Ive been playing just over a year and I think its time I got a new bow, whats your thoughts on buying a bow, what do you look for and how can you judge whether or not its a good one?
Get some advice from your teacher, or an experienced fiddle player. Bows are a little personal, and you'll want someone that knows your playing to help you pick one out. How you use the bow is going to change a lot in the next several years, and you'll want one that's going to be just as good for you then as now.
That's a difficult one. It's good that you're looking to trade up your bow, it's easy to overlook how important the bow is.
Is there a shop nearby where you can go and try out some bows? That's your best bet. Taking a teacher or fiddler friend along is a good idea too.
Although I don't have one, I've heard a lot of good things about the carbon fiber (graphite) bows. They seem to be very good for the money, and might be a safe bet if you aren't sure of what to get.
As for how to tell if a bow is a good one...well if it's wooden, has a name stamped on it, and costs way more than you can afford, it's probably a good one. Otherwise you need experience to sort out which bows are quality. That's why I think the carbon fibre ones may be a safe bet, you know what you're getting.
I found that I had to try a lot of different bows and see how they felt. It's a very individual thing---it depends on your playing style and your fiddle. Just recently I tried playing with a $3000 bow, thinking that it would blow away my bow, but I didn't even like it as much---it was a much stiffer bow meant for classical playing where you really have to dig into the strings. Whereas for our kind of music, you need something with a little spring that tracks well---we do lots of string crossing and short bow strokes.
The other thing I found is important is after you narrow it down to two or three, take them all home with you and play them for a week (any reputable shop will let you sign an insurance waiver for this). It takes a while to get a feel for what works the best. That way you can also have your teacher and any other good players try them out and tell you their opinion.
Oh, another thing---pay attention to the condition of the bows and when they were last rehaired. One bow I looked at was way too mushy and I had to bring it back for a rehair before I could evaluate it properly. Again, if you're dealing with a good shop, they shouldn't mind doing this because they're going to have to do it at some point anyway, so don't be shy about asking.
A violinmaker told me that if you bounce the tip of the bow against the palm of your left hand, a good bow will have a "ping" or liveliness to it that a bad bow does not. At least that's what he said--I wasn't sure I could tell any difference that way.
The only thing to do is play a bunch of them for comparison, and pick the one that feels best (and that you can afford).
Another test of the liveliness of a bow is if you can feel the sound vibration of the strings through the stick. The problem here is that a beginner, almost by definition, wouldn't yet have the bowing technique to do this.
I look for an octagonal bow. A Bowyer first cuts this octagonal form, then rounds it off to balance it out. An octagonal bow indicates a mature craftsman who got it right first time.
Octagonal vs. round is a personal thing...the round bows tend to be more flexible. I don't think you can say that either is superior, though you might be right that a good octagonal stick is harder to make well.
round vs octagonal depends on the grain of the pernambuco and what the experienced bowmaker thinks will make a better bow..there are a lot of generalizations about round vs octagonal bows...all round bows are not octagonal rejects
but I concur with Lazyhound...after I had been playing for a year I did not have the skills necessary to pick out a decent bow...chances are, you will just end up wanting something different in another year..
but for great bows that are affordable, I really like the Arcos Brasil bowmakers, especially Chagis and M. Pereira. THeir silver mount bows will probably start at around 700 and there are some limited edition bows of theirs at around 1200..Pereira has some gold mounted bows at around 2200.
I look for a completely balanced stick, something that doesn't shake when you get near the tip, and isn't unwieldy near the frog. Right now I'm playing one of those new hybrid bows: wood stick with a carbon fiber core. Amazing thing, it is. Great tone throughout the entire length of the stick and no wobbles. It's a Finckle/Finkle (sp?) and I love it. I use it for classical as well as fiddle and it works well for both.
screetch, i didnt say an octagonal bow is harder to make well, i dont know. I was asked what i look for in a bow.
What i mean is that the bow maker cuts the octagonal form first. If that then is considered by the maker to be good they will leave it as it is. I have made good money in the past using this as my basic guide, Obviously a renowned maker is your best bet.
But if you are stuck with little money, and not so much choice .......
I have a couple of carbon fiber bows as well, ok, but if you want a good bow it will cost you, unless you are lucky,
I still prefer my first bow, I bought at fiddlesticks in Camden town many years ago. I suppose it is a matter of familiarity, and although i could play with my girlfriends bow which is worth a grand or so ,and a lovely, quality bow ,I dont.
Get used to the gear you have is my philosophy .
The bow is half the instrument and a good one will last a lifetime.
update. just bought a high tension incredibow.
Await with interest.
"What i mean is that the bow maker cuts the octagonal form first. If that then is considered by the maker to be good they will leave it as it is."
That's not true at all. Most fine sticks are made round by choice, not because the bow make didn't get it right the first time. Octaganal sticks are in the minority, even at the highest price points.
And by the way, I know that all bows start out octagonal. But the end product is a decision, not to due it being "right" by the rough shaping.
If the stick is octagonal as the end product, it's no because the initial shaping was perfect. It's because the bow maker decided to make it octagonal, and so the final shaping was done that way instead of rounding it.
I seriously doubt that any bow maker worth his salt goes with an octagonal stick because the initial shaping is somehow perfect. That's not where octagonal sticks come from. It's just a decision on the part of the bow maker, and has no bearing on quality.
