Can anyone help point me in the right direction to find information on suitable ornamentation for the Boehm flute? I can do the various rolls,casadh,cuts,slurs etc on the Low D and whistle but I'm really unsure on what is appropriate for the Boehm.
Atanos - just checked out your profile. You'd previously played pipes - I'm surprised you didn't head straight for a wooden flute (or rather, simple system+keys) rather than Boehm. It seems a more natural way to go.
I play Boehm system silver flute, but also wooden simple system.
I don't know what casadh or cuts are - sound like piping terms - if you have the time, please enlighten us.
Boehm system playing, alledgedly, is not accepted as the norm for Our Music, because, as Dogma would dictate and have you believe, you can't do the various rolls, slurs, etc (lies, of course). As a consequence there IS NO authority on Boehm system playing of Irish music.
I suggest you listen to Paddy Carty or Cherish the Ladies (Joannie Madden). Paddy Carty played a Rudall Carte Radcliffe model, which is a Boehm system wooden flute. You will observe that he doesn't do the same speed as Molloy, Tansey, Crawford, Liam Kelly or Frankie Kennedy. That can be explained partly by the steady East Galway style.
Madden demonstrates that it's perfectly possible to be become a Boehm virtuoso performer of The Music. The only thing missing, as intimated on a recent thread, is the wooden vis-a-vis metalic sound. So if you can afford £1500-2000 get a RC Radcliffe. Other than that, work away at your Boehm.
Domhniall Mac Aoidh--Thanks for that and particularly for the listening suggestions.
I actually do have a wooden flute. Whilst struggling for a good tone and volume with it I was introduced to the Boehm. This gave me a wider range of music to play. I dont know if the problem I experienced is typical of the model because I dont have enough experience with wooden flutes. It made it easier to stick with the Boehm because I was playing reels,ect on my low D. Perhaps I should have persevered longer. Later I may try again and If I get no joy I'll try another wooden model
You say the Boehm isn't an accepted norm because dogma says ornamentation can't be played. I accept that a slur as played on a whistle cant be done but don't box players play a slur from a high note to a lower note by a rapid on-and-off the note lower still ?
I'd bet big bucks on the chances that you already play cuts and casadh already but call them by other names. A cut being a quick grace note above but sometimes below the melody note (when both are used, with the melody note in between as grace notes, it becomes a roll ). A casadh is simply a two grace note ornamentation. the first being the melody note and the second a cut. In piping the cuts are called grace notes and the nearest equivalent to a casadh would be the doubling, or more acurately, a half-doubling.
If cuts and casadh is possible on the Boehm why not the roll and other ornamentation?
I was hoping that the Dogma Police were wrong and that others have travelled that path and found something in the way of ornamentation and were out there doing it. I'll Keep on trying.
Atanos
Casadh I think merans a 'turn'. The term is used in 'The Turning of the Geese' (beautiful tune). I crops up a lot as meaning 'turn' or twist in Irish tunes.
I play ITM on silver concert flute and respect it's limitations, and hopefully it's advantages. I don't pretend to be able to do some of the things a wooden unkeyed flute can do. I play how I hear it as close as I can, love it and don't think we concert flutists should feel inferior!
I agree with both of you - and I don't feel inferior. I've heard the metal machine being called the "typewriter", but by a fiddler who rarely had a good word for anyone. I can do most tunes on both, but prefer the silver for things like Julia Delaney's or O'Dowd's #2.
I think I probably already do cuts and casadhs, as you say.
I said recently on a related thread that you can control the dynamics better on the silver machine. Any agreement/disagreement on that one?
No one's yet mentioned the possibilites offered by "French" keys on the Boehm--open holes in some keys. A fine contra dance flautist I took lessons from (Susan Brandt, Potomac, Md) routinely slid up or down notes using the opening in the keys.
I play a couple of old wood Boehms with closed keys but it's possible to bend notes with a slow opening of the key or a dip of the head to flatten and raise the tone. It also easier to get a warm "woody" tone, but Joanie Madden, previously mentioned in this thread, gets a mighty warm tone from her silver instrument.
The open-hole snobs rant about the mechanics slowing you down on ornaments, but I think the end effect sometimes depends more on an individual's reaction time. Some people move their fingers faster than others, just as some people run faster than others.
The wood Boehms aren't impossible to find, but these days you'll be set back over $1000, I'm afraid. (I got my first one over 20 years ago for under $300.) I'm not sure what Chris Abell's prices are, but the Wm Haynes Co. has started making them again--starting at $10,000.
So, use the instrument you enjoy playing and point out that there's lots of players in the session who are on axes of non-Irish origin.
Goodness knows what I do on my silver concert flute. The ornamentation develops as I grow to know the tune. The fingers follow. It's good to read about how others do things. But it can give you hang ups. Like, I don't put a 'roll' in there say where Matt Malloy does. So?? We are all limited by our skill level, the instrument etc. But what we do is still great because each of us is different and each of us brings to the music differently. We can all be teachers, influencers and so on.
Danny-- You say you play the silver in certain tunes. Mix and match. That might be the way to go. I don't have a problem when playing strathspeys because (to my ear anyway) a smattering of casadhs and cuts is all that's required. luckly there are many reels that don't require much in the way of rolls and where a tune insists on it I'll just use the low D. As for your question on the silver's dynamics, well, I dont have a lot of experience to offer but I suspect there are others reading this who will, so I'll just respect your judgment on that one.
Marguerite's comments on slurring makes for interesting reading. The technique of a slow lift of the key may be to delicate an operation for a ham fisted clod hopper like me but the head tilt to flatten and sharpen a note seems worth a go. Thanks for that !.
Your translation on the word Casadh seems to be spot on Susie-Lee. In Geraldine Cottar's excellent Tin Whistle Tutor there is a lovely Air called Casadh an tSugain, translated as "Twisting the Hayrope". Also, your remarks above on our limitations and differences was insightful and well worth remembering.
I like Marguerite's suggestion wrt the so-called French keys. I once had a go on one of those, but just could not operate the machine at all!
But I bet in the right hands, it would be equal to a simple system yoke - and if one with french keys were made in wood, well......
Ornamentation on the Boehm flute is much like on the wooden flute, but it sounds different. The rolls (to my ears) sound more like what they do on the fiddle than what you get with a wooden flute. Many times you have to use different fingers for your cuts and taps, so experiment. Listen to Joannie Madden, she's amazing.
A Radcliffe is not a Boehm flute. It has keys, but the fingering is more similar to the simple-system flute (first finger of right hand gives F# and not F -- F is fingered like in Baroque: xxx-xox
People started playing Irish music on wooden flutes because they were cheap at the time. These days, wooden flutes are more expensive than entry level metal flutes, and you see some people playing Irish music on metal flutes because they can't afford the wooden ones. As long as you don't expect to "place" in the fleadh, you'll be ok.
Make sure you send your flute for overhauling at least every other year. Keep those pads well maintained and the keys in good order. The ornamentation will require a well-functioning mechanism.
