This can be anything, a particular player/group, regional style, instrument, type of tune. Everythings open to be disliked here.
What's the point you may ask, why be so negative?
Well without wanting to sound like a shrink, it's obvious in many threads that people have their pet peeves about trad, I think it would be interesting for everyone just to be able to let it all out here in one thread without fear of upsetting some newbie or young kid or good natured person who posts a discussion about how they think the bodhrán is great or something like that.
It would be good (but it probably won't happen) if people are allowed to say these things without someone with an opposing view snapping back at them. So the main purpose of this thread is to just express your dislike of something without fear of recrimination.
I'll start it off by saying that with a few exceptions I can't stand piano in ITM because the way they tend to be played destroys the music, the rhythm, the harmony, the sound, only the odd player can add something to the music by playing piano.
There that feels good, it's a bit like an AA meeting......not that I've ever been to one of them
without fear of upsetting some newbie or young kid or good natured person who posts a discussion about how they think the bodhrán is great or something like that.
Posted on October 13th 2007 by frisbee
That's what I dislike, sweeping, unfounded generalisations. Why would it need to be a newcomer or a "Kid" or even good natured, whatever that has to do with anything, to profess a liking for bodhrans?
The hidden tone here implies that only mis-guided types could like bodhrans. Such an assumption is clearly harassment and bullying of bodhran players. There are equality laws applicable to this.
The only thing I dislike is that if you go to a session people seem warm and friendly. If you come to a web site like this one, you find out that all that friendly exterior is hiding seething rage against any faux paux you might have made, which means that if you spend any time here, you are going to be incredibly, neurotically scared to death the next time you go to a session.
bliss you completely misread what I meant by that, I like bodhrán (when played well) it was just an example of the kind of post that often gets swamped by negative comments!
I don't like noisy bars where I can't hear myself, let alone the other players. But, then, I still have fun and no one can hear my mistakes!
I don't like people who insist on telling me how to play but say nothing to other players. I do believe one person is picking on me. I don't lead -- I just try to follow. It's an open session so my begining abilities shouldn't be a problem. I have played another session (twice now) and one of the players told me I should stay when I was leaving. And, it wasn't one of my better sessions.
I don't like the reality of it or the modernity of it all.
I wish the bodhran was a remnant of our primitive ancestors that would be played for an ancient tribal dance around an autumn bonfire. That, in days of yore long forgotten, the low d could have been heard for miles across the misty and mystic valleys as the sun rose or as the simple but happy people finished their work or contemplated the unknowable, played by some unseen shepherd lass or lad. That friends and families, who have played their part and now rest in the mossy, shady churchyard, would have gotten together during idle times around someone's hearth and share tunes, songs, steps, and stories of long ago, of kings, gods, saints and heroes. That the fairies, long banished from heavenly realms, delivered magical, divine or mischievous tunes to mortals worthy and otherwise.
Then I come here the mustard bubble burster. Thanks everyone. Sigh. I still suffer from the devastation of here finding out the low d was invented in the 1970's.
I'll start it off by saying that with a few exceptions I can't stand piano in ITM because the way they tend to be played destroys the music, the rhythm, the harmony, the sound, only the odd player can add something to the music by playing piano.
-------
Without offending anyone - I have to agree with that. Sometimes you'll get a really nice trad. cd or tape and when you put it on it has that annoying, thumping piano in the back of it. Seems to come up particularly on banjo cd's. I know it's controversial, but I'd much prefer backup guitar.
About pianos, I like them if they don't become too dominant. If the backing up is intelligent it doesn't matter with which instrument it is played, even with pianos. With a piano you can spoil things pretty easily but so can you with guitars or with anything for that matter.
I agree with bodhran bliss, there are just too many generalisations.
I also like bodhrans when in the proper place with proper playing.
I forgot to say what I don't like. There are lots of bad tunes in ITM recorded with a monotonous feel, and bad fiddling, records that should never have been done. Even a good tune can't save a badly fiddled tune IMO. These are what make people not to like ITM, I've noticed this in our household. But then, this applies to all sorts of music. Record making has just become too easy these days.
One more for the piano (well, 90% of it). Piano accompanyment to Irish tunes is to be compared with a drumkit in ITM: it cuts the music in small pieces, making it 'square' instead of letting it flow.
Mind : I love piano. Give me Schubert, Bartók or Scarlatti any time. I play a lot of classical music piano recordings.
I like the piano in trad, in a way. It is the most traditional backing instrument i know of. .All solo players should do their first album with piano backing. To be authentic.
The drink would be my main dislike,that and the p1ss heads. Oh and people who play the fiddle for2 weeks and join in the session.
and people who think they know it all but actually know very little. And people who hijack a set with their favourite, unknown, tune, reducing a kicking set to a dying cat! And people with no respect for differing viewpoints,and ...and ....and......
The thing I don't like about ITM is that there are too many people playing it who don't like been backed by pianos, drummers or bodhran players (good ones of course), PAs and accordion basses in general. Strangely most of the things I've mentioned were putting the rhythm in Irish Trad Music long before the guitar family was heard of.
Disclaimer: There are too many things I like about ITM, and the people who play it, for any dislikes to even compare!
There...that being said there are a few pet peeves...
Control. I don't like it when anyone tries to be controlling of another's playing or preferred instrument.
Exclusivity. I see the motivation that better players have for wanting to do their own thing and excluding others, often in not so subtle ways. I know it happens, I just don't like it.
Popularity. Hey, I put a lot of time and effort into practicing and polishing my playing (not that it always shows !!!). Why, dammit, can't this type of music be more appealing to the masses!!!
My first exposure to Irish music all had piano's and the rat-tat-tat, and clickity-clack of drum kits with old ceili band records. I love it, and recognize it as being from that era. It was dance music. Obviously the music and how people arrange it has evolved quite a bit since 1940, and most people, especially those who play it, prefer it more streamlined. Rarely do I hear those instruments being applied to what most consider "ITM" nowadays. Unless somebody like Lunasa decides to add piano and a snare to their next recording, those instruments will always be associated with a by-gone era.
I do not like or enjoy excess in anything involving the music.
I do not like too many flutes or fiddles or guitars or even too many bodhrans. (I enjoy being able to appreciate each one's individual qualities, that's all.)
I do not like rhythm vs. rhythm, as in guitar against drum, piano vs. other backers, etc. Have one or the other, but not both.
I also do not like a session being too serious or too chaotic.
I do, however, wish for a world, musically speaking, where there is room for all of us, particularly here at this site. I will admit that I naively believe that something almost spriitual can occur when this music is being played. The cynics here who shoot down others views are a sad nasty lot indeed when they get going ( naturally they are entitled to their opinion too) and when I read feardarg's entry, I felt disappointed that you cannot discuss that aspect of music here without likely getting insulted by the soulless contingent.
Kind of a shame, really. But hey, my people, past and present, are still with me. Beat that.
I don't like people playing too fast - partly because it's hard work to play along, but mainly because I feel that they somehow *just don't get it*. What's the rush? Don't they realise what they are missing by not taking the time to savour each note, feeling the pulse etc
There are some great traditional players who play fast. I'm not knocking them. What I'm referring to is mainly (although not exclusively) a disease of those who have come to Irish music from another background, somewhere along the line having picked up the formula "Irish Traditional Music is fast, ergo faster = more Irish".
Peeve #1 is the multitude of players that try to play Irish without listening to enough of it. Often these are the players that play other forms of trad music, be it Scottish, bluegrass, old time, Breton, or whatever. They may be technically talented, but they *don't sound Irish*, which makes for a bit of a muddy push and pull situation that just grates on my nerves.
Peeve #2, to contrast NCRC, is playing the music too slowly. I can enjoy a good slow set, played with lots of feel, as much as the next guy. But jigs often sound like dirge marches, and reels don't bounce enough if they're not played fast enough. It's really all about the rhythm, not the speed, of course, but the combination of speed and rhythm can be magical!
I strongly agree with peeve #1. Too many musicians from other backgrounds trying to play ITM - but it runs deeper than pure technique. It goes against the grain to say these people should not play - they have as much right as anyone - but when the soul isn't there the music just sounds flat. That's why I don't play flamenco though I love it. It is normally easy to spot the 'non-Irish' players but I had all that blown when I heard Kasir. I know the Bodhran player’s father is Irish but the rest are Danes – unbelievable !!!
I don't have a sore spot in "traditional" music, but I really hate when someone's playing Inisheer, Danny Boy, or other Irish tenors stuff, and then claim to be playing ITM, or when said people show up to a session and expect us to be playing said songs.
Rev and SeanMc, wouldn't you say that "peeve #1" constitutes about 80 percent or more of the "gripe" threads on this forum? I think you may have just hooked the biggest fish in the pond.
I won't use the "C" word. The other night we were talking about the rules people apply to Irish music. All the while insisting it is simple diddly music without rules. Then we were contrasting Irish sessions with some of the Canadian & Scottish sessions we had attended which were not as stuffy as some of the Irish sessions. I don't like to generalize ~ but you asked.
Good grief! I'll be scared away from sessions until I'm old and gray if I keep listening to you guys!
Is it really the sound of the individual instruments you dislike (i.e. bodhran!!!!) or is it poor playing perhaps? Or is it because the bodhran has only been used in trad as of relatively recently? Why so much bodhran hate?
If it works for Kevin Conneff and Christy Moore it most certainly works for me.
James Barry; I just looked over the thread & saw many kind references to bodhran. One person mentioned they do not like "too many" bodhrans in a session.
No problem. From time to time mustard people can be downright mean, arrogant, cranky . . . yet ~
there are many wonderful people here.
Are you sure this isn't a windup frisbee?
I didn't grow up playing Irish music but some pianists make lovely music regardless of the genre.
Reminds me of the old joke where a guy captures a near-deaf leprechaun and ends up with a crock of mold, a big mouse in the country, and a twelve inch pianist....(ahem)
James Barry, a bit of slagging is only natural on a forum like this. Most of the time, it's a just good natured poke in the ribs.
but this is no wind-up regarding pianos, I like piano in jazz, classical, pop or whatever but most of the time in trad it just annoys me, as I said there are some notable exceptions.
Good for you frisbee.
BTW that was not a windup but a hijack.
Unless I get a pianist everyday it just drives me crazy that mustard members cannot . . . woops almost did it again.
Windup: a post intended to stimulate controversy.
Hijack: response(s) in a thread which are deliberately off-topic
Orderly discussion: notable exceptions
Pianist: done that been there
"What aspects of ITM do you not like and why?"
I really like this song when anyone else sings.
"This can be anything, a particular player. . ."
In my opinion Eileen Ivers is part of Irish Traditional Music.
Others might disagree but I believe tradition is how players develop the music while keeping 'some' connection with the past.
Endless bad regurgitation of misheard tunes of of the Cheiftains series of CDs.
Foreigners ( to Ireland that is) whom correct me for playing different versions to those on the Chieftain CDs which the Oirish musakian wrongly assumes are the best of right version.
''The thing I don't like about ITM is that there are too many people playing it who don't like been backed by pianos, drummers or bodhran players (good ones of course), PAs and accordion basses in general. Strangely most of the things I've mentioned were putting the rhythm in Irish Trad Music long before the guitar family was heard of.''
well said Free Reed, and oddly enough the thing about ITM I really don't like is when you get a guitarist with no sense of rhythm who just strums along chords aimlessly out of time with what you're doing...
