most people have the courtesy to ask if they can take photographs,,I, do not mind at all,providing Iam asked,
Ifeel it is discourteous if people do not ask,particuarly if they are using the photographs for a magazine,or for any other commercial purpose.
Ialso feel the same way about recording,Idont mind if Iam asked,and if the recording is not for commercial purposes.
I feel it can also disrupt a session,if the photographer is not discreet,how do others feel?Dick Miles
Re: photographing itm musicians without permission
Photographing people who play music in a public place does not formally require their permission. Asking permission would be the courteous thing to do maybe but it will in most instances make them instantly camera aware and will, if you're looking for a candid shot, spoil the pic.
Re: photographing itm musicians without permission
I can't say it bothers me - except if it was right in your face and putting you off. We do occasionally get tourists into the Blythe even down here in Deepest Sarff London, who take snaps. They are generally reasonably polite - often much more so than the denizens of geezers, football fans, loudmouths, alkies and various other manifestations of human detritus which inhabit Catford drinking dens.
Re: photographing itm musicians without permission
For the past 15 years I've had a regular gig in a pub on what could be described as a tourist area in SE Ireland. Over that period I, and the various musicians that I've played with, have had hundreds of photos and videos taken during our performance. We were even featured playing in the pub for a English TV ad for an author's book and for an introductory piece for S4C (Welsh TV) on Irish Beef Exports. Many people will ask permission to take photos but many just blast away. From my point of view I couldn't care less one way or the other as long as they don't throw glasses at us. We got a few Bob for the TV thingy, but in most cases it may be the offer of a drink, which is a shame for me 'cos I only drink water when I'm playing.
Re: photographing itm musicians without permission
I like to take a few photos of festival sessions as a reminder of family and friends who I don't see so often. I don't use a flash in order not to disrupt the flow. I feel it would be more intrusive to ask everybody rather than just get on with it, but I don't often take photos of sessions where I don't know anybody. I have no problem at all with other people taking photos as long as they don't use too much flash.
Re: photographing itm musicians without permission
In my experience, most punters dont ask permission, and when someone does, it surprises us so much that we're speechless. One of my regular playing mates thinks that our photos now occupy a place of pride on at least half the mantlepieces (do you have mantlepieces?) in America.
Anyway we find that making a funny face or even "getting back at them" by having a camera ourselves, raises the fun element of a session to a new high!
Re: photographing itm musicians without permission
I'd be inclined to just take pics quietly, avoid flash etc. as outlined above. But whatever about adults and I have absolutely no objection to people taking pics of me, if they want to .... you'd want to have your wits about you if you try taking shots of children these days in Ireland in any activity. It's hard to believe how quickly this country and societies attitude has changed in this respect, maybe it was something to do with all the clerical abuse scandals.
Fact is in many places outside your own home, you may be prepared to be challenged if you try to take pictures of minors, even your own children. It's got to the stage that even when your own kids are involved in local sporting or community activities that you can't take pictures but have to buy the 'official' video. Hmmm.
Re: photographing itm musicians without permission
Some years ago now, I entered a busking competition in Durrus, Co. Cork, and was joined by an old fiddler from the village, Jamesie Kingston. Of course a few people took pictures of us, and I don’t mind tourists photographing me busking, as long as they put something in the hat However a few years later Jamesie and I were back in Durrus busking together again for the festival, and a fellow came up and said something like, ‘’I recognize you. You’re photo was in the Rough Guide to Ireland a few years ago’’. Now By that time it was a different edition of the Rough Guide out, so I couldn’t check this, but if our photo was used for commercial purposes it might have been nice to be asked our permission, or maybe even be sent a complimentary copy of the photo or the book. It’s a bit different from a tourist just taking a snap for their photo album.
Re: photographing itm musicians without permission
They may not know who you are to ask permission for use on a cover etc. down the line, they may have not had the thought to use it when they took the pix. Legally, should you persue it, their ignorance is no excuse. You can, in US anyway, contact them and ask them to stop using it, or to give you a credit line on future printings. You can also, though it may cost in legal fees if they do not agree, do a "cease and desist" if the picture really bothers you. They may in that case, if a book, have to trash the whole printing, call in copies from stores, and reprint it with another cover. If it is a product someone is making a lot of money on, you may be able to request a usage fee. Not likely you'd get it on most books, and you would have to prove the picture of YOU is what is selling the book and key to the profits. If it is a picture you think tarnishes your image somehow you can seek damages, but it is difficult and lengthy and costly to go this route. I know people who have done it with artwork they didn't like, made them look bad they thought, and it was reproduced without authorization thinking the artist would never see it.
I have personally had my artwork stolen (too many times) and one time used on a brochure. I ordinarily would have called and said to pay my usual fee and we'll forget it, but in this case, I had sold similar artwork for reproduction on a brochure of someone else's company in the same field. They saw the other company's cover and threatened to sue me for licensing it twice, when they paid for an original look, thinking I broke the contract not to use it again for a year for reproduction licensing. The 2nd party had bought a similar piece of my art in an art store and ignored the copyright notice, complete with contact info. It was so similar it looked the same to most eyes, so I had to do a "cease & desist" and they had to destroy all copies. The whole episode was not fun in the slightest and I would never recommend doing it unless the picture really and truly bothered you. It is not easy and is a very stressful process.
The same "visual copyright" rules apply for photos and their uses, but whether it is causing you harm is a real consideration. In my case it would have so I went ahead. I would be sued by party #1 if I did not get the cease and desist from party #2.
I would think most people might be pleased to see themselves playing music on a book cover, but technically they can contact the publisher for removal or ask for a name credit on future printings. Most would be very aggreable.