You seem very sure screetch.
I am just repeating what i was taught. It makes sense to me, A master makes the cuts. Finished.
If you consider the Zen approach to a fine art you will see that the master just makes the cut, takes the shot, not a conscious decision, rather like a cat jumps, its here.... its there.
Now you may disagree but i would ask what makes you so sure?
The idea that octagonal bows are better because they are perfect at the initial shaping is a myth. I've heard it before. I've been playing violin for 24 years and I've played with a lot of bows.
If octagonal bows are the best, then why are most sticks round, even at the high end? Wouldn't the octagonal bows dominate the high end if they are the mark of superior craftsmanship?
And the point I was really trying to make is that the octagonal sticks are shaped that way at the final finishing...there's no reason to assume that they were that way at the initial shaping.
Just because the stick is octagonal does not mean that it was perfect on the first cut.
nobody said they were the best. The way I heard it is simply that they are first cut octagonal (you don't doubt that) and filed/ground/sanded down until the maker decides enough is enough. Sometimes the maker decides enough is enough sooner than later.
That's fair enough. And I'lll grant that an octagonal stick *might* be the mark of a better bow, but you can't go by that alone. Round sticks can be superior. It's not a good criteron to judge a bow on, IMHO.
Well i presume that even a master is going to only get one out of 10 right first time....
Each maker will make good bows and great bows, as well as the rest. Each one is unique. It comes down to the judgement of the craftsman as to whether the bow is ok at the first cut, a middling maker may make a middling oct bow and be done with it, a master may make a good octagonal bow and work it till its a great round bow. I suggest that its the maker that is the most important factor, along with the wood. A good makers bow is what you want, He will judge each bow according to his standards and price it accordingly.
Whether it is oct or round..... is not relevant.
However if any craftsman makes a bow , and leaves it oct, that to my mind suggests confidence in his own art.
I make no claim to be an expert in this field, however i have met more than a few, . I certainly didn't hear this theory from a layman.
I remember reading somewhere that the cut depends on the quality and density of the wood, as well as the kind of bow the maker wants to produce---that an octagonal lends stiffness to the bow, so it can help with wood that isn't so stiff to start with, or make an extra-stiff bow if that's what the maker wants. Likewise with the round cuts. It's pretty amazing what an art there is to bowmaking, when to the untrained eye it just looks like an ordinary stick of wood.
Michael, jig said "An octagonal bow indicates a mature craftsman who got it right first time."---which implies, what, that a round bow indicates a lesser craftsman who had to tinker with a badly cut bow? That's how I read it...
"I look for an octagonal bow. A Bowyer first cuts this octagonal form, then rounds it off to balance it out. An octagonal bow indicates a mature craftsman who got it right first time."
Or is it that the octagonal bow means a better craftsman rather than a better bow? In that case I get the point. But I still see it as a useless criterion for evaluating a bow.
This is all academic and will only confuse the original poster, I suggest we drop it. It isn't helpful for someone looking for a new bow after one year of playing.
A basic engineering principle when working with materials is that cracks, defects, and weaknesses tend to propagate from an edge or corner. An octagonal bow has eight edges; it is also made from a material (wood) that is not isotropic and is not homogeneous. A circular cross-section would therefore seem to be preferable from the point of view of overall strength.
A good bow vibrates in response to the vibration of the string being played (as I mentioned in a previous post), and in turn interacts with the vibration of the string – a very complex system to analyse. I think the nature of the sound vibrations within the bow would depend in part on the shape of the bow's cross-section and would affect the sound produced by the violin – perhaps not dramatically, but enough to be noticed in some circumstances. Considerations of symmetry suggest to me that a circular cross-section would be better for optimal sound.
>>But I still see it as a useless criterion for evaluating a bow.<
, Well i made several hundred pounds on one bow because of this information, i bought the fiddle and bow for 30 the bow was later valued at 350-500. so it was not useless info!
There are so many factors inherant in choosing a bow, my suggestion was merely one of those.
Ever seen a cheap octagonal Chinese bow?
If you go for a carbon-fibre bow (which, in my opinion, are generally an excellent choice for session and gig playing - and orchestral work) be aware that they, like wood bows, do vary in quality. Some of the very cheap ones would only be useful in the potting shed; but there are c-f bows up round the £2000 mark, and at that level you'd be thinking in terms of playing as an international soloist. As a very rough rule of thumb I'd say that a c-f bow would be about half the price of an equivalent pernambuco wood bow.
No two bows, c-f or wood, will give exactly the same response, or feel the same. Some will give a bigger sound than others. Some bows will feel very light and fast, even though they may be the same weight as a slower bow – this sort of difference may be due to things such as balance, resilience or stiffness. Again, some bows tend to mute the high frequencies very slightly. Even apparently identical c-f bows can feel different, balance-wise – this is often due to slight differences in the weight of the frog, which is usually not c-f but a hard wood such as ebony.
But a fundamental problem remains. As I said earlier, a beginner is unable to make clear distinctions between bows. When the player is able to do this s/he is no longer a beginner and will have several years of experience. Until then, the beginner must rely on the expertise and advice of a teacher or other reliable and experienced player when selecting a bow.