I play a silver Boehm flute, but not for Irish. However I did try to before I got my wooden simple system w/keys. The two rolls that I learned that are not as obvious as others may be, are:
A roll xxo-ooo xoo-ooo xxo-ooo xxo-o,oo xxo-ooo
That little comma is what I'm using to signify the trill key by your index finger of the right hand.
B roll xoo-ooo ooo-ooo xoo-ooo xoo-o,oo xoo-ooo
(Same trill key) I seem to remember this one not sounding great due to going to open fingering for the note (C) above B, but it may work in a jam.
I didn't work on rolls on the Boehm much as it became more and more obvious to me that I wanted an Irish flute for The Music. I find the Boehm way too clumsy for me. Hope that helps some.
Oh, also: the afforementioned Chris Abell wooden Boehm flute (which I think is *the* most beautiful thing I've *ever* seen) according to a pamphlet from about 5 years ago starts at $6500. Probably more now. BUT, if you are interested in getting a wooden Boehm for the tone for less $, do what I did. I bought an old German wooden Boehm flute that was unplayable (cracks, bad pads, general condition of neglect) for $200. I paid $300 to have it overhauled and it really was gorgeous, in looks and tone, after that. It wasn't quite A440, but it was close enough. I ended up selling it for $1100. So it was a good investment anyway. Well, I've blabbed on. Sorry - good luck with your info search.
Glauber - I have to disagree with you, buddy - I have played a Rudall Carte Radcliffe, and it's a wooden flute with straightforward modern Boehm system fingering. I think you may be thinking of a Rudall Carte 1867 patent Boehm system, which is like the simple system, but with keys, and was a forerunner of the modern Boehm system. I have one of those, but have never got round to spending too much time learning to play it at speed, the mechanism seems so unwieldy.
But you're right wrt to why people nowadays use Boehm flutes because wooden ones are prohibitively expensive. That said, I've at least 3 wooden flutes, but prefer the Boehm system!
This is all good stuff and leaves me plenty to think about, so thanks heaps for it. As for the prices of new quality wooden flutes, it did influence me at the time. I had a second hand wooden flute and to replace it for a new one would have been a lot more than I paid for a new factory produced Pearl. Anyway and in the meantime I'll start buying Lotto tickets and hope for the best
Atanos
Radcliffe: i have to defer to you, Dom, because i haven't played one, but i've seen one recently and the guy who had it also didn't think it was the same as the Boehm system. The liner notes for Paddy Carty's CD say something to the effect that he used that system because he considered it closer to the symple system fingerings than Boehm's. AFAIK, the fingering of the F and F# is one of the main things that keep people from jumping to Boehm right away, and there were multiple systems trying to get the extra venting and precision of the Boehm while retaining some of the old fingering.
Anyway, it also occurred to me to say that Irish music is only a little about ornamentation. Ornamentation is less important than phrasing, for example. You can develop a style that has sparse ornamentation and still works well as Irish music.
Another thing that occurred to me to say is that you can get a wooden head for your metal Boehm (that's what i have: http://www.woodenflutemaker.com) for a fraction of the cost of a wooden Boehm, and it will sound nice. It still won't sound the same as a "trad" flute (even a fully wooden Boehm won't) because of the body shape; the Boehm will always be more free blowing.
Now YOU've got ME thinking, Glauber! I'm pretty certain it was a Radcliffe someone lent me at a house session a couple of months ago. Sweet it was, also, and loud. The noise that came out was like a cloud of purple velvet!
I've got that Paddy Carty album - I'll check out the sleeve notes again.
But the one I've got is an 1867 patent. Maybe I should persevere with it.....
And you're right about the ornamentation thing - also it depends what style (county/whatever) you play. Micho Russell's style is very sparsely ornamented, and quite staccato (not my fave, I have to admit) compared to eg Tansey's (my fave!)
I think it's too easy to get hung up with ideas about 'correct' ornamentation. As far as boehm system flutes go, there's actually very little that you can't do in the way of ornamentation, although those only used to keyless flutes will fing the keys cumbersome and awkward. I learned to play on one and found it easier in some cases to lift the 'fiddle ornaments' from O'Nieill's, say, than do 'proper' rolls, and this used to sort of worry me. However, as the years roll by (no pun intended), and the more music I hear, the more I look at the prescribed way of playing as being a good starting point for an individual's style and nothing more. Like it or not, we've left the era of regionality and entered the era of individual style, and there is no going back. Try listening to Matt Molloy, and then one of those old recordings by John McKenna. Idon't think that their ornamentation is constructed in the same way at all, yet both are the 'authentic' sound of the tradition....
I've played both extensively, and used to play my French-model (open hole) "machine" exclusively until I decided to commit to a wooden five-key Pratten/R&R hybrid. Fingerings are slightly different here and there so things get a bit trappy if I don't pay attention, but I play them both the same stylistically. The sound is different between the two, but you can bear down and get a fantastic bark on a silver flute, too (just think about jazz players), and there's a lot to be said for the brilliance/ resonance -- as well as the flexibility in the higher register. The trill keys are also handy for quickie creative cuts/taps. And the low C/B extended foot is nice too on some of those slow airs, etc.
Interestingly, I attended a flute workshop with a fellow named John Skelton last weekend, and he mentioned that in the 1920s & '30s metal flutes were all the rage in at least American versions of ITM -- because they were mass-produced they were easier to get , and often, they were cheaper as well.
So basically, I say do whatever works. If you listen closely and have spent a lot of time with the metal version, it's easy to hear that Joanie Madden plays silver. I think some people don't like the fact that it sounds a little more polished, and almost too "perfect" tone & tuningwise (me among them). But stylistically I think she plays with very little difference.
Nowadays my silver flute spends most of its time sitting quietly in the closet, but I recently played a classical wedding that turned into a session during the prelude (seriously late bride), and it served me very well. (Transposition & certain rolls were a little exciting, but hey. We're talking music made by people who played whatever they could get their hands on, so is this any different?)
So I hope I haven't stepped in anything huge here, but I felt compelled to speak up on my dear old 80-B's behalf. Ultimately, I got great results out of it, and I have to admit, it sure was easier on the embouchure!
Atanos, You said in your previous post, that it was hard to get a good tone and volume out of your wooden flute. I dabbled a little with a silver flute (no formal or classical training) and now I play Irish music strictly on a wooden flute. It wasn't too hard for me to figure out how to play my old silver job. But the wooden flute took me much longer to get used to and develop a decent tone and volume. (of course I'm still working on getting better tone and volume but it gets better and better the more I play, practice and build up the stamina needed for a wooden flute)
The wooden flute was definitely harder for me in the beginning. Keep working at the wooden flute. It will come in time, just be patient. When it does happen, you will absolutely adore the wooden flute and never look back......I do have to admit that i have tried to play some tunes on my old silver flute (just for kicks), but the tunes felt so out of place and awkward, that this would only last a few minutes....but that's just me....
I'm not bashing the silver flute or anything, but I really love Irish wooden flute and hope you give it a chance.
