Don't FRET over the backing! Hoovers & left hands...
Don't FRET over the backing! Hoovers & left hands...
One often reads about bad backing when it is a six string devil player (or other fretted chordy thing operative) systematically strumming scheit.
What is moaned about less often is the sometimes dreadful tuneless backing provided by the left hands of box players and/ or the inappropriate “hoover” pitch selection of the pipes players?
Now, I know that generally those instruments are playing “the actual tune” (which, indeed is the whole point of this music) and but are they never criticized for sounding less than fab in the accompaniment department? Is it to do with the blind faith-like perceived trad credentials of these instruments? i.e. “they can do no wrong but six string devils, well they’re modern interlopers, innit?”
But sometimes one’s suitably sparse, modal, counterpointy, rhythmically tight backing is reduced to a meaningless dirge due to the above.
Steady now!!!
Re: Don't FRET over the backing! Hoovers & left hands...
Bring it on - this could be good.
In defence of pipers I once flatpicked a tune at a session in New Zealand where a piper did awesome accompaniment on the regulators. That was a great example of role reversal.
Re: Don't FRET over the backing! Hoovers & left hands...
Yhaalhouse - are you talking about *out of tune* drones or just a drone note that you perceive as not fitting the mode of the tune, from a chordal point of view (e.g. a D drone under a tune in E dorian)?
Re: Don't FRET over the backing! Hoovers & left hands...
Some pipers will turn their drones off for certain tunes. The drone note could not really be called a 'selection', since uilleann pipes (unlike modern Northumbrian pipes) only have one drone note available - that is to say, one note of the scale in three octaves. But I actually find that the drones can reveal certain aspects of a tune which are not otherwise obvious. Yes, it is limiting to the backer (But aren't limitations are what a musical genre is all about? If there were none, this music might sound like Delius or Destiny's Child), but it has interesting harmonic implications and can lead you top places you would not necessarily have arrived at though 'classical' harmony. For example, in a tune in A dorian, the obvious chord choices would probably be A minor and G, with perhaps an occasional D - but the tune would 'want' to resolve onto A minor. Enter the drone and suddenly the A minor chord doesn't work anymore because there's a D under it - you can use it, but it won't feel like a resolution. The D drone makes you want to play a D chord more. But the C natural in the melody implies a 7th chord (even if you don't play one), which makes you want to resolve onto G. So the tune is then in G. Except it's not really. So it never quite resolves. And that's beautiful - to me, anyway. There are many more possiblities with other non-D modes.
Maybe I'm just a hapless victim of brainwashing.
I'm not ready to comment on accordion basses yet. But I think I know which box player you have in mind, Yh.
Re: Don't FRET over the backing! Hoovers & left hands...
Whilst on the subject of backing…
We all know that a bunch of (apparently random) chord bashers is not in the spirit of ITM and can spoil a set’s delectable rocking groove. Different backers may well know the tune (an absolute for “correct” backing) but all may have different concept of an implied harmony for any one tune. That is unless someone arranges (dictates) what harmonies are going to be used and they stick to it, but that is not what sessions are about n’est que pas? Additionally, individual detailed rhythmic understanding of any tune may differ. (This is also applicable to Bodhran players and percussionists generally of course!) This may all lead to the nasty pan-diatonic arrhythmic melee that is so often referred to here on this forum.
The answer may be for just one backer to back at a time. If another backer turns up, I often stop backing and let them get on with it. Or see what their chord choices and groove are and quietly mimic it the second time round. Doesn’t account for how you deal with lateral backing choices of boxes and pipes players though!!!
Re: Don't FRET over the backing! Hoovers & left hands...
Fascinating! Thanks to an utter dearth of pipers here in the cultural wasteland of Florida, this is not an issue I have to deal with to much. I can relate a little about these here parts, I suppose, if it helps.
I often deliver a glancing blow to the octave string on certain beat notes in the tune for emphasis as an ornament, though it's certainly not droning as it lasts for only as long as the open string octave can resonate, i.e., before I have to use the string again to play a different note. It's often nifty wih those A minor tunes that go back to G on he B part, for example, or a tune in G with a key "beat" notes with the G on the D string while doubling the open low G for emphasis. Not droning, just a little "oomph" on the rhythm. It's kinda nifty. No one has struck me or hollered yet, so I think they like it...
I notice the nifty box players I play with are doing something over there in the accompanying note department while they are also playing the tune. I can't tell you exactly, but what I can say is that it does not alter the natural chords of the tune, it follows with them and they seem to do a lovely job, whatever the heck it is they are doing there. (HA!)
...and I suppose most pertantly to your discussion, the backers ain't bitching about the fiddler or box player funking them up, so alls all that ends well. I can see where it may throw one off though with the limitations in droning as NameChanges pointed out. Fascinating! (X2!)
Re: Don't FRET over the backing! Hoovers & left hands...
>>But sometimes one’s suitably sparse, modal, counterpointy, rhythmically tight backing is reduced to a meaningless dirge due to the above<<
OK well lets start at stage one. counterpoint is, as far as i am aware a western art music concept best left there, the harmony in trad generally being confined to I, III, and IV. with Possible extensions being implied from the drones.
I have played with numerous pipers and box players and never have had a problem.
It is my contention that you are maybe imposing your concepts of ITM on the real thing, thus to you it may sound bad.
I see people playing this counterpointy style a lot. Im not sure where they get it from. Do you know? Where did you get it from ?
To my mind the job of the guitar is not to add harmonic movement, but to support the tune and players by adding the warmth and cohesion , the glue in the mix perhaps.
THe pipes and box are most likely playing the right chords in the right place.
They say it takes 7 tears to play the chanter, 7 with the drones and 7 more for the regulators.21 yrs to become a full piper. Perhaps if you are talking about an individual piper then they have progressed to early to a full set?
Re: Don't FRET over the backing! Hoovers & left hands...
So Jig, how do you feel about Leo Rowsome? Is that "counterpointy" piping?
I think it might be better to say "the harmony in trad music tends to be I, IV, and V, unless it's modal, where people use bVII", but I get your point.
yhaalhouse, can't backers come up with the same sort of groupthink that tune people do? I mean, chords are easy enough to hear/read from people's hands... I play melody a lot more often than I back, but when I do, I just pick a guitarist and do what they do. If I do that long enough, a give-and-take develops with chord choices... just a third path here...
Re: Don't FRET over the backing! Hoovers & left hands...
Ok i didnt mean chords 1,3 and 5 but the notes of the chords.
>> In music, counterpoint is the relationship between two or more voices that are independent in contour and rhythm, and interdependent in harmony. <<
I think Leo Rowsome is great, but not counterpoint. Check out JS Bach for counter point.
I think yhallhouse is referring to chordal accompaniment that cant be visually recognized,like the left hand of the box or regulators on the pipes.
I automatically follow another backer unless they dont have a clue in which case they had better follow me!
Re: Don't FRET over the backing! Hoovers & left hands...
hmm, I've never heard the 21 years thing stated quite like that. I always heard "7 years of listening, 7 years of practice, and 7 years of playing..."
One of the pipers I play with gets glared at by some people pretty much whenever he touches the regulators, unless he's playing solo.. They're difficult to get in tune, and then when you're playing in a session environment, the chord choice often clashes with whatever the bouzouki or guitar players might have in mind.
And SWFL, you should maybe revel in the "utter dearth" you have down there... I play in sessions occasionally with 3 pipers... the only thing worse might be 3 banjos!
Re: Don't FRET over the backing! Hoovers & left hands...
you're talking out of your hole yhaalhouse, shut up!!!! has anyone got the link to the yhaalhouse is an arsehole discussion that was posted up a few months back.??? if deleted bring it back.......
Re: Don't FRET over the backing! Hoovers & left hands...
Jig,
You know, I think I totally misread your post. Damn it coffee, work faster! You weren't referring to "counterpointy" pipe playing at all, or whatever I thought I was reading.
*grins* I had to take 16th-20th C counterpoint for my Uni training, so I'm on it .
It *is* harder to coordinate backing when you can't see someone's hands so much, esp. in a noisy bar.
Re: Don't FRET over the backing! Hoovers & left hands...
>>How do they learn/ know what to choose?<<
ITs a simple matter, as in ways is backing trad,Learn the tunes, learn or figure out the chord pattern. Play lots .
Having the melody in your head will be of immense value in this.
Better yet have it on an instrument.
Dont knock 3 chords, there is an incredible amount of combinations and patterns to be had from even 2 chords.
After all a lot of the tunes only have 9 to 13 notes!
Its what you make of them that matters.
Re: Don't FRET over the backing! Hoovers & left hands...
So let me get this straight yallhouse, you are right (and in a hip, cool, modal, counterpoint manner no less), playing along with your bouzouki or ukelele (I have never seen a user profile with so many words that said so little) and everyone else, (even with instruments that have been part of the Irish tradition for far longer than yours) is wrong.
Some people accompany well, and some people don't, regardless of the instrument. But within the realm of good accompaniment, there are many ways to approach each tune, which (if you opened your mind a little) you might incorporate into your own playing, and instead of criticizing the contributions of others, you might learn new ways to contribute to those tunes yourself.
Re: Don't FRET over the backing! Hoovers & left hands...
"you're talking out of your hole yhaalhouse, shut up!!!! has anyone got the link to the yhaalhouse is an arsehole discussion......"
"So let me get this straight yallhouse, you are right....."
I don't know the history behind this but , somewhere amid the tangle of similes and metaphors in yhaalhouse's initial post is a valid question, I think.
Re: Don't FRET over the backing! Hoovers & left hands...
Good link, SWFL. I was drooling over the 2 Paragons being played in there...
