Does anyone else have problems memorizing. I am new to this (playing for 3 months). I still need to rely on the written tune (guitar - so I need the chords).
The funny thing is they say that playing music helps with memory.
I am trying to listen for the chord changes. But, in some tunes, you can fake some chords but the written tune is sometimes much richer with more chords.
One session I play is open and there are several books floating around (plus I have some of my own and downloaded tunes). At others, they don't even announce the tune. So, I'm very lost.
Maybe you can grab one of the melody players to help you get the tunes in your head. With Irish traditional it is all about the melody & rhythm. Backing is more open to interpretation.
3 months is not a very long time at all, really. I suggest just play the tunes over and over. Pick ones you especially like, that helps also
When memorizing, taking the tune one measure at time also helps your fingers to remember patterns.
After doing that, playing along with a recoring is good because it forces you to keep up with the music, and not to repeat measures or a note pattern, and trying to correct a wrong note (and it also helps prepare your for playing with other 'live' humans who aren't going to wait for you to correct something
How's your cd collection? Do you have music running everywhere you go---at home, in the car, on an iPod? Lots of the old discussions here have great suggestions on what to listen to. And there are free websites as well. The idea is to get familiar with the music from as many different sources as possible---if the only time you're hearing the tunes is at a session, then it's much harder to become familiar witn them. Also try recording the session---that way you can learn the tunes at home.
I'm with Kennedy, use your ears, to hear, more than yours eyes to memorize.
Unless you have memorized the tune and it's in your head, but you haven't quite memorized the finger patterns? (I have experienced this myself) Then it's just keep playing!
jemsmom - there have been some good suggestions here - especially about listening to as much irish music as you can get your hands on. There are also several web-sites to search out regarding backing guitar for Irish music. I think when you are exposed to how some great players do it, it will open up your ears quite a bit to some new msuical horizons. Don't worry, the melody's will start to become familair the more you do this - but your book is a crutch and you will eventually want to toss it. Reliance upon it will actually slow your progress.
What part of Western mass do you live in? I have family in Great Barrington...
Memorization doesn't come from trying to memorize the actual notes like you'd memorize a mathematical formula or poem. It comes from playing the same tune enough times that you can just do it without thinking about it.
You train your body to memorize the motions, not your brain to memorize the sheet music. The memory is in your hands, not your mind.
Try this: Learn the first couple of bars of a tune first, then add another couple of bars, but always go back and recap. Don't add the next two bars until you can play the first four off pat, three times without any errors. Carry on like this for the whole tune. Try to allow your fingers to remember the tunes. Don't let your brain get in the way! Stay relaxed and tell yourself it is easy. The more you learn, the easier it will become.
When you're listening to music, you might like to try to identify chords as you hear them.
The I (one), IV (4) & V(5)chords of tunes that are in a Major key are the easiest to hear in the beginning.
After that (still in a Major key) are the ii(minor 2), iii(minor 3) and vi(minor 6).
If you do enough of this, you might find yourself able to predict the chord changes after a while.
Well, memorizing is a part of learning. You can't learn to play a tune without memorizing it.
To know a tune means being able to play it from memory...you can't know how to play a tune if you have to have something to tell you how to play it. Granted, sheet music can be a handy reminder, but if you know the tune then that's all it is, just something to jog the memory.
I don't think there are any secret shortcuts beyond the ones you'll hear over and over - practise, listen, learn by ear as much as possible, and be patient.
The only other suggestion I could make would be to invest in a whistle and really learn to play some tunes on that. If nothing else, it'll give you something to do at a session when three other guitarists are there working away when you come in, and with any luck it'll help your playing as well.
Oh, and ignore the chords written out in your tunebooks. The most you can get from them is a pretty good guess as to what to overall key will be, and even there you can be led astray. Best to listen, and if you're not sure, play as little as possible and try to match the phrasing of the tune.
Yeah, i often wonder what on earth these chords in some books are about? i mean are they listening to the same piece of music?
Excuse me but what does this mean?>>What is the sop on this?<<
well when i started trad i was dropped in at the deep end, I was given the chord patterns written down on a piece of card, taped these to the guitar and i was off and away,[ as long as the lights were on!] I picked the set up pretty quick mind you but i used this technique for a number of years, song chord patterns as well, even lyrics. little notes etc.
Having someone who knew the theory behind chord patterns in trad was a great blessing, there is a school of thought that thinks the chord patterns arnt as fixed in stone as the melody's, perhaps this is so, within certain limits, but as far as am concerned, these limits are quite clear.
Quite often there are 2 chords in a tune, say Am and G in the case of say the knotted cord. Others will have Amajor , Am and G ; farewell to Ireland.
Its the pattern that can be complicated,
The fiddlers fake book has good chord settings, the only book i can recomend.
Now learning the tunes is standard advice, This does not need to be done on a material instrument, though this certainly helps, but in the mind. If you can hum the tune....
Familiarity with a style of music is something that can only be achieved with time, it is not so much something you ' learn', as something you are/do.
good luck
jemsmom: Yes, I have a problem with memorizing too. I can sing the tunes just fine, totally familiar with them, but that doesn't mean I can pick up a whistle and just play them by ear. My wee brain cannot grasp that I'm afraid . . . and people who play "by ear" just don't understand that. But basically, it comes down to "muscle memory" (in the fingers) -- just like a person who types at full speed. They are not really thinking about the letters, it's just by how each set of letters feels when you type it. Is that confusing enough? Repetition is the key I think.
Sorry Jem's Mom, I got hauled away or I would have explained that was a serious reply, if a bit tongue-in-cheek as well but 'a mini-mental status exam' might not be a bad idea... It was about 'repetition', and 'asking', as you've done here, putting yourself forward in search of some help. I did go through a barrage of tests not that long ago and found I had a short-term memory problem that was certified under that catch-all header dyslexia. It does explain some things, but without knowing it previously I have developed ways of working around my limitations there. The one good outcome of that is that my wife has become a little more patient with my memory problems.
Repetition ~ but not just repetition without reason. Structure it, break things up into parts, and ~ PLEASE! ~ LEARN MELODY!!! The worst 'accompanists', strummers or drummers, are those that haven't a clue there.
Realise your limitations ~ and ours too ~ you do not have to accompany everything, please, don't... Just master a few things at a time, and if they are all 3-chords, well, there's nothing wrong with that. A good 3-chord player is much more preferred to a bad multi-chordal have-a-bash-at-everything... It is good to listen, as others have been saying, and I am fully behind that, but it is also good to stop and spend time listening at sessions, whatever your instrument. You listen while you play, ideally, but we all should also occassionally put things away and not play and just listen, grow our appreciation. Again, already said, including to recordings... You will gain greater appreciation for reservation here, or not playing, than you will for struggling through and potentially dragging others down by not listening because you are following some prescribed set of chords written out before you. That kind of 'not listening' has no appreciation, except maybe in a workshop or in your own closet...figuratively speaking...
