Is Riverdance Rubbish??? Should it be posted here ?
Is Riverdance Rubbish??? Should it be posted here ?
JosephofCK was kind enough to post the Riverdance tune, or at least part of the set, but he then "ruined" (just kidding ) his brownie points in my book when he questioned the legitimacy of the song as an ITM piece / set
I believe the Riverdance Song did wonders for the ITM in general quarters and indeed I would go so far as to say almost as much as O'Riarda did and in very similar ways.
O'Riarda and his group Ceoltóirí Cualann took the “Didely Daaa” out of ITM and put some finesse into it, almost like an orchestra but with the rough and readiness of Moloney.
Doesn’t Riverdance take it a step further and put some real “Panache” into the whole thing ??? Especially the 3rd part of the set…. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i7ydWMgBBZU …. At minute 4.06 on the video or minute 5.14………….
I think it's great stuff that can be wacked out at any session and can't thank JofCK enough.
Re: Is Riverdance Rubbish??? Should it be posted here ?
This website is for session tunes. Riverdance was written for the Riverdance show. The tunes aren't session material now, were probably never meant to be, and hopefully will never be in the future. It's as simple as that, isn't it? Nothing to stop people posting them of course, but don't be surprised if weekly session-goers make comments along the lines of "this isn't a session tune". It's nothing to get your knickers in a twist about.
Re: Is Riverdance Rubbish??? Should it be posted here ?
I've never seen any of the riverdance music played at a session anywhere, and while it could be argued that it contributed to it's popularity, I can't think of any way it has enhanced the music in a permanent way. It certainly has been a big earner for a generation of dancers, and a few musicians competent at miming, and you can allways count on one or two of them turning up here to defend it.
For me it was over after the first few times I listened. All glitter, precious little substance. After the great work he did with Planxty, including "Timedance", Bill Whelan sold his soul.
Re: Is Riverdance Rubbish??? Should it be posted here ?
If you play a sound-track in your session and wave instruments around in time, there is no reason why it can't be posted here.
I was most amused by the Riverdance dvd (borrowed rather than bought - only watched once - zzzzzzz) when the sound track started up whilst the musicians were still clapping - I still haven't worked out how the dancers manage to tap whilst up in the air - any suggestions?
The dvd didn't feature anyone actually dancing in the aforementioned river - was that bit too horrific to show to children?
Re: Is Riverdance Rubbish??? Should it be posted here ?
A corollary question might need to also be discussed. At what speed does a dance tune lose its' "soul". I can hardly think of tunes I enjoy playing at 120 beats per minute, even for dancers.
108-112 is about as fast as I ever want to go, unless it's a tune I don't like and just want to get rid of it. I agree with Dow & Backer.
Re: Is Riverdance Rubbish??? Should it be posted here ?
Riverdance did for Irish culture what Mr. Holland's Opus did for public school music programs. That is, suddenly we are in the spotlight at the high cost of accuracy and mis-formed opinions. Life is all about taking the wheat with the chaff, and I am (somewhat) grateful for the publicity.
Re: Is Riverdance Rubbish??? Should it be posted here ?
I think Riverdance and everything associated with it is wonderful and is the best thing that ever happened to traditional music. Riverdance did real wonders for traditional music by making it really popular with people who previously hadn't even heard of it, so that proves how good Riverdance is. In fact, I'd go even further. Everything in Irish trad music that came before Riverdance is a load of boring, pathetic, hopeless nonsense. Anyone who likes it or plays that load of old cobblers, should be taken out and compulsorarily euthenased with an AK47. I mean, how could anyone possibly want to bother playing something that isn't massively popular? It's beyond me.
Re: Is Riverdance Rubbish??? Should it be posted here ?
Surely the test of a good old traditional piece of dance music is a strong melody line. In other words how would it sound with no backing, on a whistle for instance. I think River Dance would fail on that score.
Enigma you are well named.
I think you are asking about a set of tunes composed by Bill Whelan. Part of which was posted here; http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/7927
I briefly scanned the YouTube link so I have not taken the time to listen to the "set".
Could you just confirm that you are referring to the unnamed set & not the "song" or "Riverdance" in general.
I don't want to ruin the discussion but I would like it if you could give me that one detail. Or am I way out of the ballpark?
Cheers!
Re: Is Riverdance Rubbish??? Should it be posted here ?
Help me understand something above, please -- "sold his soul"?
How does a professional composer, asked to grind out a piece of music for a certain purpose or performance, sell his soul when he does just that, and it works? At least it was HIS and he got paid.
At least a few of the geniuses who wrote the "legitimately" ITM music we love so well died without a penny or a credit.
I hope the man makes millions off the stuff! Maybe the next great Wendy's jingle? something for Ebay? Go, Bill!
(None of this is meant to suggest that I am enamoured of Riverdance or its music, but could we maintain our grip on reality, and be a bit charitable when we disagree? )
Gripe over.
Ignore the above, like the other ravings.
Good night.
Bless you all.
Re: Is Riverdance Rubbish??? Should it be posted here ?
We play from time to time a couple of tunes from Riverdance in our session. One fast one - American Wake, and one slow one - Home and the Heartland. Never been v. keen personally on the fast one , though many seem to enjoy playing it, but I do really like the slow one, especially if there is a really good whistle player around - both tunes fit in well we all think.
(But then we also sometimes play Israeli, Eastern European and the occasional Cajun tune in our session - don't tell the ITM police...)
Bye now
Keith
Re: Is Riverdance Rubbish??? Should it be posted here ?
I fear Dow is misleading you here. If a tune is played at a session it is a session tune. It may not have been written as such, but if played at a session, it is a session tune. Sully wrote "The exile of Erin" to commemorate a pub, it is now played at sessions, so is a session tune. A good 80% of the tunes were "composed" before modern sessions began, but they are still session tunes, because they are played at sessions. Most of them were written for someones personal amusement.
So if you want to play Riverdance or the "Titanic" theme at a session, go right ahead. The very odd misguided musical snob may object, but thankfully there are not too many of that type surviving. Thanks to Riverdance.
Re: Is Riverdance Rubbish??? Should it be posted here ?
A while ago someome posted the theme tune to Super Mario Bros, I seem to remember, and also Final Fantasy. Perhaps if I play those in every session I go to from now on they will enter the tradition.
Re: Is Riverdance Rubbish??? Should it be posted here ?
On ya Dow! Riverdance has done nothing for ITM except a lot of miss guided people that think that taking a few lessons in irish dancing and picking up a bodhran counts them in as irish session players.
Re: Is Riverdance Rubbish??? Should it be posted here ?
thanks dow will try it next time although whiskey did a pretty go job last time! Thanks to late in the evening my adventures and tribulations are attaining great heights here in australia!!! I did it for Newfoundland
Re: Is Riverdance Rubbish??? Should it be posted here ?
I enjoyed the music from Riverdance from the first time that I HEARD it. I've always felt that the original music is what made the show, not the dancing. I've been trying to add the Countess Cathleen and Slip Into Spring to my repertoire ever since. I find them both to be technically very challenging pieces. I've never played them in a session but someday I will if I ever get them to session level proficiency. (Countess Cathleen is in the tune database here.) I think that the typical criticism of the show is not based upon musical criteria, but rather other
non-music related reactions to the marketing and personnel involved with the original production.
Re: Is Riverdance Rubbish??? Should it be posted here ?
Backer:
I find myself somewhat sympathetic toward llig at this moment - my post neither said nor, I think, implied anything of the kind.
What I thought I indicated was simply that being hired to write a jingle should, IMHO, not detract from the validity or appreciation of a composer's other works. He is not writing trad stuff, I admit, but I do not see the contradiction in B. Manilow writing some tunes I find most impressive, and at the same time being hired out for all those rather annoying TV advertising themes. Business is business, self-exrpession is self-expression.
Myself, I took a gig to play a Burn's Night and wound up being requested to play and sing a few tunes I would never pay for personal pleasure nor at any performance where I was given the choice of selecting my repertoire. But I was hired to.
I must suspect that, as a musician yourself, any regular paying or gratis jobs you have had in the past may have involved doing the occasional less-than-palatable "request". Much the same thing, I would judge.
In fairness, perhaps I should have emphasized PAID TO WRITE IT, as opposed to writing a piece as a form of persopnal expression. If so, I hope this clarifies my position somewhat.
Re: Is Riverdance Rubbish??? Should it be posted here ?
I'm with grego on this.
Why should you guys care?
The choral arrangements from Riverdance are especially beautiful.
I'm pretty convinced that in 20 years both session music and the music from this Broadway show will continue to be popular in different venues.
Re: Is Riverdance Rubbish??? Should it be posted here ?
I never liked Riverdance, always thought it was overblown nonsense, I recently sat down and listened to it in retrospect. Most of it has dated horribly (have you listened to the 'song' at the end, it's painful!), it is basically a broadway show that has little to do with traditional Irish music and dancing. As a Broadway show it is very slick and professional and probably great if you're into that kind of thing, I'm not, I hate Broadway shows....
The only times I've ever heard Riverdance/Bill Whelan tunes at a session are ones involving Germans! How many of you have heard the following at a session? "I'm very much liking your Irish music, can you play Riverdance?!!"
I think the trouble with Riverdance is that it was many peoples first exposure to 'Irish' music so they presume that it is authentic in some way, whereas there is very little in Riverdance that actually relates to the tradition. It is a Broadway show with influences from Eastern Europe, Ireland, Spain and other places, in that respect it is very effective and good luck to Bill Whelan for making a fortune out of it. I think he genuinely loves Irish music so I suppose he'd be heartened if in fact Riverdance was responsible for bringing the world's attention to Irish music. It may have got a lot of people into the more commercial side of trad but I wonder how many people after hearing Riverdance went on to explore Irish music in detail?
I know some people who got into Irish music through Riverdance but they can't listen to old recordings because they aren't slick enough, so if anything Riverdance has had a detrimental effect on trad in the long run because it has created a group of people who claim to like 'Irish music' whereas they only really like the commercial side of it rather than the real soul of it.
I will admit that the main theme to Riverdance is actually quite a good composition for its type but it has little to do with Irish traditional music except for the fact that it has Uilleann Pipes and some other Irish instruments. The rhythms and melodic shape in the tune make it much closer to Eastern European music, indeed it is from Andy Irvine's love of Bulgarian music that Whelan got his inspiration, still it has little to do with Bulgarian, Irish or Spanish traditional music really, it is Broadway show music plain and simple.
Re: Is Riverdance Rubbish??? Should it be posted here ?
Good stuff, frisbee.
I've had to explain to several well-meaning English friends, offering a night out at 'Riverdance' or one of its clones, that, unfortunately, all that light and agitation brings me out in leprechauns, and, anyway, 9pm is well past my bedtime.
Re: Is Riverdance Rubbish??? Should it be posted here ?
I was most interested to read the replies on this thread and also admit to some astonishment. If we call ourselves traditional musicians surely must accept we have a responsibility at 2 levels. Firstly to maintain our aural and written tradition by playing tunes (and songs?) that in some instances can date back as far as the Middle Ages. But also to acknowledge a secnd obligation that we are required to maintain and develop a tradition that will be carried for future generations.
In two hundred years what will musicians be playing to demonstarte their affinity with the music of the 21st century? At one level of course they will have music by U2 and the Pogues, but what about the rest of Irish culture? Musicians such as Chieftains, Lunasa, Solas and other have done much to keep ITM alive. But surely we aren't so closed minded to assume that time stopped for ITM the day O'Carolan died? More likely historians in the 23rd century will recall a stupendously successful demonstration of evolving Irish music occurred and that one of the key writers of that era was Bill Whelan. Now we may disagree with that (I would happen to be one of them) but nonetheless we would have to acknowledge his impact on the evolution of traditional music.
I would argue that the number of people who have see Riverdance has far excceeded the number who have been to any fleadh or indeed any session!! The tragedy of this thread isthat we should be asking why Riverdance might be seen as the prime mover and shaker of ITM in the the new milleniem. Is there more that we could be doing to make the music and the dance more accessible to the general public? Are we our own worst enemeies because of our own incestuous overprotection of "the art"?
Re: Is Riverdance Rubbish??? Should it be posted here ?
"Is there more that we could be doing to make the music and the dance more accessible to the general public? "asks Welshman.
From what I can tell the music and dance are very accessible to the general public, certainly in Ireland, the UK, the US, Germany, Japan and so on and the gneral public tends to appreciate it very much. There's no need for us to dilute it to make it more 'popular', by this I don't mean there shouldn't be room for experimentation, I love it when I hear someone take the music in a new direction, so long as it's not a commercial dumbing down of the music alá Celtic Woman
The main thing that concerns me about the Riverdance phenomenon is that it has become so definitively 'Irish music' to some people whereas it is really only slightly influenced by Irish traditional music, as I said in my previous post, it is a Broadway Show dominated by Eastern European rhythms with some Irish and Spanish influence too. In that respect it's fine, it is a perfectly valid and successful Broadway show but if in 200 years time historians see Riverdance as one of the main evolutions of Irish traditional music then the music will be dead. Of course I'm sure they won't see it that way, they will see it for what it is a big commercial show which in some way contributed to the Irish music 'boom' of the 1990's.
Bill Whelan's composition. Thanks Welshman.
There are two topics here;
1) The compositions of Mr. Whelan which can be played as tunes separate from the full arrangements & production of 'Riverdance' *
2) The 2nd topic is the spectacle of Riverdance itself.
I think on the orignal post Enigma was asking about a 'set' of tunes composed for 'Riverdance'
So . . . is it fair to ask if "the set" might stand alone & be adopted by session players ~ or not?
*As musicians this should be a basic concept for all present.
A tune - a set - no lights - no applause - no fanfare . . .
Re: Is Riverdance Rubbish??? Should it be posted here ?
Tonya, thanks for that clarification, you seem to be one of the very few who have not got all emotional about this and actually hit it on the head with what I was actually asking and suggesting.
I'm glad I started the debate though as I've come to two conclusions.
