This might seem straight forward to most .I was just wondering are there many backers that can't figure out the key of a tune unless they are told. I'm putting alot of time into trying to identify the keys of tunes and the key changes without been told .Its bloody hard as with the bodhran it was just about tone changes, Oh the simple life of percussion and surely all the people who give out about bodhrans (ref. good bodhran playing). Must find this more annoying...............
Tell me about it - I had someone who said they were an expert whistle player post on one of my YouTube videos, asking what key the piece was in. Expert?? Just plain incompetent, more like!!
You don't find the tunes' main chord is usually D, G, Em or Am? Occasionally Bm? I figure it's always got to be one of those to start with. They each have their associated chords as well, don't they? With D, you get G and A, with G you get C and D, etc. With Em it's gonna go back to D, with Am it's gonna go back to G, etc. I see the chords like cousins, they're related in certain ways. Then from there, you have your virtuosos who play parts of the tune, which are notes that make up those chords anyway, plus throw in alternative chords, make like Eddie Van Halen and tear up and down the fretboard, etc. but the basics are the four, well, five if you count the Bm.
Now I'll shut up and let a real backer help you. HA!
You're coming to this music as a bodhran player upgrading to musical instrument. Of course you're going to find it hard. Just think how much harder it would be if you were the one who had to actually play the tune.
You'll get the hang of it Saint, no matter how unlikely it seems now. The more you hear the tunes, the more it seems to you can hear the chords.
I practice to any record I can get hold of to help train my ear, which also enables me to really listen to the rhythm of the music, and so I prefer to listen to unaccompanied tunes.
It throws you when some clever git retunes their fiddle and you can't find the key regardless because everything's a semitone out.
Opening up a can of worms, eh?
The whole, "is backing even worth it" discussion begins again.
For a serious answer, when encountering a new tune, I can generally determine a somewhat appropriate backing after one time through if it is simple, and maybe two or three times through if it is complicated. While doing this, I am plucking single notes and chords VERY quietly, so as not to disturb the proceedings. More often than not, however, if it is completely new tune, I stop completely and just use it as an opportunity to take a break. Not every moment of a session or tune needs a guitar strumming in the background!
There's instructional material out there, to say nothing of the knowledgeable folks probably sitting next to you in the session. It's a learnable skill, which can seem daunting if you've not done it before, but at which you can get better.
I knew this thread would be a long one, while I was writing a reply, six more showed up.
Eddie,
One thing you can do is record the session and then try playing along with it at home. That way your experiementation doesn't gum up the sound of the session. And be patient, it can take time to get this skill developed.
Yes! It IS useful saint. In fact, he has a whole article written about this very same subject that I'll find and post. Worth the reading.
Backing IS worth it, and never lat the naysayers here discourage you (that's all they're here for anyway, discouragement, not encouragement). As a melody player and a backer, I prefer backing, and I know I'm not the only one here who feels that way. There's power in each, but backing is just plain fun. So play away.
I'll go find the article now. Luckily for me, someone posted it on the cittern list Chris was refering to...
Dow I always appreciated melody players thats why I took up the bodhran because It would take me personally longer than the average joe soap to learn to play a tune. But one can't forget the hours of practise it takes on the drum (I remember being awake at 4am one night practising with a pillow stuffed inside the drum so the neighbours wouldn't hear). In my opinion there are 3 different types of bodhran player 1 terrible 2, bereable 3.that sounds good. The gap between the levels of playing is probalably greater than and other instrument..........But this key stuff and gettig it right ,I now understand why ye are so cranky.........
I'm going to pretend I'm Michael Gill for a moment---if you learn the tune, then you can also learn the key of the tune at the same time and you won't have to guess...?
ya al thats my thinking record it and master one at a time..........but the second part of question are there backers out there that don't know the keys and still try to play because this must be madness..............
Saint, here's a link to Chris Smith's wesite. This should take you right to the "instructional" page. Great, useful stuff hear. http://coyotebanjo.com/music-group-28.html
Yes, SWFL, I am waiting for the playoffs to begin, even though, as a man of faith, it pains me to root against "Angels." I think the Red Sox are as ready as they can be, although I am also ready for the pain that they so often bring to our lives!
Eddie, Click on coyotebanjo's name on his comment above, and follow the links in his member info, he has some great info on his website, and his book/CD on the topic of backing is like a master's class all in one neat package.