Many good suggestions have already been given. I have to agree without reservation, you gotta ditch the books. They should only ever be a guide, not a crutch, not the 'rule of law'... Don't fall back on the excuse that 'others do it'. That doesn't make it right. It's like choosing to use a cane as a lark and after awhile you find you're limping without it. The books aren't just a 'crutch', they will cripple your playing and interfere with your sensual connection to the music, direct contact, and that means as well with the other musicians and their music making... Besides, where chords or a string of dots or ABCs are concerned, or anything in print, they are only 'suggestions', a map maybe, but not the journey... They are bones without flesh and blood, lifeless. I can promise you, that lifelessness in music ruled by the sheet is obvious, it's shight... It is also rude, because you should be there with the others, not detracted by devoting a percentage of your attention to the proscribed as printed out, sterile ink on paper... Let it live, even if initially that is clumsy and stumbling like a newborn foal... Give it air, let it breath, don't let the paper smother the life out of it. It does, and that is obvious to those of us who do listen...
Screech said, ":You train your body to memorize the motions, not your brain to memorize the sheet music. The memory is in your hands, not your mind."
No. if you are playing the music via a memorized pattern that your hands/fingers make, that's no better than playing from a sheet of music. Your hands should be serving your memory of the tune which is lodged very firmly in your mind as a sound, not an exercise in dexterity.
If I understand this correctly you learn music via the brains' conscious function. You come to 'know' & play each tune through the subconscious. These are two different states of mind through which we constantly go back & forth..
That's why you can get so many tunes in your head yet not remember all their names.
I've been thinking about this and though I accept that some people just have better memories than others, I reckon it really boils down to just one simple thing:
How much do you care?
I remember tunes because I love them. I sing and whistle them all day long (mostly just in my head - I'd get more than a bit annoying otherwise). Tunes tunes tunes, so many brilliant tunes. I really care a lot for them. They are precious gems in a world filled with mindless mediocrity, crass commercialism and inane idiocy. They are my default brainwaves, they are my wallpaper. They are abstract and intangible and yet, in some ways, the most real things in my head. They are not my bread and butter, they are better than that, they - sometimes quite literally - are my breath.
I can appreciate how it is for a beginner.
You start by loving traditional music & then you get in the session & it seems to be coming at you all at once.
As has been said before ~ good things take time.
Listen to the tunes every which way you can think of;
in session, on CDs, tape a session . .
If the session is too overwhelming try to find a kind soul who is willing to sit down with you & have a couple of mini-sessions.
We all have to take the time to make beautiful music.
I play from memory, and for about a year have been playing with a couple of groups of people who play solely from the sheets. As I'm not good enough to pick up a tune immediately by ear, the others think I'm remedial, and enthusiastically try to help by putting 'simple' pieces of music in front of me, urging me to read them (which I couldn't do fast enough, anyway.)
Only one or two of the others could manage to play anything at all without the sheets.
I've tried to make the 'hybrid' experience work for quite a while, for want of other 'ear' players of my level living close by, but I feel a parting of the ways is imminent.
However, I'm with Michael all the way on this, so, sadly, I think I'll just have to go back to ploughing the lonely furrow again. Just can't see a way round it.
Yes llig leahcim, definitely ~ and somewhere in the love of it and dancing to it ~ it becomes second nature, finds a comfortable place somewhere in the subconscious, bubbling up now and then into the conscious, by demand or on its own whim...
Be selective, and take things one at a time instead of all at once...play with them, sing them, dance to them, share them ~ all forms of listening and taking something to heart, as Michael says, definitely the best way to put something into the memory... Pain and discomfort work too, but in this case I'd go with pleasure, though there is pathos in the music too, those deeply sad parts, as well as the humourous and the playful... Emotion, feeling something, is definitely a great way to retain it, feel for it, give it emotional context, any context outside of just dots on paper...
The chord pattern is a definite entity in itself, simply knowing the tune wont automatically mean you know the chord pattern, It has to be figured out and learnt . Whether this is done by ear or by sight......
Really for a beginner, I think he should buy the fiddlers fake book and study the chord pattern of someone who really knows and understand the music. Use the chord patterns suggested for maybe 20 standareds with a whistler,fiddler etc, live or a recording, apply those 20 pattern to the tunes.Obviously what you want is a live musical partner.
I would suggest he doesn't deviate from the chord patterns in this book, taking the simpler version when given the choice, as you are sometimes. That 20 is your first set. repeat for second set, When you feel ready.
Playing the melody note by note is all well and good, but at some point ornament enters in. The only way I know to get into seriously ornamenting the tune after a couple of repititions is to know the tune well enough to know where you are, and as long as you are reading it, that won't happen.
The very best players can read and ornament simultaneously, but they are VERY few and far between, and we pay $30 a pop to see them.
In terms of traditional music, how you get there is your own business, but I have a real problem seeing music stands on the stage, unless it is orchestral music, and then the parts must be read, or you have a trainwreck. Have you ever seen the Chieftains or Stockton's Wing, etc use sheet music? The answer is "no", and it's because they have learned the tune, and just like the gentleman said, sometimes you have to play the bloody thing 200 times before you really have it.
Rythm guitar, now, is a different beast. Most of this depends on how much you play. There is no substitute to playing every day as far as developing/maintaining one's skill on an instrument. I have been playing professionally for 35 years or better, 4-6 nights a week frequently, and I can really feel it when I don't pick up an instrument (I play several) for longer than a couple of days-takes a few hours/days of hard work to get back up to speed, like anything else you do. Most Celtic tunes are not necessarily harmonically complex, but the popular modes of accompniant is open and frequently DADGAD tuned (John Doyle is a good example of this). Most of the tunes in O'Neil's are not notated for chords, and you can make it as complex and rich as you like. Gilman Carver of Van Dieman's Band is pretty good at this....
I also like the idea of the Fake Book-a time honored tradition amongst pro musicians since the 30's. As long as you have a good basic working knowledge of music, this is the only shortcut I know of, but you should still memorize the tunes, just to be legit in the folk sense. I have been playing folk music as long as I have been playing, and the traditional way is to get it by ear. (Better known as the Folk Process, through which the music is alive and changing)
To me , the method used in learning, sight or ear, is a different issue to remembering.
But the long term memory where we put these tunes can, over time degrade. so tunes learnt 20 yrs ago by ear, with no visual recored can, from my experience simply get lost in the archives of my mind, Oh for a good librarian!
The concept of actually using sheet music as #the# method of 'knowing' a tune i have to admit is completely alien to me.
Even the top 'classical' people will learn the tunes. And some of the tunes these people know are longer than 16 bars! Try getting them by ear!
Untill you can play a piece without the dots you havnt even started stage 1 of 'knowing the tune.
I learn't my tunes for 15 yrs by ear before i learnt to read, so i have experience of both methods.
I consider both methods to be useful. Playing by ear means i can generally pick up a tune second time round, well, with the simpler tunes.But reading the dots can make life so much simpler,
Just playing from the dots can also disable a number of important musical skills,Too many trained musicians simply lack the ability to improvise.
Its a matter of forging neural pathways, as these pathways are formed . like a river valley formed by the rain, the potential to cut other neural routes is diminished by the depth of those formed. Good habits are important to develop from the beginning. Allowing the full potential to develop.
Good to have you on board Mr Campbell.
Running with Michael's point about living and breathing the tunes: this has to be the key to remembering- actually caring about the tunes themselves individually, not just how to play them.
It perplexes me that some people who play this music are apparently unable to sing, hum or whistle any of the tunes they play more than competently with the dots in front of them. At first sight, this seems a disconnected, clinical approach to the music- it's not as if they were symphony length after all.
On the other hand, I had a fiddle teacher once who couldn't sing a note, so maybe that is a problem for some.