1) If this was about Rock, Elvis would have been linched by this mob already...........
2) Searching through YT on Riverdance I've come across a great piece on flute played by Michael Flatley but was actually cut from the original 1994 score.(See link above) I've just spent all day playing it on my Low D and it sounds bloody magic - Michael is a bit more than just a "Paddy Travolta"
Re: Is Riverdance Rubbish??? Should it be posted here ?
Did anyone else here that Michael Flatley is hanging up his dancing shoes to become a flutist, yes i meant to say that, not a flautist but a flutist.( and before anyone corrects me I know both word are actually in the Oxford dictionary, its just flautist is the more accpeted term these days)
It was in the papers here the other day in an interview with him.
I hope he doesnt do to Flute playing what he did to Irish Dancing. Fake wigs and loadsa make up................
Re: Is Riverdance Rubbish??? Should it be posted here ?
"Riverdance did nothing except encourage a few people to think a few dancing steps and picking up a bodhran meant you were a trad musician".
posted more or less by Tombo.
The likes of Davy Spillane, is that who you mean, Tombo?
Some of the music in Riverdance is excellent, much of it fits the "Traditional" genre, so what is the problem? I think "Halfwaythere" was right. Some people have a problem with individuals enjoying commercial success, and transpose that to the music.
Sully wrote the "Exile" in memory of the pub, but his main reason was so that he could sell more books and records. He did not say "This is a session tune". Yet it is accepted as such. So why not "Riverdance"?
Re: Is Riverdance Rubbish??? Should it be posted here ?
Lollypolly he's brilliant on the flute see him at this link with Molloy he stands his ground fair and square on the blackwood...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b5Lv1y2l3Aw
Re: Is Riverdance Rubbish??? Should it be posted here ?
nope. The poor we chappy didn't do anything anywhere near stand his ground in that clip. I'm afraid it was merely a succinct example of the man being carried. Watch how close flathead is to the mike compared wilt Molloy. Matt, with his consummate lack of ego holds back so as not to drown the man. There's at least three bits where fleathead flannels and Matt plays right through it until he catches up. Listen especially to the very last note, flathead finishes first, but you can't hear him stopping.
Re: Is Riverdance Rubbish??? Should it be posted here ?
Ahhhh.....Riverdance Bashing rears its ugly head,yet again.....So what if Riverdance isnt Trad..?? It's still Irish, and there's still some great music there...I reckon some of you Riverdance Bashers actually likle some of it....but it would'nt cool to admit that would it ??
I'm obsessed with Irish Trad and have about 300 CD's ranging from early 'pure drop' stuff all the way to Lunasa....and if it was'nt for Riverdance,I would NEVER been exposed to Irish music. I'm eternally grateful to Bill Whelan and Riverdance..
Lighten up folks,we,re not gonna out of this thing alive...........zoukboy....Irish Trad Tragic....
Re: Is Riverdance Rubbish??? Should it be posted here ?
Gill you never fail to show your class ,How you can get away with calling Michael Flatley flathead on this site.Michael Flatley is an extremely talented man .Riverdance changed so many peoples lives ,Irish dancers and musician got a chance to be professionals.Mr. Flatley has called into local sessions in Cork (his home)and played and he's a gent .Riverdance made me proud to be Irish because Its quality stuff ,Just look at the musicians that have played with riverdance over the years.
Re: Is Riverdance Rubbish??? Should it be posted here ?
BB riverdance was the reason we have so many bodhrans in sessions these days....don't you know that! also riverdance is the reason why most people play irish music, the lovely melodic tunes really are such an improvement from the traditional tunes of ireland. I am so glad that i have been informed by the masses that riverdance is great....one wonders why we have all been stumbling around in the dark. Are we going to hear next that solas and lunasa have contributed more to ITM then the real players themselves, those that haven't used ITM for their own gratification and money making, those that haven't become big heads in the scene of ITM, though play fantastic music......I wonder........
Re: Is Riverdance Rubbish??? Should it be posted here ?
nothing wrong with Flatley, he's a great dancer and he can play the flute quite well, he's no Matt Molloy but then who is?!! I don't begrudge him or Whelan or Jean Butler or anyone else involved in Riverdance their success, I just don't think it's got much to do with traditional Irish music and take issue with anyone saying it's part of the tradition.
It's an off-shoot of the tradition, it was influenced by the tradition but it's got as much to do with the tradition as The Corrs or Celtic Woman...i.e. it's a big commercial by-product. By the way am I the only one who thinks the music is a bit..... cheesey?!! The arrangements are so full of syrup its enough to put you off sugar..........
Re: Is Riverdance Rubbish??? Should it be posted here ?
I am not so sure tombo. I hold to the belief that a tradition is the handing down of legends, customs, information, music etc., from generation to generation, particularly by word of mouth or by practice. Now you purists out ther may not like it, but I still hold that in 200 years time Riverdance (just like U2) is likely to be part of that tradition. The very essence and beauty of traditional music is its innate ability to evolve.
Re: Is Riverdance Rubbish??? Should it be posted here ?
ah welshman!!! you logic is to say the least devoid of all understanding of what traditional music is all about. To even suggest that River dance, let alone U2 could have any influence on ITM is to whole heartedly insult the very underpinning of what ITM is. You cannot possible try to suggest that Riverdance can contribute anything to ITM, if you do you are certainly the most ignorant person i have come across!!! But as they all say you are entilted to your opinion.
My mind is still bogling, to think that Riverdance is going to be part of the tradition......what a load of bloody rot!!!
Re: Is Riverdance Rubbish??? Should it be posted here ?
To go on welshman, ITM in your opinion has not made it out to the greater community? I live in Australia and have no irish heritage at all, yet seem to have developed a love for the tradition as a whole and ITM is my passion. Riverdance never gave that to me, i was playing it way before the world was bopping to the egotistical carry on of michael flatfoot! i think you underestimate the power of a tradition steaped in more than the whim of some idiot that decided to compose a few tunes with some slight influence of the irish music. You forget that even through out the bloody history of the british occupying ireland the tradition survived, throughout the famine the tradition survived, and even now with all the mediocre, half arsed attempts to write "original"tunes or playing something that the ignorant masses enjoy the tradition survives with those that understand that real ITM doesn't need to reach the masses through mass produced jumped up multimedia driven shows. The tradition doesn't need riverdance, its musicians like you that need riverdance to inflate you own self importance!
Re: Is Riverdance Rubbish??? Should it be posted here ?
sorry for the tone i should have left it up to frisbee, totally on the money, no more need to be said really. Hup to all choon players, enjoy ITM for what it really is and leave the popular crap to those that like the raz ma taz! peace and love
Re: Is Riverdance Rubbish??? Should it be posted here ?
Welshman,
I don't really understand how you can say that U2 or Riverdance will one day be considered part of Irish TRADITIONAL music. Perhaps some broad classification of Irish music, okay, yes, probably, I suppose. Sure... and why not the music from the Commitments too and all that, really. But Irish traditional music?
It's not as if ITM has always been the only type of music played in Ireland, or even as if it is some sort of grand sum of all the types of music that have ever been played in Ireland. Historically there have been all sorts of different types of music played in Ireland... even very long ago. There were different types of music for different classes even. There was music arriving off the continent (which surely influenced ITM, just as a poppy sound influences some ITM today). But that doesn't mean that it *became* ITM... or that music historians would look back and say... "Irish people played that tune from such-and-such-a-place, therefore it is ITM". They would have to recognize that it is not ITM, but a tune from such-and-such-a-place.
I think there is an important distinction to be made between *music played by Irish people* and *Irish traditional music*. U2 and all that has NOTHING to do with ITM. Nothing. But yes, it is played by, created by, Irish people. It is from a different aspect of Irish society if you like, not part of a folk tradition. Riverdance is also not part of that tradition, just as songs such by stage Oirish people in the late 1800s aren't a part of the tradition today.
Re: Is Riverdance Rubbish??? Should it be posted here ?
As someone who was given the chance to travel the world and play by the phenomenon that Flatley started i have always advocated that it was a good thing for young Irish people and those of our diaspora.
I do not deny that it is not the 'purest' form of our tradition (whatever that means?) but everything needs tweaked before exposed to a mass audience.
Take Chinese food for example? I don't know what it is like elsewhere but in Ireland & England we have 'Chinese' food that people from China wouldn't give to their dog. It is full of sugar and Monosodiumglutamate to make it palatable for westerners. Don't get me wrong... i love it, but i can also accept that it needed tweaked for a foreign audience.
Riverdance is a show loved my millions of people around the world. Get over it.
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Tombo accuses me of not understanding the meaning of traditional music without offering an alternative, consequently I am left to assume that he has missed my point completely. I would also suggest that those who refer to ITM have a very narrow definition that should in fact be more akin to a description of Irish dance music. More specifically I would suggest that their definition is confined to music that largely only includes jigs, reels, polkas, mazurkas and hornpipes. In this definition anything outside of this remit is NOT traditional. Thus only some of Planxty's material is ITM while the rest is a pleasant distraction that ultimately endangers their godhead of ITM.
Those who have argued against my analysis have yet to offer any explanation of what is meant by "traditional". I await and welcome their attempts with interest.
Finally, tombo also accuses me of trying to inflate my own self-importance. I would suggest that it is my opponents and not I who are trying to maintain an exclusive club.
Re: Is Riverdance Rubbish??? Should it be posted here ?
If a group of consenting adults want to play a recently composed tune at their session, more power to them. And if anyone wants to add a newly composed tune to the many that are already on this website, more power to them (assuming they have the permission of the composer to do so). I enjoyed Riverdance, and think it did a good bit to make the "pie" larger for those who play traditional music, raised interest, brought in new listeners, players and dancers, made more record company available to musicians, etc.
That being said, I myself probably wouldn't play those tunes in a session, too many good authentic trad tunes to learn and play. What I enjoy in a stage show doesn't necessarily translate into something I would like to play in my local session.
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Tombo is an Aussie, who deigns to know all about Irish music.
I wonder if Tombo has ever been at an Irish session in Ireland.Could be quite a shock. Riverdance, being Irish Traditional music, would be the least of his/her worries. People singing Christy Moore songs about miners' strikes in the USA shouldn't unduly worry him/her. I imagine he/she could cope with the Dylan and Paul Simon numbers.
However the Gerry O'Connor "cajun" stuff would prove to be too much, and send him/her over the edge.
But what do I know living in Ireland, and going to and playing in sessions for a mere 41 years. Tombo assures me Riverdance popularised the bodhran. I didn't even know Sean O'Riada was in "Riverdance". Shows how much I know.
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Tombo, you've been told what's what by a bodhran player. How do you feel now? It's almost like being told how to play Irish music by a 3-year old, isn't it? Kind of like endearing and hilariously funny at the same time
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Those big drums in riverdance are not bodhrans .If river dance phoned any of us up to play I wonder who would say no.Bliss I remember last year when you were playing sessions for 40 years.I have a triangle does this mean I'm a rebel.
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Remember the majority of Irish people believe that Irish folk songs are the traditonal music of Ireland and when they say they love traditional music they are talking about Christy Moores songs and the Wolfe Tones songs.
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It got me wondering where the curly hair thing did come from in Irish dance competitions. Googling it pointed me to MidwestIrish.com which says:
"During the '20s and '30s, competitions were often held on Sunday after Mass. The girls competed in their Sunday best, and had their hair in curls as current fashion demanded. Since then, curls have been tradition."
As someone who has been through the nightmare of curling his daughter's hair for a competition, I'm all in favour of "fake" wigs. Interesting, though, to see it was the people from the wacky '20s and 30's that foisted the whole thing on us, not modern excess.
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I meant wigs and make up ok. oppps
I never said he was bad either, the thread just went that way but just imagine at your local session, you look past the backers and onto the melody players only to see them all sitting there with big curly wigs and so much fake tan they look like oompa lumpa's.
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Thanks BB for your lovely words, maybe next year we will bump into each other and i will be plesantly amazed at your bodhran playing....always looking for someone to prove me wrong about finding someone that can play a bodhran.....or maybe.......
Re: Is Riverdance Rubbish??? Should it be posted here ?
After reading some of his stuff....I've come to the conclusion that Mr Tombo is a wee bit of a snob, and only he and his select little bunch of musical all stars are the only ones that can play and really appreciate Irish Trad....to me his comment about the "ignorant masses" bears that out.....anal stuff,to be sure...
In the words of some past genius "I may not know art,but I know what I like"....
More power to the ignorant masses.....sign me up.....
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Sign me up for tombo's session please. Down with McTrad.
Talking about McTrad, you Riverdance lovers are like the waste left over after millions eat their Big Mac Meals - all those dirty paper bags and plastic containers and drinks bottles and sauce packets. You are to trad what that waste is to the environment.
Re: Is Riverdance Rubbish??? Should it be posted here ?
Tombo, given your knowledge of Irish music you would probably be amazed at my mandolin playing. Probably my whistle playing as well.
The crux of this debate to me was someone, I believe Dow, mentioning "session tunes", implying that these had to be specifically written, rather than writing tunes for a show. Irish tunes are Irish tunes.
And if we want to be pedantic about it, most of the tunes played at sessions were written for dancing to. Luckily we can fall back upon the Dylan numbers.
As for being jealous of the attention that bodhran players command, get over it. Just because you spent years learning tunes not to be appreciated by ignorent punters is no excuse for picking upon the darlings of the punters, the bodhran players.
Finally my dear Tombo, I doubt if you would be advanced enough to be amazed at my bodhran playing.
PS: Saint, Different Drums, the boys on Riverdance also use bodhrans made by Eamon Maguire from Belfast.
Re: Is Riverdance Rubbish??? Should it be posted here ?
Hear hear dow!! we will just go on playing tunes and enjoying ITM while those that like stuffing up a tradition can go on playing riverdance music and the likes. If that makes us snobs then so be it!!! BB you bodhran players are always so sensitive about your instrument, maybe it is because the majority of you really do stuff up a great session and only play it because you can't play any other instrument well. Question my playing and understanding if you must, you keep beating that goat skin and i wil keep playing tunes
Riverdance is crap always will be and will never survive the test of time!