My initial post;
>>I look for an octagonal bow. A Bowyer first cuts this octagonal form, then rounds it off to balance it out. An octagonal bow indicates a mature craftsman who got it right first time.<<
Yes i suppose it relates more to the craftsman than the bow, but a mature craftsman should, according to my somewhat shaky logic, make good bows.
Not emails! Keep discussions here in the public domain. It's the only way to arrive at some useful consensus and conclusions - by input from members at all levels.
"I don't think it's useful to the origninal poster to continue it [the argument] here." How do we know? Anyway, a beginner of one year's experience isn't going to remain in that situation for very long. Many discussions here start with a simple question or statement and blossom into a detailed analysis which is ultimately of benefit to everyone.
I was able to have the luxury of choosing a fiddle and bow from a selection of high class instruments when i bought my bow and fiddle.At least in a quality establishment you can be pretty sure that whatever you get it will be good...
It's a good thing to make money by investing in bows, and shows some knowledge of what you're doing. But to invest in bows based on whether the stick is round or not is a shaky investment...
You're right that cheap Chinese bows are round and you won't get such a stick by looking or octagonal ones. But really, you kinda got lucky. If the Chinese knew we were looking a that, they'd make octagonal bows. The shape of the stick doesn't necessarily mean quality. It's perfectly possible to make a crappy bow with an octagonal stick.
But I take your point that an octagonal stick may mean better quality because bad bows aren't generally made that way. But that's not because octagonal sticks are better in any general way.
Yeah and though it was the octagonal nature that first alerted me i probably looked closer and found other points of interest, like balance, weight, the grain of the wood.....
Yeah i got lucky, though it wasn't 'just' luck!
I know that it wasn't just luck, I'm sure that you looked at more than just the shape of the stick, otherwise you wouldn't have been able to tell the good ones you bought from the plethora of bad round sticks.
My point is just that the shape of the stick alone doesn't mean a good bow.
Thanks guys, to be honest I was only gone to spend £100. Just something a bit better than the £20 one I have at the moment to do me for about a year or something.
Well kess, you got a few pointers.
I have made inquiries with my ' bow man' and await his professional advice with interest.
I certainly have learnt a bit from this thread and im sure so have many others. It great to have this forum here.
Make sure the bow is straight. . by that I mean see that it doesnt curve to either side when you hold it in front of you. any way..play long slow notes and check theres no bounce in the stick...slow playing will highlight any irregularities...does it feel comfortable and balanced in your right hand or does it feel unwieldy? I would definitely compare as many bows as possible in your price bracket so you start to develop a feel for what kind of bow suits you.
I like something that i can get my thumb into the frog snugly.
Apart from that i want it to feel durable because i use far too much pressure when playing and i don't want it to break mid-tune.
Balance is important for control and good hair that gives a consistent action on the strings. As for Octagonal v round, i admit mine is an octagonal but i wouldn't include it in my criteria.
Jig - how are you getting on with the high tension incredibow - I presume this is a standard weight.
I tried a featherweight and a high tension the other day at a session. I kind of prefered the high tension at the time- it was certainly louder and had a great tone. On the other hand I don't think I played the featherweight for long enough to get used to it (and I like the idea of having a lighter weight bow in my case).
Just bought it yesterday as a result of this page and the links so....dont know yet...I will start a discussion on it when i am familiar with it so i will keep you informed.
I play quite heavy, with plenty of 'dig' as llig calls it, so i feel a heavier bow more suited to my style, I am using my 5string viola most of the time now, so await with interest the incredibow.
Isn't the octagonal shape indeed the preliminary stage before the bow stick is made round? Making round takes more time and therefore adds to the cost of the bow. Note that at the high end of wood bow-making there is a substantial wastage rate because the quality of the bow cannot be assessed properly until it is almost completed. Presumably, some of the bows that turn out not quite good enough to attract a 4-figure price tag end up in a lower price bracket.
The outcome of making a carbon-fibre bow is much more predictable, and the wastage rate is significantly lower. Couple this with a different manufacturing process and you can see why a c-f bow can have much of the playing quality of a hand-made pernambuco bow of twice the price. It's probably not until you get to the best bows (well into 4k) as used by top-level professionals that they can point out why a wood bow at that level is superior to even the best c-f bows.
Gold or silver parts, or fancy inlays, do not , and cannot, of themselves add to the playing quality of a bow, but a bowmaker may well use such things to show that a particular bow is of top playing quality and to distinguish it from the also-rans.
Note that bows (wood) are initially made straight, and then given their curvature at a later stage using heat. A bowmaker will use the heat treatment technique to correct a lateral bend in a bow or to re-curve one that's straightened a little with time. A convenient time for him to do this is when the bow is taken in for rehairing.
A slight lateral bend can happen if the hair tension becomes uneven across the width of the bow. I've got it on one of my bows but I don't notice it at all when playing. I'll get it corrected at the next re-hair.
Well lazy, i really don't think the time spent is relevant in the pricing of a high quality bow.
A bow that is rated highly by the crafts man will fetch a premium price how ever long it took him.
You would'nt expect a good bow that took 10 hours to cost more than a great bow that took 3 for example.This is one of the things gained by good training and plenty of experience ;, speed in production.
I suppose at a lower level then the maker will need to consider the hours put in , as a pricing criteria.