Kind of reminds me of a set we did in a St. Pats concert last year that we called the "banjo bullies". 6 banjos and a "neckless banjo" (bodhran). We did it just for fun, but the crowd seemed to enjoy it... Thank god there weren't any box players or pipers in that set (just to keep on topic here)
Re: Don't FRET over the backing! Hoovers & left hands...
And other nights when one or two would stop by, late at night or in the wee hours. The smell of drink and the rough laughter and fiddles stashed under heavy raincoats. And my granny would rouse herself from her bed and put the kettle and the griddle on and soon there'd be the smell of bread baking to add to the odours of beer and whisky, wet coats and damp boots (all now, steaming by the fire which my granda had poked and stoked back into full-blooded life). And then, the tunes ... savage! I can mind being, oh about 14 or so, and long since in bed when my da woke me up. "There's a few fellas have turned up for a bit of sport. Do you want to wake up and sit in with us?" And that was my coming of age. Sitting in our front room, playing tunes with the local musicians. And, no-one prompted me. No-one said "Wait till you hear our Mikey play!" I just found a wee pause and started out on "The Boys of The Lough". At first I was terrible nervous, but the tune started coming and by the first go round the tail, I had my eyes closed and I was lost in the tune. And on the second go-round, I heard my granda fall in behind me and we played it, I'm sure, a dozen times. Me sticking to the tune, but my granda playing around it, each time a new twist to the tune. And then we stopped and I opened my eyes. And my granda was smiling like a leek, but his oul eyes were wet. And my da winked at me and passed me a bottle of stout. And that was my coming-of-age. Playing tunes with these grown men and all of us equals while we had fiddles under our chins.
And then we move on. To London (or "the London", as my granda always called it) when I fitrst came over here, an eager young man, ready and rearing to take on life. And, as you did, I made my way to the Irish pubs around the place and the sights and sounds of those days will be forever with me. Jimmy Power had so much swagger and self-confidence. You didn't mess with Jimmy. He was the King and well knew it. But didn't boast about it. Didn't need to. And Martin Byrnes. Boy, could Byrnes play! And lovely Lucy Farr. She always seemed out of place in those rough-hewn pubs. But everyone treated her withe utmost respect. If Power was the king, then Lucy was some sort of queen.
And other things come to mind. Joe Whelan and Liam Farrell and Raymond Roland. The Rakes. Cheeseman's Dance Hall, crammed to the rafters on Saturday nights. Danny Meehan, irreverent as usual. Reg Hall - no matter where you used to go - there was Reg. And the bush telegraph that led us excitedly to this or that pub when Joe Burke was maybe visiting for a few days. One time when The Dubliners were over on a tour and as soon as the gig was over, Barney vanished and I can picture yet Mick O'Connor listening in rapture and drinking in every note.
And we move closer to the present day. Brian Rooney, John Whelan, John Bow, John Blake, John Carty. And nearer still, Mick Mulvey, Brian Kelly, Kane O'Rourke. And all of the hundreds of other great musicians around "the London".
I'll not mention any names. But only a few nights ago I found myself in one of those unassuming pubs which are great for a session and I heard two fiddlers playing, a brother and a sister, some lovely tunes. And it was one of those great moments which happen sometimes in sessions. Although all hands knew the tunes, they all stopped playing and just listened to this pair fiddling together in such tight unison you'd swear to God that they were readning each other's minds.
And that's what I've always loved about the London Irish music scene. I grew up with the music. It was part of my everyday world and yet I think I got far more tunes in London than I ever did at home (but without the home grounding, sure them tunes would have meant nothing!). And I've always thought, and said, that London is the capital city of Irish Music. (And those of my pals who've visted through the years have always thought so, too.) And no matter where I've strayed in life (and I've travelled about a fair bit), I always come back to London for a while, to soak up some that great music which the boys and girls flake out seven nights a week!
So you can poosibly well imagine how it galls me to witness the yahoo who started this particular discussion dip his toe into this great music scene and without any informed knowledge or feel for this music, begin to pontificate. This seemingly bottomless well of knowledge? A fellow who's only lately tuaken to turning up at sessions armed with (and I use the word armed intentionally) with a UKULELE.
An ceol will, of course, weather many storms, one glipe alone won't bring it to its knees. But how someone can dare to INSULT the music as this man does, by strumming a UKULELE all over the top of it, and then write in this place as if he knows anything about the music is beyond me!
Well, my challenge stands, boy! (See an earlier dsicussion here.). You can put your money where your mouth is or else you can do the decent thing and stop trying to wreck every session in London and possibly this website as well!
Re: Don't FRET over the backing! Hoovers & left hands...
Sorry ... I'll start again.
Some very wise and sensible people have urged me to contain myself. But I can't help it. Things need to be said and I'm not going to be behind the door in saying them.
There's times I think of where this great music comes from. Its heart, its soul. I mind my granda, God rest him, taking the fiddle down from the chimney breast of an evening and raking out a blast of reels and quizzing me. "What was that middle one?" And showing me how to play it, going over phrases time and again for me to repeat and then putting the whole thing together again and playing it maybe twenty or thirty times till it got into my head. And my da would be laughing and telling my granda to aisy on, else he'll scare the music out of me. But devil the bit! Before long, my da would have his fiddle out and the three of us would be sitting there, battering out the tunes and my granda - always an old man from as long ago as I can remember - the nimblest and sweetest player of the lot of us. He could make the sprightliest reel sound sad; he had some faraway sound to his music, some heartbrokenness, that I could never get and his playing always had me hypnotised. I would have walked a hundred miles through nettles to listen to him playing and now that he's gone, God rest him, I would die a happy man just to hear him give me one of his old favourites, The Earl's Chair or The Boys Of The Lough, say, just one more time.
And other nights when one or two would stop by, late at night or in the wee hours. The smell of drink and the rough laughter and fiddles stashed under heavy raincoats. And my granny would rouse herself from her bed and put the kettle and the griddle on and soon there'd be the smell of bread baking to add to the odours of beer and whisky, wet coats and damp boots (all now, steaming by the fire which my granda had poked and stoked back into full-blooded life). And then, the tunes ... savage! I can mind being, oh about 14 or so, and long since in bed when my da woke me up. "There's a few fellas have turned up for a bit of sport. Do you want to wake up and sit in with us?" And that was my coming of age. Sitting in our front room, playing tunes with the local musicians. And, no-one prompted me. No-one said "Wait till you hear our Mikey play!" I just found a wee pause and started out on "The Boys of The Lough". At first I was terrible nervous, but the tune started coming and by the first go round the tail, I had my eyes closed and I was lost in the tune. And on the second go-round, I heard my granda fall in behind me and we played it, I'm sure, a dozen times. Me sticking to the tune, but my granda playing around it, each time a new twist to the tune. And then we stopped and I opened my eyes. And my granda was smiling like a leek, but his oul eyes were wet. And my da winked at me and passed me a bottle of stout. And that was my coming-of-age. Playing tunes with these grown men and all of us equals while we had fiddles under our chins.
And then we move on. To London (or "the London", as my granda always called it) when I fitrst came over here, an eager young man, ready and rearing to take on life. And, as you did, I made my way to the Irish pubs around the place and the sights and sounds of those days will be forever with me. Jimmy Power had so much swagger and self-confidence. You didn't mess with Jimmy. He was the King and well knew it. But didn't boast about it. Didn't need to. And Martin Byrnes. Boy, could Byrnes play! And lovely Lucy Farr. She always seemed out of place in those rough-hewn pubs. But everyone treated her withe utmost respect. If Power was the king, then Lucy was some sort of queen.
And other things come to mind. Joe Whelan and Liam Farrell and Raymond Roland. The Rakes. Cheeseman's Dance Hall, crammed to the rafters on Saturday nights. Danny Meehan, irreverent as usual. Reg Hall - no matter where you used to go - there was Reg. And the bush telegraph that led us excitedly to this or that pub when Joe Burke was maybe visiting for a few days. One time when The Dubliners were over on a tour and as soon as the gig was over, Barney vanished and I can picture yet Mick O'Connor listening in rapture and drinking in every note.
And we move closer to the present day. Brian Rooney, John Whelan, John Bow, John Blake, John Carty. And nearer still, Mick Mulvey, Brian Kelly, Kane O'Rourke. And all of the hundreds of other great musicians around "the London".
I'll not mention any names. But only a few nights ago I found myself in one of those unassuming pubs which are great for a session and I heard two fiddlers playing, a brother and a sister, some lovely tunes. And it was one of those great moments which happen sometimes in sessions. Although all hands knew the tunes, they all stopped playing and just listened to this pair fiddling together in such tight unison you'd swear to God that they were readning each other's minds.
And that's what I've always loved about the London Irish music scene. I grew up with the music. It was part of my everyday world and yet I think I got far more tunes in London than I ever did at home (but without the home grounding, sure them tunes would have meant nothing!). And I've always thought, and said, that London is the capital city of Irish Music. (And those of my pals who've visted through the years have always thought so, too.) And no matter where I've strayed in life (and I've travelled about a fair bit), I always come back to London for a while, to soak up some that great music which the boys and girls flake out seven nights a week!
So you can poosibly well imagine how it galls me to witness the yahoo who started this particular discussion dip his toe into this great music scene and without any informed knowledge or feel for this music, begin to pontificate. This seemingly bottomless well of knowledge? A fellow who's only lately tuaken to turning up at sessions armed with (and I use the word armed intentionally) with a UKULELE.
An ceol will, of course, weather many storms, one glipe alone won't bring it to its knees. But how someone can dare to INSULT the music as this man does, by strumming a UKULELE all over the top of it, and then write in this place as if he knows anything about the music is beyond me!
Well, my challenge stands, boy! You can put your money where your mouth is or else you can do the decent thing and stop trying to wreck every session in London and possibly this website as well!
Re: Don't FRET over the backing! Hoovers & left hands...
Well said Micky. Thanks for the beautiful piece of descriptive writing there.