Re: Is Riverdance Rubbish??? Should it be posted here ?
Say what you like about Riverdance,love it or hate it ....and stick pins in " Riverdance Lover" dolls ,but there's one thing,and this is the very bottom line here,Riverdance introduced a whole lot of people to Irish Music and Irish Culture........and THATS GOT TO BE A GOOD THING.....
Re: Is Riverdance Rubbish??? Should it be posted here ?
A whole lot of people across the world have been introduced to McDonald's and now regularly eat there, so, um, that's got to be a good thing, right? ',: -/
I'm not saying your logic is necessarily flawed, Zoukboy. Just that this depends to a large extent on your values and your general world view, particularly with respect to the value of cultural heritage. For me personally, it's about quality, not quantity.
Re: Is Riverdance Rubbish??? Should it be posted here ?
Bottom line is it introduced a lot of people to what they thought was ITM. as Dow said its all about cultural respect to a tradition and heritage. It is quite clear that Zoukboy you have a different value system and view of what is ITM and what you would allow in to the tradition that you participate in. Just because the masses like it doesn't make it right!
Re: Is Riverdance Rubbish??? Should it be posted here ?
Tombo and Dow would you care to specifcally define what you see as ITM? Also, given your aggressive rhetoric how does your analysis differ from the Hitlerian pursuit of burning books because they did not conform to their requirements.
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Tombo - read the earlier message. I never suggested you learn ITM from books, I simply likened your attitude to the behaviour of the fascists. Your inability to answer would seem to confirm it.
Re: Is Riverdance Rubbish??? Should it be posted here ?
I would agree, Riverdance is crap, but it is Irish traditional music. I think Gerry O'Connor is crap, and I always hated Stockton's Wing, but these people played Irish music. It is a matter of personal taste.
Unless you are an Aussie with ideas of what Irish music should be. If you are unfortunate enough to fall into that category, well, as I said, you are unfortunate.
By the way Dow, having mastered whistle and mandolin, I decided to try something difficult. I was never going to be the best in the world on mandolin, which is good for airs but crap for tunes, or the whistle. So I took up the bodhran, the rest is history. Although how I managed to do this 20 years before Riverdance invented Bodhrans, I am not sure. I would need to ask Tombo, the all knowing one.
The fact that he cannot distinguish between a lambeg and a bodhran does not deter me.
Re: Is Riverdance Rubbish??? Should it be posted here ?
"Unless you are an Aussie with ideas of what Irish music should be. If you are unfortunate enough to fall into that category, well, as I said, you are unfortunate."
Re: Is Riverdance Rubbish??? Should it be posted here ?
Yes, it's a matter of personal taste whether to like it or not. But I don't know how you can possibly argue that Riverdance is traditional Irish music. To say so is kind of, well, ridiculous. Sorry.
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Riverdance will eventually be viewed in the same light as Paddy in his leprechaun outfit singing “Danny Boy” on Vaudeville was; fondly by some and with scorn by others, but basically a cartooned up version of the tradition Broadwayed for popularity’s sake into a profit-making machine.
I still haven't watched it, but Jean Butler does make me testosterone percolate.
Re: Is Riverdance Rubbish??? Should it be posted here ?
My introduction to RD and Michael Flatley might help to put things in perspective. Flatley first:
He opened for Battlefield Band, billed as a flute player (my instrument). He also danced. This was before RD. I thought he was full of himself as a dancer, and only marginal as a flute player. Had no preconceived notions, as I had never heard of him, so my reactions were not biased. I think the subsequent ego thing with Flatley has colored people's take on RD, which is unfair.
My introduction to RD was when I was shown a video of the original seven-minute Eurovison Contest performance that spawned the show. I recognized Flatley, and liked him much better in this than in his "flute" performance. When I heard it was to become a show, I thought one seven-minute number does not a full evening of theatre make. I was wrong. It was as good a theatre experience as I have ever attended, and I've attended many. If it's not your cup of tea, I have no issue, but to denigrate it is just silly. Dance shows are not the stuff of a hot Broadway show, no matter how much you tart it up. The only way a show like this would ever survive, much less be the success it has been, is if it has something truly wonderful to offer.
Now, does the music of RD belong here? Or at a session? Probably not. Even the tunes that are pretty traditional in sound are not session tunes. I have learned to play some for my own pleasure, because some of it is good on flute, and all of it is damn fine, IMO. It's not traditional, nor was it intended to be. I think Eileen Ivers' solo and the pipe solo deserve special mention as great Irish music.
So Riverdance certainly is not rubbish, but it also isn't something it never claimed to be: A collection of traditional Irish tunes. If anyone has a problem with that, the person in question must have a very narrow mind, indeed.
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Was the wig question ever resolved?
Wearing one would certainly bring a baroque flavour to the music, but what if it slipped off?- owner scrabbling to get it off the floor, dancers doing the splits, dogs rushing round stage trying to catch it- mayhem.
Surely there's a European directive against wearing them while playing Irish music- Health and Safety.
Re: Is Riverdance Rubbish??? Should it be posted here ?
BB the fun never wears off getting you worked up about how good bodhrans are! Lighten up you might burst a valve and then you will have a hard time beating that drum! Anyway if you call Riverdance Traditional Irish Music you really don't have a clue!
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Dow.....one could argue that McDonalds IS Western food....judging by the amount of their shops around the world....and I fail to see the connection between Mcsh*te and Irish Trad....
I dont think that the producers of Riverdance set out to introduce people to Irish Trad.......I think their idea was was to produce a show that people liked and to make money...They've had great success on both fronts...
And to Mr Tombo.....I'd say that the people who thought that this is Traditional Music.........after a while, would realise that it's not,and go a bit deeper..........I did ,and realised what agreat tradition it is..........AND.........your phrase "what you would ALLOW into the tradition" ....who are these people that ALLOW some stuff and not other stuff ???.... The Tradition Police.....a good job for you Mr Tombo.....
Nuff said for me I reckon........
Re: Is Riverdance Rubbish??? Should it be posted here ?
How is dancing to an Eastern European rhythm in some weird time signature in any sense "traditional Irish dancing"?
# Posted on November 6th 2007 by Dow
Flatley may be an absolute rectum perforation but he can do Irish dancing. So could Jean whatever. So Irish dancing to tunes, that's the tradition.
Now if you happen to believe that Irish tunes should be restricted to some set pattern, rhythm, rules and policing, well, then you have a problem, and underestimate and fail to understand the creativity and joie de vivre that the Irish possess. Indeed, perhaps it is a failure to understand the Irish, and attempts to categorise them, that causes much of the problem on the board.
On the same theme, categorizing and showing limited imagination,
Oh by the way BB does being a morris dancer make you an authority on ITM????? A bit like the pot calling the kettle black I think!
# Posted on November 7th 2007 by tombo
Did it never strike you, in your wildest imagination, that the Musicians who play for the Morris dancers, may just be able to play something else? Perhaps your imagination is limited, and everyone and thing has to fit into a neat little box. Morris Dancers "Garryowen and a few other tunes". ITM, "a few select tunes that I Tombo consider to be the genre" and that's it.?
I enjoyed some great sessions all over England at Morris festivals. Like the best sessions it was mostly Irish, Scottish tunes as well, and the odd set of Lancashire tunes thrown in as well. Wonderful happy times, before Johnny come Lately "traditionalists" decided to label everything. And I was a North West cl;og Morris Dancer, even morris dancing doesn't fall into a set neat little box, my dear Tombo.
As for "how good bodhrans are" I have always said "I am absolutely amazingly good on my main instrument, albeit a humble bodhran." It is merely a simple backing instrument. But one that enables you to play all over the world, with a "Who's who" of Irish traditional musicians, people like O'Flynn, Molloy, Hastings, Hannan, Kevin Burke,Spillane, Peoples, none of whom I am glad to report feel that Irish music is limited, and strictly structured, and are happy to play all sorts of tunes.
But what would they know? Poor wandering lost souls, ploughing a lonely trail through life, unaware of the rules and regulations of Irish music, as defined by those from other nations and cultures.
Re: Is Riverdance Rubbish??? Should it be posted here ?
Irish people are open to all cultures thats what make us Irish we embrace all no matter what creed or colour .The music is the same no rules written in stone.Maybe some of ye should read the Irish proclaimation to get an Idea what Irishness is .There are so many people from different parts of the world now living in Ireland and they concider themselves now as Irish people, soon they will have an Influnce on how "ITM" is played and thats just how it is.
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I hear the ring of bells, stomping of boots and the banging of sticks! Its the morris men BB you words cut deap and hard, I never ever saw myself as a Johnny Come Lately Traditionalist! Back to your dancing boyo!
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Talking about the stomping of boots - Riverdance has already affected the irish step dancing scene, from what I saw at the recent Joe Cooley weekend in Gort. While a brilliant box player was belting out tunes during a concert, the girls from a local dance school stepped out some jigs and reels to his music. Then they asked him to stop playing (which he did with good humour) and they stomped out one of those unison (i.e. nearly in unison) battering items with the dancers in lines across the stage - a Riverdance trademark. After that an old guy did some sean nos dancing to some reels and the audience enjoyed the whole thing.
PS: I'm twice tombo's age, so he'll always be the 'johnny come lately' even if he is such a bloody good player
Re: Is Riverdance Rubbish??? Should it be posted here ?
"Dow.....one could argue that McDonalds IS Western food....judging by the amount of their shops around the world....and I fail to see the connection between Mcsh*te and Irish Trad...."
I'm sorry, your world view is so different to mine that I'm finding it impossible to find any common ground here. Your viewpoint and logic are totally alien to me and beyond my comprehension. I don't even know where to start in trying to discuss this with you. That is, unless you're joking and just winding me up - it's a bit difficult to tell. I hope you are...
LOL @ tombo's Morris comment - that was below the belt!
Re: Is Riverdance Rubbish??? Should it be posted here ?
"Now if you happen to believe that Irish tunes should be restricted to some set pattern, rhythm, rules and policing, well, then you have a problem, and underestimate and fail to understand the creativity and joie de vivre that the Irish possess. Indeed, perhaps it is a failure to understand the Irish, and attempts to categorise them, that causes much of the problem on the board."
Re: Is Riverdance Rubbish??? Should it be posted here ?
"Irish people are open to all cultures thats what make us Irish we embrace all no matter what creed or colour .The music is the same no rules written in stone.Maybe some of ye should read the Irish proclaimation to get an Idea what Irishness is .There are so many people from different parts of the world now living in Ireland and they concider themselves now as Irish people, soon they will have an Influnce on how "ITM" is played and thats just how it is."
Also ethnocentric sh*te. Some Irish people can be just as intolerant and suspicious of outsiders as anyone else.
Re: Is Riverdance Rubbish??? Should it be posted here ?
Dow......No mate,I'm not trying to wind you up,you're pretty good at doing that all by yourself...
My viewpoint and logic just comes from being an ordinary bloke, so I guess we'd never have a common ground....
Taking things too seriously can lead to undue stress....IMHO...
Re: Is Riverdance Rubbish??? Should it be posted here ?
ethnocentric thats a lovely word coming from a culture that tried to civilize the world.
"Some Irish people can be just as intolerant and suspicious of outsiders as anyone else."
10/10 for that comment the same way some English people can be nice people .The Irish culture will always take on board other cultures the music explains that Polkas ,Hornpipes,Reels all influenced by other cultures yet strongly identified with ITM.
Re: Is Riverdance Rubbish??? Should it be posted here ?
Any culture will always take on board other cultures unless they're isolated in the Amazon rainforest, devoid of contact with anyone other than their own tribe. Get real, Saint. There's no substitute for playing the real thing. Unfortunately being Irish doesn't make you automatically realise this. Oh well, your loss.
Re: Is Riverdance Rubbish??? Should it be posted here ?
Might I suggest, Saint, that if you put away that stoopid drum and actually learnt how to play some tunes on a musical instrument, then you'd get a feel for what the real thing is. It's great - trust me, you should try it sometime.
Re: Is Riverdance Rubbish??? Should it be posted here ?
it never ceases to amaze me that it is the drum players that are agruing and pontificating that Riverdance and crap like it, is ITM....my last ever word on this matter....why don't you go learn a real instrument!
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What amazes me even more is that we've been bothering to even read their comments. C'mon tombo let's go and have some tunes and leave these guys to it. We shouldn't have to be explaining to people what tunes are. Bodhran players waste enough of our precious time in sessions - don't let them ruin your online life as well.
Re: Is Riverdance Rubbish??? Should it be posted here ?
Skin and bow by folan and davey is in your real list .Do you like that type of bodhran playing I didn't think you would have a bodhran cd on your list because of the way you feel about the drum.A bit of double standards there.
Tombo welcome to the six inch club.
The real world a place where Dow can bully who wants followed by his six inch club .You can have it.
Re: Is Riverdance Rubbish??? Should it be posted here ?
The real world.....Its not Saint -
Thats why they live across the other side of the world and speak and behave like social misfits to others about what THEY think it should be through the safety of a website...
Thus, missing the point of 'the real thing' completely.
I'm glad others over time have spotted that...you should recognise it too, and revel in it.
Re: Is Riverdance Rubbish??? Should it be posted here ?
Well stuff ye's all..............I had a grand session last night and thanks to JosephofCK posting his tune I wacked it out to the delight of the crowd !!!!
Re: Is Riverdance Rubbish??? Should it be posted here ?
Silly me......I thought this was music for the people.....the ordinary bloke (and sheila)...played by the people.......
I dont eat McDonalds.....
"Come on Tombo,lets go and have some tunes and leave these guys to it "....ah, may true love flourish...Dow and Tombo,a candlelight dinner and some nice wine ..playing tunes by themselves......for themselves...how sweet it is .
Re: Is Riverdance Rubbish??? Should it be posted here ?
Sorry Mr Tombo..I reckon It'd be a long dinner, and I dont know a real lot of tunes....
