Hello All.
I have an opportunity to present an evening or two on
traditional music to a group of people who having been listening
to classical music together for a couple of years. They have
decided to branch out and asked if I would do something for them.
I'd be grateful for some help from the session members on setting up the content of the evenings. Suggestions of things I shouldn't miss etc. Identification of critical periods, people, tunes ? that you think would illustrate how ITM has both developed and/or stayed the same. A central theme would be to illustrate Zina's idea that "The tradition has to change slowly to still be traditional".
I love the music and doing this project will go some way to rectifying my lack of depth it it's history.
Some ideas: Ties to baroque music (gigues, other dances etc.)
O'Carolan's music..influenced by Vivaldi ?
Morrison/Coleman recordings from the 20s/30s.
Other recordings from 40s/50s/60s (help !)
Changes in instrumentation.(Introduction of guitar, bazouki etc.)Lots of current music to choose from.
Regional styles.
ITM around the world.
I thought to wind up with some Martin Hayes/Dennis Cahill, Liz Carroll (pushing too close to Jazz in some people's) opinion and some of today's more progressive traditional groups.
Don't forget some sean nos singing - it's the most ancient element of the music and it's what slow airs come from. (Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, I'm not a scholar...)
I'm not an expert either, but I've always thought the development of this music was in support of, or at least highly connected to, traditional dance. Does dancing represent an important distinction in contrasting this traditional music with classical music?
Hi Bob - All the above I agree with, but you've missed out a big lump right in the middle ---- you went from Carolan to Coleman and missed out the nineteenth century!
That was a period when the instruments now used in sessions were being introduced or consolidated. It's also the period that is immortalised in O'Niell's, as, I'm certain that all the usual suspects, jigs, reels, hornpipes, and so on, were being played long before then, but a 'snapshot' of late nineteenth century Irish popular tunes is embedded therein.
Also, mid-C19 was the Great Famine, and the monstrously long shadow which that cast, particularly wrt ballads (for your context.)
How are you going to do this gig - illustrate it by you and some mates playing, or by recordings? I know what I'd prefer to do, but going by what you've said before, other sessionny-people are not common near you, so playing solo in front of a bunch of classical heads could be a bit scary.
Maybe both - show them the best on record, then show them technique and how our stuff differs from the big C by practical demo.
I know it's hard to edit in/out stuff you consider important for a 1-hour (or whatever) lecture, but if you need to swot up there's some good literature out there:
I have a John Doherty album that rocks my world. Someone taped it for me so I'm sadly light on details (like the name of the album), but it's just him on the fiddle peppered with little bits of conversation (some in gaelic). Try to get it. (Can somebody tell Bob more details about this recording?) In an academic sense, it would be interesting to take the same tune from a few different recordings. One major difference between ITM and anything a classical group would be familiar with is the fact the tunes are anything but fixed. A tune played by Martin Hayes is not the same tune as a tune played by Tommy Peoples (even if it's the same tune, get my drift?) The dots are almost irrelevant. I dunno. I think maybe classical buffs might find that interesting. A tune recorded in 1962 is not the same as the same tune recorded in 1995. Classical composers generally didn't leave a lot of room for interpretation. Trad composers generally didn't even bother to write the things down.
Helen.. Can you suggest some sean nos recordings ?. I might have heard some but not been aware of it as a separate class of singing.
dfost..I think that there has always been a dancing component to classical music, esp. the early music and that what we have today as traditional music is the branch of that which stayed with the folk so to speak instead of going to the salon or concert hall. Many people today play traditional music (which is really dance music) but never play for a dance or dance themselves. I think that's a shame since playing for people to dance to is one of the great pleasures.
Danny..the "Tape" will definitely be played. The 18th century was one area in which I was hoping for some guidence. Iain Fraser has nice album with a cello player("Touchwood" is the album name) which they say is in the style the music was played in the scottish houses of the time.
I'm off too see if the library has any of the books you recommend. It will be recordings i'm afraid.
My wife wants to go to breakfast.. more later.