And let it be known you are not alone in expressing condemnation of this balloon who started this thread, who has no idea about what this music is about, who thinks he can come on here and have a wee cockney larff and call the drones of the pipes a hoover and so on. Who thinks he has somehow earned the right to wind people up. Who has fvcked up more session than just the ones in your end of town.
There are several people, near enough all the sessioneers I've met with even an inkling of knowledge of the music, who've had the misfortune to encounter the bollix, detest him and his pathetic attempts at trying to join in on the craic. And will it make any difference? Probably not - it seems he has a hide as thick as a rhinoceros's.
Re: Don't FRET over the backing! Hoovers & left hands...
Yhaalhouse may have a valid point, but the fact that he treats the music with so damned little respect, both in person and on this website, invalidates his arguments.
I've been thinking about the stuff I wrote last night and I'd just like to remind people of the tremendous dignity that the generation of players from the 60s and 70s possessed. When I first came to London, the English weren't as liberal as they now are and many Irish people felt not a little intimidated by the covert and overt hostility that we experienced. People like Jimmy Power and his like carried themselves proudly and with a great sense of pride and dignity. I'm sure I wasn't the only one to come away from music sessions with a greater sense of pride in myself and in my fellow Irishmen (and those English people such as Reg Hall who understood us and our music).
Hence the coarse indignity, abrasiveness disguised as humour and flippancy of this dicussion's starter rankles with me. American folkies have a wee saying that goes "What woudl Woody have done?". I always ask myself "What would Jimmy Power have done?" or, occasionally, "What would Willie Clancy have done?". In your man's case, I think the answer is blindingly obvious!
Re: Don't FRET over the backing! Hoovers & left hands...
Hello Micky Finn,
You write eloquently.
A slight digression from the topic,but in response to your remarks about London a few decades ago.There was a mention on the radio by the Irish author of a book (I didn't catch the mans name,but the book titled 'Luck and the irish') that he believes that the English (and maybe other nations) feeling lost,are now seeing Ireland (and Irish people and culture),as a kind of oracle,which they are turning to for guidance as to how to live...
Re: Don't FRET over the backing! Hoovers & left hands...
Micky - I enjoyed reading your piece. Now that I live in a place without much Irish music, and without any established 'scene' at all, I realise how privileged I was when I lived in London.
As another toe-dipper into traditional music (Well, I like to think that I'm in up to my ankles - in fact, I sometimes feel as if I'm in way over my head - but you'd be the better judge of that, Micky), I feel that you and others of similar musical experience do not appreciate how certain aspects of the music are perceived by those coming to it from other musical genres.
Having myself grown up with classical and popular music as my main, with their own concepts of harmony and in-tune-ness impressed upon me, I have struggled to comprehend, for example, fiddlers' intonation (Why doesn't he play in tune?), pipers' use of drones and regulators (Why is he playing the chords the wrong way round? Why is he using a D drone on a tune that resolves on E?) and box players' chord choices (Why is he playing the same chord all the way through the tune?).
To complicate matters, there are many respected traditional musicians whose musical aesthetics *do* seem to conform more closely to the classical model - Arty McGlynn, for example, is unlikely to back a tune with the same chords as Johnny Doran would have played on his regulators (although, in the hypothetical event that McGlynn were called upon to accompany Doran, he would no doubt adjust his chord choice to tie in with Doran's, or more likely, deem chordal accompaniment inappropriate and play the tune). Similarly, Liz Carroll's playing is much closer to equal temperament than, say, that of Michael Gorman or John Kelly. Finbarr Dwyer (on the box) makes far more extensive use of his left-hand chords than, say, Johnny Connolly. So it is tempting to think that the players who fit in better with your pre-conceived ideas of what is musical are 'better' players.
Over my 12 years or so of listening to and attempting to play Irish traditional music, I have begun to acquire some level of understanding of it, to feel the rhythm of the music, to know something of its history and development and how that relates to the way it is played today, to recognize the outside influences, where they occur, to 'get inside the heads' of traditional musicians and understand how they arrive at the music they play. These are all things which, to anyone who has grown up with the music, are intuitive. I would not care to expound my ideas on these things here, as there are people far more informed and eloquent on the subject.
I don't know what yhaalhouse's true motives are - granted, his manner of expression is less than courteous and more likely to provoke personal attacks than helpful responses. Perhaps his conduct in actual sessions is the same. But I am prepared to give him the benefit of the doubt - I don't think he would have bothered posting this topic if he had not had a question to be answered, even if that question takes the form of "Is it just me, or are they all playing it wrong?"
Re: Don't FRET over the backing! Hoovers & left hands...
Strangely enough, I'm usually ever so slightly suspect of people who believe they are right and the rest of the world is wrong...even if the "world" in question is just that of Irish music.
Re: Don't FRET over the backing! Hoovers & left hands...
I have CDs by Danny Meehan,Leo Rowsome,Michael Gorman,and other names mentioned above,but curiously nothing featuring an Ukelele,which set me pondering why that is,and lead me to conclude that in 40 or so years of listening to music of every available genre I don't remember any instance where I heard something I liked played on ukelele.Perhaps someone can point me towards a masterly rendering of trad ukelele music? I'm open and fair minded and like to consider the evidence before passing sentence.(But don't mention G.Formby,yuch, makes my skin crawl)
Re: Don't FRET over the backing! Hoovers & left hands...
>But sometimes one’s suitably sparse, modal, counterpointy, rhythmically tight backing is reduced to a meaningless dirge due to the above
- one’s suitably sparse, modal, counterpointy, rhythmically tight backing -- Sorry, I've never heard "one" play like that.
> a meaningless dirge due to the above
- Yeah, that's about right - but why blame others for one's own failings?
From bio:
DISLIKES: self righteous purist pillocks
- I think one means people who can actually play Irish music, and still want it kept sounding like Irish music.
Re: Don't FRET over the backing! Hoovers & left hands...
and btw, I don't like seeing players slagged off about their ability on here, but neither am I prepared to see blatant lies perpetrated, such as one of almost zero understanding of this genre, bigging one's self up.
Re: Don't FRET over the backing! Hoovers & left hands...
D'you know? When I hear this type of uneducated dabbler use a word like "hoover" to refer to the pipes, I feel EXACTLY the same as I did when, years ago, English people used to refer to me as "Paddy" or "Mick" ... This thooleramawn is such an unfunny, insensitive, ceol-belittler that he doesn't know when he gives offence.
Re: Don't FRET over the backing! Hoovers & left hands...
Yes,I sympathize,however the world is teeming with fools and idiots,and often they try deliberately to be provocative because it brings them attention they don't deserve.Better to focus the anger and use that energy where it is most effective and productive,as a kind of tool.If what the irish author I mentioned above senses is correct,that Ireland is coming to be seen as a sort of oracle which contains values which have been lost elswhere,then the pressure is going to increase,because outsiders want to get at the inner circle.It's a bit comparable to a century or so ago,when Tibet was touted as being Shangri La,where all the great secrets were kept hidden.Whenever anything special becomes publicized it attracts hordes,and there's always a percentage of insensitive idiots who drop litter and trample the flower beds and park where it says 'no parking'.
It is indeed a difficult problem....
Re: Don't FRET over the backing! Hoovers & left hands...
No problem about dropping the matter and focusing anger, or whatever, elsewhere. But not before this joker is exposed for what he is. A mouthy wannabe-know-all who knows fvck all, and as a consequence of his ignorance, has no respect for the tradition.
I don't go along too much with this Irish Shangri La theory, by the way. It seems a bit patronising if you ask me.
Re: Don't FRET over the backing! Hoovers & left hands...
It's not my theory,KML,so please don't shoot the messenger.It was mentioned on BBC Radio 4 9am last Monday (Andrew Mar) by the Irish author of a book (Luck and the Irish) who has studied the cultural changes over the recent decades.
I found it an interesting remark.I happen to live in a so called 'beauty spot' in Wales,with a public footpath nearby that is shown in the tourist guides sold in international airports.Sometimes i get into conversations with backpackers and hikers from around the world.I find it quite mind-boggling,the way folks project their own fantasies onto other people and places.'Reality' just doesn't come into it.People go on quests to find the romance that they lack in their daily lives.Some people imagine the Promised Land is going to be found at a temporal location,i.e.when they die and go to heaven.Others imagine a geographical location,'the exotic Orient' or London,'where the streets are paved with gold'.
It's always somewhere else,in a mythic imaginary territory.
Jig mentioned marketing.Well,the ad agencies and tourist boards worldwide are the experts on this stuff,they sell the image,not the reality.
Re: Don't FRET over the backing! Hoovers & left hands...
Perhaps it ties in with the ' new age' and that hippy trippy 'celtic' music?
You know, crystals and synthesizers.
I dunno, i cant say i ever heard the idea before and to be honest it scares me a little! Still, you cant hold back 'progress'!
Re: Don't FRET over the backing! Hoovers & left hands...
Fair enough, you are entitled to your opinion, but don't expect others to agree. Its not 'just' music we are discussing, it is respect. Respect for traditions, respect for others, respect for established sessions, respect for people who have been doing this for their whole lives, and ultimately respect for ourselves.
For you it may well be 'just music' but to others it means far far more. Dont dis that because you see it differently.
I dont know Yhaal house, or any of these folk, or what he does that has so upset them, though i can see what he has said here . But thats besides the point, whatever he has been up to HAS upset them and it would be a good idea to apologies and try to make amends. Respect is a big word, not to be taken lightly. Lack of it can land people in serious trouble.
Re: Don't FRET over the backing! Hoovers & left hands...
Yeah, Ok wolf, I see what you mean.
Blue, if you mean the bit about Irish Shangri La, we're only having a wee conversation online. If you mean about the hairy eegit, that's different. His presence in a session would put you off enjoying the music.