Funny thing though....This thread has gotten a bit bitchy at times....but I reckon all the posters, for and against Riverdance ,would probably get along well together...after all,we're all musicians,usually a tolerant and peaceful lot...
I'll always leap to the defence of Riverdance,the same way that you'd leap to the defence of your brother.....
As I've said before......I doubt if I ever would have came across Irish Music if it was'nt for RD..and I'm super grateful to it for that....
Re: Is Riverdance Rubbish??? Should it be posted here ?
King Of The Fairies is one I haven't played in a long while. It's a bit hackneyed in some areas, but not in these parts.
By saying it's in Riverdance, I assume you're trying to make a point that it follows that Riverdance is necessarily traditional, Welshman? If that's the case then I'm afraid you're simply incorrect. Traditional tunes are used in a lot of different non-traditional contexts. To give you just one example, take this tune http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display.php/1580. It was used by the Corrs on one of their albums. Surely you wouldn't say that the Corrs were Irish traditional music, or even that they played trad tunes in a traditional style?
Re: Is Riverdance Rubbish??? Should it be posted here ?
Actually Dow I was simply saying that to my mind 'King of the Fairies' is a lovely tune - aided and abetted by the delicious sound of uiellean pipes (an instrument that always leaves me in awe and admiration). The fact that it was in Riverdance is in this instance a side issue. If I was to be held to account I would have to say that in large part I am not especially attracted to the music content in Riverdance. For example - I have to confess to not being over-enthused with choral work and so I tend to try to skip parts where Anuna perform. However I admit to more than a teeny spine-tingle whenever the dancers are all together.
Thankfully I haven't heard the Corrs rendition of the Lark's March and as I am, shall we say not one of their greatest fans, I rather suspect that this will not change. My own listening would tend to be more dominated by traditional musicians from all over the world.
In answer to your question I would personally argue (although I ahve not heard a lot of their material) that the Corrs do not play in a traditional style (as I understand it). However you ask a far more intersting question that could require a theisis - and that is .. are the Corrs Irish traditional music? Here I would suggest we would need to precisely define what is traditional music and this I would argue has been at the crux of our debate.
On a separate note - thanks for introducing me to the Lark's March .. now I know what next week's obsession will be!!!!!
Re: Is Riverdance Rubbish??? Should it be posted here ?
well well! Thanks for the links, fair dues to matt and micheal, lovely duet.
And i liked his masons apron too, great stuff .
Its easy to criticize from the sidelines.
Re: Is Riverdance Rubbish??? Should it be posted here ?
Mmm, yeah. It's a difficult one. Definitely one for a thesis. We've had that debate here a number if times here, and the only conclusion we've reached is along the lines of "it's traditional if we as a community say it is". Most, if not all of us would agree that the Corrs isn't trad music. With other things it gets a bit blurred though. The only thing I would say is that the more experience you have of a particular tradition, through immersion in it, the more likely you are to be able to make a sound judgement on whether something belongs to that tradition or not. Of course it's subjective, but I'd say that someone who has been playing in weekly sessions for 30 or 40 years would have a fuller picture of what the tradition is about than a newbie with 10 tunes who's only been playing less than a year, for example.
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Ok but there are a lot of young and gifted muso's who are stretching these foundries, incorporating weird rhythms etc.
THe old guard may shudder at the thought; it has to be done this way ! We might think its up to 'us' as a community , but who is us?
Re: Is Riverdance Rubbish??? Should it be posted here ?
I always like to observe how generous a lot of the real Irish people on this site are about someone having success. Its also reflected in their support for sport etc.
All the tight arse stuff about tradition seems to come from other places. Like someone from the north of Australia making references to Brit occupation of Ireland through history. ( Double Cringe), like they really understand and sympathise.
Whelan did what he liked with the music, he should be able to,
he's the real deal. I'm sure his countrymen congratulate him and hope he does it again.
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Actually Chuneboi slim, I can sympathise with the Irish as the British did exactly the same thing to the Aboriginals of Australia, so before you going accusing other people of not understanding, why don't you learn a bit of history!
Re: Is Riverdance Rubbish??? Should it be posted here ?
Oh double cringe to you chuneboi slim, you live in brisbane and can't see that we can sympathise with the irish over the british occupation?!!!! maybe a one nation supporter or worse a john howard supporter, but we wont bring politics into this will we? pass on my best to kevin and marcie!
Re: Is Riverdance Rubbish??? Should it be posted here ?
Firstly Tombo, whoever you are, its not advisable to mention peoples names on a thread, I've found out about that the hard way. Please don't do that again because I'll be in the sh*t.
Secondly as a matter of fact if you want to find me on election day, I'll be handing out for the "your rights at work campaign" as a CFMEU volunteer. They've already asked me what sandwiches I like and what beer I prefer. I have nothing to hide.
Where will you be? Maybe I'll see you at the party after when we get our new P.M.
No sir, I am involved in my own country's past present and future. Keep the Faith Tombo.
Re: Is Riverdance Rubbish??? Should it be posted here ?
Whoa, you Australian dudes really go at it, eh? Whew.
On a lighter note...well I'll be. King of the Fairies is in Riverdance? I'd better watch that to see if I've accidentally learned any other tunes from there. Crap.
Is Riverdance Rubbish??? Should it be posted here ?
Is Riverdance Rubbish??? Should it be posted here ?
JosephofCK was kind enough to post the Riverdance tune, or at least part of the set, but he then "ruined" (just kidding
) his brownie points in my book when he questioned the legitimacy of the song as an ITM piece / set
I believe the Riverdance Song did wonders for the ITM in general quarters and indeed I would go so far as to say almost as much as O'Riarda did and in very similar ways.
O'Riarda and his group Ceoltóirí Cualann took the “Didely Daaa” out of ITM and put some finesse into it, almost like an orchestra but with the rough and readiness of Moloney.
Doesn’t Riverdance take it a step further and put some real “Panache” into the whole thing ??? Especially the 3rd part of the set…. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i7ydWMgBBZU …. At minute 4.06 on the video or minute 5.14………….
I think it's great stuff that can be wacked out at any session and can't thank JofCK enough.
Slán
# Posted on November 3rd 2007 by Enigma
Re: Is Riverdance Rubbish??? Should it be posted here ?
This website is for session tunes. Riverdance was written for the Riverdance show. The tunes aren't session material now, were probably never meant to be, and hopefully will never be in the future. It's as simple as that, isn't it? Nothing to stop people posting them of course, but don't be surprised if weekly session-goers make comments along the lines of "this isn't a session tune". It's nothing to get your knickers in a twist about.
# Posted on November 3rd 2007 by Dow
Re: Is Riverdance Rubbish??? Should it be posted here ?
I've never seen any of the riverdance music played at a session anywhere, and while it could be argued that it contributed to it's popularity, I can't think of any way it has enhanced the music in a permanent way. It certainly has been a big earner for a generation of dancers, and a few musicians competent at miming, and you can allways count on one or two of them turning up here to defend it.
For me it was over after the first few times I listened. All glitter, precious little substance. After the great work he did with Planxty, including "Timedance", Bill Whelan sold his soul.
# Posted on November 3rd 2007 by Backer
Re: Is Riverdance Rubbish??? Should it be posted here ?
If you play a sound-track in your session and wave instruments around in time, there is no reason why it can't be posted here.
I was most amused by the Riverdance dvd (borrowed rather than bought - only watched once - zzzzzzz) when the sound track started up whilst the musicians were still clapping - I still haven't worked out how the dancers manage to tap whilst up in the air - any suggestions?
The dvd didn't feature anyone actually dancing in the aforementioned river - was that bit too horrific to show to children?
# Posted on November 3rd 2007 by geoffwright
Re: Is Riverdance Rubbish??? Should it be posted here ?
A corollary question might need to also be discussed. At what speed does a dance tune lose its' "soul". I can hardly think of tunes I enjoy playing at 120 beats per minute, even for dancers.
108-112 is about as fast as I ever want to go, unless it's a tune I don't like and just want to get rid of it. I agree with Dow & Backer.
# Posted on November 3rd 2007 by windybaer
Re: Is Riverdance Rubbish??? Should it be posted here ?
Riverdance did for Irish culture what Mr. Holland's Opus did for public school music programs. That is, suddenly we are in the spotlight at the high cost of accuracy and mis-formed opinions. Life is all about taking the wheat with the chaff, and I am (somewhat) grateful for the publicity.
# Posted on November 3rd 2007 by Greg the Piano Tuner
Re: Is Riverdance Rubbish??? Should it be posted here ?
I think Riverdance and everything associated with it is wonderful and is the best thing that ever happened to traditional music. Riverdance did real wonders for traditional music by making it really popular with people who previously hadn't even heard of it, so that proves how good Riverdance is. In fact, I'd go even further. Everything in Irish trad music that came before Riverdance is a load of boring, pathetic, hopeless nonsense. Anyone who likes it or plays that load of old cobblers, should be taken out and compulsorarily euthenased with an AK47. I mean, how could anyone possibly want to bother playing something that isn't massively popular? It's beyond me.
# Posted on November 3rd 2007 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: Is Riverdance Rubbish??? Should it be posted here ?
Danny, you're SUCH a wag!
# Posted on November 3rd 2007 by oldstrings
Re: Is Riverdance Rubbish??? Should it be posted here ?
Danny may be many things but the "Wife and Girlfriend" of an England footballer he most certainly is not!
# Posted on November 3rd 2007 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Is Riverdance Rubbish??? Should it be posted here ?
To turn a phrase;
Just because you are paranoid doesn't mean "they" are out to get you.
# Posted on November 3rd 2007 by Tonya
Re: Is Riverdance Rubbish??? Should it be posted here ?
Surely the test of a good old traditional piece of dance music is a strong melody line. In other words how would it sound with no backing, on a whistle for instance. I think River Dance would fail on that score.
# Posted on November 4th 2007 by Free Reed
Re: Is Riverdance Rubbish??? Should it be posted here ?
Is not the test if anyone plays it in twenty years time ?
# Posted on November 4th 2007 by bazouki dave and the real tooty flutey
Riverdance Set ??? Should it be posted here ?
Enigma you are well named.
I think you are asking about a set of tunes composed by Bill Whelan. Part of which was posted here;
http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/7927
I briefly scanned the YouTube link so I have not taken the time to listen to the "set".
Could you just confirm that you are referring to the unnamed set & not the "song" or "Riverdance" in general.
I don't want to ruin the discussion but I would like it if you could give me that one detail. Or am I way out of the ballpark?
Cheers!
# Posted on November 4th 2007 by Tonya
Re: Is Riverdance Rubbish??? Should it be posted here ?
Help me understand something above, please -- "sold his soul"?
How does a professional composer, asked to grind out a piece of music for a certain purpose or performance, sell his soul when he does just that, and it works? At least it was HIS and he got paid.
At least a few of the geniuses who wrote the "legitimately" ITM music we love so well died without a penny or a credit.
I hope the man makes millions off the stuff! Maybe the next great Wendy's jingle? something for Ebay? Go, Bill!
(None of this is meant to suggest that I am enamoured of Riverdance or its music, but could we maintain our grip on reality, and be a bit charitable when we disagree? )
Gripe over.
Ignore the above, like the other ravings.
Good night.
Bless you all.
# Posted on November 4th 2007 by Rook
Re: Is Riverdance Rubbish??? Should it be posted here ?
I was leering, not listening.
# Posted on November 4th 2007 by chuneboi slim
Re: Is Riverdance Rubbish??? Should it be posted here ?
By the way, Mr. Holland's Opus creeped me out.
# Posted on November 4th 2007 by wyogal
Re: Is Riverdance Rubbish??? Should it be posted here ?
We play from time to time a couple of tunes from Riverdance in our session. One fast one - American Wake, and one slow one - Home and the Heartland. Never been v. keen personally on the fast one , though many seem to enjoy playing it, but I do really like the slow one, especially if there is a really good whistle player around - both tunes fit in well we all think.
(But then we also sometimes play Israeli, Eastern European and the occasional Cajun tune in our session - don't tell the ITM police...)
Bye now
Keith
# Posted on November 4th 2007 by ocarolan
Re: Is Riverdance Rubbish??? Should it be posted here ?
I fear Dow is misleading you here. If a tune is played at a session it is a session tune. It may not have been written as such, but if played at a session, it is a session tune. Sully wrote "The exile of Erin" to commemorate a pub, it is now played at sessions, so is a session tune. A good 80% of the tunes were "composed" before modern sessions began, but they are still session tunes, because they are played at sessions. Most of them were written for someones personal amusement.
So if you want to play Riverdance or the "Titanic" theme at a session, go right ahead. The very odd misguided musical snob may object, but thankfully there are not too many of that type surviving. Thanks to Riverdance.
# Posted on November 4th 2007 by bodhran bliss
Re: Is Riverdance Rubbish??? Should it be posted here ?
I play Exile Of Erin - a modern composition - at my session regularly. What's your point, Bliss?
# Posted on November 4th 2007 by Dow
Re: Is Riverdance Rubbish??? Should it be posted here ?
A while ago someome posted the theme tune to Super Mario Bros, I seem to remember, and also Final Fantasy. Perhaps if I play those in every session I go to from now on they will enter the tradition.
BB put your thinking cap on.
# Posted on November 4th 2007 by Dow
Re: Is Riverdance Rubbish??? Should it be posted here ?
On ya Dow! Riverdance has done nothing for ITM except a lot of miss guided people that think that taking a few lessons in irish dancing and picking up a bodhran counts them in as irish session players.
# Posted on November 4th 2007 by tombo
Re: Is Riverdance Rubbish??? Should it be posted here ?
tombo i find that listerine is good for getting the taste of sick out of your mouth
# Posted on November 4th 2007 by Dow
Re: Is Riverdance Rubbish??? Should it be posted here ?
# Posted on November 4th 2007 by tombo
Re: Is Riverdance Rubbish??? Should it be posted here ?
Rubbish? No - no more than Fiddler on the Roof is.
Posted here? Don't care.
# Posted on November 4th 2007 by grego
Re: Is Riverdance Rubbish??? Should it be posted here ?
