So,....... Is there room in the tradition for melodic improvisation?
I notice some of my fav players do, but I wont cite names.
How would one go about this?
Melodic improvisation is an integral part of many musical styles.
In what way could it be considered legitimate in ITM?
Depends on what you mean by "improvisation". If you mean it is the jazz sense, that someone makes up an entirely new melody based on the chord structure, that is out of place in Irish traditional music. I've heard non-Irish players sit in on a session and try to do this, and it sounds terrible.
Now, if you mean the art of variation, that is very much a part of Irish traditional music. The guy I originally learned Irish music from said "it's better to learn 20 ways to play one tune, than to learn 20 tunes." And that's how I learned. First I learned a bunch of different ways (probably not actually 20) of how to play McLeod's Reel, then a bunch of ways of playing Old Hag You Have Killed Me, and so on. He would teach me a tune, then say "Now you know the tune. Now it's time to f**k with it" by which he meant learn a lot of different ways to play the same tune. So, from the beginning I learned the flexibility, the plasiticity of Irish music. That an Irish tune is not one specific string of notes, but a notion that can be expressed in a limitless number of ways. On tunes I know well, I would have a difficult time playing them the same way twice. Only tunes I've just learned are played the same way every time, just because I haven't had time to explore them.
Some players have the ability to completely rearrange all the notes in a tune, yet still play the same tune. Others, with nothing more than subtle variations in accent and phrasing, can make it sound like another tune altogether.
I think it's great when a backer is playing around with the tune and complementing it with counterpoint and some improvisation, but if you mean melody players messing around over other melody players then the tune gets clouded and it doesn't work.
Are you playing the tune or are you improvising? Can you do both? I don't think so, but that's just MHO.
We get a Bluegrass fiddler stop by our sessions once in a while and he improvs all over the place. Is he playing the tune? No. Does he know the tune? No. He's improvising, and that's not playing the tune. He does know some of the tunes, and he plays them with us. He doesn't improvise on those.
Yes, have fun, if it's your session, improv away.
However, when you go to other sessions you may find folks wondering what you're doing if you're not playing the tunes with them.
When/if the Bluegrass guy comes back and does it again, I may very well ask him (if he’s driving us nuts again) to please play the tunes he knows and to not play those he doesn’t.
I wouldn't do this among strangers, and wouldn't go beyond some simple improvised harmonies and countermelodies. Too much, and the music loses its identity and starts becoming something else. We had a drunk young man who showed up once with a whistle and proceeded to noodle at high volume in the upper register, someone finally told him to knock it off, he thought he was at a "jam session," which is an entirely different thing, where improvisation is the way things work.
Variation of a tune on the spot is improvisation, as such ALL the great trad players did/do improvise.
Tommy Potts has been described as an improvisational composer in the way he took tunes and really explored their possibilities through improvisation.
Would such improvisation work in a session, probably not, but highly developed variation improvisation can work well in a session if it is a good player listeining to everything going on around them.
If you listen closely to Atlan, when they play they are all constantly improvising variations and this can create spontatneous harmony and counterpoint. This to me is what group playing in trad is all about, not 30 people playing the exact same notes over and over, that has nothing to do with ITM.
Fundamentally ITM is a soloists tradition where the soloist is expected to spontaneously vary (improvise with) the tune in a skillful and tasteful way.
If you're not talking about tune variation though and are just talking about jazz style improvisations over chord changes then of course that's not going to work in a session, but it does occasionally work well in ensemble arrangements to break up tune sets and while it's not exactly 'traditional' it could be seen as a development of the art of tune variation. There are some players who do this but they tend to always refer to a particular tune whilst doing such improv.
I think the difference might be summed up as "improvising bits of a tune" in Irish, compared to "improvising on a theme" in jazz. In Irish, the basic tune still has to be there - and if you're playing with other melody players, your improvisation has to work alongside the original as well.
It's true that you hear some of the great players who play a tune, and you can recognize the tune, but very few of the notes are the same ones that you might play. There's a real art to that, and I think it is probably harder than improvising in jazz, which seems much more open to interpretation.
This is a wonderful part of the tradition, and one that I am just recently starting to experience in my own playing. For me, the trick was to let go of "THE notes", and stop worrying about whether I played the "right note" at any given place. If you think about the shape of the tune, and where it is going, you can find different ways to get there. I am looking forward to that unending journey of exploring the tunes! It's the most fun you can have with your clothes on!
Ask Mozart, Gershwin, Pickettywitch, Phillip Glass, Schoenenberg, McCartney, Rolf Harris and Dr. Dre.
Hello! (in the voice of Leslie Phillips)
Without improvization there are no new tunes.
When one writes a tune, one is improvizing, n'es-ce pas?
Ask Mozart, Gershwin, Pickettywitch, Phillip Glass, Schoenenberg, McCartney, Rolf Harris and Dr. Dre, innit?
Improvising to me means something other than the tune.
If what you have done is no longer recognizable as the tune, then you've failed, haven't you? You have not communicated the tune to another musician.
If it is, no matter what you're done to it, then you've succeeded.
Obviously if you're writing then you're improvising as you're creating something new, not varying or ornamenting something already in existence, or creating a new variation or ornament of something already in existence, on the fly, which is also creation or writing, regardless of what you call it.
Sure, I do strange things to tunes every time I play, either from adjusting what I'm playing to match someone else, or I'm in the lead and who knows what the heck I'm thinking, but again, if the tune has not been communicated, I (or the current tune leader) have failed.
IMPROVISATION WORKS ... oops, caps lock.. eh works very well with slow airs I find. well it worked for me in a fleadh once. yerman thought twas a great variation!!
Rev, I got Buster Bodhran on the phone asking about a 'session in the bordello'? I think all this "lack of clothing" talk got his attention? I don't, I told him you'd get back to him. He left a rambling voice mail.
I think that when it comes to questions like this, people react based on experience. What you suggest is difficult at best, but if one can do it well, no one is going to complain. On a very few tunes, I have played a counterpoint or a drone to the approval of the group. However, I do not possess the skill to actually improvise within the structure of the tune while others are playing the straight melody, so I don't attempt it. Hopefully, if you attempt it, you will have the musical chops to know if it is not working before someone needs to tell you.
If you had asked a thousand people if flute could be a lead instrument in rock music, probably only one would have said yes, and that one would probably have been Ian Anderson.
Moral of the story: Rules are meant to be broken, but keep your wits about you.
This discussion may be dying already, but I think it might be useful to add some detail.
To my mind, going flying off into a harmony line, not "the tune" is only acceptable in defined circumstances.
The kind of thing that is acceptable to my mind is,
- a triplet instead of a roll, and vice versa.
- dotted crotchet + quaver instead of four quavers.
(dotted quarter note + eighth note instead of four eighth notes.)
- Going the other way from "home" to "home" within half a bar, ie replacing one of the passing notes with something probably a third away
Etc.
Whether you are improvising, embellishing or tossing in a few harmony bits, or playing it straight, you still need to know the tune and work within the framework of the melody. Anything else is a clusterF%4# and a detriment to the session.
You could do worse than have a look at the improvisation in ITM ? thread, from an alternative viewpoint but it answered my question and will answer yours jig
Just listen to Cormac Breatnach's playing and it will answer the query of this thread. In my opinion, he is the only trad player I've heard who has succeeded in blending the improvisational elements of jazz with ITM. He seems to know exactly where the edges are and he seamlessly puts them together. He’s a genius.
ok, well i was talking about say ; the space between two phrases of a tune. I am just, now 25 yrs later, finding i know a tune well enough to keep the bones in mind and improvising´a phrase then returning to the tune..As it is improvised i wouldn't really repeat myself. I presume i would be extemporizing on the bones of the tunes rather than introducing new motifs. It is an unconscious thing, i think....... I know nothing about jazz,i have been aITM player since my teens. Flamenco would spring to mind as another improvised yet traditional style.. Or perhaps a lead solo from a rock player,still referring to the tune melody.
Anyhow, interesting comments,thanks.
I must counter chadmills' point that 'Basically, this music [ITM] is built on the tune. Jazz etc. is built on a chord sequence.'.
This might be true of some elements of jazz music, but not all. Charlie Parker, for instance, was a musician whose improvisation was almost entirely based upon imaginative extensions of a melodic line. That was also true of Miles Davis in his bebop days, but certainly not so from the late 1950s onwards - his work on 'Sketches of Spain', for instance, might be interpreted as painting a canvas, rather than wondering who was supplying the colours and brushes. Some of his albums, such as the 'Jack Johnson' soundtrack and Live/Evil rely on very few chord changes in the individual tunes and these are often a long distance from each other.