Re: Don't FRET over the backing! Hoovers & left hands...
I think there is a serious issue here.If you have something you value,e.g. a great cathedral,or Stonehenge,or the habitat of a rare and endangered species,like tigers,what should you do to protect it from possibly well-intentioned but ignorant visitors,and from people who are just plain stupid vandals,and from the wear and tear of millions who are sincere pilgrims?
Irish trad music is widely recognized as one of the most remarkable cultural resources on the planet.People who value it want to protect it.The more well known it becomes,the harder that job gets.It's easy enough to sell fakes to the naive.It's like all the olde worlde pubs where the ancient oak beams are actually made from fibre glass and resin.
There is a difference between the authentic genuine article and those who try exploit the tradition for their own advantage.
yhaalhous says in his bio that he cherry picks what he wants from all the religious traditions.How foolish is that? It's like going to the British Library,tearing a few pages from some famous books,and stapling them together.You don't get a coherent philosophy,you just get fragments without the context that gives them their meaning.
Re: Don't FRET over the backing! Hoovers & left hands...
Jig,this slogan 'you can't stop progress' is just a propaganda,a cliche,used by the kind of people who want to bulldoze Tara to make a motorway (and a lot of money).'Progress' implies moving towards something good,something better.But what happens is just 'change',and whether that change is for the better or for the worse depends upon your point of view.
Re: Don't FRET over the backing! Hoovers & left hands...
To Mickey Finn----
Sir, you are a gifted writer. Your style is
reminiscent of Stud's Terkel--
(a Yankee writer who wrote of the urban
scene in America during the great depression.)
Thanks for sharing those precious memories.
I too, would buy your book.
sincerely,
Chris Hauke
Re: Don't FRET over the backing! Hoovers & left hands...
Thanks Mickey,
I've overlooked this thread because of it's title, "hoovers?" but I've just read it all and concur its relevance.
Respect is definitely the issue. Anyone who is does not respect the music will listen to a D drone to an Emin tune and come to the simple conclusion that it's "wrong". But what a great sound ... a D drone to an Emin tune.
Anyway, I don't stay in "the" London (I like that) but I implore you Londoners to get shot of this geezer sharp. It won't be hard,
Re: Don't FRET over the backing! Hoovers & left hands...
And I thought some of those religions were bad with their shunning! Maybe yhaalhouse said some less than respectful words, and maybe his real-life behaviour has bothered you guys, but isn't this just a wee bit extreme?
hauke - i'm glad you mentioned Studs Terkel there as he is indeed a lovely writer and broadcaster.
and Micky's style is indeed very readable and i would welcome more posts from mr. Finn although he may be taking the view that less,as they say,is more.
grego and Bob himself - i note your tolerance is practised from safe places an ocean away,lol...
btw,that last was meant in a smiley emoticon way which i still can't bring myself to do.
as for the original post,chance would be a fine thing indeed-pipers in sessions in south east london are as rare as charity.
Re: Don't FRET over the backing! Hoovers & left hands...
yhaalhouse.... you know years ago I used to think similarly to you do but then I started really listening to Irish music without plucked string or piano accompaniment, in other words solo pipers, fiddlers, and duets with these instruments and accordions or concertinas.
From this I realised that good Uilleann Pipe drone and regulator accompaniment is definitive Irish music accompaniment, I used to think it was a bit weird and 'wrong' but the more I listened the more I realised it was just right and now I incorporate these kinds of piping harmonies into my backing. Many accordionists base their backing on similar principals, (although I will grant you that some bad accordionists just hit random left-hand notes!). The D drone over E Dorian works for many reasons, one being most of these tunes have a lot of D notes so the drone gives it a tension and resolution, just in an opposite way to what would happen in classical or pop harmony. You can't really approach trad with harmonic ideas founded on jazz, pop or classical. Sure some jazzy and classical things might work on certain tunes but contrary to popular belief Irish music has developed its own harmonic principals which are pretty much based on UIlleann pipe accompaniment.
One of the biggies here is in "A dorian/minor" type tunes an open D9 chord emulates what Uilleann Pipers often have going on with the combinations of the drone and regulators. This is something Donal Lunny and Michael O'Domhnaill incorporated into their backing in the Bothy Band. If you're not used to the music you'll think this sounds wrong and that an A minor chord should be used instead.
Irish music isn't all sweet and sugary, there is a lot of unresolved tension in many of the tunes, particularly the modal ones and so if you're going to accompany them it's much better to highlight the dissonances than to try and cover over them with some 'lovely chords'. I don't think enough backers have listened to what good pipers, accordionsists, concertinists and even fiddlers do to bring out some sense of harmony. Listen to some of the early recorded pipers like the Doran's, Liam Walsh and Leo Rowsome and you'll hear a lot of strange harmonic ideas which include dissonances and suspended chords. The more you listen to them the more you'll realise they are just perfect for the music. So next time you're playing with a piper try keeping a D drone going like they do and you might discover something interesting.
As for the drone being like a hoover I think it is more like the sound of a distant lawnmower which reminds me of a summers day in the Irish countryside which in turn reminds me of Irish music
Re: Don't FRET over the backing! Hoovers & left hands...
Thanks Frisbee. That's the kind of response I was hoping someone would come up with. And in my infinite naivety, I think *maybe* YH was hoping for that as well.
Re: Don't FRET over the backing! Hoovers & left hands...
Well Jig, it’s not a case of enlightening you, I wouldn’t mind a bit of enlightenment myself.
Yer man does seem to be a bit of a clown, but I wasn’t sure if people were jumping on him because of his
details or had they hand experience (after a talk with someone else here I found out it was the latter)
You see on the face of it, it was a valid enough question (without taking sides) sometimes people are quick to
dismiss good, tight , counterpointy backing but backing from other instruments are sacrosanct. Interesting question
he had a point….again not taking sides.
Also, Interesting considering yer man has given out about the guitar himself on many occasions.
Also, Intersting that Mickey Finn has done the same.
People mean different things when they say things like “purists”, “bad backing” etc
I’d like to know for example when Mickey Finn gives out out about modern rubbish – does that include Alec Finn, Bothy Band, Planxty.
Not saying his point is less valid, just that I’d be clearer as to what he means exactly….same with yhaal.
Anyway…I since found out some info that made me not want to bother responding…but there ya are.
Don't FRET over the backing! Hoovers & left hands...
Don't FRET over the backing! Hoovers & left hands...
One often reads about bad backing when it is a six string devil player (or other fretted chordy thing operative) systematically strumming scheit.
What is moaned about less often is the sometimes dreadful tuneless backing provided by the left hands of box players and/ or the inappropriate “hoover” pitch selection of the pipes players?
Now, I know that generally those instruments are playing “the actual tune” (which, indeed is the whole point of this music) and but are they never criticized for sounding less than fab in the accompaniment department? Is it to do with the blind faith-like perceived trad credentials of these instruments? i.e. “they can do no wrong but six string devils, well they’re modern interlopers, innit?”
But sometimes one’s suitably sparse, modal, counterpointy, rhythmically tight backing is reduced to a meaningless dirge due to the above.
Steady now!!!
# Posted on November 9th 2007 by yhaalhouse
Re: Don't FRET over the backing! Hoovers & left hands...
Bring it on - this could be good.
In defence of pipers I once flatpicked a tune at a session in New Zealand where a piper did awesome accompaniment on the regulators. That was a great example of role reversal.
# Posted on November 9th 2007 by Donough
Re: Don't FRET over the backing! Hoovers & left hands...
whhh (drawing breath inwards, a la heating engineer)
# Posted on November 9th 2007 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: Don't FRET over the backing! Hoovers & left hands...
(au heating engineer, if it's a man)
# Posted on November 9th 2007 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: Don't FRET over the backing! Hoovers & left hands...
Yhaalhouse - are you talking about *out of tune* drones or just a drone note that you perceive as not fitting the mode of the tune, from a chordal point of view (e.g. a D drone under a tune in E dorian)?
# Posted on November 9th 2007 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: Don't FRET over the backing! Hoovers & left hands...
Out of tune may add to the whimsy and charm!
I mainly refer to drones that are a curious selection (indeed e.g. as a D under an E dorian).
# Posted on November 9th 2007 by yhaalhouse
Re: Don't FRET over the backing! Hoovers & left hands...
Prick.
# Posted on November 9th 2007 by Rudall the time
Re: Don't FRET over the backing! Hoovers & left hands...
And "bonjour!" to you Sir!
# Posted on November 9th 2007 by yhaalhouse
Re: Don't FRET over the backing! Hoovers & left hands...
Some pipers will turn their drones off for certain tunes. The drone note could not really be called a 'selection', since uilleann pipes (unlike modern Northumbrian pipes) only have one drone note available - that is to say, one note of the scale in three octaves. But I actually find that the drones can reveal certain aspects of a tune which are not otherwise obvious. Yes, it is limiting to the backer (But aren't limitations are what a musical genre is all about? If there were none, this music might sound like Delius or Destiny's Child), but it has interesting harmonic implications and can lead you top places you would not necessarily have arrived at though 'classical' harmony. For example, in a tune in A dorian, the obvious chord choices would probably be A minor and G, with perhaps an occasional D - but the tune would 'want' to resolve onto A minor. Enter the drone and suddenly the A minor chord doesn't work anymore because there's a D under it - you can use it, but it won't feel like a resolution. The D drone makes you want to play a D chord more. But the C natural in the melody implies a 7th chord (even if you don't play one), which makes you want to resolve onto G. So the tune is then in G. Except it's not really. So it never quite resolves. And that's beautiful - to me, anyway. There are many more possiblities with other non-D modes.
Maybe I'm just a hapless victim of brainwashing.
I'm not ready to comment on accordion basses yet. But I think I know which box player you have in mind, Yh.