Bands pretty much expect to be photographed and who knows where it ends up, but they may like the publicity, especailly if named.
I sometimes take a short video at our sessions and have asked if people want to go onto YouTube, I'd never post it without permission, and letting them see if first.
At a concert, it is polite to ask if they wouldn't mind some pictures taken, and offer to email a copy if digital. No one I know has ever said no.
If used on a book and they know you or how to contact you, it is always acceptable to request a few copies. If you were not contacted for use, call them or write them and ask for a few copies if you want.
Re: photographing itm musicians without permission
We don't care at all. In fact, we take it as a compliment. All I ask is that they give us time to put away the music stands and zimmer frames before pressing the shutter.
Re: photographing itm musicians without permission
Thanks for all that info. Iris, as it happens I would have been pleased to appear in the book, but it would have been nice to be asked and be credited in the book as to who we were. As it was I only found out a few years later that our photo had probably been used, and that edition had been updated with a more recent one so too late to check if they really did use our photo and request a copy or I'm quite distinctive in appearance and so was Jamesie,(sadly he's dead now) so I feel fairly certain that it was our photo.
Re: photographing itm musicians without permission
I find a lot of the more 'professional' style photographers to be very intrusive and lacking coourtesy. I once had a photographer take shots of me at a festival when I was just sitting on the street with a few friends, after taking about ten photos and making me very uncomfortable she then came up to me and asked if she could use them in a local newspaper. I nearly told her to go screw herself but just let her away with it.
Someone taking the odd photo for personal use is no problem. What does bother rme though is professional style photographers with their big cameras, strong flashes and countless photos with loud clicks. I've come across a few people like that and they have absolutely no sense of courtesy, even if they have permission to take photos they overdo it by lining musicians up with their cameras as a hunter would line up its prey!!
Even worse than photographers are these tourist types who come in with their video cameras and film a session, then post it on youttube without even asking permission from the musicians.
I feel that a session is a moment in time that should remain in the memory rather than as a shoddy film on youtube.
Re: photographing itm musicians without permission
Where i grew up, taking a photo without express permission could result in spontaneous confiscation and destruction of said camera! Asking first might be a wise move in certain areas of the world
Re: photographing itm musicians without permission
Tourists, patrons at the pub: that's fine. But if someone is going to post any media, I'd like to know beforehand. I've recently come across a few videos of me playing at various informal occasions. Normally, I wouldn't be bothered, but these people did not ask my permission before posting the aforementioned videos. But whatever...nothing to do about it now. And heck, it's publicity.
Re: photographing itm musicians without permission
Personally, if someone is going to photograph me, I prefer them to do it without my knowing, as, the moment I am aware I am being photographed, I become self-conscious. I look odd at the best of times, but I would rather be seen with my face contorted by musical rapture than by nerves.
However, I appreciate that those with commercially viable faces might feel differently.
Re: photographing itm musicians without permission
Cathy,
I can understand you feeling miffed, but can safely put up my hands and announce that "It wasn't me what did it, guv'nor'.
No photograph such as the one you describe has ever appeared in an edition of 'The Rough Guide to Ireland'. I fear that the person who announced that "I recognize you. Your photo was in the Rough Guide to Ireland a few years ago’’ was suffering from a memory lapse. It is possible that such a photograph appeared in the Lonely Planet guide or another competitor.
I've trawled through all the editions with photographs to verify this and also, and very importantly, we never sent a photographer to take shots in Durrus.
I had this out with Dick on Mudcat when he made a similar suggestion and he graciously admitted that he had been wrong to do so. I'm surprised that he didn't pass on this information to you.
Re: photographing itm musicians without permission
Our session employs a professional (and highy photogenic) spokesmodel (who happens to play fiddle), so we refer all requests for photos, interviews, etc. to him.
Re: photographing itm musicians without permission
Cathy... if it is you, you can request anything you want. There are things called "errata slips", it sounds very Victorian and is, and they were much in use in the old days, but they are still sometimes used. They are a little inserted slip giving a correction. It can be stuck on the table of contents page or in the page requiring the correction. In this case, inside the front cover. It would be required to have it inserted, manually, in every copy before it ships out. Following printings or editions (which are not the same thing) would need to have the correction added to the actual books... for which the publisher would be happy, they would no longer need to do manual insertions into thousands of books.
I have been involved in small press and self publishing for too long, have produced numerous books, and learned many of the things I know the hard way, LOL! The School of Trial and Error I call it.
If it is indeed you, and you do want credit, I would bet the publisher would comply in order to prevent trouble. In one or two cases of infringement I bluffed saying I had a free lawyer in the family and was going to make a test case out of someone and it worked. So if the publisher tells you where to go... but usually they will be all too eager to make you happy in my experience. I doubt you can try to collect $$ though. Honestly in the lawsuit happy US, anyone can sue anyone for anything and ask damages in rediculous amounts, but it had better be well worth your while to venture down that unhappy road, and be fairly confident of winning both the case and legal fees. A case like this just would be laughed off most likely, and at best you could get credit or deletion of the photo in any new printings. You don't generally need a lawyer for that anyway, usually a polite but firm letter has nearly always worked in my experience.
Re: photographing itm musicians without permission
AFAI understand US law, *legally*, so long as you are in a public place, you can take pictures of anyone/anything you like without needing permission.
Of course, in practice it *is* polite to ask permission before taking someone's pictures, but you often can't get a great candid picture of people who know you are going to take their picture. Most times, candids say a lot more about an event, or are a lot more 'artful', than posed pictures. Many people have a hard time 'looking natural' when they know they're being photographed.
