There's no harm in learning some classical technique.it will help you get a good tone,use the bow well, hold the instrument correctly, play in tune, etc., but it's important not to end up playing tunes as if they were classical pieces, so as well as having lessons listen to as many different trad players as you can, to absorb trad style.
Yes, it will help you get a good tone, use the bow well, hold the instrument correctly. But bear in mind that there are plenty of really great fiddle players who do none of this.
Go for some classical lessons Kess you will always learn something that you can take away and help you with the trad playing. There is never a wasted minute when you are learning.
It will give you good intonation, bowing, posture and holding the fiddle the best way to avoid fatigue and muscle problems.
Just remember though that a lot of classical teachers look down their nose at traditional music forms..never be discouraged as they are the ones with the blinkers on and the problem!
best of luck and welcome to the best thing in the whole world
Maybe you can find one who does both? I have a teacher like that and I'm glad of the classical technique pointers, it helps tremendously (the exercises are a b*^&$, though!)---but there are times when fiddle technique differs, and it's good if you have someone who knows the difference and can point you in the right direction.
I think that the biggest help will be with technique and the mechanics of playing, like sound production and avoiding injury. I think it's really a good idea to do a least a little bit of study with a classical teacher - a good one though. It won't help you with getting the style of ITM, however. You might even sound a bit Scottish (I was accused of this!). Like Cathy said, listening to and studying with trad players will be important. As for Llig's comment, I definitely agree. There are many great fiddlers without impeccable classical technique, but there are also players who IMHO would sound significantly better if they used the bow a bit differently, the sort of thing you would learn about in classical lessons.
I just realized that I also rehashed what tombo said. Perhaps you could find a fiddle teacher with classical training...this might be the best of both worlds!
>>Just remember though that a lot of classical teachers look down their nose at traditional music forms..never be discouraged as they are the ones with the blinkers on and the problem!<>
Ar'nt there just! whew, if you get one dont mention you wanna play trad..... just pander to their conceit. could save you some grief. just say you couldnt possibly attempt a real piece of classical music, you just need some exercises for left and right hand technique so that one day you might be ready to approach these incredible pieces of music... but dont lay it on too thick!
You might be glad to know that some of the highest levels of baroque musicians would have plenty of respect for traditional music. It takes all sorts...
I've been playing the violin for 40 odd years now. I've found that doot doot n the kesh jig can really only be pulled off masterfully after practising Tchaikovsky's D Maj Violin Concerto (Op.35) for at least ten hours!
I've noticed more conceit and sneering among trad musicians towards classical than vice versa, (though the classical types probably tend to be more "polite" about what they say.)
Get a classical teacher to teach you that great slip jig "Jesu Joy of Man's Desiring"
A couple of months ago I was getting dissatisfied with some aspects of my playing (mainly technique), and could see that my experience as a cellist was starting to come to the end of the road as far as advancing my violin technique (and therefore playing) was concerned.
My local violin shop provided a list of recommended professional teachers in the area, and I chose one who was advertised on the list as “traditional tune based teaching, all folk styles, improvisation, Suzuki trained, very experienced teacher & performer” (plays in a band), and lives near me. There was no doubt after the first trial lesson that I did not need to look further.
The teaching is Suzuki based, with a lot of emphasis on tone production and bowing control. Each lesson raises a new point of technique that needs to be addressed, so I don't get everything thrown at me all at once. Some of the points include a detailed analysis of hand and fingers positions (both hands), and this analysis extends into other aspects of playing.
The music we're looking at is a couple of “student” concertos from the 19th century and one of the “easier” Vivaldi concertos (“easier” of course is only relative; there's no such thing as an “easy” concerto, no matter what level you play at). These “easy” concertos get you going on important points of playing in an interesting melodic fashion, and you realise from playing Vivaldi that there are close points of resemblance between baroque and Irish traditional music. Next week we'll also be looking at a couple of fiddle tunes from Quebec.
The bottom line is that, yes, I would advocate some classical violin training to firm up technique, and if you can find a teacher who is also into non-classical as well, then all the better. After all, solid technique is the foundation of all good playing, no matter the type of music.