Personally, I also like to be able to put a name to tunes, as I do to people, as I find that helps me remember what they are like.
An illustration of a danger of playing from the dots - when you already know the tune:
A couple of months ago I was at a workshop for playing for set-dancers. Because the attendees were from a wide area, so weren't necessarily familiar with local tunes, or were perhaps used to playing for kinds of set-dancing other than Irish, the only way the workshop could work was by playing from the dots.
The problem started for me in the afternoon session when we got round to playing for live set-dancers. I already had in my head about 75% of the 90-odd tunes we had worked on in the morning read-through session. When I found myself with the dots of those tunes in front of me when I was playing for the dancers it turned out to be very distracting. I was slowing down and making silly mistakes. The only solution was to move the music stand away out of focus and then everything was ok. The dots must have been interfering with my memory recall processing.
What gets me is the differing settings, if i know one setting then have another in front of me in dots, the dots confuse me . I have found that a few times on this site where the settings displayed differ a lot from the version i know.
I guess this is the same or similar thing to your situation lazy.
By strange coincidence, I was occupying the seat next to lazyhound on that occasion. As a true gentleman, he makes no mention of having been put off his stroke by the idiot next to him, who was struggling to keep up with the pace on the few pieces he thought he knew- and, like himself, not playing from the dots.
I don't mean to be a wet blanket, but unless you’re already a seriously accomplished guitar player, accompaniment is a tough entry point into this music. I know that strumming chords from a book can get you into the folkie songwriter scene or an American old-time session, but this music is very different and requires a lot of knowledge and understanding on the part of the guitar player. As Sir Llig keeps saying, you have to know the tune. You also have to know the guitar.
It would even be fair to say you need to know the tune better than the melody players. You have to know where the tune is going, but you also need to know when to avoid a full chord and use a two-note drone or a single note or silence, when to play a line that briefly harmonizes the melody, when a tune is right for dense extended chords, how to underscore the tension and release that are the heart of some tunes, and on and on. And, of course, none of this matters if you haven’t mastered the rhythmic groove.
If you don’t want to take up the whistle, learn the tunes on the guitar. Not necessarily to play at tempo, but to understand where the tune lies with respect to the guitar strings. Then you can start to find your own way of supporting the tune and it’ll grow organically as you live with it.
There is an issue of accompanying Irish tunes if one does not know the tune(s). .. But isn't it true there are several diddly tunes which are easy to absorb & for which a few chords could work? Even 2 note chords. Not to say a beginning sessioneer could join on every tune; but there might be a starting point. Say ~ "Rolling in the Rye Grass" ~ or some from Dow's list.
BTW even a pennywhistler should master the rhythmic groove. That should be universal.
Bob I just reread your post.
Once I got past the arrogant 1st paragraph the following part was extremely good advice. You are right accompaniment is quite a process.
Dear Bob. I disagree with Tonya about the first Para. It is the truth. The marvels and wonders of actually studying the tunes on guitar cannot be surpassed. The possibilities are endless and,in the process of familiarising yourself with the tune,you can utilise the natural polyphony of the instrument for effects to lift the tune.
A technique I like for memorising tunes is slowing them down on media player and hear the microscopic detail of the rhythmic devices and ornamentation of say a really good box player. I in fact spent most of the day yesterday doing that with anold PJ Hernon recording and it was a revelation to hear how much is going on in just one bar of music to produce "that" sound.
Study it. Its fun. Don't be frightened of the detail.
I agree, Bob's first par is about as far from arrogant as I could imagine.
And I agree, the devil is in the detail. Though while it can be interesting (and revalationary to someone who doesn't know the music) to listen to some dense playing slowed down, I'd advise against the habit of it. A good deal of the so called decorations and grace notes in this music have timings of their own that operate independently of the tune's tempo. A lot of the little flicks and cuts and taps etc do not slow down if you play slower, and don't speed up if you play faster. You will not appreciate this if you listen to the music artificially slowed down.
The difference between a slow roll and a fast roll, for example have little to do with speed. It's all about timing and placement. You HAVE TO absorb the music at live speed to get it.
Well bob and i obviously disagree on a number of points, harmonizing runs, dense extended chords are the first two to come to mind.As, for me, they have no place in Irish music, though i see them being done quite a lot.
I have noticed other guitar players listening to this 'modern' approach assuming that this is ' the' way to go.
It ia hard as guitarists to really be clear as to what is acceptable and what is not. Especially as there are so many opinions on the matter, one for every fiddler , piper and tune player!
The bottom line is ; do the people you play with and listen to your music accept your approach.?
To satisfy everyone is impossible. We are not all obliged to satisfy the old trad players who might even condemn the guitar as an instrument in ITM! let alone the style of playing and chordal patterns.
For the record, i would not even consider a 7th let alone a 9th or 13th!
As a fiddler i play in a chordal fashion, Using double stops and drones, the tunes are constantly implying chords and patterns.
As far as i am concerned , extending these is unwelcome and can to my mind, interfere with the tune's statements.These extensions are, i think, a modern jazz concept . The ears of most people in the west are trained to understand these musical concepts and so i imagine they will perhaps, become standard .
I am certainly not saying i am right and the others are wrong, far from it. Its all a matter of the context within which the music is judged/enjoyed.
I think we both agree totally that the thorough knowledge of a tune is a pre-requisite to a full, and accomplished accompaniment.
However i personally feel that a beginner can do the job well enough,as long as they have the correct chord patterns. I would much rather play with someone who has an open mind, isn't all ready sure they know all there is to know in this field, who is ready to learn, than some one who knows enough to be dangerous but not enough to really have it.
As an aside this art form requires a large degree of basic, simple copying. WE copy the tunes. I suggest you copy the chord patterns.
After many years we reach a level where we can branch out and apply more individual touches to that which we learnt.
After many more we can cut our own groove, create totally original tunes and patterns based on the thorough understanding we have achieved through the study of the tradition.
Too true Sir Michael.
The more I read Bob's post the more his humility reveals itself.
At what point would it be appropriate for a guitarist to attempt accompaniment?
Can you play;Am.G. Em. D. A? Plus Bm and C? Can you strum; 6/8, and 4/4 rhythms? Well then, you can start.
Its not the chords, its the patterns.
Like the tunes, theres nothing complicated as far as notes go, Ist position, simple major and modal scales, the patterns however!
Thanks jig. I think there is some very good information provided in this thread.
I get the part about learning the tune 1st.
However, jemsmom mentioned something which has not been discussed quite so clearly;
"I am trying to listen for the chord changes. But, in some tunes, you can fake some chords but the written tune is sometimes much richer with more chords."
I am a melody player but I often get the impression that with backing less is more. It might help to emphasize that point. At least for players trying to learn the actual accompaniment.
I would agree, what bugs me is players who insist that This bit is Am or F , when everything the tune says is G. In a simple Am reel, I would play Am and G, if Am doesnt sound right, you can either play G or silence.
I think this is a crucial point, if your not sure, shut up.
You have to be sure. You have to know what you are doing.
Finding a reliable source of chord patterns and memorizing them is the way i entered this genre.
I honestly can think of no other method that will reliably allow even a skilled guitarist to play trad. OK working out the chords yourself, but how will you be able to do this without a grounding learnt from an expert?