Jig, I doubt whether most business people would accept that the time spent in making a product is not relevant to the pricing. Especially in a hand-made product such as a fiddle wood bow where the hands-on time in making is a very large proportion of the total cost.
The British master bow-maker (aka "archetier") Brian Tunnicliffe estimates that it takes 35-40 hours to make a bass bow, about 10 hours more than it takes to make one for a fiddle. With his output to date, that works out at about 30-35 bows per year.
I get your point, yet at the same time, if he makes a brilliant bow in the same time it takes to make a good bow he simply wont charge the same.He knows full well that it is worth considerably more.
And at the opposite end of the spectrum an artist may spend 35 hours on a piece of work yet know full well he cant charge by the hour, because no one will buy it. Until he has a 'name'. And having a known name allows a craftsman/artist to charge considerably more than the 'going' rate, due solely to his reputation.
Also, a craftsman may well use an apprentice to deal with certain stages of a job yet charge his 'name' price.
Does Mr Tunnicliffe employ anyone or does he do it all himself? my bet is he has a 'helper' .
There is some relationship fair enough, but it is not as simple as time spent.
I have a feeling that Mr Tunnicliffe, along with other master bow-makers, wouldn't make or sell anything less than his best. He makes his bows to specific orders (the Stuttgart Chamber Orchestra was one such customer), and has an 18-month waiting list.
Fair enough Theo, i never have. just goes to show.
Fair enough lazy, you reckon he just puts another name on them? or he just doesn't make good bows, only brilliant ones? And how much per hour do you think he earns!
Jig, for "master bow-maker" try reading "uillean pipes maker". They're not exactly thick on the ground either. Both have reputations they've worked hard to get, and would wish to keep.
What do you look for in a Fiddle Bow?
What do you look for in a Fiddle Bow?
Ive been playing just over a year and I think its time I got a new bow, whats your thoughts on buying a bow, what do you look for and how can you judge whether or not its a good one?
Cheers
Kess
# Posted on October 29th 2007 by Kess
Re: What do you look for in a Fiddle Bow?
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/11191/
# Posted on October 29th 2007 by llig leahcim
Re: What do you look for in a Fiddle Bow?
Get some advice from your teacher, or an experienced fiddle player. Bows are a little personal, and you'll want someone that knows your playing to help you pick one out. How you use the bow is going to change a lot in the next several years, and you'll want one that's going to be just as good for you then as now.
T.J.
http://www.cdbaby.com/hullksiazek
# Posted on October 29th 2007 by reenactor
Re: What do you look for in a Fiddle Bow?
That's a difficult one. It's good that you're looking to trade up your bow, it's easy to overlook how important the bow is.
Is there a shop nearby where you can go and try out some bows? That's your best bet. Taking a teacher or fiddler friend along is a good idea too.
Although I don't have one, I've heard a lot of good things about the carbon fiber (graphite) bows. They seem to be very good for the money, and might be a safe bet if you aren't sure of what to get.
As for how to tell if a bow is a good one...well if it's wooden, has a name stamped on it, and costs way more than you can afford, it's probably a good one. Otherwise you need experience to sort out which bows are quality. That's why I think the carbon fibre ones may be a safe bet, you know what you're getting.
# Posted on October 29th 2007 by Marklar
Re: What do you look for in a Fiddle Bow?
there is also this:
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/13574/comments
I found that I had to try a lot of different bows and see how they felt. It's a very individual thing---it depends on your playing style and your fiddle. Just recently I tried playing with a $3000 bow, thinking that it would blow away my bow, but I didn't even like it as much---it was a much stiffer bow meant for classical playing where you really have to dig into the strings. Whereas for our kind of music, you need something with a little spring that tracks well---we do lots of string crossing and short bow strokes.
The other thing I found is important is after you narrow it down to two or three, take them all home with you and play them for a week (any reputable shop will let you sign an insurance waiver for this). It takes a while to get a feel for what works the best. That way you can also have your teacher and any other good players try them out and tell you their opinion.
Oh, another thing---pay attention to the condition of the bows and when they were last rehaired. One bow I looked at was way too mushy and I had to bring it back for a rehair before I could evaluate it properly. Again, if you're dealing with a good shop, they shouldn't mind doing this because they're going to have to do it at some point anyway, so don't be shy about asking.
# Posted on October 29th 2007 by kennedy
Re: What do you look for in a Fiddle Bow?
A violinmaker told me that if you bounce the tip of the bow against the palm of your left hand, a good bow will have a "ping" or liveliness to it that a bad bow does not. At least that's what he said--I wasn't sure I could tell any difference that way.
The only thing to do is play a bunch of them for comparison, and pick the one that feels best (and that you can afford).
# Posted on October 29th 2007 by mickray
Re: What do you look for in a Fiddle Bow?
Another test of the liveliness of a bow is if you can feel the sound vibration of the strings through the stick. The problem here is that a beginner, almost by definition, wouldn't yet have the bowing technique to do this.
# Posted on October 29th 2007 by lazyhound
Re: What do you look for in a Fiddle Bow?
I look for an octagonal bow. A Bowyer first cuts this octagonal form, then rounds it off to balance it out. An octagonal bow indicates a mature craftsman who got it right first time.
# Posted on October 29th 2007 by jig
Re: What do you look for in a Fiddle Bow?
