Hey there, I'm moving to Ireland after Christmas and I'd like your advice about sessions. They always confuse me a lot.
After reading different session etiquettes, I start believing that I should avoid all sessions.
The thing is, I love Irish trad music and I'd love to learn to play Irish trad music. I've listened A LOT to Irish music over the years so it is not new to me. I've played the mandolin for a long time and I can play some Irish tunes (have played mostly bluegrass and oldtime lately though) but not up to speed. At the moment I have no mandolin that is good enough to use in a session (can't hear myself, simply useless). I am learning to play the tin whistle and the bouzouki which is what I really prefer to play Irish music with. The bouzouki mailny because I can play back-up and the whistle because it's a nice instrument easy to get started with and you can hear yourself in a session.
But, when I read about sessions, it seems beginners aren't welcome, but that you have to be able to play well otherwise you aren't welcome.
I don't learn by listening, maybe I can learn how it's supposed to sound, but I only learn to play by playing, and trying to join in. I have no intention to disturb, only sit somewhere on the outside of the circle and trying to join in and learn their tunes.
Is this ok or not? Otherwise, what else? Should I sit at home and play on my own for years until I'm good enough to be in a session?
At oldtime jams, I join in on the bits I can play and after a while I can play most of the tune, and noone is offended. I learn a lot on oldtime jams for this reason, and have a lot of fun too.
What do you say?
And, where are there open sessions in Cork?
The only way you can work out the etiquette for a session is to turn up, watch, listen, and talk to some of the participants. Chances are, sooner or later someone will invite you to play, by which point you will have already established yourself as someone sensitive to the session. Go for it.
"I don't learn by listening, maybe I can learn how it's supposed to sound, but I only learn to play by playing, and trying to join in. I have no intention to disturb, only sit somewhere on the outside of the circle and trying to join in and learn their tunes."
Sometimes it's possible, sometimes not. You need a little recording device, so that you can go back home and then play along with as well, without disturbing others.
At least some sessions are (more inviting). Ask about beginner sessions or "slow sessions": this kind exists, albeit not everywhere. I have kind of the same difficulties as you described, and when I chanced upon such a session, it was a gratifying experience.
(If any of you guys at The Bent Mast - or you at The Quiet Man - is reading this, thank you again!)
Don't give up the mandolin - it too often gets sidelined as a 'beginner's instrument' or a 'second instrument' for fiddlers and banjo players. It'\s inaudibility in a session, whilst it may put you at a disadvantage, it also has its benefits, in that it allows you to feel your way around unfamiliar tunes without putting off your fellow musicians. Hearing yourself in a session is something that you learn to do as your ear becomes more finely tuned - a good mandolin would help, though.
As regards 'ettiquette', don't go charging in like a rhino on heat. Be respectful of the other musicians, no matter how good or bad they sound to you. You'll undoubtedly make a few small gaffes - you're human. But so are the other musicians - human enough, one would hope, to either politely ignore your faux-pas or offer you friendly advice. I would add that I think this applies just as much to all other areas of life as it does to sessions, when moving to a new country. The social conventions, ways of communicating, humour, taboos etc. will all be subtly different.
If I believed everything that was said here about sessions I would be afraid to go too.
In reality they are much more welcoming than they are made out to be here.
I stress that I can only speak about the sessions I’ve been to, but its not some ancient fraternity where inauguration occurs only when a 'potential' has learned and mastered 17 instruments and can play 6000000 tunes while reading ‘An Táin’ and dancing a slip jig in the forest without breaking a twig on the ground….
No... sessioneers around here are people who like to play trad… but the main part is that they are people..
There are pricks and bollixes as well as some of the soundest people you will ever meet.
Like anything else in life. Sus them out for yourself. I am sure you will be pleasantly surprised.
Slow sessions may be useful if there are a large number of beginners that want the chance to play their repertoire without holding back the more experienced musicians. But personally, I think there is more to be gained by sitting in on a 'grown-up' session, showing due deference to the better musicians, joining in when you can and sitting back and listening the rest of the time.
"I don't learn by listening"
Zouk - You probably do, even if you don't realise it - and if you don't you should. There is much to be gained by getting the tunes into your head before you even try playing them. If you've not been to many sessions yet, when you hear the tunes you already know, you'll probably be amazed at how different they sound when played by somebody else. Style is something you can only learn by listening.
Beginners and all welcome at our session at IAANJ in NJ. While it is appreciated if you don't noodle and hunt and peck on tunes you don't know, when it's your turn to start something, you can do it at your own pace, and we'll keep to your speed and not care if you make a mistake. Best to record the sessions and go home to practice to them. No one was born playing fast, it's gradual, everyone started in the same place.
Look, zouk, to play in a session, you need to either know the tunes, or back on your zouk. To back you either need to know the tunes or know enough of the tunes to 'ham it'.
My honest suggestion, would be to try and meet up with another trad musician who will be patient and help you learn the tunes/backing to those tunes. Tasteful backers are valuable people, whatever you might read here.
I would hazard a guess that most sessions in a public place will be of a reasonably high standard. To play in these sesh's you also need to be a reasonably high standard
Now whether you will be welcome depends on many factors. your musical ability just one of these.
Spend a few weeks just checking out the sessions and folk who play in them.
But really, what is it you want? To play trad, or to play with other people?
For me the primary factor is playing trad. whether i play with others or not is a side issue.