I would like to point out that classical bowing should be completely thrown away when you play the fiddle. If you put yourself in the hands of a classical teacher, try to focus on your left hand only. They will screw up your bow arm if you let them by teaching you technique you will have to unlearn later on (if you want to sound like a fiddle player).
"classical bowing should be completely thrown away when you play the fiddle" I'm not sure what that means, or if it means what I think it might mean, then it is not possible.
Classical bowing is all about control and getting good quality sound out of a recalcitrant instrument with 120 lengths of horse-hair attached to a long stick. You need exactly that control if you want to be a good player of jazz fiddle, Irish trad fiddle, blue grass, classical, etc.
If you don't have that control you're going to get a feeble glassy sound and an obvious lack of coordination between bow and fingers.
A good teacher will know that different bowing styles are appropriate to different genres of music and to different ways of playing within a genre, such as Donegal bowing compared with Clare, for example; or in the classical genre, baroque bowing compared with that required for music of the 19/20th centuries.
A good teacher will teach bowing control that can be used to learn to play effectively in any style in any kind of music.
Obviously, a particular style is best taught by a user of that style. A Donegal fiddler would go to a Clare fiddler if he wanted to play in the Clare style. A classical violinist used to playing 19/20th century music would need detailed advice from a Baroque specilaist in order to play in the Baroque style. A classical violinist will also have to learn how to do the percussive bowed ornaments in Irish music. But all will find it a lot easier if they first have a solid foundation in bow control.
“I've noticed more conceit and sneering among trad musicians towards classical than vice versa, (though the classical types probably tend to be more "polite" about what they say.)”
That’s been my experience too, though there’s enough (= too much) snobbery on both sides. Most of today’s classical musicians grew up in an eclectic world and are not nearly as prone as the previous generation to look down their Depardieu at trad music.
I can’t speak directly about the fiddle because I never had any training on it, but after I had played guitar for about twenty years, I took a few months’ worth of lessons with a classical player. It opened my eyes and ears to some things I’d paid little attention to before, like intimate details of tone production, the use and mis-use of tension and how to train fingers to do new things. There’s nothing stylistically “classical” about any of that.
I disagree. One of the irritating attitudes that comes with a classical background (I know, I was brought up with it) is the idea that since a classically-trained person is able to play classical music, they have therefore mastered the instrument and can apply their mechanical ability to any style.
I was one of those people. I looked at fiddle players and all I saw was their left hand - jeez anyone could do that! And I made a fool of myself when I tried (not quite realizing what was wrong with my playing). For years I was frustrated, hearing a difference between good players and my own playing, not knowing the problem. It was the bowing. I finally realized I needed to start over and it took years to undo the classical habits and learn it all from the beginning.
I can no longer drop the tip of my bow silently onto the strings and I probably would have a hard time playing some fast sticcatto phrase... the classical "control" is gone. But I can play the fiddle now.
And the good fiddlers I've met with a similar background say they went through the same thing.
I'm not going to disagree or agree with anything that Glen has to say but I'd like to state that if this is the same Glen I know - his creds are top notch.
As a classical musician turned Irish fiddler with 16 years of stage experience behind me, I can safely say that I am no slouch. Glen's ability on the fiddle is something I aspire to. There is definately something behind his opinion.
Glenn, I hope my playing is up to your standards! I started off as a classical guy, and haven't had to "relearn" or "unlearn" anything, I just had to learn how to make new sounds. As a classical person, did you play Bach, Brahms, and Mozart all the same way? You didn't (or shouldn't have), and you didn't have to forget one to play the other. This is the same thing, just figuring out when to flex some muscles and relax some others (mental and physical...) Stuff you learn never hurts you.
I'm not pretending to be an expert. Just voicing what happened for me. The difference between playing Bach and Beethoven is significant to a classical player in many ways, including how the bow is used. However, there was (for me) a fundamental muscle-memory, a very primitive-level training about my bow arm that I never had to ponder or think about when playing classical music. This sub-conscience motor is the thing I had to uproot and replace because I was just unable to make That Sound using my right arm the way I had been trained to do.
I didn't feel I was adding to my bow-arm repertoire. I felt I was replacing it.
Maybe that would not be the same experience that others would have.