Octagonal vs. round is a personal thing...the round bows tend to be more flexible. I don't think you can say that either is superior, though you might be right that a good octagonal stick is harder to make well.
# Posted on October 29th 2007 by Marklar
Re: What do you look for in a Fiddle Bow?
round vs octagonal depends on the grain of the pernambuco and what the experienced bowmaker thinks will make a better bow..there are a lot of generalizations about round vs octagonal bows...all round bows are not octagonal rejects
but I concur with Lazyhound...after I had been playing for a year I did not have the skills necessary to pick out a decent bow...chances are, you will just end up wanting something different in another year..
but for great bows that are affordable, I really like the Arcos Brasil bowmakers, especially Chagis and M. Pereira. THeir silver mount bows will probably start at around 700 and there are some limited edition bows of theirs at around 1200..Pereira has some gold mounted bows at around 2200.
# Posted on October 29th 2007 by Sunnybear
Re: What do you look for in a Fiddle Bow?
I look for a completely balanced stick, something that doesn't shake when you get near the tip, and isn't unwieldy near the frog. Right now I'm playing one of those new hybrid bows: wood stick with a carbon fiber core. Amazing thing, it is. Great tone throughout the entire length of the stick and no wobbles. It's a Finckle/Finkle (sp?) and I love it. I use it for classical as well as fiddle and it works well for both.
# Posted on October 30th 2007 by thebunnystomper
Re: What do you look for in a Fiddle Bow?
The link has been posted here before but for authentic ITM there's really only one kind of bow:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gEMc38VxKx8
The knitting needles are optional.
# Posted on October 30th 2007 by Mike Floorstand
Re: What do you look for in a Fiddle Bow?
screetch, i didnt say an octagonal bow is harder to make well, i dont know. I was asked what i look for in a bow.
What i mean is that the bow maker cuts the octagonal form first. If that then is considered by the maker to be good they will leave it as it is. I have made good money in the past using this as my basic guide, Obviously a renowned maker is your best bet.
But if you are stuck with little money, and not so much choice .......
I have a couple of carbon fiber bows as well, ok, but if you want a good bow it will cost you, unless you are lucky,
I still prefer my first bow, I bought at fiddlesticks in Camden town many years ago. I suppose it is a matter of familiarity, and although i could play with my girlfriends bow which is worth a grand or so ,and a lovely, quality bow ,I dont.
Get used to the gear you have is my philosophy .
The bow is half the instrument and a good one will last a lifetime.
update. just bought a high tension incredibow.
Await with interest.
# Posted on October 30th 2007 by jig
Re: What do you look for in a Fiddle Bow?
"What i mean is that the bow maker cuts the octagonal form first. If that then is considered by the maker to be good they will leave it as it is."
That's not true at all. Most fine sticks are made round by choice, not because the bow make didn't get it right the first time. Octaganal sticks are in the minority, even at the highest price points.
# Posted on October 30th 2007 by Marklar
Re: What do you look for in a Fiddle Bow?
Er, bow maker, not bow make.
# Posted on October 30th 2007 by Marklar
Re: What do you look for in a Fiddle Bow?
And octagonal, not octaganal...pff.
# Posted on October 30th 2007 by Marklar
Re: What do you look for in a Fiddle Bow?
And by the way, I know that all bows start out octagonal. But the end product is a decision, not to due it being "right" by the rough shaping.
If the stick is octagonal as the end product, it's no because the initial shaping was perfect. It's because the bow maker decided to make it octagonal, and so the final shaping was done that way instead of rounding it.
I seriously doubt that any bow maker worth his salt goes with an octagonal stick because the initial shaping is somehow perfect. That's not where octagonal sticks come from. It's just a decision on the part of the bow maker, and has no bearing on quality.
# Posted on October 30th 2007 by Marklar
Re: What do you look for in a Fiddle Bow?
You seem very sure screetch.
I am just repeating what i was taught. It makes sense to me, A master makes the cuts. Finished.
If you consider the Zen approach to a fine art you will see that the master just makes the cut, takes the shot, not a conscious decision, rather like a cat jumps, its here.... its there.
Now you may disagree but i would ask what makes you so sure?
# Posted on October 30th 2007 by jig
Re: What do you look for in a Fiddle Bow?
The idea that octagonal bows are better because they are perfect at the initial shaping is a myth. I've heard it before. I've been playing violin for 24 years and I've played with a lot of bows.
If octagonal bows are the best, then why are most sticks round, even at the high end? Wouldn't the octagonal bows dominate the high end if they are the mark of superior craftsmanship?
# Posted on October 30th 2007 by Marklar
Re: What do you look for in a Fiddle Bow?
And the point I was really trying to make is that the octagonal sticks are shaped that way at the final finishing...there's no reason to assume that they were that way at the initial shaping.
Just because the stick is octagonal does not mean that it was perfect on the first cut.
# Posted on October 30th 2007 by Marklar
Re: What do you look for in a Fiddle Bow?
nobody said they were the best. The way I heard it is simply that they are first cut octagonal (you don't doubt that) and filed/ground/sanded down until the maker decides enough is enough. Sometimes the maker decides enough is enough sooner than later.
Seems straight forward to me
# Posted on October 30th 2007 by llig leahcim
Re: What do you look for in a Fiddle Bow?