You can use such candid photos for 'editorial' purposes; like publishing in a newspaper. However, if you are going to use the pictures for any *commercial* reason, you need to have permission from the subject (usually, I think it's called a 'model license') and that usually includes compensating said model in some way.
I'm an avid amateur photographer, and I tend to take tons of pics at the local festivals I attend.
Re: photographing itm musicians without permission
Who says no publicity is bad publicity? Someone videoed us and put us up on YouTube. All very well, very chuffed and all that - except that they put up a clip of us doing their request, which was Whiskey in the Jar !
Re: photographing itm musicians without permission
I would prefer to put my own clips on you tube.or at least see the clips first.
guides such as Living Planet /RoughGuide are commercial set ups,they can also cause problems,if they print without asking,if the musicians are busking and are receiving any form of pension, social security etc,another reason for asking first.
Macruisken,I trust youask first,?
if you think being snapped ina session is bad then imagine having your hair cut at the barbers and a small party of japanese tourists at the door indulging in a mad photographic frenzy of capturing you in the chair for some sort of obscure oriental eternity.
still,that's greenwich in the summer months for you...
Re: photographing itm musicians without permission
Most travel guides use a mixture of commissioned photography and shots taken from photographic libraries.
In the case of the Rough Guides authors provide a detailed shot list for the photographer consisting of sights and attractions. Very few shots of musicians will appear in the forthcoming edition of the Ireland guide (or have featured in the previous editions which have included photographs). No shots of traditional musicians busking have ever appeared in any edition of the Ireland guide.
Some of the shots in the next edition, for example, a picture of John Doherty, will be sourced from a library, and another is licensed from the grandson of an uilleann piper. We asked the photographer to provide generic shots of a session and a musician. Of course, I was not present when these photographs were taken and can only assume (and very much hope) that the permission of the musicians was granted. I would expect any photographer employed by the Rough Guides to operate professionally and with courtesy.
When it comes to viewing the shots suggested for inclusion I am personally very careful to ensure that no photographs are used which might incriminate anyone appearing in them or perhaps not be appropriate. For instance, one photograph of a session was withdrawn because it featured two musicians who were allegedly having an affair.
Re: photographing itm musicians without permission
FWIW, I have taken thousands of pictures of musicians and never had complaints (except from a few shy ones who don't like to be in pics but love getting the prints)
Re: photographing itm musicians without permission
geoff,
now inthe rough guide to ireland,pAGE 179.Isaphotograph of buskers at Temple bar,Dublin.
[hereis aquote from geoff wallis]
In the case of the Rough Guides authors provide a detailed shot list for the photographer consisting of sights and attractions. Very few shots of musicians will appear in the forthcoming edition of the Ireland guide (or have featured in the previous editions which have included photographs). No shots of traditional musicians busking have ever appeared in any edition of the Ireland guide.
Sorry, but you are wrong they have,check it out.
Re: photographing itm musicians without permission
Dick, unlike you, I am *very* careful with my words.
I wrote 'No shots of traditional musicians busking have ever appeared in any edition of the Ireland guide.'
The photograph in question (in the 5th edition of the guide, published in 1999) features only two musicians, a double bass player and a snare drummer. I happen to be familiar with them, they weren't busking and they were playing rockabilly. The photograph was taken with their permission.
I suggest you withdraw your comment and apologize.
Re: photographing itm musicians without permission
The photograph shows buskers,a double bass player and a snare drum[quite possible they are playing trad],but it proves that your guide has taken photographs of buskers,youare trying to give the impression that you havent photgraphed buskers.
it is irrelevant what kind of music theyare playing, it is the principle of taking photographs without permission,that is the issue here.
I trust youasked their permission first.
Re: photographing itm musicians without permission
NO, I havent, I never go to Dublin,Itsa seven hour drive,and I have plenty of work here
I apologise,
however, your guide has taken photographs of buskers and I am pleased to hear that you had permission.
Re: photographing itm musicians without permission
I deny having that affair, we were just good friends.
I must admit, the photographer for Tasmin Day Lewis did ask permission, and told us what it was for. Being used to stardom, I didn't really listen so forgot about it. And it is not a guide, it is a cookery book. Lovely book actually.
As for her better known brother, Danny Boy to us his friends, I .......
Re: photographing itm musicians without permission
the caption ,underneath describes them as buskers,Temple bar Dublin,not unreasonable to think that theyare buskers ,if they are described as buskers.
if they were not buskers why are they described as such.,
It would be agood idea when you print your books not to put in misleading captions,can you please confirm whether there is a caption that says, Buskers Temple bar,Dublin page 178.with a photograph of two musicians
to the left is a picture of st patricks cathedral,underneath a photograph of Fitzwilliam square,Dublin.
that is what is in my IRELAND ROUGH GUIDE.
Re: photographing itm musicians without permission
No, Bliss, I'm just assuming that you don't play the fiddle!
And do you remember the old Milligan joke? 'How many sexes are there?' 'Two.' 'That's not enough, I say!'
Dick,
Yes, I agree with you. The caption for the photograph in the 1999 edition of 'The Rough Guide to Ireland' to which you refer was incorrect. Said caption was penned by the then Photo Editor and neither I nor my fellow co-authors saw it until the book was published. Such practice no longer occurs and all picture captions are written by authors (and I'm an author, Dick, not an editor as you erroneously assume elsewhere). The caption was wrong and unintentionally misleading, which, in itself, reiterates my point that 'the Rough Guide to Ireland has never included any photographs of buskers'.