Its a way of looking at things, a position of view, Until you can look at the music through the eyes of someone who knows it you will forever be viewing it as an outsider, trying to superimpose your preconceived ideas of how to improve it!
Listen it doesn't need 'improving' , it doesn't need to be jazzed up, It doesn't 'need 'the guitar at all! It is a complete craft in itself. Our job is to support the melody.
''We are the sea the surfers surf upon, We need to create a reliable wave, not something the tune can not sit upon, the tune players need to know you will be there, at the same point of the tune that they are at, reliable , it is not our place to be experimenting, trying out new tricks, new chords.''.
Its all in the listening, and the fluidity you can change between chords, this speed is essential in the backing of trad, A simple Am reel can change chord as quickly as the melody changes notes. there must be an immediate response to the melody.Its all in the listening and response time.
There is no other form of music that i know of that will give you an insight into this style.
Any how glad to get that off my chest rant rant!
"At what point would it be appropriate for a guitarist to attempt accompaniment?" asks Tonya. That's an easy one, when they know the tune.
Jig states the obvious (I'm not knocking it, some people here need the obvious stating from time to time):
"Until you can look at the music through the eyes of someone who knows it you will forever be viewing it as an outsider"
So, of course, if you know it, then there is no problem. And the real question is, "how do you get away with strumming to these tunes if you don't know the music?"
Personally, I refuse to entertain that question. Preferring instead to ask, "Should one even attempt to get away with strumming to these tunes if you don't know the music?"
By copying note for note, or in this case chord by chord, of someone who does know the music.
How else can anyone learn trad?
MY answer to your second question is a resounding no.
However learning a set of 20 tunes and playing them with a fiddler will let you be part of the music. It wont automatically mean you can sit in any session anywhere but at least you will have a clue.
It is simply a case of one tune at a time. building up over the years until one day you will have a couple of hundred tunes.
Melody or chord, is pretty irrelevant, they are both part of the music.
Just as it takes years to pick up tunes on the fly it also takes years to pick up the chords on the fly.
How many years depends on the individual and their dedication and aptitude.
Jig. You should be able to see the chords through picking the tune, but I agree with getting someone else's chords if you can't do that yet.
Adios , Slim!
P.S. I'm thinking of starting a thread, "
Does Fma7 have a place in Irish music.
Answer. Not in the key of Am anyway!
On second thoughts a thread like this is not a good idea.
I dont know about 'should' slim!
I cant automatically play the chord pattern to a tune i know, i have to figure it out , either by playing allong [mostly] or thinking about it. In fact knowing the tune, and knowing i 'should' be able to figure it out straight away can actually get in the way!
I figure its the left brain tripping up the right.
I wasn't necessarally talking about spontaneous backing. I can't do that most times either. I was talking about premeditated backings. Picking the tune out slowly and hearing or seeing the patterns via the shape of the melody.
Its very clear what chord is what after doing that. Slim!
Gosh, I certainly didn't mean to be arrogant. I play Irish tunes on the guitar, but I rarely do accompaniment because I'm not very good at it. It's a different path from playing melody and to do it at a level that would be satisfying to me would require a committment similar to learning a new instrument. I have a fair understanding of how chords and rhythms work, but that's a far cry from being fluent in the language of accompaniment.
And, btw, I'm not advocating specific things like harmonized runs or extended chords. I'm just saying that if you want to use those tools, you need to understand how to use them appropriately (and without irritating the melody players).
well youd likely iritate this melody player! But im always willing to keep my mind open, If you think you can make it work then i will give you the benefit of the doubt,.... for a while!
Fair enough slim, thats true enough.
As far as backing on the fly goes, your ear needs to be attuned to the intervals between chords and notes, A change in key from D to G , or D to Bm etc needs to be instantly recognized, such as with tunes in 2 keys .
Often enough with me i know the tune, either as a backer of melody player, However there are so many tunes ! !
In different regions there will be local tunes and favorite tunes that are not common else where. This can make backing on the fly difficult for even the best of us.
Like i say, learn the chord patterns, each tune has its own. Know the tunes, the names, common sets, etc
But at the end of the day its experience 'doing it' that counts.
With backing this can only be achieved by.... wait for it..... backing! You need a sympathetic tune player and the right chords. Once again i recomend the fiddlers fake book for a reliable and accurate source of chord patterns , Im not saying this is where i learnt, it isnt, but the settings there are relatively uncomplicated and accurate.
good luck
enjoy
Memorizing music
Memorizing music
Does anyone else have problems memorizing. I am new to this (playing for 3 months). I still need to rely on the written tune (guitar - so I need the chords).
The funny thing is they say that playing music helps with memory.
I am trying to listen for the chord changes. But, in some tunes, you can fake some chords but the written tune is sometimes much richer with more chords.
One session I play is open and there are several books floating around (plus I have some of my own and downloaded tunes). At others, they don't even announce the tune. So, I'm very lost.
What is the sop on this?
# Posted on October 27th 2007 by grumblingoldwoman
Re: Memorizing music
Excuse me, could you please repeat that?
# Posted on October 27th 2007 by ceolachan
Re: Memorizing music
Maybe you can grab one of the melody players to help you get the tunes in your head. With Irish traditional it is all about the melody & rhythm. Backing is more open to interpretation.
# Posted on October 27th 2007 by Random_notes
Re: Memorizing music
Ceolachan,
Most of my clients have dementia. Should I give you a mini-mental status exam?
# Posted on October 27th 2007 by grumblingoldwoman
Re: Memorizing music
And they say that deja vu is a once-in-a-lifetime experience. Then they say it again.
# Posted on October 27th 2007 by GaryAMartin
Re: Memorizing music
3 months is not a very long time at all, really. I suggest just play the tunes over and over. Pick ones you especially like, that helps also
When memorizing, taking the tune one measure at time also helps your fingers to remember patterns.
After doing that, playing along with a recoring is good because it forces you to keep up with the music, and not to repeat measures or a note pattern, and trying to correct a wrong note (and it also helps prepare your for playing with other 'live' humans who aren't going to wait for you to correct something
# Posted on October 27th 2007 by TuneTenderfoot
Re: Memorizing music
How's your cd collection? Do you have music running everywhere you go---at home, in the car, on an iPod? Lots of the old discussions here have great suggestions on what to listen to. And there are free websites as well. The idea is to get familiar with the music from as many different sources as possible---if the only time you're hearing the tunes is at a session, then it's much harder to become familiar witn them. Also try recording the session---that way you can learn the tunes at home.
# Posted on October 27th 2007 by kennedy
Re: Memorizing music
Oh yeah, if you're doing all that listening, you can probably ditch the books, at least a good part of the time...
# Posted on October 27th 2007 by kennedy
Re: Memorizing music
I'm with Kennedy, use your ears, to hear, more than yours eyes to memorize.
Unless you have memorized the tune and it's in your head, but you haven't quite memorized the finger patterns? (I have experienced this myself) Then it's just keep playing!
# Posted on October 27th 2007 by TuneTenderfoot
Re: Memorizing music
jemsmom - there have been some good suggestions here - especially about listening to as much irish music as you can get your hands on. There are also several web-sites to search out regarding backing guitar for Irish music. I think when you are exposed to how some great players do it, it will open up your ears quite a bit to some new msuical horizons. Don't worry, the melody's will start to become familair the more you do this - but your book is a crutch and you will eventually want to toss it. Reliance upon it will actually slow your progress.