That's fair enough. And I'lll grant that an octagonal stick *might* be the mark of a better bow, but you can't go by that alone. Round sticks can be superior. It's not a good criteron to judge a bow on, IMHO.
# Posted on October 30th 2007 by Marklar
Re: What do you look for in a Fiddle Bow?
er, criterion, even. I can't type tonight.
# Posted on October 30th 2007 by Marklar
Re: What do you look for in a Fiddle Bow?
Well i presume that even a master is going to only get one out of 10 right first time....
Each maker will make good bows and great bows, as well as the rest. Each one is unique. It comes down to the judgement of the craftsman as to whether the bow is ok at the first cut, a middling maker may make a middling oct bow and be done with it, a master may make a good octagonal bow and work it till its a great round bow. I suggest that its the maker that is the most important factor, along with the wood. A good makers bow is what you want, He will judge each bow according to his standards and price it accordingly.
Whether it is oct or round..... is not relevant.
However if any craftsman makes a bow , and leaves it oct, that to my mind suggests confidence in his own art.
I make no claim to be an expert in this field, however i have met more than a few, . I certainly didn't hear this theory from a layman.
# Posted on October 30th 2007 by jig
Re: What do you look for in a Fiddle Bow?
Screetch, nobody said that an octagonal bow might be better than a round one.
# Posted on October 30th 2007 by llig leahcim
Re: What do you look for in a Fiddle Bow?
I remember reading somewhere that the cut depends on the quality and density of the wood, as well as the kind of bow the maker wants to produce---that an octagonal lends stiffness to the bow, so it can help with wood that isn't so stiff to start with, or make an extra-stiff bow if that's what the maker wants. Likewise with the round cuts. It's pretty amazing what an art there is to bowmaking, when to the untrained eye it just looks like an ordinary stick of wood.
# Posted on October 30th 2007 by kennedy
Re: What do you look for in a Fiddle Bow?
Actually, I've just re-read it, and Jig did say that. He's wrong
# Posted on October 30th 2007 by llig leahcim
Re: What do you look for in a Fiddle Bow?
Michael, jig said "An octagonal bow indicates a mature craftsman who got it right first time."---which implies, what, that a round bow indicates a lesser craftsman who had to tinker with a badly cut bow? That's how I read it...
# Posted on October 30th 2007 by kennedy
Re: What do you look for in a Fiddle Bow?
That's not how I read this:
"I look for an octagonal bow. A Bowyer first cuts this octagonal form, then rounds it off to balance it out. An octagonal bow indicates a mature craftsman who got it right first time."
Or is it that the octagonal bow means a better craftsman rather than a better bow? In that case I get the point. But I still see it as a useless criterion for evaluating a bow.
# Posted on October 30th 2007 by Marklar
Re: What do you look for in a Fiddle Bow?
Ah, sorry, cross-posted
# Posted on October 30th 2007 by kennedy
Re: What do you look for in a Fiddle Bow?
This is all academic and will only confuse the original poster, I suggest we drop it. It isn't helpful for someone looking for a new bow after one year of playing.
# Posted on October 30th 2007 by Marklar
Re: What do you look for in a Fiddle Bow?
A basic engineering principle when working with materials is that cracks, defects, and weaknesses tend to propagate from an edge or corner. An octagonal bow has eight edges; it is also made from a material (wood) that is not isotropic and is not homogeneous. A circular cross-section would therefore seem to be preferable from the point of view of overall strength.
A good bow vibrates in response to the vibration of the string being played (as I mentioned in a previous post), and in turn interacts with the vibration of the string – a very complex system to analyse. I think the nature of the sound vibrations within the bow would depend in part on the shape of the bow's cross-section and would affect the sound produced by the violin – perhaps not dramatically, but enough to be noticed in some circumstances. Considerations of symmetry suggest to me that a circular cross-section would be better for optimal sound.
# Posted on October 30th 2007 by lazyhound
Re: What do you look for in a Fiddle Bow?
well that makes sense lazy.
>>But I still see it as a useless criterion for evaluating a bow.<
, Well i made several hundred pounds on one bow because of this information, i bought the fiddle and bow for 30 the bow was later valued at 350-500. so it was not useless info!
There are so many factors inherant in choosing a bow, my suggestion was merely one of those.
Ever seen a cheap octagonal Chinese bow?
# Posted on October 30th 2007 by jig
Re: What do you look for in a Fiddle Bow?
If you go for a carbon-fibre bow (which, in my opinion, are generally an excellent choice for session and gig playing - and orchestral work) be aware that they, like wood bows, do vary in quality. Some of the very cheap ones would only be useful in the potting shed; but there are c-f bows up round the £2000 mark, and at that level you'd be thinking in terms of playing as an international soloist. As a very rough rule of thumb I'd say that a c-f bow would be about half the price of an equivalent pernambuco wood bow.
No two bows, c-f or wood, will give exactly the same response, or feel the same. Some will give a bigger sound than others. Some bows will feel very light and fast, even though they may be the same weight as a slower bow – this sort of difference may be due to things such as balance, resilience or stiffness. Again, some bows tend to mute the high frequencies very slightly. Even apparently identical c-f bows can feel different, balance-wise – this is often due to slight differences in the weight of the frog, which is usually not c-f but a hard wood such as ebony.