I do not 'print my books'. If you had any knowledge of the publishing industry, you'd well know that the finished article often does not tally with its author(s)' expectations.
But why on earth are we discussing an out-of-date edition of the Ireland guide, published in 1999 unless you have some alternative agenda?
Could it possibly be that you took umbrage at my posting to the fRoots board about your past history on Mudcat? If so, fair enough, but then your scattergun response, firing off accusations about the 'RG to Ireland' on three different discussion boards (and compelling me to make rebuttals on each) over the last 24 hours was both childish and irritating and entirely reinforces my long-held view that you have far too much time on your hands and not enough sense to explore said sensation fulfillingly.
Oh, and your friend Cathy Cook hasn't yet withdrawn her allegation. Perhaps you might have a word with her when you've finished dealing with Lizzie Cornish over on the fRoots forum?
Re: photographing itm musicians without permission
Mac cruiskeen,
note that in my original post I said
''Now By that time it was a different edition of the Rough Guide out, so I couldn’t check this, but if our photo was used for commercial purposes it might have been nice to be asked our permission''
the operative word is IF
I never actually accused you as I had only the fellows word, although he undoubtedly saw the photo somewhere, maybe as you say confusing you with a rival publication.
Re: photographing itm musicians without permission
Macruiskeen,
lets stick to facts,your name/guide was not mentioned by me on this forum ,until youmentioned it
.or on froots,[in fact I have not mentioned at all on froots]I have apologised on Mudcat,for what was said on mudcat.
I normally do between two to three hours musical practice,which I find fulfilling,which judging by your description of yourself in your profile, you dont.
fInally what has Lizzie Cornish got to do with this,I avoid discussion with her,although she has never been rude to me in the same way that youhave been.
Cathy and I are friends, this does not mean that we have identical opinions.
Re: photographing itm musicians without permission
Facts, Dick Miles, what the flying feck do you know about facts (or are you still trying to prove that Dev visited Germany)?
1) My name on this site is MacCruiskeen. Are you incapable of registering that?
2) You claim not to have mentioned either my name or 'The Rough Guide to Ireland' on the fRoots Forum, but have clearly done so.
3) Yes, you have apologized to me on Mudcat (twice or is it three times - I've begun to lose count?), but still insist on attempting to pillory me there, including setting up a thread for that explicit purpose (and mentioning my connection with the Rough Guides).
4) I'm glad you spend several hours practising music each day, but how dare you suggest that I do not find my own music-making fulfilling! Didn't this part of my entry suggest otherwise - 'For my own enjoyment I play the piano, mandolin and concertina, though my favourite instrument has always been the harmonica.'
5) Lastly, if you continue this assault on my professional reputation (and, yes, the totality of your three-pronged Mudcat, Session and fRoots attack constitutes such), I will be forced to seek legal restraint on your activities.
I would strongly suggest that you make no further comments about me on any web forum/message board/discussion board or you will certainly begin to face the consequences.
************************
Apologies to anyone else who has unwittingly come across this thread. Please do not add any comments.
photographing itm musicians without permission
photographing itm musicians without permission
most people have the courtesy to ask if they can take photographs,,I, do not mind at all,providing Iam asked,
Ifeel it is discourteous if people do not ask,particuarly if they are using the photographs for a magazine,or for any other commercial purpose.
Ialso feel the same way about recording,Idont mind if Iam asked,and if the recording is not for commercial purposes.
I feel it can also disrupt a session,if the photographer is not discreet,how do others feel?Dick Miles
# Posted on November 19th 2007 by dickens metrognome
Re: photographing itm musicians without permission
Photographing people who play music in a public place does not formally require their permission. Asking permission would be the courteous thing to do maybe but it will in most instances make them instantly camera aware and will, if you're looking for a candid shot, spoil the pic.
# Posted on November 19th 2007 by kilfarboy
Re: photographing itm musicians without permission
I can't say it bothers me - except if it was right in your face and putting you off. We do occasionally get tourists into the Blythe even down here in Deepest Sarff London, who take snaps. They are generally reasonably polite - often much more so than the denizens of geezers, football fans, loudmouths, alkies and various other manifestations of human detritus which inhabit Catford drinking dens.
# Posted on November 19th 2007 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: photographing itm musicians without permission
For the past 15 years I've had a regular gig in a pub on what could be described as a tourist area in SE Ireland. Over that period I, and the various musicians that I've played with, have had hundreds of photos and videos taken during our performance. We were even featured playing in the pub for a English TV ad for an author's book and for an introductory piece for S4C (Welsh TV) on Irish Beef Exports. Many people will ask permission to take photos but many just blast away. From my point of view I couldn't care less one way or the other as long as they don't throw glasses at us. We got a few Bob for the TV thingy, but in most cases it may be the offer of a drink, which is a shame for me 'cos I only drink water when I'm playing.
# Posted on November 19th 2007 by Free Reed
Re: photographing itm musicians without permission
Happens a lot in Edinburgh.
Why should it only be of concern to ITM(whatever that is) musicians?
I've been photographed playing Scottish music too.
See previous discussions
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/4165
and
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/10641
# Posted on November 19th 2007 by Johannes J
Re: photographing itm musicians without permission
I like to take a few photos of festival sessions as a reminder of family and friends who I don't see so often. I don't use a flash in order not to disrupt the flow. I feel it would be more intrusive to ask everybody rather than just get on with it, but I don't often take photos of sessions where I don't know anybody. I have no problem at all with other people taking photos as long as they don't use too much flash.