Trad jazz is largely based upon chordal sequence, but this certainly did not apply to 'modern jazz' musicians such as Sun Ra, Albert Ayler or Cecil Taylor.
I don't think you need to search that hard for folks who can improvise in trad music. I just listened to an Eileen Ivers CD where she tears through Crock of Gold and Julia Delaney with all sorts of tension building phrases and notes outside the structure of the actual melody line. Brilliant - but in a solo instrument setting.
I think there is a fear here which typifies the general uptightness and reticence prevalent in the majority of people who try to play this music. There is such a fear of not getting it right that the freedom to really feel the music is constricted.
Some one above talked of the plasticity of it. Good that, That's a good word to describe it.
Someone else said something about you are either playing the tune or not. When you appreciate the plasticity, you realise how redundent that statement is.
Just to add to MacCruiskeen's comments about jazz improvisation. I think all good jazz improvisers consider their improvisations to be variations of the main theme. The great Irish Jazz Guitarist Louis Stewart once said that when he's improvising he constantly thinks of the tune, his improv is a response to the melody. This isn't much different to what great trad players do, the jazzers just do variations on a larger scale.
Just listen to John Carty's fiddle and tenor banjo recordings if you want to hear some brilliant improvisations which don't violate the basic integrity of the tune.
I've been playing the fiddle for thirty years and some of the warhorse tunes, such as Miss McCloud's Reel, The Silver Spear, and The Kid On the Mountain, would bore me silly if I stuck to the main melody. I play mostly with younger players who tend to stick to the melody; many play from sheet music. I have a repertoire of variations which don't clash with "straight" playing and I'm always coming up with new ones.
But then I live in a small town (Hannibal, Missouri) and the few musicians here have to put with each other's eccentricities!
just reading what szfity wrote...obviously you have no idea about irish traditional music to come out with such a rediculus statement! Irish traditional music has no room for "improvisation" what so ever! People who believe that they can improvise in a traditional genre are kidding themselves one into thinking that anything that sounds good goes, that two they think they can play that traditional genre of music, three can't really play anyway and are probably from the old folky scene that perpetuates sh*t players and sh*t versions of tunes just because they lack the talent or the perception or ability to actually listen to the music. It is one of the most blatant insults to any traditional music form or genre to think that you can play around with it to the point that it departs from what it actually was. Variations are a totally different discussion and should not even be likened or thought of in the same light as improvisation. Call me old fasion if you like, but i hold true to the traditional genre that i play....don't f*&k around with it!
well tombo, what is traditional? we have no record of players performance from the 19c and earlier. So i have to take your opinions with a pinch of salt so to speak.
You have criteria you consider to be trad, but to say someone like E Ivers cant play trad ,and she improvises, is simply incorrect. good luck with your music.
'we have no record of players performance from the 19c'
We in fact do, Dinny Delaney, Mici Cumba, George McCarthy (the one that was one the £50 note), Jem Byrne, Patsy Touhey, Wm Hanafin, James Early, John McFadden, Edward Cronin, Bernard Delaney all have their playing firmly rooted in the 19th century and records of their music exist, among those of a good few others.
I always remember a very sobering moment while attending a
jazz summer school in my early twenties when this high profile
American drummer came into the room , listened attentively to what we were doing as a quartet, and then said, " I haven't heard anyone playing the melody yet!". We all looked at the ground. We were just following the chords."
Any good playing to me is based on being able to hear what you play before you play it, not chord surfing. I reckon improvising in Irish music is within a framework pretty much.
Like Frankie does it. It is two steps more understated than the early Loius Armstrong New Orleans street jazz that they didn't stray too far away from the melody. But the underlying theme to me has to be an attempt at varying the melody , where you are in control before, during and after you're doing it.
Its also a humourous thing, and I believe its pretty instrument specific, for example I reckon banjo and box players get away with it a lot better than fiddle players and whistle players. (Can
someone lend me a can opener for these worms?)
Personally at my humble level I find it sounds great when done well , but I'm struggling to play the tune straight as it is at this stage anyway in a session.
Regarding the "plasticity" of ITM, and the ability of good traditional players to play a tune in such a way that they never repeat it exactly the same, I came up with a theory about how traditional players learn and perform traditional tunes, reels in particular. That theory is that traditional players don't look at a reel as a particular string of specific notes, but as a collection of traditional motifs. There are a large number of these stock motifs, each with a certain rythm and a certain harmonic feel. These motifs exists in groups or families, each familiy consisting of a number of motifs which are interchangable. This really struck me when I met a certain great player who, upon hearing any particular reel for the first time, could immediately play it back. What she played back was not the same linear set of notes, but was equivalent, and if fact was a more interesting version of my tune than the one I had played to her. It dawned on me that rather than a specific set of notes she was conceptualising the tune as:
(G reel motif-family #4) +
(G reel motif-family #6) +
(D reel motif-family #3) etc.
A simple example of this in action is the beginning of the 2nd part of the slip jig Kid On The Mountain. You could play:
9/8 BGB AF#A G2D (if I understand ABC rightly)
but you could also play:
BGG AF#F# G2D with taps seperating. Or:
BBB AAA G2D using long rolls. Or:
BBG AAF# G2D using short rolls. Or:
BDD ADD GDD hammering down to bottom D's.
Now, are these jazz-style improvisatons? Absolutely not. Or are they variations dreamed up on the spot? Not at all. I am simply drawing from various members of the relevant motif-families. One could be called "G jig motif-family #1" which consists of:
BBB, BGB. GGB, BGG, BDD and probably many others if I thought about it for a while. Now, in any jig, where I'm on a G chord and the melody is implying one of these "family members", I can use ANY of the other family members just as well. In fact, I don't even have any sort of concept that one particular choice is any more the "real tune" than any other. The "tune" calls for a member of that motif-family to be played at that spot, it doesn't matter which member, as they are all analogous.
Ahem. Any trad tune has slight variations in the melody (regional inflections, aural translation from memory, etc) which do not violate the integrity of the tune. An adept accompanist can (and most often will) improvise without disrupting the melody line, by adding shifting musical colours in the background. Key words: "adept" and "background".
Richard, what you are espousing is very very dangerous indeed, You are saying that you don't need to learn the turns of a tune, just their shapes. I really really cannot disagree more. Your approach condems the music to repetitious mediocrity. Sure, mess with the turns, but very very importantly, learn them right first.
At the end of the day music is up to yourself what you do with it.
There is no hierarchy needed to justify ones playing ,and if you need the approval of others to say wether or not you can play Irish music then you're only stunting your own growth and possibly others in their progress as a musician.
I know many great players,and alot of them improvise including myself.
So I guess Cathal Hayden ,John Carthy or Frankie Gavin can't play traditional music...
You are entitled to your opinion Jig, though you really have no clue if you think that it is alright to improvise in any traditional music. Sure we don't have any recordings from before the 19c, but if you listen to the traditional players from ireland and go even that one step further talk to about improvisation I will bet you will get the answer that you learn the tune then you can apply variations to it.....THERE IS NO PLACE IN ITM FOR IMPROVISATION WHAT SO EVER. You are deluded to think there is! It always seems to me that the people that fall back on improvisation are those that really can't play and want to join in, or are too bloody lazy to understand a traditional music genre more deeply. Oh by the way E Ivers is not a traditional player.
I think the infectious spirit of the music is what brought us all to it in the first place, isn't it? Listen to Cathal Hayden in full flight... you recognize the tune, don't you? (you just can't play along with him) I think it still might be ITM... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gx8lRx7BTTA&mode
So. Learn the tune WELL first. Then, if you're feeling virtuostic, and won't bum out your playmates, go for it. They might even enjoy the ride.
So,Tombo,Johnny Doran didn't improvise?????????
Improvisation is variation.
Jazz musicians usually have a vocabulary of licks etc that they
play over certain chord changes in a structured fashion,in the same way we have tunes in ITM,just like a tune,improvisation is also composition sped up.
I play both.
And,there is room for everyone in music.
Anyone who makes such absolute statements and believes them is seriously living in the dark,or at least far away from what actually goes down in this genre.
If you play your music the exact same way every time,it gets boring,but that's up to you,coz you have a right to do that too.
Totally agree with you david and to llig variation is what ITM muscians use to vary the way the tune is played everytime round, it does not depart from the tune and always ensures that the melody stays intact and true to itself. People claim that John Carty and others improvise which is wrong, they are just true ITM musicians that understand the tunes and are playing variations that keep the tradition a live and constant in time. Improvisation is a blantant disregard for the music that departs from the true melody of the tune and in no way compliments it. It is useful technique for music suchas jazz and bluegrass but has no place in ITM. I hold to my observations and knowledge that people who improvise in ITM can't play and are using it as a crutch for their inadequacies.