What part of Western mass do you live in? I have family in Great Barrington...
# Posted on October 27th 2007 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: Memorizing music
Memorization doesn't come from trying to memorize the actual notes like you'd memorize a mathematical formula or poem. It comes from playing the same tune enough times that you can just do it without thinking about it.
You train your body to memorize the motions, not your brain to memorize the sheet music. The memory is in your hands, not your mind.
# Posted on October 27th 2007 by Marklar
Re: Memorizing music
Try this: Learn the first couple of bars of a tune first, then add another couple of bars, but always go back and recap. Don't add the next two bars until you can play the first four off pat, three times without any errors. Carry on like this for the whole tune. Try to allow your fingers to remember the tunes. Don't let your brain get in the way! Stay relaxed and tell yourself it is easy. The more you learn, the easier it will become.
# Posted on October 27th 2007 by Rob Millner
Re: Memorizing music
When you're listening to music, you might like to try to identify chords as you hear them.
The I (one), IV (4) & V(5)chords of tunes that are in a Major key are the easiest to hear in the beginning.
After that (still in a Major key) are the ii(minor 2), iii(minor 3) and vi(minor 6).
If you do enough of this, you might find yourself able to predict the chord changes after a while.
# Posted on October 27th 2007 by morning star
Re: Memorizing music
Learning > Memorizing
Cheers,
Armand
# Posted on October 27th 2007 by fiddlinviolinin
Re: Memorizing music
Well, memorizing is a part of learning. You can't learn to play a tune without memorizing it.
To know a tune means being able to play it from memory...you can't know how to play a tune if you have to have something to tell you how to play it. Granted, sheet music can be a handy reminder, but if you know the tune then that's all it is, just something to jog the memory.
# Posted on October 27th 2007 by Marklar
Re: Memorizing music
I don't think there are any secret shortcuts beyond the ones you'll hear over and over - practise, listen, learn by ear as much as possible, and be patient.
The only other suggestion I could make would be to invest in a whistle and really learn to play some tunes on that. If nothing else, it'll give you something to do at a session when three other guitarists are there working away when you come in, and with any luck it'll help your playing as well.
# Posted on October 27th 2007 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Memorizing music
Oh, and ignore the chords written out in your tunebooks. The most you can get from them is a pretty good guess as to what to overall key will be, and even there you can be led astray. Best to listen, and if you're not sure, play as little as possible and try to match the phrasing of the tune.
# Posted on October 27th 2007 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Memorizing music
Yeah, i often wonder what on earth these chords in some books are about? i mean are they listening to the same piece of music?
Excuse me but what does this mean?>>What is the sop on this?<<
# Posted on October 27th 2007 by jig
Re: Memorizing music
sop =Standard Operating Procedure ,military slang I think
# Posted on October 27th 2007 by bazouki dave and the real tooty flutey
Re: Memorizing music
well when i started trad i was dropped in at the deep end, I was given the chord patterns written down on a piece of card, taped these to the guitar and i was off and away,[ as long as the lights were on!] I picked the set up pretty quick mind you but i used this technique for a number of years, song chord patterns as well, even lyrics. little notes etc.
Having someone who knew the theory behind chord patterns in trad was a great blessing, there is a school of thought that thinks the chord patterns arnt as fixed in stone as the melody's, perhaps this is so, within certain limits, but as far as am concerned, these limits are quite clear.
Quite often there are 2 chords in a tune, say Am and G in the case of say the knotted cord. Others will have Amajor , Am and G ; farewell to Ireland.
Its the pattern that can be complicated,
The fiddlers fake book has good chord settings, the only book i can recomend.
Now learning the tunes is standard advice, This does not need to be done on a material instrument, though this certainly helps, but in the mind. If you can hum the tune....
Familiarity with a style of music is something that can only be achieved with time, it is not so much something you ' learn', as something you are/do.
good luck
# Posted on October 27th 2007 by jig
Re: Memorizing music
jemsmom: Yes, I have a problem with memorizing too. I can sing the tunes just fine, totally familiar with them, but that doesn't mean I can pick up a whistle and just play them by ear. My wee brain cannot grasp that I'm afraid . . . and people who play "by ear" just don't understand that. But basically, it comes down to "muscle memory" (in the fingers) -- just like a person who types at full speed. They are not really thinking about the letters, it's just by how each set of letters feels when you type it. Is that confusing enough? Repetition is the key I think.
# Posted on October 27th 2007 by justwhistle
Re: Memorizing music
Thanks to all who replied. SOP is "standard operating proceedure."
I am trying to build all my collections - cd and books. My first investment has been books.
Jusa Nutter Eejit - I'm about 1 1/2 hours from Great Barrington although I travel there on business monthly. There is a great music store there.
# Posted on October 27th 2007 by grumblingoldwoman
Re: Memorizing music
Yep, slow repetition without errors, repeating till correct pace has been achieved.
# Posted on October 27th 2007 by jig
Re: Memorizing music
A very respected fiddle tutor and band leader in Bristol says he practises a tune 200 times before he's sure he's got it.
# Posted on October 27th 2007 by lazyhound
Re: Memorizing music
Wow - that quick!
# Posted on October 27th 2007 by c.g.
Re: Memorizing music
This is bad, quoting myself ~
"Excuse me, could you please repeat that?"
Sorry Jem's Mom, I got hauled away or I would have explained that was a serious reply, if a bit tongue-in-cheek as well but 'a mini-mental status exam' might not be a bad idea... It was about 'repetition', and 'asking', as you've done here, putting yourself forward in search of some help. I did go through a barrage of tests not that long ago and found I had a short-term memory problem that was certified under that catch-all header dyslexia. It does explain some things, but without knowing it previously I have developed ways of working around my limitations there. The one good outcome of that is that my wife has become a little more patient with my memory problems.
Repetition ~ but not just repetition without reason. Structure it, break things up into parts, and ~ PLEASE! ~ LEARN MELODY!!! The worst 'accompanists', strummers or drummers, are those that haven't a clue there.
Realise your limitations ~ and ours too ~ you do not have to accompany everything, please, don't... Just master a few things at a time, and if they are all 3-chords, well, there's nothing wrong with that. A good 3-chord player is much more preferred to a bad multi-chordal have-a-bash-at-everything... It is good to listen, as others have been saying, and I am fully behind that, but it is also good to stop and spend time listening at sessions, whatever your instrument. You listen while you play, ideally, but we all should also occassionally put things away and not play and just listen, grow our appreciation. Again, already said, including to recordings... You will gain greater appreciation for reservation here, or not playing, than you will for struggling through and potentially dragging others down by not listening because you are following some prescribed set of chords written out before you. That kind of 'not listening' has no appreciation, except maybe in a workshop or in your own closet...figuratively speaking...
Many good suggestions have already been given. I have to agree without reservation, you gotta ditch the books. They should only ever be a guide, not a crutch, not the 'rule of law'... Don't fall back on the excuse that 'others do it'. That doesn't make it right. It's like choosing to use a cane as a lark and after awhile you find you're limping without it. The books aren't just a 'crutch', they will cripple your playing and interfere with your sensual connection to the music, direct contact, and that means as well with the other musicians and their music making... Besides, where chords or a string of dots or ABCs are concerned, or anything in print, they are only 'suggestions', a map maybe, but not the journey... They are bones without flesh and blood, lifeless. I can promise you, that lifelessness in music ruled by the sheet is obvious, it's shight... It is also rude, because you should be there with the others, not detracted by devoting a percentage of your attention to the proscribed as printed out, sterile ink on paper... Let it live, even if initially that is clumsy and stumbling like a newborn foal... Give it air, let it breath, don't let the paper smother the life out of it. It does, and that is obvious to those of us who do listen...