Here's what the liner notes for Paddy Carty's CD say:
"Paddy's first flute was the old 8-key model with open holes and conical bore, but after deciding that he wanted more power from the flute he switched to a metal Boehm-system flute which supplied it to a great extent. It had, however, certain fingering drawbacks and when Paddy made a trip to London he picked up a 'Radcliff Model' flute made by the Rudall Carte Company. This flute had the cylindrical bore of the Bowhm and its power but retained the basic fingering of the simple system, the fingering with which he was so familiar. Paddy considered this to be the ideal flute." (Daniel Michael Bollins - liner notes to "Traditional Irish Music").
The flute pictured on the album cover looks very Boehm-ian, but it clearly has a long F key for the L.H. pinky, next to the G# key.
The Radcliff was one of the many, many transition models which were made in England, France and Germany before Boehm's model became widely accepted. In Germany there was even a "Reform Flute" movement away from Boehm into something similar to these transition flutes, after the Boehm flute was already established. I saw a few of these weird flutes from Rick Wilson's collection (he's a flute collector from California, with about 3,000 flutes in playable condition). Some of them are really beautiful, using delicate ring-style keys to give you the keywork and also the open holes. Most of these are much more complicated than the Boehm, with all sorts of extra levers and oposing springs and whatever else they could throw in. One of the points of honour seems to be to keep the traditional fingering for the F# and F-natural (forked F) notes.
I wish there were a better Paddy Carty recording; i don't like the sound of that album.
Glauber - this thread is turning out be a fair bit of fun! I too have my copy of the vinyl album - and my RC 1867 -on my lap as I type!
I think you win this one!
It does look very Boehm-esque from that picture - apart from, as you say, the long F key. On the 1867you have to keep the G# key down, but if you want G#, you release it - wierd. I think that's what has put me off it.
The author of the notes you quoted, is Daniel Michael Collins, and the model is, as you say, spelt Radcliff.
So the wooden Rudall Carte I played must have been a Boehm.
Fair enough.
I like Cat's description of the "bark" you get from a Boehm - concurs with what I said earlier wrt dynamics.
Glauber - there is another Paddy Carty album, made with the Fiddle player Connor Tully, with Frank Hogan on Mandola, called, predictably, "Traditional Music of Ireland". It's a cassette, catalogue no. 002, on the Trad HC Label, whose address, in 1990, was:
G.T.D. Heritage Recording Co. Ltd.,
Ballybane Industrial Estate,
Galway,
Ireland.
Paddy's playing comes out very clearly, and there are many nice tunes on it. If you can't get a hold of it from that address - I imagine they'd be gone from there now - email me and I'll do you a tape copy.
Those musicians also feature on a part of the video made by Tony McMahon, "Come West Along the Road".
That first album, also called "Traditional Music of Ireland", with a very young Mick O'Connor, is of 1975 vintage, and the recording quality is not ideal. I used to know Mick, and he was telling me for his payment he received a number of copies of the album, to sell to his freinds! Now it's a "cult classic"!
I'll check the other album. Yes, the problem with the CD i have is the quality of the recording.
Just one more note about G#: Boehm's flute had an open G#, like you describe. Many people in Europe still prefer it this way, so some manufacturers offer it as an option. It makes the system simpler since you don' t need a double key for the G-nat, and apparently helps with the high E-nat too. Plus it keeps your fingers moving on the same direction (up) as you go up the scale, instead of going down for the G# and up for the other notes.
I can see your point wrt the open G# - but I couldn't get used to it. There are other differences with the 1867 ie the keys for Bnat and Fnat.
Having said that, since we've chatted here, I've had a mess around with it and it has a very tone...
Joyce-- Thanks for the encouragement to try again on the the wooden flute. I've got the wooden flute out again and I've started with tone exercises again. Again, many thanks.
I agrre with Joice. I played jazz for many years with the silver flute, and I begun to play ITM with it. Now I have a wooden flute and I'm happy with it. Sometime the sound it's not very good,
but no matter. I love the wooden flute and I think is not a good idea play ITM on a silver one when you have a wooden flute.
Altanos, not all the wooden flutes are the same. Some are more easy to play then others. My first was a Hamilton, and it was harder to play then the McGee that I have now. Did you play others wooden flute?
Atanos, I'm so happy to hear that you have started playing your wooden flute again. There will be days when your flute's tone and volume sound amazing and days where it seems to be fuzzy and hard to play. Sometimes the weather may play into this, but for the most part, it's wonderful instrument to play. Like I said, above, just be patient, it will get better and better for you.
I try and get flute lessons and attend workshops as often as I can. A good flute master might be able to give you some pointers to set you in the right direction. There are some great flute players who have definitely helped me with my embouchure.
I also agree with Gian Marco. Some flutes are definitely easier and louder to play than others. I used to own two very good wooden keyless flutes made by reputable makers. One was a quiet rudall & rose style flute that was difficult to play. I was told it would take a year to get used to and then it would sound great once I got dialed into it. My other one (which I currently play) is a pratten style that is very easy to play and fill and the tone and volume are very good. Both are good flutes, but the pratten style flute suited me better. (I sold the quiet flute to someone who fancied that style of flute)
Glauber and Danny - what do you think of Billy Clifford's wooden flute? Is it similar to Paddy Carty's? I was going to bring the cassette into work today so I could post some accurate information but left it on the kitchen table......
I like his style and sound of that flute. I recently learned the Fermoy Lasses and Honeymoon reel from Billy Clifford. (Those tracks are also on the Mt Rushie compilation CD, so I slowed that down to learn the tunes)
Gian Marco - if it's about whether the instrument is easy to play, then surely if you find the wooden easier to play, play it, but if you find Boehm easier, play that.
I personally find Boehm easier, but everyone is different.
If it's about the quality of the sound produced, that's a different thing.
Danny, for me it just took a bit longer to develop good tone and volume on the wooden flute. Once I got dialed into the wooden flute, I didn't really find it harder than the silver flute (but I'm not an accomplished silver flute player). Atanos, give it some time for you to adjust to a different kind of flute. Once you're dialed into the wooden flute, it won't seem harder than the silver flute - I'm speaking from my own learning experience.
The funny thing is that when I do pull out the silver flute or play someone else's silver flute, I find it hard to get the same good tone I used to get before playing wooden flute and Irish music. My body is so adjusted to the wooden flute, that I would probably have to spend time working on my embouchure if I went back to the silver flute. But I'm still just a newbie to flute playing in general. Danny, you sound like you've been playing flutes for a very long time and probably have no problem going from silver to wood or vice versa. But for newcomers like me, that might be more tricky.
Oh course, everyone who plays my current flute, is always impressed with how easy it is to play. So maybe if I was playing a different wooden flute which was hard to play, my above opinions might differ. So many variables to consider.....everyone and every situations is different.
Glauber I have all the information at home. The exact kind of flute never stuck in my head so I can't remember what it is at the moment. I was just curious of your opinions. It's a wooden flute but with boehm style keys.