The way I see it, and the way all the people I play with see it is pretty straight forward. If you can't feck about with it, what's the point. I'm perfectly willing to accept the existence of a whole separate tribe who refuse to feck about with it.
However, when this tribe can come out with such stuff as, "It is one of the most blatant insults to any traditional music form or genre to think that you can play around with it to the point that it departs from what it actually was", it's worth pointing out to them that all traditional musics undergo continuous change.
(Though before that other tribe shoots me down completely in flames, I have to reiterate that falling back on improvisation is not something I espouse. This is done by people who really can't play and merely want to join in and are too bloody lazy to understand the genre more deeply.)
A variation that is not planned has to be improvised.
How else would it happen?
The improvisation that works in ITM is usually very brief,so as not to divert to much from the main melody.
A planned variation is not improvisation.
A distinction has to be made and the universal term is improvisation,unless there is another,,,,
Tommy Potts used to improvise at length,and it worked.
Would anyone like to disagree with that?
Or are you even aware of his music?
Tombo,your observations are coming from a very narrow viewpoint,no offence.
I play both jazz and traditional and have been involved in a wide variety of musical situations.
I improvise.
Am I crap?
P. browne. I agree with everything except the bit about Jazz
musicians playing "licks" over chord changes. It wouldn't be long before you ran out of licks.
To all the Tories in this discussion, I don't think there's any real danger of sessions being overrun by rampant improvisers. If you where that into improvising, you would be an " improviser" and Irish music would be the last place you would park your butt.
Having said that I think all traditions are and have been subject to influences historically and have always remained in a state of flux.
Cheap stylising of the music (and I don't want to sound mean )
like the blatant inclusion of swing and jazz feels, which was so popular in the late nineties, sounded pretty good at the time, but I find listening to a lot of that stuff now, it sounds a bit throwaway. What has survived? The tunes of course.
I think the tradition would be shaped in future by much more
clever, subtle innovations, such as improvised variation.
Now let's face it, you're not going to survive on a bandstand
with a Trad Jazz band if you can't at least play the head of
"Do you know what it means to miss new orleans" through the first time with the rest of the guys or gals. The same applies
to Irish Music. The bad taste dudes eventually fall by the
wayside but the subtle, clever ones can change things forever.
This is an observation only. I am not good enough yet to
participate in the manipulation of a tradition.
they usually have hundreds of them,like trad players have tunes.
Only a rare few don't use them.
I've studied jazz and have had the opertunity to play with some great players.
And some jazzers do run out of them.
Yes, P. Browne, there would be licks to fall back on in a time of
random cowardice, but most of the people I know try to come up with something new everytime, otherwise, what's the point?
Do you think Bill Evans (the Piano one that is, ) just played licks, I doubt whether he ever even played one. What about Django, no doubt he played everything spontaneously, and on the rare occasion he did play a lick, he was probably taking the p*ss.
Improvisation is playing your own ideas spontaneously by ear,
sorry, I've studied it too and been in the right place at the right time, a few times, to be called up on stage to help out some people I never even thought I'd be sharing a beer with let alone a standard.
P.browne yes i maybe narrow minded in the eyes of those that play other music and think that it is cool to dabble in things like jazz and folky stuff....i mean if you don't these days you're not cool are you, you have to be out there..you know be able to improvise and make comment on all sorts of music! I don't give a flying f*&k whether you have studied jazz or african kazoo music, it just means that you probably don't truely understand ITM. It never ceases to amaze me how there are so many people that play ITM and think that they can improvise if they don't know a tune...... Get over you're fasination with other music forms and techniques when you play ITM, it is a tradition that was amazing before the likes of jazz etc enthusiasts came across it. It is pure arrogance to think that you are contributing something to the tradition if all you are doing is willy nilly improvising with the tune, get over yourselves and leave the improvisation for jazz etc!!!
Why don't you go out and the others that call us tories and learn the tunes, play the tunes the way they are ment to be played and that means variations as well (that do not leave the melody behind) and then come back and make comment about those that say that there is no place for improvisation in ITM. I never said that you had to play tunes exeactly the same every time or that the tradition can't change, i just maintain that to improvise in Irish Traditional music has no place, never has and never will.
I am sorry for the tone of the last two posts, everyone is entitled to their opinion but i feel very strongly about ITM and I have played in many a session where some moron has decided that they can play ITM and go on to improvise the whole time. The tradition always moves and changes, there is no dispute about that. But there are certain things that are always constant and boundaries that should not be crossed and one is not to improvise in ITM. The tunes were there before anyone decided that the techniques learnt in jazz, classical, blue grass or whatever over the last few decades may "sound good". The fashion if you like these days is to blend and be original with everything, from fusion to roots to improvisation in ITM. Why can't ITM be amazing and fantastic without all the f*&king around or "jazzing it up". But hey there are a lot of people out there these days playing music for the gratification of themselves and to make it in the big world. Those that play it because they love it and hold true to the tunes (with variations that are true to the tradition) will go on playing in great sessions.......now they are the GREAT musicians...not some jumped up improvising fraud.
Re Tommy Potts: he looked upon his 'improvisations' as developments of what was there. He made use key changes and would be including inserts of little phrases borrowed from classical jazz and popular music, among other things. I would not really class what he did as improvisation because a lot of what he did was deliberately thought out before hand and developed over time. Reading Michael O Suilleabheann's writings about the man will shed more light on the what is going on in his (Potts') music.
I think a lot of the argument here is about different people's definintions of the words "improvisation".
I don't think anyone would argue against Irish players who have a solid command of the style to vary tunes as they see fit. All the great players do this and always have done this. Many players, if told to play the one-and-only "correct" version of a tune, would be hard-pressed to do so. This crops up in printed Irish traditional music- what set of notes do you put down on the white page? No matter which version you choose, you are shackling, limiting, cageing the tune. No tune can be properly revealed in 32 bars of written music. Likewise, if a player is asked to play a tune through once only, what he is playing is only a portion of the tune's totality.
However, this has nothing to do with "jazzing up" Irish music, or jazz-style improvisation, which is trying to shove a foreign sytle and approach into a place it doesn't fit. I personally hate to hear people "jazz up" Irish music. The music is more interesting to me the way it is.
The quote to end this silly debate comes from the Oxford University Press Music Encyclopedia -
"Ornamentation also represents a form of improvisation; here the player or singer embellishes a given line, often quite freely, to enhance its expression and to show his or her inventiveness and brilliance."
So if you spontaneously add rolls, cuts, crans etc., you are improvising. If you don't do this then you are not playing Irish music as it is meant to be played.
Improvisation within certain limits is one of the foundations of Irish music, don't be afraid of the word improvisation it does not exclusively refer to jazz.
Check this page for a full explaination of improvisation in music
On the ball frisbee.
Maybe I'll start with the Kesh and move on gradually to a Parker transcription.
Where are you Bradley?
You usually intervene at about this point with a counter punch.
I won't say what is entirely on mind,I'm just gonna let this one go
Frankie Gavin plays the same tune, with LOTS more variations.
But it is the same tune, absolutely. That's the sort of "improvisation" that is the heart and soul of Irish trad, and what makes playing it properly such a challenge. And why you can't learn it from sheet music, or by freestye improv (i.e., making up melodies as you go).
embellishment is a form of melodic improvisation.
there has been alot of squit talked on this thread,about traditional jazz,and about CharlieParker,
traditional jazz musicians such asBunkJohnson,used very little improvisation,even melodic.
in the end there are no rules ,people will do what they like.
>This is done by people who really can't play and merely want to join
I see this a lot and it p*sses me off to no end. And why do these people always have to play more than their share of breaks? If they would just put the damn thing down and listen for once, they might actually remember a melody or two.
>the blatant inclusion of swing and jazz feels, which was so popular in the late nineties
I'm with you there. So many American players deafly strum everything with that same lame back beat and dominate any hope of alternative rhythmic feels. The complete opposite feel is what is compelling to me. Somehow without following the rules of blues/jazz these tunes still have more than their share of "bounce" and melodies that are so finely crafted they don't need any backing at all to draw you in.
I can understand how a lousy improviser can twist everything you like about a style into something you'd rather never hear twice. I think abuse form people that shouldn't be attempting this in public has soured the concept for a lot of "traditional" players.