I'm now actually wondering if some of the bowing issues I have as a classical violist are due to my fiddle playing...
Ideally, I would like to think that by studying different kinds of music we are adding tools to our toolbox or weapons to our arsenal or whatever. We're really learning a new musical language or dialect as the case may be. It can be hard to go back and forth and some new stuff may replace the old, but I think it's possible to compartmentalize if we really work on it. Easier said than done though, right?
In my experiences with classical Irish, Scottish, Arabic, and Karnatak music, I can see both how certain things cross over and improve your musicianship in other styles and also the need to keep things distinct.
''compartmentalize'' thats the word alright, easiest way to annoy a traditional player is to ignorantly use techniques from a different style. Ultimately though, and you may not agree, you have to put both feet in one camp. If you really want to progress in that style.
Sure that doesn't mean nothing else! but as they say, chase 2 rabbits and you catch none.
Glenn's your point is very interesting , well worth considering.
But do you mean to say that now you cant play Bach? If you can still do all the stuff you used to then, surely you have just added to your skill bank rather than replacing some.
I'm not sure if I would necessarily agree about putting both feet in one camp. It really depends what you mean. To become proficient at any style of music requires a significant commitment of time and effort. I tend to be the mile wide and an inch deep type. I have met people though who are very, very good in more than one style, but it takes plenty of work.
Well, I can play Bach but it takes an amount of concentration to prevent it from sounding Irish. And to prevent the Irish from creeping into my bow arm feels very much like I'm preventing the life from coming into the music.
Ahem. With all the fiddlers out there - I'm sorry for going on about my personal experience. I really just meant to suggest that anyone going to a classical teacher should keep an eye on that right arm because (whether or not it sets you back) it won't be the same deal.
Hi Glenn - how's it going over there
Ive been making the transition to fiddle over the last few years - more a work in progress I should say.
Surely the best way to start is to get lessons from a trad player if possible even if it is not a Trad Irish fiddle player.
As an aside has anyone any opinions on Zoe Conway. I have heard it said that she is equally at home in classical or Trad genre and possible can play Jazz fiddle as well.
Glenn I have heard a lot of violinists play Bach, perhaps its my trad head but i prefer the ones who put life into it. Eg Yehudi Menuhin. Pablo Casels. heres a lovely quote from the master;
>>Pablo Casels was asked why at 95 years of age he still practised the cello 6 hours a day. He responded that he thought he was getting better.<<
all this talk about classical training being good for tone is wrong. It's good for a classical tone. A classical tone doesn't work for trad IMHO. In order to get a good trad tone you'd have to completely adjust whatever they teach you in classical.
It all depends what you want to sound like really, if you want to sound like one of these slick virtuosos then the classical training might be for you however if you want to be able to emulate the sounds of the great old trad players then avoid a classical teacher like the plague.
Fris, I think the point about tone is that a decent classical teacher can help you learn how to have some control over the tone you produce so you can sound the way *you* want to sound. I think that’s a very useful skill, regardless of the music you play.
I don’t think anybody here is advocating years of intensive classical regimen as a path to playing Irish trad tunes. But the classical tradition does contain an encyclopedic understanding of technical ability and how to develop it. When I took classical guitar lessons, I learned very little about how to play “classical” music, but a lot about how to train my fingers to do what *I* want them to do.
There is a set of rudimentary skills that are common to ITM and classical playing and most classical teachers are very good at helping a person develop those skils. When you take lessons, you don’t have to submit to indoctrination.
Yes, classical training gives you more control over the bow. With a classical bow hold your hand is in complete control over exactly where the bow is at any given time. It gives you a very crisp articulation on bow changes and solid tone throughout the stroke.
This is not always a good thing, although you will be hard pressed to convince a firm classical musician of this. If you want smoother quick notes, smoother variation in tone within a note, and a lilt that can come from a small rhythmic lean or pulse in your arm (things that are rather common in Irish styles), you need to give some of that control over to gravity and momentum. This gives you a far more natural sound.
I was trained classically for most of my life. Yes, Baroque music is far closer to traditional music than later styles of classical music, but still not nearly the same. To get the style in this music I use a very different bow hold. Actually, I use a couple of different bow holds depending on whether I'm playing with Donegal players or players from other areas. I guess I now have three working bow holds, one for classical, one for Donegal and one for any other Irish style.