I would suggest learning say a dozen tunes and playing these till you are pretty good at them.Rather than having 50 tunes, none of which you play well.
I always suggest slow airs. A slow air played well is a beautiful thing. That is what i, as a musician want to hear, and to play. Something of beauty. Now achieving that can take many years.
I would never in a million years try and put someone off, i encourage you to practice at home.
"try and meet up with another trad musician who will be patient and help you learn the tunes/backing to those tunes."
In a city like Cork, where traditional music is so ubiquitous, you are bound to make *friends* (as opposed to solely musical acquaintances) who happen to be trad musicians, who will enjoy your company on a personal as well as musical level, will be happy to help you learn and will 'tell it like it is'.
Go to the session and try to pick up the tunes . Play along.
Your'e playing a melody instrument anyway, enjoy yourself.
You sound like your'e not the type to go running roughshod over proceedings if you don't now the tunes. Everyone else learns them by playing along mostly, why shouldn't you?
A very wise young friend of mine who frequents this site told me that he found that the wrong messages can be conveyed by the mere nature of written text . Often what we read in these posts is not intended to be as condescending as it may sound, but people still get outraged and discouraged, which I do on a regular basis. The sessions where you would feel unwelcome are probably not worth going to anyway.
(This advise, however, does not apply to backers).
As to your inaudible mandolin - I keep mentioning the Red Henry-pattern mandolin bridges ( also may be fitted to mandolas and 'zouks ). These improve both volume and tone of the instrument. I ended up making my own, and modifying the design for the wider soundboard of my 'zouk, and much enjoy the improvement ( unlike my daughter, who can't bear to be in the same room when I'm practising 'cause she says it's too loud ).
Try googling for him, he's also on the Comando site, which is for mandolin-players.
A mandolin need not be quiet. You could even try a resonator mandolin, they ARE noisy !
You can't expect to understand all the nuances that should exist in Irish music without listening listening and listening.I've been living with the same tunes for years and keep finding something fresh in them.
Aquiring traditional music skills and knowledge and interperatation can not by its nature be an instantaenous process.Just take time to learn a few tunes in your head .transfer them to the mandolin aand then chance joining in.
If you try tunes you dont know you will only frustrate musicians that have put work in practising their music which you should be able to enjoy listening to.
+
zoukgirl, if you want permission to just sit in sessions and noodle around, you have already gotten it here.
However, to be more comfortable and respectful of a session you could end up at, you need to record their tunes and learn their tunes.
Dissonant backing, random noodling and a sense of entitlement that you are conveying will aggravate other people in the session.
Not sure what part of the world you are from, but just "playing in the session" rather than learning Irish traditional music is not always an end in itself, but one way to share tunes with your musical friends. You are right to pick up that you might not be "welcomed", that very well could be true, so take it to heart!
Don't believe everything you read here. In the real world, people are much more welcoming than in cyberspace. And I bet some of the same people who are curmudgeons here are some of the nicest people out in the real world. When approaching a new session, always go and listen first, then talk to the participants, and then bring your instrument and ask permission before starting to play--a little communications goes a long way in smoothing the entry into a new session.
And enjoy all the new things your travel will bring to your life!
Honestly, why is "welcoming" the most important characteristic of a session?
Everyone has a different measure of comfort in any social situation. Some extroverts need continual chat, some introverts want to be left alone.
We do a disservice by sending someone out to ask permission to play when they don't know any tunes, as she admittedly doesn't? Why is that element of participation quite so important, why not woodshed at home a bit?
Curmudgeons? No, just realists, trying to help someone not wade in and alienate sessioneers that may have known each other and been playing together for years!
She is looking for us to all tell her she should just go ahead and play, why go to IRELAND if you are not willing to learn how and why they play the music?
Whoa, I'm not Al but I'm fairly sure he didn't say failte is the most important characteristic of a session.
...and he also said that she should go and listen first, introduce herself, feel it out, etc.
I'd also wager she's thoroughly chastised at this point (or one would hope) and will take to soaking up the tunes at whatever session she finds herself.
Unless that's not her goal, to play tunes or learn them to back them properly, in which case, the 'telling her to forget it' crowd is spot-on...a bit harsh, but hey, that's the mustard board for ya.
Now go get ‘em, zoukgirl, soak away! Maketh thy ears and brain like the sponge!
Any how Al, i dont know about you but a lot of the sessions ive attended are not automatically welcoming of all and sundry with an instrument in hand!In fact anything but... First you have to prove yourself.
Once the initial hurdles are overcome, then you will be welcome.
And if you fall at the first, well then go home and practice some more!
Its not a free for all jam session. Be warned.
Guys, please, slow down and look again at what I said (and thanks SWFL--you saw what I was trying to get at). zoukgirl obviously needed to be warned about noodling and other unsavory habits. But she had also gotten the impression from this board that she shouldn't go to a session at all. That is NOT what we should be about--folk music belongs to folks, and we should not be turning them away, instead we should be pointing them in the right direction.
Now, I did not say every session should welcome every individual of every skill level without reservation--note that I told her not to jump in right away, but visit and talk first. If a newbie comes to a session to listen, talks to the folks involved, she learns about them, and they learn about her, things can move in the right direction. They can give her advice on what tunes they play the most so she can learn them, she can tell them what she knows, and maybe they can slow down to let her play along with a tune or two once in a while until she gets her feet under her.
