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Any thoughts on starting tunes at session for the starter-challenged?
Any thoughts on starting tunes at session for the starter-challenged?
What comments do you all have about improving ones ability to think of tunes to start at sessions? I know plenty and can jump in. I can sometimes think of tune names, but not how they go. Is it an innate ability to start them effortlessly or is there something I might be able to learn?
Re: Any thoughts on starting tunes at session for the starter-challenged?
Bunratty, why get stressed -is there a requirement in your session that you start tunes? It's usually okay to leave it to the other folks if you don't feel comfortable with it.
Re: Any thoughts on starting tunes at session for the starter-challenged?
Yeahbut Michael, reason #1 covers a multitude of sub-reasons.
You might feel you have to because it's been half an hour since the last set was played, for example.
You might have to cos you're on the payroll.
You might feel you have to because someone asked you to start a set and it would be rude to refuse.
And so on and so on.
So your oversimplification is not that simple.
Re: Any thoughts on starting tunes at session for the starter-challenged?
BTW bunratty, to answer your question,
>Is it an innate ability to start them effortlessly or is there something I might be able to learn?
I've found it's a skill that can be learned. Maybe the biggest thing for a newer player is keeping hold of the tune as you try and hang onto it while feeling nervous and self-conscious. Just close your eyes and concentrate on the tune, not who's listening.
Re: Any thoughts on starting tunes at session for the starter-challenged?
I realize what I am about to say may get mocked by the esteemed constabulary of this board, but before I began my journey into ITM, I played in many rock, pop, and country bands for years. I always had a set list for every gig we did. That same concept served me well when I started playing trad. I learned a few sets, kept a list, and when an experienced player encouraged me to kick something off, I always had a few pre-planned sets at the ready. I feel it kills the session flow when someone is asked to start something, and they sit there for endless minutes saying "Um, gee, what do I want to play....?" (It's like waiting behind the kid in line at the fast food place for 30 minutes, who when reaching the cashier, still hasn't decided what they want to order) At any rate - once you get a more tunes set to memory, spontaneity will come easily, and starting tunes will no longer be an issue. However, like Grego says - there is no rule saying you have to kick off tunes. If you are not comfortable, just say "I'll pass for now, thanks..."
Re: Any thoughts on starting tunes at session for the starter-challenged?
Just because you like a particular tiune doesn't mean you have to start a set. You can lean over to the nearest prolific player and say "do you know how The Humors of Whatever starts?"
Re: Any thoughts on starting tunes at session for the starter-challenged?
Three: To bend the session to your will
i.e you don't know or like the tunes already played and you want to "take over" or change the dynamics to suit yourself.
Piano accordions are good at this.........
Not a move I'd recommend or approve but many seem to do (or try to) it!!
Re: Any thoughts on starting tunes at session for the starter-challenged?
Frankly, I love it when a good player starts a set with a tune they love and know intimately, even if they know nobody else can play it. I could care less if people think they are "showing off." It inspires me to learn the tune and be a better player. Additionally, as Johnny J points out so well, I have noticed that great players follow up their "special" tune with a set of inclusive tunes that spreads the joy around the room. To be honest, I think the whole "showing off" argument is a bunch of hooey. If you love a tune and know it well - play it. Let the insecure crowd worry about your "real intentions."
Re: Any thoughts on starting tunes at session for the starter-challenged?
If you're a stranger to a session there's the possibility that one of the regulars will say something along the lines of "have ye got a tune for us, then?". So be prepared. This seems to apply particularly if you're in Ireland, because it's happened at every session I've been to there - and, expecting it, I was prepared.
Otherwise, I'm usually quite happy to let others kick off with the tunes.
Just seen JNE's post come up on the screen. I agree with every word.
Re: Any thoughts on starting tunes at session for the starter-challenged?
bunratty, this is a skill that takes practice - and the only way to really practice it is to do it.
As Eejit mentioned, having a few sets that you can start at a moment's notice is useful (That Eejit sure isn't living up to his name!). But if you take it a step further, you can have a number of individual tunes that you can start, no matter what. That way, you can not only start them in a pre-determined set, but if someone looks at you in the middle of a set and says "can you get us into The Road to Whereverville?", you can nod your head and pull it off.
The more you do that, the better you will get at it. And don't worry - it's a common occurrence to try to get into a different tune, only to crash and burn... Just laugh it off and keep going - it's not important! (It's not like it's a paid performance, right?)
As I have mentioned numerous times, I have some sort of subconscious mnemonic device that attaches the first phrase of a tune (kinesthetically) to the name of the tune. So people often look at me and ask if I can start a particular tune in the middle of a set. It's a handy skill to work on!
Re: Any thoughts on starting tunes at session for the starter-challenged?
Oh... Well I can start *that* one, heck I think I taught it to you! It's the one that goes dum diddle diddle deedle dum...
For me, learning how to talk while I'm playing was much harder than learning how to start tunes...
And nowadays, I LIKE starting tunes, because then we get to play them with the rhythm that I have in MY head instead of the one that somebody else has...
Re: Any thoughts on starting tunes at session for the starter-challenged?
Ahh, cross-post, Steve.