Kess, whatever you learn from a classical teacher will be far better than no teacher at all. The left hand technique is very useful. The classical right hand technique will get you started, but always feel free to experiment with different bow holds on your own. Make a point of trying to get as many different sounds and tones out of your fiddle as you can. Then you can pick the sound you want. If you keep listening to great Irish players and try to match their sound, there in no teacher in the world that can stop you.
I particularly like the part about giving some of the bow control over to gravity and momentum for a more natural sound.
That's probably the best description of Irish bow technique I've ever heard.
And it perfectly explains why so many of us fiddlers end up with just the thumb and index finger in contact with the stick, particulary when doing bowed triplets.
Of course, I've seen classical violinists do something similar, lifting the pinky and ring finger free of the bow. But not with the subtle abandon more typical of Irish fiddlers.
I didn't go to Ennis a couple of weeks ago, but last weekend Ennis came to me, in the shape of the Turloughmore Ceili Band playing for the weekend at an Irish Festival at Burnham-on-Sea. That festival had been moved at the last minute from Porthcawl, 35 miles away on the other side of the Bristol Channel, the reason apparently being that a group of 150 had pulled out somewhat later than late.
Anyway, the set dancers were well provided for by the Band, with tuition by Padraig & Roisin McEneany (they taught the Sliabh Fraoch Set for the first time in my area), and the Band was on hand for music workshops.
I had a one-to-one workshop with one of the fiddlers in the Band, and was able to join in with the Band's session afterwards.
The point about this preamble as far as this discussion is concerned is that the young lady who taught me is not only an Irish fiddle player of the first rank but also plays in a symphony orchestra, and started learning the violin at the age of 4 by the Suzuki method.
This sort of ability appears to be not uncommon in Ireland, at least in the younger bands, and demonstrates that people can play the fiddle/violin well in both genres. It helps, of course, if you've been brought up to do this from an early age, but there is no reason, to my mind, why an older person can't also do it with the right motivation and tuition. To suggest otherwise is negative and defeatist.
Classical Violin Training of any use?
Classical Violin Training of any use?
Im learning to play fiddle and thought if I got some classical lessons that would be a good grounding in playing trad is that the case?
Or is it better just to play trad and forget about classical technique?
Cheers
# Posted on November 15th 2007 by Kess
Re: Classical Violin Training of any use?
There's no harm in learning some classical technique.it will help you get a good tone,use the bow well, hold the instrument correctly, play in tune, etc., but it's important not to end up playing tunes as if they were classical pieces, so as well as having lessons listen to as many different trad players as you can, to absorb trad style.
# Posted on November 15th 2007 by cathycook
Re: Classical Violin Training of any use?
Thanks for that Cathy
# Posted on November 15th 2007 by Kess
Re: Classical Violin Training of any use?
Yes, it will help you get a good tone, use the bow well, hold the instrument correctly. But bear in mind that there are plenty of really great fiddle players who do none of this.
# Posted on November 15th 2007 by llig leahcim
Re: Classical Violin Training of any use?
Go for some classical lessons Kess you will always learn something that you can take away and help you with the trad playing. There is never a wasted minute when you are learning.
It will give you good intonation, bowing, posture and holding the fiddle the best way to avoid fatigue and muscle problems.
Just remember though that a lot of classical teachers look down their nose at traditional music forms..never be discouraged as they are the ones with the blinkers on and the problem!
best of luck and welcome to the best thing in the whole world
# Posted on November 15th 2007 by fiddly dee fiddly doo oh how all take it so seriously!
Re: Classical Violin Training of any use?
Maybe you can find one who does both? I have a teacher like that and I'm glad of the classical technique pointers, it helps tremendously (the exercises are a b*^&$, though!)---but there are times when fiddle technique differs, and it's good if you have someone who knows the difference and can point you in the right direction.
# Posted on November 15th 2007 by kennedy
Re: Classical Violin Training of any use?