# Posted on November 9th 2007 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: Don't FRET over the backing! Hoovers & left hands...
Whilst on the subject of backing…
We all know that a bunch of (apparently random) chord bashers is not in the spirit of ITM and can spoil a set’s delectable rocking groove. Different backers may well know the tune (an absolute for “correct” backing) but all may have different concept of an implied harmony for any one tune. That is unless someone arranges (dictates) what harmonies are going to be used and they stick to it, but that is not what sessions are about n’est que pas? Additionally, individual detailed rhythmic understanding of any tune may differ. (This is also applicable to Bodhran players and percussionists generally of course!) This may all lead to the nasty pan-diatonic arrhythmic melee that is so often referred to here on this forum.
The answer may be for just one backer to back at a time. If another backer turns up, I often stop backing and let them get on with it. Or see what their chord choices and groove are and quietly mimic it the second time round. Doesn’t account for how you deal with lateral backing choices of boxes and pipes players though!!!
Oh and HAPPY DIWALI!
# Posted on November 9th 2007 by yhaalhouse
Re: Don't FRET over the backing! Hoovers & left hands...
Fascinating! Thanks to an utter dearth of pipers here in the cultural wasteland of Florida, this is not an issue I have to deal with to much. I can relate a little about these here parts, I suppose, if it helps.
I often deliver a glancing blow to the octave string on certain beat notes in the tune for emphasis as an ornament, though it's certainly not droning as it lasts for only as long as the open string octave can resonate, i.e., before I have to use the string again to play a different note. It's often nifty wih those A minor tunes that go back to G on he B part, for example, or a tune in G with a key "beat" notes with the G on the D string while doubling the open low G for emphasis. Not droning, just a little "oomph" on the rhythm. It's kinda nifty. No one has struck me or hollered yet, so I think they like it...
I notice the nifty box players I play with are doing something over there in the accompanying note department while they are also playing the tune. I can't tell you exactly, but what I can say is that it does not alter the natural chords of the tune, it follows with them and they seem to do a lovely job, whatever the heck it is they are doing there. (HA!)
...and I suppose most pertantly to your discussion, the backers ain't bitching about the fiddler or box player funking them up, so alls all that ends well. I can see where it may throw one off though with the limitations in droning as NameChanges pointed out. Fascinating! (X2!)
# Posted on November 9th 2007 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Don't FRET over the backing! Hoovers & left hands...
'...deal with TOO much...'
# Posted on November 9th 2007 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Don't FRET over the backing! Hoovers & left hands...
>>But sometimes one’s suitably sparse, modal, counterpointy, rhythmically tight backing is reduced to a meaningless dirge due to the above<<
OK well lets start at stage one. counterpoint is, as far as i am aware a western art music concept best left there, the harmony in trad generally being confined to I, III, and IV. with Possible extensions being implied from the drones.
I have played with numerous pipers and box players and never have had a problem.
It is my contention that you are maybe imposing your concepts of ITM on the real thing, thus to you it may sound bad.
I see people playing this counterpointy style a lot. Im not sure where they get it from. Do you know? Where did you get it from ?
To my mind the job of the guitar is not to add harmonic movement, but to support the tune and players by adding the warmth and cohesion , the glue in the mix perhaps.
THe pipes and box are most likely playing the right chords in the right place.
They say it takes 7 tears to play the chanter, 7 with the drones and 7 more for the regulators.21 yrs to become a full piper. Perhaps if you are talking about an individual piper then they have progressed to early to a full set?
# Posted on November 9th 2007 by piobagusfidil
Re: Don't FRET over the backing! Hoovers & left hands...
So Jig, how do you feel about Leo Rowsome? Is that "counterpointy" piping?
I think it might be better to say "the harmony in trad music tends to be I, IV, and V, unless it's modal, where people use bVII", but I get your point.
yhaalhouse, can't backers come up with the same sort of groupthink that tune people do? I mean, chords are easy enough to hear/read from people's hands... I play melody a lot more often than I back, but when I do, I just pick a guitarist and do what they do. If I do that long enough, a give-and-take develops with chord choices... just a third path here...
# Posted on November 9th 2007 by reenactor
Re: Don't FRET over the backing! Hoovers & left hands...
Ok i didnt mean chords 1,3 and 5 but the notes of the chords.
>> In music, counterpoint is the relationship between two or more voices that are independent in contour and rhythm, and interdependent in harmony. <<
I think Leo Rowsome is great, but not counterpoint. Check out JS Bach for counter point.
I think yhallhouse is referring to chordal accompaniment that cant be visually recognized,like the left hand of the box or regulators on the pipes.
I automatically follow another backer unless they dont have a clue in which case they had better follow me!
# Posted on November 9th 2007 by piobagusfidil
Re: Don't FRET over the backing! Hoovers & left hands...
hmm, I've never heard the 21 years thing stated quite like that. I always heard "7 years of listening, 7 years of practice, and 7 years of playing..."
One of the pipers I play with gets glared at by some people pretty much whenever he touches the regulators, unless he's playing solo.. They're difficult to get in tune, and then when you're playing in a session environment, the chord choice often clashes with whatever the bouzouki or guitar players might have in mind.
And SWFL, you should maybe revel in the "utter dearth" you have down there... I play in sessions occasionally with 3 pipers... the only thing worse might be 3 banjos!
Pete
# Posted on November 9th 2007 by Reverend
Re: Don't FRET over the backing! Hoovers & left hands...
Yes, yes!
Enough pipers already!
But how often do box players get the basses/ left hand/ chords wrong?
How do they learn/ know what to choose?
# Posted on November 9th 2007 by yhaalhouse
Re: Don't FRET over the backing! Hoovers & left hands...
you're talking out of your hole yhaalhouse, shut up!!!! has anyone got the link to the yhaalhouse is an arsehole discussion that was posted up a few months back.??? if deleted bring it back.......
# Posted on November 9th 2007 by mise
Re: Don't FRET over the backing! Hoovers & left hands...
Three banjos sounds pretty cool to me Rev. Pete! I wouldn't mind fiddlin' along with that.
Wait...three banjos, did you say?
http://comhaltas.ie/music/detail/comhaltaslive_230_1_session_with_mick_oconnor_and_oliver_divinney/
# Posted on November 9th 2007 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Don't FRET over the backing! Hoovers & left hands...
Er...ah, four banjos there. Hey, what's one more banjo between friends? [wink]
# Posted on November 9th 2007 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Don't FRET over the backing! Hoovers & left hands...
Jig,
You know, I think I totally misread your post. Damn it coffee, work faster! You weren't referring to "counterpointy" pipe playing at all, or whatever I thought I was reading.
*grins* I had to take 16th-20th C counterpoint for my Uni training, so I'm on it .
It *is* harder to coordinate backing when you can't see someone's hands so much, esp. in a noisy bar.
# Posted on November 9th 2007 by reenactor
Re: Don't FRET over the backing! Hoovers & left hands...
>>How do they learn/ know what to choose?<<
ITs a simple matter, as in ways is backing trad,Learn the tunes, learn or figure out the chord pattern. Play lots .
Having the melody in your head will be of immense value in this.
Better yet have it on an instrument.
Dont knock 3 chords, there is an incredible amount of combinations and patterns to be had from even 2 chords.
After all a lot of the tunes only have 9 to 13 notes!
Its what you make of them that matters.
# Posted on November 9th 2007 by piobagusfidil
Re: Don't FRET over the backing! Hoovers & left hands...
Just reread my first post. Guilty as charged.
I meant I, III and V not I III and IV. sorry for any confusion.
# Posted on November 9th 2007 by piobagusfidil
Re: Don't FRET over the backing! Hoovers & left hands...
So let me get this straight yallhouse, you are right (and in a hip, cool, modal, counterpoint manner no less), playing along with your bouzouki or ukelele (I have never seen a user profile with so many words that said so little) and everyone else, (even with instruments that have been part of the Irish tradition for far longer than yours) is wrong.
Some people accompany well, and some people don't, regardless of the instrument. But within the realm of good accompaniment, there are many ways to approach each tune, which (if you opened your mind a little) you might incorporate into your own playing, and instead of criticizing the contributions of others, you might learn new ways to contribute to those tunes yourself.
# Posted on November 9th 2007 by AlBrown
Re: Don't FRET over the backing! Hoovers & left hands...
"you're talking out of your hole yhaalhouse, shut up!!!! has anyone got the link to the yhaalhouse is an arsehole discussion......"
"So let me get this straight yallhouse, you are right....."
I don't know the history behind this but , somewhere amid the tangle of similes and metaphors in yhaalhouse's initial post is a valid question, I think.
# Posted on November 9th 2007 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: Don't FRET over the backing! Hoovers & left hands...
BTW, a well-tuned Hoover (as opposed to a Henry or a Hotpoint) makes a great backing instrument.
# Posted on November 9th 2007 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: Don't FRET over the backing! Hoovers & left hands...
once it starts at the right point of a tune ,put in the wrong place it can throw things way off
# Posted on November 9th 2007 by Saint
Re: Don't FRET over the backing! Hoovers & left hands...
A Hoover? I prefer a little Dust Devil myself. It's battery powered for easy travel, no cords!
# Posted on November 9th 2007 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Don't FRET over the backing! Hoovers & left hands...
...or chords, for that matter!
# Posted on November 9th 2007 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Don't FRET over the backing! Hoovers & left hands...
Good link, SWFL. I was drooling over the 2 Paragons being played in there...
Kind of reminds me of a set we did in a St. Pats concert last year that we called the "banjo bullies". 6 banjos and a "neckless banjo" (bodhran). We did it just for fun, but the crowd seemed to enjoy it... Thank god there weren't any box players or pipers in that set (just to keep on topic here)
Pete
# Posted on November 9th 2007 by Reverend
Re: Don't FRET over the backing! Hoovers & left hands...
