Okay, so I know how to determine what modal key a tune is in and I know what chords typically work well for each type of tune (ie. Dmix and so on).
Why do so many DADGAD backers furiously throw the capo on in the middle of a set, when the tune changes? Why do I need to capo a tune if I know the chords already? I know they do this because it's easier but could someone please exlpain HOW it's easier?
I know very little theory so if possible please just give me the basics.
Thanks.
Some people use a capo because they only know how to play in one key, and the capo makes that one thing into many things. But there's also room in this world for good players who want to use a capo -- it gives them a specific voicing that playing "open" does not, and they may find that voicing particularly desireable. The very reason someone uses DADGAD tuning, instead of so-called standard tuning, is either because they think it's easier or because it gives them a particular voicing (the order of the notes in the chord appeals to them). The same would be true of using a capo with that or any other tuning.
Why ?
Because the tuning suits tunes in the key of D, with all those drones.
If it's in G, capo up five frets and keep playing in D shapes.
If it's in A, seven frets.
And so on.
On a standard tuning guitar this doesn't apply.
Similarly I don't ( need to ) use a capo on my 'zouk for ITM, because the standard GDae tuning isn't polarised. Someone using GDad might find it different.
I think you're better served if you can avoid the capo. I don't have a ton of experience on guitar, but when I add a capo, it's not unusual to have to tune a few strings. I wish my repertoire of chords was better so I could avoid it. I'm sure it will come with time.
There also not a wealth of information out there on the dadgad tuning, imho.
This is one of the reasons I switched from DADGAD to Drop-D a couple of years ago. In Drop-D is a great compromise between DADGAD and standard, but I find I have far less need for a capo, only use it when I specifically want to shift the whole feel to the root key of the tune.
Capos are valuable tools, especially when accompanying singers, who often have particular keys that work best for particular songs, that often end up being Bflat and other keys extremely difficult without use of a capo. But they can also become a crutch to people who use them for nearly every key change--and the result is, other than the pitch, their accompaniment becomes rather monotonous, the same voicings and chord shapes for every tune. I have seen DADGAD guitarists who use capos very little, and do a whiz of a job, so it is possible to play without them.....
With so many Irish tunes showing up in D and G, accompaniment in DADGAD without a capo can begin to sound monotonous, too, with the same voicings and chord shapes showing up over and over again. My point was that good use of a capo can force unusual chord shapes into those keys, thereby varying the sound some.
Capoes get a bad rap because people who use them often do so because they HAVE to, but I think good guitarists tend to use them creatively. Not using them can be a crutch, too.
I know a guy who plays real well who lately has been leaving a capo on at 5th fret all the time, for all keys, to force himself to get familiar with some chord shapes he might not ordinarily use.
Usually I would find DADGAD all night a bit monotonous. As Cuchulain54 says the voicings are repetative and notes are often doubled. However, that can also be it's beauty if not overdone.
The best DADGAD playing I have seen was by the guitarist from a visiting Irish band that came to our session a couple of years ago. I forget his name unfortunately, but I've never forgotten his playing. He had a roller type capo at the nut and would slide the capo between tunes without breaking rhythm. He would also shift it during tunes to change certain sections of the tune with different shapes. In the right hands DADGAD and the humble capo can be used with great creativity.
The capoed DADGAD guitar has become synonymous with an accepted backing sound for a lot of people, and no doubt it suits tunes, but if I used Dadgad I would be more likely to explore the fingerings in A D G C and even F plus the related minors without one, because of the different sounds and feels that might be hidden in there. Of course if I was picking tunes in dadgad , which I don't ( I think concert is far more beefier, just with the 6th down to D ) and someone turned up with a instrument in Eb a capo would come in damn handy no doubt,
I do use one occasionally on Baritone guitar, but they can be disorienting, that is they distort your perception of the geography of the guitar, and I think that is the bottom line with capoes. Also if you have large hands they cramp you up in those new artificial open positions. Personal view only.
Chuneboi, all I'm suggesting is that if you're comfortable with all those fingerings, in A, D, G, F, related minors -- you could explore those fingerings WITH a capo, too, and find out that you could play some uncommon voicings in the common Irish keys.
I just feel bad when people diss capo use as being somehow substandard or not-heroic-enoug-for-me or something, when the point should just be, could it sound cool?
I'm personally pretty comfortable in any key, in standard, dropped D and DADGAD, without using a capo. I find myself unable to think of ways to use a capo creatively, but I see/hear people do it all the time, and when I remember to give it a try, I sometimes find some sounds that I think are interesting. I look at my inability/unwillingness to use a capo as a bit of a weakness; I'm not sure what's to be gained by seeing everything that we DON'T do as a testimonial to our own wonderfulness.
cuchulain54 -- OK, fair enough, I was only half serious. Like just about technique for doing anything, using a capo, or not using a capo (or using crutches, or not using crutches) can become something of a rut that one can get stuck in.