Yeah, same as I was saying... When you start a set, you get to play it the way you want, that includes tempo, rhythm, setting, etc. (At least, most good, courteous sessions will not speed your tune up, or change things too much...)
Re: Any thoughts on starting tunes at session for the starter-challenged?
I'm curious to know what people's definition of "showing off" is then - playing a fiddle reel at warp speed, whilst juggling a few pint glasses like an Ed Sullivan show bear, and step dancing with a Flattley-esque Flair? or is it something more subtle...?
Re: Any thoughts on starting tunes at session for the starter-challenged?
Another reason for starting off a set -- and a very good one IMHO -- is you can determine the speed of the set. If it's heartbreakingly sluggish, you can inject much needed pace - but probably most likely - if it's too fast to savour the tunes or just too fast for you to hang on -- you can start a set at a civilised pace.
Re: Any thoughts on starting tunes at session for the starter-challenged?
I think I usually only remember the first 3-5 notes of a tune, and expect the rest of it to take care of itself once I get into it. (Or, at least, the first 3-5 notes are the only ones that I mnemonically attach to the name of the tune).
That generally works until I run into something that starts just like another tune or something. And then you just have to remember the first couple of notes and then the pivotal note where the similar tunes diverge...
If you know the tune well enough to play it, then you really only have to remember the first few notes to be able to start it in a session.
Re: Any thoughts on starting tunes at session for the starter-challenged?
Never heard of that. If you only remember the first 3-5 notes of a tune you don't know the tune.
Knowing the tune to me means being able to lead it with or without anyone joining in (in which case it isn't leading - it's playing - cos you know it.)
I don't think that's showing off either. You go to sessions to play tunes. Because you carry them around with you in your consciuos mind the rest of the week, and then playing them out at a session is the catharsis of that.
Re: Any thoughts on starting tunes at session for the starter-challenged?
Oh, don't get me wrong... I'm not saying that I don't know the whole tune!!! But for me, the ability to start tunes on the fly comes from remembering how they start. Once I'm in to the tune, I know the whole tune.
My point was that the "subconscious mnemonic device" that I use to remember how tunes starts only includes the first couple of notes.
That's handy, because it's *difficult* to think how a tune goes while you're in the middle of playing another tune! But if you've memorized the first few notes, you can get started...
Re: Any thoughts on starting tunes at session for the starter-challenged?
Yeah, that's another kind of mnemonic device! We use that kind of stuff all the time when teaching tunes at our tune learning session... It's the "bibbity bobbity boo" thing, or it ends with the "M O U S E" ending, etc.
Re: Any thoughts on starting tunes at session for the starter-challenged?
I can only start a set if I refer to my list of sets in advance. Othrwise everything will come out The Boys of Blue Hill.
If I think there's a chance of being asked to kick off, I will be ready to go. If I choose to play a set because nothing is going on, I will be able to pick something I think is suitable for the occasion.
"He who fails to plan, plans to fail".
Re: Any thoughts on starting tunes at session for the starter-challenged?
Doesn't that sort of take some of the fun out of it oldstrings?
Spontaneity is part of what makes sessions enjoyable for me. If you can only start the same sets, or sets that you've pre-planned, I think you might be missing out on some of the fun.
Do you strive to be able to start other tunes and sets? Or are you happy to be with where you are?
Re: Any thoughts on starting tunes at session for the starter-challenged?
BTW, oldstrings, in re-reading my last post, it might seem that I'm trying to belittle you or something, and that's not the case at all! I am curious to know your answer. Different people have different things that they want out of playing music...
Re: Any thoughts on starting tunes at session for the starter-challenged?
By the way Rev, don't know if you are a baseball fan, but congrats on your Rockies scrambling their way into the playoffs - too bad they are only destined to have their hearts broken down here in AZ later on...;-]
Re: Any thoughts on starting tunes at session for the starter-challenged?
I know it's a slight hijack, but as a couple of people responded to what I said I'd like to make a related point. As I'm not Otto Klemperer I have trouble getting the tempo just right if I start a set, but give me three or four bars on my own and I can find it. Unfortunately, by then the others have all waded in and joined me in the "wrong" tempo, and it's too late then to do anything about it. I've been trying to persuade the other chaps to let the set-starter find his tempo before joining in. Anyone got any wrinkles on this?
Re: Any thoughts on starting tunes at session for the starter-challenged?
Steve, I think there's a difference to be pointed out here between starting a new set and starting a tune - if you're already in a set, then you shouldn't generally change tempo going into a new tune.
I know a lot of players that start a tune, and then speed up as they "find the groove". I do that on occasion myself. But when I do it, I try to get it up to the speed by the time other players are ready to join in. Or at least, if they know it's happening, they'll cue onto matching me as the tempo changes. The more you play with people, the better you get to know each other, and it can be done seamlessly.
Re: Any thoughts on starting tunes at session for the starter-challenged?
That's a good one rev. And Steve, give it a go. I often never really know what pace I want to play a set until after I've started. So I start just a couple of notes, then a bar and a half maybe, a pause, and then settle on a pace. It's impossible for anyone to join in until I'm settled. Works fine.
Re: Any thoughts on starting tunes at session for the starter-challenged?
