I was just reading another discussion about playing by ear and I was wondering can you teach a backer how to know what key a tune is in and are there any recommended systems out there for this?
If you play up and down the bass string until you find the root note of the tune (the one that sounds ok throughout the tune) that will be the biggest indication of key. Beyond that it is just trying to work out if it is in a major or minor key and you should be able to hear that. Good luck.
Well the likely hood is its gonna be in Em, Am, G,D, or A ,Bm.
There are exceptions. eg C or F, but these are few and far between.some tunes have 2 keys, say Em and D major=drowzy maggie, Em and G =throw it accross the road.
The gravel walk uses A mix, Am, and C.
put a tune on. play each of the chords as a 'drone' say youve found A works, now try putting a G in. If that doesnt sound right , its likely major. using ADE, and poss Bm.
If G works its Mixolydian.
Its all by ear.
you dont need these names, just the sounds.
Exercise.: get some one to play a Chord from the above list. name it by ear, get them to change again try to picture in your mind the difference , try to figure out the name of the 2 chords
Just tell whoever it is you're teaching that they're stupid and they're taking totally the wrong approach, and that they should learn the tunes and not get so caught up worrying about what key they're in, otherwise they'll end up being absolutely useless backers.
Train your ear to the point where you know exactly what note is playing! That is, get someone to play a note on the pinao...then fix that note in your mind/ears then tell them to play another random note...using your ears work out what the 2nd note is. Once you master that, progress to naming any given note...it may be easier to hum the note A to yourslef (or any note that is commonly played on your instrument) so that when you hear the random note plyed...you can name it!!
It's easy for ITM coz there aren't many key sigs to chose from since G, D and A will make up a decent fraction of all tunes played.
i had'nt realized you were such a brilliant backer dow. amazing, a man of many talents....you are a backer of course?
Trad chic, I agree, but not necessarily the majority of tunes any individual might play. For example i much prefer Minor tunes. so it could well be that the majority or Tunes i play are in Em And Am. not gonna work it out though, too many!
Dan i would suggest that the piano is not the best instrument to train a trad players ear. Much better the whistle/ fiddle / box.
Anyone who can play the guitar yet struggles to find the key of a tune he's listening to and has to be constantly told isn't going to make it. Give him about 10 ITM cds and tell him to play along 'til he can do it blindfold. Failing that, he needs to get respectable and learn a melody instrument.
Thanks again .Steve thats why I want to know how to pick out keys because I want to do it without being told . I have an A in my head so thats some of the battle its just applying it and beleiving in what I know so far and using the info I've got here.I'm learning how to play the odd tune and its slowly coming together Actually I'm finding it easier than the Bodhran .Why do people under estimate the work thats goes in to our beloved drum.
Hey eddie, I didn't realise you were talking about yourself there! Like all problems you're halfway to the solution because you realise there's a problem. I've come across backers who'll play in the wrong key for four minutes and still think they've done a great job. Not much hope for them.
I think a lot of good backers get good at hearing mode "intervals" - the switch from one mode to the next.
So a lot of times, they'll hunt for the root of the key on the first tune in a set, but from there, they can "feel" how far it shifts, and in which direction when a new tune starts. Then they'll start by droning the root of they key until they figure out the mode (you can usually pick that up within the first phrase).
This is all talking about when they don't know the tune(s). Many good backers know the tunes about as well as the melody players, and they'll recognize the tune as quickly as another melody player will pick it up (often within the first few notes).
I do some accompaniment from time to time, but I don't do it enough to catch mode/key changes quite that quickly. I guess I can recognize D, G, and Em pretty quickly, but am a bit slower on the uptake on some of the other keys.
On the ball Bliss because I've been listening to tunes alot but its a different kind of listening with the drum.A buddy suggested the same thing and he's going to go through a bit with me and give me a few books. Thanks again I've got some great ideas here .
Regards
Eddie
Which bears do you have in mind, jig (or tradpiper or any of your other numerous other pseudonyms)?
Yogi, Huggie or Paddington?
I've read many of your messages over the last few months and I'm now utterly convinced that you really don't have a clue about the music you claim to espouse.
Jig's right - getting a feel for the intervals between chords has to be the way to go, just as getting a feel for the intervals between notes is a massive help when picking out a melody.
Good backers are as thin on the ground as good melody players here in darkest Kernow, and just to exacerbate the problem the good backers also play melody instruments. Their instincts, rightly in my view, are to eschew backing altogether and play the chunes. We have our very best times when we're all playing the melodies. Absolutely nothing seems to be lost. I recommend it!