I think that the biggest help will be with technique and the mechanics of playing, like sound production and avoiding injury. I think it's really a good idea to do a least a little bit of study with a classical teacher - a good one though. It won't help you with getting the style of ITM, however. You might even sound a bit Scottish (I was accused of this!). Like Cathy said, listening to and studying with trad players will be important. As for Llig's comment, I definitely agree. There are many great fiddlers without impeccable classical technique, but there are also players who IMHO would sound significantly better if they used the bow a bit differently, the sort of thing you would learn about in classical lessons.
# Posted on November 15th 2007 by jasonb
Re: Classical Violin Training of any use?
I just realized that I also rehashed what tombo said. Perhaps you could find a fiddle teacher with classical training...this might be the best of both worlds!
# Posted on November 15th 2007 by jasonb
Re: Classical Violin Training of any use?
>>Just remember though that a lot of classical teachers look down their nose at traditional music forms..never be discouraged as they are the ones with the blinkers on and the problem!<>
Ar'nt there just! whew, if you get one dont mention you wanna play trad..... just pander to their conceit. could save you some grief. just say you couldnt possibly attempt a real piece of classical music, you just need some exercises for left and right hand technique so that one day you might be ready to approach these incredible pieces of music... but dont lay it on too thick!
You might be glad to know that some of the highest levels of baroque musicians would have plenty of respect for traditional music. It takes all sorts...
# Posted on November 15th 2007 by the wicked hacker
Re: Classical Violin Training of any use?
I've been playing the violin for 40 odd years now. I've found that doot doot n the kesh jig can really only be pulled off masterfully after practising Tchaikovsky's D Maj Violin Concerto (Op.35) for at least ten hours!
# Posted on November 15th 2007 by marcmcd
Re: Classical Violin Training of any use?
I've noticed more conceit and sneering among trad musicians towards classical than vice versa, (though the classical types probably tend to be more "polite" about what they say.)
Get a classical teacher to teach you that great slip jig "Jesu Joy of Man's Desiring"
# Posted on November 15th 2007 by TomB-R
Re: Classical Violin Training of any use?
A couple of months ago I was getting dissatisfied with some aspects of my playing (mainly technique), and could see that my experience as a cellist was starting to come to the end of the road as far as advancing my violin technique (and therefore playing) was concerned.
My local violin shop provided a list of recommended professional teachers in the area, and I chose one who was advertised on the list as “traditional tune based teaching, all folk styles, improvisation, Suzuki trained, very experienced teacher & performer” (plays in a band), and lives near me. There was no doubt after the first trial lesson that I did not need to look further.
The teaching is Suzuki based, with a lot of emphasis on tone production and bowing control. Each lesson raises a new point of technique that needs to be addressed, so I don't get everything thrown at me all at once. Some of the points include a detailed analysis of hand and fingers positions (both hands), and this analysis extends into other aspects of playing.
The music we're looking at is a couple of “student” concertos from the 19th century and one of the “easier” Vivaldi concertos (“easier” of course is only relative; there's no such thing as an “easy” concerto, no matter what level you play at). These “easy” concertos get you going on important points of playing in an interesting melodic fashion, and you realise from playing Vivaldi that there are close points of resemblance between baroque and Irish traditional music. Next week we'll also be looking at a couple of fiddle tunes from Quebec.
The bottom line is that, yes, I would advocate some classical violin training to firm up technique, and if you can find a teacher who is also into non-classical as well, then all the better. After all, solid technique is the foundation of all good playing, no matter the type of music.
# Posted on November 15th 2007 by lazyhound
Re: Classical Violin Training of any use?
I would like to point out that classical bowing should be completely thrown away when you play the fiddle. If you put yourself in the hands of a classical teacher, try to focus on your left hand only. They will screw up your bow arm if you let them by teaching you technique you will have to unlearn later on (if you want to sound like a fiddle player).
# Posted on November 15th 2007 by glenn
Re: Classical Violin Training of any use?
"classical bowing should be completely thrown away when you play the fiddle" I'm not sure what that means, or if it means what I think it might mean, then it is not possible.
Classical bowing is all about control and getting good quality sound out of a recalcitrant instrument with 120 lengths of horse-hair attached to a long stick. You need exactly that control if you want to be a good player of jazz fiddle, Irish trad fiddle, blue grass, classical, etc.