Kicking off a tune in any group setting is mostly poise and attitude. If you are set up mentally, everything else will fall into place on its own. Failing that you could try setting the tempo in your head, as in silently count off a bar before you make any noise. If you can't manage the counting, then hum the first couple of bars in your head in the tempo you're going to play to set the tempo.
The late Jester Hairston (pretty far removed from ITM, but quite a musical figure) taught me his secret for setting up a tempo ahead of time and/or finding a tempo when a lot of arrhythmic noise is in your way - tap it out in your toes because "no one can see your toes moving in your shoes".
Re: Any thoughts on starting tunes at session for the starter-challenged?
To clear it up, Pete, I wasn't suggesting changing tempo within a set (anathema in my view, even if the tempo's all to cock), but just getting it "right" at the very start. Anyway, great advice from you and Ben and Michael which I will endeavour to put into practice at The Tree tomorrow. Cheers!
Re: Any thoughts on starting tunes at session for the starter-challenged?
Thanks to all who have provided suggestions (and to the rest of you for your... er..wit. Actually, my question was a real one. I just don't seem to have tunes in my head at the session..be it nervousness or whatever. Part of it might be that at our session people are actively learning new tunes and its a bit intimidating to play one that perhaps was played a lot at some time. Neverthe less I'd like to be able to start tunes, set , whatever in order to contribute more to the session. So far aside from bringing a list with the first few abc I can't do it (and I'm not new to session playing)
Re: Any thoughts on starting tunes at session for the starter-challenged?
Relaxation is key, bunratty. It helps if you're comfortable with the people you're playing with.
I got asked to start sets at a number of sessions during a recent trip to Ireland, and I think I flubbed up about half of them, because I was playing with a bunch of people I had never played with before. That was a bit of a surprise to me, because I don't have any problems starting things at any of the sessions I go to, or even when I'm visiting friends' sessions in other parts of the country.
I have noticed that when I start something, and it's not going well, and that just makes me think about it more, which makes it worse, I close my eyes, relax, and let myself get into the tune, since I generally don't start things that I can't play well.
But use the tricks listed above to see how it helps. To recap:
* preplan your sets
* have a few at your disposal so you aren't put on the spot
* memorize the first phrase of a tune, so that you can get into it at any time
* ask someone else if they know the tunes before you start so you have some backup
* start out at your comfortable pace, not necessarily the pace everything else has been played at
* start slowly, and work your way up to the groove
And I'll add one more at the risk of starting yet another flame war. Try "noodling" a bit of the tune quietly before you start, that way you can make sure you remember how it goes, and other people might pick up on it and be there to back you up...
If it's just a question of not being able to think of tunes to play while you're sitting in a session, then by all means, write yourself a little cheat sheet of things that you've worked on that week, so you can remember to play them if you get a chance.
Re: Any thoughts on starting tunes at session for the starter-challenged?
It's also a damned fine idea to practise the changeovers from one tune to the next in your sets till you're blue in the face. I don't really recognise the word "practise," but this really does pay off - you'll avoid many a train wreck if you can do your changeovers confidently!
Re: Any thoughts on starting tunes at session for the starter-challenged?
Reverend, my point about preparation matches the first point in your last post! "Preplan your sets".
Because my short-term memory is not what it used to be, and because the first tune which comes to mind may not be what I really want to play, I pick my sets in advance in order to contribute more positively to the session's progress.
I certainly agree with your views on spontaneity, but being spontaneous will lead me to the same old tunes. By planning my sets, I get to play what I really want to play. I have several sets ready to go, and decide at the time which will fit in best.
Re: Any thoughts on starting tunes at session for the starter-challenged?
No the best at this, but starting to tap your foot well before starting playing can help lock in a speed before you are joined by the rush. Also, supplying a very rhythmic first few notes means people will recognise the speed you are playing at more easily and not join in too fast. I try to shut my ears to others first notes so as not to be swayed.
Regarding knowing what to play, practise a set or two as a single entity, and the changes will take care of themselves. Later when you are less fearful of leading you can wing it...
Personally, when leading a set, I'd like a way to remember how many times through the tune has been played so I know when to change. I always know its the first time, and I know the second time, but by the third time I can't remember whether its the second or third.
Re: Any thoughts on starting tunes at session for the starter-challenged?
Some people seem to get nervous starting a set because of the prospect of playing alone until everyone else dials in. A guy I know often asks me to start a tune that he wants to play, but I invariably start it at a tempo that he wouldn't choose (well, if you're going to hand over the power...) One way we get around this is to lilt a bit of the tune that is suggested; names often escape us anyway. And then count it in out loud so that a bunch of us can start at once.
As for pre-planning sets, ours is a small session and the regular members all have different tastes and backgrounds with the tunes, so it helps us all a bit because we're not really at the point where we can read each others minds yet for tunes on the fly, and our repertoires aren't all the same anyway.
Oldstrings, I haven't heard you start Boys of Blue Hill for a long time, so I think your method seems to work fine.
I'm glad, because I really don't like that tune.
Mike
Re: Any thoughts on starting tunes at session for the starter-challenged?
oldstrings, I appreciate the idea of preplanning some sets so that you can play things that might be out of the ordinary. And yes, I included that as an idea for how to get better at it. But it's just that, a tool. If you rely too heavily on it, you'll never progress beyond it.