What are intervals between chords, bc_box_player? And I can't help feeling that getting a feel for the intervals between notes is the ONLY way to learn any melody!!
Some tunes are easy to back and it easy to figure out the key and chords on the fly. But there are many others that have tonal shifts that will throw even a competent backer off. Other tunes might be in one key but sound like they start in a different key because of the first few notes. There are a bunch, for example, that are in G major but start on a C major chord. I've heard backers become confused and think a few of these tunes are in A dor until they suss it out.
The best backer I know for picking up twisty tunes on the fly is Junji Shirota. I remember one night when our local pub was having its 25th anniversary festival and Junji was the default backer for many of the musicians. At one point flute player, Conal O'Grada, played a very complex march (or highland maybe) with a lot of twisty tonal shifts. I was standing next to the stage and could see Conal watching Junji as though he was testing Junji's mettle with that particular tune, but Junji was backing it with perfection. When it ended Conal gave Junji an approving nod and then I asked Junji if he ever heard that tune before because I certainly hadn't. Junji laughed as he replied, "Never hear that tune before."
The point I'm making is that much of what a good backer does is based on a combination of knowledge, experience and musical intuition. Some people have extraordinary abilities in these areas, but most backers still have to sit out tunes they aren't familiar with until they have a chance to get familiar with them -- unless they're willing to risk hitting a few glaring wrong-sounding chords.
I personally appreciate when a backer realizes that they aren't familiar enough with certain tunes to back them sufficiently and know when to stop and listen. These are the same players who figure out the best tonal approach in the shortest amount of time and you're glad when they start playing again and offer their ideas for the tune in question.
"You could listen from here to eternity (great film) and not know what key a tune or song was in, if you do not understand music theory.
Could I suggest that the key is to learn something about theory?"
You could study music theory from here to eternity and not know what key a tune or song was in, if you don't listen.
I'm not arguing with you, Bliss - just trying to emphasise the fact that theory is only useful as a way to make sense of what you hear. Listening skills and theory need to be learned concurrently, as they are inextricably intertwined. This may be obvious to everyone and maybe I am just being overly pedantic, but it riles me a little every time somebody says 'learn theory', as if you can get all you need from reading a book.
I'm not sure what the "key to a tune is". The discussion of the study of theory has peaked my interest though. I started playing Irish music at age 10 or so and never studied theory at all. Many people suggested taking a theory class at a local community college but I just never saw the need for it. Now, after 18 years of backing Irish music, a friend of mine who studies music at the University of Virginia tells me that I have a better grasp of music theory than some of the people in his classes. Is it possible that one can learn theory through observation of it's implementation, trial, and error? What I am suggesting is that the study of theory doesn't have to come first but can be learned through listening and playing? It has always felt sort of natural to me.
Key to a tune.
Key to a tune.
I was just reading another discussion about playing by ear and I was wondering can you teach a backer how to know what key a tune is in and are there any recommended systems out there for this?
# Posted on November 15th 2007 by Saint
Re: Key to a tune.
If you play up and down the bass string until you find the root note of the tune (the one that sounds ok throughout the tune) that will be the biggest indication of key. Beyond that it is just trying to work out if it is in a major or minor key and you should be able to hear that. Good luck.
# Posted on November 15th 2007 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Key to a tune.
Well the likely hood is its gonna be in Em, Am, G,D, or A ,Bm.
There are exceptions. eg C or F, but these are few and far between.some tunes have 2 keys, say Em and D major=drowzy maggie, Em and G =throw it accross the road.
The gravel walk uses A mix, Am, and C.
put a tune on. play each of the chords as a 'drone' say youve found A works, now try putting a G in. If that doesnt sound right , its likely major. using ADE, and poss Bm.
If G works its Mixolydian.
Its all by ear.
you dont need these names, just the sounds.
Exercise.: get some one to play a Chord from the above list. name it by ear, get them to change again try to picture in your mind the difference , try to figure out the name of the 2 chords
Any help?
# Posted on November 15th 2007 by jig
Re: Key to a tune.
Great thanks
# Posted on November 15th 2007 by Saint
Re: Key to a tune.
Just tell whoever it is you're teaching that they're stupid and they're taking totally the wrong approach, and that they should learn the tunes and not get so caught up worrying about what key they're in, otherwise they'll end up being absolutely useless backers.
# Posted on November 15th 2007 by Dow
Re: Key to a tune.
In Irish music,the majority of tunes are either in D or G!
# Posted on November 15th 2007 by TradChic
Re: Key to a tune.