If you don't have that control you're going to get a feeble glassy sound and an obvious lack of coordination between bow and fingers.
A good teacher will know that different bowing styles are appropriate to different genres of music and to different ways of playing within a genre, such as Donegal bowing compared with Clare, for example; or in the classical genre, baroque bowing compared with that required for music of the 19/20th centuries.
A good teacher will teach bowing control that can be used to learn to play effectively in any style in any kind of music.
Obviously, a particular style is best taught by a user of that style. A Donegal fiddler would go to a Clare fiddler if he wanted to play in the Clare style. A classical violinist used to playing 19/20th century music would need detailed advice from a Baroque specilaist in order to play in the Baroque style. A classical violinist will also have to learn how to do the percussive bowed ornaments in Irish music. But all will find it a lot easier if they first have a solid foundation in bow control.
# Posted on November 15th 2007 by lazyhound
Re: Classical Violin Training of any use?
“I've noticed more conceit and sneering among trad musicians towards classical than vice versa, (though the classical types probably tend to be more "polite" about what they say.)”
That’s been my experience too, though there’s enough (= too much) snobbery on both sides. Most of today’s classical musicians grew up in an eclectic world and are not nearly as prone as the previous generation to look down their Depardieu at trad music.
I can’t speak directly about the fiddle because I never had any training on it, but after I had played guitar for about twenty years, I took a few months’ worth of lessons with a classical player. It opened my eyes and ears to some things I’d paid little attention to before, like intimate details of tone production, the use and mis-use of tension and how to train fingers to do new things. There’s nothing stylistically “classical” about any of that.
# Posted on November 15th 2007 by Bob himself
Re: Classical Violin Training of any use?
lazyhound,
I disagree. One of the irritating attitudes that comes with a classical background (I know, I was brought up with it) is the idea that since a classically-trained person is able to play classical music, they have therefore mastered the instrument and can apply their mechanical ability to any style.
I was one of those people. I looked at fiddle players and all I saw was their left hand - jeez anyone could do that! And I made a fool of myself when I tried (not quite realizing what was wrong with my playing). For years I was frustrated, hearing a difference between good players and my own playing, not knowing the problem. It was the bowing. I finally realized I needed to start over and it took years to undo the classical habits and learn it all from the beginning.
I can no longer drop the tip of my bow silently onto the strings and I probably would have a hard time playing some fast sticcatto phrase... the classical "control" is gone. But I can play the fiddle now.
And the good fiddlers I've met with a similar background say they went through the same thing.
Just my opinion..
# Posted on November 15th 2007 by glenn
Re: Classical Violin Training of any use?
I'm not going to disagree or agree with anything that Glen has to say but I'd like to state that if this is the same Glen I know - his creds are top notch.
As a classical musician turned Irish fiddler with 16 years of stage experience behind me, I can safely say that I am no slouch. Glen's ability on the fiddle is something I aspire to. There is definately something behind his opinion.
# Posted on November 15th 2007 by Mark Cordova
Re: Classical Violin Training of any use?
Glenn, I hope my playing is up to your standards! I started off as a classical guy, and haven't had to "relearn" or "unlearn" anything, I just had to learn how to make new sounds. As a classical person, did you play Bach, Brahms, and Mozart all the same way? You didn't (or shouldn't have), and you didn't have to forget one to play the other. This is the same thing, just figuring out when to flex some muscles and relax some others (mental and physical...) Stuff you learn never hurts you.
# Posted on November 15th 2007 by reenactor
Re: Classical Violin Training of any use?
Reenactor,
I'm not pretending to be an expert. Just voicing what happened for me. The difference between playing Bach and Beethoven is significant to a classical player in many ways, including how the bow is used. However, there was (for me) a fundamental muscle-memory, a very primitive-level training about my bow arm that I never had to ponder or think about when playing classical music. This sub-conscience motor is the thing I had to uproot and replace because I was just unable to make That Sound using my right arm the way I had been trained to do.
I didn't feel I was adding to my bow-arm repertoire. I felt I was replacing it.
Maybe that would not be the same experience that others would have.
# Posted on November 16th 2007 by glenn
Re: Classical Violin Training of any use?