But a fundamental problem remains. As I said earlier, a beginner is unable to make clear distinctions between bows. When the player is able to do this s/he is no longer a beginner and will have several years of experience. Until then, the beginner must rely on the expertise and advice of a teacher or other reliable and experienced player when selecting a bow.
# Posted on October 30th 2007 by lazyhound
Re: What do you look for in a Fiddle Bow?
Let's take it to emails or another topic if you want to continue the argument. I don't think it's useful to the origninal poster to contiue it here.
# Posted on October 30th 2007 by Marklar
Re: What do you look for in a Fiddle Bow?
My initial post;
>>I look for an octagonal bow. A Bowyer first cuts this octagonal form, then rounds it off to balance it out. An octagonal bow indicates a mature craftsman who got it right first time.<<
Yes i suppose it relates more to the craftsman than the bow, but a mature craftsman should, according to my somewhat shaky logic, make good bows.
# Posted on October 30th 2007 by jig
Re: What do you look for in a Fiddle Bow?
Not emails! Keep discussions here in the public domain. It's the only way to arrive at some useful consensus and conclusions - by input from members at all levels.
"I don't think it's useful to the origninal poster to continue it [the argument] here." How do we know? Anyway, a beginner of one year's experience isn't going to remain in that situation for very long. Many discussions here start with a simple question or statement and blossom into a detailed analysis which is ultimately of benefit to everyone.
# Posted on October 30th 2007 by lazyhound
Re: What do you look for in a Fiddle Bow?
OK screetch, though i was enjoying myself,
I was able to have the luxury of choosing a fiddle and bow from a selection of high class instruments when i bought my bow and fiddle.At least in a quality establishment you can be pretty sure that whatever you get it will be good...
Anyone got any thoughts on these incredibows?
# Posted on October 30th 2007 by jig
Re: What do you look for in a Fiddle Bow?
OK, fair enough. I just don't like the drama
It's a good thing to make money by investing in bows, and shows some knowledge of what you're doing. But to invest in bows based on whether the stick is round or not is a shaky investment...
You're right that cheap Chinese bows are round and you won't get such a stick by looking or octagonal ones. But really, you kinda got lucky. If the Chinese knew we were looking a that, they'd make octagonal bows. The shape of the stick doesn't necessarily mean quality. It's perfectly possible to make a crappy bow with an octagonal stick.
But I take your point that an octagonal stick may mean better quality because bad bows aren't generally made that way. But that's not because octagonal sticks are better in any general way.
# Posted on October 30th 2007 by Marklar
Re: What do you look for in a Fiddle Bow?
I've never used an incredibow, but there are a lot of glowing reviews of them on this site.
# Posted on October 30th 2007 by Marklar
Re: What do you look for in a Fiddle Bow?
Yeah and though it was the octagonal nature that first alerted me i probably looked closer and found other points of interest, like balance, weight, the grain of the wood.....
Yeah i got lucky, though it wasn't 'just' luck!
# Posted on October 30th 2007 by jig
Re: What do you look for in a Fiddle Bow?
I know that it wasn't just luck, I'm sure that you looked at more than just the shape of the stick, otherwise you wouldn't have been able to tell the good ones you bought from the plethora of bad round sticks.
My point is just that the shape of the stick alone doesn't mean a good bow.
# Posted on October 30th 2007 by Marklar
Re: What do you look for in a Fiddle Bow?
Thanks guys, to be honest I was only gone to spend £100. Just something a bit better than the £20 one I have at the moment to do me for about a year or something.
Cheers
K
# Posted on October 30th 2007 by Kess
Re: What do you look for in a Fiddle Bow?
Well kess, you got a few pointers.
I have made inquiries with my ' bow man' and await his professional advice with interest.
I certainly have learnt a bit from this thread and im sure so have many others. It great to have this forum here.
# Posted on October 30th 2007 by jig
Re: What do you look for in a Fiddle Bow?
Make sure the bow is straight. . by that I mean see that it doesnt curve to either side when you hold it in front of you. any way..play long slow notes and check theres no bounce in the stick...slow playing will highlight any irregularities...does it feel comfortable and balanced in your right hand or does it feel unwieldy? I would definitely compare as many bows as possible in your price bracket so you start to develop a feel for what kind of bow suits you.
# Posted on October 30th 2007 by peter wsll
Re: What do you look for in a Fiddle Bow?
I would also suggest trying bows out of your price so you have an idea of how a good bow behaves. just dont get too attached to that 1000£ special!
# Posted on October 30th 2007 by jig
Re: What do you look for in a Fiddle Bow?
I like something that i can get my thumb into the frog snugly.
Apart from that i want it to feel durable because i use far too much pressure when playing and i don't want it to break mid-tune.
Balance is important for control and good hair that gives a consistent action on the strings. As for Octagonal v round, i admit mine is an octagonal but i wouldn't include it in my criteria.
# Posted on October 30th 2007 by jfiddlerh
Re: What do you look for in a Fiddle Bow?
"cheap Chinese bows are round"
and cheap German bows are octagonal...go figure
# Posted on October 30th 2007 by Sunnybear
Re: What do you look for in a Fiddle Bow?
Jig - how are you getting on with the high tension incredibow - I presume this is a standard weight.
