I started working on Jenny's Chickens this weekend, and after getting the A part pretty well down, the B and C parts left me quivering in a weeping mass in the corner.
Specifically, B2 bB aB^gB ... How do you hit that octave? I can't stretch, and there's no logical position for me to move to (like in the B part to Boys of Malin or something).
So I searched the site, and I was revisiting some earlier discussions (September) talked about the travails of trying to hit the hit B on a banjo (or nabjo, depending), but there wasn't a lot of "Here's are some ways that you can solve this problem".
So I'm hoping that the more experienced players here could give some tips.
How do you hit the high B, especially in the more complicated tunes (Jenny's, Musical Priest, etc.)? What are some options?
Do you ever shift every thing up a few frets and play up the neck?
Do you skip notes?
What do you do when playing a phrase isn't physically possible from your "normal approach" to the banjo?
I have pretty large hands, so I can reach the high b, even on longer scale banjos and bouzoukis.
When I first started, though, I would try to find a place in every tune that went up high to shift my hand up by a fret or two. As I got more comfortable with the instrument, I stopped doing that, but then I used to have the problem of keeping my hand pretty firmly planted, and pivot on the ball of the knuckle of my first finger. I used to get bruised there from pivoting on some of the tunes you mentioned.
My hand is much more relaxed now, and floats a bit, so that my whole hand moves up the neck a bit when I am spending a lot of time on that b. And I can jump back and forth from the b to the f sharp and g fairly easily.
I know a couple of excellent banjo players that have very small hands, and they do a lot more moving of their left hand than I do. Some of the time, they might shift into second position, but for the most part, they just move their hands a bit and keep using first position fingering (which is what I do).
So first suggestion would be to try relaxing your left hand, and let it move around the neck a bit.
My answer to Jenny's Chickens has been "just say no." Or play it on the mando instead. This is defeatist, I know, but there are 7,000+ other tunes out there for me to learn, and I don't want to keep them waiting.
I give Musical Priest a go at home once in a while (without employing any unusual techniques) and I seem to be getting better gradualy.
I pulled a muscle in my left hand playing Jenny's Chickens on mandolin. I was outside in below freezing temperatures, playing standing without a strap. Whatever you do, don't attempt this on a banjo - you'll either dislocate your shoulder or break your toes by dropping the banjo on them.
Matt Molloy on his heathery breeze record plays a lovely variation on the third part: Instead of the octave jump he plays two short B rolls back to back and then the high notes an octave lower. Give it a listen, it's one of those sublime inside out things, maybe it might inspire you to not play the banjo.
Hey Dirtyheel! How the heck are ye? You know what a diminutive troll I am, however, I feel confident on both those tunes now due to massive amounts of repitition. Now I can float off the neck with my thumb anchored behind. I spent a lot of time practicing the tunes at a very slow speed until muscle memory took over. I have no doubt you'll be busting both those bad boys out in no time. You are missed in the valley of the sun. PS - our kids play your Tar Heels this Sunday on natl TV.
Hey dirtyheel
Where is the thumb on your left hand?
I find (especially because I have small hands and fingers) that if you re-position your thumb to run underneath the centre of the neck it will twist your hand around giving you greater mobility up and down the neck allowing you to shift to various positions. (I believe that violinists call this the Paganinni principle)
As seen from behind the fretboard your thumb needs to go from:
_____o______
____________
to:
____________
_____o______
If you can root your ring finger to bar across the D and A strings on the 5th space - (A on the E, D on the A )the little finger should be able to shoot up to the 7th space (B note on the E string). After a while you can try a few tunes which have the high C too!
a b c
E - I I I I I X I I X I X
A - I I I I I X I
d
And also, try and play the B note on the A string and the B note on the E string at the same time.
b
E - I I I I I I I X I
A - I I X I
b
Practising this should hurt for a while until it becomes second nature and enables you to play the "high notes" on the E string flawlessly with the appropriate speed.
Good luck with it.
Sorry - my naff notation moved after I pressed post.
I knew a fiddler who plyed away in a band a long time ago. The band used to call the fiddler "Lightning"
Because he never hit the same note twice.
GW
"Do you skip notes?" - Most banjo players do, giving the tune an awful stamp for the banjo...Don't don't don't do that,
I rarely play that tune on banjo, but as Pete Suggests you can relax it move your whole hand. (there is a comhaltas link somewhere of Jim larkin) look at that.
Try it as a hornpipe. Go slow, and see what works for you. Speed up in time.
I hate the high pitch plonks the banjo throws out of that tune in a session...If I am playing it with someone, I'll hit the lower octave. I think it sounds way less harsh.