Rook, I'm fascinated that you think monetary gain should be the yardstick for success.
# Posted on November 4th 2007 by Backer
Re: Is Riverdance Rubbish??? Should it be posted here ?
I enjoyed the music from Riverdance from the first time that I HEARD it. I've always felt that the original music is what made the show, not the dancing. I've been trying to add the Countess Cathleen and Slip Into Spring to my repertoire ever since. I find them both to be technically very challenging pieces. I've never played them in a session but someday I will if I ever get them to session level proficiency. (Countess Cathleen is in the tune database here.) I think that the typical criticism of the show is not based upon musical criteria, but rather other
non-music related reactions to the marketing and personnel involved with the original production.
# Posted on November 4th 2007 by halfwaythere
Re: Is Riverdance Rubbish??? Should it be posted here ?
Backer:
I find myself somewhat sympathetic toward llig at this moment - my post neither said nor, I think, implied anything of the kind.
What I thought I indicated was simply that being hired to write a jingle should, IMHO, not detract from the validity or appreciation of a composer's other works. He is not writing trad stuff, I admit, but I do not see the contradiction in B. Manilow writing some tunes I find most impressive, and at the same time being hired out for all those rather annoying TV advertising themes. Business is business, self-exrpession is self-expression.
Myself, I took a gig to play a Burn's Night and wound up being requested to play and sing a few tunes I would never pay for personal pleasure nor at any performance where I was given the choice of selecting my repertoire. But I was hired to.
I must suspect that, as a musician yourself, any regular paying or gratis jobs you have had in the past may have involved doing the occasional less-than-palatable "request". Much the same thing, I would judge.
In fairness, perhaps I should have emphasized PAID TO WRITE IT, as opposed to writing a piece as a form of persopnal expression. If so, I hope this clarifies my position somewhat.
# Posted on November 4th 2007 by Rook
Re: Is Riverdance Rubbish??? Should it be posted here ?
I'm with grego on this.
Why should you guys care?
The choral arrangements from Riverdance are especially beautiful.
I'm pretty convinced that in 20 years both session music and the music from this Broadway show will continue to be popular in different venues.
# Posted on November 4th 2007 by morning star
Re: Is Riverdance Rubbish??? Should it be posted here ?
It might be on Broadway but I CHALLENGE anyone to follow this little bit of "rubbish" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jCWw27UqvCQ
# Posted on November 4th 2007 by Enigma
Re: Is Riverdance Rubbish??? Should it be posted here ?
Now that's a nice bit of crossover, Enigma. Lovely it is.
# Posted on November 4th 2007 by morning star
Re: Is Riverdance Rubbish??? Should it be posted here ?
I never liked Riverdance, always thought it was overblown nonsense, I recently sat down and listened to it in retrospect. Most of it has dated horribly (have you listened to the 'song' at the end, it's painful!), it is basically a broadway show that has little to do with traditional Irish music and dancing. As a Broadway show it is very slick and professional and probably great if you're into that kind of thing, I'm not, I hate Broadway shows....
The only times I've ever heard Riverdance/Bill Whelan tunes at a session are ones involving Germans! How many of you have heard the following at a session? "I'm very much liking your Irish music, can you play Riverdance?!!"
I think the trouble with Riverdance is that it was many peoples first exposure to 'Irish' music so they presume that it is authentic in some way, whereas there is very little in Riverdance that actually relates to the tradition. It is a Broadway show with influences from Eastern Europe, Ireland, Spain and other places, in that respect it is very effective and good luck to Bill Whelan for making a fortune out of it. I think he genuinely loves Irish music so I suppose he'd be heartened if in fact Riverdance was responsible for bringing the world's attention to Irish music. It may have got a lot of people into the more commercial side of trad but I wonder how many people after hearing Riverdance went on to explore Irish music in detail?
I know some people who got into Irish music through Riverdance but they can't listen to old recordings because they aren't slick enough, so if anything Riverdance has had a detrimental effect on trad in the long run because it has created a group of people who claim to like 'Irish music' whereas they only really like the commercial side of it rather than the real soul of it.
I will admit that the main theme to Riverdance is actually quite a good composition for its type but it has little to do with Irish traditional music except for the fact that it has Uilleann Pipes and some other Irish instruments. The rhythms and melodic shape in the tune make it much closer to Eastern European music, indeed it is from Andy Irvine's love of Bulgarian music that Whelan got his inspiration, still it has little to do with Bulgarian, Irish or Spanish traditional music really, it is Broadway show music plain and simple.
Rant over..............
# Posted on November 4th 2007 by Worldwide Pants
Re: Is Riverdance Rubbish??? Should it be posted here ?
Good stuff, frisbee.
I've had to explain to several well-meaning English friends, offering a night out at 'Riverdance' or one of its clones, that, unfortunately, all that light and agitation brings me out in leprechauns, and, anyway, 9pm is well past my bedtime.
# Posted on November 4th 2007 by P-K
Re: Is Riverdance Rubbish??? Should it be posted here ?
Morning Star there's another longer version at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Gjxxt4kRws quite nice also ....
Slán
# Posted on November 4th 2007 by Enigma
Re: Is Riverdance Rubbish??? Should it be posted here ?
I was most interested to read the replies on this thread and also admit to some astonishment. If we call ourselves traditional musicians surely must accept we have a responsibility at 2 levels. Firstly to maintain our aural and written tradition by playing tunes (and songs?) that in some instances can date back as far as the Middle Ages. But also to acknowledge a secnd obligation that we are required to maintain and develop a tradition that will be carried for future generations.
In two hundred years what will musicians be playing to demonstarte their affinity with the music of the 21st century? At one level of course they will have music by U2 and the Pogues, but what about the rest of Irish culture? Musicians such as Chieftains, Lunasa, Solas and other have done much to keep ITM alive. But surely we aren't so closed minded to assume that time stopped for ITM the day O'Carolan died? More likely historians in the 23rd century will recall a stupendously successful demonstration of evolving Irish music occurred and that one of the key writers of that era was Bill Whelan. Now we may disagree with that (I would happen to be one of them) but nonetheless we would have to acknowledge his impact on the evolution of traditional music.
I would argue that the number of people who have see Riverdance has far excceeded the number who have been to any fleadh or indeed any session!! The tragedy of this thread isthat we should be asking why Riverdance might be seen as the prime mover and shaker of ITM in the the new milleniem. Is there more that we could be doing to make the music and the dance more accessible to the general public? Are we our own worst enemeies because of our own incestuous overprotection of "the art"?
D
# Posted on November 4th 2007 by Welshman
Re: Is Riverdance Rubbish??? Should it be posted here ?
"Is there more that we could be doing to make the music and the dance more accessible to the general public? "asks Welshman.
From what I can tell the music and dance are very accessible to the general public, certainly in Ireland, the UK, the US, Germany, Japan and so on and the gneral public tends to appreciate it very much. There's no need for us to dilute it to make it more 'popular', by this I don't mean there shouldn't be room for experimentation, I love it when I hear someone take the music in a new direction, so long as it's not a commercial dumbing down of the music alá Celtic Woman
The main thing that concerns me about the Riverdance phenomenon is that it has become so definitively 'Irish music' to some people whereas it is really only slightly influenced by Irish traditional music, as I said in my previous post, it is a Broadway Show dominated by Eastern European rhythms with some Irish and Spanish influence too. In that respect it's fine, it is a perfectly valid and successful Broadway show but if in 200 years time historians see Riverdance as one of the main evolutions of Irish traditional music then the music will be dead. Of course I'm sure they won't see it that way, they will see it for what it is a big commercial show which in some way contributed to the Irish music 'boom' of the 1990's.
# Posted on November 5th 2007 by Worldwide Pants
Riverdance Set
Bill Whelan's composition. Thanks Welshman.
There are two topics here;
1) The compositions of Mr. Whelan which can be played as tunes separate from the full arrangements & production of 'Riverdance' *
2) The 2nd topic is the spectacle of Riverdance itself.
I think on the orignal post Enigma was asking about a 'set' of tunes composed for 'Riverdance'
So . . . is it fair to ask if "the set" might stand alone & be adopted by session players ~ or not?
*As musicians this should be a basic concept for all present.
A tune - a set - no lights - no applause - no fanfare . . .
# Posted on November 5th 2007 by Tonya
Re: Is Riverdance Rubbish??? Should it be posted here ?
Did anyone read Tom Munnelly's presentation to the Crossroads Conference at the time?
May you should, it was a lucid and most definite analysis of all this.
# Posted on November 5th 2007 by kilfarboy
Re: Is Riverdance Rubbish??? Should it be posted here ?
Tonya, thanks for that clarification, you seem to be one of the very few who have not got all emotional about this and actually hit it on the head with what I was actually asking and suggesting.
I'm glad I started the debate though as I've come to two conclusions.
1) If this was about Rock, Elvis would have been linched by this mob already...........
2) Searching through YT on Riverdance I've come across a great piece on flute played by Michael Flatley but was actually cut from the original 1994 score.(See link above) I've just spent all day playing it on my Low D and it sounds bloody magic
- Michael is a bit more than just a "Paddy Travolta"
Slán
# Posted on November 5th 2007 by Enigma
Elvis @ the Crossroads (aka Riverrubbish ? ? ?)
You're not messing with me are you? With all due respect to Elvis
let's not forget Carl Perkins contribution;
http://www.history-of-rock.com/perkins.htm
kilfarboy please enlighten us. I cannot find the text for the speech. The one in 2003, University of Ulster, right?
# Posted on November 5th 2007 by Tonya
Re: Is Riverdance Rubbish??? Should it be posted here ?
Did anyone else here that Michael Flatley is hanging up his dancing shoes to become a flutist, yes i meant to say that, not a flautist but a flutist.( and before anyone corrects me I know both word are actually in the Oxford dictionary, its just flautist is the more accpeted term these days)
It was in the papers here the other day in an interview with him.
I hope he doesnt do to Flute playing what he did to Irish Dancing. Fake wigs and loadsa make up................
# Posted on November 5th 2007 by Lollypoll
Re: Is Riverdance Rubbish??? Should it be posted here ?
"Riverdance did nothing except encourage a few people to think a few dancing steps and picking up a bodhran meant you were a trad musician".
posted more or less by Tombo.
The likes of Davy Spillane, is that who you mean, Tombo?
Some of the music in Riverdance is excellent, much of it fits the "Traditional" genre, so what is the problem? I think "Halfwaythere" was right. Some people have a problem with individuals enjoying commercial success, and transpose that to the music.
Sully wrote the "Exile" in memory of the pub, but his main reason was so that he could sell more books and records. He did not say "This is a session tune". Yet it is accepted as such. So why not "Riverdance"?
# Posted on November 5th 2007 by bodhran bliss
Re: Is Riverdance Rubbish??? Should it be posted here ?
Lollypolly he's brilliant on the flute see him at this link with Molloy he stands his ground fair and square on the blackwood...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b5Lv1y2l3Aw
# Posted on November 5th 2007 by Enigma
Re: Is Riverdance Rubbish??? Should it be posted here ?
nope. The poor we chappy didn't do anything anywhere near stand his ground in that clip. I'm afraid it was merely a succinct example of the man being carried. Watch how close flathead is to the mike compared wilt Molloy. Matt, with his consummate lack of ego holds back so as not to drown the man. There's at least three bits where fleathead flannels and Matt plays right through it until he catches up. Listen especially to the very last note, flathead finishes first, but you can't hear him stopping.
# Posted on November 5th 2007 by llig leahcim
Re: Is Riverdance Rubbish??? Should it be posted here ?
jaysus that's some bad fluting
# Posted on November 5th 2007 by ecidralla
Re: Is Riverdance Rubbish??? Should it be posted here ?
Ahhhh.....Riverdance Bashing rears its ugly head,yet again.....So what if Riverdance isnt Trad..?? It's still Irish, and there's still some great music there...I reckon some of you Riverdance Bashers actually likle some of it....but it would'nt cool to admit that would it ??
I'm obsessed with Irish Trad and have about 300 CD's ranging from early 'pure drop' stuff all the way to Lunasa....and if it was'nt for Riverdance,I would NEVER been exposed to Irish music. I'm eternally grateful to Bill Whelan and Riverdance..
Lighten up folks,we,re not gonna out of this thing alive...........zoukboy....Irish Trad Tragic....
# Posted on November 5th 2007 by zoukboy
Re: Is Riverdance Rubbish??? Should it be posted here ?
"like some of it"...
# Posted on November 5th 2007 by zoukboy
Re: Is Riverdance Rubbish??? Should it be posted here ?
Gill you never fail to show your class ,How you can get away with calling Michael Flatley flathead on this site.Michael Flatley is an extremely talented man .Riverdance changed so many peoples lives ,Irish dancers and musician got a chance to be professionals.Mr. Flatley has called into local sessions in Cork (his home)and played and he's a gent .Riverdance made me proud to be Irish because Its quality stuff ,Just look at the musicians that have played with riverdance over the years.
# Posted on November 5th 2007 by Saint
Re: Is Riverdance Rubbish??? Should it be posted here ?
BB riverdance was the reason we have so many bodhrans in sessions these days....don't you know that! also riverdance is the reason why most people play irish music, the lovely melodic tunes really are such an improvement from the traditional tunes of ireland. I am so glad that i have been informed by the masses that riverdance is great....one wonders why we have all been stumbling around in the dark. Are we going to hear next that solas and lunasa have contributed more to ITM then the real players themselves, those that haven't used ITM for their own gratification and money making, those that haven't become big heads in the scene of ITM, though play fantastic music......I wonder........
# Posted on November 5th 2007 by tombo
Re: Is Riverdance Rubbish??? Should it be posted here ?
I never did say it was bad, just that it's not so much an ITM tune. Or, more like not much of a session tune, though it'd be neat to hear.
# Posted on November 5th 2007 by JosephofCK
Re: Is Riverdance Rubbish??? Should it be posted here ?
It does n't suprise me that people on this site can pick faults with an All Ireland Flute champion.