Well, I don't think there is any agreement on the precise definition of Sean Nos... but it is traditionally unaccompanied, lyrical, melodic, and often in rather free time, with ornamentation of some kind, depending on the style. Joe Heaney was one of the most highly rated traditional singers, and it is quite easy to come across his recordings. If you can find a recording of Mairead Ni Mhaonaigh unaccompanied, she's a lovely singer of sean nos, mostly in Irish. Paddy Tunney is my own favourite - he sang in English - but that doesn't stop it being sean nos. Do you have any recordings which would fit the bill?
I wouldn't agree that classical composers don't leave a lot of room for interpretation. Ok, when you're playing classical music you don't alter the dots (much!), but if you've ever worked under a good orchestral conductor who knows what he's doing you'll realise that the scope for interpretation is virtually infinite - tempo, dynamics, phrasing, tone colours, balance, ornaments. Even intonation - only yesterday, in a dress rehearsal, the conductor of Bristol Concert Orchestra got us cellists to make a clear distinction between a low G-flat and F-#, and it made all the difference to the sonority of a particular phrase in that concert hall. You've only to listen to a few recordings, or live performances, of a piece of classical music by different performers to see that the differences in performances can be startling.
Also, many classical musicians, especially orchestral players, often have had exposure to, and hands-on experience of folk music and other non-classical musical genres.
I think all this should be in one's mind when addressing an audience of classical music buffs.
Helen - a real pleasure to meet you today, and to hear you sing. Two Sean Nos (is it pronounced shan-noash {un-diphthonged}?) singers I can think of are Se
Hi f.on v. I'll look for the John Doherty album when I'm in Victoria next week. At least we're blessed with some good music stores in this area. I wasn't so lucky with Danny's book suggestions however. There are none in the library system in the whole Vancouver area. I might have to break down and buy them. I thought for a moment (before I checked my bank account) that I could just fly in the london contingent of the session (Danny, Helen, Trevor, you too bigdave) and we'd have a fine evening. Trevor.. I think one of the other evenings being worked up will center on the same pieces of music played by different orchestras so your comments are right on the money. Helen..I'll look for some cds by the people you mention. I've got 2.5 hrs per evening so it doesn't have to be too compressed Danny..and there's lots of time for chat. The evenings have their own peculiar craic. BTW. we had Danu playing here last night..Too good for words.
Danny - that's it. Celebrated Recordings. No accounting for taste I guess. I only have 10 CDs IN my collection, so I guess it has to be in there by default. I mention it here because of the absence of classical violin technique in Docherty's playing. The lines these days are getting blurry, and a whole lot of pros (like Martin Hayes for example) seem to have a good dollop of classical technique in their playing.
Trevor, I wasn't saying two orchestras sound exactly the same when they play Beethoven's 5th, just that you can always tell it's Beethoven's 5th, and that you aren't likely to find 25 completely different notations of it while searching on the web, none of which resemble the way you heard it on your Chieftains album, which doesn't resemble the way your buddy Karly played it last Tuesday. (Or are you? I wouldn't know.) I think I hit a nerve somehow, no? Not intended. I know there are lots of classical players playing ITM and other folky stuff. Not only is it fun but it's also a good way to make a bit of pocket money to supplement the millions they can make in an orchestra.
ITM appreciation evenings.
ITM appreciation evenings.
Hello All.
I have an opportunity to present an evening or two on
traditional music to a group of people who having been listening
to classical music together for a couple of years. They have
decided to branch out and asked if I would do something for them.
I'd be grateful for some help from the session members on setting up the content of the evenings. Suggestions of things I shouldn't miss etc. Identification of critical periods, people, tunes ? that you think would illustrate how ITM has both developed and/or stayed the same. A central theme would be to illustrate Zina's idea that "The tradition has to change slowly to still be traditional".
I love the music and doing this project will go some way to rectifying my lack of depth it it's history.
Some ideas: Ties to baroque music (gigues, other dances etc.)
O'Carolan's music..influenced by Vivaldi ?
Morrison/Coleman recordings from the 20s/30s.
Other recordings from 40s/50s/60s (help !)