One thing that llig said a while back stuck with me. And I quote directly "Just get to a state where you can let tunes gently bubble to the surface, conjured by the subconscious massages of the tunes other people are playing. That's what it's about"
I agree with that. It's a neat feeling when you're in the middle of a set that you started, you have no idea what you're going to play next, and instead of forcing the issue or stressing about it, you just relax, until a tune slides into your head which works out wonderfully! If you don't get the inspiration, you can always just say "once more, lads" on the previous tune.
This is something that does happen for me, but not as often as I would like. So it is something that I strive for. And I put myself in that position all the time on purpose - starting a set without having any clue what else I'm going to play...
Re: Any thoughts on starting tunes at session for the starter-challenged?
..or play The Kesh. Everybody knows that and will start yawning with boredom so you'll end up playing it on your own. Good practice for starting a solo career.
Any thoughts on starting tunes at session for the starter-challenged?
Any thoughts on starting tunes at session for the starter-challenged?
What comments do you all have about improving ones ability to think of tunes to start at sessions? I know plenty and can jump in. I can sometimes think of tune names, but not how they go. Is it an innate ability to start them effortlessly or is there something I might be able to learn?
# Posted on October 4th 2007 by Acacia
Re: Any thoughts on starting tunes at session for the starter-challenged?
Bunratty, why get stressed -is there a requirement in your session that you start tunes? It's usually okay to leave it to the other folks if you don't feel comfortable with it.
# Posted on October 4th 2007 by grego
Re: Any thoughts on starting tunes at session for the starter-challenged?
Here's one I hear quite a lot from diffident sessioneers:
http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/2399
# Posted on October 4th 2007 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: Any thoughts on starting tunes at session for the starter-challenged?
Lol
Nice joke
)
# Posted on October 4th 2007 by RoLuPiN
Re: Any thoughts on starting tunes at session for the starter-challenged?
There are only two reasons why you should start a set.
One: 'cause you have to.
Two: So you can show off.
If you can't tick either oif these, don't start sets. Let others do it
# Posted on October 4th 2007 by llig leahcim
Re: Any thoughts on starting tunes at session for the starter-challenged?
Three: because you like a particular tune.
# Posted on October 4th 2007 by Tonya
Re: Any thoughts on starting tunes at session for the starter-challenged?
Yeahbut Michael, reason #1 covers a multitude of sub-reasons.
You might feel you have to because it's been half an hour since the last set was played, for example.
You might have to cos you're on the payroll.
You might feel you have to because someone asked you to start a set and it would be rude to refuse.
And so on and so on.
So your oversimplification is not that simple.
# Posted on October 4th 2007 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: Any thoughts on starting tunes at session for the starter-challenged?
Four: the previous set was 4'33"
# Posted on October 4th 2007 by Tonya
Re: Any thoughts on starting tunes at session for the starter-challenged?
yep, all of the above are in the "'cause you have to". Including because you like a particular tune.
# Posted on October 4th 2007 by llig leahcim
Re: Any thoughts on starting tunes at session for the starter-challenged?
BTW bunratty, to answer your question,
>Is it an innate ability to start them effortlessly or is there something I might be able to learn?
I've found it's a skill that can be learned. Maybe the biggest thing for a newer player is keeping hold of the tune as you try and hang onto it while feeling nervous and self-conscious. Just close your eyes and concentrate on the tune, not who's listening.
# Posted on October 4th 2007 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: Any thoughts on starting tunes at session for the starter-challenged?
I realize what I am about to say may get mocked by the esteemed constabulary of this board, but before I began my journey into ITM, I played in many rock, pop, and country bands for years. I always had a set list for every gig we did. That same concept served me well when I started playing trad. I learned a few sets, kept a list, and when an experienced player encouraged me to kick something off, I always had a few pre-planned sets at the ready. I feel it kills the session flow when someone is asked to start something, and they sit there for endless minutes saying "Um, gee, what do I want to play....?" (It's like waiting behind the kid in line at the fast food place for 30 minutes, who when reaching the cashier, still hasn't decided what they want to order) At any rate - once you get a more tunes set to memory, spontaneity will come easily, and starting tunes will no longer be an issue. However, like Grego says - there is no rule saying you have to kick off tunes. If you are not comfortable, just say "I'll pass for now, thanks..."
# Posted on October 4th 2007 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: Any thoughts on starting tunes at session for the starter-challenged?
Just because you like a particular tiune doesn't mean you have to start a set. You can lean over to the nearest prolific player and say "do you know how The Humors of Whatever starts?"
Works nine times out of 10...
# Posted on October 4th 2007 by grego
Re: Any thoughts on starting tunes at session for the starter-challenged?
Three: To bend the session to your will
i.e you don't know or like the tunes already played and you want to "take over" or change the dynamics to suit yourself.
Piano accordions are good at this.........
Not a move I'd recommend or approve but many seem to do (or try to) it!!
# Posted on October 4th 2007 by Johannes J
Re: Any thoughts on starting tunes at session for the starter-challenged?
As has already been observed, it's sometimes handy to have one or two "emergency sets" up your sleeve
See
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/8913
Preferably, you should include one or two tunes that the comapany will know. Be inclusive. As Llig hints, it shouldn't be a "show off".