(Before all the guitarists here get up in arms I'd hasten to add that I have also played with some very good guitarists, just there do seem to be some that havn't got a clue )
Swing-tuned Paulo Soprani boxes are my pet dislike, and badly thought-out accordion bass playing, coin on the bottle merchants, backers who can't recognise a key, backers who play repetitive pre-learned patterns to impress themselves, and people whose minds are welded shut.
On the not being Irish but playing ITM - should that reduce me to only the music for my ethnic background?
No -- a true musician should be able to play the music before them. However, it should be chosen because of enjoyment. And, there is a lot of things in Irish music which are a lot like the music for my ethnic background. There are differences and I'm certainly playing ITM with those differences in mind.
I love it when someone recognises that "ITM" is an abbreviation, not an acronym.
I love it when I see dozens of bodhrans hanging up in a shop. Hanging up in a shop. Hangi.....
I love piano accompaniment if well played.
I love guitar accompaniment if well played.
I love bouzoukis if well played.
I love the impossibility that a piano accordion or a recorder can be well played in ITM.
I love it when people recognise that sessions are the Johnny-come-latelies of ITM and that such people are therefore humble enough to accept that what applies to sessions applies to sessions and not to ITM in general.
I love nearly all those tunes that ITM snobs say they hate simply because they are asked for a lot or played a lot: those tunes are popular because they are good tunes. Harvest Home, Concertina Reel, Kesh Jig...you know the ones. And those lovely song tunes too, like Danny Boy, with which there is absolutely nothing wrong.
I just hate Drowsy Bloody Maggie and Johnny Bloody Cope.
What kind of thread is this anyway?
Everyone is like saying what they think.
I had a great post all typed out & it was just too funny, at least to me.
I just couldn't bring myself to post it. So I deleted the whole thing.
Good job frisbee you've sucked all the fun out of our sacred mustard stained board. The thing I don't like about ITM is ~ it's all happy-huggy these days. Give me good old fashioned Irish guilt & misery any day. Here's to you. "The pipes, the pipes are calling . . ."
Steve asking the Irish (especially Irish musicians) to complain is like asking a 4-year old, "Who wants more candy?"
They just eat it up & ask for more.
In Irish music don't like a lot of those flat non harmonically moving tunes like Foxhunters or Gravel Walks. Even Humours of Tulla falls into that category and can sometimes sound like that to me, although I don't mind playing along with that one.
On the other hand I love the pretty ones like Over the Moor to Maggie or The Providence Reel.
Is that the Oak Cask or the regular? That's been one of my favorite under $10 cabs for about 15 years (back when I could get the Oak Cask for $6 and the regular for $4). The only disappointing bottle I've ever had, though, was in the UK in '96.
I pronounce it tra-PEACH-eh? with the 'r' pronounced as if by a Scotsman, the 'eh?' like a Canadian, and the second syllable by someone who likes peaches 18% more than the average ITM basoonist.
I've been wondering about piano in ITM...never sounds quite right to me. Maybe it's the equal tempered, non-folky sound and all that, i.e. not just tempered and not edgy; like using a silver flute...just not quite right.
What I hate is when some old guy, stinking of beer, walks in half-way through the session, and someone shouts out, "Oh! You must hear this guy play, he's the most amazing fiddler I've ever met."
"Oh, but I haven't got me fiddle", says he.
All eyes turn towards me. Being the only fiddler in the session maybe isn't such a great thing.
"Joe! I'm sure you won't mind lending him your fiddle, will you?"
"Of course not!"
"Oh, maybe I will in a bit, then. For one or two tunes," he says, and goes off. About ten drinks later he returns, waits till the end of a set, takes the fiddle out of my hands and starts playing.
If he'd been as good as he had been made out to be, or even just good, I'd have sit back and enjoyed, and been proud to have lent him my fiddle. But the sounds that came out of my instrument at that point were some of the most horrible, screetchiest sounds I've ever heard come out of it. He played tune after tune in this way, probably a set of about six, all the while crouched over the fiddle as if the rest of the session didn't exist, or they were just his backing band. And that wasn't all. At about the second or third time round each tune, he went of into some improvisatory bit, still in the same screetchy manner, as if it were time for his solo. And after the set, he held on to my fiddle, and started breathing his smoky alcoholic breath into my face, lecturing me about himself, and the shortcomings of my fiddle, and how I should be "freer" when I play. He asked me why I sit out on all the songs. "Because I don't sing, and I don't know any of them", I replied.
"Oh, but that doesn't matter, you can just jam along to them. Why don't you?"
I didn't have any answer to that.
So along came a song, and he jammed his way through the whole thing, and, of course, it didn't sound that good.
The rest of the night carried on in that vein, and I left somewhat disgruntled.
You showed great willpower and composure young Joe and there was no harm done then, but what would have happened
if he had have dropped, stood on or sat on your fiddle, the alcholic moron would have looked up at you with a helpless look just before you committed an unspeakable act of violence
with a chair or something similar.
Say no too these fools, and to your session mates as well who put you on the spot about lending the goose your fiddle.
There's power in refusal. Enjoy everyone else's discomfort when you say no. Dr Slim.
i hate it when people ruin good tunes! i found myself hating the maid behind the bar because someone had played it badly.
in contrast, i love finding old recordings with the very tunes that everybody shuns now played gorgeously, like the rakes of mallow or irish washerwoman.
I hate it when a cool tune is played at a session and everyone else knows it but me, so I should learn it, but things go too fast afterwards and I can't find out the name of the tune.
Yes, I'm with Tonya for the guilt and misery thing. This music isn't meant to be cheerful. The one thing I don't like is people whooping it up like they're having just the grandest time. And applause - that should be banned. People don't play this music expecting to be liked, you know, or they wouldn't get very far if they did.
Trapiche is a word I pronounce differently according to how much Trapiche I've supped. I didn't know that there was an oak cask version. This stuff sells for £5.99 usually but I bought a cartload of it when Morrisons were selling it for two quid off. That's how I live. There is something I don't like about today's ITM (sensu lato). It's flashy young buggers of the Lunasa/Flook ilk who have all the technique but none of the soul, but they obviously "want to take ITM to a new level" (as if it needs it). They'll be OK in about 25 years I suppose. Don't fight me on that point please. It's only my opinion.
People who disregard song and dance. It's easy to forget that tunes are only one third of the tradition. In many languages "music" and "dance" are the same word. And I like that, and think that it maybe should be honoured in ITM (I expect a torrent of disagreement but am happy in the knowledge that I have just managed to hook my earring to my bracelet and am typing this with my ear to the keyboard. So nothing can shatter my good mood.)
Lizzy even though this site seems, at times, devoted to over-analysis it is better here than in session.
Most of the sessions I have played in don't become analytical.
Good point though.
In the real world, there's nothing about Irish music that I can say I hate, but I'm not fond of a piano at sessions.
I accept that they would have been central to a lot of parlour sessions in slightly well-off farmohouses in the old days, but they don't do it for me. In fact, for the most part, they annoy me - and it doesn't help that usually they're electr(on)ic.
Yeah, agree with steve - cliquey sessions get up my hole.
Nor do I like when some would be virtuoso comes along to our local session and sits, without playing a note, superciliously in judgement of we lesser mortals scrabbling along, then ~!Ahem!~ - deems to play a selection of choice pieces for our delectation. They can join in like normal players or fack off. And yet, we have had, in the past, *proper* big players come along and join in, like normal, without all that bollox.
My pet-peeve is when people say, "I like [insert maligned instrument here] if played well."
If you like [maligned instrument], then just say, "I like [maligned instrument]."
There is no need to add the, "...if played well, " qualifier because it should be easily assumed that one would *not* like [maligned instrument], or any instrument for that matter, played badly.
If you like it, just say that you like it. That should be enough.
Ego and the incestuous nature Traditional Irish Music seems to bring out in some players...
Somebody once told me they were ignored in a session, until their name was heard and they were considered a good musician, then everyone was best mates...I hate that sh*t.
It's ever prevelant, and usually younger kids develop and loose this, but there are of coursre old wans going around with the same attitude....
For Example, that fella,
Finbarr Mac gibbleybits
(oh his father was a wonderful singer)
I DON'T LIKE:
- A CERTAIN GUITAR PLAYER AT MY LOCAL SESSION WHO GETS REALLY DRUNK AND OUT OF TIME..
-HE ALSO HAS A STARING PROBLEM
-BORING SONGS
-WHEN I CAN'T GET A COOL TUNE RIGHT
-THE FACT THAT I AM CRAP ON MY ACCORDION
-THE FACT THAT I GET VERY LIGHT HEADED WHEN PLAYING THE FLUTE
ALSO WHEN MY KEYBOARD IS ON CAPS LOCK AND I DON'T REALISE IT... oh wait thats nowt to do with ITM...
I don't like it when a poor bodhran player turns up a bit late (as happened last week) and can't find a seat because they're taken up by dogs. What will tonight bring? Can't wait...
RichardB, I always carry cooked bacon in order to secure a seat in the circumstances you described, with enough in reserve to secure a second seat in case Tonya turns up.
Oldstrings and RichardB have raised this...
One of the great session attending dilemmas is:
(i) Do you turn up before the music starts, guaranteeing that you get a seat in your favourite place but in doing so apperaing a bit too enthuiastic, lame and amateur or do you
(ii) Breeze in much later on when the playing's in full swing, buy a pint, go outside for a fag, chat to all and sundry and finally, cooly stoll over to the musicians but miss getting a half decent seat at all thus blowing any Brownie points for overall coolness?
I don't like thread hijacks.
By the way chuneboi, you mentioned above that The Providence Reel is one of your favorites. It is in D, but I have always accompanied it by starting it with an A chord. But I ran into someone who wants me to use an Em chord at the beginning, which I don't care for nearly as much as the A chord. What do you use?
Browndawg, old chap, get off of your high horse for a minute. I selected piano, guitar and bouzouki for "if well played" qualification for very good reason. These are much-maligned instruments and I was making the point that I think they can be really good in ITM if well played because I was defending them, not making special rules for them. Try to get into the spirit of things, old chap. "Frowning emoticon with the one raised eyebrow" to you.
I play single dropped D so I on the first Bar I play D A E on the bottom 3strings for the the first two beats and I peddle a high D for the rest of the 1st four bars and then change to a
EBE 1/2 barre on the fist two beats of the fifth bar to build it up heavier again then peddle the low D. Your suggestion of the A sounds promising I'll try that on the repeat of the A part.
Ahh, Mr. Steve Shaw, F.E.W.T.O.R.E. received. Unfortunately I can't think of a clever emoticon to send back to you, so I'll have to settle for this one:
No high horse at all, good sir. Well within the spirit of things, my point is that there have been literally hundreds of posts here over the years where someone says, "I like [maligned-instrument], if played well."
I feel that such defensiveness should not be necessary. If you like [maligned-instrument], then it there should be no need to add the "if played well". It would be refreshing too see someone just state, "I like ....." Allow me to demonstrate:
I like bodhran, piano, guitar, and bouzouki in Irish Traditional Music.
There, that was easy. The fact that there is often recrimination from the "Oh-Yea?-Well-What-About-Yon-Basher-Thrasher-Squawker-Squeaker-Over-There," naysayer sect does not make me feel a need to add the "if played well" qualifier, because I would hope that said-naysayer would have the good sense to know that I wasn't referring to said basher-thrasher-squeaker-squawker.