Train your ear to the point where you know exactly what note is playing! That is, get someone to play a note on the pinao...then fix that note in your mind/ears then tell them to play another random note...using your ears work out what the 2nd note is. Once you master that, progress to naming any given note...it may be easier to hum the note A to yourslef (or any note that is commonly played on your instrument) so that when you hear the random note plyed...you can name it!!
It's easy for ITM coz there aren't many key sigs to chose from since G, D and A will make up a decent fraction of all tunes played.
# Posted on November 15th 2007 by D.J.F.
Re: Key to a tune.
i had'nt realized you were such a brilliant backer dow. amazing, a man of many talents....you are a backer of course?
Trad chic, I agree, but not necessarily the majority of tunes any individual might play. For example i much prefer Minor tunes. so it could well be that the majority or Tunes i play are in Em And Am. not gonna work it out though, too many!
Dan i would suggest that the piano is not the best instrument to train a trad players ear. Much better the whistle/ fiddle / box.
# Posted on November 15th 2007 by jig
Re: Key to a tune.
Anyone who can play the guitar yet struggles to find the key of a tune he's listening to and has to be constantly told isn't going to make it. Give him about 10 ITM cds and tell him to play along 'til he can do it blindfold. Failing that, he needs to get respectable and learn a melody instrument.
# Posted on November 15th 2007 by Steve Shaw
Re: Key to a tune.
Thanks again .Steve thats why I want to know how to pick out keys because I want to do it without being told . I have an A in my head so thats some of the battle its just applying it and beleiving in what I know so far and using the info I've got here.I'm learning how to play the odd tune and its slowly coming together Actually I'm finding it easier than the Bodhran .Why do people under estimate the work thats goes in to our beloved drum.
# Posted on November 15th 2007 by Saint
Re: Key to a tune.
Hey eddie, I didn't realise you were talking about yourself there!
Like all problems you're halfway to the solution because you realise there's a problem. I've come across backers who'll play in the wrong key for four minutes and still think they've done a great job. Not much hope for them.
# Posted on November 15th 2007 by Steve Shaw
Re: Key to a tune.
I think a lot of good backers get good at hearing mode "intervals" - the switch from one mode to the next.
So a lot of times, they'll hunt for the root of the key on the first tune in a set, but from there, they can "feel" how far it shifts, and in which direction when a new tune starts. Then they'll start by droning the root of they key until they figure out the mode (you can usually pick that up within the first phrase).
This is all talking about when they don't know the tune(s). Many good backers know the tunes about as well as the melody players, and they'll recognize the tune as quickly as another melody player will pick it up (often within the first few notes).
I do some accompaniment from time to time, but I don't do it enough to catch mode/key changes quite that quickly. I guess I can recognize D, G, and Em pretty quickly, but am a bit slower on the uptake on some of the other keys.
Pete
# Posted on November 15th 2007 by Reverend
Re: Key to a tune.
The key is to listen.
# Posted on November 15th 2007 by drone
Re: Key to a tune.
The key is to listen.
Bears repeating that one
# Posted on November 15th 2007 by jig
Re: Key to a tune.
You could listen from here to eternity (great film) and not know what key a tune or song was in, if you do not understand music theory.
Could I suggest that the key is to learn something about theory?
# Posted on November 15th 2007 by bodhran bliss
Re: Key to a tune.
On the ball Bliss because I've been listening to tunes alot but its a different kind of listening with the drum.A buddy suggested the same thing and he's going to go through a bit with me and give me a few books. Thanks again I've got some great ideas here .
Regards
Eddie
# Posted on November 15th 2007 by Saint
Re: Key to a tune.
if you want to train the ear there is a good software named "earmaster". there you can try recognizing notes and much more.
i'm not from the software company:D
btw: i liked Steve Shaw's "if you realize there is a problem you are in a half way to solve it"
:D
# Posted on November 15th 2007 by rasmewa
Re: Key to a tune.
'Bears repeating that one'!
Which bears do you have in mind, jig (or tradpiper or any of your other numerous other pseudonyms)?
Yogi, Huggie or Paddington?
I've read many of your messages over the last few months and I'm now utterly convinced that you really don't have a clue about the music you claim to espouse.
# Posted on November 15th 2007 by Floss the Tethers
Re: Key to a tune.
Again with the negative vibes...
Jig's right - getting a feel for the intervals between chords has to be the way to go, just as getting a feel for the intervals between notes is a massive help when picking out a melody.
# Posted on November 16th 2007 by bc_box_player
Re: Key to a tune.
He only responds to "jig," Geoff.