Tell me about it - I had someone who said they were an expert whistle player post on one of my YouTube videos, asking what key the piece was in. Expert?? Just plain incompetent, more like!!
# Posted on October 3rd 2007 by Mark Harmer
That's a bit harsh. Bet you don't know who played mid-field for Antrim in the 1989 All Ireland hurling final? But if you do not, I would say that is lack of interest, rather than call you incompetent.
You're coming to this music as a bodhran player upgrading to musical instrument. Of course you're going to find it hard. Just think how much harder it would be if you were the one who had to actually play the tune.
but sure if everyone was really into and enjoying the music their playin does it really matter. i know its annoying but find someway to drop a hint....... or buy them a "how to play 'x' " book and see if they get the hint.
I find the key by inagining all the chords in a circle with the main chord in the centre (surely thats easy for you to find) then work your way round to find the right key... it makes sense in my head but i dont know if dat really would help anyone else without sounding crazy!
I'd be more likely to forgive someone for not guessing the mode. If you can't determine the key and whatever you're holding actually plays notes, your just making noise. You'd be better off to set it down and enjoy another pint.
Dude, the easiest way to learn keys by ear is just to sit in on tunes and pluck away quietly or pick up some old recordings of fiddle players. No way to learn except by trying. It helps to know what notes are in chords too, cause if some fiddlers bring music, you can sorta generate chords out of what is written down. With that said, don't forget to use your ear in that case.
Well, as a guitar player, if I can actually hear my instrument above the noise of the fiddles (or whatever), I play a note. If it's not in the scale I try another until I find a note in the scale (don't ask me how I know which note it is, but I do know where it is in the scale). Then I find the root (doh). Then I look at the fingerboard to see what it is.
But if I can't hear then I try to look at a fiddler's left hand.
Ciaran Barr started the final at full forward, and switched to mid-field.
I played with a fiddle player, and when we tried to explain keys to him he finally said, without joking, "you mean you put your fingers in a different position?".
Same old advice... learn the tunes, ultimately you have to know them as well as the melody players... then keep them in your brain while your hands do something else, and do not think about yourself but be so focused on the melody player that it's the closest thing to mind reading just in case they improvise on the tune a bit and be right there with them all through no matter where they take you. That's backing. I had a discussion with a well known backer who also plays tunes the other night, I do both myself too, and we concluded that backing is more complicated than melody playing for the above reasons... if done well.
As Al Brown says, (I think it was you Al!) tape the sessions, go home and immerse yourself in the music. If you have a half decent ear you will start to pick up on the structures of the tunes and what the keys sound like in relation to each other. You should in time with lots of immersion in the music, develop near perfect relative pitch, where you can hear a key change in a split second in most cases. It takes lots of practice, but if you love the music enough, hours will go by and it seems like fun, not work. You have to love it for no other reason than you just love it, it has to be a passion to be able to put in the time to get good at it and develop your ear.
Most players will not tell you a key, and they get it wrong sometimes if they are ear players especially. Or they say A, and it's A minor, or D, and the second part is Bm. The ones who do tell you, may only mention the first tune, because they don't know what they will play after. It's not for them to babysit us and if they do not tell us, it is not to be considered rude. They are there to just play and enjoy like eveyone else. Many though are nice enough, if you ask one to keep telling you, they usually don't mind helping out, but be alert to the fact that you may sometimes be steered wrong by accident.
In a noisy place my ear hears E when someone says A or vice versa. it confuses the daylights out of me when people tell me keys in most cases. I will go where they say,and it is at times not right or not complete info.
Sitting out after a change for a few bars while discretely hunting for a note that would indicate a key is a good idea. Test for G or D first. Your ear will likely first start to hear the differences between major or minor keys, then it will get more specific. Still, learn the session tunes common to the places you go, then the key will come easier, you'll remember them most likely.
It takes time, just like playing melody. It is as much a learning curve as with melody if done right. People think we play guitar because we failed as melody players or can't cut it. it's really a very complex instrument once you get into the depths of it. Most of the best backers will also not just chord, but toss in melody here and there, so learn the tunes....it's really fun and builds your ears up!
I think if you're backing and there's a key change into an unknown key / piece, my preference is to sit out for a whole section or whole verse of the tune (or even two), rather than come in after a random few bars. Of course, taking a break for one whole repeat of the tune does allow you more time to work out what the key is, and then you can gently try things out, quietly, until you're feeling confident that you've "got it". I know not everyone waits until the beginning of a distinct section, and often they just sort of "drift" in as they get the new key sorted out in their minds, but personally I like the effect when people join / leave at the beginning of whole sections.