What I am getting at is that, at least for tune backing, you never really _need_ a capo. You can back a tune in any key without a capo if you know enough chords.
I personally dislike capos (is it obvious?). I think they are usually unnecessary. One of their main uses seems to be to allow lazy guitarists to remain lazy.
A secondary use is to look pretentious, to make it look as if you are doing something more complex and sophisticated than simply sliding your crutch into place.
Also, it's damned annoying and disruptive to be fracking with a stupid capo between tunes all the time. (Bluegrass banjo players do it all the time too.)
I have only rarely heard somebody use a capo to do something that I found truly interesting. I feel the same way about DADGAD, by the way.
Geez, I suppose I am coming off like a grumpy old man here. But there is some history and thought behind my position. As a long time guitar player (going on 24 years) who has never used a capo or alternate tunings, I suppose I am suspicious of these things because I have never felt I needed them and I have managed to be a skilled and versatile player without them. Even if they are occasionally useful, it will be hard to convince me that they are needed nearly as often as they are used in sessions.
While many of your points make sense --for example, that capo use usually IS a crutch, and that it's invariably cumbersome -- I guess where you and I differ is that I think I've heard people do interesting things with capos and in DADGAD. Interesting to me, anyway. Decent DADGAD players produce a sound that I don't think I've ever heard anybody in standard or dropped-d produce, although, standard and dropped-d players can do a lovely job, too.
I'd like to be able to do both, ideally. My DADGAD playing isn't good, at least when I'm backing -- it ends up sounding no more interesting than my standard or dropped-d backing. But man, listen to Daithi Sproule, or the old Micheal O'Domhnaill recordings. It's just a nice sound, in the right hands.
Sounds like using a capo is as divisive as the argument on whether you should use dots are not. Both are just tools, to be used to help as needed.
I've had conversations with lofty-minded fiddlers that think a capo on a guitar is a sign of not being fluent with your instrument, and then I go see John Doyle play with Liz Carroll and he uses one on occasion. Case closed.
"> He had a roller type capo at the nut and would slide the capo between tunes without breaking rhythm."
Bogman do you have any recollection of what the construction of the capo was like? Did it actually have rolls in it for each string or was it like this:
I have played the STD tuning all my life so I bought a QuickDraw capo sometime ago for the DADGAD tuning which I don't master so well yet. Frank Kilkelly advertises it in his book so I ordered a couple of them but so far I haven't been able to get it work too well. It may be that I should lower the nut to make it slide better from the home position on the nut, but what is unacceptable is that it also changes the tuning slightly when in the home position.
Inspired by the QuickDraw capo we have actually been thinking about making a couple of capos with rolls but if there is one on the market it would be easier to buy one than to have them made in a metal shop.
So Bogman, if you have anything more you can remember, please share with us.
Cuchalainn 54.
I'm not capo or dadgad bashing . I just like the rugged sound . I like a bit of a struggle. Sometimes struggling with hard keys makes my playing sound a bit more rugged, which is what I'm after in atmosphere, especially since I'm not that much of a tidy player anyway. I think dadgad on nylon string sounds wicked. And you are absolutely right , a capo can offer challenges say playing in the straight trad keys in unheard of positions . Why not. Anything to avoid being halfway through a set and bashing yourself up for playing the most uninspiring backing ever., which I experience on a regular basis. like, oh.no when will this set end so I can go and hide somewhere...
Chuneboi certainly is a decent backer... and he can really belt out a tune with that peppermint he calls a pick too!
I play DADGAD guitar... and mostly use a capo. I like the sound of the open strings. Plus i find it gives me slightly more time to concentrate on the rhythm and melodic backing.
I don't use a capo for accompanying/playing tunes, which I do in standard. Generally unes have set keys.
Songs don't. So for accompanying the human voice I'll use a capo so that I can match the accompaniment to the pitch that the singer finds most comfortable. I could certainly play some sort of accompanument to a song in all twelve keys but in some of them it would be pretty rudimentary. I mean if some singer asks for "Danny Boy" in Db they're going to get fairly rudimentary accompaniment if I'm not allowed to use a capo.
I remember showing another guitar player my new G7th capo and he said he didn't use one - it was just a substitute for skill. So I pointed to the Intellitouch attached to his headstock!
When I back tunes using DADGAD, I try to avoid that whole droney thing, and also avoid sliding the capo up and down the fret board using the same fingerings, but playing in different keys.
I keep the Capo on the 5'th fret, and leave it there.
Basically, it's a higher (or as savage suggested) Brighter sound.
Having said all that, my favorite backer of all traditional music, Alec Finn, has 6 strings on his bouzouki, four of them the same note, and he farts up and down the neck with his capo using similar fingerings......
How come when I do that, it sounds predictable and boring???
Ah well, back to the drawing board...
"As a long time guitar player who has never used a capo or alternate tunings" ...
This says it all.
Have you ever stopped to consider that maybe EADGBE is an
"alternate tuning" from DADGAD?