I'm now actually wondering if some of the bowing issues I have as a classical violist are due to my fiddle playing...
Ideally, I would like to think that by studying different kinds of music we are adding tools to our toolbox or weapons to our arsenal or whatever. We're really learning a new musical language or dialect as the case may be. It can be hard to go back and forth and some new stuff may replace the old, but I think it's possible to compartmentalize if we really work on it. Easier said than done though, right?
In my experiences with classical Irish, Scottish, Arabic, and Karnatak music, I can see both how certain things cross over and improve your musicianship in other styles and also the need to keep things distinct.
# Posted on November 16th 2007 by jasonb
Re: Classical Violin Training of any use?
''compartmentalize'' thats the word alright, easiest way to annoy a traditional player is to ignorantly use techniques from a different style. Ultimately though, and you may not agree, you have to put both feet in one camp. If you really want to progress in that style.
Sure that doesn't mean nothing else! but as they say, chase 2 rabbits and you catch none.
Glenn's your point is very interesting , well worth considering.
But do you mean to say that now you cant play Bach? If you can still do all the stuff you used to then, surely you have just added to your skill bank rather than replacing some.
# Posted on November 16th 2007 by the wicked hacker
Re: Classical Violin Training of any use?
I'm not sure if I would necessarily agree about putting both feet in one camp. It really depends what you mean. To become proficient at any style of music requires a significant commitment of time and effort. I tend to be the mile wide and an inch deep type. I have met people though who are very, very good in more than one style, but it takes plenty of work.
# Posted on November 16th 2007 by jasonb
Re: Classical Violin Training of any use?
jig-
Well, I can play Bach but it takes an amount of concentration to prevent it from sounding Irish. And to prevent the Irish from creeping into my bow arm feels very much like I'm preventing the life from coming into the music.
# Posted on November 16th 2007 by glenn
Re: Classical Violin Training of any use?
Ahem. With all the fiddlers out there - I'm sorry for going on about my personal experience. I really just meant to suggest that anyone going to a classical teacher should keep an eye on that right arm because (whether or not it sets you back) it won't be the same deal.
# Posted on November 16th 2007 by glenn
Re: Classical Violin Training of any use?
Hi Glenn - how's it going over there
Ive been making the transition to fiddle over the last few years - more a work in progress I should say.
Surely the best way to start is to get lessons from a trad player if possible even if it is not a Trad Irish fiddle player.
As an aside has anyone any opinions on Zoe Conway. I have heard it said that she is equally at home in classical or Trad genre and possible can play Jazz fiddle as well.
# Posted on November 16th 2007 by Donough
Re: Classical Violin Training of any use?
Donough =) Nice to see ya. Things are good here. Going to be a daddy soon.
But man I miss Perth.
# Posted on November 16th 2007 by glenn
Re: Classical Violin Training of any use?
Glenn, Come visit us again; the weather is warming up nicely now. Congrats on the fatherhood.
# Posted on November 16th 2007 by Donough
Re: Classical Violin Training of any use?
Glenn I have heard a lot of violinists play Bach, perhaps its my trad head but i prefer the ones who put life into it. Eg Yehudi Menuhin. Pablo Casels. heres a lovely quote from the master;
>>Pablo Casels was asked why at 95 years of age he still practised the cello 6 hours a day. He responded that he thought he was getting better.<<
# Posted on November 16th 2007 by the wicked hacker
Re: Classical Violin Training of any use?
all this talk about classical training being good for tone is wrong. It's good for a classical tone. A classical tone doesn't work for trad IMHO. In order to get a good trad tone you'd have to completely adjust whatever they teach you in classical.
It all depends what you want to sound like really, if you want to sound like one of these slick virtuosos then the classical training might be for you however if you want to be able to emulate the sounds of the great old trad players then avoid a classical teacher like the plague.
# Posted on November 16th 2007 by Fartknocker
Re: Classical Violin Training of any use?
Fris, I think the point about tone is that a decent classical teacher can help you learn how to have some control over the tone you produce so you can sound the way *you* want to sound. I think that’s a very useful skill, regardless of the music you play.