# Posted on October 4th 2007 by Johannes J
Re: Any thoughts on starting tunes at session for the starter-challenged?
so if you like something ~ it is because you have to do it
or because you have to do it ~ you like it?
# Posted on October 4th 2007 by Tonya
Re: Any thoughts on starting tunes at session for the starter-challenged?
Frankly, I love it when a good player starts a set with a tune they love and know intimately, even if they know nobody else can play it. I could care less if people think they are "showing off." It inspires me to learn the tune and be a better player. Additionally, as Johnny J points out so well, I have noticed that great players follow up their "special" tune with a set of inclusive tunes that spreads the joy around the room. To be honest, I think the whole "showing off" argument is a bunch of hooey. If you love a tune and know it well - play it. Let the insecure crowd worry about your "real intentions."
# Posted on October 4th 2007 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: Any thoughts on starting tunes at session for the starter-challenged?
"the insecure crowd" I just had a vision of this big group of people, heads down, wringing their hands, and goiing "errrr, mmmm, oh dear, oh my,...."
# Posted on October 4th 2007 by grego
Re: Any thoughts on starting tunes at session for the starter-challenged?
If you're a stranger to a session there's the possibility that one of the regulars will say something along the lines of "have ye got a tune for us, then?". So be prepared. This seems to apply particularly if you're in Ireland, because it's happened at every session I've been to there - and, expecting it, I was prepared.
Otherwise, I'm usually quite happy to let others kick off with the tunes.
Just seen JNE's post come up on the screen. I agree with every word.
# Posted on October 4th 2007 by lazyhound
Re: Any thoughts on starting tunes at session for the starter-challenged?
More like, nose in the air, and muttering "humphff! what a show-off" under their breath...
# Posted on October 4th 2007 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: Any thoughts on starting tunes at session for the starter-challenged?
No, that's the stuck-up crowd. But we do tell them "you're just insecure!" because it irritates them.
# Posted on October 4th 2007 by grego
Re: Any thoughts on starting tunes at session for the starter-challenged?
I've no problem with a good player, hearing tunes I don't know or both. That's not the same thing as "showing off".
Hopefully, the difference should be obvious and usually is in "the real world" away from this board.
# Posted on October 4th 2007 by Johannes J
Re: Any thoughts on starting tunes at session for the starter-challenged?
bunratty, this is a skill that takes practice - and the only way to really practice it is to do it.
As Eejit mentioned, having a few sets that you can start at a moment's notice is useful (That Eejit sure isn't living up to his name!). But if you take it a step further, you can have a number of individual tunes that you can start, no matter what. That way, you can not only start them in a pre-determined set, but if someone looks at you in the middle of a set and says "can you get us into The Road to Whereverville?", you can nod your head and pull it off.
The more you do that, the better you will get at it. And don't worry - it's a common occurrence to try to get into a different tune, only to crash and burn... Just laugh it off and keep going - it's not important! (It's not like it's a paid performance, right?)
As I have mentioned numerous times, I have some sort of subconscious mnemonic device that attaches the first phrase of a tune (kinesthetically) to the name of the tune. So people often look at me and ask if I can start a particular tune in the middle of a set. It's a handy skill to work on!
Pete
# Posted on October 4th 2007 by Reverend
Re: Any thoughts on starting tunes at session for the starter-challenged?
So Pete, how does that work when I glance at you and mumble, "Da Rrrroad to mmmbbwwrrruuuuffffllleyyyy!"
# Posted on October 4th 2007 by Will CPT
Re: Any thoughts on starting tunes at session for the starter-challenged?
yeah, like you could even mumble that much when you're playing fiddle, CPT
Pete
# Posted on October 4th 2007 by Reverend
Re: Any thoughts on starting tunes at session for the starter-challenged?
Yer right, at best it comes out: "mmmwwawwrrr."
# Posted on October 4th 2007 by Will CPT
Re: Any thoughts on starting tunes at session for the starter-challenged?
Sometimes it's good to start a set that everyone already knows at the tempo YOU want to play it for a change.
# Posted on October 4th 2007 by Steve Shaw
Re: Any thoughts on starting tunes at session for the starter-challenged?
Oh... Well I can start *that* one, heck I think I taught it to you! It's the one that goes dum diddle diddle deedle dum...
For me, learning how to talk while I'm playing was much harder than learning how to start tunes...
And nowadays, I LIKE starting tunes, because then we get to play them with the rhythm that I have in MY head instead of the one that somebody else has...
Pete
# Posted on October 4th 2007 by Reverend
Re: Any thoughts on starting tunes at session for the starter-challenged?
Ahh, cross-post, Steve.
Yeah, same as I was saying... When you start a set, you get to play it the way you want, that includes tempo, rhythm, setting, etc. (At least, most good, courteous sessions will not speed your tune up, or change things too much...)
Pete
# Posted on October 4th 2007 by Reverend
Re: Any thoughts on starting tunes at session for the starter-challenged?
I'm curious to know what people's definition of "showing off" is then - playing a fiddle reel at warp speed, whilst juggling a few pint glasses like an Ed Sullivan show bear, and step dancing with a Flattley-esque Flair? or is it something more subtle...?