There is a difference between welcoming and having standards--they are not mutually exclusive. If you are polite and considerate of others, you can be welcoming and maintain standards at the same time.
I think NCRC nailed it, but I will reword it a bit. Most sessions are generally open and welcoming to people that are courteous in return. Beginners are often welcomed as long as they know their limitations, and act in a way that is non-intrusive. If you're an interesting person, who is fun to spend time with, then you should fit right in! And that makes those people more apt to *help* you develop into a person who is fun to play tunes with.
Most of the negativity on this forum is directed toward people who are at least somewhat clueless. If you're an experienced oldtime player, and come in and try playing Irish tunes in an oldtime style, and don't have enough awareness of how inappropriate it is, then you won't be as welcome, of course!
Ever session has its own quirks and individual characteristics. Go with an open mind, an open ear, and a friendly attitude, and you'll be fine! The only real way to become good at doing it is by doing it. You would only do yourself more harm by staying home to practice for years upon end, because you would develop your own habits and your own style, which probably wouldn't groove with what any given session would like. And you still wouldn't have any experience with the interactive "etiquette" elements of playing with other people.
So get out there and do it! Just be polite and open minded, and you'll soon be as hooked as the rest of us
I think I understand what she means by she learns by playing not by listening. I feel the same way. I wanted to attend a session at the beginning of my learning experience because I didn't want to get bad habits from always playing all alone. It pushes me to play the way the others are playing. If all I do is listen to them, I don't get half as much knowledge about how to play as when I also try to play along.
I have found that thesession.org is where grumpy people go to complain and real sessions are not so bad as it seems from reading these grumpy people. If it were me, I'd attend a session with an instrument ready but be prepared not to bring it out if it didn't seem I would be welcome.
My first session I didn't bring an instrument (because I did not have one) but I asked if I could bring one in the future and they asked me a few questions to try to figure out where my head was at, and then said I was welcome to play. I think they thought I might have an instrument out in my car, but I really didn't have one yet so I just listened.
I'd just like to point out that the grumps here are actually outnumbered by people like Pete (Reverend), Al, sbhikes, SWL fiddler, Guernsey Pete, Iris, NCRC, proinsiasura, wounded hussar, and on and on, who unfailingly offer constructive, friendly suggestions and encouragement.
Yes, there are grumpy people in Irish music, just as there are in any community of people. But just like here, they're usually outnumbered by friendly folks. Remember that when you walk into your first session.
Shikes,and reverand, Why do you want to play the way others are playing? |Ok i know that to be sociable and join in this helps. But what i would say is that developing a distinctive personal style is ,at least for me, an important art of my music. If we all sound alike....
Each area will have its own settings and tunes. I do not relish the day when every session plays the same tunes, the same settings etc.
I know there is a school of thought her at the session that playing along in the 'background' is acceptable, But for me, this kind of thing just bugs me. I know im not PC in this and may well get e-slapped, but thats my feeling on the matter and i have a right to express it. I am not suggesting that we should all practice at home for decades before joining in, but that a certain level has to be achieved before joining in an 'open' sesh. Not in quantity of tunes but in quality. a few tunes nicely played is enough.
If you here a tune you like, ask the name, hopefully someone will know it, and learn the bones at home. or record the sesh and do it that way.
Half of the enjoyment is in listening to the wonderful music, does it really matter whether you are playing or not?
I know we all like to be part of the craic, but as far as i am concerned the folk listening are as much a part of that as the folk playing.
This is the peoples music, for and by the people. Any artificial dividing line drawn between players and listeners is just that: artificial.
There's a difference between developing your own style in a session setting and developing one completely on your own without playing with other people.
I am not trying to advocate becoming a cookie cutter musician, that sounds just like every other musician. I was just saying that if you spend all your time playing on your own, you're not learning how to play with other people. And subsequently, your personal style may not work well in a session setting...
I think we're miles and miles away from zoukgirl developing her own style. Give the poor lassie some time! She's got plenty to fret about, pun fully intended.
Zoukgirl: Do not be daunted, there is a session out there just waiting for you to join in and eventually fit in! To reiterate what some have already suggested above, I will share this:
When I hear of a session and think I might like to "visit", I go there on session night to have a pint and listen. Not to play, because it might not be open to all right from the start, or it might not even be what I expected at all when I arrive. Here is what I have in mind:
1. I go to observe (What do they do and how do they do it?),
2. I go listen to their repertoire (do I know even one bloody tune they play?)
3. I go to meet some of them, and, if invited, join in.
4. Fact is, I actually do enjoy listening to this music almost as much as playing it, so I win either way. (ILessee -- Irish music, pints, relaxating in a public house -- well, sure hurts to be me tonight, eh?)
While you are at it, check out a certain Zen koan about keeping your cup empty, so that you are ready when someone wants to fill it.
Wear a T-shirt saying "I love Sean Og" and you will be ok. Do not wear a Kerry or Kilkenny sports top.
These things matter in Cork, life and death. Music is for fun and enjoyment, so just go along and join in. I will not insult you and treat you like a moron with no social skills by offering advice. I assume you are house trained.
I must say that I'm deeply impressed by the number of replies that were added during the time I was at work!!
Thank you all for good advice and encouragement. There are so many things I wanted to comment, so I'll see if I do remember it all.