Good backers are as thin on the ground as good melody players here in darkest Kernow, and just to exacerbate the problem the good backers also play melody instruments. Their instincts, rightly in my view, are to eschew backing altogether and play the chunes. We have our very best times when we're all playing the melodies. Absolutely nothing seems to be lost. I recommend it!
# Posted on November 16th 2007 by Steve Shaw
Re: Key to a tune.
"Sing us a song your the pinao man..." I just love them typos.
# Posted on November 16th 2007 by chuneboi slim
Re: Key to a tune.
What are intervals between chords, bc_box_player? And I can't help feeling that getting a feel for the intervals between notes is the ONLY way to learn any melody!!
# Posted on November 16th 2007 by Steve Shaw
Re: Key to a tune.
Some tunes are easy to back and it easy to figure out the key and chords on the fly. But there are many others that have tonal shifts that will throw even a competent backer off. Other tunes might be in one key but sound like they start in a different key because of the first few notes. There are a bunch, for example, that are in G major but start on a C major chord. I've heard backers become confused and think a few of these tunes are in A dor until they suss it out.
The best backer I know for picking up twisty tunes on the fly is Junji Shirota. I remember one night when our local pub was having its 25th anniversary festival and Junji was the default backer for many of the musicians. At one point flute player, Conal O'Grada, played a very complex march (or highland maybe) with a lot of twisty tonal shifts. I was standing next to the stage and could see Conal watching Junji as though he was testing Junji's mettle with that particular tune, but Junji was backing it with perfection. When it ended Conal gave Junji an approving nod and then I asked Junji if he ever heard that tune before because I certainly hadn't. Junji laughed as he replied, "Never hear that tune before."
The point I'm making is that much of what a good backer does is based on a combination of knowledge, experience and musical intuition. Some people have extraordinary abilities in these areas, but most backers still have to sit out tunes they aren't familiar with until they have a chance to get familiar with them -- unless they're willing to risk hitting a few glaring wrong-sounding chords.
I personally appreciate when a backer realizes that they aren't familiar enough with certain tunes to back them sufficiently and know when to stop and listen. These are the same players who figure out the best tonal approach in the shortest amount of time and you're glad when they start playing again and offer their ideas for the tune in question.
# Posted on November 16th 2007 by Phantom Button
Re: Key to a tune.
I've heard many stories of his backing alright Jack...
I'd prefer to see him play rather than only hearing him on his albums which I'm sure don't do much justice.
# Posted on November 16th 2007 by Hugo Chavez
Re: Key to a tune.
Conal O'Grada favorite backing is a bodhran
# Posted on November 16th 2007 by Saint
Re: Key to a tune.
Conal O'Grada is the man.
# Posted on November 16th 2007 by jig
Re: Key to a tune.
That finished that coversation!
# Posted on November 16th 2007 by Saint
Re: Key to a tune.
"You could listen from here to eternity (great film) and not know what key a tune or song was in, if you do not understand music theory.
Could I suggest that the key is to learn something about theory?"
You could study music theory from here to eternity and not know what key a tune or song was in, if you don't listen.
I'm not arguing with you, Bliss - just trying to emphasise the fact that theory is only useful as a way to make sense of what you hear. Listening skills and theory need to be learned concurrently, as they are inextricably intertwined. This may be obvious to everyone and maybe I am just being overly pedantic, but it riles me a little every time somebody says 'learn theory', as if you can get all you need from reading a book.
# Posted on November 16th 2007 by ragaman
Re: Key to a tune.
I just realised that Phantom already pretty much said what I said, only put it better.
# Posted on November 16th 2007 by ragaman
Re: Key to a tune.
...and with a smilier face.
# Posted on November 16th 2007 by ragaman
Re: Key to a tune.
I'm not sure what the "key to a tune is". The discussion of the study of theory has peaked my interest though. I started playing Irish music at age 10 or so and never studied theory at all. Many people suggested taking a theory class at a local community college but I just never saw the need for it. Now, after 18 years of backing Irish music, a friend of mine who studies music at the University of Virginia tells me that I have a better grasp of music theory than some of the people in his classes. Is it possible that one can learn theory through observation of it's implementation, trial, and error? What I am suggesting is that the study of theory doesn't have to come first but can be learned through listening and playing? It has always felt sort of natural to me.
# Posted on January 29th 2008 by chordprogressions
Re: Key to a tune.
" What I am suggesting is that the study of theory doesn't have to come first but can be learned through listening and playing? "
Of course - theory is just a way of explaining what's already there.
If you have it in your ear you don't need theory.
# Posted on January 29th 2008 by BegF