Okay, EADGBE is known as "Standard tuning".
(Is it pronounced "EEDGUBEE"?)
(I guess you could say that Windows is a standard computer operating system using that logic ) There are many alternate tunings. Every one of them practically gives you a new instrument to try out. One of the beautiful qualities of the guitar is that it is fully chromatic and easy to play in any key in any tuning with the help of a capo. This is ideal for singer accompaniment. It's also just fun to move the capo around in any tuning and discover new voicings for any song or tune that you've known for many years and maybe now needs a new kick to renew your appreciation. I should mention that I mainly play in "standard" but I frequently experiment with DADGAD and single and double dropped D tunings. I also own 3 capos from different makers. I advocate their use 100% by all levels of players. My favorite is Paige because it provides the most even pressure across the neck and strings and rarely requires retuning the strings. Unfortunately it broke recently so I need a new one.
''What I am getting at is that, at least for tune backing, you never really _need_ a capo. You can back a tune in any key without a capo if you know enough chords.''
Yeah that's not the point, the reason people use DADGAD is for that droney sound which allows for much room for counterpoint, harmony and complimenting the tune much more subtely than with EADGBE where you're forced to play crude bashing chords with the 5 primitive chord shapes that you know. It's a much more creative tuning.
''I personally dislike capos (is it obvious?). I think they are usually unnecessary. One of their main uses seems to be to allow lazy guitarists to remain lazy.''
Using a capo just retains that constant drone which allows you to keep crafting the harmony/counterpoint/differant chord shapes which compliments the tune. It's just like in Indian music where the drone is the base of the music and allows much more room for the melody players to express themselves within the tune rather than hovering over jazz chords for every bar.
''A secondary use is to look pretentious, to make it look as if you are doing something more complex and sophisticated than simply sliding your crutch into place.''
I think you're jealous - you can't comprehend that most DADGAD players ARE doing something complex and sophisticated..take a listen next time..
''Also, it's damned annoying and disruptive to be fracking with a stupid capo between tunes all the time. (Bluegrass banjo players do it all the time too.)''
It's not if you're skilled and subtle with it and have been at it a long time, in the end, its all worth it.
Get out of your shell man, discover the world, discover bands like Planxty, The Bothy Band etc. No use insulting what you don't know!
I used to employ the capo almost continuously backing tunes in DADGAD, but then several years ago I got tired of having to stop, put on/take off and get back into the tune. So I tried working out different chord inversions and variations such that I could easily change keys. I may not get that classic DADGAD drone sound in the D-sans-F# position as often, but because most of my chords use the bass strings a lot of melody players tell me they like what I do as it's easier for them to hear my rhythm.
I also find that working out variations on the chords and chord progressions can keep things from sounding too repetitive. I have about four different ways to play in D, for instance, and I can sometimes mix the progressions for additional variety.
Being a long-time DADGAD player, I have a couple of thigs to say as well:
- It IS true: a lot of DADGAD players employ voicing with lots of doubled/trippled notes, often leaving out the most important note, the 3rd. It's all just sliding 5th in only slightly varied configurations up and down the fretboard. I've seen (and heard) it all too often. Granted, these voicing can be useful sometimes, if you want to avoid giving a tune a too distinct Major/Minor sound, but just don't overdo it. These chords with the omitted 3rd is what some people like to call 'modal chords'. That's pure DADGAD lingo (ok, some Bouzouki players like to use that term as well). Problem is, there simply are NO 'modal chords'. There are modes (aka scales), but there are no modal chords. Full stop.
- I use a capo every now and then (about 20-25% of the time). Especially if you have a song in something like, I don't know, Dd-Minor, a capo helps a lot. There's no point in breaking you fingers (and the nerves of those listening to you) by bashing out some clumsy backing that sounds strained at best. Sure, you're a true guitar hero, you don't use a capo, but hey! I wouldn't need that.
- There's the sound. If you have a tune in A-Major, and you still want a lot of open strings for some melodic counter-runs inbetween chords or whatever, then the capo is the way to go. But you could also back up that same A-Major tune by putting the capo on the 2nd fret and then play in G-Major and voila! - there you go. And that sound is quite different from playing in D with the capo on the 7th fret or playing in A without any capo at all - and it IS the sound that matters.
- If you want to play DADGAD: learn to play without the capo in as many keys as possible. Find as many different voicing for every chord as you can. You'll find that, for session work, you will most probably settle on certain sets of voicing for most of the time, but it's still good to have some more stuff in petto. Just if opportunity arises.
- Playing DADGAD (especially in in D, of course) can be as simple as using three or even just two fingers most of the time. Yeah, why not - just listen to a lot of Micheal O'Domhnaill's guitar work, which is a perfect example. But as you delve deeper into DADGAD, exploring its not-so-accessible possibilities, you'll find that DADGAD is not really for the faint-hearted. Again, it boils down to sound. And personal preferences.