# Posted on October 27th 2007 by ceolachan
Re: Memorizing music
Screech said, ":You train your body to memorize the motions, not your brain to memorize the sheet music. The memory is in your hands, not your mind."
No. if you are playing the music via a memorized pattern that your hands/fingers make, that's no better than playing from a sheet of music. Your hands should be serving your memory of the tune which is lodged very firmly in your mind as a sound, not an exercise in dexterity.
# Posted on October 27th 2007 by llig leahcim
Re: Memorizing music
If I understand this correctly you learn music via the brains' conscious function. You come to 'know' & play each tune through the subconscious. These are two different states of mind through which we constantly go back & forth..
That's why you can get so many tunes in your head yet not remember all their names.
# Posted on October 27th 2007 by Random_notes
Re: Memorizing music
I've been thinking about this and though I accept that some people just have better memories than others, I reckon it really boils down to just one simple thing:
How much do you care?
I remember tunes because I love them. I sing and whistle them all day long (mostly just in my head - I'd get more than a bit annoying otherwise). Tunes tunes tunes, so many brilliant tunes. I really care a lot for them. They are precious gems in a world filled with mindless mediocrity, crass commercialism and inane idiocy. They are my default brainwaves, they are my wallpaper. They are abstract and intangible and yet, in some ways, the most real things in my head. They are not my bread and butter, they are better than that, they - sometimes quite literally - are my breath.
That's why I remember them.
# Posted on October 27th 2007 by llig leahcim
Re: Memorizing music
Yes. What Michael said in both of his posts. Spot on.
# Posted on October 27th 2007 by Will CPT
Re: Memorizing music
there's a memory tactic called chunking. take one stanza and memorize that, then the next, don't try to tackle the entire song at once.
# Posted on October 27th 2007 by WannabeWhistler
Re: Memorizing music
Michael, that's the best post ever.
# Posted on October 27th 2007 by kennedy
Re: Memorizing music
I can appreciate how it is for a beginner.
You start by loving traditional music & then you get in the session & it seems to be coming at you all at once.
As has been said before ~ good things take time.
Listen to the tunes every which way you can think of;
in session, on CDs, tape a session . .
If the session is too overwhelming try to find a kind soul who is willing to sit down with you & have a couple of mini-sessions.
We all have to take the time to make beautiful music.
# Posted on October 27th 2007 by Random_notes
Re: Memorizing music
I play from memory, and for about a year have been playing with a couple of groups of people who play solely from the sheets. As I'm not good enough to pick up a tune immediately by ear, the others think I'm remedial, and enthusiastically try to help by putting 'simple' pieces of music in front of me, urging me to read them (which I couldn't do fast enough, anyway.)
Only one or two of the others could manage to play anything at all without the sheets.
I've tried to make the 'hybrid' experience work for quite a while, for want of other 'ear' players of my level living close by, but I feel a parting of the ways is imminent.
However, I'm with Michael all the way on this, so, sadly, I think I'll just have to go back to ploughing the lonely furrow again. Just can't see a way round it.
# Posted on October 27th 2007 by P-K
Re: Memorizing music
Yes llig leahcim, definitely ~ and somewhere in the love of it and dancing to it ~ it becomes second nature, finds a comfortable place somewhere in the subconscious, bubbling up now and then into the conscious, by demand or on its own whim...
Be selective, and take things one at a time instead of all at once...play with them, sing them, dance to them, share them ~ all forms of listening and taking something to heart, as Michael says, definitely the best way to put something into the memory... Pain and discomfort work too, but in this case I'd go with pleasure, though there is pathos in the music too, those deeply sad parts, as well as the humourous and the playful... Emotion, feeling something, is definitely a great way to retain it, feel for it, give it emotional context, any context outside of just dots on paper...
# Posted on October 28th 2007 by ceolachan
As said before and worth a repeat ~ learn melody, know the tune... That will definitely aid you when it comes time to 'accompany' it...
# Posted on October 28th 2007 by ceolachan
Re: Memorizing music
The chord pattern is a definite entity in itself, simply knowing the tune wont automatically mean you know the chord pattern, It has to be figured out and learnt . Whether this is done by ear or by sight......
Really for a beginner, I think he should buy the fiddlers fake book and study the chord pattern of someone who really knows and understand the music. Use the chord patterns suggested for maybe 20 standareds with a whistler,fiddler etc, live or a recording, apply those 20 pattern to the tunes.Obviously what you want is a live musical partner.
I would suggest he doesn't deviate from the chord patterns in this book, taking the simpler version when given the choice, as you are sometimes. That 20 is your first set. repeat for second set, When you feel ready.
# Posted on October 28th 2007 by jig
Re: Memorizing music
Here is recent a comment which caught my eye about learning & remembering tunes;
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/14803/comments#comment305134
# Posted on October 28th 2007 by Random_notes
Re: Memorizing music
Playing the melody note by note is all well and good, but at some point ornament enters in. The only way I know to get into seriously ornamenting the tune after a couple of repititions is to know the tune well enough to know where you are, and as long as you are reading it, that won't happen.
The very best players can read and ornament simultaneously, but they are VERY few and far between, and we pay $30 a pop to see them.
In terms of traditional music, how you get there is your own business, but I have a real problem seeing music stands on the stage, unless it is orchestral music, and then the parts must be read, or you have a trainwreck. Have you ever seen the Chieftains or Stockton's Wing, etc use sheet music? The answer is "no", and it's because they have learned the tune, and just like the gentleman said, sometimes you have to play the bloody thing 200 times before you really have it.
Rythm guitar, now, is a different beast. Most of this depends on how much you play. There is no substitute to playing every day as far as developing/maintaining one's skill on an instrument. I have been playing professionally for 35 years or better, 4-6 nights a week frequently, and I can really feel it when I don't pick up an instrument (I play several) for longer than a couple of days-takes a few hours/days of hard work to get back up to speed, like anything else you do. Most Celtic tunes are not necessarily harmonically complex, but the popular modes of accompniant is open and frequently DADGAD tuned (John Doyle is a good example of this). Most of the tunes in O'Neil's are not notated for chords, and you can make it as complex and rich as you like. Gilman Carver of Van Dieman's Band is pretty good at this....
I also like the idea of the Fake Book-a time honored tradition amongst pro musicians since the 30's. As long as you have a good basic working knowledge of music, this is the only shortcut I know of, but you should still memorize the tunes, just to be legit in the folk sense. I have been playing folk music as long as I have been playing, and the traditional way is to get it by ear. (Better known as the Folk Process, through which the music is alive and changing)
# Posted on October 28th 2007 by David Paul Campbell
Re: Memorizing music
To me , the method used in learning, sight or ear, is a different issue to remembering.
But the long term memory where we put these tunes can, over time degrade. so tunes learnt 20 yrs ago by ear, with no visual recored can, from my experience simply get lost in the archives of my mind, Oh for a good librarian!