Changes in instrumentation.(Introduction of guitar, bazouki etc.)Lots of current music to choose from.
Regional styles.
ITM around the world.
I thought to wind up with some Martin Hayes/Dennis Cahill, Liz Carroll (pushing too close to Jazz in some people's) opinion and some of today's more progressive traditional groups.
Ideas please !
Thanks
Bob
# Posted on March 28th 2003 by bmcivor
Re: ITM appreciation evenings.
Don't forget some sean nos singing - it's the most ancient element of the music and it's what slow airs come from. (Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, I'm not a scholar...)
# Posted on March 28th 2003 by Nell
Is dancing a difference?
I'm not an expert either, but I've always thought the development of this music was in support of, or at least highly connected to, traditional dance. Does dancing represent an important distinction in contrasting this traditional music with classical music?
# Posted on March 28th 2003 by dfost
Re: ITM appreciation evenings.
Definitely set dancing. Most tunes were written to be danced to.
# Posted on March 28th 2003 by Trevor Jennings
Re: ITM appreciation evenings.
Hi Bob - All the above I agree with, but you've missed out a big lump right in the middle ---- you went from Carolan to Coleman and missed out the nineteenth century!
That was a period when the instruments now used in sessions were being introduced or consolidated. It's also the period that is immortalised in O'Niell's, as, I'm certain that all the usual suspects, jigs, reels, hornpipes, and so on, were being played long before then, but a 'snapshot' of late nineteenth century Irish popular tunes is embedded therein.
Also, mid-C19 was the Great Famine, and the monstrously long shadow which that cast, particularly wrt ballads (for your context.)
How are you going to do this gig - illustrate it by you and some mates playing, or by recordings? I know what I'd prefer to do, but going by what you've said before, other sessionny-people are not common near you, so playing solo in front of a bunch of classical heads could be a bit scary.
Maybe both - show them the best on record, then show them technique and how our stuff differs from the big C by practical demo.
I know it's hard to edit in/out stuff you consider important for a 1-hour (or whatever) lecture, but if you need to swot up there's some good literature out there:
Folk Music and Dances of Ireland - Breand
# Posted on March 28th 2003 by Rudall the time
Re: ITM appreciation evenings.
I have a John Doherty album that rocks my world. Someone taped it for me so I'm sadly light on details (like the name of the album), but it's just him on the fiddle peppered with little bits of conversation (some in gaelic). Try to get it. (Can somebody tell Bob more details about this recording?) In an academic sense, it would be interesting to take the same tune from a few different recordings. One major difference between ITM and anything a classical group would be familiar with is the fact the tunes are anything but fixed. A tune played by Martin Hayes is not the same tune as a tune played by Tommy Peoples (even if it's the same tune, get my drift?) The dots are almost irrelevant. I dunno. I think maybe classical buffs might find that interesting. A tune recorded in 1962 is not the same as the same tune recorded in 1995. Classical composers generally didn't leave a lot of room for interpretation. Trad composers generally didn't even bother to write the things down.
# Posted on March 28th 2003 by Kerri Brown
Re: ITM appreciation evenings.
It may also be interesting to point out that, unlike classical music, written scores are rarely used in the playing of traditional music.
# Posted on March 29th 2003 by dfost
Re: ITM appreciation evenings.
Helen.. Can you suggest some sean nos recordings ?. I might have heard some but not been aware of it as a separate class of singing.
dfost..I think that there has always been a dancing component to classical music, esp. the early music and that what we have today as traditional music is the branch of that which stayed with the folk so to speak instead of going to the salon or concert hall. Many people today play traditional music (which is really dance music) but never play for a dance or dance themselves. I think that's a shame since playing for people to dance to is one of the great pleasures.
Danny..the "Tape" will definitely be played. The 18th century was one area in which I was hoping for some guidence. Iain Fraser has nice album with a cello player("Touchwood" is the album name) which they say is in the style the music was played in the scottish houses of the time.
I'm off too see if the library has any of the books you recommend. It will be recordings i'm afraid.