Billy Clifford is the son of Julia Clifford, the great fiddler from Kerry. I think she's still alive and would be in the same genre as Lucy Farr who recently passed away. They all lived in London for a while but the Cliffords came back to Kerry...or was it a county close to Kerry....not sure...I have a music buddy who loves all the old music from the Sliabh Luchra area (forgive my terrible spelling).
I'm sorry if this has been mentioned already - I have skimmed through the thread and may have missed something. A Boehm flute player called Kathy Walton - described by Fintan Vallely as one of only two players who can play Irish music on silver flute - gives a workshop at the Return to Camden Town festival in London, specifically teaching Irish music to classical flute players. So if you can be in London in October, it's to be recommended.
David - the other one was Danny Mackay, I hope, or that's the last time you're invited down to Lewisham, boyo!
And Joyce will ye stop with the "playing flutes for a very long time" malarky - I'm not that old!
I am, of course, messing around with the pair of Ye's. But, Joyce, it is possible to have had many years experience in a subject, but to have profitted little from it - I hope I don't fall into that category either.
David, Kathy Walton's reputation goes before her - I may have played in a few sessions with her about half a dozen years ago at the Powerhouse - Karen Ryan, Mick Conneely, John Coakley, Johnny O'Leary and all that gang. Joannie Madden turned up one day - she is presumably The Other silver flute player of The Music.
Since my last post, I have been doing a bit of thoughtful practice on all four yokes. My observations are thus:
1867 - unplayable for The Music, unless I were to give it half a decade running in time - I can get a better sound out of the fiddle right now, and that's not a pretty sound to behold.
Silver Boehm - Loud, therefore good for the session I play in on Sundays and lead about one third of the sets (there are three lead instrumentalists and we do co-exist quite symbiotically). Also, I can play fast but not with great technical delicacy. And it's very comfortable, when you're playing set after set after set.
Blackwood - or wooden (or timber), but my 2 decent ones (1in C and 1 in D) are coccuswood. - It took me a couple of tunes to get me warmed up (and longer for the flutes), but, although lacking volume, ornamentation is conceivably easier, and good cadence more achievable. Varied dynamics are harder to obtain than metal yoke. I found the stretch painful after a few tunes, and I had to concentrate on maintaining tight focussed embouchure for volume - so I'm not used to it.
Conclusion - I'll stick with what I'm doing for the time being, ie, mix n' match, but resolve to get out more, to get to sessions where flutes can be heard more, so I can get some playing on the blackwood yokes.
At least yer comments have made me think about it, so thanks the lot of Ye's!
Hi Danny, sorry about that. I was just implying you seem very experienced and knowledgeable about flute playing, not old : )
Check this out - I took my music buddies (guys in their twenties) down to Boston to O'Leary's this past fall. During a break, my friend and flute teacher asked me if my "cubscouts" were enjoying their field trip. He also asked if I was being a good "den mother".....very funny, but hey, I'm not that much older then my lads.......(just turned 33)
Danny, I was only quoting Fintan Vallely. I believe there are three people who can play Irish music on silver flute - I say 'believe' because I've never actually heard Kathy Walton. But I know her husband well and he say's she's good, so it must be true.
I took the Boehm (actually Myiazawa) flute out of the case yesterday for the first time in a month, and ran it through its paces. Folks, after one month of playing exclusively "trad" flute, switching to Boehm is like switching from a bicicle into a rocket.Whoever thinks Herr Boehm didn't know what he's doing, doesn't know what he's talking about.The power and flexibility of the tone are remarkable.
Having said that, there's a place for wooden flute too. the ornamentation is much more varied, the sound is, well, prettier. And in fact, if you're going to stay within the keys used in Irish music, wooden flute is much easier to learn.
Glauber said, "And in fact, if you're going to stay within the keys used in Irish music, wooden flute is much easier to learn."
"Within the keys" is the key phrase--that's what I'm finding with whistle v. Boehm flute. I have a terrific time flipping through tunebooks looking for new repertoire material, tootling along on the whistle, until I flip to a page with F and Bb hornpipes. They're not problem a'tall on the Beohm.
For keys like F and Gm (1 and 2 flats), the keyed wooden flute works well. It takes a little practice, though, and will help you appreciate Herr Boehm's mechanism. But it's worth a try. In fact, all those keys were added (the flute had only 1 key for over 200 years) to allow playing in keys with lots of flats.
Tied the Crabs In The Skillet, Glaber, nice one! Still working on the wooden flute. It's a case of two steps forward ,one back. But tone and volume are getting better. Thanks again for the advice and encouragement. I'll keep at it until I'm "dialled In "
Ornamentation on the Boehm flute
Ornamentation on the Boehm flute
Can anyone help point me in the right direction to find information on suitable ornamentation for the Boehm flute? I can do the various rolls,casadh,cuts,slurs etc on the Low D and whistle but I'm really unsure on what is appropriate for the Boehm.
# Posted on April 5th 2003 by Atanos
Re: Ornamentation on the Boehm flute
Atanos - just checked out your profile. You'd previously played pipes - I'm surprised you didn't head straight for a wooden flute (or rather, simple system+keys) rather than Boehm. It seems a more natural way to go.
I play Boehm system silver flute, but also wooden simple system.
I don't know what casadh or cuts are - sound like piping terms - if you have the time, please enlighten us.
Boehm system playing, alledgedly, is not accepted as the norm for Our Music, because, as Dogma would dictate and have you believe, you can't do the various rolls, slurs, etc (lies, of course). As a consequence there IS NO authority on Boehm system playing of Irish music.
I suggest you listen to Paddy Carty or Cherish the Ladies (Joannie Madden). Paddy Carty played a Rudall Carte Radcliffe model, which is a Boehm system wooden flute. You will observe that he doesn't do the same speed as Molloy, Tansey, Crawford, Liam Kelly or Frankie Kennedy. That can be explained partly by the steady East Galway style.
Madden demonstrates that it's perfectly possible to be become a Boehm virtuoso performer of The Music. The only thing missing, as intimated on a recent thread, is the wooden vis-a-vis metalic sound. So if you can afford £1500-2000 get a RC Radcliffe. Other than that, work away at your Boehm.
# Posted on April 5th 2003 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: Ornamentation on the Boehm flute
Domhniall Mac Aoidh--Thanks for that and particularly for the listening suggestions.
I actually do have a wooden flute. Whilst struggling for a good tone and volume with it I was introduced to the Boehm. This gave me a wider range of music to play. I dont know if the problem I experienced is typical of the model because I dont have enough experience with wooden flutes. It made it easier to stick with the Boehm because I was playing reels,ect on my low D. Perhaps I should have persevered longer. Later I may try again and If I get no joy I'll try another wooden model
You say the Boehm isn't an accepted norm because dogma says ornamentation can't be played. I accept that a slur as played on a whistle cant be done but don't box players play a slur from a high note to a lower note by a rapid on-and-off the note lower still ?
I'd bet big bucks on the chances that you already play cuts and casadh already but call them by other names. A cut being a quick grace note above but sometimes below the melody note (when both are used, with the melody note in between as grace notes, it becomes a roll ). A casadh is simply a two grace note ornamentation. the first being the melody note and the second a cut. In piping the cuts are called grace notes and the nearest equivalent to a casadh would be the doubling, or more acurately, a half-doubling.