# Posted on November 5th 2007 by Saint
Re: Is Riverdance Rubbish??? Should it be posted here ?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jCWw27UqvCQ
bodhran and flute at a riverdance show it does n't get more traditional than that..........Pick faults at will.
# Posted on November 5th 2007 by Saint
Re: Is Riverdance Rubbish??? Should it be posted here ?
nothing wrong with Flatley, he's a great dancer and he can play the flute quite well, he's no Matt Molloy but then who is?!! I don't begrudge him or Whelan or Jean Butler or anyone else involved in Riverdance their success, I just don't think it's got much to do with traditional Irish music and take issue with anyone saying it's part of the tradition.
It's an off-shoot of the tradition, it was influenced by the tradition but it's got as much to do with the tradition as The Corrs or Celtic Woman...i.e. it's a big commercial by-product. By the way am I the only one who thinks the music is a bit..... cheesey?!! The arrangements are so full of syrup its enough to put you off sugar..........
# Posted on November 5th 2007 by Worldwide Pants
Re: Is Riverdance Rubbish??? Should it be posted here ?
totally agree with you frisbee!!! at least there are some sane people on this site with an understanding of what ITM is!
# Posted on November 5th 2007 by tombo
Re: Is Riverdance Rubbish??? Should it be posted here ?
I am not so sure tombo. I hold to the belief that a tradition is the handing down of legends, customs, information, music etc., from generation to generation, particularly by word of mouth or by practice. Now you purists out ther may not like it, but I still hold that in 200 years time Riverdance (just like U2) is likely to be part of that tradition. The very essence and beauty of traditional music is its innate ability to evolve.
# Posted on November 5th 2007 by Welshman
Re: Is Riverdance Rubbish??? Should it be posted here ?
ah welshman!!! you logic is to say the least devoid of all understanding of what traditional music is all about. To even suggest that River dance, let alone U2 could have any influence on ITM is to whole heartedly insult the very underpinning of what ITM is. You cannot possible try to suggest that Riverdance can contribute anything to ITM, if you do you are certainly the most ignorant person i have come across!!! But as they all say you are entilted to your opinion.
My mind is still bogling, to think that Riverdance is going to be part of the tradition......what a load of bloody rot!!!
# Posted on November 5th 2007 by tombo
Re: Is Riverdance Rubbish??? Should it be posted here ?
To go on welshman, ITM in your opinion has not made it out to the greater community? I live in Australia and have no irish heritage at all, yet seem to have developed a love for the tradition as a whole and ITM is my passion. Riverdance never gave that to me, i was playing it way before the world was bopping to the egotistical carry on of michael flatfoot! i think you underestimate the power of a tradition steaped in more than the whim of some idiot that decided to compose a few tunes with some slight influence of the irish music. You forget that even through out the bloody history of the british occupying ireland the tradition survived, throughout the famine the tradition survived, and even now with all the mediocre, half arsed attempts to write "original"tunes or playing something that the ignorant masses enjoy the tradition survives with those that understand that real ITM doesn't need to reach the masses through mass produced jumped up multimedia driven shows. The tradition doesn't need riverdance, its musicians like you that need riverdance to inflate you own self importance!
# Posted on November 5th 2007 by tombo
Re: Is Riverdance Rubbish??? Should it be posted here ?
sorry for the tone i should have left it up to frisbee, totally on the money, no more need to be said really. Hup to all choon players, enjoy ITM for what it really is and leave the popular crap to those that like the raz ma taz! peace and love
# Posted on November 5th 2007 by tombo
Re: Is Riverdance Rubbish??? Should it be posted here ?
Welshman,
I don't really understand how you can say that U2 or Riverdance will one day be considered part of Irish TRADITIONAL music. Perhaps some broad classification of Irish music, okay, yes, probably, I suppose. Sure... and why not the music from the Commitments too and all that, really. But Irish traditional music?
It's not as if ITM has always been the only type of music played in Ireland, or even as if it is some sort of grand sum of all the types of music that have ever been played in Ireland. Historically there have been all sorts of different types of music played in Ireland... even very long ago. There were different types of music for different classes even. There was music arriving off the continent (which surely influenced ITM, just as a poppy sound influences some ITM today). But that doesn't mean that it *became* ITM... or that music historians would look back and say... "Irish people played that tune from such-and-such-a-place, therefore it is ITM". They would have to recognize that it is not ITM, but a tune from such-and-such-a-place.
I think there is an important distinction to be made between *music played by Irish people* and *Irish traditional music*. U2 and all that has NOTHING to do with ITM. Nothing. But yes, it is played by, created by, Irish people. It is from a different aspect of Irish society if you like, not part of a folk tradition. Riverdance is also not part of that tradition, just as songs such by stage Oirish people in the late 1800s aren't a part of the tradition today.
# Posted on November 5th 2007 by gretchen
Re: Is Riverdance Rubbish??? Should it be posted here ?
As someone who was given the chance to travel the world and play by the phenomenon that Flatley started i have always advocated that it was a good thing for young Irish people and those of our diaspora.
I do not deny that it is not the 'purest' form of our tradition (whatever that means?) but everything needs tweaked before exposed to a mass audience.
Take Chinese food for example? I don't know what it is like elsewhere but in Ireland & England we have 'Chinese' food that people from China wouldn't give to their dog. It is full of sugar and Monosodiumglutamate to make it palatable for westerners. Don't get me wrong... i love it, but i can also accept that it needed tweaked for a foreign audience.
Riverdance is a show loved my millions of people around the world. Get over it.
# Posted on November 5th 2007 by jfiddlerh
Re: Is Riverdance Rubbish??? Should it be posted here ?
The saying ITM is new................
# Posted on November 5th 2007 by Saint
Re: Is Riverdance Rubbish??? Should it be posted here ?
Tombo accuses me of not understanding the meaning of traditional music without offering an alternative, consequently I am left to assume that he has missed my point completely. I would also suggest that those who refer to ITM have a very narrow definition that should in fact be more akin to a description of Irish dance music. More specifically I would suggest that their definition is confined to music that largely only includes jigs, reels, polkas, mazurkas and hornpipes. In this definition anything outside of this remit is NOT traditional. Thus only some of Planxty's material is ITM while the rest is a pleasant distraction that ultimately endangers their godhead of ITM.
Those who have argued against my analysis have yet to offer any explanation of what is meant by "traditional". I await and welcome their attempts with interest.
Finally, tombo also accuses me of trying to inflate my own self-importance. I would suggest that it is my opponents and not I who are trying to maintain an exclusive club.
D
# Posted on November 5th 2007 by Welshman
Re: Is Riverdance Rubbish??? Should it be posted here ?
If a group of consenting adults want to play a recently composed tune at their session, more power to them. And if anyone wants to add a newly composed tune to the many that are already on this website, more power to them (assuming they have the permission of the composer to do so). I enjoyed Riverdance, and think it did a good bit to make the "pie" larger for those who play traditional music, raised interest, brought in new listeners, players and dancers, made more record company available to musicians, etc.
That being said, I myself probably wouldn't play those tunes in a session, too many good authentic trad tunes to learn and play. What I enjoy in a stage show doesn't necessarily translate into something I would like to play in my local session.
# Posted on November 5th 2007 by AlBrown
Re: Is Riverdance Rubbish??? Should it be posted here ?
Tombo is an Aussie, who deigns to know all about Irish music.
I wonder if Tombo has ever been at an Irish session in Ireland.Could be quite a shock. Riverdance, being Irish Traditional music, would be the least of his/her worries. People singing Christy Moore songs about miners' strikes in the USA shouldn't unduly worry him/her. I imagine he/she could cope with the Dylan and Paul Simon numbers.
However the Gerry O'Connor "cajun" stuff would prove to be too much, and send him/her over the edge.
But what do I know living in Ireland, and going to and playing in sessions for a mere 41 years. Tombo assures me Riverdance popularised the bodhran. I didn't even know Sean O'Riada was in "Riverdance". Shows how much I know.
# Posted on November 5th 2007 by bodhran bliss
Re: Is Riverdance Rubbish??? Should it be posted here ?
Tombo, you've been told what's what by a bodhran player. How do you feel now? It's almost like being told how to play Irish music by a 3-year old, isn't it? Kind of like endearing and hilariously funny at the same time
# Posted on November 5th 2007 by Dow
Re: Is Riverdance Rubbish??? Should it be posted here ?
Those big drums in riverdance are not bodhrans .If river dance phoned any of us up to play I wonder who would say no.Bliss I remember last year when you were playing sessions for 40 years.I have a triangle does this mean I'm a rebel.
# Posted on November 5th 2007 by Saint
Re: Is Riverdance Rubbish??? Should it be posted here ?
Dow I'm afraid to comment in case I hurt your feelings again.
# Posted on November 5th 2007 by Saint
Re: Is Riverdance Rubbish??? Should it be posted here ?
Remember the majority of Irish people believe that Irish folk songs are the traditonal music of Ireland and when they say they love traditional music they are talking about Christy Moores songs and the Wolfe Tones songs.
# Posted on November 5th 2007 by Saint
Re: Is Riverdance Rubbish??? Should it be posted here ?
Lollypolly wote:
<I hope he doesnt do to Flute playing what he did to Irish Dancing. Fake wigs and loadsa make up>
I think you will find those were actually genuine wigs.
- Chris
# Posted on November 5th 2007 by ramblingpitchfork
Re: Is Riverdance Rubbish??? Should it be posted here ?
I know he wore loadsa makeup, but did Flatley wear a wig?
# Posted on November 5th 2007 by grego
Re: Is Riverdance Rubbish??? Should it be posted here ?
It got me wondering where the curly hair thing did come from in Irish dance competitions. Googling it pointed me to MidwestIrish.com which says:
"During the '20s and '30s, competitions were often held on Sunday after Mass. The girls competed in their Sunday best, and had their hair in curls as current fashion demanded. Since then, curls have been tradition."
As someone who has been through the nightmare of curling his daughter's hair for a competition, I'm all in favour of "fake" wigs. Interesting, though, to see it was the people from the wacky '20s and 30's that foisted the whole thing on us, not modern excess.
# Posted on November 5th 2007 by grego
Re: Is Riverdance Rubbish??? Should it be posted here ?
I meant wigs and make up ok. oppps
I never said he was bad either, the thread just went that way but just imagine at your local session, you look past the backers and onto the melody players only to see them all sitting there with big curly wigs and so much fake tan they look like oompa lumpa's.
It would be quiet funny.
# Posted on November 5th 2007 by Lollypoll
Re: Is Riverdance Rubbish??? Should it be posted here ?
Lambeg drums and such on Riverdance from Roy and the boys from Derry, although Roy himself might use the prefix London.
I am deeply hurt Dow. I thought I could cope with jealousy, but sometimes my defences slip.
# Posted on November 5th 2007 by bodhran bliss
Re: Is Riverdance Rubbish??? Should it be posted here ?
# Posted on November 6th 2007 by tombo
Re: Is Riverdance Rubbish??? Should it be posted here ?
After reading some of his stuff....I've come to the conclusion that Mr Tombo is a wee bit of a snob, and only he and his select little bunch of musical all stars are the only ones that can play and really appreciate Irish Trad....to me his comment about the "ignorant masses" bears that out.....anal stuff,to be sure...
In the words of some past genius "I may not know art,but I know what I like"....
More power to the ignorant masses.....sign me up.....
# Posted on November 6th 2007 by zoukboy
Re: Is Riverdance Rubbish??? Should it be posted here ?
Sign me up for tombo's session please. Down with McTrad.
Talking about McTrad, you Riverdance lovers are like the waste left over after millions eat their Big Mac Meals - all those dirty paper bags and plastic containers and drinks bottles and sauce packets. You are to trad what that waste is to the environment.
# Posted on November 6th 2007 by Dow
Re: Is Riverdance Rubbish??? Should it be posted here ?
Bodhran players are like the bout of food poisoning you get after eating a bad burger.
# Posted on November 6th 2007 by Dow
Re: Is Riverdance Rubbish??? Should it be posted here ?
Tombo, given your knowledge of Irish music you would probably be amazed at my mandolin playing. Probably my whistle playing as well.
The crux of this debate to me was someone, I believe Dow, mentioning "session tunes", implying that these had to be specifically written, rather than writing tunes for a show. Irish tunes are Irish tunes.
And if we want to be pedantic about it, most of the tunes played at sessions were written for dancing to. Luckily we can fall back upon the Dylan numbers.
As for being jealous of the attention that bodhran players command, get over it. Just because you spent years learning tunes not to be appreciated by ignorent punters is no excuse for picking upon the darlings of the punters, the bodhran players.
Finally my dear Tombo, I doubt if you would be advanced enough to be amazed at my bodhran playing.
PS: Saint, Different Drums, the boys on Riverdance also use bodhrans made by Eamon Maguire from Belfast.
# Posted on November 6th 2007 by bodhran bliss
Re: Is Riverdance Rubbish??? Should it be posted here ?
Yeah I agree. Tombo probably wouldn't be amazed at your bodhran playing. Oh well. Maybe you should concentrate on your mandolin and whistle more.
# Posted on November 6th 2007 by Dow
Re: Is Riverdance Rubbish??? Should it be posted here ?
Hear hear dow!! we will just go on playing tunes and enjoying ITM while those that like stuffing up a tradition can go on playing riverdance music and the likes. If that makes us snobs then so be it!!!
BB you bodhran players are always so sensitive about your instrument, maybe it is because the majority of you really do stuff up a great session and only play it because you can't play any other instrument well. Question my playing and understanding if you must, you keep beating that goat skin and i wil keep playing tunes 
Riverdance is crap always will be and will never survive the test of time!
# Posted on November 6th 2007 by tombo
Re: Is Riverdance Rubbish??? Should it be posted here ?
Say what you like about Riverdance,love it or hate it ....and stick pins in " Riverdance Lover" dolls ,but there's one thing,and this is the very bottom line here,Riverdance introduced a whole lot of people to Irish Music and Irish Culture........and THATS GOT TO BE A GOOD THING.....