I run into the same thing form the old-time/contradance crowd. There is a notion that people can't dance to it if you don't keep playing the melody over and over again. I've never understood where that came from, because every dance step I was ever taught was "counted" out, not sung. I personally get irritated hearing the same thing played played over and over, as if the musicians aren't capable of altering the notes for fear of making mistakes. After reading the posts here, I think I understand things a bit better now. I think that it's not a reaction to the improvisation, it's a reaction to mediocrity.
“Improvisation is the practice of acting and reacting, of making and creating, in the moment and in response to the stimulus of one's immediate environment. This can result in the invention of new thought patterns, new practices, new structures or symbols, and/or new ways to act. This invention cycle occurs most effectively when the practitioner has a thorough intuitive or technical understanding of the necessary skills and concerns within the improvised domain.”
Playing a variation of a tune that you’ve played before is NOT improv.
Playing the same ornaments you always do each time is NOT improv.
Creating a brand new variation or ornament on the fly IS improv.
Improv is a new, off the cuff, top of your head, brand spanking new creation made instantly.
Sorry, I have a buddy who plays with a prog-rock-funk band. He drags me along to their parties once in a while to jam with them. Why they want a fiddle player I have no idea, but they have great beer...among other things. Ahem.
Now those guys? They improvise for hours on end, all brand new, all off the top of their heads. Improv.
I've sat this one out long enough. What would y'all call the tour de force performance of "The Mason's Apron" as played by Matt Malloy with regard to improvisation?
I was told by someone who spent some time playing with and hanging out with Matt Molloy that he spends a lot of time crafting his arrangements of tunes. They are in no way improvised on the spot according to this person.
Now, just yesterday I broached this subject with some professional jazz musicians (yes they make a good living playing jazz) and they said that only a relatively small proportion of their solos are improvised on the spot. They said that their solos will include riffs that they have heard other jazz players do, riffs that they themselves have developed in pratice, riffs that they came up with spontaneously in an earlier performance that they sometimes reuse later, etc. They are NOT coming up with entirely new musical material when they solo. If fact one guy mentioned the danger of going "out on a limb" and having to find a way back. But, he said, "there's always a way back". He said that when the chips are down many jazz players "play it safe" and use familiar riffs in their solos.
Now I have four or five recordings of Paddy Keenan playing the same hornpipe at various venues: two pub concerts and two stage concerts at least. He plays the same variations each time, but never in exactly the same order. He's drawing from a vocabulary of variations, he is NOT making them up on the spot.
Earlier today I came up with 17 different ways of playing the first two bars of the simple jig Sean Bui in about five minutes. By using these in various combinations, I could play that tune for an hour without any two performances being identical. And that's just varying the first two bars. I think I'm going to start a variation thread so that people who don't already know, will see how variation in an Irish tune works.
Oh, about the Mason's Apron, it's not just Matt Molloy. On the Highland pipes they play four to eight parts and I heard Cathal McConnel play an extended version 20 years ago.
Richard’s description of the process of tune variation rings true for me – as a description, not a prescription. Adept players can pull it off because they’ve played *lots* of tunes and internalized (not mechanically memorized) the little one-bar idiomatic expressions that let them speak the tune a little differently each time. It would be a very sterile project to just memorize a collection of those expressions and then Lego them together into a tune.
So,,,ehhhhh,,,,,,,who owns Irish music these days?
Micheal Jackson?
Or did McCartney buy it back?
I also did penance for over improv on a well known reel,when I was drunk(I won't mention the name of it,coz some may get offended)
I apologise to the entire traditional community,and I promise I'll never induldge in such ludicrousness as long as I'm sober again.
I'll also be teaching at the Frankie Kennedy winter school this yr,if anyone is interested in the undermining destruction of our untampered with,million yr old tradition,
Bad-um ,,,,Tish!
I lead a double life,but I know my pigeon holes at this stage.
No,I probably won't be teaching any jazz this year.......
I'm severely hung over,so I'm going back to sleep,
(Micheal Jackson used to own the rites to the Beatles recordings,he outbid Paul McCartney,hard dung boy)
Improvisation in trad
Improvisation in trad
So,....... Is there room in the tradition for melodic improvisation?
I notice some of my fav players do, but I wont cite names.
How would one go about this?
Melodic improvisation is an integral part of many musical styles.
In what way could it be considered legitimate in ITM?
# Posted on October 12th 2007 by jig
Re: Improvisation in trad
"Variation" rather than improvisation. If anyone who isn't listening carefully notices, you've gone too far.
# Posted on October 12th 2007 by TomB-R
Re: Improvisation in trad
Depends on what you mean by "improvisation". If you mean it is the jazz sense, that someone makes up an entirely new melody based on the chord structure, that is out of place in Irish traditional music. I've heard non-Irish players sit in on a session and try to do this, and it sounds terrible.
Now, if you mean the art of variation, that is very much a part of Irish traditional music. The guy I originally learned Irish music from said "it's better to learn 20 ways to play one tune, than to learn 20 tunes." And that's how I learned. First I learned a bunch of different ways (probably not actually 20) of how to play McLeod's Reel, then a bunch of ways of playing Old Hag You Have Killed Me, and so on. He would teach me a tune, then say "Now you know the tune. Now it's time to f**k with it" by which he meant learn a lot of different ways to play the same tune. So, from the beginning I learned the flexibility, the plasiticity of Irish music. That an Irish tune is not one specific string of notes, but a notion that can be expressed in a limitless number of ways. On tunes I know well, I would have a difficult time playing them the same way twice. Only tunes I've just learned are played the same way every time, just because I haven't had time to explore them.
# Posted on October 12th 2007 by Richard D Cook
Re: Improvisation in trad
Yeah heya, whoa there jig, you looking for a wind-up? You know we got some feisty characters on here!
Variation, ornamentation, not improvisation, is what I've gleaned. That's probably what you're hearing.
# Posted on October 12th 2007 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Improvisation in trad
Some players have the ability to completely rearrange all the notes in a tune, yet still play the same tune. Others, with nothing more than subtle variations in accent and phrasing, can make it sound like another tune altogether.
# Posted on October 12th 2007 by ragaman
Re: Improvisation in trad
Rearranging all the notes in a tune? My problem is in getting them in the right order in the first place!
# Posted on October 12th 2007 by lazyhound
Re: Improvisation in trad
When I saw the title of this thread I instantly thought of trad jazz, and not trad Irish music. I wonder why?
# Posted on October 12th 2007 by lazyhound
Re: Improvisation in trad
I think it's great when a backer is playing around with the tune and complementing it with counterpoint and some improvisation, but if you mean melody players messing around over other melody players then the tune gets clouded and it doesn't work.
# Posted on October 12th 2007 by ecidralla
Re: Improvisation in trad
JIG do what you want... the most important thing is to have fun.
most people on here have gripes about improvising. they just probably can't do it well.
Keep playing what you want and listening to it carefully and you will naturally become a better player.
anyone who thinks theres no place for improvisation in sessions is plain wrong.
# Posted on October 12th 2007 by szifty
Re: Improvisation in trad
Are you playing the tune or are you improvising? Can you do both? I don't think so, but that's just MHO.
We get a Bluegrass fiddler stop by our sessions once in a while and he improvs all over the place. Is he playing the tune? No. Does he know the tune? No. He's improvising, and that's not playing the tune. He does know some of the tunes, and he plays them with us. He doesn't improvise on those.
Yes, have fun, if it's your session, improv away.
However, when you go to other sessions you may find folks wondering what you're doing if you're not playing the tunes with them.
When/if the Bluegrass guy comes back and does it again, I may very well ask him (if he’s driving us nuts again) to please play the tunes he knows and to not play those he doesn’t.
# Posted on October 12th 2007 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Improvisation in trad
I wouldn't do this among strangers, and wouldn't go beyond some simple improvised harmonies and countermelodies. Too much, and the music loses its identity and starts becoming something else. We had a drunk young man who showed up once with a whistle and proceeded to noodle at high volume in the upper register, someone finally told him to knock it off, he thought he was at a "jam session," which is an entirely different thing, where improvisation is the way things work.
# Posted on October 12th 2007 by AlBrown
Re: Improvisation in trad
Variation of a tune on the spot is improvisation, as such ALL the great trad players did/do improvise.
Tommy Potts has been described as an improvisational composer in the way he took tunes and really explored their possibilities through improvisation.
Would such improvisation work in a session, probably not, but highly developed variation improvisation can work well in a session if it is a good player listeining to everything going on around them.
If you listen closely to Atlan, when they play they are all constantly improvising variations and this can create spontatneous harmony and counterpoint. This to me is what group playing in trad is all about, not 30 people playing the exact same notes over and over, that has nothing to do with ITM.
Fundamentally ITM is a soloists tradition where the soloist is expected to spontaneously vary (improvise with) the tune in a skillful and tasteful way.