St Pats. in Ireland is a detention centre for youths.don't ask me how I know.
# Posted on November 9th 2007 by Saint
Re: Don't FRET over the backing! Hoovers & left hands...
So Saint... just how is it that you know about St. Pats... oh wait... never mind
Pete
# Posted on November 9th 2007 by Reverend
Re: Don't FRET over the backing! Hoovers & left hands...
And other nights when one or two would stop by, late at night or in the wee hours. The smell of drink and the rough laughter and fiddles stashed under heavy raincoats. And my granny would rouse herself from her bed and put the kettle and the griddle on and soon there'd be the smell of bread baking to add to the odours of beer and whisky, wet coats and damp boots (all now, steaming by the fire which my granda had poked and stoked back into full-blooded life). And then, the tunes ... savage! I can mind being, oh about 14 or so, and long since in bed when my da woke me up. "There's a few fellas have turned up for a bit of sport. Do you want to wake up and sit in with us?" And that was my coming of age. Sitting in our front room, playing tunes with the local musicians. And, no-one prompted me. No-one said "Wait till you hear our Mikey play!" I just found a wee pause and started out on "The Boys of The Lough". At first I was terrible nervous, but the tune started coming and by the first go round the tail, I had my eyes closed and I was lost in the tune. And on the second go-round, I heard my granda fall in behind me and we played it, I'm sure, a dozen times. Me sticking to the tune, but my granda playing around it, each time a new twist to the tune. And then we stopped and I opened my eyes. And my granda was smiling like a leek, but his oul eyes were wet. And my da winked at me and passed me a bottle of stout. And that was my coming-of-age. Playing tunes with these grown men and all of us equals while we had fiddles under our chins.
And then we move on. To London (or "the London", as my granda always called it) when I fitrst came over here, an eager young man, ready and rearing to take on life. And, as you did, I made my way to the Irish pubs around the place and the sights and sounds of those days will be forever with me. Jimmy Power had so much swagger and self-confidence. You didn't mess with Jimmy. He was the King and well knew it. But didn't boast about it. Didn't need to. And Martin Byrnes. Boy, could Byrnes play! And lovely Lucy Farr. She always seemed out of place in those rough-hewn pubs. But everyone treated her withe utmost respect. If Power was the king, then Lucy was some sort of queen.
And other things come to mind. Joe Whelan and Liam Farrell and Raymond Roland. The Rakes. Cheeseman's Dance Hall, crammed to the rafters on Saturday nights. Danny Meehan, irreverent as usual. Reg Hall - no matter where you used to go - there was Reg. And the bush telegraph that led us excitedly to this or that pub when Joe Burke was maybe visiting for a few days. One time when The Dubliners were over on a tour and as soon as the gig was over, Barney vanished and I can picture yet Mick O'Connor listening in rapture and drinking in every note.
And we move closer to the present day. Brian Rooney, John Whelan, John Bow, John Blake, John Carty. And nearer still, Mick Mulvey, Brian Kelly, Kane O'Rourke. And all of the hundreds of other great musicians around "the London".
I'll not mention any names. But only a few nights ago I found myself in one of those unassuming pubs which are great for a session and I heard two fiddlers playing, a brother and a sister, some lovely tunes. And it was one of those great moments which happen sometimes in sessions. Although all hands knew the tunes, they all stopped playing and just listened to this pair fiddling together in such tight unison you'd swear to God that they were readning each other's minds.
And that's what I've always loved about the London Irish music scene. I grew up with the music. It was part of my everyday world and yet I think I got far more tunes in London than I ever did at home (but without the home grounding, sure them tunes would have meant nothing!). And I've always thought, and said, that London is the capital city of Irish Music. (And those of my pals who've visted through the years have always thought so, too.) And no matter where I've strayed in life (and I've travelled about a fair bit), I always come back to London for a while, to soak up some that great music which the boys and girls flake out seven nights a week!
So you can poosibly well imagine how it galls me to witness the yahoo who started this particular discussion dip his toe into this great music scene and without any informed knowledge or feel for this music, begin to pontificate. This seemingly bottomless well of knowledge? A fellow who's only lately tuaken to turning up at sessions armed with (and I use the word armed intentionally) with a UKULELE.
An ceol will, of course, weather many storms, one glipe alone won't bring it to its knees. But how someone can dare to INSULT the music as this man does, by strumming a UKULELE all over the top of it, and then write in this place as if he knows anything about the music is beyond me!
Well, my challenge stands, boy! (See an earlier dsicussion here.). You can put your money where your mouth is or else you can do the decent thing and stop trying to wreck every session in London and possibly this website as well!
# Posted on November 9th 2007 by Micky Finn
Re: Don't FRET over the backing! Hoovers & left hands...
Sorry ... I'll start again.
Some very wise and sensible people have urged me to contain myself. But I can't help it. Things need to be said and I'm not going to be behind the door in saying them.
There's times I think of where this great music comes from. Its heart, its soul. I mind my granda, God rest him, taking the fiddle down from the chimney breast of an evening and raking out a blast of reels and quizzing me. "What was that middle one?" And showing me how to play it, going over phrases time and again for me to repeat and then putting the whole thing together again and playing it maybe twenty or thirty times till it got into my head. And my da would be laughing and telling my granda to aisy on, else he'll scare the music out of me. But devil the bit! Before long, my da would have his fiddle out and the three of us would be sitting there, battering out the tunes and my granda - always an old man from as long ago as I can remember - the nimblest and sweetest player of the lot of us. He could make the sprightliest reel sound sad; he had some faraway sound to his music, some heartbrokenness, that I could never get and his playing always had me hypnotised. I would have walked a hundred miles through nettles to listen to him playing and now that he's gone, God rest him, I would die a happy man just to hear him give me one of his old favourites, The Earl's Chair or The Boys Of The Lough, say, just one more time.
And other nights when one or two would stop by, late at night or in the wee hours. The smell of drink and the rough laughter and fiddles stashed under heavy raincoats. And my granny would rouse herself from her bed and put the kettle and the griddle on and soon there'd be the smell of bread baking to add to the odours of beer and whisky, wet coats and damp boots (all now, steaming by the fire which my granda had poked and stoked back into full-blooded life). And then, the tunes ... savage! I can mind being, oh about 14 or so, and long since in bed when my da woke me up. "There's a few fellas have turned up for a bit of sport. Do you want to wake up and sit in with us?" And that was my coming of age. Sitting in our front room, playing tunes with the local musicians. And, no-one prompted me. No-one said "Wait till you hear our Mikey play!" I just found a wee pause and started out on "The Boys of The Lough". At first I was terrible nervous, but the tune started coming and by the first go round the tail, I had my eyes closed and I was lost in the tune. And on the second go-round, I heard my granda fall in behind me and we played it, I'm sure, a dozen times. Me sticking to the tune, but my granda playing around it, each time a new twist to the tune. And then we stopped and I opened my eyes. And my granda was smiling like a leek, but his oul eyes were wet. And my da winked at me and passed me a bottle of stout. And that was my coming-of-age. Playing tunes with these grown men and all of us equals while we had fiddles under our chins.
And then we move on. To London (or "the London", as my granda always called it) when I fitrst came over here, an eager young man, ready and rearing to take on life. And, as you did, I made my way to the Irish pubs around the place and the sights and sounds of those days will be forever with me. Jimmy Power had so much swagger and self-confidence. You didn't mess with Jimmy. He was the King and well knew it. But didn't boast about it. Didn't need to. And Martin Byrnes. Boy, could Byrnes play! And lovely Lucy Farr. She always seemed out of place in those rough-hewn pubs. But everyone treated her withe utmost respect. If Power was the king, then Lucy was some sort of queen.
And other things come to mind. Joe Whelan and Liam Farrell and Raymond Roland. The Rakes. Cheeseman's Dance Hall, crammed to the rafters on Saturday nights. Danny Meehan, irreverent as usual. Reg Hall - no matter where you used to go - there was Reg. And the bush telegraph that led us excitedly to this or that pub when Joe Burke was maybe visiting for a few days. One time when The Dubliners were over on a tour and as soon as the gig was over, Barney vanished and I can picture yet Mick O'Connor listening in rapture and drinking in every note.
And we move closer to the present day. Brian Rooney, John Whelan, John Bow, John Blake, John Carty. And nearer still, Mick Mulvey, Brian Kelly, Kane O'Rourke. And all of the hundreds of other great musicians around "the London".
I'll not mention any names. But only a few nights ago I found myself in one of those unassuming pubs which are great for a session and I heard two fiddlers playing, a brother and a sister, some lovely tunes. And it was one of those great moments which happen sometimes in sessions. Although all hands knew the tunes, they all stopped playing and just listened to this pair fiddling together in such tight unison you'd swear to God that they were readning each other's minds.
And that's what I've always loved about the London Irish music scene. I grew up with the music. It was part of my everyday world and yet I think I got far more tunes in London than I ever did at home (but without the home grounding, sure them tunes would have meant nothing!). And I've always thought, and said, that London is the capital city of Irish Music. (And those of my pals who've visted through the years have always thought so, too.) And no matter where I've strayed in life (and I've travelled about a fair bit), I always come back to London for a while, to soak up some that great music which the boys and girls flake out seven nights a week!
So you can poosibly well imagine how it galls me to witness the yahoo who started this particular discussion dip his toe into this great music scene and without any informed knowledge or feel for this music, begin to pontificate. This seemingly bottomless well of knowledge? A fellow who's only lately tuaken to turning up at sessions armed with (and I use the word armed intentionally) with a UKULELE.
An ceol will, of course, weather many storms, one glipe alone won't bring it to its knees. But how someone can dare to INSULT the music as this man does, by strumming a UKULELE all over the top of it, and then write in this place as if he knows anything about the music is beyond me!