I tried a featherweight and a high tension the other day at a session. I kind of prefered the high tension at the time- it was certainly louder and had a great tone. On the other hand I don't think I played the featherweight for long enough to get used to it (and I like the idea of having a lighter weight bow in my case).
# Posted on October 30th 2007 by tobes
Re: What do you look for in a Fiddle Bow?
Useful Q&A forum here ...
http://forums.abrsm.org/lofiversion/index.php/t23892.html
# Posted on October 30th 2007 by lazyhound
Re: What do you look for in a Fiddle Bow?
Just bought it yesterday as a result of this page and the links so....dont know yet...I will start a discussion on it when i am familiar with it so i will keep you informed.
I play quite heavy, with plenty of 'dig' as llig calls it, so i feel a heavier bow more suited to my style, I am using my 5string viola most of the time now, so await with interest the incredibow.
# Posted on October 30th 2007 by jig
Re: What do you look for in a Fiddle Bow?
Isn't the octagonal shape indeed the preliminary stage before the bow stick is made round? Making round takes more time and therefore adds to the cost of the bow. Note that at the high end of wood bow-making there is a substantial wastage rate because the quality of the bow cannot be assessed properly until it is almost completed. Presumably, some of the bows that turn out not quite good enough to attract a 4-figure price tag end up in a lower price bracket.
The outcome of making a carbon-fibre bow is much more predictable, and the wastage rate is significantly lower. Couple this with a different manufacturing process and you can see why a c-f bow can have much of the playing quality of a hand-made pernambuco bow of twice the price. It's probably not until you get to the best bows (well into 4k) as used by top-level professionals that they can point out why a wood bow at that level is superior to even the best c-f bows.
Gold or silver parts, or fancy inlays, do not , and cannot, of themselves add to the playing quality of a bow, but a bowmaker may well use such things to show that a particular bow is of top playing quality and to distinguish it from the also-rans.
Note that bows (wood) are initially made straight, and then given their curvature at a later stage using heat. A bowmaker will use the heat treatment technique to correct a lateral bend in a bow or to re-curve one that's straightened a little with time. A convenient time for him to do this is when the bow is taken in for rehairing.
A slight lateral bend can happen if the hair tension becomes uneven across the width of the bow. I've got it on one of my bows but I don't notice it at all when playing. I'll get it corrected at the next re-hair.
# Posted on October 30th 2007 by lazyhound
Re: What do you look for in a Fiddle Bow?
Well lazy, i really don't think the time spent is relevant in the pricing of a high quality bow.
A bow that is rated highly by the crafts man will fetch a premium price how ever long it took him.
You would'nt expect a good bow that took 10 hours to cost more than a great bow that took 3 for example.This is one of the things gained by good training and plenty of experience ;, speed in production.
I suppose at a lower level then the maker will need to consider the hours put in , as a pricing criteria.
# Posted on October 30th 2007 by jig
Re: What do you look for in a Fiddle Bow?
Jig, I doubt whether most business people would accept that the time spent in making a product is not relevant to the pricing. Especially in a hand-made product such as a fiddle wood bow where the hands-on time in making is a very large proportion of the total cost.
The British master bow-maker (aka "archetier") Brian Tunnicliffe estimates that it takes 35-40 hours to make a bass bow, about 10 hours more than it takes to make one for a fiddle. With his output to date, that works out at about 30-35 bows per year.
# Posted on October 31st 2007 by lazyhound
Re: What do you look for in a Fiddle Bow?
I get your point, yet at the same time, if he makes a brilliant bow in the same time it takes to make a good bow he simply wont charge the same.He knows full well that it is worth considerably more.
And at the opposite end of the spectrum an artist may spend 35 hours on a piece of work yet know full well he cant charge by the hour, because no one will buy it. Until he has a 'name'. And having a known name allows a craftsman/artist to charge considerably more than the 'going' rate, due solely to his reputation.
Also, a craftsman may well use an apprentice to deal with certain stages of a job yet charge his 'name' price.
Does Mr Tunnicliffe employ anyone or does he do it all himself? my bet is he has a 'helper' .
There is some relationship fair enough, but it is not as simple as time spent.
# Posted on October 31st 2007 by jig
Re: What do you look for in a Fiddle Bow?
>>Ever seen a cheap octagonal Chinese bow?<<
Yes, I've got one that came "free" along with a £200 Chinese fiddle.
# Posted on October 31st 2007 by Theo Gibb
Re: What do you look for in a Fiddle Bow?
I have a feeling that Mr Tunnicliffe, along with other master bow-makers, wouldn't make or sell anything less than his best. He makes his bows to specific orders (the Stuttgart Chamber Orchestra was one such customer), and has an 18-month waiting list.
# Posted on October 31st 2007 by lazyhound
Re: What do you look for in a Fiddle Bow?
Fair enough Theo, i never have. just goes to show.
Fair enough lazy, you reckon he just puts another name on them? or he just doesn't make good bows, only brilliant ones? And how much per hour do you think he earns!
# Posted on November 1st 2007 by jig
Re: What do you look for in a Fiddle Bow?
Jig, for "master bow-maker" try reading "uillean pipes maker". They're not exactly thick on the ground either. Both have reputations they've worked hard to get, and would wish to keep.
# Posted on November 1st 2007 by lazyhound