Firstly, when I say that I don't learn by listening, I don't mean that I don't listen. I listen to LOADS of Irish trad music and I've been to lots of sessions (mostly in Ireland, some in Sweden where I live now) so I've heard a lot of tunes and I've played through lots of tunes too but there are only a few that I can play ok. I learn a lot by listening at home, but I think it's hard to learn from a session, more than learning what they do and what tunes they play. I'll try the advice to bring a recording device, that must be a good way to remember what tunes they play.
My intention is to learn to play good Irish traditional music AND to play with others. Everybody says that the best way to learn to play is to play with others, so that's why I want to do it. Here in Sweden I play with an oldtime band (but we also do some Irish music) and I attend a bluegrass jam sometimes which is very nice. I've improved a lot since I found people to play with, even if at the beginning it was only my boyfriend.
I think the most realistic goal is to learn to back well on the bouzouki because I can't play anything yet up to speed anyway, and the sound of the bouzouki just takes my breath away and makes my feet start moving. Besides, there are way too few female zouk players....
I want to find a bouzouki teacher as soon as I arrive to Ireland (and would like to find someone who can teach whistle too, if I have time for both) to give me pointers and help. Until then I'm using Zan McLeod's DVD.
Actually if the sessions I visit have bouzouki players, I think could probably learn a lot from them just by listening. There are so many things in bouzouki playing that I just haven't thought of.
I didn't need to have your permission to go and noodle on a session, but I wanted your opinion on what is ok to do "out there". I'm glad to hear so many of you say that the reality is so much better than cyberspace... I'm definitely no session destroyer, I'm a humble, nice and courteous lady and I'm there to learn and enjoy the music, I don't need others to hear me before I can play well.
About the mandolin, that Red Henry bridge sounds interesting, but does he make them for both flat tops and F-style type mandolins? (stupid question, when I come to think of it, since he's a bluegrass player himself)
I have plans to buy a better mandolin as soon as I have the finances for one, I'm in contact with an excellent mandolin builder in Denmark that I will order from, his mandolins are simply wonderful.
By the way who is Sean Og? (my guess a football player???)
Does anyone know where they have open sessions in Cork? Most sessions I visited seemed quite closed. But really, I only remember An Spailpín Fánac and An Síol Broin (sorry I'm not sure about the spelling).
Well, I've probably written too much already but it seemed I was a bit unclear in my first post. Again, thank you everyone for kind advice!!
Lingpupa, we'll live in Cork City if we go to live in Cork, but we'll probably get a car. My husband used to live in Clonakilty and knows about a really nice open session there but we're open to all suggestions!
Zan McLeod's DVD is great and if you master that your flying it.Cork is grand just learn how to listen to people talking very fast. There s open sessions every night ,And some nice bouzouki players Check out the ceile allstars they have a great bouzouki player Eoin.Check out the clip of them playing here http://www.myspace.com/ceiliallstars
They have a session every Wed. in The Slainte bar I love it and if they can put up with me calling in they'll put up with anyone
Sean Og, footballer AND hurler, worshiped by all in Cork. Fermanagh father, Fijian mother, handsome looking devil, with two equally talented and handsome brothers, one now playing Aussie rules in Australia.
Sessions...........again (I guess)
Sessions...........again (I guess)
Hey there, I'm moving to Ireland after Christmas and I'd like your advice about sessions. They always confuse me a lot.
After reading different session etiquettes, I start believing that I should avoid all sessions.
The thing is, I love Irish trad music and I'd love to learn to play Irish trad music. I've listened A LOT to Irish music over the years so it is not new to me. I've played the mandolin for a long time and I can play some Irish tunes (have played mostly bluegrass and oldtime lately though) but not up to speed. At the moment I have no mandolin that is good enough to use in a session (can't hear myself, simply useless). I am learning to play the tin whistle and the bouzouki which is what I really prefer to play Irish music with. The bouzouki mailny because I can play back-up and the whistle because it's a nice instrument easy to get started with and you can hear yourself in a session.
But, when I read about sessions, it seems beginners aren't welcome, but that you have to be able to play well otherwise you aren't welcome.
I don't learn by listening, maybe I can learn how it's supposed to sound, but I only learn to play by playing, and trying to join in. I have no intention to disturb, only sit somewhere on the outside of the circle and trying to join in and learn their tunes.
Is this ok or not? Otherwise, what else? Should I sit at home and play on my own for years until I'm good enough to be in a session?
At oldtime jams, I join in on the bits I can play and after a while I can play most of the tune, and noone is offended. I learn a lot on oldtime jams for this reason, and have a lot of fun too.
What do you say?
And, where are there open sessions in Cork?
# Posted on October 25th 2007 by zoukgirl
Re: Sessions...........again (I guess)
The only way you can work out the etiquette for a session is to turn up, watch, listen, and talk to some of the participants. Chances are, sooner or later someone will invite you to play, by which point you will have already established yourself as someone sensitive to the session. Go for it.
# Posted on October 25th 2007 by robharper
Re: Sessions...........again (I guess)
"I don't learn by listening, maybe I can learn how it's supposed to sound, but I only learn to play by playing, and trying to join in. I have no intention to disturb, only sit somewhere on the outside of the circle and trying to join in and learn their tunes."
Sometimes it's possible, sometimes not. You need a little recording device, so that you can go back home and then play along with as well, without disturbing others.
# Posted on October 25th 2007 by the wounded hussar
Re: Sessions...........again (I guess)
Just get stuck in. Most sessions are a lot more inviting than many of the discussions here. Nothing to fear!