Well, my challenge stands, boy! You can put your money where your mouth is or else you can do the decent thing and stop trying to wreck every session in London and possibly this website as well!
# Posted on November 9th 2007 by Micky Finn
Re: Don't FRET over the backing! Hoovers & left hands...
Good on ya micky, you tell 'em. That was a great piece of writin' brought a tear to me eye .
# Posted on November 9th 2007 by piobagusfidil
Re: Don't FRET over the backing! Hoovers & left hands...
Micky, you have the Irish way with words. Let us know if you ever write a book. I'll gladly read it.
# Posted on November 9th 2007 by kennedy
Re: Don't FRET over the backing! Hoovers & left hands...
Well said Micky. Thanks for the beautiful piece of descriptive writing there.
And let it be known you are not alone in expressing condemnation of this balloon who started this thread, who has no idea about what this music is about, who thinks he can come on here and have a wee cockney larff and call the drones of the pipes a hoover and so on. Who thinks he has somehow earned the right to wind people up. Who has fvcked up more session than just the ones in your end of town.
There are several people, near enough all the sessioneers I've met with even an inkling of knowledge of the music, who've had the misfortune to encounter the bollix, detest him and his pathetic attempts at trying to join in on the craic. And will it make any difference? Probably not - it seems he has a hide as thick as a rhinoceros's.
# Posted on November 9th 2007 by Rudall the time
Re: Don't FRET over the backing! Hoovers & left hands...
I think people are misunderstanding yhaalhouse's points.....NamesChanges has a point.
# Posted on November 9th 2007 by BegF
Re: Don't FRET over the backing! Hoovers & left hands...
So enlighten us.... that point is?....
# Posted on November 10th 2007 by piobagusfidil
Re: Don't FRET over the backing! Hoovers & left hands...
Yhaalhouse may have a valid point, but the fact that he treats the music with so damned little respect, both in person and on this website, invalidates his arguments.
I've been thinking about the stuff I wrote last night and I'd just like to remind people of the tremendous dignity that the generation of players from the 60s and 70s possessed. When I first came to London, the English weren't as liberal as they now are and many Irish people felt not a little intimidated by the covert and overt hostility that we experienced. People like Jimmy Power and his like carried themselves proudly and with a great sense of pride and dignity. I'm sure I wasn't the only one to come away from music sessions with a greater sense of pride in myself and in my fellow Irishmen (and those English people such as Reg Hall who understood us and our music).
Hence the coarse indignity, abrasiveness disguised as humour and flippancy of this dicussion's starter rankles with me. American folkies have a wee saying that goes "What woudl Woody have done?". I always ask myself "What would Jimmy Power have done?" or, occasionally, "What would Willie Clancy have done?". In your man's case, I think the answer is blindingly obvious!
# Posted on November 10th 2007 by Micky Finn
Re: Don't FRET over the backing! Hoovers & left hands...
Hello Micky Finn,
You write eloquently.
A slight digression from the topic,but in response to your remarks about London a few decades ago.There was a mention on the radio by the Irish author of a book (I didn't catch the mans name,but the book titled 'Luck and the irish') that he believes that the English (and maybe other nations) feeling lost,are now seeing Ireland (and Irish people and culture),as a kind of oracle,which they are turning to for guidance as to how to live...
# Posted on November 10th 2007 by wolfbird
Re: Don't FRET over the backing! Hoovers & left hands...
Micky - I enjoyed reading your piece. Now that I live in a place without much Irish music, and without any established 'scene' at all, I realise how privileged I was when I lived in London.
As another toe-dipper into traditional music (Well, I like to think that I'm in up to my ankles - in fact, I sometimes feel as if I'm in way over my head - but you'd be the better judge of that, Micky), I feel that you and others of similar musical experience do not appreciate how certain aspects of the music are perceived by those coming to it from other musical genres.
Having myself grown up with classical and popular music as my main, with their own concepts of harmony and in-tune-ness impressed upon me, I have struggled to comprehend, for example, fiddlers' intonation (Why doesn't he play in tune?), pipers' use of drones and regulators (Why is he playing the chords the wrong way round? Why is he using a D drone on a tune that resolves on E?) and box players' chord choices (Why is he playing the same chord all the way through the tune?).
To complicate matters, there are many respected traditional musicians whose musical aesthetics *do* seem to conform more closely to the classical model - Arty McGlynn, for example, is unlikely to back a tune with the same chords as Johnny Doran would have played on his regulators (although, in the hypothetical event that McGlynn were called upon to accompany Doran, he would no doubt adjust his chord choice to tie in with Doran's, or more likely, deem chordal accompaniment inappropriate and play the tune). Similarly, Liz Carroll's playing is much closer to equal temperament than, say, that of Michael Gorman or John Kelly. Finbarr Dwyer (on the box) makes far more extensive use of his left-hand chords than, say, Johnny Connolly. So it is tempting to think that the players who fit in better with your pre-conceived ideas of what is musical are 'better' players.
Over my 12 years or so of listening to and attempting to play Irish traditional music, I have begun to acquire some level of understanding of it, to feel the rhythm of the music, to know something of its history and development and how that relates to the way it is played today, to recognize the outside influences, where they occur, to 'get inside the heads' of traditional musicians and understand how they arrive at the music they play. These are all things which, to anyone who has grown up with the music, are intuitive. I would not care to expound my ideas on these things here, as there are people far more informed and eloquent on the subject.
I don't know what yhaalhouse's true motives are - granted, his manner of expression is less than courteous and more likely to provoke personal attacks than helpful responses. Perhaps his conduct in actual sessions is the same. But I am prepared to give him the benefit of the doubt - I don't think he would have bothered posting this topic if he had not had a question to be answered, even if that question takes the form of "Is it just me, or are they all playing it wrong?"
# Posted on November 10th 2007 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: Don't FRET over the backing! Hoovers & left hands...
Well i think the answer to that one is clear!
# Posted on November 10th 2007 by piobagusfidil
Re: Don't FRET over the backing! Hoovers & left hands...
Strangely enough, I'm usually ever so slightly suspect of people who believe they are right and the rest of the world is wrong...even if the "world" in question is just that of Irish music.
# Posted on November 10th 2007 by Rudall the time
Re: Don't FRET over the backing! Hoovers & left hands...
I have CDs by Danny Meehan,Leo Rowsome,Michael Gorman,and other names mentioned above,but curiously nothing featuring an Ukelele,which set me pondering why that is,and lead me to conclude that in 40 or so years of listening to music of every available genre I don't remember any instance where I heard something I liked played on ukelele.Perhaps someone can point me towards a masterly rendering of trad ukelele music? I'm open and fair minded and like to consider the evidence before passing sentence.(But don't mention G.Formby,yuch, makes my skin crawl)
# Posted on November 11th 2007 by wolfbird
Re: Don't FRET over the backing! Hoovers & left hands...
>But sometimes one’s suitably sparse, modal, counterpointy, rhythmically tight backing is reduced to a meaningless dirge due to the above
- one’s suitably sparse, modal, counterpointy, rhythmically tight backing -- Sorry, I've never heard "one" play like that.
> a meaningless dirge due to the above
- Yeah, that's about right - but why blame others for one's own failings?
From bio:
DISLIKES: self righteous purist pillocks
- I think one means people who can actually play Irish music, and still want it kept sounding like Irish music.
# Posted on November 11th 2007 by Rudall the time
Re: Don't FRET over the backing! Hoovers & left hands...
and btw, I don't like seeing players slagged off about their ability on here, but neither am I prepared to see blatant lies perpetrated, such as one of almost zero understanding of this genre, bigging one's self up.
# Posted on November 11th 2007 by Rudall the time
Re: Don't FRET over the backing! Hoovers & left hands...
D'you know? When I hear this type of uneducated dabbler use a word like "hoover" to refer to the pipes, I feel EXACTLY the same as I did when, years ago, English people used to refer to me as "Paddy" or "Mick" ... This thooleramawn is such an unfunny, insensitive, ceol-belittler that he doesn't know when he gives offence.
# Posted on November 11th 2007 by Micky Finn
Re: Don't FRET over the backing! Hoovers & left hands...
Yes,I sympathize,however the world is teeming with fools and idiots,and often they try deliberately to be provocative because it brings them attention they don't deserve.Better to focus the anger and use that energy where it is most effective and productive,as a kind of tool.If what the irish author I mentioned above senses is correct,that Ireland is coming to be seen as a sort of oracle which contains values which have been lost elswhere,then the pressure is going to increase,because outsiders want to get at the inner circle.It's a bit comparable to a century or so ago,when Tibet was touted as being Shangri La,where all the great secrets were kept hidden.Whenever anything special becomes publicized it attracts hordes,and there's always a percentage of insensitive idiots who drop litter and trample the flower beds and park where it says 'no parking'.
It is indeed a difficult problem....
# Posted on November 11th 2007 by wolfbird
Re: Don't FRET over the backing! Hoovers & left hands...
well lets market it then! oops.....
# Posted on November 11th 2007 by piobagusfidil
Re: Don't FRET over the backing! Hoovers & left hands...
Thats an easy one; by those people who see Ireland as a sort of oracle which contains values which have been lost elswhere.
# Posted on November 11th 2007 by piobagusfidil
Re: Don't FRET over the backing! Hoovers & left hands...
No problem about dropping the matter and focusing anger, or whatever, elsewhere. But not before this joker is exposed for what he is. A mouthy wannabe-know-all who knows fvck all, and as a consequence of his ignorance, has no respect for the tradition.
I don't go along too much with this Irish Shangri La theory, by the way. It seems a bit patronising if you ask me.
# Posted on November 11th 2007 by Rudall the time
Re: Don't FRET over the backing! Hoovers & left hands...