If you're not talking about tune variation though and are just talking about jazz style improvisations over chord changes then of course that's not going to work in a session, but it does occasionally work well in ensemble arrangements to break up tune sets and while it's not exactly 'traditional' it could be seen as a development of the art of tune variation. There are some players who do this but they tend to always refer to a particular tune whilst doing such improv.
# Posted on October 12th 2007 by Worldwide Pants
Re: Improvisation in trad
I think the difference might be summed up as "improvising bits of a tune" in Irish, compared to "improvising on a theme" in jazz. In Irish, the basic tune still has to be there - and if you're playing with other melody players, your improvisation has to work alongside the original as well.
It's true that you hear some of the great players who play a tune, and you can recognize the tune, but very few of the notes are the same ones that you might play. There's a real art to that, and I think it is probably harder than improvising in jazz, which seems much more open to interpretation.
This is a wonderful part of the tradition, and one that I am just recently starting to experience in my own playing. For me, the trick was to let go of "THE notes", and stop worrying about whether I played the "right note" at any given place. If you think about the shape of the tune, and where it is going, you can find different ways to get there. I am looking forward to that unending journey of exploring the tunes! It's the most fun you can have with your clothes on!
Pete
# Posted on October 12th 2007 by Reverend
Ask Mozart, Gershwin, Pickettywitch, Phillip Glass, Schoenenberg, McCartney, Rolf Harris and Dr. Dre.
Hello! (in the voice of Leslie Phillips)
Without improvization there are no new tunes.
When one writes a tune, one is improvizing, n'es-ce pas?
Ask Mozart, Gershwin, Pickettywitch, Phillip Glass, Schoenenberg, McCartney, Rolf Harris and Dr. Dre, innit?
# Posted on October 12th 2007 by yhaalhouse
Re: Improvisation in trad
Wait, you mean we're supposed to wear ***clothes*** while we play this music?!?!
Geez, I wish someone would explain all these nitty gritty details ***before*** I go out and play in sessions....
# Posted on October 12th 2007 by Will CPT
Re: Improvisation in trad
Now THERE'S a thread hijack I hadn't thought of
# Posted on October 12th 2007 by Reverend
Re: Improvisation in trad
Understandably. It's ***not*** a pretty picture.
# Posted on October 12th 2007 by Will CPT
Re: Improvisation in trad
Improvising to me means something other than the tune.
If what you have done is no longer recognizable as the tune, then you've failed, haven't you? You have not communicated the tune to another musician.
If it is, no matter what you're done to it, then you've succeeded.
Obviously if you're writing then you're improvising as you're creating something new, not varying or ornamenting something already in existence, or creating a new variation or ornament of something already in existence, on the fly, which is also creation or writing, regardless of what you call it.
Sure, I do strange things to tunes every time I play, either from adjusting what I'm playing to match someone else, or I'm in the lead and who knows what the heck I'm thinking, but again, if the tune has not been communicated, I (or the current tune leader) have failed.
# Posted on October 12th 2007 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Improvisation in trad
IMPROVISATION WORKS ... oops, caps lock.. eh works very well with slow airs I find. well it worked for me in a fleadh once. yerman thought twas a great variation!!
# Posted on October 12th 2007 by person
Re: Improvisation in trad
Basically, this music is built on the tune. Jazz etc. is built on a chord sequence.
# Posted on October 12th 2007 by TomB-R
Re: Improvisation in trad
Rev, I got Buster Bodhran on the phone asking about a 'session in the bordello'? I think all this "lack of clothing" talk got his attention? I don't, I told him you'd get back to him. He left a rambling voice mail.
# Posted on October 12th 2007 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Improvisation in trad
I think that when it comes to questions like this, people react based on experience. What you suggest is difficult at best, but if one can do it well, no one is going to complain. On a very few tunes, I have played a counterpoint or a drone to the approval of the group. However, I do not possess the skill to actually improvise within the structure of the tune while others are playing the straight melody, so I don't attempt it. Hopefully, if you attempt it, you will have the musical chops to know if it is not working before someone needs to tell you.
If you had asked a thousand people if flute could be a lead instrument in rock music, probably only one would have said yes, and that one would probably have been Ian Anderson.
Moral of the story: Rules are meant to be broken, but keep your wits about you.
# Posted on October 12th 2007 by Ailin
Re: Improvisation in trad
This discussion may be dying already, but I think it might be useful to add some detail.
To my mind, going flying off into a harmony line, not "the tune" is only acceptable in defined circumstances.
The kind of thing that is acceptable to my mind is,
- a triplet instead of a roll, and vice versa.
- dotted crotchet + quaver instead of four quavers.
(dotted quarter note + eighth note instead of four eighth notes.)
- Going the other way from "home" to "home" within half a bar, ie replacing one of the passing notes with something probably a third away
Etc.
# Posted on October 12th 2007 by TomB-R
Re: Improvisation in trad
Whether you are improvising, embellishing or tossing in a few harmony bits, or playing it straight, you still need to know the tune and work within the framework of the melody. Anything else is a clusterF%4# and a detriment to the session.
# Posted on October 12th 2007 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: Improvisation in trad
You could do worse than have a look at the improvisation in ITM ? thread, from an alternative viewpoint but it answered my question and will answer yours jig
# Posted on October 12th 2007 by tony b
Re: Improvisation in trad
Just listen to Cormac Breatnach's playing and it will answer the query of this thread. In my opinion, he is the only trad player I've heard who has succeeded in blending the improvisational elements of jazz with ITM. He seems to know exactly where the edges are and he seamlessly puts them together. He’s a genius.
# Posted on October 12th 2007 by Phantom Button
Re: Improvisation in trad
ok, well i was talking about say ; the space between two phrases of a tune. I am just, now 25 yrs later, finding i know a tune well enough to keep the bones in mind and improvising´a phrase then returning to the tune..As it is improvised i wouldn't really repeat myself. I presume i would be extemporizing on the bones of the tunes rather than introducing new motifs. It is an unconscious thing, i think....... I know nothing about jazz,i have been aITM player since my teens. Flamenco would spring to mind as another improvised yet traditional style.. Or perhaps a lead solo from a rock player,still referring to the tune melody.
Anyhow, interesting comments,thanks.
# Posted on October 12th 2007 by jig
Re: Improvisation in trad
I must counter chadmills' point that 'Basically, this music [ITM] is built on the tune. Jazz etc. is built on a chord sequence.'.
This might be true of some elements of jazz music, but not all. Charlie Parker, for instance, was a musician whose improvisation was almost entirely based upon imaginative extensions of a melodic line. That was also true of Miles Davis in his bebop days, but certainly not so from the late 1950s onwards - his work on 'Sketches of Spain', for instance, might be interpreted as painting a canvas, rather than wondering who was supplying the colours and brushes. Some of his albums, such as the 'Jack Johnson' soundtrack and Live/Evil rely on very few chord changes in the individual tunes and these are often a long distance from each other.
Trad jazz is largely based upon chordal sequence, but this certainly did not apply to 'modern jazz' musicians such as Sun Ra, Albert Ayler or Cecil Taylor.
# Posted on October 12th 2007 by Floss the Tethers
Re: Improvisation in trad
I don't think you need to search that hard for folks who can improvise in trad music. I just listened to an Eileen Ivers CD where she tears through Crock of Gold and Julia Delaney with all sorts of tension building phrases and notes outside the structure of the actual melody line. Brilliant - but in a solo instrument setting.
# Posted on October 12th 2007 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: Improvisation in trad
I think there is a fear here which typifies the general uptightness and reticence prevalent in the majority of people who try to play this music. There is such a fear of not getting it right that the freedom to really feel the music is constricted.
Some one above talked of the plasticity of it. Good that, That's a good word to describe it.
Someone else said something about you are either playing the tune or not. When you appreciate the plasticity, you realise how redundent that statement is.
# Posted on October 13th 2007 by llig leahcim
Re: Improvisation in trad
Just to add to MacCruiskeen's comments about jazz improvisation. I think all good jazz improvisers consider their improvisations to be variations of the main theme. The great Irish Jazz Guitarist Louis Stewart once said that when he's improvising he constantly thinks of the tune, his improv is a response to the melody. This isn't much different to what great trad players do, the jazzers just do variations on a larger scale.
# Posted on October 13th 2007 by Worldwide Pants
Re: Improvisation in trad
and might i add, I'm shocked to admit again that I agree with llig leahcim wholeheartedly!
# Posted on October 13th 2007 by Worldwide Pants
Re: Improvisation in trad
Just listen to John Carty's fiddle and tenor banjo recordings if you want to hear some brilliant improvisations which don't violate the basic integrity of the tune.