Enjoy!
# Posted on October 25th 2007 by proinsiasrua
Re: Sessions...........again (I guess)
"I don't learn by listening"
Hmm, I'd reassess that if I were you.
# Posted on October 25th 2007 by ...
Re: Sessions...........again (I guess)
At least some sessions are (more inviting). Ask about beginner sessions or "slow sessions": this kind exists, albeit not everywhere. I have kind of the same difficulties as you described, and when I chanced upon such a session, it was a gratifying experience.
(If any of you guys at The Bent Mast - or you at The Quiet Man - is reading this, thank you again!)
Amir
# Posted on October 25th 2007 by sixholes
Re: Sessions...........again (I guess)
Don't give up the mandolin - it too often gets sidelined as a 'beginner's instrument' or a 'second instrument' for fiddlers and banjo players. It'\s inaudibility in a session, whilst it may put you at a disadvantage, it also has its benefits, in that it allows you to feel your way around unfamiliar tunes without putting off your fellow musicians. Hearing yourself in a session is something that you learn to do as your ear becomes more finely tuned - a good mandolin would help, though.
As regards 'ettiquette', don't go charging in like a rhino on heat. Be respectful of the other musicians, no matter how good or bad they sound to you. You'll undoubtedly make a few small gaffes - you're human. But so are the other musicians - human enough, one would hope, to either politely ignore your faux-pas or offer you friendly advice. I would add that I think this applies just as much to all other areas of life as it does to sessions, when moving to a new country. The social conventions, ways of communicating, humour, taboos etc. will all be subtly different.
# Posted on October 25th 2007 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: Sessions...........again (I guess)
If I believed everything that was said here about sessions I would be afraid to go too.
In reality they are much more welcoming than they are made out to be here.
I stress that I can only speak about the sessions I’ve been to, but its not some ancient fraternity where inauguration occurs only when a 'potential' has learned and mastered 17 instruments and can play 6000000 tunes while reading ‘An Táin’ and dancing a slip jig in the forest without breaking a twig on the ground….
No... sessioneers around here are people who like to play trad… but the main part is that they are people..
There are pricks and bollixes as well as some of the soundest people you will ever meet.
Like anything else in life. Sus them out for yourself. I am sure you will be pleasantly surprised.
Good Luck
# Posted on October 25th 2007 by session savage
Re: Sessions...........again (I guess)
"I don't learn by listening"
Therefore I don't listen whilst I am learning.
There lies the problem!!
# Posted on October 25th 2007 by geoffwright
Re: Slow sessions
Slow sessions may be useful if there are a large number of beginners that want the chance to play their repertoire without holding back the more experienced musicians. But personally, I think there is more to be gained by sitting in on a 'grown-up' session, showing due deference to the better musicians, joining in when you can and sitting back and listening the rest of the time.
"I don't learn by listening"
Zouk - You probably do, even if you don't realise it - and if you don't you should. There is much to be gained by getting the tunes into your head before you even try playing them. If you've not been to many sessions yet, when you hear the tunes you already know, you'll probably be amazed at how different they sound when played by somebody else. Style is something you can only learn by listening.
# Posted on October 25th 2007 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: Sessions...........again (I guess)
Thank god people don't learn by listening. I'd be out of a job if they could just learn English by watching (and listening to) TV.
# Posted on October 25th 2007 by Kheelch
Re: Sessions...........again (I guess)
Beginners and all welcome at our session at IAANJ in NJ. While it is appreciated if you don't noodle and hunt and peck on tunes you don't know, when it's your turn to start something, you can do it at your own pace, and we'll keep to your speed and not care if you make a mistake. Best to record the sessions and go home to practice to them. No one was born playing fast, it's gradual, everyone started in the same place.
# Posted on October 25th 2007 by irisnevins
Re: Sessions...........again (I guess)
Look, zouk, to play in a session, you need to either know the tunes, or back on your zouk. To back you either need to know the tunes or know enough of the tunes to 'ham it'.
My honest suggestion, would be to try and meet up with another trad musician who will be patient and help you learn the tunes/backing to those tunes. Tasteful backers are valuable people, whatever you might read here.
I would hazard a guess that most sessions in a public place will be of a reasonably high standard. To play in these sesh's you also need to be a reasonably high standard
Now whether you will be welcome depends on many factors. your musical ability just one of these.
Spend a few weeks just checking out the sessions and folk who play in them.
But really, what is it you want? To play trad, or to play with other people?
For me the primary factor is playing trad. whether i play with others or not is a side issue.
I would suggest learning say a dozen tunes and playing these till you are pretty good at them.Rather than having 50 tunes, none of which you play well.
I always suggest slow airs. A slow air played well is a beautiful thing. That is what i, as a musician want to hear, and to play. Something of beauty. Now achieving that can take many years.
I would never in a million years try and put someone off, i encourage you to practice at home.
# Posted on October 25th 2007 by piobagusfidil
Re: Sessions...........again (I guess)
I think it fair to say i have never learnt a tune on an instrument that i didn't already know from listening.
# Posted on October 25th 2007 by piobagusfidil
Re: Sessions...........again (I guess)
"try and meet up with another trad musician who will be patient and help you learn the tunes/backing to those tunes."
In a city like Cork, where traditional music is so ubiquitous, you are bound to make *friends* (as opposed to solely musical acquaintances) who happen to be trad musicians, who will enjoy your company on a personal as well as musical level, will be happy to help you learn and will 'tell it like it is'.