I suppose it comes down to how seriously you take playing the instrument. As a bouzouki player you can back by strumming chords even on tunes you don't know if you recognise the key, but it won't be brilliant.
On the other hand, learn the tunes and you can start being a bouzouki player and play the instrument in whatever style you choose.
Have you got the Zan McLeod DVD Saint? That's a good place to start as he places emphasis on the tunes and teaches flatpicking.
>People think we play guitar because we failed as melody players or can't cut it. it's really a very complex instrument
Ok, plenty of plectrum wielding strummers out there actually do know what they are doing and are damn good at it. I'll give you that. But those that continually mute the strings so heavy with your left hand that they don't actually sound any audible notes while you continue to strum away like we can't tell ... we're onto ya! We know who you are
Oh.... monkey440... you mean they do that on purpose... strum muted strings.... and I thought they were just playing clumsy! At least the key is not an issue!
How many don't strum though and play fingerstyle, just wonder. We're in the minority most likely. One of the great geniuses of finger backing is Martin Carthy in my humble opinion. Not many do it.
When I play back-up with my guitar, and I don't know the tune, I strum as if it is a march no matter what type of tune it is. I also play real loud so that I can hear me over those inconsiderate melody players so I can be sure all the nuances are there in my chord. Than I guess at the chord I should be on, which is easy because there are only three possibilities. It really makes me angry when a set changes keys, so I play the entire A part of the new tune before I start guessing what key we are in (sometimes I ask the melody player next to me) and what chord I should be on (only three possibilities). Only those sitting within 4 or 5 seats hear me, tho, because any further away they can only hear one of the other guitarists. Sometimes the other quitars are on the right key, but I find that if there are five or so guitars, the combination of several different keys and chords means that a few of the strummed notes are correct even if others aren't.
I especially enjoy using the guitar as a percussion instrument when all else fails. Strumming dead strings or just pounding them is really cool....makes me feel like I am contributing to something larger than myself, especially if I bob my head. I never let the nay Sayers discourage me cause backing is just so much fun.
One little talent that few seem to appreciate is my ability to play minor chords where majors are expected and vice-a-versa. It certainly adds diversity to tunes i.e. the Kesh as a dirge is haunting. the Ballydesmonds in majors makes them sound so alive.
Otherwise, I spend countless hours learning and practicing tunes (melody) on my whistles and mandolin.
Feardearg - I KNOW you are just kidding but the number of w**kers that do exactly that annoys the hell out of me.
I usually call out the keys of the tunes I'm going to play to give the backers a heads up.
Some will do the three chord wonder stuff and that can be ok but the backer who actually bothers to learn the tunes and develops chord sequences to suit is the boy or girl for me.
We are really lucky over here in that we have a couple of really outstanding backers - JIm Byrne, John McGreevy, Darragh Murphy, Jim Rainey, to name a few.
What about the clowns who move capo at every key change?
# Posted on October 5th 2007 by geoffwright
I would say that's about 95% of them. As for clowns, well I am not sure I agree there. Reminds me of the time we saw Tommy Emmanuel in concert. When he produced a capo the non guitarists all muttered with false sneers "A capo? Can he play or not?"
Unfortunately, even knowing the tune itself wont automatically mean you will know the key, or chord pattern!
Knowing the notes will be a help but you will still need to figure out the chord pattern. This can be done by ear or paper and theory.
Generally i can get the key quickly, They are pretty limited.Em, Am G,D A. occasionally Bm.
Saint, get a tin whistle and start learning a few tunes..The fiddlers fake book has good chord settings. once you have tune and chords sorted for a bunch of tunes you will be well on the way.
Really, with this music there are no short cuts, no instant mastery! simply years of hard work and dedication. Ok and fun. but plenty of frustration too. !..... welcome
backers that don't know the key
backers that don't know the key
This might seem straight forward to most .I was just wondering are there many backers that can't figure out the key of a tune unless they are told. I'm putting alot of time into trying to identify the keys of tunes and the key changes without been told .Its bloody hard as with the bodhran it was just about tone changes, Oh the simple life of percussion and surely all the people who give out about bodhrans (ref. good bodhran playing). Must find this more annoying...............