I love Molloy's take on that tune.
That tune, and the likes of many other simpler ones (and never comments from elitists) inspired me to give up the banjo....Momentarily....They've also inspired me to take it up again. It's all part of the challenge with how you work with it.
If you want to give up and take up the fiddle and benefit from the rolls, etc you can get from a fiddle/ flute, fair play to you.
I have done - (really really badly with flute)
But the fact that you can't really do alot of that stuff on the banjo is inspiration in itself for me. I'm enjoying Paul Brock and Enda Scahills 'Humdinger' at the moment.
OK - Its banjo and melodeon...So immediately people will hate it...I find its great fun to listen to. There's a good mixture of tunes, and nice techniques, rythms and ornamentaion. Its an era of the music that I really really love - It's almost a different genre to modern recordings, and even older flute and fiddle combinations, and while some people may scorn it, I think its a beautiful combination of instruments with real lift, comletely valid in the music.
then again - If it works for you, its right.
screw the rest....!
Do you really hate banjo Michael?
What are your opinions on it?
No, not at all. I think it can be a really great thing. It's a percussion instrument really except it can play tunes. OK so it's very limited and there's plenty of stuff you can't do on it, but in company, it's what you can add that makes a thing, not what you can merely repeat, and played well, with a decent tone and not too loud, the banjo can slice on in there with great drive and inventiveness.
A friend of mine, terrific fiddle player, plays the banjo in a learners session full of fiddles. All those not too hot fiddles make such a mush, and the banjo - because her timing is so excellent - really helps them.
That's a great way to look at it, llig. A banjo may not be able to do the rolls and such that many of the other instruments can do, since it doesn't have a constant generation of tone (like a fiddle bow, or air stream), but it can add an element to a session that can't be added by the other instruments.
The banjo can cut nicely through a muddy sound, and add a bit of definition to what's happening. I have found that in a loud environment (noisy pub, for instance), the banjo can really help define the music, not only for those who may be listening, but also for the other players.
But you're right, the timing and rhythm are of ultimate importance for a banjo.
Not sure I am ready to consign the banjo role only to the one you and Michael describe, Pete, though it certainly is a valid role. Solo artistry is also achievable, as evidenced by Angelina Carberry's solo tracks on the three albums she's recorded.
I'm not a big fan of Gerry O'Connor , but he undeniably falls into the realm of an accomplished solo artist.
Thanks to everyone for the helpful advice. That's what I was looking for: specific feedback and ideas on how to approach the especially difficult tunes. I can hit the B in "regular" tunes, like the B part of Silver Spear or Maid Behind the Bar...but there are tunes that vex me.
i spent about 30 minutes listening to Matt Molloy play Jenny's Chickens yesterday, and yes, that variation in the C part is absolutely divine. makes me want to try another instrument, but , just like Hugo, i always come back to the unique thing that banjo can add to a sesh. like Michael said, it can add something really nice to a session environment.
How DO you hit that wonderful B?
How DO you hit that wonderful B?
I started working on Jenny's Chickens this weekend, and after getting the A part pretty well down, the B and C parts left me quivering in a weeping mass in the corner.
Specifically, B2 bB aB^gB ... How do you hit that octave? I can't stretch, and there's no logical position for me to move to (like in the B part to Boys of Malin or something).
So I searched the site, and I was revisiting some earlier discussions (September) talked about the travails of trying to hit the hit B on a banjo (or nabjo, depending), but there wasn't a lot of "Here's are some ways that you can solve this problem".
So I'm hoping that the more experienced players here could give some tips.
How do you hit the high B, especially in the more complicated tunes (Jenny's, Musical Priest, etc.)? What are some options?
Do you ever shift every thing up a few frets and play up the neck?
Do you skip notes?
What do you do when playing a phrase isn't physically possible from your "normal approach" to the banjo?
Thanks in advance!
# Posted on November 5th 2007 by dirtyheel
Re: How DO you hit that wonderful B?
I have pretty large hands, so I can reach the high b, even on longer scale banjos and bouzoukis.
When I first started, though, I would try to find a place in every tune that went up high to shift my hand up by a fret or two. As I got more comfortable with the instrument, I stopped doing that, but then I used to have the problem of keeping my hand pretty firmly planted, and pivot on the ball of the knuckle of my first finger. I used to get bruised there from pivoting on some of the tunes you mentioned.
My hand is much more relaxed now, and floats a bit, so that my whole hand moves up the neck a bit when I am spending a lot of time on that b. And I can jump back and forth from the b to the f sharp and g fairly easily.