I don’t think anybody here is advocating years of intensive classical regimen as a path to playing Irish trad tunes. But the classical tradition does contain an encyclopedic understanding of technical ability and how to develop it. When I took classical guitar lessons, I learned very little about how to play “classical” music, but a lot about how to train my fingers to do what *I* want them to do.
There is a set of rudimentary skills that are common to ITM and classical playing and most classical teachers are very good at helping a person develop those skils. When you take lessons, you don’t have to submit to indoctrination.
# Posted on November 16th 2007 by Bob himself
Re: Classical Violin Training of any use?
Yes, classical training gives you more control over the bow. With a classical bow hold your hand is in complete control over exactly where the bow is at any given time. It gives you a very crisp articulation on bow changes and solid tone throughout the stroke.
This is not always a good thing, although you will be hard pressed to convince a firm classical musician of this. If you want smoother quick notes, smoother variation in tone within a note, and a lilt that can come from a small rhythmic lean or pulse in your arm (things that are rather common in Irish styles), you need to give some of that control over to gravity and momentum. This gives you a far more natural sound.
I was trained classically for most of my life. Yes, Baroque music is far closer to traditional music than later styles of classical music, but still not nearly the same. To get the style in this music I use a very different bow hold. Actually, I use a couple of different bow holds depending on whether I'm playing with Donegal players or players from other areas. I guess I now have three working bow holds, one for classical, one for Donegal and one for any other Irish style.
Kess, whatever you learn from a classical teacher will be far better than no teacher at all. The left hand technique is very useful. The classical right hand technique will get you started, but always feel free to experiment with different bow holds on your own. Make a point of trying to get as many different sounds and tones out of your fiddle as you can. Then you can pick the sound you want. If you keep listening to great Irish players and try to match their sound, there in no teacher in the world that can stop you.
# Posted on November 16th 2007 by fiddleK
Re: Classical Violin Training of any use?
Great post fiddleK!
I particularly like the part about giving some of the bow control over to gravity and momentum for a more natural sound.
That's probably the best description of Irish bow technique I've ever heard.
And it perfectly explains why so many of us fiddlers end up with just the thumb and index finger in contact with the stick, particulary when doing bowed triplets.
Of course, I've seen classical violinists do something similar, lifting the pinky and ring finger free of the bow. But not with the subtle abandon more typical of Irish fiddlers.
Thanks for sharing that.
# Posted on November 16th 2007 by Miss Lonelyhearts
Re: Classical Violin Training of any use?
"That's probably the best description of Irish bow technique I've ever heard."
Yeah, I like that too.
# Posted on November 17th 2007 by Bob himself
Re: Classical Violin Training of any use?
Thanks guys! I'm all pink now.
# Posted on November 17th 2007 by fiddleK
Re: Classical Violin Training of any use?
I have a certificate in violin from the New England Conservatory of Music and a BA in Ethnomusicology, but I teach Fiddle.
# Posted on November 18th 2007 by celticagent
Re: Classical Violin Training of any use?
I didn't go to Ennis a couple of weeks ago, but last weekend Ennis came to me, in the shape of the Turloughmore Ceili Band playing for the weekend at an Irish Festival at Burnham-on-Sea. That festival had been moved at the last minute from Porthcawl, 35 miles away on the other side of the Bristol Channel, the reason apparently being that a group of 150 had pulled out somewhat later than late.
Anyway, the set dancers were well provided for by the Band, with tuition by Padraig & Roisin McEneany (they taught the Sliabh Fraoch Set for the first time in my area), and the Band was on hand for music workshops.
I had a one-to-one workshop with one of the fiddlers in the Band, and was able to join in with the Band's session afterwards.
The point about this preamble as far as this discussion is concerned is that the young lady who taught me is not only an Irish fiddle player of the first rank but also plays in a symphony orchestra, and started learning the violin at the age of 4 by the Suzuki method.
This sort of ability appears to be not uncommon in Ireland, at least in the younger bands, and demonstrates that people can play the fiddle/violin well in both genres. It helps, of course, if you've been brought up to do this from an early age, but there is no reason, to my mind, why an older person can't also do it with the right motivation and tuition. To suggest otherwise is negative and defeatist.
I don't think I have anything more to say.
# Posted on November 21st 2007 by lazyhound