I've been playing the fiddle for thirty years and some of the warhorse tunes, such as Miss McCloud's Reel, The Silver Spear, and The Kid On the Mountain, would bore me silly if I stuck to the main melody. I play mostly with younger players who tend to stick to the melody; many play from sheet music. I have a repertoire of variations which don't clash with "straight" playing and I'm always coming up with new ones.
But then I live in a small town (Hannibal, Missouri) and the few musicians here have to put with each other's eccentricities!
# Posted on October 13th 2007 by Layers
Re: Improvisation in trad
just reading what szfity wrote...obviously you have no idea about irish traditional music to come out with such a rediculus statement! Irish traditional music has no room for "improvisation" what so ever! People who believe that they can improvise in a traditional genre are kidding themselves one into thinking that anything that sounds good goes, that two they think they can play that traditional genre of music, three can't really play anyway and are probably from the old folky scene that perpetuates sh*t players and sh*t versions of tunes just because they lack the talent or the perception or ability to actually listen to the music. It is one of the most blatant insults to any traditional music form or genre to think that you can play around with it to the point that it departs from what it actually was. Variations are a totally different discussion and should not even be likened or thought of in the same light as improvisation. Call me old fasion if you like, but i hold true to the traditional genre that i play....don't f*&k around with it!
# Posted on October 13th 2007 by tombo
Re: Improvisation in trad
well tombo, what is traditional? we have no record of players performance from the 19c and earlier. So i have to take your opinions with a pinch of salt so to speak.
You have criteria you consider to be trad, but to say someone like E Ivers cant play trad ,and she improvises, is simply incorrect. good luck with your music.
# Posted on October 13th 2007 by jig
Re: Improvisation in trad
'we have no record of players performance from the 19c'
We in fact do, Dinny Delaney, Mici Cumba, George McCarthy (the one that was one the £50 note), Jem Byrne, Patsy Touhey, Wm Hanafin, James Early, John McFadden, Edward Cronin, Bernard Delaney all have their playing firmly rooted in the 19th century and records of their music exist, among those of a good few others.
# Posted on October 13th 2007 by kilfarboy
Re: Improvisation in trad
I always remember a very sobering moment while attending a
jazz summer school in my early twenties when this high profile
American drummer came into the room , listened attentively to what we were doing as a quartet, and then said, " I haven't heard anyone playing the melody yet!". We all looked at the ground. We were just following the chords."
Any good playing to me is based on being able to hear what you play before you play it, not chord surfing. I reckon improvising in Irish music is within a framework pretty much.
Like Frankie does it. It is two steps more understated than the early Loius Armstrong New Orleans street jazz that they didn't stray too far away from the melody. But the underlying theme to me has to be an attempt at varying the melody , where you are in control before, during and after you're doing it.
Its also a humourous thing, and I believe its pretty instrument specific, for example I reckon banjo and box players get away with it a lot better than fiddle players and whistle players. (Can
someone lend me a can opener for these worms?)
Personally at my humble level I find it sounds great when done well , but I'm struggling to play the tune straight as it is at this stage anyway in a session.
# Posted on October 13th 2007 by chuneboi slim
Re: Improvisation in trad
Regarding the "plasticity" of ITM, and the ability of good traditional players to play a tune in such a way that they never repeat it exactly the same, I came up with a theory about how traditional players learn and perform traditional tunes, reels in particular. That theory is that traditional players don't look at a reel as a particular string of specific notes, but as a collection of traditional motifs. There are a large number of these stock motifs, each with a certain rythm and a certain harmonic feel. These motifs exists in groups or families, each familiy consisting of a number of motifs which are interchangable. This really struck me when I met a certain great player who, upon hearing any particular reel for the first time, could immediately play it back. What she played back was not the same linear set of notes, but was equivalent, and if fact was a more interesting version of my tune than the one I had played to her. It dawned on me that rather than a specific set of notes she was conceptualising the tune as:
(G reel motif-family #4) +
(G reel motif-family #6) +
(D reel motif-family #3) etc.
A simple example of this in action is the beginning of the 2nd part of the slip jig Kid On The Mountain. You could play:
9/8 BGB AF#A G2D (if I understand ABC rightly)
but you could also play:
BGG AF#F# G2D with taps seperating. Or:
BBB AAA G2D using long rolls. Or:
BBG AAF# G2D using short rolls. Or:
BDD ADD GDD hammering down to bottom D's.
Now, are these jazz-style improvisatons? Absolutely not. Or are they variations dreamed up on the spot? Not at all. I am simply drawing from various members of the relevant motif-families. One could be called "G jig motif-family #1" which consists of:
BBB, BGB. GGB, BGG, BDD and probably many others if I thought about it for a while. Now, in any jig, where I'm on a G chord and the melody is implying one of these "family members", I can use ANY of the other family members just as well. In fact, I don't even have any sort of concept that one particular choice is any more the "real tune" than any other. The "tune" calls for a member of that motif-family to be played at that spot, it doesn't matter which member, as they are all analogous.
# Posted on October 13th 2007 by Richard D Cook
Re: Improvisation in trad
This could be a revelation for me Richard. Thank you.
# Posted on October 13th 2007 by chuneboi slim
Re: Improvisation in trad
Ahem. Any trad tune has slight variations in the melody (regional inflections, aural translation from memory, etc) which do not violate the integrity of the tune. An adept accompanist can (and most often will) improvise without disrupting the melody line, by adding shifting musical colours in the background. Key words: "adept" and "background".
# Posted on October 13th 2007 by drone
Re: Improvisation in trad
Richard, what you are espousing is very very dangerous indeed, You are saying that you don't need to learn the turns of a tune, just their shapes. I really really cannot disagree more. Your approach condems the music to repetitious mediocrity. Sure, mess with the turns, but very very importantly, learn them right first.
# Posted on October 13th 2007 by llig leahcim
Re: Improvisation in trad
But Llig, doesn't that take us full circle back to previous discussions about what "the Right Version" of a tune is?
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/14809/comments
# Posted on October 13th 2007 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: Improvisation in trad
Any comments on the playing of Tommy Potts?
At the end of the day music is up to yourself what you do with it.
There is no hierarchy needed to justify ones playing ,and if you need the approval of others to say wether or not you can play Irish music then you're only stunting your own growth and possibly others in their progress as a musician.
I know many great players,and alot of them improvise including myself.
So I guess Cathal Hayden ,John Carthy or Frankie Gavin can't play traditional music...
P
# Posted on October 13th 2007 by P.browne
Re: Improvisation in trad
You are entitled to your opinion Jig, though you really have no clue if you think that it is alright to improvise in any traditional music. Sure we don't have any recordings from before the 19c, but if you listen to the traditional players from ireland and go even that one step further talk to about improvisation I will bet you will get the answer that you learn the tune then you can apply variations to it.....THERE IS NO PLACE IN ITM FOR IMPROVISATION WHAT SO EVER. You are deluded to think there is! It always seems to me that the people that fall back on improvisation are those that really can't play and want to join in, or are too bloody lazy to understand a traditional music genre more deeply. Oh by the way E Ivers is not a traditional player.
# Posted on October 13th 2007 by tombo
Re: Improvisation in trad
tombo, your lingo is pretty set in stone on this one. Pray tell, what's the difference between variation and improvisation?
# Posted on October 13th 2007 by llig leahcim
Re: Improvisation in trad
I didn't mean to say I was great though.
I should look at my sentences before I submit them,
P
# Posted on October 13th 2007 by P.browne
Re: Improvisation in trad
I think the infectious spirit of the music is what brought us all to it in the first place, isn't it? Listen to Cathal Hayden in full flight... you recognize the tune, don't you? (you just can't play along with him) I think it still might be ITM...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gx8lRx7BTTA&mode
So. Learn the tune WELL first. Then, if you're feeling virtuostic, and won't bum out your playmates, go for it. They might even enjoy the ride.
# Posted on October 13th 2007 by drone
Re: Improvisation in trad
So,Tombo,Johnny Doran didn't improvise?????????
Improvisation is variation.
Jazz musicians usually have a vocabulary of licks etc that they
play over certain chord changes in a structured fashion,in the same way we have tunes in ITM,just like a tune,improvisation is also composition sped up.
I play both.
And,there is room for everyone in music.
Anyone who makes such absolute statements and believes them is seriously living in the dark,or at least far away from what actually goes down in this genre.
If you play your music the exact same way every time,it gets boring,but that's up to you,coz you have a right to do that too.