I know a couple of excellent banjo players that have very small hands, and they do a lot more moving of their left hand than I do. Some of the time, they might shift into second position, but for the most part, they just move their hands a bit and keep using first position fingering (which is what I do).
So first suggestion would be to try relaxing your left hand, and let it move around the neck a bit.
Pete
# Posted on November 5th 2007 by Reverend
Re: How DO you hit that wonderful B?
My answer to Jenny's Chickens has been "just say no." Or play it on the mando instead. This is defeatist, I know, but there are 7,000+ other tunes out there for me to learn, and I don't want to keep them waiting.
I give Musical Priest a go at home once in a while (without employing any unusual techniques) and I seem to be getting better gradualy.
# Posted on November 5th 2007 by grego
Re: How DO you hit that wonderful B?
I pulled a muscle in my left hand playing Jenny's Chickens on mandolin. I was outside in below freezing temperatures, playing standing without a strap. Whatever you do, don't attempt this on a banjo - you'll either dislocate your shoulder or break your toes by dropping the banjo on them.
# Posted on November 6th 2007 by granama
Re: How DO you hit that wonderful B?
Matt Molloy on his heathery breeze record plays a lovely variation on the third part: Instead of the octave jump he plays two short B rolls back to back and then the high notes an octave lower. Give it a listen, it's one of those sublime inside out things, maybe it might inspire you to not play the banjo.
# Posted on November 6th 2007 by llig leahcim
Re: How DO you hit that wonderful B?
http://www.banjosessions.com/aug06/index.html -you might find this useful
# Posted on November 6th 2007 by banjoian
Re: How DO you hit that wonderful B?
Michael, this is a discussion for banjo players - no cynics allowed. I'm going to defy you and give Molloy's Chickens a listen.
# Posted on November 6th 2007 by grego
Re: How DO you hit that wonderful B?
er ... why would that be defiance?
# Posted on November 6th 2007 by llig leahcim
Re: How DO you hit that wonderful B?
Hey Dirtyheel! How the heck are ye? You know what a diminutive troll I am, however, I feel confident on both those tunes now due to massive amounts of repitition. Now I can float off the neck with my thumb anchored behind. I spent a lot of time practicing the tunes at a very slow speed until muscle memory took over. I have no doubt you'll be busting both those bad boys out in no time. You are missed in the valley of the sun. PS - our kids play your Tar Heels this Sunday on natl TV.
# Posted on November 6th 2007 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: How DO you hit that wonderful B?
Hey dirtyheel
Where is the thumb on your left hand?
I find (especially because I have small hands and fingers) that if you re-position your thumb to run underneath the centre of the neck it will twist your hand around giving you greater mobility up and down the neck allowing you to shift to various positions. (I believe that violinists call this the Paganinni principle)
As seen from behind the fretboard your thumb needs to go from:
_____o______
____________
to:
____________
_____o______
If you can root your ring finger to bar across the D and A strings on the 5th space - (A on the E, D on the A )the little finger should be able to shoot up to the 7th space (B note on the E string). After a while you can try a few tunes which have the high C too!
a b c
E - I I I I I X I I X I X
A - I I I I I X I
d
And also, try and play the B note on the A string and the B note on the E string at the same time.
b
E - I I I I I I I X I
A - I I X I
b
Practising this should hurt for a while until it becomes second nature and enables you to play the "high notes" on the E string flawlessly with the appropriate speed.
Good luck with it.
# Posted on November 6th 2007 by Greenwiggle
Re: How DO you hit that wonderful B?
Sorry - my naff notation moved after I pressed post.
I knew a fiddler who plyed away in a band a long time ago. The band used to call the fiddler "Lightning"
Because he never hit the same note twice.
GW
# Posted on November 6th 2007 by Greenwiggle
Re: How DO you hit that wonderful B?
Michael - defiance because I am confident I will not be inspired to not play the banjo. Sorry.
# Posted on November 6th 2007 by grego
Re: How DO you hit that wonderful B?
Hmm, an open mind then
# Posted on November 6th 2007 by llig leahcim
Re: How DO you hit that wonderful B?
"Do you skip notes?" - Most banjo players do, giving the tune an awful stamp for the banjo...Don't don't don't do that,
I rarely play that tune on banjo, but as Pete Suggests you can relax it move your whole hand. (there is a comhaltas link somewhere of Jim larkin) look at that.
Try it as a hornpipe. Go slow, and see what works for you. Speed up in time.
I hate the high pitch plonks the banjo throws out of that tune in a session...If I am playing it with someone, I'll hit the lower octave. I think it sounds way less harsh.