# Posted on November 19th 2007 by Lynn W
Re: photographing itm musicians without permission
In my experience, most punters dont ask permission, and when someone does, it surprises us so much that we're speechless. One of my regular playing mates thinks that our photos now occupy a place of pride on at least half the mantlepieces (do you have mantlepieces?) in America.
Anyway we find that making a funny face or even "getting back at them" by having a camera ourselves, raises the fun element of a session to a new high!
# Posted on November 19th 2007 by Backer
Re: photographing itm musicians without permission
I'd be inclined to just take pics quietly, avoid flash etc. as outlined above. But whatever about adults and I have absolutely no objection to people taking pics of me, if they want to .... you'd want to have your wits about you if you try taking shots of children these days in Ireland in any activity. It's hard to believe how quickly this country and societies attitude has changed in this respect, maybe it was something to do with all the clerical abuse scandals.
Fact is in many places outside your own home, you may be prepared to be challenged if you try to take pictures of minors, even your own children. It's got to the stage that even when your own kids are involved in local sporting or community activities that you can't take pictures but have to buy the 'official' video. Hmmm.
# Posted on November 19th 2007 by the wounded hussar
Re: photographing itm musicians without permission
Some years ago now, I entered a busking competition in Durrus, Co. Cork, and was joined by an old fiddler from the village, Jamesie Kingston. Of course a few people took pictures of us, and I don’t mind tourists photographing me busking, as long as they put something in the hat
However a few years later Jamesie and I were back in Durrus busking together again for the festival, and a fellow came up and said something like, ‘’I recognize you. You’re photo was in the Rough Guide to Ireland a few years ago’’. Now By that time it was a different edition of the Rough Guide out, so I couldn’t check this, but if our photo was used for commercial purposes it might have been nice to be asked our permission, or maybe even be sent a complimentary copy of the photo or the book. It’s a bit different from a tourist just taking a snap for their photo album.
# Posted on November 19th 2007 by cathycook
Re: photographing itm musicians without permission
Maybe MacCruiskeen could enlighten us on this one?
# Posted on November 19th 2007 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: photographing itm musicians without permission
They may not know who you are to ask permission for use on a cover etc. down the line, they may have not had the thought to use it when they took the pix. Legally, should you persue it, their ignorance is no excuse. You can, in US anyway, contact them and ask them to stop using it, or to give you a credit line on future printings. You can also, though it may cost in legal fees if they do not agree, do a "cease and desist" if the picture really bothers you. They may in that case, if a book, have to trash the whole printing, call in copies from stores, and reprint it with another cover. If it is a product someone is making a lot of money on, you may be able to request a usage fee. Not likely you'd get it on most books, and you would have to prove the picture of YOU is what is selling the book and key to the profits. If it is a picture you think tarnishes your image somehow you can seek damages, but it is difficult and lengthy and costly to go this route. I know people who have done it with artwork they didn't like, made them look bad they thought, and it was reproduced without authorization thinking the artist would never see it.
I have personally had my artwork stolen (too many times) and one time used on a brochure. I ordinarily would have called and said to pay my usual fee and we'll forget it, but in this case, I had sold similar artwork for reproduction on a brochure of someone else's company in the same field. They saw the other company's cover and threatened to sue me for licensing it twice, when they paid for an original look, thinking I broke the contract not to use it again for a year for reproduction licensing. The 2nd party had bought a similar piece of my art in an art store and ignored the copyright notice, complete with contact info. It was so similar it looked the same to most eyes, so I had to do a "cease & desist" and they had to destroy all copies. The whole episode was not fun in the slightest and I would never recommend doing it unless the picture really and truly bothered you. It is not easy and is a very stressful process.
The same "visual copyright" rules apply for photos and their uses, but whether it is causing you harm is a real consideration. In my case it would have so I went ahead. I would be sued by party #1 if I did not get the cease and desist from party #2.
I would think most people might be pleased to see themselves playing music on a book cover, but technically they can contact the publisher for removal or ask for a name credit on future printings. Most would be very aggreable.
Bands pretty much expect to be photographed and who knows where it ends up, but they may like the publicity, especailly if named.
I sometimes take a short video at our sessions and have asked if people want to go onto YouTube, I'd never post it without permission, and letting them see if first.
At a concert, it is polite to ask if they wouldn't mind some pictures taken, and offer to email a copy if digital. No one I know has ever said no.
If used on a book and they know you or how to contact you, it is always acceptable to request a few copies. If you were not contacted for use, call them or write them and ask for a few copies if you want.
# Posted on November 19th 2007 by irisnevins
Re: photographing itm musicians without permission
We don't care at all. In fact, we take it as a compliment. All I ask is that they give us time to put away the music stands and zimmer frames before pressing the shutter.
# Posted on November 19th 2007 by Steve Shaw
Re: photographing itm musicians without permission
Thanks for all that info. Iris, as it happens I would have been pleased to appear in the book, but it would have been nice to be asked and be credited in the book as to who we were. As it was I only found out a few years later that our photo had probably been used, and that edition had been updated with a more recent one so too late to check if they really did use our photo and request a copy or I'm quite distinctive in appearance and so was Jamesie,(sadly he's dead now) so I feel fairly certain that it was our photo.
# Posted on November 19th 2007 by cathycook
Re: photographing itm musicians without permission
I find a lot of the more 'professional' style photographers to be very intrusive and lacking coourtesy. I once had a photographer take shots of me at a festival when I was just sitting on the street with a few friends, after taking about ten photos and making me very uncomfortable she then came up to me and asked if she could use them in a local newspaper. I nearly told her to go screw herself but just let her away with it.