If cuts and casadh is possible on the Boehm why not the roll and other ornamentation?
I was hoping that the Dogma Police were wrong and that others have travelled that path and found something in the way of ornamentation and were out there doing it. I'll Keep on trying.
Atanos
# Posted on April 5th 2003 by Atanos
Re: Ornamentation on the Boehm flute
Casadh I think merans a 'turn'. The term is used in 'The Turning of the Geese' (beautiful tune). I crops up a lot as meaning 'turn' or twist in Irish tunes.
I play ITM on silver concert flute and respect it's limitations, and hopefully it's advantages. I don't pretend to be able to do some of the things a wooden unkeyed flute can do. I play how I hear it as close as I can, love it and don't think we concert flutists should feel inferior!
# Posted on April 6th 2003 by Susie-Lee
Re: Ornamentation on the Boehm flute
I agree with both of you - and I don't feel inferior. I've heard the metal machine being called the "typewriter", but by a fiddler who rarely had a good word for anyone. I can do most tunes on both, but prefer the silver for things like Julia Delaney's or O'Dowd's #2.
I think I probably already do cuts and casadhs, as you say.
I said recently on a related thread that you can control the dynamics better on the silver machine. Any agreement/disagreement on that one?
Danny
# Posted on April 6th 2003 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: Ornamentation on the Boehm flute
No one's yet mentioned the possibilites offered by "French" keys on the Boehm--open holes in some keys. A fine contra dance flautist I took lessons from (Susan Brandt, Potomac, Md) routinely slid up or down notes using the opening in the keys.
I play a couple of old wood Boehms with closed keys but it's possible to bend notes with a slow opening of the key or a dip of the head to flatten and raise the tone. It also easier to get a warm "woody" tone, but Joanie Madden, previously mentioned in this thread, gets a mighty warm tone from her silver instrument.
The open-hole snobs rant about the mechanics slowing you down on ornaments, but I think the end effect sometimes depends more on an individual's reaction time. Some people move their fingers faster than others, just as some people run faster than others.
The wood Boehms aren't impossible to find, but these days you'll be set back over $1000, I'm afraid. (I got my first one over 20 years ago for under $300.) I'm not sure what Chris Abell's prices are, but the Wm Haynes Co. has started making them again--starting at $10,000.
So, use the instrument you enjoy playing and point out that there's lots of players in the session who are on axes of non-Irish origin.
Marguerite
# Posted on April 6th 2003 by mvhplank
Re: Ornamentation on the Boehm flute
Goodness knows what I do on my silver concert flute. The ornamentation develops as I grow to know the tune. The fingers follow. It's good to read about how others do things. But it can give you hang ups. Like, I don't put a 'roll' in there say where Matt Malloy does. So?? We are all limited by our skill level, the instrument etc. But what we do is still great because each of us is different and each of us brings to the music differently. We can all be teachers, influencers and so on.
# Posted on April 6th 2003 by Susie-Lee
Re: Ornamentation on the Boehm flute
Danny-- You say you play the silver in certain tunes. Mix and match. That might be the way to go. I don't have a problem when playing strathspeys because (to my ear anyway) a smattering of casadhs and cuts is all that's required. luckly there are many reels that don't require much in the way of rolls and where a tune insists on it I'll just use the low D. As for your question on the silver's dynamics, well, I dont have a lot of experience to offer but I suspect there are others reading this who will, so I'll just respect your judgment on that one.
Marguerite's comments on slurring makes for interesting reading. The technique of a slow lift of the key may be to delicate an operation for a ham fisted clod hopper like me but the head tilt to flatten and sharpen a note seems worth a go. Thanks for that !.
Your translation on the word Casadh seems to be spot on Susie-Lee. In Geraldine Cottar's excellent Tin Whistle Tutor there is a lovely Air called Casadh an tSugain, translated as "Twisting the Hayrope". Also, your remarks above on our limitations and differences was insightful and well worth remembering.
# Posted on April 6th 2003 by Atanos
Re: Ornamentation on the Boehm flute
I like Marguerite's suggestion wrt the so-called French keys. I once had a go on one of those, but just could not operate the machine at all!
But I bet in the right hands, it would be equal to a simple system yoke - and if one with french keys were made in wood, well......
...Hmm. That's got me thinking.
Danny.
# Posted on April 6th 2003 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: Ornamentation on the Boehm flute
Ornamentation on the Boehm flute is much like on the wooden flute, but it sounds different. The rolls (to my ears) sound more like what they do on the fiddle than what you get with a wooden flute. Many times you have to use different fingers for your cuts and taps, so experiment. Listen to Joannie Madden, she's amazing.
A Radcliffe is not a Boehm flute. It has keys, but the fingering is more similar to the simple-system flute (first finger of right hand gives F# and not F -- F is fingered like in Baroque: xxx-xox
People started playing Irish music on wooden flutes because they were cheap at the time. These days, wooden flutes are more expensive than entry level metal flutes, and you see some people playing Irish music on metal flutes because they can't afford the wooden ones. As long as you don't expect to "place" in the fleadh, you'll be ok.
Make sure you send your flute for overhauling at least every other year. Keep those pads well maintained and the keys in good order. The ornamentation will require a well-functioning mechanism.
g
# Posted on April 6th 2003 by glauber
Re: Ornamentation on the Boehm flute
I play a silver Boehm flute, but not for Irish. However I did try to before I got my wooden simple system w/keys. The two rolls that I learned that are not as obvious as others may be, are:
A roll xxo-ooo xoo-ooo xxo-ooo xxo-o,oo xxo-ooo
That little comma is what I'm using to signify the trill key by your index finger of the right hand.
B roll xoo-ooo ooo-ooo xoo-ooo xoo-o,oo xoo-ooo
(Same trill key) I seem to remember this one not sounding great due to going to open fingering for the note (C) above B, but it may work in a jam.
I didn't work on rolls on the Boehm much as it became more and more obvious to me that I wanted an Irish flute for The Music. I find the Boehm way too clumsy for me. Hope that helps some.
Oh, also: the afforementioned Chris Abell wooden Boehm flute (which I think is *the* most beautiful thing I've *ever* seen) according to a pamphlet from about 5 years ago starts at $6500. Probably more now. BUT, if you are interested in getting a wooden Boehm for the tone for less $, do what I did. I bought an old German wooden Boehm flute that was unplayable (cracks, bad pads, general condition of neglect) for $200. I paid $300 to have it overhauled and it really was gorgeous, in looks and tone, after that. It wasn't quite A440, but it was close enough. I ended up selling it for $1100. So it was a good investment anyway. Well, I've blabbed on. Sorry - good luck with your info search.
# Posted on April 6th 2003 by cdavick
Re: Ornamentation on the Boehm flute
Glauber - I have to disagree with you, buddy - I have played a Rudall Carte Radcliffe, and it's a wooden flute with straightforward modern Boehm system fingering. I think you may be thinking of a Rudall Carte 1867 patent Boehm system, which is like the simple system, but with keys, and was a forerunner of the modern Boehm system. I have one of those, but have never got round to spending too much time learning to play it at speed, the mechanism seems so unwieldy.