My wife wants to go to breakfast.. more later.
thanks
Bob
# Posted on March 29th 2003 by bmcivor
Re: ITM appreciation evenings.
Well, I don't think there is any agreement on the precise definition of Sean Nos... but it is traditionally unaccompanied, lyrical, melodic, and often in rather free time, with ornamentation of some kind, depending on the style. Joe Heaney was one of the most highly rated traditional singers, and it is quite easy to come across his recordings. If you can find a recording of Mairead Ni Mhaonaigh unaccompanied, she's a lovely singer of sean nos, mostly in Irish. Paddy Tunney is my own favourite - he sang in English - but that doesn't stop it being sean nos. Do you have any recordings which would fit the bill?
# Posted on March 29th 2003 by Nell
Re: ITM appreciation evenings.
I wouldn't agree that classical composers don't leave a lot of room for interpretation. Ok, when you're playing classical music you don't alter the dots (much!), but if you've ever worked under a good orchestral conductor who knows what he's doing you'll realise that the scope for interpretation is virtually infinite - tempo, dynamics, phrasing, tone colours, balance, ornaments. Even intonation - only yesterday, in a dress rehearsal, the conductor of Bristol Concert Orchestra got us cellists to make a clear distinction between a low G-flat and F-#, and it made all the difference to the sonority of a particular phrase in that concert hall. You've only to listen to a few recordings, or live performances, of a piece of classical music by different performers to see that the differences in performances can be startling.
Also, many classical musicians, especially orchestral players, often have had exposure to, and hands-on experience of folk music and other non-classical musical genres.
I think all this should be in one's mind when addressing an audience of classical music buffs.
# Posted on March 30th 2003 by Trevor Jennings
Re: ITM appreciation evenings.
good orchestral conductors,Trevor? oh,too much,too much -that's a good one,that is.
but that's how i like my oxymorons - with a laugh!!
# Posted on March 30th 2003 by biggus dave
Re: ITM appreciation evenings.
Helen - a real pleasure to meet you today, and to hear you sing. Two Sean Nos (is it pronounced shan-noash {un-diphthonged}?) singers I can think of are Se
# Posted on March 30th 2003 by Rudall the time
Re: ITM appreciation evenings.
Hi f.on v. I'll look for the John Doherty album when I'm in Victoria next week. At least we're blessed with some good music stores in this area. I wasn't so lucky with Danny's book suggestions however. There are none in the library system in the whole Vancouver area. I might have to break down and buy them. I thought for a moment (before I checked my bank account) that I could just fly in the london contingent of the session (Danny, Helen, Trevor, you too bigdave) and we'd have a fine evening. Trevor.. I think one of the other evenings being worked up will center on the same pieces of music played by different orchestras so your comments are right on the money. Helen..I'll look for some cds by the people you mention. I've got 2.5 hrs per evening so it doesn't have to be too compressed Danny..and there's lots of time for chat. The evenings have their own peculiar craic. BTW. we had Danu playing here last night..Too good for words.
Bob
# Posted on March 30th 2003 by bmcivor
Re: ITM appreciation evenings.
Danny - that's it. Celebrated Recordings. No accounting for taste I guess. I only have 10 CDs IN my collection, so I guess it has to be in there by default. I mention it here because of the absence of classical violin technique in Docherty's playing. The lines these days are getting blurry, and a whole lot of pros (like Martin Hayes for example) seem to have a good dollop of classical technique in their playing.
Trevor, I wasn't saying two orchestras sound exactly the same when they play Beethoven's 5th, just that you can always tell it's Beethoven's 5th, and that you aren't likely to find 25 completely different notations of it while searching on the web, none of which resemble the way you heard it on your Chieftains album, which doesn't resemble the way your buddy Karly played it last Tuesday. (Or are you? I wouldn't know.) I think I hit a nerve somehow, no? Not intended. I know there are lots of classical players playing ITM and other folky stuff. Not only is it fun but it's also a good way to make a bit of pocket money to supplement the millions they can make in an orchestra.
# Posted on March 30th 2003 by Kerri Brown