Someone taking the odd photo for personal use is no problem. What does bother rme though is professional style photographers with their big cameras, strong flashes and countless photos with loud clicks. I've come across a few people like that and they have absolutely no sense of courtesy, even if they have permission to take photos they overdo it by lining musicians up with their cameras as a hunter would line up its prey!!
Even worse than photographers are these tourist types who come in with their video cameras and film a session, then post it on youttube without even asking permission from the musicians.
I feel that a session is a moment in time that should remain in the memory rather than as a shoddy film on youtube.
# Posted on November 19th 2007 by Worldwide Pants
Re: photographing itm musicians without permission
Where i grew up, taking a photo without express permission could result in spontaneous confiscation and destruction of said camera! Asking first might be a wise move in certain areas of the world
# Posted on November 19th 2007 by jig
Re: photographing itm musicians without permission
I discreetly put two fingers up at one photographer for a certain music mag - they still published it and described me as looking "wistful".
# Posted on November 19th 2007 by geoffwright
Re: photographing itm musicians without permission
Tourists, patrons at the pub: that's fine. But if someone is going to post any media, I'd like to know beforehand. I've recently come across a few videos of me playing at various informal occasions. Normally, I wouldn't be bothered, but these people did not ask my permission before posting the aforementioned videos. But whatever...nothing to do about it now. And heck, it's publicity.
# Posted on November 19th 2007 by thebunnystomper
Re: photographing itm musicians without permission
Personally, if someone is going to photograph me, I prefer them to do it without my knowing, as, the moment I am aware I am being photographed, I become self-conscious. I look odd at the best of times, but I would rather be seen with my face contorted by musical rapture than by nerves.
However, I appreciate that those with commercially viable faces might feel differently.
# Posted on November 19th 2007 by ragaman
Re: photographing itm musicians without permission
Cathy,
I can understand you feeling miffed, but can safely put up my hands and announce that "It wasn't me what did it, guv'nor'.
No photograph such as the one you describe has ever appeared in an edition of 'The Rough Guide to Ireland'. I fear that the person who announced that "I recognize you. Your photo was in the Rough Guide to Ireland a few years ago’’ was suffering from a memory lapse. It is possible that such a photograph appeared in the Lonely Planet guide or another competitor.
I've trawled through all the editions with photographs to verify this and also, and very importantly, we never sent a photographer to take shots in Durrus.
I had this out with Dick on Mudcat when he made a similar suggestion and he graciously admitted that he had been wrong to do so. I'm surprised that he didn't pass on this information to you.
# Posted on November 19th 2007 by Floss the Tethers
Re: photographing itm musicians without permission
Our session employs a professional (and highy photogenic) spokesmodel (who happens to play fiddle), so we refer all requests for photos, interviews, etc. to him.
# Posted on November 19th 2007 by Will CPT
Re: photographing itm musicians without permission
Cathy... if it is you, you can request anything you want. There are things called "errata slips", it sounds very Victorian and is, and they were much in use in the old days, but they are still sometimes used. They are a little inserted slip giving a correction. It can be stuck on the table of contents page or in the page requiring the correction. In this case, inside the front cover. It would be required to have it inserted, manually, in every copy before it ships out. Following printings or editions (which are not the same thing) would need to have the correction added to the actual books... for which the publisher would be happy, they would no longer need to do manual insertions into thousands of books.
I have been involved in small press and self publishing for too long, have produced numerous books, and learned many of the things I know the hard way, LOL! The School of Trial and Error I call it.
If it is indeed you, and you do want credit, I would bet the publisher would comply in order to prevent trouble. In one or two cases of infringement I bluffed saying I had a free lawyer in the family and was going to make a test case out of someone and it worked. So if the publisher tells you where to go... but usually they will be all too eager to make you happy in my experience. I doubt you can try to collect $$ though. Honestly in the lawsuit happy US, anyone can sue anyone for anything and ask damages in rediculous amounts, but it had better be well worth your while to venture down that unhappy road, and be fairly confident of winning both the case and legal fees. A case like this just would be laughed off most likely, and at best you could get credit or deletion of the photo in any new printings. You don't generally need a lawyer for that anyway, usually a polite but firm letter has nearly always worked in my experience.
# Posted on November 19th 2007 by irisnevins
Re: photographing itm musicians without permission
You get used to it, photos, autographs, requests............
# Posted on November 19th 2007 by bodhran bliss
Re: photographing itm musicians without permission
In your dreams ...........
# Posted on November 19th 2007 by bazouki dave and the real tooty flutey
Re: photographing itm musicians without permission
Those as well, it really is hard to escape, I use autographed photos nowadays, just hand them out.
# Posted on November 20th 2007 by bodhran bliss
Re: photographing itm musicians without permission
AFAI understand US law, *legally*, so long as you are in a public place, you can take pictures of anyone/anything you like without needing permission.
Of course, in practice it *is* polite to ask permission before taking someone's pictures, but you often can't get a great candid picture of people who know you are going to take their picture. Most times, candids say a lot more about an event, or are a lot more 'artful', than posed pictures. Many people have a hard time 'looking natural' when they know they're being photographed.
You can use such candid photos for 'editorial' purposes; like publishing in a newspaper. However, if you are going to use the pictures for any *commercial* reason, you need to have permission from the subject (usually, I think it's called a 'model license') and that usually includes compensating said model in some way.
I'm an avid amateur photographer, and I tend to take tons of pics at the local festivals I attend.
# Posted on November 20th 2007 by KeepFiddlin'
Re: photographing itm musicians without permission
Despite Kilfars claims it's not quite true, Bars / Pubs are not PUBLIC spaces and are therefor not subject to "free for all" as he suggests.