Unless I'm misunderstanding your point, I think we are in 100% agreement on the maligned-instruments. I was not commenting on the instrument, but rather the defensiveness that accompanies many people's postings about their liking of said instrument.
After all, frisbee did indeed say, "So the main purpose of this thread is to just express your dislike of something without fear of recrimination."
No high horse, good sir. Perhaps just a misunderstanding of my original post. I hope this clears the air. Now *here's* the emoticon that I'll send to you:
Message understood, old chap. It just sounded as though you were side-swiping at me as I was the most recent person to come out with the thing you were railing against. I would just add that it's sometimes very difficult to say something without qualification. For example, whilst it would not be entirely inaccurate, it would be highly ~misleading~ if I said I like the bodhran in ITM and left it at that. I do like the bodhran in ITM. I like Christy Moore's playing of it, I like Johnny McDonagh's playing of it. But you and I both know that the vast majority of those who purport to play it are outstandingly bad at it. So in order to communicate accurately what I think using this wonderful language of ours I can say such things as "I like the bodhran if it's well played." It may be too vague, and even too much of a cliché, I fully accept, but goodness me you don't really want me to be rattling on in depth every time it comes up incidentally about exactly how, when, where and by whom I like the bloody thing to be played. Like I just have now, again. Wake up at the back!
Thanks for the accomaniment info, chuneboi. No need to apologize for the complexity, you gave me some good ideas that I can work into my approach to the tune!
And now, back to our regularly scheduled program, which offers more proof that ITM players can produce more "whines" than the Napa Valley.....
Ethnocentrism and anything related to that (racism) that sometimes raises its ugly head when someone of non-Irish background happens to be able to hold his/her own in a session...
Don't knock us because we practice more often and harder a lot of the time. We are here to stay - get used to it!
1) Bad & novice players who want to play in public
2) Excessive ornamentation at the expense of rhythm
3) Self-styled Gurus who are not actually very good
4) The Danny Boy, Irish Eyes Are Smiling & Toora Loora Brigade
5) That aspect of American education which has bred a generation which believes that self-esteem, however unjustified, is more important than ability or excellence.
6) Counter-culture beardy-weirdies
I used to play professionally. In the event, I chose a different career. I got out of practice at various times. I did not inflict myself on listeners by playing in public while out of practice. What would I get out of it ? What would they ? Embarrassment, and cringing, respectively, I think. I get as much of a buzz out of listening to good music as I do out of playing. If I get invited to play - fine. If I don't - fine too. Doesn't bother me in the slightest.
Allow me to comment on some maligned instruments :
Bodhran - Too often used by people with little or no understanding of the music but who want to be in on the act. Good bodhran-playing, sadly rare, is a very subtle art. Listen to Johnny Ringo McDonagh & how he follows & anticipates rhythmic subtlety & ornamentation if you want to see what I mean. Whacking the bodhran in time to the music is not bodhran playing.
Piano - Not really suited to accompaniment of ITM - it is VERY difficult, on a piano, to get the subtlety of rhythm that is intrinsic to good playing of dance music. I know some piano players though, who can play slow airs to make the angels quiet & flock to listen. That said, though - I have on occasion jammed with jazzmen who did a mean job on accompaniment. Extraordinary, but I will admit that we were straying considerably outside of the tradition.
Piano accordeon - Much as with piano.
Banjo - Needs a very fluid style. Personal preference, perhaps, but banjo played in the manner of the Sligo-Roscommon fiddle style is to my ear delightful.
Kids - Novices & people from other musical traditions - Listen, listen, and listen. Get one or other of Chronotron or Guitar & Drum Trainer & install on a PC. Either will allow you to slow tempo of music without changing key, or change key without changing tempo. Slow the playing of good players down. Listen to them play. Listen to where they ornament. Listen to the rhythm. Both individually may surprise you. So may the combination. Play along with them. Practice, practice, practice. Don't be in too much of a hurry to play in public. It is much better to be appreciated than patronised.
"1) Bad & novice players who want to play in public"
I'm sorry but I can't agree with this at all. Aren't sessions meant to be not jsut about playing together, but learning? People have to start somewhere, and you would think a session would be the best place to learn, from more experienced musicians. This kind of attitude is not needed in the folk world.
You state that "you would think a session would be the best place to learn, from more experienced musicians". This is indeed true. ITM sessions are about learning, for sure. Through listening. Learning through playing is the province of tutorials, workshops, & private practice. In these days of PCs, and the software I mention above, the current learning generation is uniquely privileged. You can session along, at home, to your heart's content with Frankie Gavin, John Carty, Angelina Carberry, Martin Quinn, Seamus Creagh, Tommy Peoples, Matt Molloy, Noel Hill .....Giants, seeped in the tradition. You want to accompany ? Listen to Andy Irvine and Alec Finn. You can slow them down. You can learn subtlety. You can listen. You can do this, and become very good, without annoying anyone. You can do this IF you are dedicated enough. But, PLEASE, do not confuse learning with the session tradition. Learning is a tremendous pleasure, in its own right. So is session playing, in its own right. I teach ITM. It gives me enormous pleasure when kids get to a standard suited to public playing.
The number of times I have been at sessions - as a listener where I have been uplifted by divine subtlety - only to be brought back to earth with a thud by Mr Beardo Beer Gut to my left, drowning out good music with a clunk clunk 3-chord trick on his guitar, or Miss Tin Whistle on my right, screeching in the upper register, out of time. Worst of all is Joe Bodhran - boom, boom, boom - In time, OK, but murderously flat and un-nuanced. Then there's Peggy on the piano, crucifying a glorious modal tune by strait-jacketing it in to A minor.
Lord - What do people want ? Public lessons ? Let me tell one war story. I was once asked to play in a pub in Kerry. Under some pressure, I did so, because I cannot actually play Kerry music. I played one set - not Kerry. The tourists loved it. But I shut up then. Not my session, not my music - extremely generous of the musicians to ask me to play, at all. The single nod that I got from the son of the house - a man seeped in the tradition - meant something. The clapping of the tourists did not. Sadly, sadly, the tradition in the Kerry town in question is now out of the pubs, which have become "Inclusive" and full of bad dilettantes; the sort of people who would yell "Elitist" or "Ethnocentric" at people who want to listen to real music. The real music is now exclusively played at home, in private, & unless you are very well in, which sadly I am not, inaccessible.
Oh - I know - the tourists and "Folk" musicians lap the current pub scene up, and the pub owners make a lot of money, which brings wealth to the region, & it is not for visitors like me to decry the development of the tourist trade - But Lord, how I miss the good Kerry music of the 70s.
Blimey!
This is one of the most snobby/ snooty postings I've ever seen on this board!
And that's saying something, innit?!
Chill out and join in!
The past is gone! There's no looking back!
but I'm sure some of your "specialist" knowledge could be quite useful, appropriately applied, as music evolves around us.
I rather doubt it, but I appear to be causing offence, which is not my wish at alI. With sincere apologies for any offence I may have caused, I shall bow out. Bainigi taitneamh as an gceol.
Please don't go anywhere Sean. Sentiments like yours and Llig's are vital. They are a counter-weight to what you are complaining of. Without your force on that side of things, the weight from the other side would pull it too far.
I love to embrace newbies and try to spread the knowledge, brake for beginners, and all that. It's how I was once hooked myself.
Now, however, I see and actually pine what you're talking about.
When you have dedicated yourself to it, fallen in love with it, and reached a certain skill level with the music, you want it to be the best it can be, each and every time. You want it to be better and better and better, every time you play it, and it's downright maddening when people don't burn with the same intensity.
One of the more poignant pieces of writing that I've read in a long time.
Please don't be upset by the ignorant reply that you got from your man, yhaalhouse. To explain why, let me paint a wee picture for you. This is a fellow who has recently begun to turn up at sessions around London, armed with - of all things - a big ukulele which he strums along badly much to the annoyance (or barely concealed amusement, depending on their mood) of the musicians in attendance. He's already been advised by one of the sessions which he tormented to sling his hook and if he persists in making the sort of asinine comment which he made in reply to your sentiments, it can't be long before he is shown the door at a few others.
However, I note that said buck frequents The Kilkenny Tavern where my good pal, the estimable Alan O'Leary runs a sparkling session on Tuesday nights. Therefore, with Alan's permission (which I assume will be forthcoming), I'd like to ask yhaalhouse to put his money where his mouth is.
I'm due to be in London on Tuesday 13th November and I'll put the following challenge, which will give the world the opportunity to hear just why he is so uniquely qualified to pontificate as he does on Irish Traditional Music.
A friend of mine has said that he has recording gear which will make a high-quality recording, even in a busy session. So I'd like to offer yhaalhouse the opportunity to play a few sets of tunes which my friend will record and make available via the internet for all to hear. If yhaalhouse plays these well, then I'm sure that we'll all give him the benefit of thr doubt when he makes comments such as he made in reply to Sean's writing. If, on the other hand, he has as little music in him as I suspect, then we'll treat his comments with the weight which they deserve.
I'm not suggesting anything fancy or difficult. Just a set of reels and a set of jigs. Easy reels - The Dairymaid and The Merry Blacksmith. Easy jigs - The Eavesdropper and The Blarney Pilgrim. Everybody knows them. And I'll not ask anyone to do something that I wouldn't do myself. I'll give both sets a rattle, no bother, and stick my recordings up on the internet at the same time.
So what do you say, yhaalhouse? The ball's in your court.
And Sean - you sound like a gas man and I'd welcome the chance for a few tunes with you. Beannacht.
Thank you for the generous sentiments. Micky – go mba fada buan tu – I loved your post. In actual fact, “Micky Finn” was my first choice of handle for this forum; you of course already had it. Thank you for the tip re the Kilkenny Tavern; I shall make a point of attending next time I am in London on a Tuesday. I live a peripatetic life - greetings from East Asia.
If I may, I would not wish yhaalhouse to be subjected to any public trial on my account – I have a much thicker skin than would allow of any upset on foot of any tirade from him or anyone else. As the handle – Sean Lead Liath (“Old Grey Fellow” – no etymological connection, incidentally, with the forename “Seán”) indicates, I have been around rather a long time, & am long past the age at which I might think that the world would be a better place were everyone to think as I do; hence my aversion to causing offence.
I am always bemused by people asking about session etiquette, & when it is appropriate to play in new company. There is really only one answer – user yizzer <insert favourite expletive> God-given cop-on. If people actually want specific guidelines – Here goes - If all you can do is a 3-chord trick on a guitar, don’t drown out the ‘zouk player who has taken the trouble to develop tricky counterpoint. If you’re a newbie whistle player, don’t use the upper register unnecessarily. On whatever instrument - Are you in tune ? In time ? Playing the same version of the tunes as the regulars ? Handling the speed ? If you’re playing too many duff notes, take a rest. Bodhrans can be great, but please don’t drown the music. Hell’s Bell’s – ITM is like anything else in life – discretion, courtesy and understatement are universally attractive attributes in anyone.
With all that said, though, I have something of an issue with folk music bruisers who affect to see a continuum between folk & the Irish instrumental tradition. The only connection I can actually see is that the record companies file both under “Folk” (Abomination ! Abomination !).