The concept of actually using sheet music as #the# method of 'knowing' a tune i have to admit is completely alien to me.
Even the top 'classical' people will learn the tunes. And some of the tunes these people know are longer than 16 bars! Try getting them by ear!
Untill you can play a piece without the dots you havnt even started stage 1 of 'knowing the tune.
I learn't my tunes for 15 yrs by ear before i learnt to read, so i have experience of both methods.
I consider both methods to be useful. Playing by ear means i can generally pick up a tune second time round, well, with the simpler tunes.But reading the dots can make life so much simpler,
Just playing from the dots can also disable a number of important musical skills,Too many trained musicians simply lack the ability to improvise.
Its a matter of forging neural pathways, as these pathways are formed . like a river valley formed by the rain, the potential to cut other neural routes is diminished by the depth of those formed. Good habits are important to develop from the beginning. Allowing the full potential to develop.
Good to have you on board Mr Campbell.
# Posted on October 28th 2007 by jig
Re: Memorizing music
Running with Michael's point about living and breathing the tunes: this has to be the key to remembering- actually caring about the tunes themselves individually, not just how to play them.
It perplexes me that some people who play this music are apparently unable to sing, hum or whistle any of the tunes they play more than competently with the dots in front of them. At first sight, this seems a disconnected, clinical approach to the music- it's not as if they were symphony length after all.
On the other hand, I had a fiddle teacher once who couldn't sing a note, so maybe that is a problem for some.
Personally, I also like to be able to put a name to tunes, as I do to people, as I find that helps me remember what they are like.
# Posted on October 28th 2007 by P-K
Re: Memorizing music
An illustration of a danger of playing from the dots - when you already know the tune:
A couple of months ago I was at a workshop for playing for set-dancers. Because the attendees were from a wide area, so weren't necessarily familiar with local tunes, or were perhaps used to playing for kinds of set-dancing other than Irish, the only way the workshop could work was by playing from the dots.
The problem started for me in the afternoon session when we got round to playing for live set-dancers. I already had in my head about 75% of the 90-odd tunes we had worked on in the morning read-through session. When I found myself with the dots of those tunes in front of me when I was playing for the dancers it turned out to be very distracting. I was slowing down and making silly mistakes. The only solution was to move the music stand away out of focus and then everything was ok. The dots must have been interfering with my memory recall processing.
# Posted on October 28th 2007 by lazyhound
Re: Memorizing music
What gets me is the differing settings, if i know one setting then have another in front of me in dots, the dots confuse me . I have found that a few times on this site where the settings displayed differ a lot from the version i know.
I guess this is the same or similar thing to your situation lazy.
# Posted on October 28th 2007 by jig
Re: Memorizing music
By strange coincidence, I was occupying the seat next to lazyhound on that occasion. As a true gentleman, he makes no mention of having been put off his stroke by the idiot next to him, who was struggling to keep up with the pace on the few pieces he thought he knew- and, like himself, not playing from the dots.
# Posted on October 28th 2007 by P-K
Re: Memorizing music
I don't mean to be a wet blanket, but unless you’re already a seriously accomplished guitar player, accompaniment is a tough entry point into this music. I know that strumming chords from a book can get you into the folkie songwriter scene or an American old-time session, but this music is very different and requires a lot of knowledge and understanding on the part of the guitar player. As Sir Llig keeps saying, you have to know the tune. You also have to know the guitar.
It would even be fair to say you need to know the tune better than the melody players. You have to know where the tune is going, but you also need to know when to avoid a full chord and use a two-note drone or a single note or silence, when to play a line that briefly harmonizes the melody, when a tune is right for dense extended chords, how to underscore the tension and release that are the heart of some tunes, and on and on. And, of course, none of this matters if you haven’t mastered the rhythmic groove.
If you don’t want to take up the whistle, learn the tunes on the guitar. Not necessarily to play at tempo, but to understand where the tune lies with respect to the guitar strings. Then you can start to find your own way of supporting the tune and it’ll grow organically as you live with it.
# Posted on October 29th 2007 by Bob himself
Re: Memorizing music
There is an issue of accompanying Irish tunes if one does not know the tune(s). .. But isn't it true there are several diddly tunes which are easy to absorb & for which a few chords could work? Even 2 note chords. Not to say a beginning sessioneer could join on every tune; but there might be a starting point. Say ~ "Rolling in the Rye Grass" ~ or some from Dow's list.
BTW even a pennywhistler should master the rhythmic groove. That should be universal.
# Posted on October 29th 2007 by Tonya
Re: Memorizing music
Bob I just reread your post.
Once I got past the arrogant 1st paragraph the following part was extremely good advice. You are right accompaniment is quite a process.
# Posted on October 29th 2007 by Tonya
Re: Memorizing music
Dear Bob. I disagree with Tonya about the first Para. It is the truth. The marvels and wonders of actually studying the tunes on guitar cannot be surpassed. The possibilities are endless and,in the process of familiarising yourself with the tune,you can utilise the natural polyphony of the instrument for effects to lift the tune.
A technique I like for memorising tunes is slowing them down on media player and hear the microscopic detail of the rhythmic devices and ornamentation of say a really good box player. I in fact spent most of the day yesterday doing that with anold PJ Hernon recording and it was a revelation to hear how much is going on in just one bar of music to produce "that" sound.
Study it. Its fun. Don't be frightened of the detail.
# Posted on October 29th 2007 by chuneboi slim
Re: Memorizing music
I agree, Bob's first par is about as far from arrogant as I could imagine.
And I agree, the devil is in the detail. Though while it can be interesting (and revalationary to someone who doesn't know the music) to listen to some dense playing slowed down, I'd advise against the habit of it. A good deal of the so called decorations and grace notes in this music have timings of their own that operate independently of the tune's tempo. A lot of the little flicks and cuts and taps etc do not slow down if you play slower, and don't speed up if you play faster. You will not appreciate this if you listen to the music artificially slowed down.
The difference between a slow roll and a fast roll, for example have little to do with speed. It's all about timing and placement. You HAVE TO absorb the music at live speed to get it.
# Posted on October 29th 2007 by llig leahcim
Re: Memorizing music
Well bob and i obviously disagree on a number of points, harmonizing runs, dense extended chords are the first two to come to mind.As, for me, they have no place in Irish music, though i see them being done quite a lot.
I have noticed other guitar players listening to this 'modern' approach assuming that this is ' the' way to go.
It ia hard as guitarists to really be clear as to what is acceptable and what is not. Especially as there are so many opinions on the matter, one for every fiddler , piper and tune player!
The bottom line is ; do the people you play with and listen to your music accept your approach.?
To satisfy everyone is impossible. We are not all obliged to satisfy the old trad players who might even condemn the guitar as an instrument in ITM! let alone the style of playing and chordal patterns.
For the record, i would not even consider a 7th let alone a 9th or 13th!
As a fiddler i play in a chordal fashion, Using double stops and drones, the tunes are constantly implying chords and patterns.
As far as i am concerned , extending these is unwelcome and can to my mind, interfere with the tune's statements.These extensions are, i think, a modern jazz concept . The ears of most people in the west are trained to understand these musical concepts and so i imagine they will perhaps, become standard .
I am certainly not saying i am right and the others are wrong, far from it. Its all a matter of the context within which the music is judged/enjoyed.