# Posted on October 4th 2007 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: Any thoughts on starting tunes at session for the starter-challenged?
It's obvious. It's starting off any tune I don't know.
# Posted on October 4th 2007 by grego
Re: Any thoughts on starting tunes at session for the starter-challenged?
Another reason for starting off a set -- and a very good one IMHO -- is you can determine the speed of the set. If it's heartbreakingly sluggish, you can inject much needed pace - but probably most likely - if it's too fast to savour the tunes or just too fast for you to hang on -- you can start a set at a civilised pace.
# Posted on October 4th 2007 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: Any thoughts on starting tunes at session for the starter-challenged?
Oops - just saw Steve Shaw's post, saying the same, but sooner and in a tenth of the words.
# Posted on October 4th 2007 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: Any thoughts on starting tunes at session for the starter-challenged?
I think I usually only remember the first 3-5 notes of a tune, and expect the rest of it to take care of itself once I get into it. (Or, at least, the first 3-5 notes are the only ones that I mnemonically attach to the name of the tune).
That generally works until I run into something that starts just like another tune or something. And then you just have to remember the first couple of notes and then the pivotal note where the similar tunes diverge...
If you know the tune well enough to play it, then you really only have to remember the first few notes to be able to start it in a session.
Pete
# Posted on October 4th 2007 by Reverend
Re: Any thoughts on starting tunes at session for the starter-challenged?
Never heard of that. If you only remember the first 3-5 notes of a tune you don't know the tune.
Knowing the tune to me means being able to lead it with or without anyone joining in (in which case it isn't leading - it's playing - cos you know it.)
I don't think that's showing off either. You go to sessions to play tunes. Because you carry them around with you in your consciuos mind the rest of the week, and then playing them out at a session is the catharsis of that.
# Posted on October 4th 2007 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: Any thoughts on starting tunes at session for the starter-challenged?
Oh, don't get me wrong... I'm not saying that I don't know the whole tune!!! But for me, the ability to start tunes on the fly comes from remembering how they start. Once I'm in to the tune, I know the whole tune.
My point was that the "subconscious mnemonic device" that I use to remember how tunes starts only includes the first couple of notes.
That's handy, because it's *difficult* to think how a tune goes while you're in the middle of playing another tune! But if you've memorized the first few notes, you can get started...
Pete
# Posted on October 4th 2007 by Reverend
Re: Any thoughts on starting tunes at session for the starter-challenged?
Yes, the theme from "The Odd Couple" gets you started into Cooley's reel. "Da dum-de-dum de-doo"
# Posted on October 4th 2007 by grego
Re: Any thoughts on starting tunes at session for the starter-challenged?
Yeah, that's another kind of mnemonic device! We use that kind of stuff all the time when teaching tunes at our tune learning session... It's the "bibbity bobbity boo" thing, or it ends with the "M O U S E" ending, etc.
pete
# Posted on October 4th 2007 by Reverend
Re: Any thoughts on starting tunes at session for the starter-challenged?
I can only start a set if I refer to my list of sets in advance. Othrwise everything will come out The Boys of Blue Hill.
If I think there's a chance of being asked to kick off, I will be ready to go. If I choose to play a set because nothing is going on, I will be able to pick something I think is suitable for the occasion.
"He who fails to plan, plans to fail".
# Posted on October 4th 2007 by oldstrings
Re: Any thoughts on starting tunes at session for the starter-challenged?
Doesn't that sort of take some of the fun out of it oldstrings?
Spontaneity is part of what makes sessions enjoyable for me. If you can only start the same sets, or sets that you've pre-planned, I think you might be missing out on some of the fun.
Do you strive to be able to start other tunes and sets? Or are you happy to be with where you are?
Pete
# Posted on October 4th 2007 by Reverend
Re: Any thoughts on starting tunes at session for the starter-challenged?
BTW, oldstrings, in re-reading my last post, it might seem that I'm trying to belittle you or something, and that's not the case at all! I am curious to know your answer. Different people have different things that they want out of playing music...
Pete
# Posted on October 4th 2007 by Reverend
Re: Any thoughts on starting tunes at session for the starter-challenged?
By the way Rev, don't know if you are a baseball fan, but congrats on your Rockies scrambling their way into the playoffs - too bad they are only destined to have their hearts broken down here in AZ later on...;-]
# Posted on October 4th 2007 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: Any thoughts on starting tunes at session for the starter-challenged?
Hey JNE,
I *am* a baseball ban, and am watching the Rockies up 6-3 in Philly as I type...
As far as AZ goes, too bad you couldn't put us away when you had the chance, because you're going to hate it if you have to meet us again...
Pete
# Posted on October 4th 2007 by Reverend
Re: Any thoughts on starting tunes at session for the starter-challenged?
We shall see Rev, we shall see - oh, by the way, Halliday was OUT at the plate against SD - ;-P
# Posted on October 4th 2007 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: Any thoughts on starting tunes at session for the starter-challenged?
Yeah, but Atkins' ball was a home run, so it should have been a moot point... (And it's Holliday, BTW)
Darn, and now the Rockies are up 8-3...