I am not actually a purist, but, in the final analysis, ITM is about instrumental virtuosity. Backpackers playing Ralph McTell, or the first 7,654 stanzas of “American Pie” sometimes need a little sensitivity. Then there was the lovely American girl at one session, who asked could she play her whistle. But of course. She might have been the next Mary Bergin. Perhaps she was. It was kinda hard to tell, from her rendition of “Twinkle Twinkle Little Star”. But she had the grace to be sweet, and shy, and respectful, and she was clearly enjoying the session playing.
Sean, I share with many of the frustrations you express in this forum, and I've been persecuted for my own expression of them more than a few times. (Look up any of my rants on noodling for example.) But as much as I sympathize with the main thrust of what you're expressing, I have to take issue with one point that seems to be a bit superficial and unwarranted prejudice. Consider the following quotes:
"Counter-culture beardy-weirdies"
"Mr Beardo Beer Gut"
Now, mind you I’m not the best concertina and flute player, but I have put considerable time and effort into playing Irish music over the past 20 years or so, and I’ve spent as much time, (and money,) as I can afford in Ireland with the hope to understand this music I have become enamored with and contribute to sessions I participate in with respect and some ability. I also have a rather large beard and I might be considered by many to be “counter-culture;” at least politically since I am a serious dissenter from the current criminal administration that has ceased power in my country of origin.
So here’s my question: could your prejudice against extraordinary and unconventional facial hair be a result of bad association; or does it truly indicate sub-standard and disrespectful musicianship?
Here's the lastest photo of your's truly that I have so you can see if this qualifies me or not.
"at least politically since I am a serious dissenter from the current criminal administration that has ceased power in my country of origin."
Normally I refrain from being the spell-check maven, but in this instance I feel it's necessary to convey the right concept---that should say "seized power", and not "ceased power" (although we can always hope)
You have my profound respect, Sir. The fair Mrs. Sean Lead Liath constrained my goodself to take a razor to my own luxuriant facial locks some years ago.
I was actullay abstracting the CAMRA brigade, or some elements thereof, or the lads who believe that a fat spliff makes 'em play better.
It is furthermore quite some time since I went out with a vigilante group of fáinne & pioneer pin sporting heavies in shiny-assed suits, armed with hurleys, to put manners on lads who don't play exactly like Seamus Ennis. You probably remember the quote - "Will they pillory us, if we come to power with a hurley in one hand and a chanter in the other ?" I'm in the political wing of the Purist Movement nowadays.
White flag now up in advance of any potential deluge of objections from CAMRA defenders & substance users.
Sean - Don't concern yourself with putting Yaarsehole on public trial your account. There is no trial. He is guilty on all accounts of manifesting himself at sessions in London and not having the faintest clue of what this music is about, then coming on this site and vindicating everyone's suspicions. He needs to be told, even if need be on a public forum, but unfortunately I think he is beyond learning and thus changing. And I know I speak for many.
I noted in your profile - "I don't like it when the po-faced PC brigade or the self-appointed experts and guardians of the tradition start spouting off, although I can be guilty of that too." I rather doubt that you are guilty of it. Asking for courtesy & for respect for other players, & listeners, & for the music, can be confused with the type of attitude you describe. I have come across enough of it in my time. The tendency can have unfortunate effects; there are those who aver that interest in the music, in order to be "Legitimate", must of needs be associated with particular political & social outlooks, to wit, those that characterise the traditionalist rural Irish conservative world-view. This is, I suppose, one interpretation of "Purism".
I state here - guardedly, in that the matter referenced is still emotive in Ireland - that I felt constrained to part company with Comhaltas Ceoltoiri Eireann in 1983 over a public stance taken by that organisation on a matter wholly unrelated to music. I considered that the public message imparted was that the music was the exclusive preserve of those possessed of one very specific outlook on matters national & social. Nope - I don't make accidental allusions. Enough.
Things about ITM you don't like.....
Things about ITM you don't like.....
What aspects of ITM do you not like and why?
This can be anything, a particular player/group, regional style, instrument, type of tune. Everythings open to be disliked here.
What's the point you may ask, why be so negative?
Well without wanting to sound like a shrink, it's obvious in many threads that people have their pet peeves about trad, I think it would be interesting for everyone just to be able to let it all out here in one thread without fear of upsetting some newbie or young kid or good natured person who posts a discussion about how they think the bodhrán is great or something like that.
It would be good (but it probably won't happen) if people are allowed to say these things without someone with an opposing view snapping back at them. So the main purpose of this thread is to just express your dislike of something without fear of recrimination.
# Posted on October 13th 2007 by In mourning
Re: Things about ITM you don't like.....
I'll start it off by saying that with a few exceptions I can't stand piano in ITM because the way they tend to be played destroys the music, the rhythm, the harmony, the sound, only the odd player can add something to the music by playing piano.
There that feels good, it's a bit like an AA meeting......not that I've ever been to one of them
# Posted on October 13th 2007 by In mourning
Re: Things about ITM you don't like.....
I hate in when people bloody grumble on negatively. For christ sake what's wrong with thinking about what you like about it.
So yeah, Why be so negative?
# Posted on October 13th 2007 by llig leahcim
Re: Things about ITM you don't like.....
I don't like the fact that I waited until my early 30's to start learning tunes and playing a melody instrument.
# Posted on October 13th 2007 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: Things about ITM you don't like.....
without fear of upsetting some newbie or young kid or good natured person who posts a discussion about how they think the bodhrán is great or something like that.
Posted on October 13th 2007 by frisbee
That's what I dislike, sweeping, unfounded generalisations. Why would it need to be a newcomer or a "Kid" or even good natured, whatever that has to do with anything, to profess a liking for bodhrans?
The hidden tone here implies that only mis-guided types could like bodhrans. Such an assumption is clearly harassment and bullying of bodhran players. There are equality laws applicable to this.
# Posted on October 13th 2007 by bodhran bliss
Re: Things about ITM you don't like.....
The only thing I dislike is that if you go to a session people seem warm and friendly. If you come to a web site like this one, you find out that all that friendly exterior is hiding seething rage against any faux paux you might have made, which means that if you spend any time here, you are going to be incredibly, neurotically scared to death the next time you go to a session.
Sheesh! I thought this was supposed to be fun!
# Posted on October 13th 2007 by sbhikes
Re: Things about ITM you don't like.....
bliss you completely misread what I meant by that, I like bodhrán (when played well) it was just an example of the kind of post that often gets swamped by negative comments!
# Posted on October 13th 2007 by In mourning
Re: Things about ITM you don't like.....
I don't like noisy bars where I can't hear myself, let alone the other players. But, then, I still have fun and no one can hear my mistakes!
I don't like people who insist on telling me how to play but say nothing to other players. I do believe one person is picking on me. I don't lead -- I just try to follow. It's an open session so my begining abilities shouldn't be a problem. I have played another session (twice now) and one of the players told me I should stay when I was leaving. And, it wasn't one of my better sessions.
# Posted on October 13th 2007 by grumblingoldwoman
Re: Things about ITM you don't like.....
I don´t like reducing the best music there is to an acronym, and to endlessly argue about it on the Internets.
# Posted on October 13th 2007 by Björn
Re: Things about ITM you don't like.....
A few certain people/players. I'm not naming any names.
# Posted on October 13th 2007 by seisflutes
Re: Things about ITM you don't like.....
I don't like the reality of it or the modernity of it all.
I wish the bodhran was a remnant of our primitive ancestors that would be played for an ancient tribal dance around an autumn bonfire. That, in days of yore long forgotten, the low d could have been heard for miles across the misty and mystic valleys as the sun rose or as the simple but happy people finished their work or contemplated the unknowable, played by some unseen shepherd lass or lad. That friends and families, who have played their part and now rest in the mossy, shady churchyard, would have gotten together during idle times around someone's hearth and share tunes, songs, steps, and stories of long ago, of kings, gods, saints and heroes. That the fairies, long banished from heavenly realms, delivered magical, divine or mischievous tunes to mortals worthy and otherwise.
Then I come here the mustard bubble burster. Thanks everyone. Sigh. I still suffer from the devastation of here finding out the low d was invented in the 1970's.
# Posted on October 13th 2007 by feardearg
Re: Things about ITM you don't like.....
Quote:
I'll start it off by saying that with a few exceptions I can't stand piano in ITM because the way they tend to be played destroys the music, the rhythm, the harmony, the sound, only the odd player can add something to the music by playing piano.
-------
Without offending anyone - I have to agree with that. Sometimes you'll get a really nice trad. cd or tape and when you put it on it has that annoying, thumping piano in the back of it. Seems to come up particularly on banjo cd's. I know it's controversial, but I'd much prefer backup guitar.
# Posted on October 13th 2007 by camwebby
Re: Things about ITM you don't like.....
About pianos, I like them if they don't become too dominant. If the backing up is intelligent it doesn't matter with which instrument it is played, even with pianos. With a piano you can spoil things pretty easily but so can you with guitars or with anything for that matter.
I agree with bodhran bliss, there are just too many generalisations.
I also like bodhrans when in the proper place with proper playing.
# Posted on October 13th 2007 by Risto
Re: Things about ITM you don't like.....
I forgot to say what I don't like. There are lots of bad tunes in ITM recorded with a monotonous feel, and bad fiddling, records that should never have been done. Even a good tune can't save a badly fiddled tune IMO. These are what make people not to like ITM, I've noticed this in our household. But then, this applies to all sorts of music. Record making has just become too easy these days.
# Posted on October 13th 2007 by Risto
Re: Things about ITM you don't like.....
One more for the piano (well, 90% of it). Piano accompanyment to Irish tunes is to be compared with a drumkit in ITM: it cuts the music in small pieces, making it 'square' instead of letting it flow.
Mind : I love piano. Give me Schubert, Bartók or Scarlatti any time. I play a lot of classical music piano recordings.
# Posted on October 13th 2007 by Henk Bos
Re: Things about ITM you don't like.....
At this moment, the drinking that goes along with sessions. Last night's fun may have been a bit bonkers. Oy.
# Posted on October 13th 2007 by TheSilverSpear
Re: Things about ITM you don't like.....
I like the piano in trad, in a way. It is the most traditional backing instrument i know of. .All solo players should do their first album with piano backing. To be authentic.
The drink would be my main dislike,that and the p1ss heads. Oh and people who play the fiddle for2 weeks and join in the session.
and people who think they know it all but actually know very little. And people who hijack a set with their favourite, unknown, tune, reducing a kicking set to a dying cat! And people with no respect for differing viewpoints,and ...and ....and......
# Posted on October 13th 2007 by jig
Re: Things about ITM you don't like.....
I hate the fact that there are too many good tunes and not enough time to learn them all!
# Posted on October 13th 2007 by Tarrantella
Re: Things about ITM you don't like.....
The thing I don't like about ITM is that there are too many people playing it who don't like been backed by pianos, drummers or bodhran players (good ones of course), PAs and accordion basses in general. Strangely most of the things I've mentioned were putting the rhythm in Irish Trad Music long before the guitar family was heard of.
# Posted on October 13th 2007 by Free Reed
Re: Things about ITM you don't like.....
Disclaimer: There are too many things I like about ITM, and the people who play it, for any dislikes to even compare!
There...that being said there are a few pet peeves...
Control. I don't like it when anyone tries to be controlling of another's playing or preferred instrument.
Exclusivity. I see the motivation that better players have for wanting to do their own thing and excluding others, often in not so subtle ways. I know it happens, I just don't like it.