I agree with micheal eskin,use drop d,or better still double drop d,its easy to play in g and d,in double drop d,without using a capo,and you have your four middle strings in standard,using a capo in my opinion, just shows the limitations of the guitarist ,
The beauty of double DROP D,is it is close in tonality to dadgad,but the four middle strings give you standard tuning when you want it.
“using a capo in my opinion, just shows the limitations of the guitarist ,”
Aw, come on now. With that broad brush stroke, you’ve just painted some of the finest musicians in the trad music world. For some, it’s a crutch; for others, it’s just another tool.
"Yeah that's not the point, the reason people use DADGAD is for that droney sound which allows for much room for counterpoint, harmony and complimenting the tune much more subtely than with EADGBE where you're forced to play crude bashing chords with the 5 primitive chord shapes that you know. It's a much more creative tuning."
Wow, that's pretty presumptuous...
I play in Drop-D, and generally have three or four voicings for each mode/key that I can switch between to track the tune, I'd say its a pretty creative tuning. I'm with the previous poster. If its good enough for John Doyle, its good enough for me.
What I find boring are DADGAD players (and similarly bouzouki players) who know only one set of voicings and just move them around with the capo. The backup players should have to work at least half as hard as the melody players...
Michael Eskin... I FULLY agree... The backup players should work at least half as hard as melody players. I am off and running to teach a Dropped D workshop and will use your quote with credit if you don't mind.
I worry when someone walks in and says they want to learn guitar because it will be easier than a melody instrument. Played right it is just as complex when you get into the depths of it. I also find Dropped D for backing more versatile, and interesting due to the many different voicings.
PS... I really enjoyed your website, the donkeys especially. The little one is adorable....
Well...
Michael Eskin......I STILL KIND OF AGREE.....
Because..
"What I find boring are DADGAD players (and similarly bouzouki players) who know only one set of voicings and just move them around with the capo. The backup players should have to work at least half as hard as the melody players..."
and
"No, I don't find Alec Finn boring at all. Lovely stuff"
Well i back in standard tuning and use dropped D to support flatpicking the tunes,mostly in D. . And i work a lot harder than many melody players when i back , i dont see too many whistlers sweating!
Never spent any time in DADGAD, a different instrument allmost.
A Question for DADGAD guitar backers
A Question for DADGAD guitar backers
Okay, so I know how to determine what modal key a tune is in and I know what chords typically work well for each type of tune (ie. Dmix and so on).
Why do so many DADGAD backers furiously throw the capo on in the middle of a set, when the tune changes? Why do I need to capo a tune if I know the chords already? I know they do this because it's easier but could someone please exlpain HOW it's easier?
I know very little theory so if possible please just give me the basics.
Thanks.
# Posted on October 16th 2007 by MarcoTam
Re: A Question for DADGAD guitar backers
Some people use a capo because they only know how to play in one key, and the capo makes that one thing into many things. But there's also room in this world for good players who want to use a capo -- it gives them a specific voicing that playing "open" does not, and they may find that voicing particularly desireable. The very reason someone uses DADGAD tuning, instead of so-called standard tuning, is either because they think it's easier or because it gives them a particular voicing (the order of the notes in the chord appeals to them). The same would be true of using a capo with that or any other tuning.
# Posted on October 16th 2007 by cuchulain54
Re: A Question for DADGAD guitar backers
Why ?
Because the tuning suits tunes in the key of D, with all those drones.
If it's in G, capo up five frets and keep playing in D shapes.
If it's in A, seven frets.
And so on.
On a standard tuning guitar this doesn't apply.
Similarly I don't ( need to ) use a capo on my 'zouk for ITM, because the standard GDae tuning isn't polarised. Someone using GDad might find it different.
# Posted on October 16th 2007 by Guernsey Pete
Re: A Question for DADGAD guitar backers
I think you're better served if you can avoid the capo. I don't have a ton of experience on guitar, but when I add a capo, it's not unusual to have to tune a few strings. I wish my repertoire of chords was better so I could avoid it. I'm sure it will come with time.
There also not a wealth of information out there on the dadgad tuning, imho.
# Posted on October 16th 2007 by nofrets
Re: A Question for DADGAD guitar backers
I never use the capo on the bodhran because ...................................................
# Posted on October 16th 2007 by Saint
Re: A Question for DADGAD guitar backers
This is one of the reasons I switched from DADGAD to Drop-D a couple of years ago. In Drop-D is a great compromise between DADGAD and standard, but I find I have far less need for a capo, only use it when I specifically want to shift the whole feel to the root key of the tune.
# Posted on October 16th 2007 by Michael Eskin
Re: A Question for DADGAD guitar backers
Capos are valuable tools, especially when accompanying singers, who often have particular keys that work best for particular songs, that often end up being Bflat and other keys extremely difficult without use of a capo. But they can also become a crutch to people who use them for nearly every key change--and the result is, other than the pitch, their accompaniment becomes rather monotonous, the same voicings and chord shapes for every tune. I have seen DADGAD guitarists who use capos very little, and do a whiz of a job, so it is possible to play without them.....