And now, JNE, you should apologize to bunratty for hijacking an interesting thread
Pete
# Posted on October 4th 2007 by Reverend
Re: Any thoughts on starting tunes at session for the starter-challenged?
LOL - apologies bunratty - good luck with the tunes!
# Posted on October 4th 2007 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: Any thoughts on starting tunes at session for the starter-challenged?
I know it's a slight hijack, but as a couple of people responded to what I said I'd like to make a related point. As I'm not Otto Klemperer I have trouble getting the tempo just right if I start a set, but give me three or four bars on my own and I can find it. Unfortunately, by then the others have all waded in and joined me in the "wrong" tempo, and it's too late then to do anything about it. I've been trying to persuade the other chaps to let the set-starter find his tempo before joining in. Anyone got any wrinkles on this?
# Posted on October 4th 2007 by Steve Shaw
Re: Any thoughts on starting tunes at session for the starter-challenged?
Steve, I think there's a difference to be pointed out here between starting a new set and starting a tune - if you're already in a set, then you shouldn't generally change tempo going into a new tune.
I know a lot of players that start a tune, and then speed up as they "find the groove". I do that on occasion myself. But when I do it, I try to get it up to the speed by the time other players are ready to join in. Or at least, if they know it's happening, they'll cue onto matching me as the tempo changes. The more you play with people, the better you get to know each other, and it can be done seamlessly.
Pete
# Posted on October 4th 2007 by Reverend
Re: Any thoughts on starting tunes at session for the starter-challenged?
Yes, actually. Start off playing very quietly and somewhat unintelligibly. A time-honoured technique.
# Posted on October 4th 2007 by benhall.1
Re: Any thoughts on starting tunes at session for the starter-challenged?
Damn. That was supposed to be in answer to Steve's question ...
# Posted on October 4th 2007 by benhall.1
Re: Any thoughts on starting tunes at session for the starter-challenged?
That's a good one rev. And Steve, give it a go. I often never really know what pace I want to play a set until after I've started. So I start just a couple of notes, then a bar and a half maybe, a pause, and then settle on a pace. It's impossible for anyone to join in until I'm settled. Works fine.
# Posted on October 4th 2007 by llig leahcim
Re: Any thoughts on starting tunes at session for the starter-challenged?
Kicking off a tune in any group setting is mostly poise and attitude. If you are set up mentally, everything else will fall into place on its own. Failing that you could try setting the tempo in your head, as in silently count off a bar before you make any noise. If you can't manage the counting, then hum the first couple of bars in your head in the tempo you're going to play to set the tempo.
The late Jester Hairston (pretty far removed from ITM, but quite a musical figure) taught me his secret for setting up a tempo ahead of time and/or finding a tempo when a lot of arrhythmic noise is in your way - tap it out in your toes because "no one can see your toes moving in your shoes".
# Posted on October 4th 2007 by monkey440
Re: Any thoughts on starting tunes at session for the starter-challenged?
To clear it up, Pete, I wasn't suggesting changing tempo within a set (anathema in my view, even if the tempo's all to cock), but just getting it "right" at the very start. Anyway, great advice from you and Ben and Michael which I will endeavour to put into practice at The Tree tomorrow. Cheers!
# Posted on October 5th 2007 by Steve Shaw
Re: Any thoughts on starting tunes at session for the starter-challenged?
And you, monkey!
# Posted on October 5th 2007 by Steve Shaw
Re: Any thoughts on starting tunes at session for the starter-challenged?
Thanks to all who have provided suggestions (and to the rest of you for your... er..wit. Actually, my question was a real one. I just don't seem to have tunes in my head at the session..be it nervousness or whatever. Part of it might be that at our session people are actively learning new tunes and its a bit intimidating to play one that perhaps was played a lot at some time. Neverthe less I'd like to be able to start tunes, set , whatever in order to contribute more to the session. So far aside from bringing a list with the first few abc I can't do it (and I'm not new to session playing)
# Posted on October 5th 2007 by Acacia
Re: Any thoughts on starting tunes at session for the starter-challenged?
Relaxation is key, bunratty. It helps if you're comfortable with the people you're playing with.
I got asked to start sets at a number of sessions during a recent trip to Ireland, and I think I flubbed up about half of them, because I was playing with a bunch of people I had never played with before. That was a bit of a surprise to me, because I don't have any problems starting things at any of the sessions I go to, or even when I'm visiting friends' sessions in other parts of the country.
I have noticed that when I start something, and it's not going well, and that just makes me think about it more, which makes it worse, I close my eyes, relax, and let myself get into the tune, since I generally don't start things that I can't play well.
But use the tricks listed above to see how it helps. To recap:
* preplan your sets
* have a few at your disposal so you aren't put on the spot
* memorize the first phrase of a tune, so that you can get into it at any time
* ask someone else if they know the tunes before you start so you have some backup
* start out at your comfortable pace, not necessarily the pace everything else has been played at
* start slowly, and work your way up to the groove
And I'll add one more at the risk of starting yet another flame war. Try "noodling" a bit of the tune quietly before you start, that way you can make sure you remember how it goes, and other people might pick up on it and be there to back you up...
If it's just a question of not being able to think of tunes to play while you're sitting in a session, then by all means, write yourself a little cheat sheet of things that you've worked on that week, so you can remember to play them if you get a chance.