But you're right wrt to why people nowadays use Boehm flutes because wooden ones are prohibitively expensive. That said, I've at least 3 wooden flutes, but prefer the Boehm system!
Danny
# Posted on April 6th 2003 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: Ornamentation on the Boehm flute
This is all good stuff and leaves me plenty to think about, so thanks heaps for it. As for the prices of new quality wooden flutes, it did influence me at the time. I had a second hand wooden flute and to replace it for a new one would have been a lot more than I paid for a new factory produced Pearl. Anyway and in the meantime I'll start buying Lotto tickets and hope for the best
Atanos
# Posted on April 6th 2003 by Atanos
Re: Ornamentation on the Boehm flute
Radcliffe: i have to defer to you, Dom, because i haven't played one, but i've seen one recently and the guy who had it also didn't think it was the same as the Boehm system. The liner notes for Paddy Carty's CD say something to the effect that he used that system because he considered it closer to the symple system fingerings than Boehm's. AFAIK, the fingering of the F and F# is one of the main things that keep people from jumping to Boehm right away, and there were multiple systems trying to get the extra venting and precision of the Boehm while retaining some of the old fingering.
Anyway, it also occurred to me to say that Irish music is only a little about ornamentation. Ornamentation is less important than phrasing, for example. You can develop a style that has sparse ornamentation and still works well as Irish music.
Another thing that occurred to me to say is that you can get a wooden head for your metal Boehm (that's what i have: http://www.woodenflutemaker.com) for a fraction of the cost of a wooden Boehm, and it will sound nice. It still won't sound the same as a "trad" flute (even a fully wooden Boehm won't) because of the body shape; the Boehm will always be more free blowing.
Good luck!
# Posted on April 6th 2003 by glauber
Re: Ornamentation on the Boehm flute
Now YOU've got ME thinking, Glauber! I'm pretty certain it was a Radcliffe someone lent me at a house session a couple of months ago. Sweet it was, also, and loud. The noise that came out was like a cloud of purple velvet!
I've got that Paddy Carty album - I'll check out the sleeve notes again.
But the one I've got is an 1867 patent. Maybe I should persevere with it.....
And you're right about the ornamentation thing - also it depends what style (county/whatever) you play. Micho Russell's style is very sparsely ornamented, and quite staccato (not my fave, I have to admit) compared to eg Tansey's (my fave!)
Danny.
# Posted on April 7th 2003 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: Ornamentation on the Boehm flute
I think it's too easy to get hung up with ideas about 'correct' ornamentation. As far as boehm system flutes go, there's actually very little that you can't do in the way of ornamentation, although those only used to keyless flutes will fing the keys cumbersome and awkward. I learned to play on one and found it easier in some cases to lift the 'fiddle ornaments' from O'Nieill's, say, than do 'proper' rolls, and this used to sort of worry me. However, as the years roll by (no pun intended), and the more music I hear, the more I look at the prescribed way of playing as being a good starting point for an individual's style and nothing more. Like it or not, we've left the era of regionality and entered the era of individual style, and there is no going back. Try listening to Matt Molloy, and then one of those old recordings by John McKenna. Idon't think that their ornamentation is constructed in the same way at all, yet both are the 'authentic' sound of the tradition....
# Posted on April 7th 2003 by Ottery
Re: Ornamentation on the Boehm flute
Clearly and thoughtfully put, as ever, Ottery. Try telling that to some of the old Comhaltas crowd though!
# Posted on April 7th 2003 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: Ornamentation on the Boehm flute
I've played both extensively, and used to play my French-model (open hole) "machine" exclusively until I decided to commit to a wooden five-key Pratten/R&R hybrid. Fingerings are slightly different here and there so things get a bit trappy if I don't pay attention, but I play them both the same stylistically. The sound is different between the two, but you can bear down and get a fantastic bark on a silver flute, too (just think about jazz players), and there's a lot to be said for the brilliance/ resonance -- as well as the flexibility in the higher register. The trill keys are also handy for quickie creative cuts/taps. And the low C/B extended foot is nice too on some of those slow airs, etc.
Interestingly, I attended a flute workshop with a fellow named John Skelton last weekend, and he mentioned that in the 1920s & '30s metal flutes were all the rage in at least American versions of ITM -- because they were mass-produced they were easier to get , and often, they were cheaper as well.
So basically, I say do whatever works. If you listen closely and have spent a lot of time with the metal version, it's easy to hear that Joanie Madden plays silver. I think some people don't like the fact that it sounds a little more polished, and almost too "perfect" tone & tuningwise (me among them). But stylistically I think she plays with very little difference.
Nowadays my silver flute spends most of its time sitting quietly in the closet, but I recently played a classical wedding that turned into a session during the prelude (seriously late bride), and it served me very well. (Transposition & certain rolls were a little exciting, but hey. We're talking music made by people who played whatever they could get their hands on, so is this any different?)
So I hope I haven't stepped in anything huge here, but I felt compelled to speak up on my dear old 80-B's behalf. Ultimately, I got great results out of it, and I have to admit, it sure was easier on the embouchure!
Have fun,
cat.
# Posted on April 7th 2003 by cwildeky
Re: Ornamentation on the Boehm flute
Atanos, You said in your previous post, that it was hard to get a good tone and volume out of your wooden flute. I dabbled a little with a silver flute (no formal or classical training) and now I play Irish music strictly on a wooden flute. It wasn't too hard for me to figure out how to play my old silver job. But the wooden flute took me much longer to get used to and develop a decent tone and volume. (of course I'm still working on getting better tone and volume but it gets better and better the more I play, practice and build up the stamina needed for a wooden flute)
The wooden flute was definitely harder for me in the beginning. Keep working at the wooden flute. It will come in time, just be patient. When it does happen, you will absolutely adore the wooden flute and never look back......I do have to admit that i have tried to play some tunes on my old silver flute (just for kicks), but the tunes felt so out of place and awkward, that this would only last a few minutes....but that's just me....
I'm not bashing the silver flute or anything, but I really love Irish wooden flute and hope you give it a chance.
Joyce
# Posted on April 7th 2003 by JMH
Radciff again
Here's what the liner notes for Paddy Carty's CD say:
"Paddy's first flute was the old 8-key model with open holes and conical bore, but after deciding that he wanted more power from the flute he switched to a metal Boehm-system flute which supplied it to a great extent. It had, however, certain fingering drawbacks and when Paddy made a trip to London he picked up a 'Radcliff Model' flute made by the Rudall Carte Company. This flute had the cylindrical bore of the Bowhm and its power but retained the basic fingering of the simple system, the fingering with which he was so familiar. Paddy considered this to be the ideal flute." (Daniel Michael Bollins - liner notes to "Traditional Irish Music").
The flute pictured on the album cover looks very Boehm-ian, but it clearly has a long F key for the L.H. pinky, next to the G# key.