# Posted on October 16th 2007 by AlBrown
Re: A Question for DADGAD guitar backers
With so many Irish tunes showing up in D and G, accompaniment in DADGAD without a capo can begin to sound monotonous, too, with the same voicings and chord shapes showing up over and over again. My point was that good use of a capo can force unusual chord shapes into those keys, thereby varying the sound some.
Capoes get a bad rap because people who use them often do so because they HAVE to, but I think good guitarists tend to use them creatively. Not using them can be a crutch, too.
I know a guy who plays real well who lately has been leaving a capo on at 5th fret all the time, for all keys, to force himself to get familiar with some chord shapes he might not ordinarily use.
# Posted on October 16th 2007 by cuchulain54
Re: A Question for DADGAD guitar backers
I fail to see how _not_ using a capo could be a crutch. That's like saying that not using crutches is just another kind of crutch.
# Posted on October 16th 2007 by timmy!
Re: A Question for DADGAD guitar backers
Usually I would find DADGAD all night a bit monotonous. As Cuchulain54 says the voicings are repetative and notes are often doubled. However, that can also be it's beauty if not overdone.
The best DADGAD playing I have seen was by the guitarist from a visiting Irish band that came to our session a couple of years ago. I forget his name unfortunately, but I've never forgotten his playing. He had a roller type capo at the nut and would slide the capo between tunes without breaking rhythm. He would also shift it during tunes to change certain sections of the tune with different shapes. In the right hands DADGAD and the humble capo can be used with great creativity.
# Posted on October 16th 2007 by bogman
Re: A Question for DADGAD guitar backers
Crazy Fingers, can you honestly not think of an instance wherein not using crutches is a kind of crutch?
# Posted on October 16th 2007 by cuchulain54
Re: A Question for DADGAD guitar backers
The capoed DADGAD guitar has become synonymous with an accepted backing sound for a lot of people, and no doubt it suits tunes, but if I used Dadgad I would be more likely to explore the fingerings in A D G C and even F plus the related minors without one, because of the different sounds and feels that might be hidden in there. Of course if I was picking tunes in dadgad , which I don't ( I think concert is far more beefier, just with the 6th down to D ) and someone turned up with a instrument in Eb a capo would come in damn handy no doubt,
I do use one occasionally on Baritone guitar, but they can be disorienting, that is they distort your perception of the geography of the guitar, and I think that is the bottom line with capoes. Also if you have large hands they cramp you up in those new artificial open positions. Personal view only.
# Posted on October 16th 2007 by chuneboi slim
Re: A Question for DADGAD guitar backers
Chuneboi, all I'm suggesting is that if you're comfortable with all those fingerings, in A, D, G, F, related minors -- you could explore those fingerings WITH a capo, too, and find out that you could play some uncommon voicings in the common Irish keys.
I just feel bad when people diss capo use as being somehow substandard or not-heroic-enoug-for-me or something, when the point should just be, could it sound cool?
I'm personally pretty comfortable in any key, in standard, dropped D and DADGAD, without using a capo. I find myself unable to think of ways to use a capo creatively, but I see/hear people do it all the time, and when I remember to give it a try, I sometimes find some sounds that I think are interesting. I look at my inability/unwillingness to use a capo as a bit of a weakness; I'm not sure what's to be gained by seeing everything that we DON'T do as a testimonial to our own wonderfulness.
# Posted on October 16th 2007 by cuchulain54
Re: A Question for DADGAD guitar backers
Not that anybody on this thread was doing that or anything....
# Posted on October 16th 2007 by cuchulain54
Re: A Question for DADGAD guitar backers
cuchulain54 -- OK, fair enough, I was only half serious. Like just about technique for doing anything, using a capo, or not using a capo (or using crutches, or not using crutches) can become something of a rut that one can get stuck in.
What I am getting at is that, at least for tune backing, you never really _need_ a capo. You can back a tune in any key without a capo if you know enough chords.
I personally dislike capos (is it obvious?). I think they are usually unnecessary. One of their main uses seems to be to allow lazy guitarists to remain lazy.
A secondary use is to look pretentious, to make it look as if you are doing something more complex and sophisticated than simply sliding your crutch into place.
Also, it's damned annoying and disruptive to be fracking with a stupid capo between tunes all the time. (Bluegrass banjo players do it all the time too.)
I have only rarely heard somebody use a capo to do something that I found truly interesting. I feel the same way about DADGAD, by the way.
Geez, I suppose I am coming off like a grumpy old man here. But there is some history and thought behind my position. As a long time guitar player (going on 24 years) who has never used a capo or alternate tunings, I suppose I am suspicious of these things because I have never felt I needed them and I have managed to be a skilled and versatile player without them. Even if they are occasionally useful, it will be hard to convince me that they are needed nearly as often as they are used in sessions.