Popularity. Hey, I put a lot of time and effort into practicing and polishing my playing (not that it always shows !!!). Why, dammit, can't this type of music be more appealing to the masses!!!
# Posted on October 13th 2007 by MagRoibin
Re: Things about ITM you don't like.....
My first exposure to Irish music all had piano's and the rat-tat-tat, and clickity-clack of drum kits with old ceili band records. I love it, and recognize it as being from that era. It was dance music. Obviously the music and how people arrange it has evolved quite a bit since 1940, and most people, especially those who play it, prefer it more streamlined. Rarely do I hear those instruments being applied to what most consider "ITM" nowadays. Unless somebody like Lunasa decides to add piano and a snare to their next recording, those instruments will always be associated with a by-gone era.
# Posted on October 13th 2007 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: Things about ITM you don't like.....
I do not like or enjoy excess in anything involving the music.
I do not like too many flutes or fiddles or guitars or even too many bodhrans. (I enjoy being able to appreciate each one's individual qualities, that's all.)
I do not like rhythm vs. rhythm, as in guitar against drum, piano vs. other backers, etc. Have one or the other, but not both.
I also do not like a session being too serious or too chaotic.
I do, however, wish for a world, musically speaking, where there is room for all of us, particularly here at this site. I will admit that I naively believe that something almost spriitual can occur when this music is being played. The cynics here who shoot down others views are a sad nasty lot indeed when they get going ( naturally they are entitled to their opinion too) and when I read feardarg's entry, I felt disappointed that you cannot discuss that aspect of music here without likely getting insulted by the soulless contingent.
Kind of a shame, really. But hey, my people, past and present, are still with me. Beat that.
# Posted on October 13th 2007 by Rook
Re: Things about ITM you don't like.....
I don't like people playing too fast - partly because it's hard work to play along, but mainly because I feel that they somehow *just don't get it*. What's the rush? Don't they realise what they are missing by not taking the time to savour each note, feeling the pulse etc
There are some great traditional players who play fast. I'm not knocking them. What I'm referring to is mainly (although not exclusively) a disease of those who have come to Irish music from another background, somewhere along the line having picked up the formula "Irish Traditional Music is fast, ergo faster = more Irish".
# Posted on October 13th 2007 by ragaman
Re: Things about ITM you don't like.....
nothing nicer to me that a sprightly banjo with strict time piano backing
# Posted on October 13th 2007 by Bren
Re: Things about ITM you don't like.....
flute on my right
accordion on my left
other than that, it's all good
# Posted on October 13th 2007 by Sunnybear
Re: Things about ITM you don't like.....
Peeve #1 is the multitude of players that try to play Irish without listening to enough of it. Often these are the players that play other forms of trad music, be it Scottish, bluegrass, old time, Breton, or whatever. They may be technically talented, but they *don't sound Irish*, which makes for a bit of a muddy push and pull situation that just grates on my nerves.
Peeve #2, to contrast NCRC, is playing the music too slowly. I can enjoy a good slow set, played with lots of feel, as much as the next guy. But jigs often sound like dirge marches, and reels don't bounce enough if they're not played fast enough. It's really all about the rhythm, not the speed, of course, but the combination of speed and rhythm can be magical!
Pete
# Posted on October 13th 2007 by Reverend
Re: Things about ITM you don't like.....
Reverend,
I strongly agree with peeve #1. Too many musicians from other backgrounds trying to play ITM - but it runs deeper than pure technique. It goes against the grain to say these people should not play - they have as much right as anyone - but when the soul isn't there the music just sounds flat. That's why I don't play flamenco though I love it. It is normally easy to spot the 'non-Irish' players but I had all that blown when I heard Kasir. I know the Bodhran player’s father is Irish but the rest are Danes – unbelievable !!!
# Posted on October 13th 2007 by SeanMc
Re: Things about ITM you don't like.....
I don't have a sore spot in "traditional" music, but I really hate when someone's playing Inisheer, Danny Boy, or other Irish tenors stuff, and then claim to be playing ITM, or when said people show up to a session and expect us to be playing said songs.
# Posted on October 13th 2007 by Red Crow
Re: Things about ITM you don't like.....
...but what I really hate is, the more tunes I learn the longer my nasal hair gets...................or maybe that's just age.
# Posted on October 13th 2007 by SeanMc
Re: Things about ITM you don't like.....
Rev and SeanMc, wouldn't you say that "peeve #1" constitutes about 80 percent or more of the "gripe" threads on this forum? I think you may have just hooked the biggest fish in the pond.
# Posted on October 13th 2007 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: Things about ITM you don't like.....
I won't use the "C" word. The other night we were talking about the rules people apply to Irish music. All the while insisting it is simple diddly music without rules. Then we were contrasting Irish sessions with some of the Canadian & Scottish sessions we had attended which were not as stuffy as some of the Irish sessions. I don't like to generalize ~ but you asked.
# Posted on October 13th 2007 by Tonya
Re: Things about ITM you don't like.....
Good grief! I'll be scared away from sessions until I'm old and gray if I keep listening to you guys!
Is it really the sound of the individual instruments you dislike (i.e. bodhran!!!!) or is it poor playing perhaps? Or is it because the bodhran has only been used in trad as of relatively recently? Why so much bodhran hate?
If it works for Kevin Conneff and Christy Moore it most certainly works for me.
# Posted on October 13th 2007 by James Barry
Re: Things about ITM you don't like.....
James Barry; I just looked over the thread & saw many kind references to bodhran. One person mentioned they do not like "too many" bodhrans in a session.
# Posted on October 13th 2007 by Tonya
Re: Things about ITM you don't like.....
Well, sure. Too much of anything is silly. My apologies. I flew off the handle.
# Posted on October 13th 2007 by James Barry
Re: Things about ITM you don't like.....
No problem. From time to time mustard people can be downright mean, arrogant, cranky . . . yet ~
there are many wonderful people here.
Are you sure this isn't a windup frisbee?
I didn't grow up playing Irish music but some pianists make lovely music regardless of the genre.
# Posted on October 13th 2007 by Tonya
Re: Things about ITM you don't like.....
Reminds me of the old joke where a guy captures a near-deaf leprechaun and ends up with a crock of mold, a big mouse in the country, and a twelve inch pianist....(ahem)
James Barry, a bit of slagging is only natural on a forum like this. Most of the time, it's a just good natured poke in the ribs.
# Posted on October 13th 2007 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: Things about ITM you don't like.....
I'll take that twelve incher. But if it's a poke in the ribs I'd say you leprechaun might need glasses as well.
# Posted on October 13th 2007 by Tonya
Re: Things about ITM you don't like.....
now it might turn into a windup if you keep coming out with phrases like "I'll take that twelve incher" Tonya!
# Posted on October 13th 2007 by In mourning
Re: Things about ITM you don't like.....
but this is no wind-up regarding pianos, I like piano in jazz, classical, pop or whatever but most of the time in trad it just annoys me, as I said there are some notable exceptions.
# Posted on October 13th 2007 by In mourning
Re: Things about ITM you don't like.....
Good for you frisbee.
BTW that was not a windup but a hijack.
Unless I get a pianist everyday it just drives me crazy that mustard members cannot . . . woops almost did it again.
Windup: a post intended to stimulate controversy.
Hijack: response(s) in a thread which are deliberately off-topic
Orderly discussion: notable exceptions
Pianist: done that been there
# Posted on October 13th 2007 by Tonya
Re: Things about ITM you don't like.....
Tommy McDonnell singing 'Reconciliation'
"What aspects of ITM do you not like and why?"
I really like this song when anyone else sings.
"This can be anything, a particular player. . ."
In my opinion Eileen Ivers is part of Irish Traditional Music.
Others might disagree but I believe tradition is how players develop the music while keeping 'some' connection with the past.
# Posted on October 13th 2007 by Random_notes
Re: Things about ITM you don't like.....
Endless bad regurgitation of misheard tunes of of the Cheiftains series of CDs.
Foreigners ( to Ireland that is) whom correct me for playing different versions to those on the Chieftain CDs which the Oirish musakian wrongly assumes are the best of right version.
Oirish Musakians, domestic or otherwise.
# Posted on October 13th 2007 by Schlongbow
Re: Things about ITM you don't like.....
Tunes that sound great played by somebody, but make no sense when I try and play them.
# Posted on October 13th 2007 by ragaman
Re: Things about ITM you don't like.....
"Tunes that sound great played by somebody" ... else (ed.)
# Posted on October 13th 2007 by ragaman
Re: Things about ITM you don't like.....
''The thing I don't like about ITM is that there are too many people playing it who don't like been backed by pianos, drummers or bodhran players (good ones of course), PAs and accordion basses in general. Strangely most of the things I've mentioned were putting the rhythm in Irish Trad Music long before the guitar family was heard of.''
well said Free Reed, and oddly enough the thing about ITM I really don't like is when you get a guitarist with no sense of rhythm who just strums along chords aimlessly out of time with what you're doing...
(Before all the guitarists here get up in arms I'd hasten to add that I have also played with some very good guitarists, just there do seem to be some that havn't got a clue )
# Posted on October 13th 2007 by cathycook
Re: Things about ITM you don't like.....
Swing-tuned Paulo Soprani boxes are my pet dislike, and badly thought-out accordion bass playing, coin on the bottle merchants, backers who can't recognise a key, backers who play repetitive pre-learned patterns to impress themselves, and people whose minds are welded shut.
# Posted on October 13th 2007 by Backer
Re: Things about ITM you don't like.....
On the not being Irish but playing ITM - should that reduce me to only the music for my ethnic background?
No -- a true musician should be able to play the music before them. However, it should be chosen because of enjoyment. And, there is a lot of things in Irish music which are a lot like the music for my ethnic background. There are differences and I'm certainly playing ITM with those differences in mind.
# Posted on October 13th 2007 by grumblingoldwoman
Re: Things about ITM you don't like.....
I love it when someone recognises that "ITM" is an abbreviation, not an acronym.
I love it when I see dozens of bodhrans hanging up in a shop. Hanging up in a shop. Hangi.....
I love piano accompaniment if well played.
I love guitar accompaniment if well played.
I love bouzoukis if well played.
I love the impossibility that a piano accordion or a recorder can be well played in ITM.
I love it when people recognise that sessions are the Johnny-come-latelies of ITM and that such people are therefore humble enough to accept that what applies to sessions applies to sessions and not to ITM in general.
I love nearly all those tunes that ITM snobs say they hate simply because they are asked for a lot or played a lot: those tunes are popular because they are good tunes. Harvest Home, Concertina Reel, Kesh Jig...you know the ones. And those lovely song tunes too, like Danny Boy, with which there is absolutely nothing wrong.
I just hate Drowsy Bloody Maggie and Johnny Bloody Cope.
# Posted on October 13th 2007 by Steve Shaw
Re: Things about ITM you don't like.....
What kind of thread is this anyway?
Everyone is like saying what they think.
I had a great post all typed out & it was just too funny, at least to me.
I just couldn't bring myself to post it. So I deleted the whole thing.
Good job frisbee you've sucked all the fun out of our sacred mustard stained board. The thing I don't like about ITM is ~ it's all happy-huggy these days. Give me good old fashioned Irish guilt & misery any day. Here's to you. "The pipes, the pipes are calling . . ."
# Posted on October 13th 2007 by Tonya
Re: Things about ITM you don't like.....
Heheh, Tonya. I would have thought that this would be the ideal place to seek refuge for anyone who thinks that ITM is getting too happy-huggy!