# Posted on October 3rd 2007 by Saint
Re: backers that don't know the key
Tell me about it - I had someone who said they were an expert whistle player post on one of my YouTube videos, asking what key the piece was in. Expert?? Just plain incompetent, more like!!
# Posted on October 3rd 2007 by Mark Harmer
Re: backers that don't know the key
You don't find the tunes' main chord is usually D, G, Em or Am? Occasionally Bm? I figure it's always got to be one of those to start with. They each have their associated chords as well, don't they? With D, you get G and A, with G you get C and D, etc. With Em it's gonna go back to D, with Am it's gonna go back to G, etc. I see the chords like cousins, they're related in certain ways. Then from there, you have your virtuosos who play parts of the tune, which are notes that make up those chords anyway, plus throw in alternative chords, make like Eddie Van Halen and tear up and down the fretboard, etc. but the basics are the four, well, five if you count the Bm.
Now I'll shut up and let a real backer help you. HA!
# Posted on October 3rd 2007 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: backers that don't know the key
Oh, I'm sorry. Are you legitimately asking for help or are we bitching about people who can't figure out the key? Just let me know, I'm flexible.
# Posted on October 3rd 2007 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: backers that don't know the key
You're coming to this music as a bodhran player upgrading to musical instrument. Of course you're going to find it hard. Just think how much harder it would be if you were the one who had to actually play the tune.
# Posted on October 3rd 2007 by Dow
Re: backers that don't know the key
Sorry Dow. You're confusing bodhran players and bodhran owners.
# Posted on October 3rd 2007 by Steve Shaw
Re: backers that don't know the key
You'll get the hang of it Saint, no matter how unlikely it seems now. The more you hear the tunes, the more it seems to you can hear the chords.
I practice to any record I can get hold of to help train my ear, which also enables me to really listen to the rhythm of the music, and so I prefer to listen to unaccompanied tunes.
It throws you when some clever git retunes their fiddle and you can't find the key regardless because everything's a semitone out.
# Posted on October 3rd 2007 by Sugarfoot Jack
Re: backers that don't know the key
Opening up a can of worms, eh?
The whole, "is backing even worth it" discussion begins again.
For a serious answer, when encountering a new tune, I can generally determine a somewhat appropriate backing after one time through if it is simple, and maybe two or three times through if it is complicated. While doing this, I am plucking single notes and chords VERY quietly, so as not to disturb the proceedings. More often than not, however, if it is completely new tune, I stop completely and just use it as an opportunity to take a break. Not every moment of a session or tune needs a guitar strumming in the background!
# Posted on October 3rd 2007 by AlBrown
Re: backers that don't know the key
There's instructional material out there, to say nothing of the knowledgeable folks probably sitting next to you in the session. It's a learnable skill, which can seem daunting if you've not done it before, but at which you can get better.
As it happens, I've just been asked about finding key areas and improvising accompaniment over here: http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/cittern/message/26505
Perhaps you'll find it useful.
chris smith
# Posted on October 3rd 2007 by coyotebanjo
Re: backers that don't know the key
I knew this thread would be a long one, while I was writing a reply, six more showed up.
Eddie,
One thing you can do is record the session and then try playing along with it at home. That way your experiementation doesn't gum up the sound of the session. And be patient, it can take time to get this skill developed.
# Posted on October 3rd 2007 by AlBrown
Re: backers that don't know the key
Yes! It IS useful saint. In fact, he has a whole article written about this very same subject that I'll find and post. Worth the reading.
Backing IS worth it, and never lat the naysayers here discourage you (that's all they're here for anyway, discouragement, not encouragement). As a melody player and a backer, I prefer backing, and I know I'm not the only one here who feels that way. There's power in each, but backing is just plain fun. So play away.
I'll go find the article now. Luckily for me, someone posted it on the cittern list Chris was refering to...
# Posted on October 3rd 2007 by MartySmith
Re: backers that don't know the key
Dow I always appreciated melody players thats why I took up the bodhran because It would take me personally longer than the average joe soap to learn to play a tune. But one can't forget the hours of practise it takes on the drum (I remember being awake at 4am one night practising with a pillow stuffed inside the drum so the neighbours wouldn't hear). In my opinion there are 3 different types of bodhran player 1 terrible 2, bereable 3.that sounds good. The gap between the levels of playing is probalably greater than and other instrument..........But this key stuff and gettig it right ,I now understand why ye are so cranky.........