# Posted on October 16th 2007 by timmy!
Re: A Question for DADGAD guitar backers
While many of your points make sense --for example, that capo use usually IS a crutch, and that it's invariably cumbersome -- I guess where you and I differ is that I think I've heard people do interesting things with capos and in DADGAD. Interesting to me, anyway. Decent DADGAD players produce a sound that I don't think I've ever heard anybody in standard or dropped-d produce, although, standard and dropped-d players can do a lovely job, too.
I'd like to be able to do both, ideally. My DADGAD playing isn't good, at least when I'm backing -- it ends up sounding no more interesting than my standard or dropped-d backing. But man, listen to Daithi Sproule, or the old Micheal O'Domhnaill recordings. It's just a nice sound, in the right hands.
# Posted on October 16th 2007 by cuchulain54
Re: A Question for DADGAD guitar backers
Sounds like using a capo is as divisive as the argument on whether you should use dots are not. Both are just tools, to be used to help as needed.
I've had conversations with lofty-minded fiddlers that think a capo on a guitar is a sign of not being fluent with your instrument, and then I go see John Doyle play with Liz Carroll and he uses one on occasion. Case closed.
# Posted on October 16th 2007 by nofrets
Re: A Question for DADGAD guitar backers
"> He had a roller type capo at the nut and would slide the capo between tunes without breaking rhythm."
Bogman do you have any recollection of what the construction of the capo was like? Did it actually have rolls in it for each string or was it like this:
http://www.quickdrawcapo.com/ ?
I have played the STD tuning all my life so I bought a QuickDraw capo sometime ago for the DADGAD tuning which I don't master so well yet. Frank Kilkelly advertises it in his book so I ordered a couple of them but so far I haven't been able to get it work too well. It may be that I should lower the nut to make it slide better from the home position on the nut, but what is unacceptable is that it also changes the tuning slightly when in the home position.
Inspired by the QuickDraw capo we have actually been thinking about making a couple of capos with rolls but if there is one on the market it would be easier to buy one than to have them made in a metal shop.
So Bogman, if you have anything more you can remember, please share with us.
# Posted on October 17th 2007 by Risto
Re: A Question for DADGAD guitar backers
" what is unacceptable is that it also changes the tuning slightly when in the home position. "
The reason for this is that I have to slide it over the nut and then it will rests on the strings....
# Posted on October 17th 2007 by Risto
Re: A Question for DADGAD guitar backers
will rest
# Posted on October 17th 2007 by Risto
Re: A Question for DADGAD guitar backers
Hey Risto
Have you ever seen one of these?
http://www.glidercapo.com/close-up
# Posted on October 17th 2007 by joesmith
Re: A Question for DADGAD guitar backers
Cuchalainn 54.
I'm not capo or dadgad bashing . I just like the rugged sound . I like a bit of a struggle. Sometimes struggling with hard keys makes my playing sound a bit more rugged, which is what I'm after in atmosphere, especially since I'm not that much of a tidy player anyway. I think dadgad on nylon string sounds wicked. And you are absolutely right , a capo can offer challenges say playing in the straight trad keys in unheard of positions . Why not. Anything to avoid being halfway through a set and bashing yourself up for playing the most uninspiring backing ever., which I experience on a regular basis. like, oh.no when will this set end so I can go and hide somewhere...
# Posted on October 17th 2007 by chuneboi slim
Re: A Question for DADGAD guitar backers
Rugged? Not tidy? Interesting terms; my guess is you're a decent backer. Interesting writer, anyway.
# Posted on October 17th 2007 by cuchulain54
Re: A Question for DADGAD guitar backers
Chuneboi certainly is a decent backer... and he can really belt out a tune with that peppermint he calls a pick too!
I play DADGAD guitar... and mostly use a capo. I like the sound of the open strings. Plus i find it gives me slightly more time to concentrate on the rhythm and melodic backing.
# Posted on October 17th 2007 by davydd
Re: A Question for DADGAD guitar backers
I think , forget the capo and learn to play in all keys without it... It's what I do...
# Posted on October 17th 2007 by wilfried
Re: A Question for DADGAD guitar backers
I don't use a capo for accompanying/playing tunes, which I do in standard. Generally unes have set keys.
Songs don't. So for accompanying the human voice I'll use a capo so that I can match the accompaniment to the pitch that the singer finds most comfortable. I could certainly play some sort of accompanument to a song in all twelve keys but in some of them it would be pretty rudimentary. I mean if some singer asks for "Danny Boy" in Db they're going to get fairly rudimentary accompaniment if I'm not allowed to use a capo.
I remember showing another guitar player my new G7th capo and he said he didn't use one - it was just a substitute for skill. So I pointed to the Intellitouch attached to his headstock!
# Posted on October 17th 2007 by DonaldK
Re: A Question for DADGAD guitar backers
Does'nt anybody else here use the cappo just to 'brighten' the sound of the guitar??
Hmmmmm.... surprising!