P
# Posted on October 13th 2007 by P.browne
Re: Improvisation in trad
Totally agree with you david and to llig variation is what ITM muscians use to vary the way the tune is played everytime round, it does not depart from the tune and always ensures that the melody stays intact and true to itself. People claim that John Carty and others improvise which is wrong, they are just true ITM musicians that understand the tunes and are playing variations that keep the tradition a live and constant in time. Improvisation is a blantant disregard for the music that departs from the true melody of the tune and in no way compliments it. It is useful technique for music suchas jazz and bluegrass but has no place in ITM. I hold to my observations and knowledge that people who improvise in ITM can't play and are using it as a crutch for their inadequacies.
# Posted on October 13th 2007 by tombo
Re: Improvisation in trad
totally agree with tombo !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
# Posted on October 13th 2007 by tony b
Re: Improvisation in trad
The way I see it, and the way all the people I play with see it is pretty straight forward. If you can't feck about with it, what's the point. I'm perfectly willing to accept the existence of a whole separate tribe who refuse to feck about with it.
However, when this tribe can come out with such stuff as, "It is one of the most blatant insults to any traditional music form or genre to think that you can play around with it to the point that it departs from what it actually was", it's worth pointing out to them that all traditional musics undergo continuous change.
(Though before that other tribe shoots me down completely in flames, I have to reiterate that falling back on improvisation is not something I espouse. This is done by people who really can't play and merely want to join in and are too bloody lazy to understand the genre more deeply.)
# Posted on October 13th 2007 by llig leahcim
Re: Improvisation in trad
A variation that is not planned has to be improvised.
How else would it happen?
The improvisation that works in ITM is usually very brief,so as not to divert to much from the main melody.
A planned variation is not improvisation.
A distinction has to be made and the universal term is improvisation,unless there is another,,,,
Tommy Potts used to improvise at length,and it worked.
Would anyone like to disagree with that?
Or are you even aware of his music?
Tombo,your observations are coming from a very narrow viewpoint,no offence.
I play both jazz and traditional and have been involved in a wide variety of musical situations.
I improvise.
Am I crap?
P
# Posted on October 13th 2007 by P.browne
Re: Improvisation in trad
As far a I know they weren't the same every time.
He was shunned for it at the time though,
In my opinion he was a genius,
P
# Posted on October 13th 2007 by P.browne
Re: Improvisation in trad
P. browne. I agree with everything except the bit about Jazz
musicians playing "licks" over chord changes. It wouldn't be long before you ran out of licks.
To all the Tories in this discussion, I don't think there's any real danger of sessions being overrun by rampant improvisers. If you where that into improvising, you would be an " improviser" and Irish music would be the last place you would park your butt.
Having said that I think all traditions are and have been subject to influences historically and have always remained in a state of flux.
Cheap stylising of the music (and I don't want to sound mean )
like the blatant inclusion of swing and jazz feels, which was so popular in the late nineties, sounded pretty good at the time, but I find listening to a lot of that stuff now, it sounds a bit throwaway. What has survived? The tunes of course.
I think the tradition would be shaped in future by much more
clever, subtle innovations, such as improvised variation.
Now let's face it, you're not going to survive on a bandstand
with a Trad Jazz band if you can't at least play the head of
"Do you know what it means to miss new orleans" through the first time with the rest of the guys or gals. The same applies
to Irish Music. The bad taste dudes eventually fall by the
wayside but the subtle, clever ones can change things forever.
This is an observation only. I am not good enough yet to
participate in the manipulation of a tradition.
# Posted on October 13th 2007 by chuneboi slim
Re: Improvisation in trad
they usually have hundreds of them,like trad players have tunes.
Only a rare few don't use them.
I've studied jazz and have had the opertunity to play with some great players.
And some jazzers do run out of them.
# Posted on October 14th 2007 by P.browne
Re: Improvisation in trad
sorry "opportunity"
# Posted on October 14th 2007 by P.browne
Re: Improvisation in trad
Yes, P. Browne, there would be licks to fall back on in a time of
random cowardice, but most of the people I know try to come up with something new everytime, otherwise, what's the point?
Do you think Bill Evans (the Piano one that is, ) just played licks, I doubt whether he ever even played one. What about Django, no doubt he played everything spontaneously, and on the rare occasion he did play a lick, he was probably taking the p*ss.
Improvisation is playing your own ideas spontaneously by ear,
sorry, I've studied it too and been in the right place at the right time, a few times, to be called up on stage to help out some people I never even thought I'd be sharing a beer with let alone a standard.
# Posted on October 14th 2007 by chuneboi slim
Re: Improvisation in trad
P.browne yes i maybe narrow minded in the eyes of those that play other music and think that it is cool to dabble in things like jazz and folky stuff....i mean if you don't these days you're not cool are you, you have to be out there..you know be able to improvise and make comment on all sorts of music! I don't give a flying f*&k whether you have studied jazz or african kazoo music, it just means that you probably don't truely understand ITM. It never ceases to amaze me how there are so many people that play ITM and think that they can improvise if they don't know a tune...... Get over you're fasination with other music forms and techniques when you play ITM, it is a tradition that was amazing before the likes of jazz etc enthusiasts came across it. It is pure arrogance to think that you are contributing something to the tradition if all you are doing is willy nilly improvising with the tune, get over yourselves and leave the improvisation for jazz etc!!!
Why don't you go out and the others that call us tories and learn the tunes, play the tunes the way they are ment to be played and that means variations as well (that do not leave the melody behind) and then come back and make comment about those that say that there is no place for improvisation in ITM. I never said that you had to play tunes exeactly the same every time or that the tradition can't change, i just maintain that to improvise in Irish Traditional music has no place, never has and never will.
# Posted on October 14th 2007 by tombo
Re: Improvisation in trad
oh and yes i have heard Tommy Potts P.browne..... And????
# Posted on October 14th 2007 by tombo
Re: Improvisation in trad
I am sorry for the tone of the last two posts, everyone is entitled to their opinion but i feel very strongly about ITM and I have played in many a session where some moron has decided that they can play ITM and go on to improvise the whole time. The tradition always moves and changes, there is no dispute about that. But there are certain things that are always constant and boundaries that should not be crossed and one is not to improvise in ITM. The tunes were there before anyone decided that the techniques learnt in jazz, classical, blue grass or whatever over the last few decades may "sound good". The fashion if you like these days is to blend and be original with everything, from fusion to roots to improvisation in ITM. Why can't ITM be amazing and fantastic without all the f*&king around or "jazzing it up". But hey there are a lot of people out there these days playing music for the gratification of themselves and to make it in the big world. Those that play it because they love it and hold true to the tunes (with variations that are true to the tradition) will go on playing in great sessions.......now they are the GREAT musicians...not some jumped up improvising fraud.
# Posted on October 14th 2007 by tombo
Re: Improvisation in trad
Re Tommy Potts: he looked upon his 'improvisations' as developments of what was there. He made use key changes and would be including inserts of little phrases borrowed from classical jazz and popular music, among other things. I would not really class what he did as improvisation because a lot of what he did was deliberately thought out before hand and developed over time. Reading Michael O Suilleabheann's writings about the man will shed more light on the what is going on in his (Potts') music.
# Posted on October 14th 2007 by kilfarboy
Re: Improvisation in trad
I think a lot of the argument here is about different people's definintions of the words "improvisation".
I don't think anyone would argue against Irish players who have a solid command of the style to vary tunes as they see fit. All the great players do this and always have done this. Many players, if told to play the one-and-only "correct" version of a tune, would be hard-pressed to do so. This crops up in printed Irish traditional music- what set of notes do you put down on the white page? No matter which version you choose, you are shackling, limiting, cageing the tune. No tune can be properly revealed in 32 bars of written music. Likewise, if a player is asked to play a tune through once only, what he is playing is only a portion of the tune's totality.
However, this has nothing to do with "jazzing up" Irish music, or jazz-style improvisation, which is trying to shove a foreign sytle and approach into a place it doesn't fit. I personally hate to hear people "jazz up" Irish music. The music is more interesting to me the way it is.
# Posted on October 14th 2007 by Richard D Cook
Re: Improvisation in trad
The quote to end this silly debate comes from the Oxford University Press Music Encyclopedia -
"Ornamentation also represents a form of improvisation; here the player or singer embellishes a given line, often quite freely, to enhance its expression and to show his or her inventiveness and brilliance."
So if you spontaneously add rolls, cuts, crans etc., you are improvising. If you don't do this then you are not playing Irish music as it is meant to be played.
Improvisation within certain limits is one of the foundations of Irish music, don't be afraid of the word improvisation it does not exclusively refer to jazz.