The Radcliff was one of the many, many transition models which were made in England, France and Germany before Boehm's model became widely accepted. In Germany there was even a "Reform Flute" movement away from Boehm into something similar to these transition flutes, after the Boehm flute was already established. I saw a few of these weird flutes from Rick Wilson's collection (he's a flute collector from California, with about 3,000 flutes in playable condition). Some of them are really beautiful, using delicate ring-style keys to give you the keywork and also the open holes. Most of these are much more complicated than the Boehm, with all sorts of extra levers and oposing springs and whatever else they could throw in. One of the points of honour seems to be to keep the traditional fingering for the F# and F-natural (forked F) notes.
I wish there were a better Paddy Carty recording; i don't like the sound of that album.
g
# Posted on April 7th 2003 by glauber
Bollins?
Sorry, i meant Daniel Michael Collins. I proofread the post, but that escaped me.
# Posted on April 7th 2003 by glauber
Re: Ornamentation on the Boehm flute
Glauber - this thread is turning out be a fair bit of fun! I too have my copy of the vinyl album - and my RC 1867 -on my lap as I type!
I think you win this one!
It does look very Boehm-esque from that picture - apart from, as you say, the long F key. On the 1867you have to keep the G# key down, but if you want G#, you release it - wierd. I think that's what has put me off it.
The author of the notes you quoted, is Daniel Michael Collins, and the model is, as you say, spelt Radcliff.
So the wooden Rudall Carte I played must have been a Boehm.
Fair enough.
I like Cat's description of the "bark" you get from a Boehm - concurs with what I said earlier wrt dynamics.
Danny
# Posted on April 7th 2003 by Key Maniac Lad
Paddy Carty
Glauber - there is another Paddy Carty album, made with the Fiddle player Connor Tully, with Frank Hogan on Mandola, called, predictably, "Traditional Music of Ireland". It's a cassette, catalogue no. 002, on the Trad HC Label, whose address, in 1990, was:
G.T.D. Heritage Recording Co. Ltd.,
Ballybane Industrial Estate,
Galway,
Ireland.
Paddy's playing comes out very clearly, and there are many nice tunes on it. If you can't get a hold of it from that address - I imagine they'd be gone from there now - email me and I'll do you a tape copy.
Those musicians also feature on a part of the video made by Tony McMahon, "Come West Along the Road".
That first album, also called "Traditional Music of Ireland", with a very young Mick O'Connor, is of 1975 vintage, and the recording quality is not ideal. I used to know Mick, and he was telling me for his payment he received a number of copies of the album, to sell to his freinds! Now it's a "cult classic"!
Danny.
# Posted on April 7th 2003 by Key Maniac Lad
Paddy and the open G#
Danny,
I'll check the other album. Yes, the problem with the CD i have is the quality of the recording.
Just one more note about G#: Boehm's flute had an open G#, like you describe. Many people in Europe still prefer it this way, so some manufacturers offer it as an option. It makes the system simpler since you don' t need a double key for the G-nat, and apparently helps with the high E-nat too. Plus it keeps your fingers moving on the same direction (up) as you go up the scale, instead of going down for the G# and up for the other notes.
g
# Posted on April 7th 2003 by glauber
Re: Ornamentation on the Boehm flute
I can see your point wrt the open G# - but I couldn't get used to it. There are other differences with the 1867 ie the keys for Bnat and Fnat.
Having said that, since we've chatted here, I've had a mess around with it and it has a very tone...
Danny
# Posted on April 7th 2003 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: Ornamentation on the Boehm flute
Joyce-- Thanks for the encouragement to try again on the the wooden flute. I've got the wooden flute out again and I've started with tone exercises again. Again, many thanks.
# Posted on April 7th 2003 by Atanos
Re: Ornamentation on the Boehm flute
..it has a very NICE tone...
# Posted on April 7th 2003 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: Ornamentation on the Boehm flute
I agrre with Joice. I played jazz for many years with the silver flute, and I begun to play ITM with it. Now I have a wooden flute and I'm happy with it. Sometime the sound it's not very good,
but no matter. I love the wooden flute and I think is not a good idea play ITM on a silver one when you have a wooden flute.
Altanos, not all the wooden flutes are the same. Some are more easy to play then others. My first was a Hamilton, and it was harder to play then the McGee that I have now. Did you play others wooden flute?
# Posted on April 7th 2003 by gian marco
Re: Ornamentation on the Boehm flute
Atanos, I'm so happy to hear that you have started playing your wooden flute again. There will be days when your flute's tone and volume sound amazing and days where it seems to be fuzzy and hard to play. Sometimes the weather may play into this, but for the most part, it's wonderful instrument to play. Like I said, above, just be patient, it will get better and better for you.
I try and get flute lessons and attend workshops as often as I can. A good flute master might be able to give you some pointers to set you in the right direction. There are some great flute players who have definitely helped me with my embouchure.
I also agree with Gian Marco. Some flutes are definitely easier and louder to play than others. I used to own two very good wooden keyless flutes made by reputable makers. One was a quiet rudall & rose style flute that was difficult to play. I was told it would take a year to get used to and then it would sound great once I got dialed into it. My other one (which I currently play) is a pratten style that is very easy to play and fill and the tone and volume are very good. Both are good flutes, but the pratten style flute suited me better. (I sold the quiet flute to someone who fancied that style of flute)
Joyce
# Posted on April 8th 2003 by JMH
Re: Billy Clifford's flute
Glauber and Danny - what do you think of Billy Clifford's wooden flute? Is it similar to Paddy Carty's? I was going to bring the cassette into work today so I could post some accurate information but left it on the kitchen table......
I like his style and sound of that flute. I recently learned the Fermoy Lasses and Honeymoon reel from Billy Clifford. (Those tracks are also on the Mt Rushie compilation CD, so I slowed that down to learn the tunes)
Joyce
# Posted on April 8th 2003 by JMH
Re: Ornamentation on the Boehm flute
Gian Marco - if it's about whether the instrument is easy to play, then surely if you find the wooden easier to play, play it, but if you find Boehm easier, play that.
I personally find Boehm easier, but everyone is different.
If it's about the quality of the sound produced, that's a different thing.
Danny.
# Posted on April 8th 2003 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: Ornamentation on the Boehm flute
Danny, for me it just took a bit longer to develop good tone and volume on the wooden flute. Once I got dialed into the wooden flute, I didn't really find it harder than the silver flute (but I'm not an accomplished silver flute player). Atanos, give it some time for you to adjust to a different kind of flute. Once you're dialed into the wooden flute, it won't seem harder than the silver flute - I'm speaking from my own learning experience.
The funny thing is that when I do pull out the silver flute or play someone else's silver flute, I find it hard to get the same good tone I used to get before playing wooden flute and Irish music. My body is so adjusted to the wooden flute, that I would probably have to spend time working on my embouchure if I went back to the silver flute. But I'm still just a newbie to flute playing in general. Danny, you sound like you've been playing flutes for a very long time and probably have no problem going from silver to wood or vice versa. But for newcomers like me, that might be more tricky.