I think we both agree totally that the thorough knowledge of a tune is a pre-requisite to a full, and accomplished accompaniment.
However i personally feel that a beginner can do the job well enough,as long as they have the correct chord patterns. I would much rather play with someone who has an open mind, isn't all ready sure they know all there is to know in this field, who is ready to learn, than some one who knows enough to be dangerous but not enough to really have it.
As an aside this art form requires a large degree of basic, simple copying. WE copy the tunes. I suggest you copy the chord patterns.
After many years we reach a level where we can branch out and apply more individual touches to that which we learnt.
After many more we can cut our own groove, create totally original tunes and patterns based on the thorough understanding we have achieved through the study of the tradition.
# Posted on October 29th 2007 by jig
Re: Memorizing music
Too true Sir Michael.
The more I read Bob's post the more his humility reveals itself.
At what point would it be appropriate for a guitarist to attempt accompaniment?
# Posted on October 29th 2007 by Tonya
Re: Memorizing music
Can you play;Am.G. Em. D. A? Plus Bm and C? Can you strum; 6/8, and 4/4 rhythms? Well then, you can start.
Its not the chords, its the patterns.
Like the tunes, theres nothing complicated as far as notes go, Ist position, simple major and modal scales, the patterns however!
# Posted on October 29th 2007 by jig
Re: Memorizing music
Thanks jig. I think there is some very good information provided in this thread.
I get the part about learning the tune 1st.
However, jemsmom mentioned something which has not been discussed quite so clearly;
"I am trying to listen for the chord changes. But, in some tunes, you can fake some chords but the written tune is sometimes much richer with more chords."
I am a melody player but I often get the impression that with backing less is more. It might help to emphasize that point. At least for players trying to learn the actual accompaniment.
# Posted on October 29th 2007 by Tonya
Re: Memorizing music
I would agree, what bugs me is players who insist that This bit is Am or F , when everything the tune says is G. In a simple Am reel, I would play Am and G, if Am doesnt sound right, you can either play G or silence.
I think this is a crucial point, if your not sure, shut up.
You have to be sure. You have to know what you are doing.
Finding a reliable source of chord patterns and memorizing them is the way i entered this genre.
I honestly can think of no other method that will reliably allow even a skilled guitarist to play trad. OK working out the chords yourself, but how will you be able to do this without a grounding learnt from an expert?
Its a way of looking at things, a position of view, Until you can look at the music through the eyes of someone who knows it you will forever be viewing it as an outsider, trying to superimpose your preconceived ideas of how to improve it!
Listen it doesn't need 'improving' , it doesn't need to be jazzed up, It doesn't 'need 'the guitar at all! It is a complete craft in itself. Our job is to support the melody.
''We are the sea the surfers surf upon, We need to create a reliable wave, not something the tune can not sit upon, the tune players need to know you will be there, at the same point of the tune that they are at, reliable , it is not our place to be experimenting, trying out new tricks, new chords.''.
Its all in the listening, and the fluidity you can change between chords, this speed is essential in the backing of trad, A simple Am reel can change chord as quickly as the melody changes notes. there must be an immediate response to the melody.Its all in the listening and response time.
There is no other form of music that i know of that will give you an insight into this style.
Any how glad to get that off my chest rant rant!
# Posted on October 29th 2007 by jig
Re: Memorizing music
"At what point would it be appropriate for a guitarist to attempt accompaniment?" asks Tonya. That's an easy one, when they know the tune.
Jig states the obvious (I'm not knocking it, some people here need the obvious stating from time to time):
"Until you can look at the music through the eyes of someone who knows it you will forever be viewing it as an outsider"
So, of course, if you know it, then there is no problem. And the real question is, "how do you get away with strumming to these tunes if you don't know the music?"
Personally, I refuse to entertain that question. Preferring instead to ask, "Should one even attempt to get away with strumming to these tunes if you don't know the music?"
# Posted on October 30th 2007 by llig leahcim
Re: Memorizing music
By copying note for note, or in this case chord by chord, of someone who does know the music.
How else can anyone learn trad?
MY answer to your second question is a resounding no.
However learning a set of 20 tunes and playing them with a fiddler will let you be part of the music. It wont automatically mean you can sit in any session anywhere but at least you will have a clue.
It is simply a case of one tune at a time. building up over the years until one day you will have a couple of hundred tunes.
Melody or chord, is pretty irrelevant, they are both part of the music.
Just as it takes years to pick up tunes on the fly it also takes years to pick up the chords on the fly.
How many years depends on the individual and their dedication and aptitude.
# Posted on October 30th 2007 by jig
Re: Memorizing music
Jig. You should be able to see the chords through picking the tune, but I agree with getting someone else's chords if you can't do that yet.
Adios , Slim!
P.S. I'm thinking of starting a thread, "
Does Fma7 have a place in Irish music.
Answer. Not in the key of Am anyway!
On second thoughts a thread like this is not a good idea.
# Posted on October 30th 2007 by chuneboi slim
Re: Memorizing music
I dont know about 'should' slim!
I cant automatically play the chord pattern to a tune i know, i have to figure it out , either by playing allong [mostly] or thinking about it. In fact knowing the tune, and knowing i 'should' be able to figure it out straight away can actually get in the way!
I figure its the left brain tripping up the right.
# Posted on October 30th 2007 by jig
Re: Memorizing music
Welcome to TheSession
jemsmom93
# Posted on October 30th 2007 by Tonya
Re: Memorizing music
I wasn't necessarally talking about spontaneous backing. I can't do that most times either. I was talking about premeditated backings. Picking the tune out slowly and hearing or seeing the patterns via the shape of the melody.
Its very clear what chord is what after doing that. Slim!
# Posted on October 30th 2007 by chuneboi slim
Re: Memorizing music
Gosh, I certainly didn't mean to be arrogant. I play Irish tunes on the guitar, but I rarely do accompaniment because I'm not very good at it. It's a different path from playing melody and to do it at a level that would be satisfying to me would require a committment similar to learning a new instrument. I have a fair understanding of how chords and rhythms work, but that's a far cry from being fluent in the language of accompaniment.
And, btw, I'm not advocating specific things like harmonized runs or extended chords. I'm just saying that if you want to use those tools, you need to understand how to use them appropriately (and without irritating the melody players).
# Posted on October 30th 2007 by Bob himself
Re: Memorizing music
well youd likely iritate this melody player!
But im always willing to keep my mind open, If you think you can make it work then i will give you the benefit of the doubt,.... for a while!
Fair enough slim, thats true enough.
As far as backing on the fly goes, your ear needs to be attuned to the intervals between chords and notes, A change in key from D to G , or D to Bm etc needs to be instantly recognized, such as with tunes in 2 keys .
Often enough with me i know the tune, either as a backer of melody player, However there are so many tunes ! !
In different regions there will be local tunes and favorite tunes that are not common else where. This can make backing on the fly difficult for even the best of us.
Like i say, learn the chord patterns, each tune has its own. Know the tunes, the names, common sets, etc
But at the end of the day its experience 'doing it' that counts.
With backing this can only be achieved by.... wait for it..... backing! You need a sympathetic tune player and the right chords. Once again i recomend the fiddlers fake book for a reliable and accurate source of chord patterns , Im not saying this is where i learnt, it isnt, but the settings there are relatively uncomplicated and accurate.
good luck
enjoy
# Posted on October 30th 2007 by jig