Check this page for a full explaination of improvisation in music
http://www.answers.com/topic/improvisation
# Posted on October 14th 2007 by Worldwide Pants
Re: Improvisation in trad
On the ball frisbee.
Maybe I'll start with the Kesh and move on gradually to a Parker transcription.
Where are you Bradley?
You usually intervene at about this point with a counter punch.
I won't say what is entirely on mind,I'm just gonna let this one go
bye for now,
Peter
# Posted on October 14th 2007 by P.browne
Re: Improvisation in trad
So, variation is a form of improvisation. Hands up all those who play the same little variations every time they play the tune.
Hey, I don't care really! Honest, doc!
# Posted on October 14th 2007 by Steve Shaw
Re: Improvisation in trad
Try this. Go to:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio2/r2music/folk/sessions/
and listen to the recording of The Foxhunter Reel while you read the sheet music--not precisely the same notes everywhere, right? Now, go to:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b1EU4ipTkRg
Frankie Gavin plays the same tune, with LOTS more variations.
But it is the same tune, absolutely. That's the sort of "improvisation" that is the heart and soul of Irish trad, and what makes playing it properly such a challenge. And why you can't learn it from sheet music, or by freestye improv (i.e., making up melodies as you go).
# Posted on October 15th 2007 by mickray
Re: Improvisation in trad
that's "freestyle" improv--my bad.
# Posted on October 15th 2007 by mickray
Re: Improvisation in trad
embellishment is a form of melodic improvisation.
there has been alot of squit talked on this thread,about traditional jazz,and about CharlieParker,
traditional jazz musicians such asBunkJohnson,used very little improvisation,even melodic.
in the end there are no rules ,people will do what they like.
# Posted on October 15th 2007 by dickens metrognome
Re: Improvisation in trad
>This is done by people who really can't play and merely want to join
I see this a lot and it p*sses me off to no end. And why do these people always have to play more than their share of breaks? If they would just put the damn thing down and listen for once, they might actually remember a melody or two.
>the blatant inclusion of swing and jazz feels, which was so popular in the late nineties
I'm with you there. So many American players deafly strum everything with that same lame back beat and dominate any hope of alternative rhythmic feels. The complete opposite feel is what is compelling to me. Somehow without following the rules of blues/jazz these tunes still have more than their share of "bounce" and melodies that are so finely crafted they don't need any backing at all to draw you in.
I can understand how a lousy improviser can twist everything you like about a style into something you'd rather never hear twice. I think abuse form people that shouldn't be attempting this in public has soured the concept for a lot of "traditional" players.
I run into the same thing form the old-time/contradance crowd. There is a notion that people can't dance to it if you don't keep playing the melody over and over again. I've never understood where that came from, because every dance step I was ever taught was "counted" out, not sung. I personally get irritated hearing the same thing played played over and over, as if the musicians aren't capable of altering the notes for fear of making mistakes. After reading the posts here, I think I understand things a bit better now. I think that it's not a reaction to the improvisation, it's a reaction to mediocrity.
# Posted on October 15th 2007 by monkey440
Re: Improvisation in trad
Hey mickray, I kinda like "freestye." Like a free-range sore. Reminds me of the roaming mole on Frau Blucher's face in Young Frankenstein.
# Posted on October 15th 2007 by Will CPT
Re: Improvisation in trad
(Damn...how do you make a smiley emoticon with a mole?)
# Posted on October 15th 2007 by Will CPT
Re: Improvisation in trad
“Improvisation is the practice of acting and reacting, of making and creating, in the moment and in response to the stimulus of one's immediate environment. This can result in the invention of new thought patterns, new practices, new structures or symbols, and/or new ways to act. This invention cycle occurs most effectively when the practitioner has a thorough intuitive or technical understanding of the necessary skills and concerns within the improvised domain.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Improvisation
NEW NEW NEW.
Playing a variation of a tune that you’ve played before is NOT improv.
Playing the same ornaments you always do each time is NOT improv.
Creating a brand new variation or ornament on the fly IS improv.
Improv is a new, off the cuff, top of your head, brand spanking new creation made instantly.
Sorry, I have a buddy who plays with a prog-rock-funk band. He drags me along to their parties once in a while to jam with them. Why they want a fiddle player I have no idea, but they have great beer...among other things. Ahem.
Now those guys? They improvise for hours on end, all brand new, all off the top of their heads. Improv.
# Posted on October 15th 2007 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Improvisation in trad
"Good night, Herr Doctor."
"Good night, Frau Blucher."
http://www.ladyofthecake.com/mel/frank/sounds/goodnite2.wav
# Posted on October 15th 2007 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Improvisation in trad
I've sat this one out long enough. What would y'all call the tour de force performance of "The Mason's Apron" as played by Matt Malloy with regard to improvisation?
Juuuust curious.
# Posted on October 16th 2007 by Ailin
Re: Improvisation in trad
It's good. I just thought it was a four-part version of the tune. I'm thinking of learning Molloy's improvisations off by heart.
# Posted on October 16th 2007 by Steve Shaw
Re: Improvisation in trad
I was told by someone who spent some time playing with and hanging out with Matt Molloy that he spends a lot of time crafting his arrangements of tunes. They are in no way improvised on the spot according to this person.
Now, just yesterday I broached this subject with some professional jazz musicians (yes they make a good living playing jazz) and they said that only a relatively small proportion of their solos are improvised on the spot. They said that their solos will include riffs that they have heard other jazz players do, riffs that they themselves have developed in pratice, riffs that they came up with spontaneously in an earlier performance that they sometimes reuse later, etc. They are NOT coming up with entirely new musical material when they solo. If fact one guy mentioned the danger of going "out on a limb" and having to find a way back. But, he said, "there's always a way back". He said that when the chips are down many jazz players "play it safe" and use familiar riffs in their solos.
Now I have four or five recordings of Paddy Keenan playing the same hornpipe at various venues: two pub concerts and two stage concerts at least. He plays the same variations each time, but never in exactly the same order. He's drawing from a vocabulary of variations, he is NOT making them up on the spot.
Earlier today I came up with 17 different ways of playing the first two bars of the simple jig Sean Bui in about five minutes. By using these in various combinations, I could play that tune for an hour without any two performances being identical. And that's just varying the first two bars. I think I'm going to start a variation thread so that people who don't already know, will see how variation in an Irish tune works.
Oh, about the Mason's Apron, it's not just Matt Molloy. On the Highland pipes they play four to eight parts and I heard Cathal McConnel play an extended version 20 years ago.
# Posted on October 16th 2007 by Richard D Cook
Re: Improvisation in trad
Richard’s description of the process of tune variation rings true for me – as a description, not a prescription. Adept players can pull it off because they’ve played *lots* of tunes and internalized (not mechanically memorized) the little one-bar idiomatic expressions that let them speak the tune a little differently each time. It would be a very sterile project to just memorize a collection of those expressions and then Lego them together into a tune.
# Posted on October 16th 2007 by Bob himself
Re: Improvisation in trad
i think two axioms apply here:
1) there's no right way, but lots of wrong ways
and
2) leave the foughkan jazz to the beatles.
# Posted on October 17th 2007 by lunchblaze
Re: Improvisation in trad
So the Beatles were a jazz group? News to me.
# Posted on October 17th 2007 by Richard D Cook
Re: Improvisation in trad
So,,,ehhhhh,,,,,,,who owns Irish music these days?
Micheal Jackson?
Or did McCartney buy it back?
I also did penance for over improv on a well known reel,when I was drunk(I won't mention the name of it,coz some may get offended)
I apologise to the entire traditional community,and I promise I'll never induldge in such ludicrousness as long as I'm sober again.
I'll also be teaching at the Frankie Kennedy winter school this yr,if anyone is interested in the undermining destruction of our untampered with,million yr old tradition,
yours repentantly,
P
# Posted on October 17th 2007 by P.browne
Re: Improvisation in trad
Sorry,that's maybe a little stabby wabby.......
# Posted on October 17th 2007 by P.browne
Re: Improvisation in trad
foughkan jazz played by beatles under michael jackson? Is that unscripted kiddie porn where everyone wears beatles masks?
P - there's always a home for you in the non-traditional community if you vow to never play another sober note. Unless that was a percussion improv...
# Posted on October 17th 2007 by monkey440
Re: Improvisation in trad
Bad-um ,,,,Tish!
I lead a double life,but I know my pigeon holes at this stage.
No,I probably won't be teaching any jazz this year.......
I'm severely hung over,so I'm going back to sleep,
(Micheal Jackson used to own the rites to the Beatles recordings,he outbid Paul McCartney,hard dung boy)
# Posted on October 18th 2007 by P.browne