# Posted on November 6th 2007 by zoukboy
Re: Is Riverdance Rubbish??? Should it be posted here ?
Would you introduce someone to Western food by taking them out to McDonald's?
# Posted on November 6th 2007 by Dow
Re: Is Riverdance Rubbish??? Should it be posted here ?
A whole lot of people across the world have been introduced to McDonald's and now regularly eat there, so, um, that's got to be a good thing, right? ',: -/
I'm not saying your logic is necessarily flawed, Zoukboy. Just that this depends to a large extent on your values and your general world view, particularly with respect to the value of cultural heritage. For me personally, it's about quality, not quantity.
# Posted on November 6th 2007 by Dow
Re: Is Riverdance Rubbish??? Should it be posted here ?
Bottom line is it introduced a lot of people to what they thought was ITM. as Dow said its all about cultural respect to a tradition and heritage. It is quite clear that Zoukboy you have a different value system and view of what is ITM and what you would allow in to the tradition that you participate in. Just because the masses like it doesn't make it right!
# Posted on November 6th 2007 by tombo
Re: Is Riverdance Rubbish??? Should it be posted here ?
Tombo and Dow would you care to specifcally define what you see as ITM? Also, given your aggressive rhetoric how does your analysis differ from the Hitlerian pursuit of burning books because they did not conform to their requirements.
# Posted on November 6th 2007 by Welshman
Re: Is Riverdance Rubbish??? Should it be posted here ?
Godwin's. You lose!
# Posted on November 6th 2007 by Dow
Re: Is Riverdance Rubbish??? Should it be posted here ?
# Posted on November 6th 2007 by tombo
Re: Is Riverdance Rubbish??? Should it be posted here ?
Tombo - read the earlier message. I never suggested you learn ITM from books, I simply likened your attitude to the behaviour of the fascists. Your inability to answer would seem to confirm it.
# Posted on November 6th 2007 by Welshman
Re: Is Riverdance Rubbish??? Should it be posted here ?
Welshman, I was replying tongue in cheak
Call me a fascist if you like, just don't like hearing the truth about crap like Riverdance i think!
# Posted on November 6th 2007 by tombo
Re: Is Riverdance Rubbish??? Should it be posted here ?
I would agree, Riverdance is crap, but it is Irish traditional music. I think Gerry O'Connor is crap, and I always hated Stockton's Wing, but these people played Irish music. It is a matter of personal taste.
Unless you are an Aussie with ideas of what Irish music should be. If you are unfortunate enough to fall into that category, well, as I said, you are unfortunate.
By the way Dow, having mastered whistle and mandolin, I decided to try something difficult. I was never going to be the best in the world on mandolin, which is good for airs but crap for tunes, or the whistle. So I took up the bodhran, the rest is history. Although how I managed to do this 20 years before Riverdance invented Bodhrans, I am not sure. I would need to ask Tombo, the all knowing one.
The fact that he cannot distinguish between a lambeg and a bodhran does not deter me.
# Posted on November 6th 2007 by bodhran bliss
Re: Is Riverdance Rubbish??? Should it be posted here ?
"Unless you are an Aussie with ideas of what Irish music should be. If you are unfortunate enough to fall into that category, well, as I said, you are unfortunate."
I love it.
# Posted on November 6th 2007 by Hugo Chavez
Re: Is Riverdance Rubbish??? Should it be posted here ?
Yes, it's a matter of personal taste whether to like it or not. But I don't know how you can possibly argue that Riverdance is traditional Irish music. To say so is kind of, well, ridiculous. Sorry.
# Posted on November 6th 2007 by Dow
Re: Is Riverdance Rubbish??? Should it be posted here ?
Dancing to tunes? You can't get more traditional than that.
Perhaps a bit of the history of the tradition would not go amiss here.
# Posted on November 6th 2007 by bodhran bliss
Re: Is Riverdance Rubbish??? Should it be posted here ?
How is dancing to an Eastern European rhythm in some weird time signature in any sense "traditional Irish dancing"?
# Posted on November 6th 2007 by Dow
Re: Is Riverdance Rubbish??? Should it be posted here ?
By the way,it's 'O Riada' not 'O Riarda'.
# Posted on November 6th 2007 by TradChic
Re: Is Riverdance Rubbish??? Should it be posted here ?
Riverdance will eventually be viewed in the same light as Paddy in his leprechaun outfit singing “Danny Boy” on Vaudeville was; fondly by some and with scorn by others, but basically a cartooned up version of the tradition Broadwayed for popularity’s sake into a profit-making machine.
I still haven't watched it, but Jean Butler does make me testosterone percolate.
# Posted on November 6th 2007 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Is Riverdance Rubbish??? Should it be posted here ?
The Ignorance……………
The Arrogance………….
And
The Irrelevance …………….
Of some people here makes me wonder if I’m in the right forum or not. :(
Slán
# Posted on November 6th 2007 by Enigma
Re: Is Riverdance Rubbish??? Should it be posted here ?
SWFL Fiddler whats "Danny Boy" got to do with Irish?
Wasn't it written by an English man ( I'll give you his name if you don't know it
)
Slán from a man that loves the Derry Air !!
# Posted on November 6th 2007 by Enigma
Re: Is Riverdance Rubbish??? Should it be posted here ?
My introduction to RD and Michael Flatley might help to put things in perspective. Flatley first:
He opened for Battlefield Band, billed as a flute player (my instrument). He also danced. This was before RD. I thought he was full of himself as a dancer, and only marginal as a flute player. Had no preconceived notions, as I had never heard of him, so my reactions were not biased. I think the subsequent ego thing with Flatley has colored people's take on RD, which is unfair.
My introduction to RD was when I was shown a video of the original seven-minute Eurovison Contest performance that spawned the show. I recognized Flatley, and liked him much better in this than in his "flute" performance. When I heard it was to become a show, I thought one seven-minute number does not a full evening of theatre make. I was wrong. It was as good a theatre experience as I have ever attended, and I've attended many. If it's not your cup of tea, I have no issue, but to denigrate it is just silly. Dance shows are not the stuff of a hot Broadway show, no matter how much you tart it up. The only way a show like this would ever survive, much less be the success it has been, is if it has something truly wonderful to offer.
Now, does the music of RD belong here? Or at a session? Probably not. Even the tunes that are pretty traditional in sound are not session tunes. I have learned to play some for my own pleasure, because some of it is good on flute, and all of it is damn fine, IMO. It's not traditional, nor was it intended to be. I think Eileen Ivers' solo and the pipe solo deserve special mention as great Irish music.
So Riverdance certainly is not rubbish, but it also isn't something it never claimed to be: A collection of traditional Irish tunes. If anyone has a problem with that, the person in question must have a very narrow mind, indeed.
# Posted on November 6th 2007 by Ailin
Re: Is Riverdance Rubbish??? Should it be posted here ?
Was the wig question ever resolved?
Wearing one would certainly bring a baroque flavour to the music, but what if it slipped off?- owner scrabbling to get it off the floor, dancers doing the splits, dogs rushing round stage trying to catch it- mayhem.
Surely there's a European directive against wearing them while playing Irish music- Health and Safety.
# Posted on November 6th 2007 by P-K
Re: Is Riverdance Rubbish??? Should it be posted here ?
Absolutely nothing Enigma, my point exactly, just like a Broadway show... (LOL!)
# Posted on November 6th 2007 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Is Riverdance Rubbish??? Should it be posted here ?
BB the fun never wears off getting you worked up about how good bodhrans are!
Lighten up you might burst a valve and then you will have a hard time beating that drum! Anyway if you call Riverdance Traditional Irish Music you really don't have a clue!
# Posted on November 7th 2007 by tombo
Re: Is Riverdance Rubbish??? Should it be posted here ?
Oh by the way BB does being a morris dancer make you an authority on ITM????? A bit like the pot calling the kettle black I think!
# Posted on November 7th 2007 by tombo
Re: Is Riverdance Rubbish??? Should it be posted here ?
Dow.....one could argue that McDonalds IS Western food....judging by the amount of their shops around the world....and I fail to see the connection between Mcsh*te and Irish Trad....
I dont think that the producers of Riverdance set out to introduce people to Irish Trad.......I think their idea was was to produce a show that people liked and to make money...They've had great success on both fronts...
And to Mr Tombo.....I'd say that the people who thought that this is Traditional Music.........after a while, would realise that it's not,and go a bit deeper..........I did ,and realised what agreat tradition it is..........AND.........your phrase "what you would ALLOW into the tradition" ....who are these people that ALLOW some stuff and not other stuff ???.... The Tradition Police.....a good job for you Mr Tombo.....
Nuff said for me I reckon........
# Posted on November 7th 2007 by zoukboy
Re: Is Riverdance Rubbish??? Should it be posted here ?
How is dancing to an Eastern European rhythm in some weird time signature in any sense "traditional Irish dancing"?
# Posted on November 6th 2007 by Dow
Flatley may be an absolute rectum perforation but he can do Irish dancing. So could Jean whatever. So Irish dancing to tunes, that's the tradition.
Now if you happen to believe that Irish tunes should be restricted to some set pattern, rhythm, rules and policing, well, then you have a problem, and underestimate and fail to understand the creativity and joie de vivre that the Irish possess. Indeed, perhaps it is a failure to understand the Irish, and attempts to categorise them, that causes much of the problem on the board.
On the same theme, categorizing and showing limited imagination,
Oh by the way BB does being a morris dancer make you an authority on ITM????? A bit like the pot calling the kettle black I think!
# Posted on November 7th 2007 by tombo
Did it never strike you, in your wildest imagination, that the Musicians who play for the Morris dancers, may just be able to play something else? Perhaps your imagination is limited, and everyone and thing has to fit into a neat little box. Morris Dancers "Garryowen and a few other tunes". ITM, "a few select tunes that I Tombo consider to be the genre" and that's it.?
I enjoyed some great sessions all over England at Morris festivals. Like the best sessions it was mostly Irish, Scottish tunes as well, and the odd set of Lancashire tunes thrown in as well. Wonderful happy times, before Johnny come Lately "traditionalists" decided to label everything. And I was a North West cl;og Morris Dancer, even morris dancing doesn't fall into a set neat little box, my dear Tombo.
As for "how good bodhrans are" I have always said "I am absolutely amazingly good on my main instrument, albeit a humble bodhran." It is merely a simple backing instrument. But one that enables you to play all over the world, with a "Who's who" of Irish traditional musicians, people like O'Flynn, Molloy, Hastings, Hannan, Kevin Burke,Spillane, Peoples, none of whom I am glad to report feel that Irish music is limited, and strictly structured, and are happy to play all sorts of tunes.
But what would they know? Poor wandering lost souls, ploughing a lonely trail through life, unaware of the rules and regulations of Irish music, as defined by those from other nations and cultures.
We can but pity them.
# Posted on November 7th 2007 by bodhran bliss
Re: Is Riverdance Rubbish??? Should it be posted here ?
Irish people are open to all cultures thats what make us Irish we embrace all no matter what creed or colour .The music is the same no rules written in stone.Maybe some of ye should read the Irish proclaimation to get an Idea what Irishness is .There are so many people from different parts of the world now living in Ireland and they concider themselves now as Irish people, soon they will have an Influnce on how "ITM" is played and thats just how it is.
# Posted on November 7th 2007 by Saint
Re: Is Riverdance Rubbish??? Should it be posted here ?
I hear the ring of bells, stomping of boots and the banging of sticks! Its the morris men
BB you words cut deap and hard, I never ever saw myself as a Johnny Come Lately Traditionalist! Back to your dancing boyo!
# Posted on November 7th 2007 by tombo
Re: Is Riverdance Rubbish??? Should it be posted here ?
Talking about the stomping of boots - Riverdance has already affected the irish step dancing scene, from what I saw at the recent Joe Cooley weekend in Gort. While a brilliant box player was belting out tunes during a concert, the girls from a local dance school stepped out some jigs and reels to his music. Then they asked him to stop playing (which he did with good humour) and they stomped out one of those unison (i.e. nearly in unison) battering items with the dancers in lines across the stage - a Riverdance trademark. After that an old guy did some sean nos dancing to some reels and the audience enjoyed the whole thing.
PS: I'm twice tombo's age, so he'll always be the 'johnny come lately' even if he is such a bloody good player
# Posted on November 7th 2007 by dogbox
Re: Is Riverdance Rubbish??? Should it be posted here ?
"Dow.....one could argue that McDonalds IS Western food....judging by the amount of their shops around the world....and I fail to see the connection between Mcsh*te and Irish Trad...."
I'm sorry, your world view is so different to mine that I'm finding it impossible to find any common ground here. Your viewpoint and logic are totally alien to me and beyond my comprehension. I don't even know where to start in trying to discuss this with you. That is, unless you're joking and just winding me up - it's a bit difficult to tell. I hope you are...
LOL @ tombo's Morris comment - that was below the belt!
# Posted on November 7th 2007 by Dow
Re: Is Riverdance Rubbish??? Should it be posted here ?
"Now if you happen to believe that Irish tunes should be restricted to some set pattern, rhythm, rules and policing, well, then you have a problem, and underestimate and fail to understand the creativity and joie de vivre that the Irish possess. Indeed, perhaps it is a failure to understand the Irish, and attempts to categorise them, that causes much of the problem on the board."
What a bunch of ethnocentric sh*te.
# Posted on November 7th 2007 by Dow
Re: Is Riverdance Rubbish??? Should it be posted here ?
"Irish people are open to all cultures thats what make us Irish we embrace all no matter what creed or colour .The music is the same no rules written in stone.Maybe some of ye should read the Irish proclaimation to get an Idea what Irishness is .There are so many people from different parts of the world now living in Ireland and they concider themselves now as Irish people, soon they will have an Influnce on how "ITM" is played and thats just how it is."
Also ethnocentric sh*te. Some Irish people can be just as intolerant and suspicious of outsiders as anyone else.
# Posted on November 7th 2007 by Dow
Re: Is Riverdance Rubbish??? Should it be posted here ?