# Posted on October 3rd 2007 by Saint
Re: backers that don't know the key
I'm going to pretend I'm Michael Gill for a moment---if you learn the tune, then you can also learn the key of the tune at the same time and you won't have to guess...?
# Posted on October 3rd 2007 by kennedy
Re: backers that don't know the key
I sort of rattled off the mechanics there, but without Al's instruction on backing etiquette, it's useless!
Ready for 6 PM EST, Al? All of Red Sox Nation is on stand-by, especially us here in Fort Myers, their Spring Training home.
# Posted on October 3rd 2007 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: backers that don't know the key
ya al thats my thinking record it and master one at a time..........but the second part of question are there backers out there that don't know the keys and still try to play because this must be madness..............
# Posted on October 3rd 2007 by Saint
Re: backers that don't know the key
Well, yes Saint, there are those out there and they're terrifying. They are the ones melody players complain about.
Why do people do it? Good question. Obviously they haven't come here to read what Al posts. [wink]
# Posted on October 3rd 2007 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: backers that don't know the key
Saint, here's a link to Chris Smith's wesite. This should take you right to the "instructional" page. Great, useful stuff hear.
http://coyotebanjo.com/music-group-28.html
# Posted on October 3rd 2007 by MartySmith
Re: backers that don't know the key
Yes, SWFL, I am waiting for the playoffs to begin, even though, as a man of faith, it pains me to root against "Angels." I think the Red Sox are as ready as they can be, although I am also ready for the pain that they so often bring to our lives!
Eddie, Click on coyotebanjo's name on his comment above, and follow the links in his member info, he has some great info on his website, and his book/CD on the topic of backing is like a master's class all in one neat package.
# Posted on October 3rd 2007 by AlBrown
Re: backers that don't know the key
Don't feel badly Al. It was only Disney who named them 'angels'!
# Posted on October 3rd 2007 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: backers that don't know the key
You don't know from pain. Try being a Mets fan. Then you'll know pain.
Sorry. It's a very sore subject at the moment...
# Posted on October 3rd 2007 by kennedy
Re: backers that don't know the key
Tell me about it - I had someone who said they were an expert whistle player post on one of my YouTube videos, asking what key the piece was in. Expert?? Just plain incompetent, more like!!
# Posted on October 3rd 2007 by Mark Harmer
That's a bit harsh. Bet you don't know who played mid-field for Antrim in the 1989 All Ireland hurling final? But if you do not, I would say that is lack of interest, rather than call you incompetent.
# Posted on October 3rd 2007 by bodhran bliss
Re: backers that don't know the key
You're coming to this music as a bodhran player upgrading to musical instrument. Of course you're going to find it hard. Just think how much harder it would be if you were the one who had to actually play the tune.
# Posted on October 3rd 2007 by Dow
Tunes are simple to play. (copy write M.Llig)
I agree with him.
# Posted on October 3rd 2007 by bodhran bliss
Re: backers that don't know the key
but sure if everyone was really into and enjoying the music their playin does it really matter. i know its annoying but find someway to drop a hint....... or buy them a "how to play 'x' " book and see if they get the hint.
I find the key by inagining all the chords in a circle with the main chord in the centre (surely thats easy for you to find) then work your way round to find the right key... it makes sense in my head but i dont know if dat really would help anyone else without sounding crazy!
# Posted on October 3rd 2007 by Lollypoll
Re: backers that don't know the key
I m bodhran eddie tonight so I can enjoy a pint......................bliss what position did ciaran barr play
# Posted on October 3rd 2007 by Saint
Re: backers that don't know the key
I'd be more likely to forgive someone for not guessing the mode. If you can't determine the key and whatever you're holding actually plays notes, your just making noise. You'd be better off to set it down and enjoy another pint.
# Posted on October 3rd 2007 by monkey440
Re: backers that don't know the key
You mean there's different keys ??? ;-O
# Posted on October 3rd 2007 by Backer
Re: backers that don't know the key
;-o
# Posted on October 3rd 2007 by Backer
Re: backers that don't know the key
;-0
# Posted on October 3rd 2007 by Backer
Re: backers that don't know the key
Q. How do you know a guitar player is at your door?
A. They never use the right key and always come in at the wrong time.
Sorry about your Mets, kennedy. They must have studied the Red Sox’s collapses over the years to perfect it so well.