Joyce
# Posted on April 8th 2003 by JMH
Re: Ornamentation on the Boehm flute
Oh course, everyone who plays my current flute, is always impressed with how easy it is to play. So maybe if I was playing a different wooden flute which was hard to play, my above opinions might differ. So many variables to consider.....everyone and every situations is different.
# Posted on April 8th 2003 by JMH
Billy Clifford's flute
Joyce,
No idea. I don't even know who he is. Probably the best would be to ask in the WOODENFLUTE list. If you're not a member, i can ask there for you.
# Posted on April 8th 2003 by glauber
Re: Ornamentation on the Boehm flute
Glauber I have all the information at home. The exact kind of flute never stuck in my head so I can't remember what it is at the moment. I was just curious of your opinions. It's a wooden flute but with boehm style keys.
Billy Clifford is the son of Julia Clifford, the great fiddler from Kerry. I think she's still alive and would be in the same genre as Lucy Farr who recently passed away. They all lived in London for a while but the Cliffords came back to Kerry...or was it a county close to Kerry....not sure...I have a music buddy who loves all the old music from the Sliabh Luchra area (forgive my terrible spelling).
Joyce
# Posted on April 8th 2003 by JMH
Re: Ornamentation on the Boehm flute
I'm sorry if this has been mentioned already - I have skimmed through the thread and may have missed something. A Boehm flute player called Kathy Walton - described by Fintan Vallely as one of only two players who can play Irish music on silver flute - gives a workshop at the Return to Camden Town festival in London, specifically teaching Irish music to classical flute players. So if you can be in London in October, it's to be recommended.
# Posted on April 8th 2003 by granama
Re: Ornamentation on the Boehm flute
David - the other one was Danny Mackay, I hope, or that's the last time you're invited down to Lewisham, boyo!
And Joyce will ye stop with the "playing flutes for a very long time" malarky - I'm not that old!
I am, of course, messing around with the pair of Ye's. But, Joyce, it is possible to have had many years experience in a subject, but to have profitted little from it - I hope I don't fall into that category either.
David, Kathy Walton's reputation goes before her - I may have played in a few sessions with her about half a dozen years ago at the Powerhouse - Karen Ryan, Mick Conneely, John Coakley, Johnny O'Leary and all that gang. Joannie Madden turned up one day - she is presumably The Other silver flute player of The Music.
Since my last post, I have been doing a bit of thoughtful practice on all four yokes. My observations are thus:
1867 - unplayable for The Music, unless I were to give it half a decade running in time - I can get a better sound out of the fiddle right now, and that's not a pretty sound to behold.
Silver Boehm - Loud, therefore good for the session I play in on Sundays and lead about one third of the sets (there are three lead instrumentalists and we do co-exist quite symbiotically). Also, I can play fast but not with great technical delicacy. And it's very comfortable, when you're playing set after set after set.
Blackwood - or wooden (or timber), but my 2 decent ones (1in C and 1 in D) are coccuswood. - It took me a couple of tunes to get me warmed up (and longer for the flutes), but, although lacking volume, ornamentation is conceivably easier, and good cadence more achievable. Varied dynamics are harder to obtain than metal yoke. I found the stretch painful after a few tunes, and I had to concentrate on maintaining tight focussed embouchure for volume - so I'm not used to it.
Conclusion - I'll stick with what I'm doing for the time being, ie, mix n' match, but resolve to get out more, to get to sessions where flutes can be heard more, so I can get some playing on the blackwood yokes.
At least yer comments have made me think about it, so thanks the lot of Ye's!
Danny
# Posted on April 8th 2003 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: Ornamentation on the Boehm flute
Hi Danny, sorry about that. I was just implying you seem very experienced and knowledgeable about flute playing, not old : )
Check this out - I took my music buddies (guys in their twenties) down to Boston to O'Leary's this past fall. During a break, my friend and flute teacher asked me if my "cubscouts" were enjoying their field trip. He also asked if I was being a good "den mother".....very funny, but hey, I'm not that much older then my lads.......(just turned 33)
I always say, you're as young as you feel ; )
Joyce
# Posted on April 9th 2003 by JMH
Re: Ornamentation on the Boehm flute
Joyce - I was just joking!
Danny
# Posted on April 9th 2003 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: Ornamentation on the Boehm flute
I know, but I've been dying to tell my "den mother" story and this seemed like a good opportunity ; )
Cheers!
# Posted on April 9th 2003 by JMH
Re: Ornamentation on the Boehm flute
Danny, I was only quoting Fintan Vallely. I believe there are three people who can play Irish music on silver flute - I say 'believe' because I've never actually heard Kathy Walton. But I know her husband well and he say's she's good, so it must be true.
# Posted on April 11th 2003 by granama
3+1
"I believe there are three people who can play Irish music on silver flute"
Four then, because i play it all the time.
g
# Posted on April 11th 2003 by glauber
La Boehme
I took the Boehm (actually Myiazawa) flute out of the case yesterday for the first time in a month, and ran it through its paces. Folks, after one month of playing exclusively "trad" flute, switching to Boehm is like switching from a bicicle into a rocket.Whoever thinks Herr Boehm didn't know what he's doing, doesn't know what he's talking about.The power and flexibility of the tone are remarkable.
Having said that, there's a place for wooden flute too. the ornamentation is much more varied, the sound is, well, prettier. And in fact, if you're going to stay within the keys used in Irish music, wooden flute is much easier to learn.
# Posted on April 11th 2003 by glauber
Re: La Boehme
Glauber said, "And in fact, if you're going to stay within the keys used in Irish music, wooden flute is much easier to learn."
"Within the keys" is the key phrase--that's what I'm finding with whistle v. Boehm flute. I have a terrific time flipping through tunebooks looking for new repertoire material, tootling along on the whistle, until I flip to a page with F and Bb hornpipes. They're not problem a'tall on the Beohm.
Just using the right tool for the job, I think.
Marguerite
# Posted on April 12th 2003 by mvhplank
Re: Ornamentation on the Boehm flute
When I don't have a wooden flute, I prefer the whistle instead of the Bohem.
# Posted on April 15th 2003 by gian marco
Re: Ornamentation on the Boehm flute
For keys like F and Gm (1 and 2 flats), the keyed wooden flute works well. It takes a little practice, though, and will help you appreciate Herr Boehm's mechanism. But it's worth a try. In fact, all those keys were added (the flute had only 1 key for over 200 years) to allow playing in keys with lots of flats.
# Posted on April 15th 2003 by glauber
Good tune for keyed wood flute
Here's a fun tune, actually easy to play on the keyed flute.
http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display.php/1082
# Posted on April 15th 2003 by glauber
Re: Ornamentation on the Boehm flute
Tied the Crabs In The Skillet, Glaber, nice one! Still working on the wooden flute. It's a case of two steps forward ,one back. But tone and volume are getting better. Thanks again for the advice and encouragement. I'll keep at it until I'm "dialled In "
Atanos
# Posted on April 16th 2003 by Atanos