afford to make mistakes. She also includes in her notes the number of bars in the tune, which is important for set dancing.
Trevor
# Posted on April 18th 2003 by Trevor Jennings
Re: teaching whistle to Mozart
Trev, that's not a problem with learning tunes by ear, that's my Alzheimer's setting in, dude.
Sometimes it just takes three notes, and suddenly it's there. I'm like that on so many tunes, it's embarassing.
zls
# Posted on April 18th 2003 by Zina Lee
Re: teaching whistle to Mozart
As a classically trained & formerly professional flute player weaning herself "off the dots", I see the pluses and minuses of both approaches. Since I've had my head filled with the minuses for so long by my fiddle-playing pal & other session buddies
, I do truly appreciate the value of learning by ear, and now make a point of NOT taking The Big Book of Dots to sessions with me.
But I feel compelled to throw in what I think is a very important pitch for the dots, and this is a psychological one: a musican who's made a career of sight-reading Shostakovich will probably get just a wee bit impatient at not being able to pick up a tune fast. (Especially when he or she could probably read, and play, Music For A Found Harmonium at reasonable tempo, on the first pass (not correctly ornamentationwise, mind you) but they'd nail the tune nonetheless, because that's what classical musicians are trained to do.)
And I personally have taught myself LOTS of tunes from the dots. We only have one session a week here, we have lots of tunes to cover, I had a huge learning curve to catch up with, and I like to be able to play as much as possible. So the dots have proven invaluable for "getting up to speed" on my own, especially without time or budget for, or availability of, recordings to listen to.
One other plus: it's kind of cool to be the one person in a session or workshop who CAN teach the others a totally new tune, or help them over a "brain fart" about one they think they know, because I can read. A guy brought in sheet music to "The Floating Crowbar" the other day, and because I could read it, I could play it for the other guys to learn and now, bingo, we have another tune.
So I agree: the dots are a crutch, but if you view them as a way to get people playing faster and better and more enthusiastically, they have value. It's all about balance. If you can read and it helps you, go for it. Just make sure you also learn how to listen.
cat.
# Posted on April 21st 2003 by cwildeky
Re: teaching whistle to Mozart
The dots are a tool, and a very valuable one. The dots are the universal language of musicians, and they allow us to preserve our creations, when they're too long to teach by ear, or when people are not within hearing distance. To think the dots are bad would be like thinking writing is bad. Sure, writing a message on this board is not the same as interacting with you in person, but is it a bad thing? I think not.
# Posted on April 21st 2003 by glauber
Re: teaching whistle to Mozart
Much better put, glauber! Thanks!
# Posted on April 22nd 2003 by cwildeky
Re: teaching whistle to Mozart
Thanks everyone for the great comments. I'll defenitely take it all into account.
Dom
# Posted on April 24th 2003 by fadah