Pete
# Posted on October 5th 2007 by Reverend
Re: Any thoughts on starting tunes at session for the starter-challenged?
It's also a damned fine idea to practise the changeovers from one tune to the next in your sets till you're blue in the face. I don't really recognise the word "practise," but this really does pay off - you'll avoid many a train wreck if you can do your changeovers confidently!
# Posted on October 5th 2007 by Steve Shaw
Re: Any thoughts on starting tunes at session for the starter-challenged?
Reverend, my point about preparation matches the first point in your last post! "Preplan your sets".
Because my short-term memory is not what it used to be, and because the first tune which comes to mind may not be what I really want to play, I pick my sets in advance in order to contribute more positively to the session's progress.
I certainly agree with your views on spontaneity, but being spontaneous will lead me to the same old tunes. By planning my sets, I get to play what I really want to play. I have several sets ready to go, and decide at the time which will fit in best.
# Posted on October 5th 2007 by oldstrings
Re: Any thoughts on starting tunes at session for the starter-challenged?
No the best at this, but starting to tap your foot well before starting playing can help lock in a speed before you are joined by the rush. Also, supplying a very rhythmic first few notes means people will recognise the speed you are playing at more easily and not join in too fast. I try to shut my ears to others first notes so as not to be swayed.
Regarding knowing what to play, practise a set or two as a single entity, and the changes will take care of themselves. Later when you are less fearful of leading you can wing it...
Personally, when leading a set, I'd like a way to remember how many times through the tune has been played so I know when to change. I always know its the first time, and I know the second time, but by the third time I can't remember whether its the second or third.
# Posted on October 5th 2007 by cag
Re: Any thoughts on starting tunes at session for the starter-challenged?
Some people seem to get nervous starting a set because of the prospect of playing alone until everyone else dials in. A guy I know often asks me to start a tune that he wants to play, but I invariably start it at a tempo that he wouldn't choose (well, if you're going to hand over the power...) One way we get around this is to lilt a bit of the tune that is suggested; names often escape us anyway. And then count it in out loud so that a bunch of us can start at once.
As for pre-planning sets, ours is a small session and the regular members all have different tastes and backgrounds with the tunes, so it helps us all a bit because we're not really at the point where we can read each others minds yet for tunes on the fly, and our repertoires aren't all the same anyway.
Oldstrings, I haven't heard you start Boys of Blue Hill for a long time, so I think your method seems to work fine.
I'm glad, because I really don't like that tune.
Mike
# Posted on October 5th 2007 by MikeDucayen
Re: Any thoughts on starting tunes at session for the starter-challenged?
oldstrings, I appreciate the idea of preplanning some sets so that you can play things that might be out of the ordinary. And yes, I included that as an idea for how to get better at it. But it's just that, a tool. If you rely too heavily on it, you'll never progress beyond it.
One thing that llig said a while back stuck with me. And I quote directly "Just get to a state where you can let tunes gently bubble to the surface, conjured by the subconscious massages of the tunes other people are playing. That's what it's about"
I agree with that. It's a neat feeling when you're in the middle of a set that you started, you have no idea what you're going to play next, and instead of forcing the issue or stressing about it, you just relax, until a tune slides into your head which works out wonderfully! If you don't get the inspiration, you can always just say "once more, lads" on the previous tune.
This is something that does happen for me, but not as often as I would like. So it is something that I strive for. And I put myself in that position all the time on purpose - starting a set without having any clue what else I'm going to play...
Pete
# Posted on October 5th 2007 by Reverend
Re: Any thoughts on starting tunes at session for the starter-challenged?
Play "The Gravel Walk". Everybody knows it and it automatically energises the room.
# Posted on October 5th 2007 by chris stolz
Re: Any thoughts on starting tunes at session for the starter-challenged?
..or play The Kesh. Everybody knows that and will start yawning with boredom so you'll end up playing it on your own. Good practice for starting a solo career.
# Posted on October 5th 2007 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: Any thoughts on starting tunes at session for the starter-challenged?
Reverend: "subconscious massages, "?? I'll bet that's a "neat feeling" like you say.
Sheesh, the clergy today!
# Posted on October 5th 2007 by grego
Re: Any thoughts on starting tunes at session for the starter-challenged?
I believe that subconscious massages are most easily enjoyed by harmonica players, who are able to keep one hand in their pocket.
# Posted on October 5th 2007 by oldstrings
Re: Any thoughts on starting tunes at session for the starter-challenged?
Mind you, I sometimes wonder about shaky egg players........
# Posted on October 5th 2007 by oldstrings
Re: Any thoughts on starting tunes at session for the starter-challenged?
Tsk tsk, just because the egg has a condition doesn't mean we need to be rude, let's use the PC term, 'stability-challenged egg' player.
# Posted on October 5th 2007 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Any thoughts on starting tunes at session for the starter-challenged?
...and anymore of that talk and we'll be calling you Reverend Zen instead of Pete. OM my brother, OM.
# Posted on October 5th 2007 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Any thoughts on starting tunes at session for the starter-challenged?
THAT must have been what I was doing at the now infamous brothel... It was all an innocent massage...
Pete
# Posted on October 5th 2007 by Reverend