# Posted on October 17th 2007 by session savage
Re: A Question for DADGAD guitar backers
Laitch, thats an interesting one. Thanks for the link.
# Posted on October 17th 2007 by Risto
Re: A Question for DADGAD guitar backers
I like how cuchulain54 put it quite simply above.
When I back tunes using DADGAD, I try to avoid that whole droney thing, and also avoid sliding the capo up and down the fret board using the same fingerings, but playing in different keys.
I keep the Capo on the 5'th fret, and leave it there.
Basically, it's a higher (or as savage suggested) Brighter sound.
Having said all that, my favorite backer of all traditional music, Alec Finn, has 6 strings on his bouzouki, four of them the same note, and he farts up and down the neck with his capo using similar fingerings......
How come when I do that, it sounds predictable and boring???
Ah well, back to the drawing board...
# Posted on October 17th 2007 by Hugo Chavez
Re: A Question for DADGAD guitar backers
"As a long time guitar player who has never used a capo or alternate tunings" ...
This says it all.
Have you ever stopped to consider that maybe EADGBE is an
"alternate tuning" from DADGAD?
Okay, EADGBE is known as "Standard tuning".
(Is it pronounced "EEDGUBEE"?)
(I guess you could say that Windows is a standard computer operating system using that logic ) There are many alternate tunings. Every one of them practically gives you a new instrument to try out. One of the beautiful qualities of the guitar is that it is fully chromatic and easy to play in any key in any tuning with the help of a capo. This is ideal for singer accompaniment. It's also just fun to move the capo around in any tuning and discover new voicings for any song or tune that you've known for many years and maybe now needs a new kick to renew your appreciation. I should mention that I mainly play in "standard" but I frequently experiment with DADGAD and single and double dropped D tunings. I also own 3 capos from different makers. I advocate their use 100% by all levels of players. My favorite is Paige because it provides the most even pressure across the neck and strings and rarely requires retuning the strings. Unfortunately it broke recently so I need a new one.
# Posted on October 17th 2007 by halfwaythere
Re: A Question for DADGAD guitar backers
''What I am getting at is that, at least for tune backing, you never really _need_ a capo. You can back a tune in any key without a capo if you know enough chords.''
Yeah that's not the point, the reason people use DADGAD is for that droney sound which allows for much room for counterpoint, harmony and complimenting the tune much more subtely than with EADGBE where you're forced to play crude bashing chords with the 5 primitive chord shapes that you know. It's a much more creative tuning.
''I personally dislike capos (is it obvious?). I think they are usually unnecessary. One of their main uses seems to be to allow lazy guitarists to remain lazy.''
Using a capo just retains that constant drone which allows you to keep crafting the harmony/counterpoint/differant chord shapes which compliments the tune. It's just like in Indian music where the drone is the base of the music and allows much more room for the melody players to express themselves within the tune rather than hovering over jazz chords for every bar.
''A secondary use is to look pretentious, to make it look as if you are doing something more complex and sophisticated than simply sliding your crutch into place.''
I think you're jealous - you can't comprehend that most DADGAD players ARE doing something complex and sophisticated..take a listen next time..
''Also, it's damned annoying and disruptive to be fracking with a stupid capo between tunes all the time. (Bluegrass banjo players do it all the time too.)''
It's not if you're skilled and subtle with it and have been at it a long time, in the end, its all worth it.
Get out of your shell man, discover the world, discover bands like Planxty, The Bothy Band etc. No use insulting what you don't know!
# Posted on October 17th 2007 by ecidralla
Re: A Question for DADGAD guitar backers
I used to employ the capo almost continuously backing tunes in DADGAD, but then several years ago I got tired of having to stop, put on/take off and get back into the tune. So I tried working out different chord inversions and variations such that I could easily change keys. I may not get that classic DADGAD drone sound in the D-sans-F# position as often, but because most of my chords use the bass strings a lot of melody players tell me they like what I do as it's easier for them to hear my rhythm.
I also find that working out variations on the chords and chord progressions can keep things from sounding too repetitive. I have about four different ways to play in D, for instance, and I can sometimes mix the progressions for additional variety.
# Posted on October 17th 2007 by sts
Re: A Question for DADGAD guitar backers
Being a long-time DADGAD player, I have a couple of thigs to say as well:
- It IS true: a lot of DADGAD players employ voicing with lots of doubled/trippled notes, often leaving out the most important note, the 3rd. It's all just sliding 5th in only slightly varied configurations up and down the fretboard. I've seen (and heard) it all too often. Granted, these voicing can be useful sometimes, if you want to avoid giving a tune a too distinct Major/Minor sound, but just don't overdo it. These chords with the omitted 3rd is what some people like to call 'modal chords'. That's pure DADGAD lingo (ok, some Bouzouki players like to use that term as well). Problem is, there simply are NO 'modal chords'. There are modes (aka scales), but there are no modal chords. Full stop.