Dow......No mate,I'm not trying to wind you up,you're pretty good at doing that all by yourself...
My viewpoint and logic just comes from being an ordinary bloke, so I guess we'd never have a common ground....
Taking things too seriously can lead to undue stress....IMHO...
# Posted on November 7th 2007 by zoukboy
Re: Is Riverdance Rubbish??? Should it be posted here ?
If that's the case, then I'm glad I'm not an ordinary bloke. Enjoy your MaccyD's and watch that cholestrol. Yee-hah.
# Posted on November 7th 2007 by Dow
Re: Is Riverdance Rubbish??? Should it be posted here ?
ethnocentric thats a lovely word coming from a culture that tried to civilize the world.
"Some Irish people can be just as intolerant and suspicious of outsiders as anyone else."
10/10 for that comment the same way some English people can be nice people .The Irish culture will always take on board other cultures the music explains that Polkas ,Hornpipes,Reels all influenced by other cultures yet strongly identified with ITM.
# Posted on November 7th 2007 by Saint
Re: Is Riverdance Rubbish??? Should it be posted here ?
Any culture will always take on board other cultures unless they're isolated in the Amazon rainforest, devoid of contact with anyone other than their own tribe. Get real, Saint. There's no substitute for playing the real thing. Unfortunately being Irish doesn't make you automatically realise this. Oh well, your loss.
# Posted on November 7th 2007 by Dow
Re: Is Riverdance Rubbish??? Should it be posted here ?
"Taking things too seriously can lead to undue stress...."
...and hair loss,
...and alienation,
# Posted on November 7th 2007 by Hugo Chavez
Re: Is Riverdance Rubbish??? Should it be posted here ?
"There's no substitute for playing the real thing"
Whats the real thing ?
# Posted on November 7th 2007 by Saint
Re: Is Riverdance Rubbish??? Should it be posted here ?
This is the real thing http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/2940.
This is not the real thing http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/7927.
# Posted on November 7th 2007 by Dow
Re: Is Riverdance Rubbish??? Should it be posted here ?
This is the real thing http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/5867.
This is not the real thing http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/4334.
# Posted on November 7th 2007 by Dow
Re: Is Riverdance Rubbish??? Should it be posted here ?
Might I suggest, Saint, that if you put away that stoopid drum and actually learnt how to play some tunes on a musical instrument, then you'd get a feel for what the real thing is. It's great - trust me, you should try it sometime.
# Posted on November 7th 2007 by Dow
Re: Is Riverdance Rubbish??? Should it be posted here ?
it never ceases to amaze me that it is the drum players that are agruing and pontificating that Riverdance and crap like it, is ITM....my last ever word on this matter....why don't you go learn a real instrument!
# Posted on November 7th 2007 by tombo
Re: Is Riverdance Rubbish??? Should it be posted here ?
What amazes me even more is that we've been bothering to even read their comments. C'mon tombo let's go and have some tunes and leave these guys to it. We shouldn't have to be explaining to people what tunes are. Bodhran players waste enough of our precious time in sessions - don't let them ruin your online life as well.
# Posted on November 7th 2007 by Dow
Re: Is Riverdance Rubbish??? Should it be posted here ?
Dow, have a drink instead:
http://www.dows-port.com/
# Posted on November 7th 2007 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: Is Riverdance Rubbish??? Should it be posted here ?
# Posted on November 7th 2007 by tombo
Re: Is Riverdance Rubbish??? Should it be posted here ?
....HAHAHA
This is classic..
Right....again...
"Jesus Christ - get a room."
The schoolyard bullies are back.
# Posted on November 7th 2007 by Hugo Chavez
Re: Is Riverdance Rubbish??? Should it be posted here ?
Skin and bow by folan and davey is in your real list .Do you like that type of bodhran playing I didn't think you would have a bodhran cd on your list because of the way you feel about the drum.A bit of double standards there.
Tombo welcome to the six inch club.
The real world a place where Dow can bully who wants followed by his six inch club .You can have it.
# Posted on November 7th 2007 by Saint
Re: Is Riverdance Rubbish??? Should it be posted here ?
The real world.....Its not Saint -
Thats why they live across the other side of the world and speak and behave like social misfits to others about what THEY think it should be through the safety of a website...
Thus, missing the point of 'the real thing' completely.
I'm glad others over time have spotted that...you should recognise it too, and revel in it.
# Posted on November 7th 2007 by Hugo Chavez
Re: Is Riverdance Rubbish??? Should it be posted here ?
Well stuff ye's all..............I had a grand session last night and thanks to JosephofCK posting his tune I wacked it out to the delight of the crowd !!!!
Slán
# Posted on November 8th 2007 by Enigma
Re: Is Riverdance Rubbish??? Should it be posted here ?
Silly me......I thought this was music for the people.....the ordinary bloke (and sheila)...played by the people.......
I dont eat McDonalds.....
"Come on Tombo,lets go and have some tunes and leave these guys to it "....ah, may true love flourish...Dow and Tombo,a candlelight dinner and some nice wine ..playing tunes by themselves......for themselves...how sweet it is .
# Posted on November 8th 2007 by zoukboy
Re: Is Riverdance Rubbish??? Should it be posted here ?
ah zoukboy you are so witty
maybe you can come and play your tunes for our dinner ay?! 
# Posted on November 8th 2007 by tombo
Re: Is Riverdance Rubbish??? Should it be posted here ?
Sorry Mr Tombo..I reckon It'd be a long dinner, and I dont know a real lot of tunes....
Funny thing though....This thread has gotten a bit bitchy at times....but I reckon all the posters, for and against Riverdance ,would probably get along well together...after all,we're all musicians,usually a tolerant and peaceful lot...
I'll always leap to the defence of Riverdance,the same way that you'd leap to the defence of your brother.....
As I've said before......I doubt if I ever would have came across Irish Music if it was'nt for RD..and I'm super grateful to it for that....
# Posted on November 8th 2007 by zoukboy
Re: Is Riverdance Rubbish??? Should it be posted here ?
zoukboy
Can I play at that dinner with you.
# Posted on November 8th 2007 by Saint
Re: Is Riverdance Rubbish??? Should it be posted here ?
Sure thing Saint...Strength in numbers and all that !!!
# Posted on November 8th 2007 by zoukboy
Re: Is Riverdance Rubbish??? Should it be posted here ?
Agree with you zoukboy, at the end of the day it is all about the music we all love
# Posted on November 8th 2007 by tombo
Re: Is Riverdance Rubbish??? Should it be posted here ?
Good to see we agree on something Mr.Tombo....perhaps we could agree on having a beer together at the National.....
Adios for now........
# Posted on November 8th 2007 by zoukboy
Re: Is Riverdance Rubbish??? Should it be posted here ?
Sounds like a great idea mate! we could have some tunes as well ;)
# Posted on November 8th 2007 by tombo
Re: Is Riverdance Rubbish??? Should it be posted here ?
Just as a side issue - is there really a prettier tune than King of the Fairies (which btw is IN Riverdance)?
# Posted on November 8th 2007 by Welshman
Re: Is Riverdance Rubbish??? Should it be posted here ?
yeap...boys of blue hill
# Posted on November 8th 2007 by tombo
Re: Is Riverdance Rubbish??? Should it be posted here ?
Lovely tune agreed - but right now I am obsessed with perfecting 'Fairies' .. but don't worry ... last week I was obsessed about the Ballydesmond
G-d help me next week!!!
# Posted on November 8th 2007 by Welshman
Re: Is Riverdance Rubbish??? Should it be posted here ?
King Of The Fairies is one I haven't played in a long while. It's a bit hackneyed in some areas, but not in these parts.
By saying it's in Riverdance, I assume you're trying to make a point that it follows that Riverdance is necessarily traditional, Welshman? If that's the case then I'm afraid you're simply incorrect. Traditional tunes are used in a lot of different non-traditional contexts. To give you just one example, take this tune http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display.php/1580. It was used by the Corrs on one of their albums. Surely you wouldn't say that the Corrs were Irish traditional music, or even that they played trad tunes in a traditional style?
# Posted on November 8th 2007 by Dow
Re: Is Riverdance Rubbish??? Should it be posted here ?
Actually Dow I was simply saying that to my mind 'King of the Fairies' is a lovely tune - aided and abetted by the delicious sound of uiellean pipes (an instrument that always leaves me in awe and admiration). The fact that it was in Riverdance is in this instance a side issue. If I was to be held to account I would have to say that in large part I am not especially attracted to the music content in Riverdance. For example - I have to confess to not being over-enthused with choral work and so I tend to try to skip parts where Anuna perform. However I admit to more than a teeny spine-tingle whenever the dancers are all together.
Thankfully I haven't heard the Corrs rendition of the Lark's March and as I am, shall we say not one of their greatest fans, I rather suspect that this will not change. My own listening would tend to be more dominated by traditional musicians from all over the world.
In answer to your question I would personally argue (although I ahve not heard a lot of their material) that the Corrs do not play in a traditional style (as I understand it). However you ask a far more intersting question that could require a theisis - and that is .. are the Corrs Irish traditional music? Here I would suggest we would need to precisely define what is traditional music and this I would argue has been at the crux of our debate.
On a separate note - thanks for introducing me to the Lark's March .. now I know what next week's obsession will be!!!!!
# Posted on November 8th 2007 by Welshman
Re: Is Riverdance Rubbish??? Should it be posted here ?
well well! Thanks for the links, fair dues to matt and micheal, lovely duet.
And i liked his masons apron too, great stuff .
Its easy to criticize from the sidelines.
# Posted on November 8th 2007 by jig
Re: Is Riverdance Rubbish??? Should it be posted here ?
Mmm, yeah. It's a difficult one. Definitely one for a thesis. We've had that debate here a number if times here, and the only conclusion we've reached is along the lines of "it's traditional if we as a community say it is". Most, if not all of us would agree that the Corrs isn't trad music. With other things it gets a bit blurred though. The only thing I would say is that the more experience you have of a particular tradition, through immersion in it, the more likely you are to be able to make a sound judgement on whether something belongs to that tradition or not. Of course it's subjective, but I'd say that someone who has been playing in weekly sessions for 30 or 40 years would have a fuller picture of what the tradition is about than a newbie with 10 tunes who's only been playing less than a year, for example.
# Posted on November 8th 2007 by Dow
Re: Is Riverdance Rubbish??? Should it be posted here ?
Ok but there are a lot of young and gifted muso's who are stretching these foundries, incorporating weird rhythms etc.
THe old guard may shudder at the thought; it has to be done this way ! We might think its up to 'us' as a community , but who is us?
# Posted on November 8th 2007 by jig
Re: Is Riverdance Rubbish??? Should it be posted here ?
I've been playing near on 40 years on average 3-4 hours a day.......where does that put me ?
Don't answer anyone my kids already tell me on a daily basis.....
Slán
# Posted on November 8th 2007 by Enigma
Re: Is Riverdance Rubbish??? Should it be posted here ?
I always like to observe how generous a lot of the real Irish people on this site are about someone having success. Its also reflected in their support for sport etc.
All the tight arse stuff about tradition seems to come from other places. Like someone from the north of Australia making references to Brit occupation of Ireland through history. ( Double Cringe), like they really understand and sympathise.
Whelan did what he liked with the music, he should be able to,
he's the real deal. I'm sure his countrymen congratulate him and hope he does it again.
# Posted on November 9th 2007 by chuneboi slim
Re: Is Riverdance Rubbish??? Should it be posted here ?
Actually Chuneboi slim, I can sympathise with the Irish as the British did exactly the same thing to the Aboriginals of Australia, so before you going accusing other people of not understanding, why don't you learn a bit of history!
# Posted on November 9th 2007 by tombo
Re: Is Riverdance Rubbish??? Should it be posted here ?
Oh double cringe to you chuneboi slim, you live in brisbane and can't see that we can sympathise with the irish over the british occupation?!!!! maybe a one nation supporter or worse a john howard supporter, but we wont bring politics into this will we? pass on my best to kevin and marcie!
# Posted on November 9th 2007 by tombo
Re: Is Riverdance Rubbish??? Should it be posted here ?
Firstly Tombo, whoever you are, its not advisable to mention peoples names on a thread, I've found out about that the hard way. Please don't do that again because I'll be in the sh*t.
Secondly as a matter of fact if you want to find me on election day, I'll be handing out for the "your rights at work campaign" as a CFMEU volunteer. They've already asked me what sandwiches I like and what beer I prefer. I have nothing to hide.
Where will you be? Maybe I'll see you at the party after when we get our new P.M.
No sir, I am involved in my own country's past present and future. Keep the Faith Tombo.
# Posted on November 9th 2007 by chuneboi slim
Re: Is Riverdance Rubbish??? Should it be posted here ?
Whoa, you Australian dudes really go at it, eh? Whew.
On a lighter note...well I'll be. King of the Fairies is in Riverdance? I'd better watch that to see if I've accidentally learned any other tunes from there. Crap.
# Posted on November 9th 2007 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Is Riverdance Rubbish??? Should it be posted here ?
Good on ya chuneboi slim
Here is to Keeping the Faith! Raggin Raggin Red Red Raggin!!!!
# Posted on November 9th 2007 by tombo
Re: Is Riverdance Rubbish??? Should it be posted here ?
We have a resolution Tombo. After a mild tussle in the rank and file. I'm rev vin' with Kevin.
# Posted on November 9th 2007 by chuneboi slim
Re: Is Riverdance Rubbish??? Should it be posted here ?
My computer broke, just as it was getting interesting. Tombo really is Australian. I suppose someone has to be.
# Posted on November 12th 2007 by bodhran bliss
Re: Is Riverdance Rubbish??? Should it be posted here ?
yeah BB and proud of it! Hows your morris dancing going by the way? been banging some sticks and shaking those bells lately.......
# Posted on November 16th 2007 by tombo
Re: Is Riverdance Rubbish??? Should it be posted here ?
Could someone please post the notes for the actual song Riverdance
# Posted on June 21st 2008 by jesusman