# Posted on October 3rd 2007 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: backers that don't know the key
Dude, the easiest way to learn keys by ear is just to sit in on tunes and pluck away quietly or pick up some old recordings of fiddle players. No way to learn except by trying. It helps to know what notes are in chords too, cause if some fiddlers bring music, you can sorta generate chords out of what is written down. With that said, don't forget to use your ear in that case.
# Posted on October 3rd 2007 by Jeffery
Re: backers that don't know the key
Well, as a guitar player, if I can actually hear my instrument above the noise of the fiddles (or whatever), I play a note. If it's not in the scale I try another until I find a note in the scale (don't ask me how I know which note it is, but I do know where it is in the scale). Then I find the root (doh). Then I look at the fingerboard to see what it is.
But if I can't hear then I try to look at a fiddler's left hand.
# Posted on October 3rd 2007 by DonaldK
Re: backers that don't know the key
Ciaran Barr started the final at full forward, and switched to mid-field.
I played with a fiddle player, and when we tried to explain keys to him he finally said, without joking, "you mean you put your fingers in a different position?".
That's the kind of music theory I like.
# Posted on October 4th 2007 by bodhran bliss
Re: backers that don't know the key
Ciaran Barr great player how about my rugby tips bliss......................
# Posted on October 4th 2007 by Saint
Re: backers that don't know the key
Same old advice... learn the tunes, ultimately you have to know them as well as the melody players... then keep them in your brain while your hands do something else, and do not think about yourself but be so focused on the melody player that it's the closest thing to mind reading just in case they improvise on the tune a bit and be right there with them all through no matter where they take you. That's backing. I had a discussion with a well known backer who also plays tunes the other night, I do both myself too, and we concluded that backing is more complicated than melody playing for the above reasons... if done well.
As Al Brown says, (I think it was you Al!) tape the sessions, go home and immerse yourself in the music. If you have a half decent ear you will start to pick up on the structures of the tunes and what the keys sound like in relation to each other. You should in time with lots of immersion in the music, develop near perfect relative pitch, where you can hear a key change in a split second in most cases. It takes lots of practice, but if you love the music enough, hours will go by and it seems like fun, not work. You have to love it for no other reason than you just love it, it has to be a passion to be able to put in the time to get good at it and develop your ear.
Most players will not tell you a key, and they get it wrong sometimes if they are ear players especially. Or they say A, and it's A minor, or D, and the second part is Bm. The ones who do tell you, may only mention the first tune, because they don't know what they will play after. It's not for them to babysit us and if they do not tell us, it is not to be considered rude. They are there to just play and enjoy like eveyone else. Many though are nice enough, if you ask one to keep telling you, they usually don't mind helping out, but be alert to the fact that you may sometimes be steered wrong by accident.
In a noisy place my ear hears E when someone says A or vice versa. it confuses the daylights out of me when people tell me keys in most cases. I will go where they say,and it is at times not right or not complete info.
Sitting out after a change for a few bars while discretely hunting for a note that would indicate a key is a good idea. Test for G or D first. Your ear will likely first start to hear the differences between major or minor keys, then it will get more specific. Still, learn the session tunes common to the places you go, then the key will come easier, you'll remember them most likely.
It takes time, just like playing melody. It is as much a learning curve as with melody if done right. People think we play guitar because we failed as melody players or can't cut it. it's really a very complex instrument once you get into the depths of it. Most of the best backers will also not just chord, but toss in melody here and there, so learn the tunes....it's really fun and builds your ears up!
# Posted on October 4th 2007 by irisnevins
Re: backers that don't know the key
I think if you're backing and there's a key change into an unknown key / piece, my preference is to sit out for a whole section or whole verse of the tune (or even two), rather than come in after a random few bars. Of course, taking a break for one whole repeat of the tune does allow you more time to work out what the key is, and then you can gently try things out, quietly, until you're feeling confident that you've "got it". I know not everyone waits until the beginning of a distinct section, and often they just sort of "drift" in as they get the new key sorted out in their minds, but personally I like the effect when people join / leave at the beginning of whole sections.
# Posted on October 4th 2007 by Mark Harmer
Re: backers that don't know the key
I suppose it comes down to how seriously you take playing the instrument. As a bouzouki player you can back by strumming chords even on tunes you don't know if you recognise the key, but it won't be brilliant.
On the other hand, learn the tunes and you can start being a bouzouki player and play the instrument in whatever style you choose.
Have you got the Zan McLeod DVD Saint? That's a good place to start as he places emphasis on the tunes and teaches flatpicking.