Having said all that it sounds to me to be an over reaction, I mean how often have you been published in a magazine or web site ??
# Posted on November 20th 2007 by Enigma
Re: photographing itm musicians without permission
Tasmin Day Lewis's "West of Ireland Summers". I was buying it when I noticed a double spread photo of myself. I then asked for an immediate discount.
And she had it under the "Entertainment" chapter. A bodhran, entertainment?
# Posted on November 20th 2007 by bodhran bliss
Re: photographing itm musicians without permission
BB
Will you autograph this cheque for me .......
# Posted on November 20th 2007 by bazouki dave and the real tooty flutey
Re: photographing itm musicians without permission
Who says no publicity is bad publicity? Someone videoed us and put us up on YouTube. All very well, very chuffed and all that - except that they put up a clip of us doing their request, which was Whiskey in the Jar !
# Posted on November 20th 2007 by Steve Shaw
Re: photographing itm musicians without permission
I would prefer to put my own clips on you tube.or at least see the clips first.
guides such as Living Planet /RoughGuide are commercial set ups,they can also cause problems,if they print without asking,if the musicians are busking and are receiving any form of pension, social security etc,another reason for asking first.
Macruisken,I trust youask first,?
# Posted on November 20th 2007 by dickens metrognome
Re: please,no photographs...
if you think being snapped ina session is bad then imagine having your hair cut at the barbers and a small party of japanese tourists at the door indulging in a mad photographic frenzy of capturing you in the chair for some sort of obscure oriental eternity.
still,that's greenwich in the summer months for you...
# Posted on November 20th 2007 by biggus dave
Re: photographing itm musicians without permission
Most travel guides use a mixture of commissioned photography and shots taken from photographic libraries.
In the case of the Rough Guides authors provide a detailed shot list for the photographer consisting of sights and attractions. Very few shots of musicians will appear in the forthcoming edition of the Ireland guide (or have featured in the previous editions which have included photographs). No shots of traditional musicians busking have ever appeared in any edition of the Ireland guide.
Some of the shots in the next edition, for example, a picture of John Doherty, will be sourced from a library, and another is licensed from the grandson of an uilleann piper. We asked the photographer to provide generic shots of a session and a musician. Of course, I was not present when these photographs were taken and can only assume (and very much hope) that the permission of the musicians was granted. I would expect any photographer employed by the Rough Guides to operate professionally and with courtesy.
When it comes to viewing the shots suggested for inclusion I am personally very careful to ensure that no photographs are used which might incriminate anyone appearing in them or perhaps not be appropriate. For instance, one photograph of a session was withdrawn because it featured two musicians who were allegedly having an affair.
I hope this information helps.
# Posted on November 20th 2007 by Floss the Tethers
Re: photographing itm musicians without permission
Just an appendum, but why has Dick Miles posted this question on three different sites - this one, Mudcat and the fRoots forum?
Does he expect three different answers?
# Posted on November 20th 2007 by Floss the Tethers
Re: photographing itm musicians without permission
FWIW, I have taken thousands of pictures of musicians and never had complaints (except from a few shy ones who don't like to be in pics but love getting the prints)
# Posted on November 20th 2007 by kilfarboy
Re: photographing itm musicians without permission
geoff,
now inthe rough guide to ireland,pAGE 179.Isaphotograph of buskers at Temple bar,Dublin.
[hereis aquote from geoff wallis]
In the case of the Rough Guides authors provide a detailed shot list for the photographer consisting of sights and attractions. Very few shots of musicians will appear in the forthcoming edition of the Ireland guide (or have featured in the previous editions which have included photographs). No shots of traditional musicians busking have ever appeared in any edition of the Ireland guide.
Sorry, but you are wrong they have,check it out.
# Posted on November 20th 2007 by dickens metrognome
Re: photographing itm musicians without permission
Dick, unlike you, I am *very* careful with my words.
I wrote 'No shots of traditional musicians busking have ever appeared in any edition of the Ireland guide.'
The photograph in question (in the 5th edition of the guide, published in 1999) features only two musicians, a double bass player and a snare drummer. I happen to be familiar with them, they weren't busking and they were playing rockabilly. The photograph was taken with their permission.
I suggest you withdraw your comment and apologize.
# Posted on November 20th 2007 by Floss the Tethers
Re: photographing itm musicians without permission
The photograph shows buskers,a double bass player and a snare drum[quite possible they are playing trad],but it proves that your guide has taken photographs of buskers,youare trying to give the impression that you havent photgraphed buskers.
it is irrelevant what kind of music theyare playing, it is the principle of taking photographs without permission,that is the issue here.
I trust youasked their permission first.
# Posted on November 20th 2007 by dickens metrognome
Re: photographing itm musicians without permission
Dick,
What is there in the statement in my last message that you don't understand?
Here is is again.
'I happen to be familiar with them, they weren't busking and they were playing rockabilly. The photograph was taken with their permission.'
For heaven's sake, haven't you heard of musicians being paid to play live in Temple Bar Square?
# Posted on November 20th 2007 by Floss the Tethers
Re: photographing itm musicians without permission
ummm, I think MacC just said that "The photograph was taken with their permission."
I'd like to know what your point is, Dickens. As a casual observer, it looks like you may be just trying to shake the cage.... in my opinion.
: )
# Posted on November 20th 2007 by wyogal
Re: photographing itm musicians without permission
NO, I havent, I never go to Dublin,Itsa seven hour drive,and I have plenty of work here
I apologise,
however, your guide has taken photographs of buskers and I am pleased to hear that you had permission.