# Posted on October 14th 2007 by Steve Shaw
Re: Things about ITM you don't like.....
Steve asking the Irish (especially Irish musicians) to complain is like asking a 4-year old, "Who wants more candy?"
They just eat it up & ask for more.
# Posted on October 14th 2007 by Tonya
Re: Things about ITM you don't like.....
True, true. It's Saturday night/Sunday morning, I question my own sanity and pour myself another glass of Trapiche cabernet sauvignon...
# Posted on October 14th 2007 by Steve Shaw
Re: Things about ITM you don't like.....
...and the piper will bring us to reason.
# Posted on October 14th 2007 by Ray Mariani
Re: Things about ITM you don't like.....
Whether you love it or hate it ~
Danny Boy still makes everbody cry.
# Posted on October 14th 2007 by Tonya
Re: Things about ITM you don't like.....
In Irish music don't like a lot of those flat non harmonically moving tunes like Foxhunters or Gravel Walks. Even Humours of Tulla falls into that category and can sometimes sound like that to me, although I don't mind playing along with that one.
On the other hand I love the pretty ones like Over the Moor to Maggie or The Providence Reel.
# Posted on October 14th 2007 by chuneboi slim
Re: Things about ITM you don't like.....
Is that the Oak Cask or the regular? That's been one of my favorite under $10 cabs for about 15 years (back when I could get the Oak Cask for $6 and the regular for $4). The only disappointing bottle I've ever had, though, was in the UK in '96.
I pronounce it tra-PEACH-eh? with the 'r' pronounced as if by a Scotsman, the 'eh?' like a Canadian, and the second syllable by someone who likes peaches 18% more than the average ITM basoonist.
# Posted on October 14th 2007 by GaryAMartin
Re: Things about ITM you don't like.....
I've been wondering about piano in ITM...never sounds quite right to me. Maybe it's the equal tempered, non-folky sound and all that, i.e. not just tempered and not edgy; like using a silver flute...just not quite right.
# Posted on October 14th 2007 by InSearchofCraic
Re: Things about ITM you don't like.....
What I hate is when some old guy, stinking of beer, walks in half-way through the session, and someone shouts out, "Oh! You must hear this guy play, he's the most amazing fiddler I've ever met."
"Oh, but I haven't got me fiddle", says he.
All eyes turn towards me. Being the only fiddler in the session maybe isn't such a great thing.
"Joe! I'm sure you won't mind lending him your fiddle, will you?"
"Of course not!"
"Oh, maybe I will in a bit, then. For one or two tunes," he says, and goes off. About ten drinks later he returns, waits till the end of a set, takes the fiddle out of my hands and starts playing.
If he'd been as good as he had been made out to be, or even just good, I'd have sit back and enjoyed, and been proud to have lent him my fiddle. But the sounds that came out of my instrument at that point were some of the most horrible, screetchiest sounds I've ever heard come out of it. He played tune after tune in this way, probably a set of about six, all the while crouched over the fiddle as if the rest of the session didn't exist, or they were just his backing band. And that wasn't all. At about the second or third time round each tune, he went of into some improvisatory bit, still in the same screetchy manner, as if it were time for his solo. And after the set, he held on to my fiddle, and started breathing his smoky alcoholic breath into my face, lecturing me about himself, and the shortcomings of my fiddle, and how I should be "freer" when I play. He asked me why I sit out on all the songs. "Because I don't sing, and I don't know any of them", I replied.
"Oh, but that doesn't matter, you can just jam along to them. Why don't you?"
I didn't have any answer to that.
So along came a song, and he jammed his way through the whole thing, and, of course, it didn't sound that good.
The rest of the night carried on in that vein, and I left somewhat disgruntled.
Yeah. Don't like that.
# Posted on October 14th 2007 by Joe CSS
Re: Things about ITM you don't like.....
You showed great willpower and composure young Joe and there was no harm done then, but what would have happened
if he had have dropped, stood on or sat on your fiddle, the alcholic moron would have looked up at you with a helpless look just before you committed an unspeakable act of violence
with a chair or something similar.
Say no too these fools, and to your session mates as well who put you on the spot about lending the goose your fiddle.
There's power in refusal. Enjoy everyone else's discomfort when you say no. Dr Slim.
# Posted on October 14th 2007 by chuneboi slim
Re: Things about ITM you don't like.....
i hate it when people ruin good tunes! i found myself hating the maid behind the bar because someone had played it badly.
in contrast, i love finding old recordings with the very tunes that everybody shuns now played gorgeously, like the rakes of mallow or irish washerwoman.
# Posted on October 14th 2007 by daiv
Re: Things about ITM you don't like.....
Purists (In the musical sense) .They really annoy me!
# Posted on October 14th 2007 by Daniel Gott
Re: Things about ITM you don't like.....
people who play too loud and sessions without a bodhran they give music depth
# Posted on October 14th 2007 by tank
Re: Things about ITM you don't like.....
I'd be surprised if any newcomer still wants to go to an "ITM" session after reading this lot
# Posted on October 14th 2007 by Bren
Re: Things about ITM you don't like.....
Whether you love it or hate it ~
Danny Boy still makes everbody cry.
# Posted on October 14th 2007 by Tonya
I couldn't agree more, this version of Danny Boy makes me cry every time I see it
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OCbuRA_D3KU
# Posted on October 14th 2007 by In mourning
Re: Things about ITM you don't like.....
I hate it when a cool tune is played at a session and everyone else knows it but me, so I should learn it, but things go too fast afterwards and I can't find out the name of the tune.
# Posted on October 14th 2007 by daveb
Re: Things about ITM you don't like.....
Yes, I'm with Tonya for the guilt and misery thing. This music isn't meant to be cheerful. The one thing I don't like is people whooping it up like they're having just the grandest time. And applause - that should be banned. People don't play this music expecting to be liked, you know, or they wouldn't get very far if they did.
# Posted on October 14th 2007 by RichardB
Re: Things about ITM you don't like.....
daveb
you could take a recorder & catch those tunes you like.
# Posted on October 14th 2007 by Tonya
Re: Things about ITM you don't like.....
I like Irish Music...
# Posted on October 14th 2007 by piper jj
Re: Things about ITM you don't like.....
frisbee I did not follow through on your link.
Just out of curiosity why do you save a YouTube link to Danny Boy?
. . . "every time I see it" . . .
# Posted on October 14th 2007 by Tonya
Re: Things about ITM you don't like.....
Trapiche is a word I pronounce differently according to how much Trapiche I've supped.
I didn't know that there was an oak cask version. This stuff sells for £5.99 usually but I bought a cartload of it when Morrisons were selling it for two quid off. That's how I live. There is something I don't like about today's ITM (sensu lato). It's flashy young buggers of the Lunasa/Flook ilk who have all the technique but none of the soul, but they obviously "want to take ITM to a new level" (as if it needs it). They'll be OK in about 25 years I suppose. Don't fight me on that point please. It's only my opinion.
# Posted on October 14th 2007 by Steve Shaw
Re: Things about ITM you don't like.....
That's fine. We won't fight over opinions.
I am however of the opinion that Cillian Vallely (Lunasa)
is an excellent musician.
Cheers!
# Posted on October 14th 2007 by Random_notes
Re: Things about ITM you don't like.....
Tonya if you did follow the link you'd understand why it makes me cry every time I see it....go on don't be afraid click on the link!
# Posted on October 14th 2007 by In mourning
Re: Things about ITM you don't like.....
Cliques.
Cheers,
Armand
# Posted on October 14th 2007 by fiddlinviolinin
Re: Things about ITM you don't like.....
over-analysis
# Posted on October 14th 2007 by Lizzy
Re: Things about ITM you don't like.....
People who disregard song and dance. It's easy to forget that tunes are only one third of the tradition. In many languages "music" and "dance" are the same word. And I like that, and think that it maybe should be honoured in ITM (I expect a torrent of disagreement but am happy in the knowledge that I have just managed to hook my earring to my bracelet and am typing this with my ear to the keyboard. So nothing can shatter my good mood.)
Also, leery old men.
And leery young men.
# Posted on October 14th 2007 by mehitabel23
Re: Things about ITM you don't like.....
Lizzy even though this site seems, at times, devoted to over-analysis it is better here than in session.
Most of the sessions I have played in don't become analytical.
Good point though.
# Posted on October 14th 2007 by Tonya
Re: Things about ITM you don't like.....
Things about ITM you don't like
The "term" ITM.
It's a fvcken crap term.
# Posted on October 14th 2007 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: Things about ITM you don't like.....
Yeah, cliques. Glee clubs.
# Posted on October 14th 2007 by Steve Shaw
Re: Things about ITM you don't like.....
mehitabel123-i agree! i've been working on my dancing and my singing, and i find my music to be much more fulfilling.
# Posted on October 15th 2007 by daiv
Re: Things about ITM you don't like.....
In the real world, there's nothing about Irish music that I can say I hate, but I'm not fond of a piano at sessions.
I accept that they would have been central to a lot of parlour sessions in slightly well-off farmohouses in the old days, but they don't do it for me. In fact, for the most part, they annoy me - and it doesn't help that usually they're electr(on)ic.
# Posted on October 15th 2007 by RockyRoader
Re: Things about ITM you don't like.....
Yeah, agree with steve - cliquey sessions get up my hole.
Nor do I like when some would be virtuoso comes along to our local session and sits, without playing a note, superciliously in judgement of we lesser mortals scrabbling along, then ~!Ahem!~ - deems to play a selection of choice pieces for our delectation. They can join in like normal players or fack off. And yet, we have had, in the past, *proper* big players come along and join in, like normal, without all that bollox.
# Posted on October 15th 2007 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: Things about ITM you don't like.....
My pet-peeve is when people say, "I like [insert maligned instrument here] if played well."
If you like [maligned instrument], then just say, "I like [maligned instrument]."
There is no need to add the, "...if played well, " qualifier because it should be easily assumed that one would *not* like [maligned instrument], or any instrument for that matter, played badly.
If you like it, just say that you like it. That should be enough.
# Posted on October 15th 2007 by browndog
Re: Things about ITM you don't like.....
people who post replies to questions who know very little.
which ties in to......
lack of humility.
comparing it to other musics.
# Posted on October 15th 2007 by szifty
Re: Things about ITM you don't like.....
Ego and the incestuous nature Traditional Irish Music seems to bring out in some players...
Somebody once told me they were ignored in a session, until their name was heard and they were considered a good musician, then everyone was best mates...I hate that sh*t.
It's ever prevelant, and usually younger kids develop and loose this, but there are of coursre old wans going around with the same attitude....
For Example, that fella,
Finbarr Mac gibbleybits
(oh his father was a wonderful singer)
# Posted on October 15th 2007 by Hugo Chavez
Re: Things about ITM you don't like.....
I DON'T LIKE:
- A CERTAIN GUITAR PLAYER AT MY LOCAL SESSION WHO GETS REALLY DRUNK AND OUT OF TIME..
-HE ALSO HAS A STARING PROBLEM
-BORING SONGS
-WHEN I CAN'T GET A COOL TUNE RIGHT
-THE FACT THAT I AM CRAP ON MY ACCORDION
-THE FACT THAT I GET VERY LIGHT HEADED WHEN PLAYING THE FLUTE
ALSO WHEN MY KEYBOARD IS ON CAPS LOCK AND I DON'T REALISE IT... oh wait thats nowt to do with ITM...