It's not my theory,KML,so please don't shoot the messenger.It was mentioned on BBC Radio 4 9am last Monday (Andrew Mar) by the Irish author of a book (Luck and the Irish) who has studied the cultural changes over the recent decades.
I found it an interesting remark.I happen to live in a so called 'beauty spot' in Wales,with a public footpath nearby that is shown in the tourist guides sold in international airports.Sometimes i get into conversations with backpackers and hikers from around the world.I find it quite mind-boggling,the way folks project their own fantasies onto other people and places.'Reality' just doesn't come into it.People go on quests to find the romance that they lack in their daily lives.Some people imagine the Promised Land is going to be found at a temporal location,i.e.when they die and go to heaven.Others imagine a geographical location,'the exotic Orient' or London,'where the streets are paved with gold'.
It's always somewhere else,in a mythic imaginary territory.
Jig mentioned marketing.Well,the ad agencies and tourist boards worldwide are the experts on this stuff,they sell the image,not the reality.
# Posted on November 11th 2007 by wolfbird
Re: Don't FRET over the backing! Hoovers & left hands...
Perhaps it ties in with the ' new age' and that hippy trippy 'celtic' music?
You know, crystals and synthesizers.
I dunno, i cant say i ever heard the idea before and to be honest it scares me a little! Still, you cant hold back 'progress'!
# Posted on November 11th 2007 by piobagusfidil
Re: Don't FRET over the backing! Hoovers & left hands...
I think people on this forum seem to take things far too seriously as opposed to actually enjying music. *Dishes out chill pills*
# Posted on November 11th 2007 by TheBlueBandana
Re: Don't FRET over the backing! Hoovers & left hands...
Fair enough, you are entitled to your opinion, but don't expect others to agree. Its not 'just' music we are discussing, it is respect. Respect for traditions, respect for others, respect for established sessions, respect for people who have been doing this for their whole lives, and ultimately respect for ourselves.
For you it may well be 'just music' but to others it means far far more. Dont dis that because you see it differently.
I dont know Yhaal house, or any of these folk, or what he does that has so upset them, though i can see what he has said here . But thats besides the point, whatever he has been up to HAS upset them and it would be a good idea to apologies and try to make amends. Respect is a big word, not to be taken lightly. Lack of it can land people in serious trouble.
# Posted on November 11th 2007 by piobagusfidil
Re: Don't FRET over the backing! Hoovers & left hands...
Yeah, Ok wolf, I see what you mean.
Blue, if you mean the bit about Irish Shangri La, we're only having a wee conversation online. If you mean about the hairy eegit, that's different. His presence in a session would put you off enjoying the music.
# Posted on November 11th 2007 by Rudall the time
Re: Don't FRET over the backing! Hoovers & left hands...
I think there is a serious issue here.If you have something you value,e.g. a great cathedral,or Stonehenge,or the habitat of a rare and endangered species,like tigers,what should you do to protect it from possibly well-intentioned but ignorant visitors,and from people who are just plain stupid vandals,and from the wear and tear of millions who are sincere pilgrims?
Irish trad music is widely recognized as one of the most remarkable cultural resources on the planet.People who value it want to protect it.The more well known it becomes,the harder that job gets.It's easy enough to sell fakes to the naive.It's like all the olde worlde pubs where the ancient oak beams are actually made from fibre glass and resin.
There is a difference between the authentic genuine article and those who try exploit the tradition for their own advantage.
yhaalhous says in his bio that he cherry picks what he wants from all the religious traditions.How foolish is that? It's like going to the British Library,tearing a few pages from some famous books,and stapling them together.You don't get a coherent philosophy,you just get fragments without the context that gives them their meaning.
# Posted on November 11th 2007 by wolfbird
Re: Don't FRET over the backing! Hoovers & left hands...
Jig,this slogan 'you can't stop progress' is just a propaganda,a cliche,used by the kind of people who want to bulldoze Tara to make a motorway (and a lot of money).'Progress' implies moving towards something good,something better.But what happens is just 'change',and whether that change is for the better or for the worse depends upon your point of view.
# Posted on November 11th 2007 by wolfbird
Re: Don't FRET over the backing! Hoovers & left hands...
Couldnt agree more.
# Posted on November 11th 2007 by piobagusfidil
Re: Don't FRET over the backing! Hoovers & left hands...
To Mickey Finn----
Sir, you are a gifted writer. Your style is
reminiscent of Stud's Terkel--
(a Yankee writer who wrote of the urban
scene in America during the great depression.)
Thanks for sharing those precious memories.
I too, would buy your book.
sincerely,
Chris Hauke
# Posted on November 12th 2007 by hauke
Re: Don't FRET over the backing! Hoovers & left hands...
Thanks Mickey,
I've overlooked this thread because of it's title, "hoovers?" but I've just read it all and concur its relevance.
Respect is definitely the issue. Anyone who is does not respect the music will listen to a D drone to an Emin tune and come to the simple conclusion that it's "wrong". But what a great sound ... a D drone to an Emin tune.
Anyway, I don't stay in "the" London (I like that) but I implore you Londoners to get shot of this geezer sharp. It won't be hard,
# Posted on November 12th 2007 by ...
Re: Don't FRET over the backing! Hoovers & left hands...
And I thought some of those religions were bad with their shunning! Maybe yhaalhouse said some less than respectful words, and maybe his real-life behaviour has bothered you guys, but isn't this just a wee bit extreme?
# Posted on November 12th 2007 by grego
Re: Don't FRET over the backing! Hoovers & left hands...
I'm puzzled too, grego. It looks like there's some back story that some of us are missing.
# Posted on November 12th 2007 by Bob himself
Re: long distance...
hauke - i'm glad you mentioned Studs Terkel there as he is indeed a lovely writer and broadcaster.
and Micky's style is indeed very readable and i would welcome more posts from mr. Finn although he may be taking the view that less,as they say,is more.
grego and Bob himself - i note your tolerance is practised from safe places an ocean away,lol...
btw,that last was meant in a smiley emoticon way which i still can't bring myself to do.
as for the original post,chance would be a fine thing indeed-pipers in sessions in south east london are as rare as charity.
i dream of listening to drones of whatever pitch.
luxury,lad,luxury!
# Posted on November 12th 2007 by biggus dave
Re: Don't FRET over the backing! Hoovers & left hands...
Its actually rather amusing in a way, the uke player is doing it right but the piper isnt!
# Posted on November 12th 2007 by piobagusfidil
Re: Don't FRET over the backing! Hoovers & left hands...
yhaalhouse.... you know years ago I used to think similarly to you do but then I started really listening to Irish music without plucked string or piano accompaniment, in other words solo pipers, fiddlers, and duets with these instruments and accordions or concertinas.
From this I realised that good Uilleann Pipe drone and regulator accompaniment is definitive Irish music accompaniment, I used to think it was a bit weird and 'wrong' but the more I listened the more I realised it was just right and now I incorporate these kinds of piping harmonies into my backing. Many accordionists base their backing on similar principals, (although I will grant you that some bad accordionists just hit random left-hand notes!). The D drone over E Dorian works for many reasons, one being most of these tunes have a lot of D notes so the drone gives it a tension and resolution, just in an opposite way to what would happen in classical or pop harmony. You can't really approach trad with harmonic ideas founded on jazz, pop or classical. Sure some jazzy and classical things might work on certain tunes but contrary to popular belief Irish music has developed its own harmonic principals which are pretty much based on UIlleann pipe accompaniment.
One of the biggies here is in "A dorian/minor" type tunes an open D9 chord emulates what Uilleann Pipers often have going on with the combinations of the drone and regulators. This is something Donal Lunny and Michael O'Domhnaill incorporated into their backing in the Bothy Band. If you're not used to the music you'll think this sounds wrong and that an A minor chord should be used instead.
Irish music isn't all sweet and sugary, there is a lot of unresolved tension in many of the tunes, particularly the modal ones and so if you're going to accompany them it's much better to highlight the dissonances than to try and cover over them with some 'lovely chords'. I don't think enough backers have listened to what good pipers, accordionsists, concertinists and even fiddlers do to bring out some sense of harmony. Listen to some of the early recorded pipers like the Doran's, Liam Walsh and Leo Rowsome and you'll hear a lot of strange harmonic ideas which include dissonances and suspended chords. The more you listen to them the more you'll realise they are just perfect for the music. So next time you're playing with a piper try keeping a D drone going like they do and you might discover something interesting.
As for the drone being like a hoover I think it is more like the sound of a distant lawnmower which reminds me of a summers day in the Irish countryside which in turn reminds me of Irish music
# Posted on November 12th 2007 by The Tune Composer
Re: Don't FRET over the backing! Hoovers & left hands...
Thanks Frisbee. That's the kind of response I was hoping someone would come up with. And in my infinite naivety, I think *maybe* YH was hoping for that as well.
# Posted on November 13th 2007 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: Don't FRET over the backing! Hoovers & left hands...
Well Jig, it’s not a case of enlightening you, I wouldn’t mind a bit of enlightenment myself.
Yer man does seem to be a bit of a clown, but I wasn’t sure if people were jumping on him because of his
details or had they hand experience (after a talk with someone else here I found out it was the latter)
You see on the face of it, it was a valid enough question (without taking sides) sometimes people are quick to
dismiss good, tight , counterpointy backing but backing from other instruments are sacrosanct. Interesting question
he had a point….again not taking sides.
Also, Interesting considering yer man has given out about the guitar himself on many occasions.
Also, Intersting that Mickey Finn has done the same.
People mean different things when they say things like “purists”, “bad backing” etc
I’d like to know for example when Mickey Finn gives out out about modern rubbish – does that include Alec Finn, Bothy Band, Planxty.
Not saying his point is less valid, just that I’d be clearer as to what he means exactly….same with yhaal.
Anyway…I since found out some info that made me not want to bother responding…but there ya are.
# Posted on November 13th 2007 by BegF