# Posted on October 25th 2007 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: Sessions...........again (I guess)
Go to the session and try to pick up the tunes . Play along.
Your'e playing a melody instrument anyway, enjoy yourself.
You sound like your'e not the type to go running roughshod over proceedings if you don't now the tunes. Everyone else learns them by playing along mostly, why shouldn't you?
A very wise young friend of mine who frequents this site told me that he found that the wrong messages can be conveyed by the mere nature of written text . Often what we read in these posts is not intended to be as condescending as it may sound, but people still get outraged and discouraged, which I do on a regular basis. The sessions where you would feel unwelcome are probably not worth going to anyway.
(This advise, however, does not apply to backers).
# Posted on October 25th 2007 by chuneboi slim
Re: Sessions...........again (I guess)
As to your inaudible mandolin - I keep mentioning the Red Henry-pattern mandolin bridges ( also may be fitted to mandolas and 'zouks ). These improve both volume and tone of the instrument. I ended up making my own, and modifying the design for the wider soundboard of my 'zouk, and much enjoy the improvement ( unlike my daughter, who can't bear to be in the same room when I'm practising 'cause she says it's too loud ).
Try googling for him, he's also on the Comando site, which is for mandolin-players.
A mandolin need not be quiet. You could even try a resonator mandolin, they ARE noisy !
# Posted on October 25th 2007 by Guernsey Pete
Re: Sessions...........again (I guess)
You can't expect to understand all the nuances that should exist in Irish music without listening listening and listening.I've been living with the same tunes for years and keep finding something fresh in them.
Aquiring traditional music skills and knowledge and interperatation can not by its nature be an instantaenous process.Just take time to learn a few tunes in your head .transfer them to the mandolin aand then chance joining in.
If you try tunes you dont know you will only frustrate musicians that have put work in practising their music which you should be able to enjoy listening to.
+
# Posted on October 25th 2007 by infiddle
Re: Sessions...........again (I guess)
zoukgirl, if you want permission to just sit in sessions and noodle around, you have already gotten it here.
However, to be more comfortable and respectful of a session you could end up at, you need to record their tunes and learn their tunes.
Dissonant backing, random noodling and a sense of entitlement that you are conveying will aggravate other people in the session.
Not sure what part of the world you are from, but just "playing in the session" rather than learning Irish traditional music is not always an end in itself, but one way to share tunes with your musical friends. You are right to pick up that you might not be "welcomed", that very well could be true, so take it to heart!
# Posted on October 25th 2007 by Aine Ni Scully
Re: Sessions...........again (I guess)
thanks pete, just ordered a redhenry bridge,in hope!
# Posted on October 25th 2007 by piobagusfidil
Re: Sessions...........again (I guess)
Don't believe everything you read here. In the real world, people are much more welcoming than in cyberspace. And I bet some of the same people who are curmudgeons here are some of the nicest people out in the real world. When approaching a new session, always go and listen first, then talk to the participants, and then bring your instrument and ask permission before starting to play--a little communications goes a long way in smoothing the entry into a new session.
And enjoy all the new things your travel will bring to your life!
# Posted on October 25th 2007 by AlBrown
Re: Sessions...........again (I guess)
Al, I disagree...
Honestly, why is "welcoming" the most important characteristic of a session?
Everyone has a different measure of comfort in any social situation. Some extroverts need continual chat, some introverts want to be left alone.
We do a disservice by sending someone out to ask permission to play when they don't know any tunes, as she admittedly doesn't? Why is that element of participation quite so important, why not woodshed at home a bit?
Curmudgeons? No, just realists, trying to help someone not wade in and alienate sessioneers that may have known each other and been playing together for years!
She is looking for us to all tell her she should just go ahead and play, why go to IRELAND if you are not willing to learn how and why they play the music?
# Posted on October 25th 2007 by Aine Ni Scully
Re: Sessions...........again (I guess)
Whoa, I'm not Al but I'm fairly sure he didn't say failte is the most important characteristic of a session.
...and he also said that she should go and listen first, introduce herself, feel it out, etc.
I'd also wager she's thoroughly chastised at this point (or one would hope) and will take to soaking up the tunes at whatever session she finds herself.
Unless that's not her goal, to play tunes or learn them to back them properly, in which case, the 'telling her to forget it' crowd is spot-on...a bit harsh, but hey, that's the mustard board for ya.
Now go get ‘em, zoukgirl, soak away! Maketh thy ears and brain like the sponge!
# Posted on October 25th 2007 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Sessions...........again (I guess)
Any how Al, i dont know about you but a lot of the sessions ive attended are not automatically welcoming of all and sundry with an instrument in hand!In fact anything but... First you have to prove yourself.
Once the initial hurdles are overcome, then you will be welcome.
And if you fall at the first, well then go home and practice some more!
Its not a free for all jam session. Be warned.
# Posted on October 25th 2007 by piobagusfidil
Re: Sessions...........again (I guess)
Guys, please, slow down and look again at what I said (and thanks SWFL--you saw what I was trying to get at). zoukgirl obviously needed to be warned about noodling and other unsavory habits. But she had also gotten the impression from this board that she shouldn't go to a session at all. That is NOT what we should be about--folk music belongs to folks, and we should not be turning them away, instead we should be pointing them in the right direction.