# Posted on October 15th 2007 by person
Re: Things about ITM you don't like.....
The fact it's not english
# Posted on October 15th 2007 by D.J.F.
Re: Things about ITM you don't like.....
Actually, that's what I DO like about it.
# Posted on October 15th 2007 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: Things about ITM you don't like.....
Seriously!
# Posted on October 15th 2007 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Things about ITM you don't like.....
I don't like it when a poor bodhran player turns up a bit late (as happened last week) and can't find a seat because they're taken up by dogs. What will tonight bring? Can't wait...
# Posted on October 15th 2007 by RichardB
Re: Things about ITM you don't like.....
RichardB, I always carry cooked bacon in order to secure a seat in the circumstances you described, with enough in reserve to secure a second seat in case Tonya turns up.
# Posted on October 15th 2007 by oldstrings
Securing a seat and staying cool...
Oldstrings and RichardB have raised this...
One of the great session attending dilemmas is:
(i) Do you turn up before the music starts, guaranteeing that you get a seat in your favourite place but in doing so apperaing a bit too enthuiastic, lame and amateur or do you
(ii) Breeze in much later on when the playing's in full swing, buy a pint, go outside for a fag, chat to all and sundry and finally, cooly stoll over to the musicians but miss getting a half decent seat at all thus blowing any Brownie points for overall coolness?
# Posted on October 15th 2007 by yhaalhouse
Re: Things about ITM you don't like.....
I don't like thread hijacks.
By the way chuneboi, you mentioned above that The Providence Reel is one of your favorites. It is in D, but I have always accompanied it by starting it with an A chord. But I ran into someone who wants me to use an Em chord at the beginning, which I don't care for nearly as much as the A chord. What do you use?
# Posted on October 15th 2007 by AlBrown
Re: Things about ITM you don't like.....
"Things about ITM you don't like..."
Having to worry about if I'm cool, lame, overly-enthusiastic, etc.
So, I don't. You're supposed to be playing airs, not putting them on.
# Posted on October 15th 2007 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Things about ITM you don't like.....
Sunnybear: “flute on my right
accordion on my left”
Is that like “clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right...”?
# Posted on October 15th 2007 by Bob himself
Re: Things about ITM you don't like.....
hey! Wotchit!
# Posted on October 15th 2007 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: Things about ITM you don't like.....
Trying to get a pint and the buggers won't let tha lad in to take the nod.
# Posted on October 15th 2007 by Enigma
Re: Things about ITM you don't like.....
Extroverted session goers with big mouths who need to be the center of attention constantly.
# Posted on October 15th 2007 by Hanley
Re: Things about ITM you don't like.....
Browndawg, old chap, get off of your high horse for a minute. I selected piano, guitar and bouzouki for "if well played" qualification for very good reason. These are much-maligned instruments and I was making the point that I think they can be really good in ITM if well played because I was defending them, not making special rules for them. Try to get into the spirit of things, old chap. "Frowning emoticon with the one raised eyebrow" to you.
# Posted on October 15th 2007 by Steve Shaw
Re: Things about ITM you don't like.....
Al Brown,
I play single dropped D so I on the first Bar I play D A E on the bottom 3strings for the the first two beats and I peddle a high D for the rest of the 1st four bars and then change to a
EBE 1/2 barre on the fist two beats of the fifth bar to build it up heavier again then peddle the low D. Your suggestion of the A sounds promising I'll try that on the repeat of the A part.
# Posted on October 16th 2007 by chuneboi slim
Re: Things about ITM you don't like.....
P.S as usual its over complicated. Sorry.
# Posted on October 16th 2007 by chuneboi slim
Re: Things about ITM you don't like.....
Ahh, Mr. Steve Shaw, F.E.W.T.O.R.E. received. Unfortunately I can't think of a clever emoticon to send back to you, so I'll have to settle for this one:
No high horse at all, good sir. Well within the spirit of things, my point is that there have been literally hundreds of posts here over the years where someone says, "I like [maligned-instrument], if played well."
I feel that such defensiveness should not be necessary. If you like [maligned-instrument], then it there should be no need to add the "if played well". It would be refreshing too see someone just state, "I like ....." Allow me to demonstrate:
I like bodhran, piano, guitar, and bouzouki in Irish Traditional Music.
There, that was easy. The fact that there is often recrimination from the "Oh-Yea?-Well-What-About-Yon-Basher-Thrasher-Squawker-Squeaker-Over-There," naysayer sect does not make me feel a need to add the "if played well" qualifier, because I would hope that said-naysayer would have the good sense to know that I wasn't referring to said basher-thrasher-squeaker-squawker.
Unless I'm misunderstanding your point, I think we are in 100% agreement on the maligned-instruments. I was not commenting on the instrument, but rather the defensiveness that accompanies many people's postings about their liking of said instrument.
After all, frisbee did indeed say, "So the main purpose of this thread is to just express your dislike of something without fear of recrimination."
No high horse, good sir. Perhaps just a misunderstanding of my original post. I hope this clears the air. Now *here's* the emoticon that I'll send to you:
All the best,
Woof.
# Posted on October 16th 2007 by browndog
Re: Things about ITM you don't like.....
Message understood, old chap. It just sounded as though you were side-swiping at me as I was the most recent person to come out with the thing you were railing against. I would just add that it's sometimes very difficult to say something without qualification. For example, whilst it would not be entirely inaccurate, it would be highly ~misleading~ if I said I like the bodhran in ITM and left it at that. I do like the bodhran in ITM. I like Christy Moore's playing of it, I like Johnny McDonagh's playing of it. But you and I both know that the vast majority of those who purport to play it are outstandingly bad at it. So in order to communicate accurately what I think using this wonderful language of ours I can say such things as "I like the bodhran if it's well played." It may be too vague, and even too much of a cliché, I fully accept, but goodness me you don't really want me to be rattling on in depth every time it comes up incidentally about exactly how, when, where and by whom I like the bloody thing to be played. Like I just have now, again. Wake up at the back!
# Posted on October 16th 2007 by Steve Shaw
Re: Things about ITM you don't like.....
Thanks for the accomaniment info, chuneboi. No need to apologize for the complexity, you gave me some good ideas that I can work into my approach to the tune!
And now, back to our regularly scheduled program, which offers more proof that ITM players can produce more "whines" than the Napa Valley.....
# Posted on October 16th 2007 by AlBrown
Re: Things about ITM you don't like.....
I don't speak in code.
# Posted on October 16th 2007 by Steve Shaw
Re: Things about ITM you don't like.....
Stick it WHERE???
# Posted on October 16th 2007 by Steve Shaw
Re: Things about ITM you don't like.....
Al Brown,
The A chord sounds great by the way. C.Boi.
# Posted on October 16th 2007 by chuneboi slim
Re: Things about ITM you don't like.....
substituteing a relative major for a minor when the tune note are the minor ie C for Em. that allways bugs me. .
# Posted on October 20th 2007 by jig
Re: Things about ITM you don't like.....
and people who speed up, or worse slow down!..........hey i kinda like this thread,
# Posted on October 20th 2007 by jig
Re: Things about ITM you don't like.....
Ethnocentrism and anything related to that (racism) that sometimes raises its ugly head when someone of non-Irish background happens to be able to hold his/her own in a session...
Don't knock us because we practice more often and harder a lot of the time. We are here to stay - get used to it!
# Posted on October 23rd 2007 by dtb
Re: Things about ITM you don't like.....
1) Bad & novice players who want to play in public
2) Excessive ornamentation at the expense of rhythm
3) Self-styled Gurus who are not actually very good
4) The Danny Boy, Irish Eyes Are Smiling & Toora Loora Brigade
5) That aspect of American education which has bred a generation which believes that self-esteem, however unjustified, is more important than ability or excellence.
6) Counter-culture beardy-weirdies
I used to play professionally. In the event, I chose a different career. I got out of practice at various times. I did not inflict myself on listeners by playing in public while out of practice. What would I get out of it ? What would they ? Embarrassment, and cringing, respectively, I think. I get as much of a buzz out of listening to good music as I do out of playing. If I get invited to play - fine. If I don't - fine too. Doesn't bother me in the slightest.
Allow me to comment on some maligned instruments :
Bodhran - Too often used by people with little or no understanding of the music but who want to be in on the act. Good bodhran-playing, sadly rare, is a very subtle art. Listen to Johnny Ringo McDonagh & how he follows & anticipates rhythmic subtlety & ornamentation if you want to see what I mean. Whacking the bodhran in time to the music is not bodhran playing.
Piano - Not really suited to accompaniment of ITM - it is VERY difficult, on a piano, to get the subtlety of rhythm that is intrinsic to good playing of dance music. I know some piano players though, who can play slow airs to make the angels quiet & flock to listen. That said, though - I have on occasion jammed with jazzmen who did a mean job on accompaniment. Extraordinary, but I will admit that we were straying considerably outside of the tradition.
Piano accordeon - Much as with piano.
Banjo - Needs a very fluid style. Personal preference, perhaps, but banjo played in the manner of the Sligo-Roscommon fiddle style is to my ear delightful.
Kids - Novices & people from other musical traditions - Listen, listen, and listen. Get one or other of Chronotron or Guitar & Drum Trainer & install on a PC. Either will allow you to slow tempo of music without changing key, or change key without changing tempo. Slow the playing of good players down. Listen to them play. Listen to where they ornament. Listen to the rhythm. Both individually may surprise you. So may the combination. Play along with them. Practice, practice, practice. Don't be in too much of a hurry to play in public. It is much better to be appreciated than patronised.
# Posted on October 29th 2007 by Sean Lead Liath
Re: Things about ITM you don't like.....
"1) Bad & novice players who want to play in public"
I'm sorry but I can't agree with this at all. Aren't sessions meant to be not jsut about playing together, but learning? People have to start somewhere, and you would think a session would be the best place to learn, from more experienced musicians. This kind of attitude is not needed in the folk world.
# Posted on October 29th 2007 by TheBlueBandana
Re: Things about ITM you don't like.....
Ah. "Folk". I see.
You state that "you would think a session would be the best place to learn, from more experienced musicians". This is indeed true. ITM sessions are about learning, for sure. Through listening. Learning through playing is the province of tutorials, workshops, & private practice. In these days of PCs, and the software I mention above, the current learning generation is uniquely privileged. You can session along, at home, to your heart's content with Frankie Gavin, John Carty, Angelina Carberry, Martin Quinn, Seamus Creagh, Tommy Peoples, Matt Molloy, Noel Hill .....Giants, seeped in the tradition. You want to accompany ? Listen to Andy Irvine and Alec Finn. You can slow them down. You can learn subtlety. You can listen. You can do this, and become very good, without annoying anyone. You can do this IF you are dedicated enough. But, PLEASE, do not confuse learning with the session tradition. Learning is a tremendous pleasure, in its own right. So is session playing, in its own right. I teach ITM. It gives me enormous pleasure when kids get to a standard suited to public playing.
The number of times I have been at sessions - as a listener where I have been uplifted by divine subtlety - only to be brought back to earth with a thud by Mr Beardo Beer Gut to my left, drowning out good music with a clunk clunk 3-chord trick on his guitar, or Miss Tin Whistle on my right, screeching in the upper register, out of time. Worst of all is Joe Bodhran - boom, boom, boom - In time, OK, but murderously flat and un-nuanced. Then there's Peggy on the piano, crucifying a glorious modal tune by strait-jacketing it in to A minor.