# Posted on November 20th 2007 by dickens metrognome
Re: photographing itm musicians without permission
I deny having that affair, we were just good friends.
I must admit, the photographer for Tasmin Day Lewis did ask permission, and told us what it was for. Being used to stardom, I didn't really listen so forgot about it. And it is not a guide, it is a cookery book. Lovely book actually.
As for her better known brother, Danny Boy to us his friends, I .......
# Posted on November 20th 2007 by bodhran bliss
Re: photographing itm musicians without permission
Dick,
I'm obviously going to have to shout until you listen - THE ROUGH GUIDE TO IRELAND HAS NEVER INCLUDED ANY PHOTOGRAPHS OF BUSKERS!
Do you understand? Please nod once for no or twice for yes.
No, it definitely wasn't you, Bliss - you're assuming that at least one of the musicians concerned was male.
# Posted on November 20th 2007 by Floss the Tethers
Re: photographing itm musicians without permission
the caption ,underneath describes them as buskers,Temple bar Dublin,not unreasonable to think that theyare buskers ,if they are described as buskers.
if they were not buskers why are they described as such.,
It would be agood idea when you print your books not to put in misleading captions,can you please confirm whether there is a caption that says, Buskers Temple bar,Dublin page 178.with a photograph of two musicians
to the left is a picture of st patricks cathedral,underneath a photograph of Fitzwilliam square,Dublin.
that is what is in my IRELAND ROUGH GUIDE.
# Posted on November 21st 2007 by dickens metrognome
Re: photographing itm musicians without permission
You are assuming I am male.
# Posted on November 21st 2007 by bodhran bliss
Re: photographing itm musicians without permission
No, Bliss, I'm just assuming that you don't play the fiddle!
And do you remember the old Milligan joke? 'How many sexes are there?' 'Two.' 'That's not enough, I say!'
Dick,
Yes, I agree with you. The caption for the photograph in the 1999 edition of 'The Rough Guide to Ireland' to which you refer was incorrect. Said caption was penned by the then Photo Editor and neither I nor my fellow co-authors saw it until the book was published. Such practice no longer occurs and all picture captions are written by authors (and I'm an author, Dick, not an editor as you erroneously assume elsewhere). The caption was wrong and unintentionally misleading, which, in itself, reiterates my point that 'the Rough Guide to Ireland has never included any photographs of buskers'.
I do not 'print my books'. If you had any knowledge of the publishing industry, you'd well know that the finished article often does not tally with its author(s)' expectations.
But why on earth are we discussing an out-of-date edition of the Ireland guide, published in 1999 unless you have some alternative agenda?
Could it possibly be that you took umbrage at my posting to the fRoots board about your past history on Mudcat? If so, fair enough, but then your scattergun response, firing off accusations about the 'RG to Ireland' on three different discussion boards (and compelling me to make rebuttals on each) over the last 24 hours was both childish and irritating and entirely reinforces my long-held view that you have far too much time on your hands and not enough sense to explore said sensation fulfillingly.
Oh, and your friend Cathy Cook hasn't yet withdrawn her allegation. Perhaps you might have a word with her when you've finished dealing with Lizzie Cornish over on the fRoots forum?
# Posted on November 21st 2007 by Floss the Tethers
Re: photographing itm musicians without permission
Mac cruiskeen,
note that in my original post I said
''Now By that time it was a different edition of the Rough Guide out, so I couldn’t check this, but if our photo was used for commercial purposes it might have been nice to be asked our permission''
the operative word is IF
I never actually accused you as I had only the fellows word, although he undoubtedly saw the photo somewhere, maybe as you say confusing you with a rival publication.
# Posted on November 21st 2007 by cathycook
Re: photographing itm musicians without permission
Macruiskeen,
lets stick to facts,your name/guide was not mentioned by me on this forum ,until youmentioned it
.or on froots,[in fact I have not mentioned at all on froots]I have apologised on Mudcat,for what was said on mudcat.
I normally do between two to three hours musical practice,which I find fulfilling,which judging by your description of yourself in your profile, you dont.
fInally what has Lizzie Cornish got to do with this,I avoid discussion with her,although she has never been rude to me in the same way that youhave been.
Cathy and I are friends, this does not mean that we have identical opinions.
# Posted on November 22nd 2007 by dickens metrognome
Re: photographing itm musicians without permission
Facts, Dick Miles, what the flying feck do you know about facts (or are you still trying to prove that Dev visited Germany)?
1) My name on this site is MacCruiskeen. Are you incapable of registering that?
2) You claim not to have mentioned either my name or 'The Rough Guide to Ireland' on the fRoots Forum, but have clearly done so.
3) Yes, you have apologized to me on Mudcat (twice or is it three times - I've begun to lose count?), but still insist on attempting to pillory me there, including setting up a thread for that explicit purpose (and mentioning my connection with the Rough Guides).
4) I'm glad you spend several hours practising music each day, but how dare you suggest that I do not find my own music-making fulfilling! Didn't this part of my entry suggest otherwise - 'For my own enjoyment I play the piano, mandolin and concertina, though my favourite instrument has always been the harmonica.'
5) Lastly, if you continue this assault on my professional reputation (and, yes, the totality of your three-pronged Mudcat, Session and fRoots attack constitutes such), I will be forced to seek legal restraint on your activities.
I would strongly suggest that you make no further comments about me on any web forum/message board/discussion board or you will certainly begin to face the consequences.
************************
Apologies to anyone else who has unwittingly come across this thread. Please do not add any comments.
# Posted on November 22nd 2007 by Floss the Tethers