Now, I did not say every session should welcome every individual of every skill level without reservation--note that I told her not to jump in right away, but visit and talk first. If a newbie comes to a session to listen, talks to the folks involved, she learns about them, and they learn about her, things can move in the right direction. They can give her advice on what tunes they play the most so she can learn them, she can tell them what she knows, and maybe they can slow down to let her play along with a tune or two once in a while until she gets her feet under her.
There is a difference between welcoming and having standards--they are not mutually exclusive. If you are polite and considerate of others, you can be welcoming and maintain standards at the same time.
# Posted on October 25th 2007 by AlBrown
Re: Sessions...........again (I guess)
I think NCRC nailed it, but I will reword it a bit. Most sessions are generally open and welcoming to people that are courteous in return. Beginners are often welcomed as long as they know their limitations, and act in a way that is non-intrusive. If you're an interesting person, who is fun to spend time with, then you should fit right in! And that makes those people more apt to *help* you develop into a person who is fun to play tunes with.
Most of the negativity on this forum is directed toward people who are at least somewhat clueless. If you're an experienced oldtime player, and come in and try playing Irish tunes in an oldtime style, and don't have enough awareness of how inappropriate it is, then you won't be as welcome, of course!
Ever session has its own quirks and individual characteristics. Go with an open mind, an open ear, and a friendly attitude, and you'll be fine! The only real way to become good at doing it is by doing it. You would only do yourself more harm by staying home to practice for years upon end, because you would develop your own habits and your own style, which probably wouldn't groove with what any given session would like. And you still wouldn't have any experience with the interactive "etiquette" elements of playing with other people.
So get out there and do it! Just be polite and open minded, and you'll soon be as hooked as the rest of us
Pete
# Posted on October 25th 2007 by Reverend
Re: Sessions...........again (I guess)
I think I understand what she means by she learns by playing not by listening. I feel the same way. I wanted to attend a session at the beginning of my learning experience because I didn't want to get bad habits from always playing all alone. It pushes me to play the way the others are playing. If all I do is listen to them, I don't get half as much knowledge about how to play as when I also try to play along.
I have found that thesession.org is where grumpy people go to complain and real sessions are not so bad as it seems from reading these grumpy people. If it were me, I'd attend a session with an instrument ready but be prepared not to bring it out if it didn't seem I would be welcome.
My first session I didn't bring an instrument (because I did not have one) but I asked if I could bring one in the future and they asked me a few questions to try to figure out where my head was at, and then said I was welcome to play. I think they thought I might have an instrument out in my car, but I really didn't have one yet so I just listened.
# Posted on October 25th 2007 by sbhikes
Re: Sessions...........again (I guess)
I'd just like to point out that the grumps here are actually outnumbered by people like Pete (Reverend), Al, sbhikes, SWL fiddler, Guernsey Pete, Iris, NCRC, proinsiasura, wounded hussar, and on and on, who unfailingly offer constructive, friendly suggestions and encouragement.
Yes, there are grumpy people in Irish music, just as there are in any community of people. But just like here, they're usually outnumbered by friendly folks. Remember that when you walk into your first session.
# Posted on October 25th 2007 by Will Harmon
Re: Sessions...........again (I guess)
Shikes,and reverand, Why do you want to play the way others are playing? |Ok i know that to be sociable and join in this helps. But what i would say is that developing a distinctive personal style is ,at least for me, an important art of my music. If we all sound alike....
Each area will have its own settings and tunes. I do not relish the day when every session plays the same tunes, the same settings etc.
I know there is a school of thought her at the session that playing along in the 'background' is acceptable, But for me, this kind of thing just bugs me. I know im not PC in this and may well get e-slapped, but thats my feeling on the matter and i have a right to express it. I am not suggesting that we should all practice at home for decades before joining in, but that a certain level has to be achieved before joining in an 'open' sesh. Not in quantity of tunes but in quality. a few tunes nicely played is enough.
If you here a tune you like, ask the name, hopefully someone will know it, and learn the bones at home. or record the sesh and do it that way.
Half of the enjoyment is in listening to the wonderful music, does it really matter whether you are playing or not?
I know we all like to be part of the craic, but as far as i am concerned the folk listening are as much a part of that as the folk playing.
This is the peoples music, for and by the people. Any artificial dividing line drawn between players and listeners is just that: artificial.
# Posted on October 25th 2007 by piobagusfidil
Re: Sessions...........again (I guess)
There's a difference between developing your own style in a session setting and developing one completely on your own without playing with other people.
I am not trying to advocate becoming a cookie cutter musician, that sounds just like every other musician. I was just saying that if you spend all your time playing on your own, you're not learning how to play with other people. And subsequently, your personal style may not work well in a session setting...
Pete
# Posted on October 25th 2007 by Reverend
Re: Sessions...........again (I guess)
Fair enough. But at some point when you lead your own sessions it does.
# Posted on October 25th 2007 by piobagusfidil
Re: Sessions...........again (I guess)
I think we're miles and miles away from zoukgirl developing her own style. Give the poor lassie some time! She's got plenty to fret about, pun fully intended.