# Posted on October 4th 2007 by Sugarfoot Jack
Re: backers that don't know the key
I have Argentina each way from the start Saint, I am happy enough.
And wouldn't it be much easier to say "what key is this in" at the start, instead of having to watch for all these nuances?
# Posted on October 4th 2007 by bodhran bliss
Re: backers that don't know the key
>People think we play guitar because we failed as melody players or can't cut it. it's really a very complex instrument
Ok, plenty of plectrum wielding strummers out there actually do know what they are doing and are damn good at it. I'll give you that. But those that continually mute the strings so heavy with your left hand that they don't actually sound any audible notes while you continue to strum away like we can't tell ... we're onto ya! We know who you are
# Posted on October 5th 2007 by monkey440
Re: backers that don't know the key
Oh.... monkey440... you mean they do that on purpose... strum muted strings.... and I thought they were just playing clumsy! At least the key is not an issue!
How many don't strum though and play fingerstyle, just wonder. We're in the minority most likely. One of the great geniuses of finger backing is Martin Carthy in my humble opinion. Not many do it.
# Posted on October 5th 2007 by irisnevins
Re: backers that don't know the key
bliss arg. will win the cup and france will beat nz
# Posted on October 5th 2007 by Saint
Re: backers that don't know the key
When I play back-up with my guitar, and I don't know the tune, I strum as if it is a march no matter what type of tune it is. I also play real loud so that I can hear me over those inconsiderate melody players so I can be sure all the nuances are there in my chord. Than I guess at the chord I should be on, which is easy because there are only three possibilities. It really makes me angry when a set changes keys, so I play the entire A part of the new tune before I start guessing what key we are in (sometimes I ask the melody player next to me) and what chord I should be on (only three possibilities). Only those sitting within 4 or 5 seats hear me, tho, because any further away they can only hear one of the other guitarists. Sometimes the other quitars are on the right key, but I find that if there are five or so guitars, the combination of several different keys and chords means that a few of the strummed notes are correct even if others aren't.
I especially enjoy using the guitar as a percussion instrument when all else fails. Strumming dead strings or just pounding them is really cool....makes me feel like I am contributing to something larger than myself, especially if I bob my head. I never let the nay Sayers discourage me cause backing is just so much fun.
One little talent that few seem to appreciate is my ability to play minor chords where majors are expected and vice-a-versa. It certainly adds diversity to tunes i.e. the Kesh as a dirge is haunting. the Ballydesmonds in majors makes them sound so alive.
Otherwise, I spend countless hours learning and practicing tunes (melody) on my whistles and mandolin.
# Posted on October 5th 2007 by feardearg
Re: backers that don't know the key
What about the clowns who move capo at every key change?
# Posted on October 5th 2007 by geoffwright
Re: backers that don't know the key
Feardearg - I KNOW you are just kidding but the number of w**kers that do exactly that annoys the hell out of me.
I usually call out the keys of the tunes I'm going to play to give the backers a heads up.
Some will do the three chord wonder stuff and that can be ok but the backer who actually bothers to learn the tunes and develops chord sequences to suit is the boy or girl for me.
We are really lucky over here in that we have a couple of really outstanding backers - JIm Byrne, John McGreevy, Darragh Murphy, Jim Rainey, to name a few.
# Posted on October 5th 2007 by breandan
Re: backers that don't know the key
What about the clowns who move capo at every key change?
# Posted on October 5th 2007 by geoffwright
I would say that's about 95% of them. As for clowns, well I am not sure I agree there. Reminds me of the time we saw Tommy Emmanuel in concert. When he produced a capo the non guitarists all muttered with false sneers "A capo? Can he play or not?"
# Posted on October 6th 2007 by bodhran bliss
Re: backers that don't know the key
Unfortunately, even knowing the tune itself wont automatically mean you will know the key, or chord pattern!
Knowing the notes will be a help but you will still need to figure out the chord pattern. This can be done by ear or paper and theory.
Generally i can get the key quickly, They are pretty limited.Em, Am G,D A. occasionally Bm.
Saint, get a tin whistle and start learning a few tunes..The fiddlers fake book has good chord settings. once you have tune and chords sorted for a bunch of tunes you will be well on the way.
Really, with this music there are no short cuts, no instant mastery! simply years of hard work and dedication. Ok and fun. but plenty of frustration too. !..... welcome
# Posted on October 20th 2007 by jig