Lord - What do people want ? Public lessons ? Let me tell one war story. I was once asked to play in a pub in Kerry. Under some pressure, I did so, because I cannot actually play Kerry music. I played one set - not Kerry. The tourists loved it. But I shut up then. Not my session, not my music - extremely generous of the musicians to ask me to play, at all. The single nod that I got from the son of the house - a man seeped in the tradition - meant something. The clapping of the tourists did not. Sadly, sadly, the tradition in the Kerry town in question is now out of the pubs, which have become "Inclusive" and full of bad dilettantes; the sort of people who would yell "Elitist" or "Ethnocentric" at people who want to listen to real music. The real music is now exclusively played at home, in private, & unless you are very well in, which sadly I am not, inaccessible.
Oh - I know - the tourists and "Folk" musicians lap the current pub scene up, and the pub owners make a lot of money, which brings wealth to the region, & it is not for visitors like me to decry the development of the tourist trade - But Lord, how I miss the good Kerry music of the 70s.
# Posted on October 30th 2007 by Sean Lead Liath
Re: Things about ITM you don't like.....
To "Sean Lead Laith":
Blimey!
This is one of the most snobby/ snooty postings I've ever seen on this board!
And that's saying something, innit?!
Chill out and join in!
The past is gone! There's no looking back!
but I'm sure some of your "specialist" knowledge could be quite useful, appropriately applied, as music evolves around us.
# Posted on October 30th 2007 by yhaalhouse
Re: Things about ITM you don't like.....
I rather doubt it, but I appear to be causing offence, which is not my wish at alI. With sincere apologies for any offence I may have caused, I shall bow out. Bainigi taitneamh as an gceol.
# Posted on October 30th 2007 by Sean Lead Liath
Re: Things about ITM you don't like.....
Nae offence to me mate. Keep it up
# Posted on October 30th 2007 by llig leahcim
Re: Things about ITM you don't like.....
Please don't go anywhere Sean. Sentiments like yours and Llig's are vital. They are a counter-weight to what you are complaining of. Without your force on that side of things, the weight from the other side would pull it too far.
I love to embrace newbies and try to spread the knowledge, brake for beginners, and all that. It's how I was once hooked myself.
Now, however, I see and actually pine what you're talking about.
When you have dedicated yourself to it, fallen in love with it, and reached a certain skill level with the music, you want it to be the best it can be, each and every time. You want it to be better and better and better, every time you play it, and it's downright maddening when people don't burn with the same intensity.
# Posted on October 30th 2007 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Things about ITM you don't like.....
Sean Lead Liath, a chara.
One of the more poignant pieces of writing that I've read in a long time.
Please don't be upset by the ignorant reply that you got from your man, yhaalhouse. To explain why, let me paint a wee picture for you. This is a fellow who has recently begun to turn up at sessions around London, armed with - of all things - a big ukulele which he strums along badly much to the annoyance (or barely concealed amusement, depending on their mood) of the musicians in attendance. He's already been advised by one of the sessions which he tormented to sling his hook and if he persists in making the sort of asinine comment which he made in reply to your sentiments, it can't be long before he is shown the door at a few others.
However, I note that said buck frequents The Kilkenny Tavern where my good pal, the estimable Alan O'Leary runs a sparkling session on Tuesday nights. Therefore, with Alan's permission (which I assume will be forthcoming), I'd like to ask yhaalhouse to put his money where his mouth is.
I'm due to be in London on Tuesday 13th November and I'll put the following challenge, which will give the world the opportunity to hear just why he is so uniquely qualified to pontificate as he does on Irish Traditional Music.
A friend of mine has said that he has recording gear which will make a high-quality recording, even in a busy session. So I'd like to offer yhaalhouse the opportunity to play a few sets of tunes which my friend will record and make available via the internet for all to hear. If yhaalhouse plays these well, then I'm sure that we'll all give him the benefit of thr doubt when he makes comments such as he made in reply to Sean's writing. If, on the other hand, he has as little music in him as I suspect, then we'll treat his comments with the weight which they deserve.
I'm not suggesting anything fancy or difficult. Just a set of reels and a set of jigs. Easy reels - The Dairymaid and The Merry Blacksmith. Easy jigs - The Eavesdropper and The Blarney Pilgrim. Everybody knows them. And I'll not ask anyone to do something that I wouldn't do myself. I'll give both sets a rattle, no bother, and stick my recordings up on the internet at the same time.
So what do you say, yhaalhouse? The ball's in your court.
And Sean - you sound like a gas man and I'd welcome the chance for a few tunes with you. Beannacht.
# Posted on October 31st 2007 by Micky Finn
Re: Things about ITM you don't like.....
A chairde dhil –
Thank you for the generous sentiments. Micky – go mba fada buan tu – I loved your post. In actual fact, “Micky Finn” was my first choice of handle for this forum; you of course already had it. Thank you for the tip re the Kilkenny Tavern; I shall make a point of attending next time I am in London on a Tuesday. I live a peripatetic life - greetings from East Asia.
If I may, I would not wish yhaalhouse to be subjected to any public trial on my account – I have a much thicker skin than would allow of any upset on foot of any tirade from him or anyone else. As the handle – Sean Lead Liath (“Old Grey Fellow” – no etymological connection, incidentally, with the forename “Seán”) indicates, I have been around rather a long time, & am long past the age at which I might think that the world would be a better place were everyone to think as I do; hence my aversion to causing offence.
I am always bemused by people asking about session etiquette, & when it is appropriate to play in new company. There is really only one answer – user yizzer <insert favourite expletive> God-given cop-on. If people actually want specific guidelines – Here goes - If all you can do is a 3-chord trick on a guitar, don’t drown out the ‘zouk player who has taken the trouble to develop tricky counterpoint. If you’re a newbie whistle player, don’t use the upper register unnecessarily. On whatever instrument - Are you in tune ? In time ? Playing the same version of the tunes as the regulars ? Handling the speed ? If you’re playing too many duff notes, take a rest. Bodhrans can be great, but please don’t drown the music. Hell’s Bell’s – ITM is like anything else in life – discretion, courtesy and understatement are universally attractive attributes in anyone.
With all that said, though, I have something of an issue with folk music bruisers who affect to see a continuum between folk & the Irish instrumental tradition. The only connection I can actually see is that the record companies file both under “Folk” (Abomination ! Abomination !).
I am not actually a purist, but, in the final analysis, ITM is about instrumental virtuosity. Backpackers playing Ralph McTell, or the first 7,654 stanzas of “American Pie” sometimes need a little sensitivity. Then there was the lovely American girl at one session, who asked could she play her whistle. But of course. She might have been the next Mary Bergin. Perhaps she was. It was kinda hard to tell, from her rendition of “Twinkle Twinkle Little Star”. But she had the grace to be sweet, and shy, and respectful, and she was clearly enjoying the session playing.
# Posted on October 31st 2007 by Sean Lead Liath
Re: Things about ITM you don't like.....
Sean, I share with many of the frustrations you express in this forum, and I've been persecuted for my own expression of them more than a few times. (Look up any of my rants on noodling for example.) But as much as I sympathize with the main thrust of what you're expressing, I have to take issue with one point that seems to be a bit superficial and unwarranted prejudice. Consider the following quotes:
"Counter-culture beardy-weirdies"
"Mr Beardo Beer Gut"
Now, mind you I’m not the best concertina and flute player, but I have put considerable time and effort into playing Irish music over the past 20 years or so, and I’ve spent as much time, (and money,) as I can afford in Ireland with the hope to understand this music I have become enamored with and contribute to sessions I participate in with respect and some ability. I also have a rather large beard and I might be considered by many to be “counter-culture;” at least politically since I am a serious dissenter from the current criminal administration that has ceased power in my country of origin.
So here’s my question: could your prejudice against extraordinary and unconventional facial hair be a result of bad association; or does it truly indicate sub-standard and disrespectful musicianship?
Here's the lastest photo of your's truly that I have so you can see if this qualifies me or not.
http://www.tipsyhouse.com/jackandpals_sm.jpg
P.S. Since this is the Internet I'll have to explain this before anyone gets the wrong idea... I'm not serious... I'm joking... ok?
# Posted on October 31st 2007 by Phantom Button
Re: Things about ITM you don't like.....
"at least politically since I am a serious dissenter from the current criminal administration that has ceased power in my country of origin."
Normally I refrain from being the spell-check maven, but in this instance I feel it's necessary to convey the right concept---that should say "seized power", and not "ceased power" (although we can always hope)
Sorry, back to our regular music discussion...
# Posted on October 31st 2007 by kennedy
Re: Things about ITM you don't like.....
Geezz... how'd that happen? Beard musta got in the way.
# Posted on October 31st 2007 by Phantom Button
Re: Things about ITM you don't like.....
Maybe it was Freudian typo---you typed what your subconscious wanted to be true...
# Posted on October 31st 2007 by kennedy
Re: Things about ITM you don't like.....
If it was a Freudian typo my penis would have gotten in the way.
# Posted on October 31st 2007 by Phantom Button
Re: Things about ITM you don't like.....
Phantom Button -
You have my profound respect, Sir. The fair Mrs. Sean Lead Liath constrained my goodself to take a razor to my own luxuriant facial locks some years ago.
I was actullay abstracting the CAMRA brigade, or some elements thereof, or the lads who believe that a fat spliff makes 'em play better.
It is furthermore quite some time since I went out with a vigilante group of fáinne & pioneer pin sporting heavies in shiny-assed suits, armed with hurleys, to put manners on lads who don't play exactly like Seamus Ennis. You probably remember the quote - "Will they pillory us, if we come to power with a hurley in one hand and a chanter in the other ?" I'm in the political wing of the Purist Movement nowadays.
White flag now up in advance of any potential deluge of objections from CAMRA defenders & substance users.
# Posted on November 1st 2007 by Sean Lead Liath
Re: Things about ITM you don't like.....
Sean - Don't concern yourself with putting Yaarsehole on public trial your account. There is no trial. He is guilty on all accounts of manifesting himself at sessions in London and not having the faintest clue of what this music is about, then coming on this site and vindicating everyone's suspicions. He needs to be told, even if need be on a public forum, but unfortunately I think he is beyond learning and thus changing. And I know I speak for many.
# Posted on November 5th 2007 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: Things about ITM you don't like.....
Maniac Lad -
I noted in your profile - "I don't like it when the po-faced PC brigade or the self-appointed experts and guardians of the tradition start spouting off, although I can be guilty of that too." I rather doubt that you are guilty of it. Asking for courtesy & for respect for other players, & listeners, & for the music, can be confused with the type of attitude you describe. I have come across enough of it in my time. The tendency can have unfortunate effects; there are those who aver that interest in the music, in order to be "Legitimate", must of needs be associated with particular political & social outlooks, to wit, those that characterise the traditionalist rural Irish conservative world-view. This is, I suppose, one interpretation of "Purism".
I state here - guardedly, in that the matter referenced is still emotive in Ireland - that I felt constrained to part company with Comhaltas Ceoltoiri Eireann in 1983 over a public stance taken by that organisation on a matter wholly unrelated to music. I considered that the public message imparted was that the music was the exclusive preserve of those possessed of one very specific outlook on matters national & social. Nope - I don't make accidental allusions. Enough.
# Posted on November 7th 2007 by Sean Lead Liath