# Posted on October 25th 2007 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Sessions...........again (I guess)
Zoukgirl: Do not be daunted, there is a session out there just waiting for you to join in and eventually fit in! To reiterate what some have already suggested above, I will share this:
When I hear of a session and think I might like to "visit", I go there on session night to have a pint and listen. Not to play, because it might not be open to all right from the start, or it might not even be what I expected at all when I arrive. Here is what I have in mind:
1. I go to observe (What do they do and how do they do it?),
2. I go listen to their repertoire (do I know even one bloody tune they play?)
3. I go to meet some of them, and, if invited, join in.
4. Fact is, I actually do enjoy listening to this music almost as much as playing it, so I win either way. (ILessee -- Irish music, pints, relaxating in a public house -- well, sure hurts to be me tonight, eh?)
While you are at it, check out a certain Zen koan about keeping your cup empty, so that you are ready when someone wants to fill it.
Best of luck, have fun out there.
# Posted on October 25th 2007 by Piece
Re: Sessions...........again (I guess)
Wear a T-shirt saying "I love Sean Og" and you will be ok. Do not wear a Kerry or Kilkenny sports top.
These things matter in Cork, life and death. Music is for fun and enjoyment, so just go along and join in. I will not insult you and treat you like a moron with no social skills by offering advice. I assume you are house trained.
Enjoy Cork, a great City.
# Posted on October 25th 2007 by bodhran bliss
Re: Sessions...........again (I guess)
Cork city or out in West Cork? If your going to be in West Cork I can give you a few pointers, especially about open sessions.
# Posted on October 26th 2007 by Alex Wilding
Re: Sessions...........again (I guess)
I must say that I'm deeply impressed by the number of replies that were added during the time I was at work!!
I'm definitely no session destroyer, I'm a humble, nice and courteous lady and I'm there to learn and enjoy the music, I don't need others to hear me before I can play well.
Thank you all for good advice and encouragement. There are so many things I wanted to comment, so I'll see if I do remember it all.
Firstly, when I say that I don't learn by listening, I don't mean that I don't listen. I listen to LOADS of Irish trad music and I've been to lots of sessions (mostly in Ireland, some in Sweden where I live now) so I've heard a lot of tunes and I've played through lots of tunes too but there are only a few that I can play ok. I learn a lot by listening at home, but I think it's hard to learn from a session, more than learning what they do and what tunes they play. I'll try the advice to bring a recording device, that must be a good way to remember what tunes they play.
My intention is to learn to play good Irish traditional music AND to play with others. Everybody says that the best way to learn to play is to play with others, so that's why I want to do it. Here in Sweden I play with an oldtime band (but we also do some Irish music) and I attend a bluegrass jam sometimes which is very nice. I've improved a lot since I found people to play with, even if at the beginning it was only my boyfriend.
I think the most realistic goal is to learn to back well on the bouzouki because I can't play anything yet up to speed anyway, and the sound of the bouzouki just takes my breath away and makes my feet start moving. Besides, there are way too few female zouk players....
I want to find a bouzouki teacher as soon as I arrive to Ireland (and would like to find someone who can teach whistle too, if I have time for both) to give me pointers and help. Until then I'm using Zan McLeod's DVD.
Actually if the sessions I visit have bouzouki players, I think could probably learn a lot from them just by listening. There are so many things in bouzouki playing that I just haven't thought of.
I didn't need to have your permission to go and noodle on a session, but I wanted your opinion on what is ok to do "out there". I'm glad to hear so many of you say that the reality is so much better than cyberspace...
About the mandolin, that Red Henry bridge sounds interesting, but does he make them for both flat tops and F-style type mandolins? (stupid question, when I come to think of it, since he's a bluegrass player himself)
I have plans to buy a better mandolin as soon as I have the finances for one, I'm in contact with an excellent mandolin builder in Denmark that I will order from, his mandolins are simply wonderful.
By the way who is Sean Og? (my guess a football player???)
Does anyone know where they have open sessions in Cork? Most sessions I visited seemed quite closed. But really, I only remember An Spailpín Fánac and An Síol Broin (sorry I'm not sure about the spelling).
Well, I've probably written too much already but it seemed I was a bit unclear in my first post. Again, thank you everyone for kind advice!!
# Posted on October 26th 2007 by zoukgirl
Re: Sessions...........again (I guess)
Lingpupa, we'll live in Cork City if we go to live in Cork, but we'll probably get a car. My husband used to live in Clonakilty and knows about a really nice open session there but we're open to all suggestions!
# Posted on October 26th 2007 by zoukgirl
Re: Sessions...........again (I guess)
Zan McLeod's DVD is great and if you master that your flying it.Cork is grand just learn how to listen to people talking very fast. There s open sessions every night ,And some nice bouzouki players Check out the ceile allstars they have a great bouzouki player Eoin.Check out the clip of them playing here
http://www.myspace.com/ceiliallstars
They have a session every Wed. in The Slainte bar I love it and if they can put up with me calling in they'll put up with anyone
# Posted on October 26th 2007 by Saint
Re: Sessions...........again (I guess)
Do not, under any circumstances, ask in Cork City "Who is Sean Og?".
# Posted on October 26th 2007 by bodhran bliss
Re: Sessions...........again (I guess)
bliss or Ogie as we like to call him
# Posted on October 26th 2007 by Saint
Re: Sessions...........again (I guess)
# Posted on October 26th 2007 by zoukgirl
Re: Sessions...........again (I guess)
Sean Og, footballer AND hurler, worshiped by all in Cork. Fermanagh father, Fijian mother, handsome looking devil, with two equally talented and handsome brothers, one now playing Aussie rules in Australia.
# Posted on October 26th 2007 by bodhran bliss