I love Molloy's take on that tune.
That tune, and the likes of many other simpler ones (and never comments from elitists) inspired me to give up the banjo....Momentarily....They've also inspired me to take it up again. It's all part of the challenge with how you work with it.
If you want to give up and take up the fiddle and benefit from the rolls, etc you can get from a fiddle/ flute, fair play to you.
I have done - (really really badly with flute)
But the fact that you can't really do alot of that stuff on the banjo is inspiration in itself for me. I'm enjoying Paul Brock and Enda Scahills 'Humdinger' at the moment.
OK - Its banjo and melodeon...So immediately people will hate it...I find its great fun to listen to. There's a good mixture of tunes, and nice techniques, rythms and ornamentaion. Its an era of the music that I really really love - It's almost a different genre to modern recordings, and even older flute and fiddle combinations, and while some people may scorn it, I think its a beautiful combination of instruments with real lift, comletely valid in the music.
then again - If it works for you, its right.
screw the rest....!
Do you really hate banjo Michael?
What are your opinions on it?
# Posted on November 6th 2007 by Hugo Chavez
Re: How DO you hit that wonderful B?
No, not at all. I think it can be a really great thing. It's a percussion instrument really except it can play tunes. OK so it's very limited and there's plenty of stuff you can't do on it, but in company, it's what you can add that makes a thing, not what you can merely repeat, and played well, with a decent tone and not too loud, the banjo can slice on in there with great drive and inventiveness.
A friend of mine, terrific fiddle player, plays the banjo in a learners session full of fiddles. All those not too hot fiddles make such a mush, and the banjo - because her timing is so excellent - really helps them.
# Posted on November 6th 2007 by llig leahcim
Re: How DO you hit that wonderful B?
That's a great way to look at it, llig. A banjo may not be able to do the rolls and such that many of the other instruments can do, since it doesn't have a constant generation of tone (like a fiddle bow, or air stream), but it can add an element to a session that can't be added by the other instruments.
The banjo can cut nicely through a muddy sound, and add a bit of definition to what's happening. I have found that in a loud environment (noisy pub, for instance), the banjo can really help define the music, not only for those who may be listening, but also for the other players.
But you're right, the timing and rhythm are of ultimate importance for a banjo.
Pete
# Posted on November 6th 2007 by Reverend
Re: How DO you hit that wonderful B?
being digitally challenged myself I play these horrible tunes up the neck. They still don't sound good but better than from 1st position.
The other benefit is to develop up neck style for more ordinary tunes to get more rhythmic picking patterns.
# Posted on November 6th 2007 by millionyears_bc
Re: How DO you hit that wonderful B?
Not sure I am ready to consign the banjo role only to the one you and Michael describe, Pete, though it certainly is a valid role. Solo artistry is also achievable, as evidenced by Angelina Carberry's solo tracks on the three albums she's recorded.
I'm not a big fan of Gerry O'Connor , but he undeniably falls into the realm of an accomplished solo artist.
# Posted on November 6th 2007 by grego
Re: How DO you hit that wonderful B?
Thanks to everyone for the helpful advice. That's what I was looking for: specific feedback and ideas on how to approach the especially difficult tunes. I can hit the B in "regular" tunes, like the B part of Silver Spear or Maid Behind the Bar...but there are tunes that vex me.
i spent about 30 minutes listening to Matt Molloy play Jenny's Chickens yesterday, and yes, that variation in the C part is absolutely divine. makes me want to try another instrument, but , just like Hugo, i always come back to the unique thing that banjo can add to a sesh. like Michael said, it can add something really nice to a session environment.
cheers,
Kevin
# Posted on November 6th 2007 by dirtyheel
Re: How DO you hit that wonderful B?
Good for you then Kevin - Keep pluggin away and enjoy it.
Try other instruments by all means - you surely couldn't just listen to the banjo, you'd go insane...
Some nice albums:
http://www.thesession.org/recordings/index/search?name=angelina+carberry&search_start=0
(watch out for funny versions and keys...enjoy hop and phrasing)
http://www.thesession.org/recordings/display/548
(nice...)
Aforementioned 'Humdinger album'
Maiden Voyage is a nice album to hear a banjo in a session - though I'm not a fan of the playing at all.
This is a little techno, but its great..
http://comhaltas.ie/music/detail/comhaltaslive_222_5_donal_murphy_and_john_larkin/
Enjoy.
'Hugo'
# Posted on November 6th 2007 by Hugo Chavez
Re: How DO you hit that wonderful B?
well supposedly stretching your toes will help !
# Posted on November 8th 2007 by jig