- I use a capo every now and then (about 20-25% of the time). Especially if you have a song in something like, I don't know, Dd-Minor, a capo helps a lot. There's no point in breaking you fingers (and the nerves of those listening to you) by bashing out some clumsy backing that sounds strained at best. Sure, you're a true guitar hero, you don't use a capo, but hey! I wouldn't need that.
- There's the sound. If you have a tune in A-Major, and you still want a lot of open strings for some melodic counter-runs inbetween chords or whatever, then the capo is the way to go. But you could also back up that same A-Major tune by putting the capo on the 2nd fret and then play in G-Major and voila! - there you go. And that sound is quite different from playing in D with the capo on the 7th fret or playing in A without any capo at all - and it IS the sound that matters.
- If you want to play DADGAD: learn to play without the capo in as many keys as possible. Find as many different voicing for every chord as you can. You'll find that, for session work, you will most probably settle on certain sets of voicing for most of the time, but it's still good to have some more stuff in petto. Just if opportunity arises.
- Playing DADGAD (especially in in D, of course) can be as simple as using three or even just two fingers most of the time. Yeah, why not - just listen to a lot of Micheal O'Domhnaill's guitar work, which is a perfect example. But as you delve deeper into DADGAD, exploring its not-so-accessible possibilities, you'll find that DADGAD is not really for the faint-hearted. Again, it boils down to sound. And personal preferences.
Over and out.
# Posted on October 17th 2007 by Mario
Re: A Question for DADGAD guitar backers
...should be Db-MInor, of course, not Dd...
# Posted on October 17th 2007 by Mario
Re: A Question for DADGAD guitar backers
I agree with micheal eskin,use drop d,or better still double drop d,its easy to play in g and d,in double drop d,without using a capo,and you have your four middle strings in standard,using a capo in my opinion, just shows the limitations of the guitarist ,
The beauty of double DROP D,is it is close in tonality to dadgad,but the four middle strings give you standard tuning when you want it.
# Posted on October 17th 2007 by anon
Re: A Question for DADGAD guitar backers
ecidralla -- Sorry if I riled you up. I am not as sheltered as you seem to think I am...
# Posted on October 17th 2007 by timmy!
Re: A Question for DADGAD guitar backers
“using a capo in my opinion, just shows the limitations of the guitarist ,”
Aw, come on now. With that broad brush stroke, you’ve just painted some of the finest musicians in the trad music world. For some, it’s a crutch; for others, it’s just another tool.
# Posted on October 17th 2007 by Bob himself
Re: A Question for DADGAD guitar backers
"Yeah that's not the point, the reason people use DADGAD is for that droney sound which allows for much room for counterpoint, harmony and complimenting the tune much more subtely than with EADGBE where you're forced to play crude bashing chords with the 5 primitive chord shapes that you know. It's a much more creative tuning."
Wow, that's pretty presumptuous...
I play in Drop-D, and generally have three or four voicings for each mode/key that I can switch between to track the tune, I'd say its a pretty creative tuning. I'm with the previous poster. If its good enough for John Doyle, its good enough for me.
What I find boring are DADGAD players (and similarly bouzouki players) who know only one set of voicings and just move them around with the capo. The backup players should have to work at least half as hard as the melody players...
# Posted on October 18th 2007 by Michael Eskin
Re: A Question for DADGAD guitar backers
Right Michael I kind of agree....
What about Alec Finn?
Do you find him boring?
# Posted on October 18th 2007 by Hugo Chavez
Re: A Question for DADGAD guitar backers
No, I don't find Alec Finn boring at all. Lovely stuff.
# Posted on October 18th 2007 by Michael Eskin
Re: A Question for DADGAD guitar backers
Michael Eskin... I FULLY agree... The backup players should work at least half as hard as melody players. I am off and running to teach a Dropped D workshop and will use your quote with credit if you don't mind.
I worry when someone walks in and says they want to learn guitar because it will be easier than a melody instrument. Played right it is just as complex when you get into the depths of it. I also find Dropped D for backing more versatile, and interesting due to the many different voicings.
PS... I really enjoyed your website, the donkeys especially. The little one is adorable....
# Posted on October 20th 2007 by irisnevins
Re: A Question for DADGAD guitar backers
Well...
Michael Eskin......I STILL KIND OF AGREE.....
Because..
"What I find boring are DADGAD players (and similarly bouzouki players) who know only one set of voicings and just move them around with the capo. The backup players should have to work at least half as hard as the melody players..."
and
"No, I don't find Alec Finn boring at all. Lovely stuff"
Are SORT OF contradicting each other...
discuss..
# Posted on October 22nd 2007 by Hugo Chavez
Re: A Question for DADGAD guitar backers
Well i back in standard tuning and use dropped D to support flatpicking the tunes,mostly in D. . And i work a lot harder than many melody players when i back , i dont see too many whistlers sweating!
Never spent any time in DADGAD, a different instrument allmost.
# Posted on October 23rd 2007 by the wicked hacker